Senate Special Committee on Aging holds hearing on AI-powered senior fraud

[0:00] deception is too many. We can choose differently. We can decide how AI shapes [0:06] our communities, our families, and the way we care for one another. This morning I [0:11] sent a letter to the leading AI companies, to the AI companion companies, [0:17] including OpenAI, Meta, and X, asking them to explain how they safeguard their [0:23] products for older adults and people with disabilities. I was glad to partner [0:28] with Senator Kelly on this very letter and I expect these companies to respond [0:32] promptly and fully. That letter is just one step. It can't be the last. We need a [0:39] bipartisan framework to govern AI, one that he's Pope Leo's counsel by putting [0:44] human dignity first and protecting the most vulnerable including older adults. [0:48] We must also confront the scams targeting our seniors head-on. I've introduced two [0:54] bipartisan bills to do exactly that. The National Strategy for Combating Scams Act [0:59] and the Guard Act. Both have federal agencies and law enforcement. Both give [1:05] federal agencies and law enforcement the tools they need to coordinate and to [1:11] protect consumers from fraud. I look forward to working with Chairman Scott and [1:15] my colleagues on this committee to ensure that our older adults are protected [1:19] from AI's harms and share in their benefits. Thank you, ranking member. I'd like to [1:25] welcome our witnesses today. They are here to help the committee understand the [1:28] landscape of AI-driven fraud and share their experiences dealing with these [1:32] types of scams. First, I'd like to recognize Dr. David Amron, an internationally [1:38] recognized surgeon and the founder and medical director of the Roxbury Institute. He [1:42] joins us today because he saw firsthand how this technology can be turned against [1:46] scammers. Scammers used AI to create a deepfake video of him endorsing a fake miracle cream, [1:52] a product he never made and never endorsed. Thank you for being here. You may begin your testimony. [1:57] Chairman Scott, ranking member Gillibrand and distinguished members of the Senate [2:05] Special Committee on Aging, thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. My [2:10] name is Dr. David Amron and I'm the founder and medical director of the Roxbury Institute in [2:14] Los Angeles, California and the founder and chair of the Lipidema Society. For more than three [2:19] decades, I have dedicated my career to treating patients with Lipidema, a chronic [2:24] and often misunderstood disease that affects millions of women worldwide. I am [2:30] widely recognized as the pioneer of Lipidema Surgery in North America and have [2:33] devoted my career to advancing treatment, educating patients, and advocating on [2:37] behalf of patients to help them obtain insurance coverage for their care. As [2:42] physicians, trust is the foundation of everything we do. Patients rely on us [2:48] during some of the most vulnerable moments of their lives. I have spent more than [2:51] three decades building that trust, yet scammers used artificial intelligence to [2:56] exploit it in a matter of moments. Although I know AI was rapidly evolving, I never [3:01] imagined how quickly it could be weaponized to deceive patients until it [3:05] happened to me. We first became aware of the scam in the summer of 2025, with [3:11] reports increasing significantly by early September. Patients began contacting the [3:16] Roxbury Institute after seeing a video that appeared to show me endorsing a so-called [3:21] miracle cream, miracle Lipidema cream. Many forwarded us the video, but by then some [3:27] had already purchased the product before realizing it was fraudulent, including [3:31] several of my own patients. The video was disturbingly realistic. Scammers used actual [3:38] footage from my YouTube channel and combined it with fully integrated AI generated [3:43] celebrity images and stolen media logos to create a polished advertisement that appeared entirely [3:59] legitimate. As soon as we recognized it as a coordinated deepfake, my team immediately issued public advisories across social media platforms to warn patients, clarify that neither Dr. Herbs nor I had any involvement, [4:03] and help our community recognize and report AI-generated medical impersonations. Our web developer and digital marketing strategist immediately began investigating the scam as soon as patients alerted us. Before taking action, he investigated the company behind the product, Svelta Vinastra, and quickly confirmed it was not a legitimate [4:22] medical entity. He reported every version of the advertisement to Meta, the fraudulent accounts responsible for publishing it, the domain registrars hosting websites, and the major search engines directing consumers to the scam. Yet each time one version was removed, another quickly appeared. This continued to be a [4:52] continued over the course of 11 days. Despite these persistent efforts, the scam kept on recurring. It became quickly clear that existing reporting scams, reporting them was not simply enough to stop a coordinated AI enabled fraud campaign. After exhausting every avenue available to us, we realized we needed to bring national attention to what was happening. We then reached out to major television networks because we believe public awareness might accomplish what traditional reporting mechanisms could not. [5:23] The Today Show responded, conducted its own investigation, and ultimately brought the scam to a national audience. The Today Show attempted to identify and contact the individuals behind Svelta Vinastra, just as we had. Like us, they found no legitimate company, no accountable representative, and no one willing to respond. [5:44] Although the fraudulent video was eventually removed, versions of the scam have since resurfaced, underscoring how persistent and difficult these AI enabled fraud schemes are to eliminate. [5:54] What disturbed me most was not that somebody had misused my image. It was knowing that scammers had used my name and my reputation to deceive the very people I have dedicated my career to helping and protecting. [6:05] The consequences extend far beyond financial loss. Patients may delay legitimate medical care for a progressive disease like Lipoedema, place their trust in unproven products and services, and allow the condition to worsen. [6:20] Perhaps most damaging, these scams erode the trust patients place in their physicians. Once that trust is broken, patients no longer know whom they can trust. [6:30] Artificial intelligence has fundamentally changed the landscape of fraud, given scammers the ability to convincingly impersonate trusted physicians, fabricate endorsements, and deceive patients on an unprecedented scale. [6:43] What happened to me is not an isolated incident. Physicians across the country discovering their images, voices, and professional reputations are being used without their knowledge or consent to promote products they have never evaluated, recommended, or many times even heard of. [6:59] The danger is clear. These scams put at risk and undermine the credibility of the medical profession. Older Americans are especially vulnerable because they often place tremendous trust in their physicians. [7:12] Many also rely on the internet, including social media and online search results, to learn about medical conditions, make them especially susceptible when fraudulent content appears to come from trusted medical professionals. [7:25] When they see a realistic online video of a trusted physician recommending a treatment, they have little reason to question its authenticity. [7:32] That is precisely what makes today's AI-generated deepfakes such a powerful tool for deception. [7:38] This problem is no longer theoretical. It is happening right now, and the consequences for patient safety, medical ethics, and the integrity of healthcare information are profound. [7:48] If we do not act, more older Americans and other vulnerable patients will become victims of increasingly sophisticated AI-enabled fraud. [7:55] I respectfully urge Congress to strengthen protections against AI-generated impersonation scams, improve accountability for those who create and distribute them, [8:04] and ensure our laws keep pace with technology that can so easily be used to exploit trust for financial gain. [8:11] Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I look forward to answering your questions. [8:17] Thank you very much. Sorry that happened to you. [8:19] Next, I'd like to introduce Deborah Del Mastro. [8:23] She is a Bay Area mother from Martinez, California, who became a public face of the growing AI voice cloning scam, [8:29] after criminals used artificial intelligence to mimic her daughter's voice. [8:33] She is also a San Francisco Bay Area singer, voice coach, actress, and musician, who has taught voice, drama, and trumpet for over three decades. [8:41] Sharing her voice and her love of music with her community. [8:44] Thank you for being here, and please begin your testimony. [8:46] Thank you. I am very honored to be able to come and share my story with you also. [8:52] I think my main goal is to let people know that these criminals have technology that we don't know about. [9:08] I call this the worst day of my life. It was May 14th, Thursday, May 14th. [9:16] The day started with a phone call in the morning. [9:18] My husband and I were at the breakfast table, and I answered a phone call from a local number. [9:27] I get a lot of my work that way, and I didn't think anything of it. [9:33] I answered and said hello, and a male voice said, hello, who is this? [9:38] And I said, who is this? [9:40] And he said, someone you need to talk to. I have your daughter. [9:44] Is your daughter prone to panic attacks? [9:48] Again, I'm sitting in my pajamas at the breakfast table. [9:53] And I said, my daughter? Yes. [9:56] Yes. And then he put on, I could hear commotion in the background. [10:00] He put on her voice. [10:04] Now I know her voice and not her, saying, I'm so sorry. [10:09] So I'm so sorry, mom. I'm so scared. I'm so sorry. [10:11] And crying, sobbing. [10:15] It was her voice. It was absolutely her voice. [10:18] And then he got back on and said that he had 10 pounds of cocaine in his trunk. [10:24] And my daughter saw a deal go down that she shouldn't have seen. [10:28] And that his boss was Mexican drug cartel. [10:31] And his boss told him to take her. [10:35] And he says his boss doesn't care who he kills. [10:40] And that he wants $20,000 for the return of my daughter. [10:44] Or he will sell her for what's between her legs. [10:47] And he will kill me, my family, and my daughter if I don't do this. [10:55] If I don't come up with the money. [10:58] Now we don't have that money. We just don't. [11:01] So I'm incredulous with my jaw dropped. [11:05] I couldn't speak to my husband. [11:07] I quickly got dressed. I have him on the phone the entire time. [11:12] And as I left the house I mouthed to my husband that she'd been kidnapped. [11:17] He didn't know where I was going. [11:21] Or what was going on at all. [11:24] But he could just tell it was serious. [11:27] This man was barking orders to me about having to have the money right away. [11:31] Or the boss will do something with her. [11:33] He told me to bring a phone charger. [11:35] And not to let my phone die. [11:37] Or else I would never see my daughter again. [11:39] He made demands for the next five and a half hours. [11:43] First to send $2,000 by Western Union to Mexico. [11:49] He wanted $2,500. I told him I didn't have it. [11:52] Which was really true. [11:54] Just $2,000. He had me go to a local Walmart. [11:57] And that's where I used MoneyGram to send $2,000 to Mexico. [12:03] I took a picture of it and texted him the receipt as he asked. [12:08] And then he told me there was a problem with it. [12:11] And that there was an error and I needed to send the money again. [12:14] I told him I did not have the money. [12:16] And he said that I would be reimbursed. [12:21] It would be fine. Just send it again. [12:23] And I said I did not have it. [12:25] He wanted another $500. I had it in the account. [12:28] So I said alright. [12:30] And I went to my car and found that in my panic I had locked my keys in the car. [12:34] Then I had to call my husband to come pick me up which also brought his bank accounts into play. [12:41] And my husband drove us around with his phone on GPS and my phone on with this person listening to every moment of it. [12:53] He ran us around to a bunch of different places, 20 miles away to another Walmart and to Martinez twice. [13:07] We were on the phone with this awful man the entire time listening for every sound, asking where I was, what was going on if I was silent, threatening my family's lives and telling me that he could sell my daughter right now. [13:18] I tried our local Safeway to send it. It wouldn't work. [13:23] Went to Walgreens. He told me not to speak during the entire time I was in any store doing these payments. [13:31] And to leave the phone on so he could hear everything that happened. [13:34] Again, I took pictures of the receipts and texted him now a different number. [13:39] All the time he was threatening if I didn't hurry, there was going to be problems. [13:43] Now he said he was going to drop my daughter off at the first place, then he was going to drop her in another place, then he was going to drop her off in another place. [13:51] As we were driving to different places and sending money, we sent $5,400 altogether in four different transactions. [14:05] When it was over, it was about five and a half hours. [14:09] By the time they probably figured that we didn't have any more money to give them, he ended it. [14:16] He said, it's over. We were now back 20 miles away at another Walmart. [14:20] And he said that he had released my daughter at the front of the Walmart and we were there. [14:28] And he said, go, go get her, go pick her up or call her and hung up. [14:34] I jumped out of the car. She was not there. I was in a total panic. [14:39] And then I called her and she answered the phone and said, hi, mom, what's going on? [14:46] And I was never so happy in my life to be scammed, so relieved and furious that we'd fallen for this. [14:57] I heard her twice. I had to be silent with even in the car driving. [15:04] There was one time I actually muted the phone so I could speak to my husband and he started screaming not to do any fuzz, no funny business or I'd never see her again. [15:12] He threatened to harm us and my daughter saying that he had kids and he would kill anyone that got in the way if his kids were at risk. [15:20] And his boss didn't care about anyone. [15:22] He talked many times how he would sell Sarah for $20,000 or she could pay her way in other ways hinting that she would be sex trafficked. [15:31] But he was doing us a favor because we were respectful of him. [15:36] He had me talk with Sarah again. I asked many times if I could speak to my daughter to make sure she was okay. [15:41] He had me speak to her again after we had sent, I think, the third, third amount. [15:48] And he told me exactly what I was to say to her. He said, tell her that this nightmare is almost over. [15:53] You're going to pick her up as possible. I did that. I said exactly that. [15:58] And my daughter's voice said, I'm so sorry, mom. I love you. [16:03] After that, another man's voice came on who was much more hard, much more harsh, the enforcer, [16:13] who threatened harm to us and Sarah if we didn't come up with more money. [16:18] And that's when we sent another $1,200. It was the last of our available accessible money. [16:24] It was the worst day of my life and my husband too. [16:28] Yeah, some people are just so broken. [16:33] I'm a Navy veteran. [16:35] I am usually very, very calm and collected in the face of crisis. [16:41] I always say I'm the person that runs to the fire, not away from it. [16:45] And I was totally, totally convinced that this was my daughter's voice. [16:56] Yeah, you know, it's the perfect scam. [17:00] It's the perfect scam to talk to family and tell them that you're going to kill them, sell them. [17:06] You know, it's the perfect scam because you're willing to do anything to get your kids, get your daughter back. [17:14] I spent most of that time in silence with my husband driving back and forth just trying to figure out how he's going to help her get through her life after an event like this. [17:25] And thank God it was a scam. Thank God it was a scam. [17:30] But I had no idea that this was a possibility that that AI could clone the voice. [17:38] Now, when I call my daughter, both my kids work in IT. [17:41] My daughter said, Mom, that was an AI clone of my voice. [17:46] She knew it immediately. [17:47] So I didn't know. [17:48] So there needs to be awareness about this and there needs to be guardrails. [17:54] We need to find out how to how to protect those of us who don't know about this. [18:01] Thank you. [18:04] Thank you for letting me testify. [18:05] I appreciate it. [18:06] Yes. [18:11] Yes. [18:13] And we're sorry this have ever happened to you. [18:15] So thank you. [18:16] Next, I'd like to introduce Paul Benda. [18:19] He's the executive vice president for risk, fraud and cybersecurity at the American Bankers Association, [18:24] where he leads the association's initiatives in fraud, cybersecurity, physical security, and information security, [18:30] practices, and chairs the ABA Fraud Coordination Group. [18:33] Thank you for being here. [18:34] Please begin your testimony. [18:36] Chairman Scott, Ranking Member Gillibrand, and members of the committee, [18:40] thank you for the opportunity to testify. [18:41] And I'm so sorry what you went through. [18:43] I think it proves the point why we're here today. [18:46] We're all here to protect Americans from these, as you said, Senator Thugs, [18:49] these despicable people doing these things. [18:52] The central point of my testimony is straightforward. [18:54] Generative AI is not replacing traditional scams. [18:57] It is industrializing them. [18:58] Generative AI is making impersonation dramatically easier and more convincing. [19:02] With very little technical skill, a criminal can mimic someone a victim trusts [19:06] and use personal information gathered online to make the scam feel authentic. [19:10] What once required significant time, skill, and resources can now be done quickly, cheaply, and at scale. [19:17] These crimes do not succeed because older Americans are unsophisticated. [19:20] They succeed because professional criminals are very good at exploiting trust, fear, urgency, and authority. [19:25] AI simply gives them more powerful tools to do that. [19:28] A recent FBI warning shows how this threat is evolving. [19:31] The FBI reported that criminals are using AI-generated videos of senior FBI officials, [19:36] fake social media profiles, and spoofed government websites to impersonate the Internet Crime Complaint Center and target prior victims. [19:43] In other words, the promise to recover stolen money becomes the mechanism for stealing even more. [19:48] Bank impersonation scams are another serious example. [19:52] Just last week, the FCC warned they produced the highest losses of any impersonation scam category and stressed one rule. [19:58] Banks will never ask you to move money to protect it. [20:00] Additionally, a survey of 14 large banks found identified bank impersonation scams rose 150% from 2024 to 2025. [20:10] The threat is growing rapidly, and much of the deception occurs before a bank ever sees the transaction. [20:15] Banks are responding aggressively. [20:18] They are using AI and advanced analytics to recognize behavior that may indicate fraud and to intervene before money leaves an account. [20:24] But technology is only part of the defense. [20:26] A trained banker may notice that a long-time customer is suddenly trying to send a large payment while appearing frightened, secretive, or coached by someone on the phone. [20:34] In those moments, human judgment and the relationship between banker and customer can be just as important as any algorithm. [20:42] Education is equally critical. [20:44] More than 2,500 banks have participated in the ABA Foundation's Safe Banking for Seniors program. [20:49] And the ABA and FBI have developed materials specifically addressing deepfake scams. [20:54] We are also expanding training to help bankers intervene when a customer has been drawn deeply into a scammer's story. [21:00] For consumers, the answer is not to become experts at spotting deepfakes. [21:05] The better approach is to change how we react to unexpected requests for money. [21:09] Seniors should pause before acting. [21:10] Verify the story through a separate trusted channel. [21:13] Families should consider establishing a private password for real emergencies. [21:18] And remember, if it's a secret, it's a scam. [21:21] Criminals depend on urgency and isolation. [21:23] They do not want the victim talking to a family member, a banker, or law enforcement. [21:27] We also need to recognize where in the scam lifecycle banks enter the picture. [21:35] We train consumers not to send money to someone they do not know and trust. [21:38] The problem is that by the time they're ready to send the money, they often believe they know and trust the person on the other end. [21:44] Generative AI is making it much easier for criminals to manufacture that trust. [21:49] Increasingly accessible tools can alter a scammer's appearance in real-time video conversation to match the persona they are impersonating. [21:56] AI can clone voices and translate conversations in real-time, allowing criminals halfway around the world to communicate convincingly with an American victim. [22:04] By the time the bank sees the payment, that relationship may have been developing for days, weeks, or even months through telecommunication networks, social media, online advertising, or messaging platforms. [22:14] The victim is no longer sending money to a stranger. In their mind, they are sending money to someone they know and trust. [22:21] Banks will continue to intervene where we can, but responsibility has to extend upstream to the telecommunications and online platforms where the impersonation begins and trust is manufactured. [22:31] The best fraud prevention is to stop the criminal from reaching and deceiving the victim in the first place. [22:36] My written testimony lays out a broad policy agenda. We need clear national leadership, which is why ABA is proposing a National Office for Scam and Fraud Prevention. [22:45] We urge Congress to enact the Scam Act, led by Senators Gallego and Moreno, so online platforms have meaningful obligations to verify advertisers and rapidly respond to fraudulent ads. [22:56] Stronger telecom safeguards are needed to keep criminals off calling networks and restore trust in caller ID. [23:01] And federal support can help state and local authorities build specialized financial crime capacity. [23:08] Older Americans should not be expected to distinguish on their own and in real time between a loved one and a cloned voice. [23:14] Or between their bank and a criminal using their bank's name and telephone number. [23:17] Banks will continue investing, educating, intervening, and helping victims recover. [23:22] But durable progress requires every part of the scam ecosystem to help prevent the deception before the victims send money. [23:29] Thank you, and I look forward to your questions. [23:32] Thank you, Mr. Bend. [23:34] Next, I'd like to introduce Matthew Ferraro. [23:36] He's a partner in Crowell and Moreno's Privacy and Cybersecurity Group, where he helps clients address complex regulatory matters at the intersection of advanced technology, national security, and crisis management. [23:48] Thank you for being here, and please begin your testimony. [23:50] Chairman Scott, Ranking Member Gillibrand, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today on this critical issue. [23:58] My name is Matthew F. Ferraro. I'm a partner at the law firm Crowell & Moreno, where I counsel on artificial intelligence, cybersecurity, and regulation. [24:06] I also previously served in government, most recently as Senior Counselor for Cybersecurity and Emerging Technology to the Secretary of Homeland Security, and previously as a U.S. Intelligence Officer. [24:17] I have been working on the policy and legal issues related to AI-generated media or deepfakes since 2019. [24:25] I should say I appear today in my personal capacity. My views do not represent those of my firm or any of my clients. [24:31] Let me begin with a rhetorical question. [24:34] How often today have you relied upon the voice of a loved one or the image of a trusted figure before sharing something of value? [24:41] Perhaps your daughter called from college this morning to ask for a few hundred dollars, and you sent it. [24:46] Maybe you had a video call with a tech support worker and shared your account information. [24:51] Tonight, you may scroll through social media and see a video of a doctor endorsing an herbal supplement and decide to purchase it. [24:58] Now consider, what if those representations were all fake? [25:03] Not your daughter, not the technician, not a doctor, but voices and images forged by AI. [25:10] Welcome to the world of deepfakes. It is a world we've been living in for several years, where AI can create realistic audio, images and videos that appear true to life, but are forgeries. [25:22] Nearly anyone can access this technology, often for free, and their creations can be sent around the world instantly. [25:29] While AI-generated media has legitimate creative uses, deepfakes can supercharge scams and cyber frauds, especially those targeting senior citizens. [25:40] In the first quarter of 2025 alone, financial losses from deepfake-enabled fraud exceeded $200 million, according to an industry report. [25:49] Deloitte projects that generative AI could enable fraud losses to reach $40 billion in the United States alone by 2027. [25:57] Older adults bear a disproportionate burden. [26:01] They are five times more likely to lose money in a scam than younger people. [26:06] And according to the AARP, the top digital risk for seniors is scams and frauds. [26:13] The forms these scams take are varied. [26:15] For example, fraudsters use AI to generate fake ads featuring the likenesses of celebrities and trusted professionals to sell a range of goods, from cryptocurrency to medical cures, as we've heard. [26:27] Scammers have also cloned the voices of family members telling their victims their loved ones have been kidnapped and demanding ransom, as Ms. Del Master testified so powerfully to a few minutes ago. [26:39] And romance scammers can use AI-generated imagery to build ersatz emotional relationships with victims before stealing their money and their personal information. [26:49] So what can we do about it? I offer three recommendations. [26:53] First, we must prioritize education and awareness for all digital media consumers, especially seniors. [27:01] We should deliver that education through trusted community channels, like senior centers, physicians, community groups, and houses of worship. [27:09] We must cultivate the appropriate level of skepticism and of discernment. [27:14] Given the deluge of AI-generated media that has and will come, the surest defender against deepfake dupes lies between our ears. [27:23] Second, we should seek greater coordination across federal and state agencies and with industry. [27:29] Existing laws already give regulators meaningful tools. [27:32] The principle applies. [27:34] If it is illegal without AI, it is illegal with AI. [27:38] Better knowledge sharing among policymakers, law enforcement, and industry can promote efficiency, improve threat mitigation, and bolster effective enforcement. [27:48] And third, we should invest in technology. [27:52] We should promote the use of both AI detection tools and provenance technology that tags media as human-created or AI-generated. [28:01] Integrating those tools into our daily lives, much as we do with email spam filters, can help all Americans, and especially seniors, [28:08] tell facts from fakes. [28:13] I want to close on this note. [28:16] We should not succumb to cynicism. [28:19] New technologies married to ancient vices require responses. [28:23] But they should neither slake our appetite for innovation and creativity, nor extinguish our faith that we can, with the right steps, navigate the digital world with confidence. [28:34] Thank you. I look forward to your questions. [28:36] Thank you. Now I'd like to recognize Ranking Member Gillibrand to introduce the next witness. [28:41] Thank you, Chairman Scott. [28:42] I want to move to introduce Ben Winters. [28:44] Mr. Winters is the Director of AI and Privacy at the Consumer Federation of America, where he leads CFA's advocacy efforts regarding data privacy and AI to advocate for consumers. [28:56] Previously, Mr. Winters worked as an attorney advisor for the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice and Senior Counsel at the Electronic Privacy Information Center. [29:05] You may begin. [29:06] Thanks. [29:08] Good afternoon, Chair Scott, Ranking Member Gillibrand, and members of the committee. [29:12] Thanks for the opportunity to talk to you today. [29:14] I'm Ben Winters, Director of AI and Privacy at the Consumer Federation of America, a nonprofit membership organization serving consumers since 1968. [29:22] Online scam losses have been at an unacceptable rate for years, but have exploded since Senator of AI became commercially available and aggressively marketed in 2023. [29:33] Losses reported to the FBI have ballooned from $3.5 billion in 2019 to $12.5 billion in 2023 to $21 billion last year in 2025. [29:44] Again, that is just to the FBI, that is just who reported, and that is just online scams. [29:50] CFA estimates in our True Costs of Scams report that the real number is closer to $150 billion lost just last year with Americans over 60 losing $55 billion. [30:00] Given this prevalence and scale, it's not surprising that older Americans describe scams as unavoidable and that it takes just one minute of distraction to fall victim. [30:09] Generative AI is not the sole cause of rising scam losses, but it is right now a scammer's dream. [30:16] It makes scams easier, more effective, and harder to trace. [30:20] This is just one part of multiple trend lines converging to this record losses. [30:25] AI companies that aggressively push tools with no regard for harm, an executive branch that refuses to hold tech companies accountable, [30:32] and confusion and uncertainty around healthcare eligibility, benefits, and economic security that scammers are exploiting in real time. [30:39] Scammed content generated by AI systems are just one part of the puzzle. [30:43] Unregulated and under-regulated technology is pervasive across the entire flow of how a scam is created, targeted, delivered, and carried out. [30:52] CFA calls this the scam stack. [30:54] So this is everything from data brokers that sell detailed personal data, enabling hyper-targeted scams based on sensitive characteristics like, [31:01] and this is a real example, lists of people battling Alzheimer's. [31:04] This goes to mass communication methods like robo-texters, robo-callers, and social media companies like Facebook through ads and feeds that allow obvious scam content to remain despite having the technology detected. [31:16] This goes to payment platforms, banks, and crypto wallet providers that let the money go and allow obfuscation of the chain of custody. [31:24] And lastly, reporting mechanisms on phones and social platforms that are ineffective, inconsistent, buggy, and disconnected from other reporting mechanisms like at the government agencies who can do enforcement. [31:35] My written testimony goes into further detail about how generative AI enables elder fraud at each level of that scam stack and the harm caused by its unchecked growth. [31:43] But it's not just scams. [31:45] AI systems like chatbots mislead by pretending to be real, sounding authoritative, trying to get you hooked, or giving dangerous medical or financial advice, [31:54] and are also used by third parties to flood the information ecosystem with convincing falsehoods. [31:59] That matters especially for older adults, isolated people, and those under health or financial stress. [32:05] At scale, AI-generated misinformation erodes trust in everything people see and hear. [32:09] It's hard to avoid using these online platforms, and scammy content, scams, and falsehoods fueled by AI are hurting us all. [32:16] I want to be clear that the devastating deception we're seeing is not a result of technological ineptitude for older users, [32:23] the exclusive domain of the dark web or overseas scam compounds, but rather a crisis emboldened by the biggest tech companies we know, [32:30] paired with a failure to rein them in. [32:32] This is not an issue of personal responsibility, but something Congress is uniquely positioned to address. [32:37] My written testimony details more than a dozen legislative and oversight recommendations with specific bills that have already been introduced, [32:43] but I want to spend a few minutes talking about that today. [32:46] A few of them, sorry. [32:47] So one, Congress should hold platforms accountable for spreading, delivering, and targeting scams [32:53] by passing a bill like the Scam Act introduced by Senators Moreno and Gallego. [32:57] It should pass comprehensive data privacy laws, data minimization, and bans on the sale of sensitive data [33:03] so it's no longer allowed to be able to sell lists of people battling Alzheimer's for targeting. [33:09] It should pass bills improving the reporting and statistics status quo with a bill like Report Scams.gov Act [33:15] by Chair Scott and Senator Hassan, but would recommend improving that to require platform participation. [33:22] It is outrageous how complicated the answer is to what do I do when I've been scammed, [33:26] and reject any provisions that prohibit states from regulating technology or ones being pushed by tech companies right now [33:31] to limit their liability. [33:33] Legislation must be paired with sustained oversight of enforcement agencies like the FTC, CFPB, and FBI [33:39] to ensure key authorities are focused on collaboration, investigation, and choking out the scam upstream, [33:45] not just chasing individual scammers after the fact. [33:48] There is no silver bullet for fixing this crisis, but continued inaction only hurts Americans. [33:53] Thank you again for the opportunity to testify, and I'm happy to answer any questions. [33:57] Thanks for being here. [33:59] I bet your last job was interesting too. [34:02] Fascinating what they do. [34:04] Okay, Senator Tuberville, would you like to start? [34:06] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [34:08] We got a mess. [34:10] We know it. [34:12] You know, technology would bring us more and more every day. [34:16] We've heard the problems. [34:18] My solution is education. [34:22] At a young age, baby boomers are in trouble because we're all going to get scammed one way or another, [34:30] and not just domestically, but internationally. [34:33] I mean, we're going, it's big time. [34:35] I hear a lot of problems with that. [34:37] So, Mr. Ferraro, how do we fix this? [34:40] We got the problem. [34:41] Give us a solution. [34:43] I'm going to ask everybody this, so get your solution. [34:45] Ready. [34:46] Senator, there is no silver bullet, as Mr. Winters said, but I do think that education is very powerful, [34:52] and if you're looking for an example, I would point the committee to the example of Finland, [34:58] which has been very aggressive in teaching both young and old, this is in my written testimony, [35:04] about both disinformation more broadly, but synthetic media particularly, [35:09] and they've found that it works, that you can actually instruct people to be on the lookout for false media, [35:15] to, as Mr. Benda said, pause before you send any money, double-check, [35:21] do all the things that we should do before we make any rash decisions, [35:25] and so I do think education is quite important. [35:28] As I said, I think from a government perspective, interagency cooperation is key here. [35:33] This is an area where there isn't now a quarterback, to use a metaphor, in the government on these issues, [35:43] and I think that is something that the committee might want to consider, [35:47] and I know that there are some bills pending before the committee on those issues, [35:50] and third, as I mentioned in my testimony, I think the technology piece is important as well. [35:54] I mean, just draw the analysis, or the analogy rather, to email spam. [35:58] You receive thousands of pieces of spam every day, you just don't happen to see them, [36:03] because they're filtered out by spam filters. [36:05] One could imagine a situation where similar technology operates in the background on your browser, [36:10] or on your phone, to either tag or remove AI-generated media, [36:15] and the technology largely exists now, which is a matter of integrating it, so I would offer those. [36:21] Well, if you do anything in life, you know, the big thing is when you get a manual, [36:27] you get ethics with it first, and the same thing with AI. [36:31] We have to teach our kids ethics. [36:33] Again, a lot of us are lost and gone, but our young kids can learn it. [36:38] Mr. Benda, you have worked for DHS and DOW. [36:43] Give us your solution. [36:45] I have, sir. [36:46] So I think you're right, education is a key pillar. [36:48] I think you start out young. [36:49] I think having a national campaign on how to fight AI deepfakes, [36:52] how to fight scams and fraud is important. [36:54] ABA runs financial literacy programs for children. [36:57] Integrating the AI threat into that and scam threat into that is something that we're looking at doing. [37:01] I think the national campaign could address people of all ages, [37:04] and I have hope for boomers, sir. [37:06] I have some boomers that I love, my mother-in-law in one particular. [37:09] And I think the focus needs to be on also safe banking for seniors. [37:13] So how do we get the message to them and channels that they respect and they use, [37:16] whether it's directly from a banker or from people they trust. [37:19] And the other piece I would point to is we have to enable and stop the tech companies [37:24] from allowing the impersonation that happens out there. [37:26] You should be able to trust what's on your call or ID. [37:28] If you put a name and number on there, the telecom should be held accountable if it's not the right person calling. [37:33] The social media platforms need to stop the impersonation scams that are out there. [37:36] They shouldn't be allowed to post the videos that the good doctor talked about. [37:39] So those types of things, I think, need more controls, [37:42] and I think there's some legislative solutions that are out there. [37:44] Yeah. [37:45] Ms. Mastrow, I feel your pain. [37:49] My mother-in-law got scammed, and this is internationally. [37:52] She got a call from my granddaughter. [37:54] She was in Europe. [37:56] Please send $10,000. [37:57] I need it bad. [37:58] I'm broke. [37:59] I got to get out of this situation. [38:01] She sent it. [38:02] She sent it. [38:04] She wasn't in trouble other than the fact she just needed the money. [38:07] Sounded just like her. [38:08] What kind of legislation do you think we need to do for something like this? [38:11] Have you talked to anybody since your debacle? [38:14] I have not spoken to any legislators until right now. [38:21] I have spoken to a few experts in the field, though, [38:26] and I believe that there are plenty of courses and education out there at how to use AI, [38:37] and that is something you see on social media all the time, those ads. [38:41] Take this class, learn how to use it. [38:44] There's nothing out there on how to protect yourself from AI. [38:49] There's nothing out there. [38:50] So that needs to happen. [38:52] We need to know how to recognize it and how to protect ourselves from it, [38:57] besides having a safe word, not answering the phone, [39:01] you know, all the things that everybody immediately goes to. [39:05] There's got to be an awareness that for senior citizens, certainly, [39:16] you know, all of us don't know how to hand the remote to the kids to change things. [39:23] I mean, we need to be aware. [39:25] If I had been aware that my daughter's voice could possibly be an AI clone, [39:32] I would have responded differently, but I did not know. [39:36] So I think we need, education is key, is key, and awareness is key. [39:42] Just think about, we're just now beginning AI. [39:44] Just think of how much more they're going to be able to fool people, [39:48] and it's going to get worse and worse. [39:50] Thank you very much. [39:51] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [39:55] Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for having this hearing. [40:01] As I think all of us know, AI has a very real potential of changing everything about our lives. [40:08] It's changing how we work, how we make decisions, how entire industries are operating, [40:16] reshaping our economy, energy systems, national security. [40:20] It's affecting people's daily lives. [40:23] And while it brings enormous opportunity, it also introduces risk that demands some serious oversight. [40:30] And that's why we're here today. [40:34] Over the past year, I've been thinking a lot about how we make AI work for all Americans, [40:40] not just a few big companies. [40:43] And that's what led me last year to put out a roadmap called AI for America. [40:50] And the ideas behind the roadmap are pretty simple. [40:54] And that is, if AI is going to transform our economy, [40:57] we need to have a real plan to make sure Americans aren't left behind, [41:01] and that the technology is developed and used responsibly. [41:06] And here's the thing, these systems are evolving very quickly, [41:10] even just quickly in the last few weeks. [41:13] And there's a lot that we don't know, [41:16] and there's a lot that the developers themselves don't know [41:20] about what some of these products are capable of. [41:24] Older Americans need to be included in this conversation [41:28] and not treat it as just some afterthought [41:31] as these products are developed and deployed. [41:34] About one in five Arizonans in my state are over the age of 65. [41:39] And when I hear from seniors in my state, [41:41] they tell me they're concerned about what is real and what isn't real. [41:46] Miss Del Mastro, you certainly have experienced that, [41:51] and I'm so sorry for what happened to you and your family. [41:56] Seniors are seeing more convincing phishing scams and AI-generated scams [42:01] and other forms of online fraud. [42:03] And sometimes people don't know if they're talking to a bot or a real person. [42:07] Just yesterday, I was on the phone with my cable company. [42:14] I called and I was convinced that this was an artificial person. [42:19] And I still think it may have been. [42:21] It may have been augmented by a real person. [42:23] And when I started questioning whether or not the person was real, [42:26] it became the real person. [42:28] So I think there are systems where one person, [42:31] where you can have the AI overlaid and there's somebody monitoring. [42:34] Anyway, we sorted it out. [42:36] I got the real person eventually. [42:39] So these are real fair concerns and it affects everybody. [42:42] I share them. [42:43] And I do spend, in my former career, [42:46] as somebody who used a lot of technology. [42:49] So last week I introduced legislation with Senator Justice [42:56] called the Senior Chatbot Protection Act. [42:59] This bill will require companies to clearly disclose when consumers [43:03] are interacting with AI. [43:05] And safeguard sensitive conversations [43:09] and address deceptive design practices in their products [43:12] that put people at risk. [43:14] We want to help people make informed decisions [43:17] while supporting, not replacing human judgment [43:21] and trusted relationships. [43:23] So today, Ranking Member Gillibrand and I are asking [43:26] the leading AI companies directly, [43:28] how are you making sure your products are safe for older adults? [43:32] And are you designing products with them in mind? [43:36] And do you even know how many older adults are using your products? [43:42] And if we want to make sure AI will help rather than harm, [43:47] we need to know about, you know, who's using it, [43:50] how they're using it and how it reacts in the real world. [43:53] So that's the purpose of my Bipartisan Aging with AI Act, [43:59] which the chairman mentioned, [44:02] which we introduced, Chairman Scott and I in June. [44:06] It will help us build the evidence we need [44:08] by supporting research into how seniors use AI [44:11] and its risks and benefits. [44:14] And we have a lot of work ahead of us. [44:16] AI companies have a responsibility to make their products safe, [44:20] to be honest about their limitations, [44:23] and protect our constituents who use them. [44:26] And Congress has a responsibility to set clear rules, [44:29] demand accountability from tech companies, [44:32] and make decisions based on science, data, and facts. [44:36] We have an opportunity to get ahead of these problems. [44:40] We often do not here in Congress, but we should, [44:45] and we have to in this case, [44:47] because the window is not going to stay open forever on this. [44:51] We got to get this right now. [44:53] So in my remaining time, which I have none, [44:57] maybe the chairman could give me another 45 seconds. [45:00] Mr. Winters, based on the harms you've seen [45:03] and talked about during your testimony, [45:05] how would the protections in the Senior Chatbot Protection Act [45:08] make AI chatbots and voice assistance safer for older Americans? [45:13] And is it important for Congress to do this? [45:15] Yeah, thank you, Senator, for the question. [45:18] I think that some of the provisions in that bill [45:21] are extraordinarily useful, right? [45:24] As you mentioned, it's nonsense to not be able to feel confident [45:28] that you're actually talking to a person or not, right? [45:30] So that feels like an absolute baseline thing we can do. [45:34] And we can also sort of integrate significant restrictions [45:38] on the way the chatbots are actually sort of looking to the user, right? [45:43] To make it more obvious that it is a chatbot, [45:45] to make it clear what the choices from those companies are. [45:49] I think one thing, not to take up too much time, [45:51] that I want to underline is that the chatbot products especially are products. [45:55] They're tech companies have choices about what gets spit out by those chatbots, [46:00] how they are built, and sort of how you interact with them. [46:04] So I think that there are a number of pieces of legislation, [46:06] including the Senior Chatbot Protection Act, [46:08] that would be absolutely a positive step forward [46:11] in making sure those tech companies are pulling their weight and helping air. [46:15] Thank you. [46:18] Thank you, Senator Kelly. [46:19] Dr. Amron, you discovered a deep-fake video used in your face and voice [46:23] to sell a product you never made and never endorsed. [46:25] Can you walk through what you had to do to report it [46:28] and what the process of trying to get it down was like? [46:31] Yeah. [46:32] It was not easy and it continued to go on. [46:36] I'm going to have to refer back to some notes I have by my team that got involved with this. [46:40] But there was a lot of effort that went in to try to get this down, [46:45] putting pressure on Meta to respond. [46:50] And it took 11 days to get a response back from them. [46:55] The team never got transparency in terms of answers and any timeline and things like that. [47:03] It was a very non-transparent process with it. [47:07] There was no meaningful follow-up to get the Facebook ads down. [47:13] The responses we got back were very generic. [47:16] And you never actually knew that you were actually communicating with a real human being with this. [47:23] So we eventually got at least the Meta ads down in 11 days. [47:30] The websites continued to be up there. [47:32] But then it reappeared weeks and months later again. [47:36] So it's just a perpetuating process. [47:38] All right. Thank you. [47:40] Ms. Del Mastro, what did you do immediately after realizing that you had been scammed? [47:44] Were you able to recover any of the funds that were lost? [47:46] How did losing those funds affect you and your husband's financial situation? [47:50] Well, thank you. [47:53] We are senior citizens living on Social Security and our gigs that we do. [48:00] So it affected us greatly. [48:03] It was all of our available, accessible money. [48:06] It was all of it. [48:08] What happened immediately, as I said, my daughter works in AI. [48:16] When I called her, she told me that's what probably had happened, [48:20] that it was an AI clone of her voice. [48:23] After that, we went to the police, the local police. [48:30] And the next morning, when I was a little calmer, I posted on social media. [48:36] I posted our experience on Facebook and said, [48:40] let this be a warning to all of my friends and fans and everyone, [48:47] that these criminals have high-tech capability now. [48:51] So forgive me. [48:53] I'm still completely traumatized by this. [49:02] It's been a couple of months. [49:03] Take your time. [49:04] It just, yeah. [49:05] So what happened is, if you talk to your daughter, [49:09] so then the next step is you're probably, you're happy she's fine. [49:14] Yes. [49:15] But you're furious that you lost all your life savings. [49:18] Yes. [49:19] Because you basically lost all your life savings. [49:20] Yes. [49:21] So did you go, you called the police department or you went down there? [49:24] We went to the police department. [49:25] When my husband and I went home, my daughter got off work and came over. [49:30] And you know, I hugged her and sobbed for a while. [49:33] And then we went to the local police office and reported it right away. [49:40] Did they act like they would even be able to help you? [49:43] You know, the officer, the detective in charge that we spoke to said that [49:50] they see these by the hundreds. [49:52] They see these kinds of things all the time. [49:55] And that probably it was out of, out of the country, [49:58] a call center out of the country. [50:00] And that the money was definitely gone. [50:04] The money was gone. [50:05] And they. [50:06] You sent the money by. [50:07] Money Graham and Western Union both. [50:10] And so, and there was no, even though you had a record of it, they. [50:14] Cash pickup within 10 minutes, anywhere in Mexico. [50:18] That's what these all were. [50:21] So that money was gone by the time we got off the phone. [50:24] No ability. [50:25] And they take, they take no responsibility. [50:27] Absolutely. [50:28] Absolutely. [50:29] But you know, you, when you go to do these transactions, there are signs everywhere that tell you, you know, don't, you know, if you think this is a fraud, don't do it. [50:40] However, you have someone on the phone with you right here saying, here's, you know, don't, don't speak to them. [50:48] Discreet, you know, you've got it right there. [50:50] Yeah. [50:51] So it's, it's, it's a scare tactic. [50:55] It's absolutely terrifying. [50:57] You know, because again, when you hear, I mean, how, how we understand when, when you answer the phone and you hear someone's voice, you know, that person by their voice. [51:10] So. [51:12] And you get your guard down. [51:13] Right. [51:14] It's. [51:15] So if you have an AI clone of a loved one's voice, you don't know, you don't know anymore. [51:23] Um, yeah, it, it, like I said, it, it's, it's terrifying. [51:29] And during the whole process, you were just out trying to solve the problem. [51:32] Yes. [51:33] He just, you, they, they, they had gotten you. [51:36] Absolutely. [51:37] Hook, line, sinker. [51:38] Five and a half hours. [51:40] Yes. [51:42] Yes. [51:43] I was bound and determined to get my daughter back one way or another. [51:47] I was bound and determined. [51:48] Like we all would. [51:49] Yeah. [51:50] Right. [51:52] Yeah, absolutely. [51:54] I said, it's a perfect scam. [51:55] It's an old scam with new technology, you know, and we just need to know that this is out here. [52:04] Um, after, after it happened, uh, and I posted it, I had many people that are friends and fans and family that sent me money to help replace the money. [52:15] And they said, send a go, do a go fund me. [52:17] I did a go fund me. [52:18] I set it up a couple of days later, just for the amount of what we lost. [52:22] The people at go fund me read the, um, read my story and asked if I could, if the local media could contact me. [52:31] And that's why I'm here today because local media, I, I was, uh, I was, uh, interviewed by, uh, a station where the actual broadcaster who interviewed me had an AI fraud like a month and a half before that with a video of her daughter asking for money. [52:56] Now her daughter was next door, so she knew it was a fraud, but they had a video of her daughter. [53:03] Yeah. [53:05] It's, it's, it's, uh, it's frightening. [53:07] It's really frightening. [53:08] So were you, were you able to raise the money on go fund? [53:11] Yes. [53:12] Isn't that nice? [53:13] People, there's a lot of wonderful people in the world, right? [53:14] Yeah, they are. [53:15] I mean, I have a very, very wonderful supportive community, uh, of friends and fans and family. [53:21] It's, it's, I'm very blessed in that way. [53:24] There's a lot of good people out there. [53:25] Yeah, there certainly are. [53:26] There's evil people out there, but there's some good people. [53:28] And we need to protect all of them. [53:30] Yeah. [53:31] I agree. [53:32] Okay. [53:33] Senator Gillibrand. [53:36] Senator Alsa-Brooks, I'm going to give you my time, but I'll give you a minute to get set up. [53:41] So, okay, then go, you can go ahead then. [53:44] Thank you so much to, uh, Chair Scott and Ranking Member Gillibrand, uh, for hosting today's hearing. [53:54] And I want to thank you as well to, uh, all of our witnesses, uh, for being present. [53:58] There's an old warning that many of us learn from our parents, and it goes like this. [54:03] If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is. [54:06] Uh, but that warning assumes that we recognize when something is not real. [54:10] Artificial intelligence is making that much harder. [54:14] For older Americans, the harm from a senior scam does not end with stolen money or identity. [54:21] It ends with stolen dignity. [54:23] These scams can make our elders afraid to answer the phone. [54:27] They cause distrust and paranoia that cuts off real communications from our family. [54:32] And I know this firsthand. [54:34] I'm a part of the sandwich generation, and I have been horrified watching my mother, uh, who is at home during the day. [54:41] The predatory calls are absolutely unbelievable that she receives all day long. [54:47] They take away not only from, uh, those individuals a sense of safety and independence, but they also frighten the families. [54:54] And it's not easily restored. [54:56] So AI has the potential to help older adults remain independent. [55:00] We understand that support caregivers and even improve health care. [55:03] But left unchecked, those tools have emboldened bad actors and made our seniors especially vulnerable to scams. [55:10] Congress, I believe, has a responsibility to set clear rules, require meaningful safeguards, and hold companies accountable when they ignore known risks. [55:21] We know this harm is already happening, and we should not wait for more families to suffer. [55:26] Uh, Ms. Del Mastro, um, I, my first question is for you. [55:30] I was able to watch your testimony, and I want to thank you so much for being here and for being willing to share what happened to you. [55:37] I am also the mother of a daughter, so I can only imagine, um, the true trauma that you experienced that day. [55:45] And I know it's not easy to relive those five hours, and I'm so sorry for what you and your family had to endure. [55:52] Now, I want to be clear, um, I want to just ask you, um, a few questions. [55:57] I know you believed your daughter was in danger, and you did what any parent would do, which is everything you could to protect her. [56:04] And the people who targeted you counted on your motherly reaction. [56:09] So, if you're comfortable sharing what has stayed with you most since that day, if you can say. [56:14] And how did you feel upon learning that these seasoned criminals manipulated your emotions to create a sense of false urgency and emergency? [56:23] Well, I, I was absolutely furious at, at, when it, when it was over. [56:29] Absolutely furious. [56:30] I'm quite certain I screamed in the parking lot of that Walmart. [56:34] I'm certain I did. [56:36] Um, however, yeah, and again, and I was so incredibly relieved that I was, that it was a scam. [56:45] So relieved it was a scam. [56:47] Um, but what would you say the post, the part that stuck with you the most has been? [56:53] Is how, I think what stuck with me the most is how real it was. [57:00] Absolutely how real it was. [57:04] Yeah. [57:05] It was her voice. [57:06] It was, it was her voice, even though, um, they'd never spoke to her. [57:15] I mean, I'm, they, they more than likely got that off of, uh, got her voice off of, uh, social media would be my guess. [57:21] Um, but yeah, how it's, it's frightening how, how precise it is. [57:29] Yeah. [57:30] Now would you, would you, once you realize what happened, would you say that the institutions that you turned to for help, uh, were able to provide appropriate resources or were you left to navigate the aftermath largely on your own? [57:43] So with, with the way that the system set up now, what should victims be able to expect in those first critical hours? [57:49] Yeah. [57:50] Well, I, I went to, like I said, I went to the, uh, police immediately afterwards. [57:55] Um, I, I, we actually, my daughter and I went to see that same detective a couple of times. [58:01] Um, it was pretty clear there was nothing he could do. [58:04] It was pretty clear that they were not going to find these people. [58:09] There was no way to get the money back from it. [58:11] It was clear. [58:12] Nothing to do. [58:13] Yeah. [58:14] Well, let me just quickly go to Mr. Benda. [58:16] My time is going quickly. [58:17] In 2025, over 4,500 Marylanders age 60 and older filed complaints of internet crime and reported more than $176 million in losses. [58:28] Um, so when an older customer tells a bank that they were deceived into sending money, [58:34] the question is what happens next and how quickly can the bank act and where does its ability to trace or recover the money depend on, [58:42] uh, does it depend on another institution or law enforcement? [58:45] Uh, thank you, Senator. [58:46] That's a great question. [58:47] I think it is one of the challenges that we have is following that money. [58:50] So a lot of it depends on where the report. [58:52] Uh, I know a lot of folks are focused on reporting law enforcement, [58:55] but the best chance to get that money back is report directly to your bank. [58:58] The stopping the flow of funds happens in financial institutions, not through law enforcement. [59:01] So we highly recommend the first place in your port to is your bank. [59:04] Your bank can potentially reach out. [59:05] If it's another financial institution, such as a bank or even a credit union, [59:09] uh, we can reach out to them and there are wire recall procedures, [59:12] ACH returning procedures that can be done. [59:14] Uh, ABA itself is investing in resources to allow banks to freeze funds faster in those instances. [59:19] If it goes to a crypto firm or some other FinTech firm, uh, it becomes a lot more challenging. [59:24] The, the, the structures aren't there. [59:26] Uh, if it goes to a money service business like Western Union and other places, [59:29] the rules are different as well. [59:30] And it becomes an instant transfer, uh, and it becomes even more difficult. [59:33] So it varies depending on what institution is handling the transfer. [59:36] Thank you. [59:37] Thank you all for your testimony. [59:42] Um, Ms. Del Mastro and Dr. Amron, I am furious on your behalf. [59:49] I am stunned with how much injustice there is around these type of scams. [59:57] I have personal friends who, uh, got targeted and wind up sending money in a crypto machine [1:00:05] to some unaware unknown place. [1:00:08] My aunt was scammed into paying $5,000 because somebody told her she didn't pay her taxes right [1:00:13] and that they were going to send the FBI to arrest her. [1:00:16] I've taken, I've traveled all across New York and listened to our seniors about what's happened to them. [1:00:22] I've heard about the boyfriend scam, the girlfriend scam. [1:00:25] I've heard about the child scam, the grandchild, every, I mean, it's endless. [1:00:30] And these are seasoned, sophisticated criminal networks from all over the globe targeting our family members, [1:00:39] targeting our loved ones to just separate them from their hard earned money. [1:00:43] And it is a disgrace. [1:00:46] And so I think it is incumbent on Congress and this administration to do a hell of a lot more than we're doing today to protect Americans. [1:00:52] It is not acceptable that this has metastasized into a cancer that is harming New Yorkers, harming Americans every day. [1:01:01] I am furious with the president for deleting so many of the organizations and personnel that are supposed to protect you, [1:01:09] to actually stand between you and the scammer. [1:01:12] Okay, so since taking office, President Trump has taken a hacksaw to the very agencies that protect Americans from scammers and bad actors, [1:01:21] barring the CFPB from bringing enforcement actions, moving to shut down the CFPB entirely, slashing CISA funding and workforce, [1:01:31] dismantling the organized crime drug enforcement task forces. [1:01:35] These are all terrible outcomes. [1:01:37] I don't know who's supposed to protect who at this point. [1:01:40] So let me just start with you, Mr. Winters, and I'm going to talk to you all about this situation that is just unacceptable. [1:01:49] How have these policy changes affected our ability to stop scammers? [1:01:54] Thank you, Senator. And everything that we all talked about today was the problem and already in place before this administration did all of those things you talked about. [1:02:06] But before that, there were people at the CFPB helping chase down the money they lost. [1:02:11] There were people at the Federal Trade Commission that were getting that upstream actor, like Ryder, [1:02:18] that had their case sort of reversed after this AI generated thing. [1:02:22] So all of these actions have devastated and sort of failed Americans, right? [1:02:29] This is only going to get worse because of the lack of those cops on the beat, so to speak. [1:02:34] We need more, not less. [1:02:36] So, Mr. Benda, from your perspective, what investments and what protections should we put in place so that we have more safeguards for people who are being scammed? [1:02:47] Thank you for the question, Senator, and I share your rage at this instance. [1:02:52] I think a great example is Ms. Del Mastro's point that a local caller ID was used. [1:02:57] If it had said international caller on that phone, would that have maybe raised some eyebrows or unknown caller? [1:03:02] She might have still been because they're very convincing. [1:03:05] It's a criminal industrial complex. [1:03:06] People that make billions of dollars are convincing Americans because they have technology. [1:03:10] They're fighting a fight they can't win. [1:03:12] But maybe questions at the credit union. [1:03:13] I've heard of many examples where bank tellers saved the day saying, [1:03:18] Ma'am, can I just ask, this seems like a lot of money. [1:03:21] Where are you sending it? [1:03:22] Is this important to you? [1:03:23] Is this someone you know? [1:03:24] And that one intervention stopped $10,000 from going across. [1:03:30] Maybe more requirements at all of these transmitter locations where they are using and demanding money being transferred to have questions so that someone who is being rushed, [1:03:43] somebody who's clearly on another phone call, somebody who's showing all these indicia. [1:03:47] Would that be helpful? [1:03:48] So I think having training programs for anyone that's transmitting money makes a lot of sense. [1:03:52] ABA has a safe banking for seniors program. [1:03:54] We've given it to thousands of banks that are out there. [1:03:56] I think exactly those indicators you said, banks and credit unions and money services businesses should all be aware of. [1:04:01] Try and make them stop, think and pause and educate potentially about the scams that are out there. [1:04:06] Mr. Ferraro, you have deep federal experience at ODNI, the CIA, Department of Homeland Security. [1:04:14] In 2025, Government Accountability Office found that there was little coordination amongst federal agencies. [1:04:20] In response, I worked with Chairman Scott to introduce our bill, the National Strategy for Combating Scams Act. [1:04:26] It would put the FBI in charge of a multi-agency effort to build national strategies on scams. [1:04:32] Based on your federal experience, how does the lack of coordination of these agencies affect our ability to push back? [1:04:39] And what would a national strategy do to combat AI-driven scams? [1:04:44] Thank you, Senator. [1:04:45] Yes, I think that the lack of coordination can be a signal failure in government response to major issues. [1:04:52] And it leads to a number of things. [1:04:54] One major problem is information gaps. [1:04:57] So there's things that some agencies know, some actors know, and others don't. [1:05:01] Second is, of course, unclear accountability. [1:05:03] When there is no football coach on the team or no quarterback, you don't know whom to hold accountable for both success and for failure. [1:05:10] And third, I think there's discordant or disaligned incentives. [1:05:14] Without clear direction or strategy, bureaucracies can simply not act or not act with alacrity. [1:05:20] And so I do think that your strategy bill is a good one because I think it would solve a lot of those issues. [1:05:28] It would put the FBI in charge, as you said, that then they can be responsible. [1:05:32] They can be called before this committee to give testimony. [1:05:35] They can offer reports. [1:05:37] It would solve information gaps by directing that they share information. [1:05:41] And, of course, it could help align incentives to help address this very hydro-headed monster. [1:05:48] And I'm out of time, so I just want to end with Dr. Amron and Ms. Del Mastro. [1:05:55] What happened to you is unacceptable. [1:05:57] It is pure criminality. [1:05:59] It is undermining to your sense of safety, what you've accomplished in your life for you, Dr. Amron. [1:06:04] For you, Ms. Del Mastro, the safety of your family and the well-being. [1:06:09] I mean, these are very traumatic experiences. [1:06:12] What do you want from Congress and from law enforcement to do to help others who don't know this could happen to them, [1:06:20] to give you better recourse when it happens? [1:06:23] If you could just have a magic wand and solve this problem, what advice would you give to the senators? [1:06:30] Well, it's a very pervasive problem. [1:06:32] And there are many different avenues that the scams are taking place on. [1:06:35] You know, Mr. Scott apologized to me for what I went through. [1:06:39] But really, the victims are not really me. [1:06:41] It's my patients and that I really care about. [1:06:43] I want to make that very clear. [1:06:44] But it's a big problem. [1:06:47] And Mr. Tuberville, you know, had this idea of educating, which is, I think, a great thing. [1:06:52] That's only part of the thing. [1:06:53] You can't have this buyer beware type of mentality, you know, that that's going to be enough with it. [1:06:58] We pressure, at least with what happened with my patients, has to be put on the platforms, I believe. [1:07:04] The platforms that are supporting this have to have consequences. [1:07:08] Many of the criminals are outside the United States that are perpetuating these crimes with things like that. [1:07:15] So I think that there needs to be a lot more responsibility on the platforms that has to come from government and Congress. [1:07:21] I agree with what Mr. Amron said and Mr. Benda about, you know, if I had seen that that was an international call, I would have had a very different view. [1:07:35] You would have had a different view. [1:07:37] Completely different outcome. [1:07:39] Also, your example of having a human teller ask the questions. [1:07:48] Yeah. [1:07:49] The thing is, is that so many jobs are being replaced by AI where you don't know if you're talking to a human. [1:07:55] But if you are face to face with someone, if you have someone, if you are able to actually speak to a human being, I think that would help stop the whole scam from happening to begin with. [1:08:12] So I don't know how you can keep AI from replacing everyone. [1:08:16] But I think it's a noble cause to keep us all. [1:08:21] Well, thank you. [1:08:22] Yeah. [1:08:23] Thank you for sharing your story. [1:08:24] Thank you. [1:08:25] It's just, it's infuriating. [1:08:28] And we are up against hundreds of thousands of criminals doing this every day, stealing billions of dollars from Americans. [1:08:36] And we're very trusting. [1:08:38] They use our good nature against us. [1:08:41] They use our everything. [1:08:43] It's just a disgrace. [1:08:44] And so we are on notice that we have to do a lot more to make it better. [1:08:48] Mr. Chairman, I return it to you. [1:08:50] I know you have more questions. [1:08:51] Thank you. [1:08:53] Mr. Bender, can you please explain to the committee the dangers AI is proposing by impersonating banks, government officials, doctors, etc. [1:08:59] And the scale of damage can be done by successfully tricking Americans into believing these impersonations. [1:09:05] And what are some of the strategies the banking industry is using to combat the fraud? [1:09:10] Thank you, Mr. Sharon. [1:09:11] You know, I can't have you as eloquent as our two of the risks, especially to doctors and seniors that I think they pose in that, that the threat that's out there. [1:09:19] I think the education is a key piece to it that's going forward. [1:09:22] But I also think people need to recognize the risk that AI, when I talk about the industrialization of this, just as companies are using chat pots to engage individuals in a broader basis and then link that to a human, the criminals are engaging the same thing. [1:09:34] They're going to start the conversation with a chat bot and hand it off to a human when they've got someone on the phone that they think they're going to be able to scam. [1:09:40] So we're going to continue to see this type of activity. [1:09:42] We really have to restore trust in our telecommunications and our social media ecosystems. [1:09:48] We've got to ensure that that caller ID that's there, that number that's there, that name that's there is accurate. [1:09:52] We can't allow those to be faked. [1:09:54] We have to ensure when someone's visage is used on an online platform that that visage is actually accurate. [1:10:00] You know, I use, I use Google photos. [1:10:02] I can find pictures of my daughter who's sitting right back there. [1:10:04] I can pull up every picture of my daughter in an instant. [1:10:06] You're telling me in an online platform, can't tell me when someone's impersonating someone else that's out there. [1:10:11] So different tools that are in place and then the ability to take down those scams when they're on there. [1:10:15] It should not take 11 days when we know people are actively being robbed to take down an ad. [1:10:20] This is a, this is a doctor who's got a practice that's internationally known. [1:10:23] If he's reporting something, it should be acted on. [1:10:25] So I think the scam act has some requirements in there in terms of timeline that Senators Gallego and Moreno have put out there. [1:10:30] I think those are the types of activities that we need to take. [1:10:33] Thank you. [1:10:35] For our AI scams are inherently borderless. [1:10:38] Can you talk about your experience with foreign weaponization of deep fakes and what kind of threat do they pose? [1:10:43] Certainly, Senator. [1:10:44] So you're absolutely right that it is an international phenomenon and oftentimes it is a conspiracy [1:10:52] that there's like actual warehouses of people who are operating to execute these frauds, [1:10:58] which I think underscores something that we haven't really talked about yet, [1:11:01] which is the importance of international cooperation because the folks who are actually going to go and shut down those scam operations [1:11:08] are going to be local law enforcement. [1:11:10] And there, this isn't my testimony, I believe, but there was a recent example of that in Vietnam [1:11:15] where the Vietnamese police worked with the American government to go and literally arrest people [1:11:21] who are running these sorts of deep fake scams. [1:11:23] And they run the gamut across all the different kinds of scams we've talked about, the romance scams, the impersonation scams. [1:11:30] There was a report recently in the New York Times about in China that they're creating thousands of AI avatar doctors [1:11:37] who are selling supplements and, you know, oftentimes that is in some sense legal, [1:11:43] but you can probably still work with the Chinese government to seek some redress against them, [1:11:48] particularly when, as I said in my testimony, when things are illegal without AI, they're illegal with AI. [1:11:53] So I think that in some ways this just speaks to the need of an all-of-government response, [1:11:58] which would include the State Department, the FBI, DHS, and others. [1:12:02] Thank you. Mr. Winters, you've got a background in law enforcement. [1:12:07] So would a centralized reporting portal encourage more victims to come forward? [1:12:11] Yeah, absolutely. It would facilitate those people coming forward, right? [1:12:16] Right now, you could say, where should you report it? [1:12:18] And you could say, you go to the FBI or the FTC or state AGs or local police department or the AARP. [1:12:23] Like, I could name 15 different kinds or do it right on the platform. [1:12:26] And none of those things are talking to each other. [1:12:29] And so, A, the owner should not be on the victim to try to figure out what the most effective way of doing it is. [1:12:35] And so, yes, it would facilitate a more accurate picture of what's actually going on because you'd get more reports. [1:12:42] It would also help facilitate this better education, right? [1:12:44] Like, the fact that it's so fragmented makes it harder to educate people about what to do and how to educate yourself. [1:12:51] If you had the report scams.gov where you could report it and learn more about it, that would be massive. [1:12:56] Do you think it's realistic to get all these agencies to work together? [1:12:59] I think so. You know, a lot of what I did was interagency stuff. [1:13:03] So, you know, not too bad. I think everyone wants to stop this exact thing from happening. [1:13:07] And it's not that hard, but it's hard to coordinate everyone to do it. [1:13:11] Do you have any more? Okay. [1:13:14] I have literally hours. I have hours of questions. [1:13:17] I literally have hours of questions for all of you. [1:13:20] So I just want to thank you for testifying and bringing your stories here and bringing all your recommendations. [1:13:26] For our three expert witnesses, you've given us a lot of good food for thought in terms of recommendations. [1:13:31] We're going to follow them. [1:13:32] But I just want to thank you all because this is such a big problem. [1:13:36] And this is just the tip of the iceberg. [1:13:38] These are just two scams out of millions. [1:13:41] And I'm just so grateful that you are focused on trying to solve the problem. [1:13:45] And I really appreciate you, Mr. Chairman, for having this hearing. [1:13:48] And we released today a bipartisan report that hopefully we've had some luck with. [1:13:53] We did one, a big one, on the generic drugs. [1:13:56] And we were very close to getting the bill passed on. [1:13:59] It would impact that. [1:14:00] And I think we'll get some of this stuff done if we continue to work together. [1:14:03] So thanks, everybody, for being here today and participating. [1:14:06] I look forward to continuing to work with all the members here. [1:14:09] I also want to remind seniors and families watching that the Senate Aging Committee operates a fraud hotline for anyone who believes they may have been targeted or victimized. [1:14:16] The number is 1-855-303-9470. [1:14:22] If any senators have additional questions for the witnesses or statements to be added, [1:14:26] their hearing record will be open until next Wednesday at 5 p.m. [1:14:29] Thank you all for being here.