Nick Saban, others testify before Senate on protecting college sports

[0:00] premier talent and sports agencies in the world. [0:03] I can't fail to mention that Sports Business Journal [0:06] named him one of the 125 most influential sports executives [0:11] of the last 25 years. [0:13] He and I have had productive conversations [0:16] about the future of collegiate sports. [0:18] We will continue those conversations. [0:20] I know his experience and vision [0:22] will be instructive to all of us. [0:24] So Pete, thank you for being here [0:26] and for contributing to this important conversation today. [0:32] Thank you, Senator Young. [0:33] Well, I'll now turn it over to our colleague [0:35] from West Virginia, Senator Capito, [0:37] to introduce our third witness, Gordon Gee. [0:39] Thank you, Chairman. [0:41] And I am excited to be in this hearing today [0:43] for many reasons, most importantly, [0:44] because we have two great West Virginians on the panel, [0:48] one honorary and one born and raised in Marion County, [0:50] the first being Dr. E. Gordon Gee [0:53] and the second coach, Nick Saban. [0:55] Thank you both for being here. [0:56] I'd also like to thank you all for giving me the opportunity [0:58] to introduce Dr. Gee, a champion for college athletics [1:03] who has made a profound impact on my state's trademark [1:06] public land grant higher education institution, [1:09] West Virginia University. [1:10] Dr. Gee, or as we call him Gordon, [1:13] was born in Utah and attended the University of Utah. [1:16] But he is quick to mention that he is a born again [1:18] West Virginian. [1:20] Having served twice as president of WVU, [1:23] and he always wears his signature. [1:24] He had gold and blue bow ties. [1:27] He has experience having served as president [1:29] of five different universities throughout his career, [1:32] the University of Colorado, [1:34] the Ohio State University twice, [1:37] Brown University and Vanderbilt University, [1:41] in addition to WVU. [1:43] He has also signed more college diplomas [1:46] than anybody else in the history of this country. [1:49] He has a long list of academic accomplishments and achievements [1:53] that he took into his retirement from WVU last summer. [1:56] But we're here to talk about a topic [1:58] that Gordon remains central to Gordon's focus and identity, [2:01] and that is college athletics. [2:03] Gordon has long been quick to recognize [2:05] that on-field success translates [2:07] to the overall well-being and health of an institution. [2:11] He says, athletics is the front porch of the university, [2:15] the place where people look at us and decide whether or not [2:18] they want to walk through that front door. [2:20] He has served at the Big 12 Conference's representative [2:23] to the college football playoff board of managers, [2:26] as well as chair of the Big 12 Conference [2:28] Board of Directors Executive Committee. [2:30] As Gordon navigated WVU through the challenges [2:33] and complexities of the COVID-19 pandemic, [2:36] he was a leading voice in maintaining [2:38] that the 2020 college football season would go on, [2:43] saying that West Virginia University will be playing football, [2:46] even if I have to suit up myself. [2:49] Gordon's, look at Gordon. [2:51] Gordon's vast experience in this field [2:55] will enhance the perspective of our members [2:57] as we discuss ways to protect college sports [2:59] and support our athletes. [3:01] He's battle-tested in this arena [3:03] and understands factors that jeopardize [3:05] the future of college athletics as we know them [3:08] and the impacts that they make. [3:10] In a recent op-ed, Gordon noted that when it comes [3:13] to the current state of college athletics, quote, [3:16] there is so much at stake. [3:18] The future of the Olympics, the future of women's sports, [3:22] the opportunity for young people to earn a scholarship [3:26] and compete for something greater than self [3:28] and become tomorrow's leaders. [3:30] So I look forward to hearing from Gordon [3:32] about how he sees Congress's role in preserving [3:34] this crucial aspect of our society. [3:37] And I really thank him for being here [3:38] and thank him for his friendship. [3:41] I thank my friend, Senator Capito. [3:43] And in defense of our witness, I will note, [3:46] he may not be big, but I am confident he's really damn quick. [3:52] Our next witness is Theresa Gold, [3:54] commissioner of the PAC-12. [3:56] As commissioner, Ms. Gold has sought to build upon [4:00] the 100-year legacy of the PAC-12 [4:03] by launching in 2026 with nine member universities. [4:07] She brings extensive experience in athletics management [4:10] from UC Davis, UC Berkeley, the West Coast Conference, [4:15] and the Midwestern Collegiate Conference. [4:18] And our final witness is Lance Holtzclaw. [4:21] Mr. Holtzclaw is a student athlete, welcome, [4:24] playing defensive end for the Utah Utes football team. [4:28] He played football for the University of Washington [4:30] before transferring to Utah in 2024. [4:34] Coach Saban, you are recognized for your opening statement. [4:40] Can you make sure to turn your microphone on? [4:43] Thank you, Chairman Cruz. [4:44] I could use a little of that Cuban coffee, [4:47] because I didn't sleep much last night [4:49] worrying about this testimony, [4:51] ranking member Cantwell and members of the committee. [4:54] Thank you for the opportunity to testify. [4:58] And I really want everybody here to know that I'm not here [5:01] to represent a conference or a team, [5:04] but to preserve college athletics as a whole. [5:08] You know, I think we all have to ask ourselves a question. [5:12] What is our guiding principles for the future of college athletics, [5:15] including Olympic women and non-revenue sports? [5:20] You know, I've spent my adult life in college athletics. [5:23] I believe in it. [5:24] I've seen people come, young people come in the program, [5:29] need structure, need discipline, need coaching, need academic support, [5:33] need accountability, and I've seen them leave with a degree, a career, a family, [5:39] and a better chance to be successful in life. [5:41] I think the current system that we have in college athletics right now [5:45] makes it more and more difficult to do these things. [5:50] We've moved away from development to focusing on money and not life skills. [5:55] So to put this in perspective, if you had the biggest, baddest Ferrari [5:59] that you could ever have and it was going 150 miles an hour toward the Grand Canyon, [6:04] somebody needs to tap the brakes. [6:07] And I think that's what we all need to do here. [6:09] And I'm going to veer a little away from my testimony [6:12] and just give you some examples of, you know, things that I think people may not know [6:17] that are happening in college football that are huge problems. [6:20] First of all, I think student athletes should profit from name, image, and likeness [6:25] as long as those things are authentic endorsements. [6:29] They create branding for themselves. [6:32] They sign with the company. [6:34] They do promotions. [6:36] I think these things are all healthy for their education [6:39] as well as their quality of life. [6:42] I think name, image, and likeness has become pay for play. [6:46] You know, I said five or six years ago when a school that I'm not going to mention [6:51] who didn't do anything wrong had what is called a collective. [6:56] A collective is an organization that raises money, basically from alumni, [7:03] to be able to pay players and disguise it as marketing opportunities. [7:09] When a school did that, the first school that did it, I said, [7:12] is this what we want college football to become? [7:16] And I got really criticized for that. [7:18] But it has become that, and it's become pay for play. [7:24] And we've also extended the opportunities now to funnel money from operations, [7:30] which come to the universities as marketing opportunities [7:34] from the university standpoint, to funnel that money out of operations [7:38] into paying players. [7:41] So now if you take that $20 million or whatever it is, [7:44] you could fund five or six Olympic and women's sports. [7:49] So these are things that I think need to be addressed. [7:53] And I think this bill takes a big step forward in doing that. [7:57] So I think this bill also creates a competitive balance. [8:03] You know, the NFL, the NBA, Major League Baseball, [8:06] they all have some kind of rules that govern how they compete. [8:13] It creates parity. [8:14] It creates, you know, something that gives you the opportunity [8:19] to have a framework to build a fair play system in, [8:25] which I think is really, really important. [8:27] And I think this bill does that right now in college football. [8:30] We have no rules. [8:32] We have state laws. [8:33] We have different in every state. [8:35] We have litigation. [8:37] The NCAA cannot enforce their own rules [8:40] because every time they try to enforce the rule, there's a lawsuit. [8:44] So, I mean, an example would be Ole Miss's quarterback. [8:48] They say he can't play next year. [8:50] He's playing next year because of litigation. [8:53] So, but this is just the way it is. [8:55] It's become an arm race. [8:56] Who spends the most has got the best chance to win. [9:00] But I think it's a race to the bottom because if you don't spend to win, [9:04] you lose your fan base and you don't have any revenue. [9:06] So how do you manage the other sports? [9:09] So the one thing that I think this bill does, you know, [9:14] sort of enhance the enforcement of the House settlement, right, [9:18] which to me is a start, which sort of creates a revenue share, kind of a cap, [9:25] and also controls some of the name, image, and likeness things that this bill tries to control. [9:31] So transferring, you know, I think transferring is a good thing. [9:35] I don't think a player should be trapped in a bad situation. [9:39] But I also think multiple transfers have a negative effect. [9:43] I think there can be legitimate circumstances where you can transfer more than once. [9:48] I think if you graduate, you should be able to transfer again because you might have a fifth year [9:52] where you can have more success someplace else. But unlimited transfers creates free agency. [10:01] Free agency with a collective. Now you're talking about bidding more for players. [10:06] And then you've got agents out there that are not certified, [10:11] that are enhancing players or encouraging players to get in the portal. [10:15] I can get you more money. So now we have this unbelievable number of players [10:20] that get in the portal every year. And we have nothing to control agents. [10:25] We have nothing to control tampering. You know, Clemson had a player that was on campus for [10:30] a whole week, and they come and got him off the campus and took him someplace else. [10:35] So these kinds of things going on in college football are absolutely not what anybody of [10:40] any of us signed up for relative to the educational institutions that, you know, [10:45] we've all tried to represent. So what's the cause and effect of transferring? I think every time you [10:55] transfer, you have less and less of an opportunity to graduate. You know, this hits home with me [11:01] because I actually coached 50 years ago when people didn't graduate. And we saw 30 for 30s on what [11:08] happened to their life. And we worked hard for a long time to get graduation rates where they are. [11:14] And I'm proud of the fact that we had 668 or whatever the number is, you know, [11:20] graduates at Alabama over 17 years. So we need to get back to, you know, that kind of [11:28] atmosphere in college athletics. But if you transfer all the time, so first of all, [11:33] we had players transfer that were in business. So they transfer, they couldn't get business school [11:38] with the school they transferred to. So they got general studies so they could be eligible. So they [11:45] minimized the importance of their degree because they transferred. And then also, could they [11:51] graduate? You got guys transfer in three or four years, we have guys playing seven or eight years of [11:56] college football, which is ridiculous. We had 50 players in the draft this year that were over 25 years [12:02] old, competing against 17 and 18 year olds, only because we have no structure in terms of what is [12:10] eligibility. So the eligibility rule of five years is a really good thing, I think. I think we should [12:16] protect prep schools if somebody wants to improve their academic circumstance, their clock shouldn't [12:20] start. And they should still have five years after that. And I think defining who is a pro. I know a guy [12:26] came from the G League, that's a pro. There's also guys coming from Europe that are pros that are not under [12:32] the same rules and regulations. I think all those things need to be controlled. So the collective, [12:40] what if we continue to invest more and more in football and basketball? Let me give you the history. [12:46] My first year we had collective at Alabama, 2.7 million. Next year, 7 million. Next year, 10 million. [12:53] I retired. Next year, 17 million. Next year, 24 million. Now you have schools that have close to 40 [12:59] million rosters. So if we continue to do that, we're going to lose Olympic sports. We're going to [13:06] lose non-revenue sports. We're going to lose scholarships. And basically what's going to happen [13:11] is you're going to have football and basketball succeed, and we'll have club sports for everything [13:15] else with no scholarships. That's horrible. I mean, we can't let that happen. And I think we have to [13:22] continue to figure out ways that we can raise revenue so that we can keep all sports and all [13:27] opportunities for all young people intact. I think we have to protect scholarships. We mentioned that [13:33] injury, roster decisions, athletic performance should not be reasons to get rid of a player. [13:39] But what we've created now with the portal, which we think is a good thing, all the coach has to say [13:45] to a player that's not very good is get in the portal. I don't want you on the team. So he gets in [13:51] the portal and maybe he doesn't get an opportunity. 30% of the people who get in the portal don't get an [13:56] opportunity. So nobody talks about those things. And it minimizes because everybody recruits out of [14:01] the portal how many young people out of high school get an opportunity to get a scholarship and play [14:06] college football and start a career. So I think medical protection, injury protection, and health [14:11] care are something that's really, really important. But I also think that Congress does not need to [14:17] micromanage college athletics. There's lots of people out there that can help us do that. Congress does [14:22] need to fix the mess and the courts create a national framework so people inside college sports can [14:29] enforce fair rules. Without legal certainty, every rule becomes another lawsuit. Every standard becomes [14:35] another risk. And the system keeps drifting toward the professional model. I believe we want an [14:41] education-based model that compensates athletes fairly, protects athletes properly, and still preserves [14:48] development, competition opportunity, and tradition. That is what this bill is trying to do. It isn't [14:54] perfect. And I'm sure many, many adjustments need to be made. And I think there's a lot of people who [15:00] can add to that. But this is a serious bipartisan effort to bring order to a system that is badly needs [15:09] fixing. I don't think this is bipartisan. I think it should be non-partisan. It's that important in terms of [15:17] college athletics in terms of the future for young people. It protects athletes. It protects [15:22] opportunity. It protects competitive balance. It protects the sports that do not always generate [15:28] revenue but still matter. It gives college athletes a chance to move forward with rules that are clear, [15:35] national, and enforceable. For these reasons, I support the Protect College Sports Act and urge Congress [15:43] to act. Thank you. Thank you, Coach. Mr. Mavacqua, you're recognized for your opening statement. [15:50] Well, thank you, Chairman Cruz and Ranking Member Cantwell. It's an honor to be here. It's an honor [15:56] to be here with my fellow witnesses and to represent Notre Dame. And I also want to thank Senator Young [16:02] for a very nice introduction and also everything he does for our state in Indiana and for Notre Dame. [16:08] I agree with Coach Saban. This is a major milestone to have this bipartisan support to do something for [16:17] college sports. And I think this bill is an enormous step in the right direction. We have to act now. [16:25] There is a tremendous sense of urgency. If we don't act now, women's and Olympic sports are going to be [16:31] de-emphasized or cut, as you showed, Senator Cantwell. We need to act now to protect athletic departments, [16:38] and we need to act now to make sure that the student-athlete experience—and these are student-athletes, [16:46] they're not just athletes—that the student-athlete experience is preserved and maintained and, [16:51] quite frankly, reinforced around the country. We need sanity restored to the transfer portal. We need [16:57] sanity restored to what it means to be a college student-athlete around eligibility. I love the fact [17:04] that we're talking about protecting scholarships, that we're talking about extended medical insurance, [17:09] that we're talking about some real regulations around agents that are out there representing these [17:15] young men and women. We need a realistic cap. The concept of a cap emanating from the house [17:22] settlement, in my opinion, is a fallacy. There is no cap. It's an equation. It's an x plus y equals z [17:29] equation, x being the cap dollars, y being the gray space of third-party NIL, which, quite frankly, [17:37] right now is littered with abuse and uncertainty. The more money that can come from the cap directly [17:43] to student-athletes, I think, will go a long way. And at Notre Dame, you know, our North Star in the [17:48] athletic department is preserving that student-athlete experience. We want an integrated student-athlete [17:53] experience. And we spend so much time in this country talking about the superstars. In our world, [17:59] the Jeremiah Loves, the Hannah Hidalgos, the Caitlin Clarks, the Cooper Flags. But if Congress doesn't [18:06] act now, there are going to be thousands and thousands and thousands of stories of young men and women, [18:12] particularly in football and men's and women's basketball, that bounce around to three, four schools. [18:18] And when you're going to three or four schools over a defined, finite amount of time, the educational [18:22] aspect of this becomes a total farce. And maybe they're earning NIL money along the way in bits [18:28] and pieces. And maybe at a young age, you feel that NIL money is going to cure all of your monetary [18:34] woes for the rest of your life. But these are not the type of kids who have the talent to make it in the [18:39] NFL, the NBA, or the WNBA. And you're going to have a generation of student-athletes, thousands of cases [18:45] that are finishing their college journey without a college degree, with money that is fleeting. So by the [18:52] time they're 25, they've torn through that money. And it's kind of a good luck with the rest of your [18:57] life. You know, we make a promise to our student-athletes, we talk about four for forever. [19:02] You're four years at Notre Dame, you're four years, you're five years at any university, [19:06] whether it's the University of Alabama, West Virginia, universities in the Pac-12, where Lance [19:11] is at Utah, that school owes those student-athletes the skills, the education, and the degree to make it in [19:19] life. And so I applaud this bipartisan effort. Coach Saban said, hey, it's not perfect, but it's [19:26] progress. It's tremendous progress. And if we don't act now, I fear the future of college sports. [19:34] We need a realistic cap. We need to clear that up. We have to be forthright with one another. [19:40] If we have these continuing runaway roster fees, primarily around football and men's basketball, [19:47] I think there's going to be two inevitable outcomes. You're going to have a Super League, [19:51] because there's only going to be a small number of universities that are going to wake up year in [19:55] and year out and say, okay, we can still invest this type of money to field a nationally competitive [20:00] football team. I don't think a Super League is good for college football, and I certainly don't [20:05] think a Super League is good for college sports. The other thing, and I think we've all said it, [20:09] and Senator Cantwell, you said it so well, even the strongest universities, the healthiest universities, [20:15] if you continue to have these runaway roster fees, if you continue to have a failed house settlement [20:24] with a cap that is not realistic and continued motivation to move into that gray space of third [20:31] party NIL, you are absolutely going to see the continuation of the slide that you put up [20:37] with cutting and de-emphasizing Olympic and women's sports. And that would be a very, [20:42] very sad day for this country, and an unbelievably negative thing to take away all those amazing [20:47] opportunities for hundreds and hundreds of thousands of young men and women who get their [20:53] life started in a great direction by participating as a student athlete at universities all around this [20:58] country. So I thank you for the efforts you've made so far. I thank you for this bipartisan bill [21:04] that you've put there. I hope and I know that you want to work with all of us and leaders in the [21:09] college space to get this bill in as good a shape as possible. And as I said, I'll repeat myself, [21:14] I think it's a wonderful step in the right direction. Thank you, Mr. Gee. You're recognized [21:19] for your opening. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and certainly a ranking member Cantwell. I am [21:27] really honored to be here today. In fact, I feel a little bit out of place with all of these. [21:32] Yeah, I'm 5'5 and 140 pounds. I could hardly get out of bed in the morning, let alone play anything. [21:40] So it's very difficult for me to think about hanging around with these folks. But I'm grateful to do so. [21:46] And I thank you, Madam Senator, who is my dear friend from West Virginia, who does a great job. [21:55] But not only that, she's just a great person. And her husband, Charlie, is a member of the university's [22:00] board of governors. And they are just devoted to West Virginia. So thank you very much. I'm [22:06] delightful to be here. Delighted to be here. And if I could just say amen to what Coach Saban said, [22:11] and amen to what my good friend Pete said, I would do so. But I will add a few other things. Yes, [22:19] I have an unstable employment pattern. I have been president of five universities for 45 years. [22:25] And most of the time I've left voluntarily. A couple of times, a couple of times I left just ahead of the [22:35] sheriff. But Mr. Gates, sometimes that happens in politics. I can I know we're in it. We're in [22:42] the same kind of business in some ways. You know, I must just say that I get that, you know, Woodrow [22:49] Wilson left the presidency of Princeton to become the governor of New Jersey, as you well know. And [22:56] when asked why he left Princeton, he said he wanted to get out of politics. So I sort of think that [23:01] we're in the same business, as a matter of fact. But during that time, I've been privileged to serve [23:08] these great universities. But what I've really been privileged to do is I've been privileged to serve the [23:12] people of the states in which I find myself. And these are wonderful people who care deeply about [23:18] their institutions and care deeply about the opportunities for their young people. And [23:23] and so I get so much joy from from fulfilling those expectations. And I do have my name on about a [23:30] half million diplomas. In fact, I was in the hotel today, writing down a guy said, said, Hi, I was at [23:42] Vanderbilt with you. He's about 6'10". I don't know, he was big. Of course, everyone looks [23:48] big to me. But I but he was a football player. And he's now working for Goldman Sachs. And he said [23:55] that without that football opportunity at Vanderbilt, he would have been distressed. And I just thought [24:02] that that was really driving the point home today. I've I've chaired the Big Ten Conference [24:09] twice. I've chaired the Southeastern Conference. I've chaired the Big 12. I've even shared the Ivy League [24:14] conference, which was the most difficult, I might add. And and and then, of course, I've been heavily [24:22] involved in college in the college football playoff. But all of this is just to say that I have seen [24:29] it. I have experienced it. And I do believe that there is an existential crisis in college athletics. [24:36] You're taking a look at the poster boy boy for some of those problems. Presidents and chancellors are not [24:42] free from blame. And certainly having been at this for a long time, I probably am at the head of that [24:48] pack. We've agreed to outrageous salary contracts, reduced the academic mission of being a student [24:54] athlete and abrogated too much power to athletic directors and conference commissioners. Some, by the [25:00] way, who seem more aligned with media companies than with their own universities. The end result is that [25:08] we now have an unsustainable system. As as the coach said, as Pete said, we have an unsustainable system [25:15] unless we take bold action. It's just that simple. The NCAA and the conference is lost in the courts [25:20] because we fail to allow student athletes to function as true students with great talents who [25:26] earn the right to monetize those talents. So saying that I can hear the chorus now. There are people out [25:32] there in the back and a variety of other things. They say, well, this is just a fuzzy headed academic [25:37] failing to understand the realities of college athletics. Well, I want you to know I plead not [25:43] guilty. And the reason for that is the fact that I fully understand the power of college athletics and [25:50] its impact on the university. For example, I have yet to be able to persuade 110,000 people to show up for a [25:57] chemistry lecture. Athletics. Well, I also point out that, you know, coach, to me, to me, to everyone, [26:07] all the fans, it was just a football game. To me, it was my budget running up and down the field. So I [26:11] had to I had to keep track of that, too. But athletes play an incredibly important part in the culture [26:18] and spirit of universities. It is absolutely unmatched. And what you said, what both of you said, [26:23] but what you said, Senator, is so true, is the fact that I've traveled the world. I've been to so many [26:28] different institutions around the world. This is a unique part of the American culture. And it really [26:34] is so unique that no one has been able to replicate it. So this legislation solves the governance crisis [26:41] in college sports with sensible consensus rules, which balance and respect both long-term stability [26:47] and student athletic rights. It also solves the financial crisis, which there is a huge financial [26:53] crisis, not only caused by athletics, but we have a substantial financial crisis among universities [26:59] in this country. If we don't address it as part of that overall structure, we are going to have [27:06] considerable problems in terms of just sustaining our education system. And let me just give you an [27:12] example. College sports will lose over five billion this year alone. Think about that. The system must [27:19] capture the billions in media revenue that college sports leaves on the table each year. College [27:24] football already has twice the viewership of the NBA, but half the media revenue. Now that just seems to [27:32] me to be to be unsustainable. It's something that we cannot really, really be able to even understand. [27:39] So I know that firsthand from my time in the conferences, et cetera, that this is a serious problem. [27:46] This bill provides the option to pull our rights. And I say that again, to pull our rights where the [27:51] conferences and schools themselves decide, as you said, this is optional, whether to sell their rights [27:57] together. But the very fact that we have addressed this is so enormously important. So with this legislation, [28:03] we bring common sense to a very intractable problem. And I am grateful that this is bipartisan. [28:12] And I love what the coach said. It should be nonpartisan. [28:16] College athletics should be nonpartisan. It should be about joy, achievements, and a variety of other [28:22] things. So making certain that there are sufficient resources to support women's sports and Olympic [28:27] sports are absolutely critical. Senator Cantwell and I have talked about that so many times. I feel so [28:32] strongly about that. So today we have an opportunity. And I do believe that that window will close quickly. [28:41] And there are those who don't don't want that window to remain open. We have to run through it. And I've got some [28:47] pretty good fullbacks here, including including my my guy right down here. He said he'd be my fullback, too. [28:53] Right. As a matter of fact. So thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. [28:58] I'll warn you as a defensive end says more use. I know. I know. I know. Yeah. [29:03] Ms. Gould, you're recognized for your opening statement. Good morning. Chairman Cruz, [29:09] ranking member Cantwell and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to share my [29:15] perspective on your vital work regarding college sports, an industry I have proudly served for more [29:22] than 36 years. While college sports is now a massive business, its core purpose remains unchanged despite [29:31] recent seismic shifts. College athletics has always offered and continues to offer [29:38] transformational opportunities for young people while serving as an anchor for alumni and communities [29:46] nationwide to connect to the institutions they love. A cornerstone of American life that is uniquely ours. [29:55] Today, however, a combination of both internal and external pressures has brought us to a concerning [30:02] crossroads. Without immediate intervention, we risk significant damage to our colleges and universities, [30:09] and even more importantly, to the student athletes who are caught in the middle. Yet despite the [30:15] challenges facing the current system, college athletics continues to thrive, expanding its audience, [30:23] producing future Olympians and leaders, and delivering meaningful value to higher education. [30:30] Like much of college athletics, the Pac-12 has faced unprecedented disruption. Yet through periods of [30:37] adversity, we have remained relentless, creative, resilient, and willing to challenge convention. From [30:46] securing national representation in governance at both the NCAA and conference level, securing student-athlete [30:53] benefits, providing national exposure for women's sports, the Pac-12 has consistently challenged the [31:00] status quo and remains committed to meaningful reform through this process. All of the challenges facing college [31:09] sports cannot be fixed in a single bill. There are just too many complexities. Yet we must act [31:17] immediately on the most pressing needs that are in front of us. Codifying critical student-athlete benefits [31:25] and protections, providing a limited antitrust safe harbor, enforcing the house settlement as originally agreed [31:34] upon and intended, ensuring that the implementation remains true to that intent, establishing strict [31:43] safeguards against bad actor agents who prey on our student-athletes, and creating new mechanisms, [31:50] including pulled media rights to generate incremental revenue to help preserve women and Olympic sports, [31:57] and to fund the growing costs of our evolving model. These core items, all included in the Protect College [32:04] Sports Act, will help secure our model so that future generations can pursue the same impactful [32:11] experience our country and the Pac-12 conference I represent has provided for more than a century. [32:19] Because many important issues cannot be resolved this year, the proposed commission provides the [32:25] framework to evaluate the complex changes that require more time and broader collaboration. Leadership of [32:33] this effort must come from a diverse, balanced body that includes student-athletes, represents the broad [32:41] spectrum of Division I membership, and is grounded in both accountability and transparency. Our future model must [32:50] encourage fair opportunities for all institutions to invest in student-athletes, ensuring reasonable [32:57] access to the very highest levels of competition. Every program and every student-athlete deserves a world where [33:06] they have a fair shot. Through the commission framework, we must honestly engage in a conversation [33:14] around student-athlete employment status and collective bargaining. Student-athletes deserve a meaningful voice in [33:20] decisions that affect them, and our future model must reflect that partnership. It should recognize the diverse [33:28] perspectives and aspirations of all student-athletes from those in revenue-generating sports with significant [33:36] economic upside to those in Olympic and women's sports who may be seeking a different collegiate [33:42] experience. They all matter and they all deserve a voice. The commission should evaluate innovative [33:49] structures for the future that reduce travel, limit time away from campus, and support student-athlete well-being while [33:57] preserving competitive opportunities. And any future governance model must also represent the diverse [34:04] realities of 300-plus very differently situated Division I institutions. The clock is ticking. We must act now [34:14] to modernize our system and address the complex challenges facing college sports. While no solution is [34:20] perfect, we have a pivotal opportunity to make meaningful progress. Doing nothing is simply not an option. [34:29] The PAC-12 is committed to being part of this solution. If we come together at this critical moment, we can [34:36] protect the traditions we love while recognizing the rights, offering the experiences, and delivering the [34:43] protections that our student-athletes truly deserve. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Gould. Mr. Hortzclaw, you're [34:50] recognized for your opening statement. Thank you to Chairman Cruz, ranking member Cantwell, and all distinguished members of the committee. [34:59] I thank you again for this opportunity appear before you today, available to me through being in college [35:05] athletics. Introducing myself to y'all as I'm probably the least recognizable face in on this witness stand, [35:12] but my name is Lance Hortzclaw, and I am a football student-athlete at the University of Utah, and it's an [35:18] honor to be here representing current and future student-athletes across the country. My journey to this table began in my hometown of [35:25] Dorchester in Boston, Massachusetts, but during my sophomore year of high school, I had moved to Mesa, Arizona, [35:31] and sports have become a major part of my life at an early age and have helped teach me discipline, [35:37] resilience, accountability, teamwork, and what true brotherhood looks like. Since Pop Warner Football, [35:43] I've dreamed of competing at the collegiate level while pursuing an education that would prepare me [35:48] for life after sports. Also, I'd like to thank my parents, Anika Garcia and Hubert Hortzclaw, [35:54] whose unwavering support, guidance, and sacrifices have made my journey possible. In high school, I was [36:00] recruited during the COVID-19 pandemic. Recruiting visits were limited, evaluation periods were disrupted, [36:06] seasons were cut short and canceled, and many of us were forced to make life-changing decisions under [36:11] circumstances no previous generation had experienced. Following high school, I attended the University of [36:17] Washington, where I began my college career. During that time, our team captured the final Pac-12 [36:23] championship, went on to college football playoffs and won the Sugar Bowl, and advanced off to the [36:28] national championship game. I then transferred to the University of Utah, where I earned my degree [36:33] in sociology and still have one season of eligibility remaining. Throughout my college career, I've experienced [36:39] college athletics across the Pac-12, the Big 10, and the Big 12 conferences, giving me a first-hand view of how [36:46] conference realignment has reshaped the student-athlete experience. I want to thank this committee for [36:51] recognizing the importance of including student athletes in this conversation about the future of [36:56] college sports. While I may not have the titles or experience of others testifying today, I do bring a [37:01] perspective that cannot be replicated, which is the perspective of a student athlete living through these changes in real time. [37:06] I've experienced the impact of NIL, the transfer portal, conference realignment, evolving [37:13] eligibility rules, and the many changes shaping modern college athletics. These issues are often [37:19] discussed through the lens of policy, economics, and governance, but behind every decision are real students, [37:25] balance of academics, athletics, personal development, and preparation for life. That is why student-athlete voice [37:32] must remain at the part of these conversations. Decisions about college athletics should not be [37:38] made solely for student-athletes, but made with student-athletes. College athletics has provided me [37:43] with incredible opportunities, relationships, and experiences that have helped me elevate my life in [37:48] tremendous ways. I believe strongly in preserving these opportunities for future generations while [37:54] continuing to improve a system that serves the student-athletes at its center. Again, I thank you all for the [38:00] opportunity to be here today, and I'm honored to represent the student-athlete community, [38:04] and I look forward to sharing my perspective with the committee. Thank you very much. I appreciate each [38:10] of the witnesses being here this morning, and I appreciate your testimony. I think we've heard broad [38:15] agreement from very different perspectives that college sports is in crisis. It's driven by chaos, [38:23] court cases, and evasion of rules. And if this continues, we're going to be left with 30 to 50 teams in [38:31] essentially a mini-NFL. And the victims will be the fans who see their favorite teams, storied teams [38:42] and programs disappear, and hundreds of thousands of student-athletes who will lose scholarship [38:51] opportunities. Some might disagree. I will say I've been gratified since we introduced this bill last [38:58] week that response has been overwhelmingly positive. But there have been some critics who say they don't [39:05] want Congress involved. They think things are fine. They think the powers that be can fix whatever [39:12] ails college sports. And if you want the status quo, if you think that college sports can fix itself, [39:17] then you need to defend the alternatives to passage of this bill. The House of Representatives tried [39:26] multiple times to pass a bill. Unfortunately, it failed repeatedly. The Protect College Sports Act [39:34] is the only bipartisan bill out there. It is the last, best hope we have to save college sports. [39:43] So my first question to the panel is, what happens if we do nothing? There's a lot of expertise [39:54] on this witness panel. Help us look into the future. If Congress fails to act, if we get locked up in [40:01] partisan gridlock and we just yell at each other, which sadly we're very good at, what happens to college [40:07] sports three, four, five years from now? And I open it up to anyone who wants to answer that. [40:14] Well, Senator, I'll start by simply saying that looking at the trends that are going on at the [40:23] moment, if we think about the micro trends, which are higher education itself, higher education has [40:29] lost the trust of the American people in many ways. Not as many students are going into universities. [40:38] We have we have a demographic cliff. We've got all of these issues. So on the macro level, [40:46] and then all of the issues concerning the fact that our research really is what sustains us in terms of [40:52] competition and an international level. Without solving this problem, many of those issues are going to be [41:02] also written large because athletics represents such an important way for us to tell our story. [41:09] I don't think of I don't think of athletics as being simply games being played. I mean, I do enjoy them, [41:15] but I think about it as a way for a university to tell its story about the quality of its institution, [41:21] about its research, about its students, about the things that are going on. And with at the moment, [41:27] the chaos will simply prevent all of that from happening. It will be a significant blow to the [41:33] higher education system, let alone to college athletics. I would add to Senator Cruz, and I [41:40] certainly agree with Gordon. I think if it continues to go down this path, as I like to reference of kind [41:46] of a financial train, and like I think everybody up here, we adamantly believe that student athletes [41:53] ought to be compensated and should have legitimate NIL compensation, of course. But you're going to [41:59] see certain schools invest maybe almost singularly in certain sports. And if you take football, for [42:05] instance, no matter what, if you continue to have all of your resources pulled into football with [42:11] with escalating roster fees, and not knowing where that ends, I believe the inevitable outcome is there's [42:18] going to be a small handful of schools that will differentiate themselves from other and play [42:24] football at a super league level. And I don't think it's good for college football to be a mini NFL. [42:30] That's not the spirit of college football. That's not what college football is about. [42:34] I think it would look far more like a JV football professional league than everything that makes college [42:39] football so special. And if certain schools pour all of their resources into football or to men's [42:45] basketball or to women's basketball, what I said in my opening has to happen even at very well [42:52] positioned schools, you're going to have to de-emphasize Olympic sports and women's sports. [42:57] And so we have to kind of right this road, put some regulations around it, restore some sanity, [43:04] preserve the student athlete experience, and make sure that we can chart a healthy sustainable future. [43:12] Well, and you talk about the virtues of college athletics. As you know, I had the great joy of coming [43:17] to Notre Dame and last year for the A&M Notre game, not meaning to rub salt in the wound, but you did [43:23] come to College Station and whip her ass the year before. But I will say seeing Touchdown Jesus, [43:32] it was a bucket list and the culture at Notre Dame and Alabama and so many schools is incredible. And [43:41] your institution does have one of the iconic sports movies to ever be made, Rudy, which is not about an NFL [43:48] player. It's not about a guy who's like, you know, an all-time great. It's about someone with heart [43:55] that can through sports achieve something extraordinary. And Ms. Gould, the Pac-12 has had a [44:04] tough few years. What did the Pac-12 learn about conference realignment and the greater college [44:16] sports ecosystem from your experience leading the Pac-12 during what has been a very turbulent time? [44:21] Well, thank you for the question. It has been a challenging few years, but we are launching a [44:29] new league on July 1 and we're really excited about that on behalf of our student-athletes. [44:34] Look, I think in part what I learned and Lance mentioned this in his testimony was what can happen [44:42] when you don't keep the well-being of student-athletes at the center of your decisions. And what has [44:50] transpired not just with the Pac-12 but crossed a lot of conference realignment and a lot of change [44:56] that's happened in our system is the well-being of student-athletes is no longer at the center [45:02] because of the economic pressures that we're dealing with. We now have Olympic sports student-athletes [45:09] traveling coast to coast for contests. We have student-athletes that never show up at an in-person [45:17] class on their campus anymore and are completely missing out on campus life. So I think for me, [45:25] you know, when I look back on all of it and how everything transpired, I think we need to make sure [45:31] that we always remember who we are here to serve and that the decisions that we make while there are [45:37] business ramifications are decisions about the lives of the young people on our campuses. Thank you. [45:43] Ranking Member Cantlow. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to start with you, Mr. Holtenclaw. I know you're [45:50] no longer a Husky, but thank you for that championship game and season in 2024. I think you told my staff [45:58] one of the reasons why you transferred is that you had three different coaches in three years. Is that [46:03] right? Yes, that's correct. So I think Ms. Gould just said the effect on students and people don't [46:09] realize that then in this arms race of money and coaches transferring that the students, I mean, how can [46:17] you be, how can you learn any system or a coach or synchronicity if you have three different coaches in [46:24] three years? Well, like you say it, it is definitely a difficult task. I will like to explain a little [46:33] bit. My first year, I got recruited by one coaching staff and then when I got there, that coaching staff [46:39] was no longer there. New coaching staff comes in, played with that staff, and then a new staff comes [46:44] in after that. I then transfer, have another staff there, one year there, another staff leaves. So again, [46:52] it just kind of ties back into people staying and leaving and kind of the leadership portion [46:59] that's really important when it comes to the team. That leadership portion is so important. It [47:05] drives the team, it keeps the team together. It holds them tight together and creates that real family [47:11] bond that comes in when you're playing college athletics. It's extremely important to how the careers [47:18] of these young men and women go out and how they're developed in their time in college athletics. There's [47:24] so much that goes on with life development, that goes on with your education, that goes on with your [47:28] life experiences, and I feel like that leadership portion being strong in a system and in a program [47:34] is extremely important. So when pieces move around a lot, it can alter that sometimes. Well, it seems to me [47:40] that this is one of the centerpieces that we're losing. I think all of us up here believe in competition, [47:45] in real competition. But I think we love the fact that college athletics has put so much focus on [47:52] developing teams who are successful because they build a team and not because they have a billionaire [47:58] in their back pocket. And I think that that's what we're facing here right now. Are we going to create [48:02] some rules here that puts people on some level of of equity and parity? Now, I wanted to bring this up [48:09] with you, Ms. Gould, because you've been very polite about this. I mean, the bottom line is WSU had a [48:14] $35 million hole blown in their $85 million college budget. Basically, that is the revenue [48:21] that was taken out of the PAC-12. And I think the reason why Senator Cruz and I have a letter from [48:26] the Big Ten and the Big 12 and the ACC is because they think that that's what's going to happen to [48:33] them next, that somebody is going to come in and rearrange the deck chairs of those conferences, [48:38] steal the eyeball schools, and then basically leave everybody with everything else. Now, I believe in the [48:43] rivalry of the PAC-12. I believe in the historic, you know, Rose Bowl competitions and the unbelievable [48:53] rivalries between all of these West Coast schools. And it's been phenomenal. But now, WSU, instead of [49:00] having a $35 million media budget, has a, I think, $10 or $12 million media budget. So are we just going to [49:08] let this continue to be this arms race? What do you think that we should do to make sure that we are [49:14] saving this? And then for you, Mr. Gee, I have a question because you were very clear about where [49:19] you think the alignment is. The alignment is with the new media companies. Even though we're losing [49:24] $5 billion, there are people that don't want to look at an option to create more revenue. And that the [49:29] schools. So I want to hear from you on that point. But Ms. Gould. Yeah, well, I appreciate that the act has [49:38] some conversations in there about what the future model should look like relative to scheduling and [49:45] relative to conference alignment and relative to the future model. I think we are at a crossroads where this [49:52] history that we have in our industry of everybody just poaching some other league based on media rights [49:59] dollars or whatever the driver might be. I think we have to take a step back and really think [50:06] broadly and creatively about what their future model should look like. And as I referenced earlier, [50:11] because it has impacts on other institutions in these states, and because it has practical impacts on [50:18] student athletes, I really look forward to the work that the commission will do around this. And to be [50:25] creative and innovative, maybe we look at regionalizing Olympic sports to try to keep student athletes at [50:30] home. But I think now is the time for us to think about the role of conferences and what the structure [50:35] looks like moving forward. Mr. Mr. Ghee, has the current system failed? Absolutely. That's the reason we're here [50:43] today. I mean, we would not be having this hearing if there, if we had a system that was working. And so what do we, [50:50] what, what do you think that on this notion of, of why university presidents didn't understand that ADs [50:58] and conferences were taking us down a different direction that was going to be so painful? [51:04] Yeah, I, I think that I've always said that there are kind of three, third rails for university [51:11] presidents. One is a university home, others athletics and, and hospitals. And I think that so many [51:16] presidents want to stay somewhat distant from college athletics, because there are a lot of [51:22] issues that surround that. I think. But hasn't that cost us a lot of money? It's costing us five [51:28] billion dollars. It has cost us a lot. And it's causing Mr. Holtenclaw, he, he, he wants an experience [51:34] that, that coach Saban said that that's why he coaches, because he wants to build that. And he can't [51:40] get that because now we're, he's getting a new coach every, every other year. You're absolutely right. And [51:46] that's the reason that I'm here today. You know, I should be playing canasta on a beach. I'm 82 years [51:51] of age, but, but instead I've, I've, I'm, I'm a convert as, as having been a university president for [51:59] so long, I, I, I realized that what we really have to do is we really have to think about universities [52:05] having an obligation to each other, rather than this kind of Darwinian approach that we're, that we're [52:10] taking. And, and I'll be just very honest. I think that, uh, we have turned over too much power to [52:17] commissioners. Uh, they have, uh, they have a very, uh, they have a very limited notion of what, what it [52:23] should be about. The word student is not in their, in their, uh, lexicon. The word athlete is and the [52:30] word money. And, uh, this is a, this is an issue that we have to get at. And I don't, I don't mean to throw them under a bus, [52:36] although I just did, but what I, what, what I do mean to say is the fact that I think that university [52:43] presidents need to take charge of this issue. And I believe that they will, you know, I, I think about [52:48] my friends in the PAC 12 and are in, not in the PAC 12, you're, you're really good. I was, I, I think, [52:56] I think about in the big 10 and the, and the SEC. I mean, I know, I know most of those presidents. [53:00] They're really smart people. They're wonderful people. Half of them have worked for me, but, uh, but, [53:06] but we need to have an opportunity to really have those presidential discussions because [53:11] this is so simple. We have a revenue problem. Either we grow the pie or we destroy everything [53:19] that we're about. It's pretty damn simple. Well, I don't care anything about your [53:22] height because you just packed a punch. So thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [53:27] Thank you. I'll now recognize my, my friend and, and, and partner in this bill, Senator Schmidt, [53:33] who I will note is, is the, the single best baseball player in the U S Senate. [53:38] Although to be fair in the Senate, that's not a terribly high bar. [53:41] I was going to say, it's a low bar. It is a low bar, maybe basketball too, Senator Cruz, [53:46] you know, you know, um, uh, no, but okay, your time has expired. [53:51] Um, thank you. I want to thank Senator Cruz and Senator Cantwell. Um, you know, my journey in [53:57] working with both of them and, and Senator Cantwell on the sports broadcasting act started about six [54:01] months ago. And, and I think that, um, all of you being here today, lending your voice, uh, to the [54:06] challenges and the opportunities ahead are very important. I think about people have asked me why [54:11] I've gotten so involved in this and I've thought about it, uh, more recently, you know, sort of the [54:17] why. And I think that sports in general has, has provided me so many opportunities with what this [54:22] relationship building or just sense of community as a former college athlete myself, I think of the [54:28] the lessons that I learned about, um, character and determination and grit and teamwork. And it [54:36] didn't matter who the guy, you know, where he came from, his race, his religion, that was your teammate [54:41] and you had a goal and you wanted to accomplish something. There's so many great lessons to be [54:46] learned in life through college athletics. And I truly believe that we are on the precipice of that [54:52] going away in large part, not, not altogether, but as you've heard today, maybe for a much more [54:57] limited number of people. You certainly won't have 500,000 student athletes being able to learn [55:01] those lessons every year. Uh, it'll be something very different, something very different that [55:06] we've gotten accustomed to. And I think that college sports, college football in particular, [55:11] I think is such a uniquely American institution and it really is worth fighting for. It's worth [55:17] preserving, but that is not going to happen by itself anymore. The system now is, as coach Saban said, [55:22] is a, a Ferrari going a hundred miles an hour and somebody needs to tap the brakes. And people have asked me, [55:28] why is Congress getting involved in this? And it's a legitimate question. If you would have asked me [55:32] this three years ago, I would ask the same question. Why in the world would the federal [55:36] government have anything to do with college sports? Well, the truth is Congress is the only entity on the [55:43] planet that can provide the antitrust exemption status to empower a governing body to set the rules [55:51] and to enforce the rules and to have a five-year eligibility standard, to have a one-time or two-time, [55:57] whatever the transfer portal looks like. No one else can do it. It's, it is up to us. And if we don't do [56:04] it, I think if we're having a hearing two years from now, um, shame on us because it's going to look [56:11] a lot different and it won't be better. And I think as we've heard from the testimony, the way I view this [56:17] thing is there's two buckets. You have the governance issue and you have the revenue issue. The governance [56:24] issue is granting that authority to have the rules to protect the student athletes for there to be [56:28] enforcement. On the revenue side, um, look, the business model of college sports forever has been [56:35] basically you make money on your football program and it subsidizes all the other non-revenue sports, [56:40] the women's sports, the Olympic sports. We will lose out. If this thing continues down the path, [56:45] we will not have the same level of athletes competing in the Olympics. Women, I mean, my daughters, [56:50] I talk about the things that, that matter when you go back home. We're in a bubble here so much, [56:55] but when you go back home, this is what people talk to me about. They don't talk about some CRA we [56:59] just voted on. They say, what the hell's going on with college sports? They ask about aliens too, [57:04] to be honest, but, um, but they do ask about this. And I, in my daughter's volleyball games, [57:11] parents ask about this and you know, their daughters may have an opportunity. They may not [57:16] to, to, to, to play college volleyball. But I think for women, the Olympic sports, [57:22] this is critical. And so if that model is busted, if you're now losing money in your college football [57:26] program, you're just not gonna be able to do those things. Or if you're spending all your [57:29] money on your college football program, you're not going to do those things. You've heard even, [57:32] and look, I, I'm a, I love Mizzou. I love the SEC. It's what I watch on Saturdays. I watch other [57:38] football too, much to my wife's dismay and even late into the evenings. Um, but I want there to be [57:45] an opportunity for other schools to be able to compete and you've got the governance piece and [57:49] you've got the revenue side. And I think it's very important. This is totally voluntary for the [57:54] conferences to opt in. Um, nobody has to do it. I wouldn't want the SEC or the Big Ten to do it if [57:59] it didn't make sense for them. And this is totally voluntary. It sets a process up. It creates a lane [58:05] by which conferences could pool their media rights to get a better deal. And if you have, like right now, [58:12] it's NBA is half the eyeballs of college football. It's eight billion in revenue. College football, [58:17] all in is four billion in revenue. You can do the math and you can argue that maybe it wouldn't [58:21] be eight billion. Maybe it would be, maybe it'll be 10 billion. Maybe it will be 12 billion, but it's [58:25] more than they have now. That is the revenue that can subsidize the non-revenue sports for the future. [58:31] There are protections in place in this legislation to go do that. And so I just want to have an [58:36] opportunity for, um, these universities and these student athletes to continue to participate in [58:42] something that again is very American. Um, and it isn't, and we do so much partisan stuff here. It's [58:49] like Thunderdome a lot of times, right? You got your red jersey on and your blue jersey on. This should [58:53] not be one of those things. And so I appreciate you all being here. I wish I had time for questions, uh, [58:59] but I've run out of time now. Um, but you guys have, you guys have touched on a lot of the issues, [59:04] particularly on the collective. I think there's a lot of challenges that need to get fixed with the [59:08] collectives that are out there. It is an end around right now of, of the cap. There's no doubt [59:12] about that. There need to be safeguards there. And then I think on the sports broadcasting and providing [59:16] the opportunity for college football, like you do for the professional sports to have those unified [59:19] rights deals and grow the pie. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Senator Schmidt. I also, [59:25] I'm going to ask now unanimous consent to enter into the record 14 letters of support, uh, for Senator [59:31] Cantwell's and my legislation. These letters consist of 130 signatures representing over 65 universities. [59:39] Submitted by the Atlantic Coast Conference, the American Conference, the Big 12 Conference, [59:44] Conference USA, Saving College Sports, the President's Roundtable on Fixing College Sports, [59:50] Duke University, Kansas State University, University of Louisville, University of Nebraska, Syracuse [59:56] University, Virginia Tech University, University of Texas at San Antonio, University of Texas at El Paso, [1:00:02] the former chairman of the Board of Regents of the University of Texas at, at, at Austin, [1:00:07] without objection. So ordered. Senator Blunt, Blunt Rochester, you're recognized. Thank you, [1:00:11] Mr. Chairman and ranking member Cantwell. And also thank you to the panelists. Um, looking at the panel [1:00:18] before us, I noticed a very strong emphasis on high revenue football programs. So, Mr. Chairman, [1:00:24] as the committee continues, uh, its work on NIL legislation, um, I think it's important that [1:00:30] the committee also hear from experts that are representing female athletes, Olympic sports, [1:00:36] athletes at non-revenue generating institutions and HBCUs like Delaware State University. Um, [1:00:43] I also want to note that I've been hearing a lot of serious concerns about the bill from student [1:00:50] athletes and their families, labor unions and civil rights organizations. As the daughter of a former [1:00:58] student athlete, um, student athlete, um, my dad played basketball at Winston-Salem State University. Um, [1:01:04] he had to balance being a dad, his classes, as well as sports. He didn't have to balance some of the [1:01:10] things that students have to balance today, like NIL and transfer portals and things like that. Um, but as [1:01:18] the daughter of a former athlete, um, as a member of the Congressional Black Caucus, the former CEO of the [1:01:25] Metropolitan Wilmington Urban League and a lifelong member of the NAACP, I'm taking all of these concerns [1:01:32] very seriously. Um, my first question is, uh, to Mr. Holtzman. Um, I want to first thank you for being [1:01:40] here. Um, as you said, you are literally representing students of today and students of the future. So [1:01:47] thank you for, um, for representing and also for being on a panel. You came from Dorchester to the United [1:01:54] States Senate. So thank you first for, for being before us. Um, I, as I looked at this and also thank [1:02:00] you to your family. Uh, one of the things I've heard a lot from our families who are very, very concerned [1:02:06] at this moment. Um, this bill places no enforcement responsibilities with the Federal Trade Commission [1:02:13] or state attorneys generals, as I understand it. And instead it's largely, uh, leaves enforcement to [1:02:19] student athletes themselves, student athletes should be empowered to pursue legal options if they [1:02:26] believe their rights were violated. And I think we can all agree to that. Um, but they cannot shoulder [1:02:33] this burden alone. Um, so, uh, my question to you, uh, Mr. Holtzman is, are you aware that the bill [1:02:40] allows for attorney fees and litigation costs to be awarded to the prevailing party, meaning that the [1:02:46] student athlete who sues, if they lose, they can end up on the hook for the school's legal fees. And [1:02:53] do you think other student athletes and families, um, are, are aware of this or feel prepared or [1:02:59] supported? Uh, thank you, Ms. Rochester. I appreciate that. Um, the take that I would take on this [1:03:08] is that it's a huge part of educating our student athletes and letting them know what rights and what [1:03:15] resources they do have to use in these types of situations when they happen. And I fear that the [1:03:20] issue that we run into a lot of times is the fact that they don't get educated nor understand and [1:03:26] know the resources that they do have or the rights that they have until it's too late. They never know [1:03:31] what, where to go to, who to reach out to, or what rights they have to themselves until they have to [1:03:37] be in those types of situations and use them. So the issue that I see in that is that we do need to [1:03:42] educate our student athletes more about what resources are available to them so they can use [1:03:46] them and be aware of them before we even get into those situations. And then also, uh, educating our [1:03:52] student athletes on the rights that they have, uh, before they get into these situations so they're [1:03:55] not walking into these rooms blindly. And I fear that's probably our biggest issue when we come into [1:04:00] those situations. Yeah, I, I can totally agree. I think as a student athlete, there are already [1:04:06] responsibilities like classes, um, as well as other obligations. And that takes, that takes up time [1:04:13] and attention. And, you know, one of the questions really is, do you feel confident, um, that most [1:04:20] student athletes like yourself or your teammates have the experience or time or resources, um, to protect [1:04:28] themselves from these violations? You mentioned that it's necessary to have that education. And I know even [1:04:34] speaking to some of the parents who've reached out to me, one parent shared that, um, they were able [1:04:40] to take their child to different schools, but they had to do it on their own dime. And a lot of folks [1:04:46] don't have that kind of support. Do you think the majority of, uh, student athletes that you talk to [1:04:52] have the expertise or the time to protect themselves? The expertise part, definitely not. And that's [1:05:01] what I speak into a lot when I say we need to educate our student athletes on, again, their rights [1:05:06] and their resources that they have. Um, again, when you talk about families not having the means to be [1:05:13] able to travel and get to all these different places on their own, it's definitely a very difficult [1:05:17] situation to be into. Um, and I've experienced that on my own. Uh, we were limited to only a certain [1:05:24] amount of visits that could be paid for by a university. And then any other school that you wanted to see, [1:05:30] you had to carry out on your own dime. And in order to do that, your vision on all these different [1:05:36] schools and your perspective on these different universities gets limited to a very small window. [1:05:41] Um, again, that's going to be solely on yourself and your team and your family to have to coordinate [1:05:47] where you want to go to and what details and it's on research. And again, educating yourself on these [1:05:52] different universities so you can work within these limitations. Uh, it's hard to have to get there on [1:05:57] your own dime, but again, you have to be able to work within the standards and rules and regulations [1:06:02] and be able to figure out where you want to go to through your previous and personal research. [1:06:07] Thank you, Mr. Chairman, if you would indulge, if I could just ask one question to Mr. [1:06:11] Mr. Gee. Um, and I'll ask the question if we don't have time, he can submit for the record, [1:06:17] but Mr. Gee, Congress rarely grants antitrust exemptions. And only when we believe the beneficiary [1:06:23] will exercise the authority responsibly and an exemption is necessary. Given the NCAA's repeated [1:06:32] losses in antitrust lawsuits, any antitrust exemption warrants close scrutiny. So Mr. Gee, [1:06:38] what NCAA activities do you believe truly require antitrust protections? [1:06:45] Well, I think that, um, first of all, thank you. It's wonderful to meet you. I, we haven't met before. [1:06:50] Good to meet you as well. It's great to, to be here with you. Um, you know, I think that the real [1:06:56] issue for antitrust exemption is the ability to be able to, um, to, uh, uh, to collectively do our, [1:07:04] uh, have our rights put together. You know, the whole, the whole issue of course is, as I said earlier, [1:07:10] growing the pie. And by that, I mean, we have to be able to do what, what, frankly, what has happened [1:07:17] with the NBA, NBA and the NFL, uh, and others. And that, that is the exemption that I think is [1:07:24] the most important part of the antitrust activity. Thank you. I, I yield back and I understand, uh, [1:07:30] also that the Congressional Black Caucus has sent letters to the, the chair and the ranking member. [1:07:35] Um, this is just a really important issue at a very tough time. And so I hope that we take our time [1:07:43] and get this right. Thank you. And I yield back. Thank you. Uh, Senator Blackburn. [1:07:48] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to each of you for being here. As you can see, [1:07:53] there is a lot of bipartisan interest in doing something to correct this situation [1:08:00] that seems to be running off the rails. And quite frankly, I think Congress is late to the game on this. [1:08:08] I think the NCAA has really dropped the ball on this. They should have done something years ago. [1:08:15] And as you can see from the audience behind you, I think every intern, college intern that is up here [1:08:22] has tried to get in this room today so that they could see this. And I know that some from Tennessee [1:08:29] are saying go Vols and go Vanderbilt. Mr. Gee, they've had quite a season. We loved having you [1:08:36] in Nashville at Vanderbilt. Uh, Coach Sabin, I want to come to you. We've heard a lot about [1:08:43] navigating this marketplace. We're talking about a billion dollar marketplace right now [1:08:49] that basically has no framework, no constraints. Uh, Senator Cantwell and I had introduced the [1:08:56] Hustle Act, which put in place some baseline transparency standards by requiring these agents [1:09:04] to be registered. And we've heard from Mr. Holstclaw, sometimes you don't know what you don't know [1:09:11] until you're too far into this. And I really appreciated your opening testimony. So I'm glad [1:09:19] that provision is in the Protect College Sports Act. But I'd like for you to talk a little bit about [1:09:28] why there should be registration, why there should be transparency, why there should be [1:09:34] disclosure requirements that would help protect the student athlete from exploitation? Well, we [1:09:43] mentioned this before earlier in our testimony that I think it's imperative that student athletes, [1:09:50] their families, you know, have protection from agents. Right now, you don't have to be registered to [1:09:55] be an agent for a college player. So anybody on the street can do it. We don't have any regulation on [1:10:03] how much they can charge. Could their fees be capped? No question. Uh, I think that, you know, [1:10:10] if you look at NFL, they're three to five percent. We have college players paying 20 percent. Yeah. Uh, [1:10:17] we have agents that encourage players to get in a portal when it's really not in their best interest [1:10:21] to get in a portal, only to try to, um, stimulate more revenue for them, but really for themselves, [1:10:30] with no guarantee that they're going to get them more revenue. Uh, so I do think there should be [1:10:35] regulation. I do think there should be rules. I do think they should be registered. You know, [1:10:40] look, the NFL has a lot of really good rules and you have to be a registered agent with the Players [1:10:46] Association and the NFL to be able to represent players. And I think families and, um, student athletes [1:10:54] have the same, should have the same protection in terms of, um, the framework that we put around [1:11:03] agents for college kids. Okay. That's great. Mr. Holstclaw, do you agree with what he said? [1:11:07] And I want you also to talk, pardon me, about the financial literacy. Should that be a requirement? [1:11:19] Uh, I do agree to parts of what, uh, Mr. Saban is over there saying. He is definitely speaking truth [1:11:26] on to what happens in the lives of our student athletes when they have to deal with agents. [1:11:30] Uh, agents do encourage a lot of decisions for student athletes that they have signed to their [1:11:36] agency. And again, agents do get paid through what college athletes get paid. So them trying to [1:11:43] influence the decisions of student athletes will influence their pay. Um, again, I think this goes [1:11:49] back to the education piece of educating a lot of student athletes on the fact that your agent works [1:11:55] for you and that you don't work for your agent, uh, your agent is supposed to be helping you. [1:11:59] And again, those ridiculous amounts of money that's being taken from a lot of these student athletes is, [1:12:04] is a disservice to the game, you know? And, um, I've had great experiences when it comes to [1:12:12] me and, uh, an agent. Um, I've also seen the bad side of other, uh, teammates that I've had, [1:12:18] that I've had to deal with bad agents and have said, this agent hasn't done anything for me. [1:12:22] They're taking too much money. They're this, they're that. And there's definitely a issue with [1:12:27] anybody just being able to be an agent without those type of regulations. I agree that there [1:12:32] should be that. That's great. Ms. Google, I want to come to you on the transfer portal [1:12:37] and just have you talk for a minute about the damage that can be done, not only to [1:12:42] the school and the program, but to the athlete with this constant transferring. [1:12:47] Ms. Yes. Thank you for that question. And certainly while I think everybody at this table, [1:12:54] you know, supports freedom of movement and freedom of choice for student athletes, um, [1:12:59] with guardrails in place, I think there are so many consequences of what's happening right now. [1:13:04] Lance talked a little bit about how it feels to kind of jump from program to program and have [1:13:10] lots of transition, what it does academically. If I think we're going to start to see with graduation [1:13:16] rates around transfer student athletes, that our core purpose of tying college athletics to the [1:13:21] educational mission is being lost because of this hopping around from institution to institution. [1:13:27] It really does undermine the foundational team culture and team atmosphere. [1:13:33] When you don't know year to year, month to month, who your teammates are going to be. [1:13:37] And really these relationships that happen in these locker rooms are some of the richest [1:13:42] and most transformational relationships that a student athlete can have in their life. [1:13:46] So I think there are academic impacts. I think there are culture impacts to teams. [1:13:51] And I think there are mental health pressures too. When you have agents in your ear, you know, [1:13:56] kind of pressuring you to consider other options when maybe it's not in your best interest or maybe [1:14:01] you're happy where you are. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:14:06] Thank you, Senator Blackburn. And I will note, I think one of the most important parts of Senator [1:14:11] Cantwell's and my legislation is a registry and important protections for student athletes, [1:14:17] dealing with agents and capping agent fees at 5%, because I think particularly when you're dealing [1:14:21] with 17, 18, 19 year old student athletes, there is right now pervasive exploitation of those student [1:14:30] athletes. And one of the really important things we need to do is provide protections for those athletes. [1:14:35] Senator Hickenlooper. I'm not sure of this. [1:14:51] I will say for the record, that's the fastest I've seen anyone ascend the dais. [1:14:57] You know, these are difficult times. One has to take opportunities where they come. [1:15:03] Mr. Chair and Madam Ranking Member, thank you. You guys have worked, I know, hundreds of hours, [1:15:11] thousands of hours on this. And I recognize full well the enormity of the challenge and the differences [1:15:18] of opinion and that you have both really done remarkable work to get to this point. [1:15:26] I think most of us would agree. I think everybody here would agree that college sports are at their [1:15:33] best when they create opportunities for as many young people as possible. It's if you step back and look at [1:15:42] it. Capturing young men and women at a young age and engaging them in all variety of sports is critical. [1:15:52] I've been amazed at the power of Olympics to do that as a seedbed by which kids get engaged. [1:16:02] Obviously, Olympic and Paralympic pipelines run primarily through college sports, [1:16:07] and they play a really integral role in ensuring that the US, well, the US leads the world in medal [1:16:15] counts. Sounds ridiculous, but as part of our international brand, what differentiates us is [1:16:23] our success as an Olympic, you know, of a source of Olympic talent. The Protect College Sports Act [1:16:33] clearly creates protections for non-revenue generating sports, but it does make them conditional on [1:16:40] participation in a commercial arrangement. This means there is no guarantee that every Division I [1:16:45] school will be required to maintain their current scholarship slots and rosters for that great [1:16:53] diversity of sports that is represented by the Olympics. And again, these are Olympic sports and women's [1:17:00] sports is what I'm most concerned about. So, Ms. Gould, I'll direct my question to you. From your [1:17:07] perspective, is the risk of cuts and diminished opportunities for college non-revenue and Olympic [1:17:12] sports across Division I sports a real concern that needs to be addressed? Thank you for that question. [1:17:20] It absolutely is a real concern, and we saw some of the data earlier that Senator Cantwell shared. [1:17:26] You know, look, there have been incredible amounts of cuts already to Olympic sports, women's sports, [1:17:34] and if we don't start to put some expense controls in place, and there's more and more pressure to fund, [1:17:42] you know, football and men's basketball, the revenue generating sports at a higher level, [1:17:46] that money has to come from somewhere. So it's either going to come from the central campus and take funds [1:17:53] away from general students and other campus initiatives, or it's going to be taken away [1:17:59] from other programs within the athletic department. So I think we've seen the data. I think the threats [1:18:05] are real, and I certainly appreciate that the bill addresses this because it's an important issue for [1:18:10] our country and for the student athletes that are competing in those sports. Well, I appreciate that. [1:18:14] Thank you. And the statistics are, I mean, amazing when you actually look at the the relevance that [1:18:21] American people see for the supporting the Olympics. And this is one of those opportunities where if we [1:18:27] don't act now, we might lose an opportunity that puts us on a on a road to a place where we don't want [1:18:34] to be. So I look forward to working both with Senator Catwell and Senator Cruz on this going forward. [1:18:43] I can sneak in one more question. Mr. Holtzclaw, we all want student athletes to have the opportunity to [1:18:51] benefit from their hard work and talent. We want to make sure that they don't get taken advantage of. [1:18:56] And a number of people have described this a little bit. This Protect College Sports Act requires [1:19:03] disclosure of NIL compensation over $600 per year while making sure that it protects student privacy [1:19:11] and creates an NIL disclosure database of anonymized NIL data to make sure that families and [1:19:18] student athletes can assess fair market value. You can know what a fair decision is. So Mr. Holtzclaw, [1:19:26] do you think greater transparency around NIL compensation would help athletes negotiate on a [1:19:31] more level playing field, particularly those who may not have access to the same level of advisors or [1:19:38] resources as as some of the athletes at the bigger programs? Thank you. Again, I take this back to [1:19:47] educating our student athletes, and I think that's really the forefront of what we need to do. [1:19:52] And that's going to help us a lot. Student athletes are going to be able to publicly be able to go out [1:19:57] there and see different values and see if compare and contrast to see if what they're getting and what [1:20:03] their deals details are go along with what they think that they should be getting or what the fair market [1:20:09] value is out there for themselves. So that's just goes in and educates our student athletes and gives [1:20:15] them a public platform to be able to see that visually. Great. Thank you very much. I'm out of [1:20:20] time. Mr. Vivekwa, you're spared my question, as are all of you. I have so many questions to ask, [1:20:27] but maybe I'll be able to come back later. Thank you all for taking the time out of your busy lives [1:20:30] and being here. I yield back to the chair. Thank you, Senator Hickenlooper. And I will recognize that [1:20:37] Olympic sports, I know, are particularly important in your home state of Colorado. And I think one of the [1:20:42] really important parts of this bill is protecting Olympic sports and women's sports and non-revenue [1:20:48] sports. One of the tragedies we're seeing right now under the status quo is it seems like every single [1:20:53] week a different college is canceling women's sports, Olympic sports, non-revenue sports. [1:21:02] If we don't act, we're going to continue to see devastation. And I, for one, don't want to see an [1:21:09] Olympics where every gold medal goes to Russia and China. And Americans are not able to compete [1:21:15] because we've devastated the preparation of our Olympics athletes, which is in college sports. [1:21:21] I think that's one of the really compelling reasons for Congress to act and act in a bipartisan way. [1:21:27] So we can all cheer on a ton of American golds in the next Olympics. Senator Young. [1:21:37] Thank you, Chairman, for holding this hearing. Thank you to you and the ranking member for your [1:21:43] incredibly hard work, members of your staff. It's a really challenging issue. And it's just great to [1:21:51] be here today and be part of this. The future of college sports is at a crossroads right now. We [1:21:58] understand that. Congressional action is necessary to ensure that the NIL landscape is built on clear [1:22:05] rules, fair rules, rules that lead to a measure of predictability moving forward. We need to provide [1:22:12] protections for our student athletes and our universities alike and ensure the longevity of [1:22:20] not only college football and men's basketball, but our Olympic sports and our women sports as well. [1:22:29] Without a federal framework, the legal and operational uncertainty around this space will [1:22:34] only cause our academic institutions and our student athletes to suffer. However, [1:22:42] with any legislation Congress contemplates, we need to do our due diligence to ensure that it's going [1:22:48] to work as intended, hence this hearing today. In addition to many Hoosiers that are or will become [1:22:56] student athletes, I have a diverse group of engaged stakeholders on this issue based in my home state, [1:23:03] including the NCAA, US Track and Field, USA Gymnastics, USA Diving, and just a host of top-tier [1:23:13] universities, one of which I am glad is represented today at the witness table. And while these stakeholders [1:23:20] continue to review the legislation and consider how it will be effectuated and its impact on their own [1:23:27] activities, I'm hopeful this hearing will help clarify many of these considerations. [1:23:33] Mr. Bhavakwa, thank you again for your testimony here today. Last year, what we're calling the House [1:23:40] settlement was approved in the Northern District of California, establishing a new revenue sharing [1:23:48] structure to allow schools to provide direct financial benefits to athletes. The cap under this new [1:23:54] structure was set at $20.5 million per school for this past school year. Sir, can you speak to the [1:24:02] revenue caps under the House settlement, whether you believe they're adequate or if they need [1:24:09] some sort of adjustment to reflect the current reality when it comes to the revenue sharing landscape? [1:24:14] Mr. Thanks, Senator Young. I've been vocal, and you and I have had conversations over the course of the [1:24:20] last few years, but on this particular issue over the course of the last year. I think the House [1:24:24] settlement did many good things. I believe that the cap number in the House settlement is too low. I [1:24:32] believe we need to fix a more realistic cap. And I go back to my opening where there's this misnomer that [1:24:41] there's a cap. There is no cap. Right now you have a cap outlined by the House settlement and then you have [1:24:48] third-party NIL opportunities. So again, I view it as an equation of X being the cap, Y being the NIL space, [1:24:57] equaling the total spend on compensation. I think the more dollars that can be transferred into the cap [1:25:07] and paid directly by universities in an incredibly transparent way is going to help clean up the system. [1:25:14] So just to interject respectfully, because our time is limited, what's the risk of maintaining [1:25:22] artificially low revenue caps? And could there be risks of fraud or other deceptive means of obtaining [1:25:29] a competitive advantage? Yeah, I mean, I think the College Sports Commission is doing as good a job as [1:25:34] they can, but I think pushing money into that gray space of third-party collectives and NIL, that's in my [1:25:41] opinion, where most of the uncertainty and the abuse is. What I would love to see happen is establishing [1:25:48] a realistic cap. And if universities chose to exceed the cap, tying in some form of subsidy on a certain [1:25:57] percentage of the dollars, maybe it's 20 to 25 cents per dollar over the cap, that you have to reinvest in [1:26:03] Olympic and women's sports. And I think that would create not only some certainty and some stability, [1:26:08] but I think it would help preserve the future of Olympic and women's sports. I believe the cap is [1:26:13] too low right now. And as much as I admire so many provisions of the bill, I think the de minimis [1:26:19] amount of $600 is too low, unrealistic, and clogging the system. Just very briefly, Mr. Bavacqua, [1:26:26] I was encouraged but not surprised because we've spoken at length about this, but in your written [1:26:31] testimony, you talked about preserving the student-athlete experience, how important that is to remember that [1:26:39] they are students. Give me a very quick answer about how Notre Dame does that, make sure we preserve [1:26:45] the educational experience for student-athletes, and maybe how you think Congress should tackle this [1:26:50] question. Well, our student-athletes are just that. They are truly student-athletes. They go to in-person [1:26:55] classes on campus at Notre Dame. They're integrated with the student body. And when I talk to student-athletes, [1:27:01] regardless of the sport, whether it's football or rowing, softball, [1:27:05] I always try to convey to them that even if you make it and play professionally, and there's such [1:27:11] a small percentage of young men and women that can play professionally, but even if you make it, [1:27:18] if you're one of those chosen few, you're still going to be done at a young age. And if you don't [1:27:23] have that education, if you don't have that degree, you are going to have a very tough road ahead of you. [1:27:28] Take advantage of this time on campus to get an education, to meet people outside of your team, [1:27:34] outside of sports, build those connections, become part of the greater community of your university. [1:27:40] Because it's those relationships, that education, that academic curriculum, that's going to help [1:27:46] you lead a better life from the moment your sports career is over for the rest of your life. Because [1:27:50] sports ends for everybody. Such an important message. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, Senator Young. [1:27:59] And I will note one of the important things I think of this bipartisan legislation is that it provides [1:28:05] authority for enforcing the House settlement, but it also explicitly provides that the limitation in [1:28:11] that settlement can be modified and it can be raised as the parties decide. And that was something [1:28:16] important that Senator Cantwell and I wanted to include is not limit it, but let the parties raise it. [1:28:21] And so that is very expressly in the legislation. Senator Lujan. [1:28:26] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, everyone. Mr. Gee, I want to take a minute to brag about [1:28:32] some of the women's teams at the University of New Mexico. UNM women's golf has won 10 Mountain West [1:28:38] titles. Women's soccer, seven conference titles. Women's cross country, 15 titles. New Mexico State [1:28:44] University, women's basketball, six regular season conference titles. Softball, six regular season [1:28:49] conference titles. Volleyball, eight regular season conference titles. After years of absence on any [1:28:55] TV platforms, we started to see many women's sports get more coverage on television. My understanding is [1:29:01] that much of that coverage started because the conference leveraged college football rights to ensure [1:29:06] that networks also carried these non-revenue sports. Now, the bill we're discussing today seems to focus on [1:29:12] getting more revenue from college football. Now, Mr. Gee, if negotiators only focus on maximizing revenue [1:29:18] for college football, are you concerned that women's and other non-revenue sports within New Mexico and [1:29:23] other states will fall back to where we were 20 years ago, where very few games were available on [1:29:28] television? Well, thank you, Senator. Absolutely. This is one of the reasons that I'm here. Again, [1:29:35] unless we grow the pie, and this is the whole point, unless we grow the pie, we're not going to be able to [1:29:41] sustain really positive support for women's and for Olympic sports. That is the ultimate centerpiece, [1:29:53] in my view, of this legislation. It protects student athletes. It provides a structure that we've [1:30:00] needed to add. But most importantly, we've lost these cases, so we have no choice but to either [1:30:06] diminish any support for any of these programs, or we have to grow the pie. And that's what this does. [1:30:13] And it will, in my view, be very positive for women's sports and for Olympic sports, particularly. [1:30:23] Appreciate that, Mr. Gee. Mr. Holzclaw, one of my colleagues asked you a similar question, [1:30:28] but prior to transferring to Utah, it's my understanding you played three seasons at the [1:30:32] University of Washington. And during that time, you played maybe under three coaches. That's correct, [1:30:37] correct, sir? I played under two coaches and was recruited by a different staff there in high [1:30:44] school. Appreciate that. Now, what effect did playing under the different coaches have in your [1:30:48] years with your experience? What has changed, for my experience, is it changed the leadership and it [1:30:56] changed the culture of a program. Culture of a program, it's a big toll on [1:31:01] on the success of a program and success of the relationships built throughout that program. [1:31:08] Um, my first, my first two years in there, the culture in there was set for a while. We had a lot [1:31:15] of players in there that have played with each other and played under the same leadership and played under [1:31:20] the same, uh, coaching staff and culture for a long time. So coming in there, that culture was set [1:31:25] already and things, uh, rolled that same way. Uh, I would say the effect of changing that often [1:31:32] does change the trajectory and changing the leadership and the culture of a program. [1:31:37] Um, I would say it changes how things are in the locker room. I would say, uh, it changes people's [1:31:43] values. It changes how people move around a lot and it can, it can disrupt the consistency of how [1:31:49] things are run on a program. I appreciate that. And Mr. Chairman, ranking member, um, [1:31:54] I raise this issue because it seems to me that the market for coaches is a bit of a mess as well. [1:32:01] And salaries keep going up. And if a coach finds a better offer somewhere, [1:32:06] they could take a buyout from the school, or if they get fired, they get a golden parachute. [1:32:10] And all of a sudden taxpayers across the country are on the hook for this stuff. I mean, [1:32:15] no offense to the coaches here accomplished. And you know, while the, the coach that, that is here, [1:32:21] he doesn't leave programs. He just keeps winning championships. I want to encourage more of that. [1:32:26] And I certainly hope that when there's language in here that seems to restrict the movement of [1:32:31] student athletes, but coaches just can't leave mid season. I parody is parody. Fair is fair. [1:32:37] Treatment is treatment here. And I certainly hope that that's something that we could chat about and we [1:32:40] can work together to, to make sure that we can do something in that space. Um, I'm tired of buying [1:32:46] new jerseys for coaches in New Mexico. Cause you know, it's only good for a season. And then, [1:32:50] you know, I, I start washing cars with it and I want to stop doing that. I want to keep wearing them. [1:32:55] Um, Mr. Pevaqua, a major problem in college sports that have unregulated, uncertified college sports [1:33:01] agents. Um, I, I didn't realize they existed and I've been learning a lot more about this. Now these [1:33:06] so-called agents are exploiting college athletes and their families because they get paid for every [1:33:10] transaction, whether you're in, you're out, you, whatever it may be, there's dollars flowing there, [1:33:15] but then there's restrictions on, on everyone else. I don't understand that why the student athletes [1:33:19] are just getting bumped around, but I see a challenge here. So why is it important to have [1:33:24] a system in place to ensure that college sports agents are registered? [1:33:28] Yeah, I think, uh, I think it's a key provision in this bill. Uh, coach Saban said it well too. I mean, [1:33:34] so, Hey, there are good agents and there are bad agents, but young men and women, 17, 18 years old, [1:33:42] who are not used to negotiating with agents or not used to what it means to pay a fair and reasonable [1:33:48] commission are being taken advantage of around the country. We need a database, a registry for these [1:33:54] agents, a cap on their commission to make sure these young student athletes are not being taken [1:34:00] advantage of. Coach Saban also mentioned, it's often the agent who starts talking about putting a [1:34:08] particular student athlete into the portal, test your market value. You can get more money if you [1:34:14] go to that school or this school with no regard for the culture of a team with no regard for where [1:34:20] that young man or woman might academic journey. So we need to clean up that area and have a registry [1:34:28] and rules and regulations and that cap on their commission to make sure we're protecting our student [1:34:34] athletes. I feel incredibly strongly about that. Appreciate that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank [1:34:38] you for the time. Mr. Chairman, if I could just for since Senator Lujan asked about it, there is, uh, [1:34:44] Dr. Gee of the section of the bill that also says on media rights that, uh, these non-revenue sports [1:34:52] should be led out of comprehensive media contracts where, you know, Fox or ESPN buys the media rights, [1:35:00] but then doesn't do anything to promote the women's golf or, or anything. So it allows for those [1:35:07] entities. You either use those rights and promote them or you get to have them back as an institution. [1:35:14] And that I believe would really foster in this world. Uh, you know, I, do I think some volleyball [1:35:20] team or golf team or some of these teams? Well, look, that's an impressive record, right? And do I think [1:35:26] that they're going to make, uh, hundreds of millions of dollars? No, but do I think they can make [1:35:31] millions of dollars if somebody lets them go promote themselves? Yes. And so we definitely want to free, [1:35:37] if you will, these, uh, individual teams within an institution to go pursue making their, their [1:35:44] program more successful this way. Okay. Senator, I'll just respond by saying when I was, [1:35:49] I was chairman of the big 10 when we created the big 10 network. And that was the whole purpose was to [1:35:55] create an opportunity for all of the sports to be shown. Now I'm not, uh, contending that that's [1:36:00] what we ought to do right now, but I do believe that that started the ball rolling of many people [1:36:07] interested in volleyball and golf and a variety of other things that had not been shown for a long time. [1:36:12] Well, but I think the problem is that the big 10 and the SEC just having that brand on the channel [1:36:18] doesn't do anything. And the networks, they're looking for the big moment. They're looking for the [1:36:23] Saturday big game of the week. And that's what they're putting all their money in. But I guarantee [1:36:27] you that success of those New Mexico programs, just like we have a couple of, uh, world record [1:36:32] holders at, at UW track who like, I would love to see these, these girls and the fact that they are [1:36:38] world record, uh, athletes. So I, I think freeing schools to go these, uh, non-revenue sports to be [1:36:47] able to go pursue their own media rights is also a valuable part of the section of this bill. [1:36:52] And I agree with that. Thank you. And I will say this, this provision saying that, that if there's [1:36:59] a comprehensive media deal and if there's a particular sport that's not being utilized, [1:37:05] that's not being put out to the public, that the rights revert back, uh, that this was, I think, [1:37:10] a very clever idea. It was entirely Senator Cantwell's idea, but, but I thought it was very clever to [1:37:16] expand the ability. Look, it's the father of two daughters. I, I want to see women's sports get as [1:37:20] much, uh, as many eyeballs as, as much support as possible. And that's a really important piece. [1:37:26] And I'll, I'll say additionally, Senator Lujan, um, on your very good questions, you talked about the, [1:37:31] the problem of, of coaches leaving, uh, and leaving during the season. And one of the provisions in this [1:37:37] bill that's gotten a lot of attention has been widely referred to as the Lane Kiffin rule, uh, says that, [1:37:42] that, that coaching staff, that, that a school cannot recruit coaching staff or hire coaching [1:37:47] staff during the season or during the playoffs. And I got to say, it's not fair to play players. [1:37:52] If you're heading into the playoffs and suddenly right before you go into a game, your coach leaves [1:37:58] and goes to arrival that that's not fair. And so what Senator Cantwell and I did is adopted the role [1:38:04] the NFL has, which is you can recruit coaches, just do it in the off season. Don't do it while, [1:38:09] while kids are playing for them. Don't pull the rug out from them in the middle of the season. [1:38:13] I think that's a much more fair way to do it. And, and that, that's a lot of what, [1:38:18] what we try to do in this bill is, is find common sense rules that would protect athletes and protect [1:38:24] the system. Uh, and let's see who, uh, Senator Curtis. Thank you. Uh, Mr. Holtz-Clause, [1:38:34] my colleague Alita too, you've played for a lot of different teams and this wouldn't be a good sports [1:38:39] hearing without a little banter. So I'm kind of curious, what is your favorite team? [1:38:44] And just in case you need any help, I wouldn't call any team my favorite, but I do represent who [1:38:52] I currently play for is the university of Utah. You, you should be in politics. Okay. That's [1:38:58] damn diplomatic. And Senator Curtis, you better be worried that he, that he may file for, for elections. [1:39:03] Oh, he looks far more comfortable in a, in a uniform than he does in that suit. I'll tell you that. [1:39:10] So let me start with you and kind of, uh, follow up on this question in this different, uh, frameworks, [1:39:17] you've seen different state laws, institution rules, and constant legal authority changes. [1:39:22] So from your perspective as a student athlete, what would be the benefit of having one clear [1:39:27] national framework for naming likeness transfers, eligibility, athletic protections, rather than [1:39:34] asking athletes to figure out a different system, depending on where they play. [1:39:37] I think what it does is it creates standardization and it creates regulation and kind of keeps [1:39:47] everybody in a set standpoint of what we can and cannot do. Uh, I feel like it makes things [1:39:54] a little bit easier in some senses. And, um, the way I would look at it is to look at things in a [1:40:01] situation of eliminating the gray area a lot of times. And that, uh, is a big part of things that we [1:40:09] should do when we're looking at a lot of people that don't really have the knowledge always of [1:40:15] what they can and cannot do and don't really know the legal frameworks, everything all the time. [1:40:19] Good. Thank you. Uh, Mr. Bubaka, uh, Utah will host the 2034 Olympic games. I'm sure you're aware [1:40:25] of that. And many of the athletes who represent team USA in those games are being developed right now [1:40:31] through college sports in Utah. That pipeline includes skiers, runners, and a host of other athletes [1:40:36] who rely on college programs to help them achieve their dreams as an athletic director responsible [1:40:41] for making real budget decisions. What signals from Congress would incentivize schools to not only [1:40:47] preserve non-revenue sports, but expand opportunities for these athletes? [1:40:52] Well, yeah, thank you for that question. And I am a tremendous fan of the Olympic movement. [1:40:58] I go back to my days at, at NBC sports, uh, which has been at the home of the Olympics for so long. [1:41:04] And I've been fortunate enough to go to many Olympic games. Some of our proudest moments are on campus [1:41:10] or when our student athletes represent our country in the Olympics. That's a moment of pride for Notre [1:41:16] Dame. It's obviously a moment of pride for their friends and families. I think there does, uh, there [1:41:22] does need to be real teeth in the bill where you are going to protect Olympic sports and the Olympic [1:41:29] movement. Because without universities maintaining and investing in their Olympic sports, [1:41:36] they're the U.S. Olympic movement will take a major step backwards. And I think you really, [1:41:42] quite frankly, need to hold our feet to the fire. And if you're a university is going to invest so heavily [1:41:48] in the sports like football and men's and women's basketball, I do believe there needs to be a quid pro quo, [1:41:56] where we are now going to also demand that you don't take your foot off the gas. You continue to [1:42:01] keep those Olympic programs because the overwhelming majority of young student athletes, uh, young men [1:42:07] and women student athletes in this country are involved in, in Olympic sports. Yeah. Do you think [1:42:12] this bill that we're looking at does that and sends those signals? I think it sends those signals. [1:42:17] I think, you know, as, as, as Senator Cruz and, and Senator Cantwell said, I think the bill is a work [1:42:22] in progress. I think you could do a stronger job, uh, a more straightforward job, a clearer job of [1:42:29] protecting Olympic sports, depending on where the, the remainder of the bill heads. Thank you. [1:42:34] Coach Saban, I was moved by something you said in your written testimony. You talked about young [1:42:39] people coming into a program, needing structure, discipline, coaching, academic support, and accountability, [1:42:46] and leaving with a degree, a career, a family, and a better chance to be successful in life. [1:42:50] It reminds me of a comment by BYU head football coach. I suspect, you know, Kalani Sataki, [1:42:56] where he said that the best part of the job is to coach great leaders. That is exactly what college [1:43:01] athletes should be about. Those life-changing experiences are not limited to football. [1:43:05] They also occur in everyday sports that generate no revenue and have few fans, [1:43:10] yet transform. And yet they do transform the lives of young people. So my question is this, [1:43:14] as Congress looks at the future framework of college athletics, what do we need to get right [1:43:20] to ensure we not only protect, but help grow non-revenue sports? [1:43:24] Yeah. Well, I think, uh, a lot of the things that we've discussed here today, uh, are certainly [1:43:30] imperative. I think in the future, I think if we keep going in the direction that we're going and making [1:43:35] these huge investments in football and basketball, in terms of paying players, which is going up and up and [1:43:42] up and up, that we should change their comment from student athlete to athlete that's a student, [1:43:49] because we're going to have professional sports teams that are sponsored by colleges and universities. [1:43:55] I mean, that's what's going to happen, because we're going to be paying a player so much. [1:44:00] And, um, and I really think the only way to remedy this is, you know, we have competitive conferences, [1:44:08] we have competitive teams, we have competitors involved in trying to create an advantage for [1:44:15] themselves in every way that we can. And in college athletics, we have no like legislative [1:44:23] branch of government that says, this is what the rules are. This is, I'm the commissioner of the NFL, [1:44:30] and this is what you're allowed to do. This is a salary cap. This is how we draft players. This is how we [1:44:35] create parity. This is how we create revenue, so that we can maintain a level of competition in all [1:44:41] sports, Olympic sports and women's sports as well. We don't have that in college. So we talk about [1:44:46] conferences getting dismantled and all that, that would never happen if you had somebody that was [1:44:51] the head of all this. Thank you. Right now, you know, like they say back in West Virginia, it's not [1:44:57] about the money, it's about how much. And now everything that happens is about how much money can we create? [1:45:03] And are we actually deploying that money in the right places to maintain student athletes' well-being? [1:45:12] Regrettably, I am out of time. But thank you very much. Go Utes. [1:45:16] I think I've been out of time about all day. [1:45:20] Thank you, Senator Curtis. Senator Kemp. [1:45:24] Thank you, Chairman. And I'm grateful for the opportunity to have this and for the witnesses here [1:45:28] to come out. As we're talking about this hearing and talking about protecting college sports, but [1:45:34] the title also says supporting our student athletes. And we've talked about that a number of different [1:45:37] ways. But what I want to focus in on is about injuries and about recoveries in that way and [1:45:42] just what is provided when it comes to our student athletes there. So, Mr. Bivacqua, I guess I want to [1:45:48] just start with you just to get a sense of what are some of the sports in particular that have the [1:45:54] highest injury burden that you see in your program? Well, it varies. You know, [1:45:59] all sports have the ability to be injured for a young man or a young woman. You know, [1:46:05] obviously, you think about contact sports. You think about ACL tears that seems to be so prevalent [1:46:11] in so many of women's sports around the country. But I think it's a combination of what we really [1:46:16] need to focus on. And one of the things I was incredibly encouraged about in the bill is this [1:46:21] emphasis on extended medical insurance. So there has to be an emphasis on strength and conditioning. [1:46:29] That is so important, that transition from high school to college, nutrition, the use of data [1:46:36] analytics, diet, rest, all of that. It's not only injuries, but it's injury prevention. [1:46:42] You have to be focused on injury prevention. And then when there are injuries, because inevitably there [1:46:47] will be how do you get that student athlete healthy again, not just to play a sport, but healthy again [1:46:52] to live their lives. One of the negative consequences, in my opinion, of the transfer portal [1:47:00] is there's not that consistency of the maturation of a young student athlete at a particular school [1:47:07] with particular doctors and staffs and trainers to know that young person's journey from an 18-year-old [1:47:15] to a 22-year-old. That also helps the prevention of injuries. You're surrounded by your doctors. [1:47:21] You're surrounded by your trainers. You're surrounded by your counselors. [1:47:25] If you're just jumping around from school to school every year, you're starting from from ground zero. [1:47:30] The continuity of care is what you're talking about. [1:47:33] Coach Saban is one of the best football coaches in the history of the country and the Mount Rushmore of [1:47:38] football coaches. I think one of the other reasons he was so successful is there was such consistency [1:47:44] at Alabama for so many years. Not just who's your head coach, who are your trainers, [1:47:49] who's your strength coach, who can you go to for an opinion, their doctors. [1:47:53] So we're looking at, as you said, injury prevention and strength training. [1:47:58] We're looking at the immediate response to injuries as well as the extended medical care [1:48:03] beyond their time. Is that sort of the continuity? [1:48:06] Senator Kim, just getting to know the person, whether you're his or her academic advisor, [1:48:12] or trainer or nutrition coach, getting to know the person, building a relationship [1:48:17] with the person leads to a healthy life and a healthy time period for them at a university. [1:48:22] I would hope all of us can agree that that's what we want. I guess what I'd like to just ask you [1:48:26] kind of bluntly here is, is that being provided equally across all college sports? Are some of the [1:48:34] higher revenue generating sports getting more resources when it comes to injury prevention, [1:48:41] the care, the extended medical? We say at Notre Dame, listen, if you're the starting quarterback [1:48:47] at Notre Dame or the third string outfielder, right fielder on the baseball team or the softball team, [1:48:54] your life is going to be different. Whether that's the amount of attention you get, your visibility, [1:49:01] your NIL opportunities. But there are certain things that should be non-negotiable. [1:49:06] One of those is health, nutrition, safety, injury prevention, mental health resources, academic [1:49:14] resources. Whether you're a superstar or never going to see the field, those things need to be [1:49:20] non-negotiable. I appreciate that, you know, about your institution. Ms. Gould, I guess I just want to [1:49:25] ask you just, you know, you see a wider lens here. Is that something that's a guarantee everywhere? [1:49:31] And just what is it that we should be thinking about on it? I know in this bill, I believe that [1:49:37] there's about $60 million for a fund in terms of being able to do that. I'm just trying to get a [1:49:42] sense of, like, what's enough? Like, what do we need to do to make sure that our student-athletes [1:49:47] across the board get fairness in terms of how they're treated when it comes to injuries and their health? [1:49:52] Ms. No, I appreciate the emphasis in this bill around student-athlete health and well-being. [1:49:58] And I agree with Pete. I do think that sports medicine services and kind of holistic wellness [1:50:05] support for student-athletes is a priority across all of Division I. And I would hope that all of our [1:50:11] leaders on our campuses make that a consistent application across all of their student-athletes. [1:50:17] I think the protections that are codified in this bill are really, really, really important, both in [1:50:22] terms of the time on the campus and what happens post-eligibility when they leave our campuses. [1:50:28] I would say that as the spending and the arms race continues to spiral out of control, this becomes [1:50:35] harder and harder for institutions that don't have resources. So I appreciate that this issue has been [1:50:41] brought to the fore through this act. And I think it's an important one that we protect for all student-athletes [1:50:46] in all sports at all levels. Thank you. And I yield back. And I thank Senator Kim for his very good [1:50:53] questions. And I will say one of the really important parts of this bill that Senator Cantwell and I worked [1:50:57] hard on is providing what I think will be landmark protections for athletes, both health and safety [1:51:04] standards, so you don't have a kid with a concussion, being forced to play, providing health insurance [1:51:10] coverage for injuries across the board, men and women for injuries or diseases that come from playing sports, [1:51:18] not just while they're playing, but for five years after they play, no out-of-pocket expenses for those [1:51:24] athletes. That's provided in the bill. And as you noted, there's also a $60 million medical trust fund [1:51:30] that is provided in part for schools like HBCUs that have vibrant athletic programs but don't [1:51:39] necessarily have the budget to provide that health insurance coverage. And so that trust fund is created [1:51:44] there to ensure that we're protecting athletes, not just the superstars that are on TV every day, [1:51:50] but the student-athletes across the board. And that's something Senator Cantwell and I both worked hard [1:51:54] on. I will note for the record that Coach Saban had a pre-existing condition, pre-existing commitment, [1:52:03] talking about health insurance, sorry, that he had a pre-existing commitment, and so he's going to have to [1:52:10] leave in a couple of moments. So I've asked senators on both sides if they had any questions specifically [1:52:15] for Coach Saban, and I'm going to recognize Senator Fisher and Senator Budd for one question each for [1:52:21] Coach Saban, and then he's going to have to leave. And then after that, I'll recognize Senator Moreno, [1:52:25] who's next up. But Senator Fisher, you're recognized for this question. [1:52:28] Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Coach, for being here today. [1:52:33] I have a question on scheduling. When you played Nebraska, we were a member of the Big 12, and though now we're a [1:52:39] member of the Big 10, the Protecting College Sports Act proposes changes that would have major [1:52:47] influences on conferences. And I've heard concern in particular about how a prohibition on conferences [1:52:55] expanding applies only to the Big 10 and the SEC, and I hope this provision can continue to be [1:53:03] discussed by this committee. Additionally, the bill would significantly influence the scheduling [1:53:09] of football games towards historical rather than current opponents. And though Nebraska has now been in [1:53:17] the Big 10 over 15 years, we do have very few conference members who would constitute that historic [1:53:26] component that's defined by the bill. So, Coach, can you share how else Congress could go about [1:53:33] preserving those historic matchups while better considering the significant conference realignment [1:53:41] that we've seen take place over the last many decades? Well, thanks for the question, but I've always had the [1:53:49] opinion that conferences who historically in the past have been regional in terms of how those conferences [1:54:00] sort of operated. I think the Southeast Conference has been able to maintain that. Other conferences have not. [1:54:07] I think it is in the best interest of student athletes that we do have regional conferences. [1:54:12] I do think a lot of the traditional rivalries come regionally, but I also think that I was always a proponent of [1:54:21] everyone having to play division one schools. Like I was always for having nine or 10 SEC games and two out of conference games of division one. [1:54:31] Because, you know, we talked about trying to create more revenue. Well, in creating more revenue, you have to create better inventory that is going to interest people to watch. [1:54:41] So therefore, the more really good games that you have as inventory, the more people are going to watch, the more revenue goes up, the more we can, you know, protect Olympic and not [1:54:51] revenue sports. So I do think the conferences should be regional in nature. But I do think we should play games of national interest. [1:55:00] I don't think it's really fair that to someone playing at USC, they have to go to Rutgers to play whether it's a field hockey game or a football game. So I think that's crazy. [1:55:12] If I could have just one follow up question. When you talk about historic matchups, could you explain to us your lack of wins against Coach Osborne's Cornhuskers? [1:55:23] I will tell you a story about Coach Osborne. You know, he's the best. He's the best. My first game at Michigan State, my first game as a head coach, we played Nebraska when they were winning national championships. [1:55:36] And he was the coach. This was 1995. And we got beat like 56 to seven. And he put his arm around me after the game. And he said, you're not as bad as you think. [1:55:47] And we actually went six and five. So he was right. Thank you, sir, very much. All right. Thank you, Senator Budd, very quickly for your one question, because we're going to. [1:55:57] Thanks, Chairman. Coach Saban, I want to ask you about some of this legislation's provisions regarding transfer and eligibility rules. [1:56:03] So if Congress were to prescribe rules and law for the NCAA or any other similar body to adapt for themselves, it can make the rulemaking needed to adapt to inevitable changes that are going to come in college sports. [1:56:16] It's going to make that more difficult in the future. So how do you think coaches would adapt their approach to player development if the rules were harder to change? [1:56:25] And would you be concerned about that reduced flexibility? Well, I, you know, we talked about players transferring and having one opportunity. [1:56:33] If they graduate, they have another opportunity. If there's extenuating circumstances, they could have an opportunity. [1:56:39] We don't want to see student athletes get trapped in a bad situation. But I think multiple transfers, you know, affect a lot of things. [1:56:47] It affects ability to graduate. It affects development. It affects what you what you can major in and what you can be eligible at at the next school. [1:56:55] So I think multiple transfers have a lot of issues that are not necessarily in the best interest in terms of development, being a part of a team. [1:57:06] You know, somebody mentioned you're a part of a different team. We keep asking the young man over here who's a player at Utah, you had three different coaches. [1:57:15] We have guys transferring three times at three different schools in three years, and we act like that's not a problem. [1:57:20] What's the difference in that? You got three different coaches then. [1:57:22] So I do think that freedom of choice is important, but I do think the combination of the transfer portal and collectives and being able to have pay for play that creates free agency all the time is putting 4,000 guys in a portal is not healthy for college athletics. [1:57:44] And I don't think at the end of the day, it's in the best interest of young people in terms of their development. [1:57:56] All right. Thank you. And I want to thank Senator Rosen for her indulgence, allowing two senators to jump in front of her. [1:58:03] That was very kind. Coach Saban, I know you have the preexisting commitment. So thank you for that. [1:58:08] Again, I want to say thank you to everyone here to giving me the opportunity to be here. [1:58:14] This was a pleasure. College football is really, college athletics is really important to me as a college coach and having the opportunity for years and years and years to help young people develop. [1:58:25] I appreciate the interest here and the effort being made and continuing to be able to have young people benefit from college athletics. [1:58:34] Thank you. Thank you. Senator Marino. [1:58:40] Thank you for the witness of being here. Coach, we'll see you later today. [1:58:44] I have to run to a meeting, so I don't have any time. I would just say for the record, I have three concerns with the bill. [1:58:51] It doesn't address the employment issue. We have 47 NCA division teams between three divisions, 20,000 college athletes that I think would be left behind. [1:59:01] So that gives me grave concern. Number two, I think the bill needs to be narrowed and more targeted as a targeted antitrust exemption. [1:59:09] And number three, and most importantly, it does nothing about protecting biological women from competing with men in sports. [1:59:16] So I'll leave my comments to that. But those are three grave concerns that I have about the bill going forward. Thank you. [1:59:23] Thank you. Senator Rosen. [1:59:24] Thank you, Chairman Cruz, Ranking Member Cantwell. I really appreciate this. I'm grateful for. [1:59:29] Thank you for your indulgence. Thank you. [1:59:31] Thank you. I'm grateful for your work and all of my colleagues for their commitment to the conversation today. [1:59:37] I'm going to build upon a lot of questions that have already been asked. [1:59:41] And I think that the main issue that we're here today is we have to realize that our students, they're our kids, they're our future, whatever they do, and they're not a commodity. [1:59:53] And that's the really important message we have here today. [1:59:56] And so I've heard from my state's universities and their leadership, including former Governor Sandoval, [2:00:02] who sits on the Mountain West Conference and the NCAA, excuse me, NCAA boards and has been leading on this issue, [2:00:09] about how the current chaotic system is unworkable and how important it is to establish stability for universities and students. [2:00:16] And so from my understanding of the bill put forth by the chair and ranking member, [2:00:21] the biggest challenges it takes on stemmed from issues present today in college football. [2:00:26] For schools outside the Power Four conferences, like those in Nevada, [2:00:31] I'm wondering what key problems you think the Protect College Sports Act addresses. [2:00:36] So, Mr. G, as a former president of the non-power force, of a non-power force school, [2:00:43] what do you see as the problems this bill solves for, for schools like UNR and UNLV, [2:00:47] who don't generate revenue from football, the scales of the schools in the Big Ten or the SEC? [2:00:53] Yeah, I guess you're talking about that I was the President of Brown, which is a non-Ivy, [2:00:58] or which is a non-power force, at least the Ivies aren't right now. [2:01:01] I don't think they may have become, but I think that for every part of intercollegiate athletics, [2:01:10] what I'm really concerned about is that what we need to do is we need to develop basic fair rules for everyone. [2:01:20] We need to make certain that, and I'm talking about everyone in all of these conferences. [2:01:25] I'm talking about the fact that we need to have protection for student-athletes [2:01:29] and for the institutions themselves. [2:01:31] But finally, and again, I come back to this because I have made this point probably ad nauseum, [2:01:37] and that is that this bill allows us to grow the pie so that all the schools, [2:01:44] including those who are smaller in smaller markets, so to speak, [2:01:48] that they will be able to continue to thrive. [2:01:51] Governor Sanderval and I have had a lot of conversations about this. [2:01:54] And now he's President of UNR, just to make myself clear for everyone who, [2:01:59] former governor, now president of the University of Virginia. [2:02:01] Yeah, I still call him, he has. [2:02:02] We still call him governor, too. [2:02:03] Yeah, I still call him governor, but a good friend of mine. [2:02:07] But he is in total agreement with this bill and what we're trying to accomplish. [2:02:11] I want to stay on this topic then because schools unlock revenue if they make the college football playoffs, right? [2:02:16] It's a billion-dollar-a-year revenue stream outside of the NCAA. [2:02:20] So according to the Knight Foundation, 90% of that revenue goes to schools in the Power Four and Notre Dame. [2:02:27] While we'll always cheer for them, we love to watch football. [2:02:30] My state's biggest schools, UNLV and UNR, have consistently missed the college football playoff, [2:02:36] and with that, this revenue stream. [2:02:37] I know the world is all about likes and influencers and media and all of that and revenue streams. [2:02:43] But, Mr. G., the Protect College Sports Act, would it help schools like UNLV and UNR who don't receive revenue [2:02:50] from the college football playoff currently to receive more revenue? [2:02:53] And how would pooling these media rights, it's all about, like I said, [2:02:58] it's the number of likes and the influencers in the stream. [2:03:01] But how is pooling this work in this bill compared to the Knights Commission proposal [2:03:05] to redistribute the college football playoff revenue to all FBS schools? [2:03:10] Well, you know, first of all, this is an opportunity to grow the revenue for everyone, as I said before. [2:03:17] For everyone, that's my point. [2:03:17] For everyone. [2:03:18] But at the same time, we have to recognize that there are institutions that are going to be able to play [2:03:26] for national championships and so forth. [2:03:27] They should be rewarded. [2:03:28] We're not about leveling everything. [2:03:32] We're about creating opportunities so that every institution, every institution is going to be able [2:03:39] to continue to be competitive. [2:03:43] So is it a question of do our universities just become sports revenue producers [2:03:48] or are they still universities? [2:03:50] You know, of course, remember, I am a university president. [2:03:53] I think, first of all, about the academic integrity of what we're trying to solve. [2:03:58] And I agree with the coach who talks about the fact that we need to put the word student back [2:04:05] into student-athlete again. [2:04:07] And I think that that is what we're trying to solve. [2:04:09] This bill is the last great hope to try to bring some semblance of common sense to all of that, [2:04:17] including the academic issues that we're facing. [2:04:19] Thank you. [2:04:20] I want to build my colleagues who have talked a lot about women's sports. [2:04:23] It's really important. [2:04:24] When I was a young girl, there wasn't women's sports that were organized. [2:04:28] And so this bill really does provide essential protections for women and broad-based sports. [2:04:33] The protections are tied to voluntary participation in media rights pooling. [2:04:38] And I'm concerned that voluntary participation may not provide enough stability or certainty [2:04:43] to adequately protect women's and, of course, as people have been talking about, [2:04:47] those Olympic sports that are so important to our national character, right? [2:04:51] So, Mr. Bivakwa, are these bills' current protections durable enough to protect women's sports [2:04:58] from being cut in the long-term, and what other ways can Congress enable schools to protect women's [2:05:03] and sometimes non-revenue-generating sports programs that we all love to still cheer on? [2:05:10] No, it's a great question. [2:05:12] And, you know, we have 26 programs, 13 men's, 13 women's. [2:05:17] One of the most popular sports on our campus by far is our women's basketball. [2:05:24] You know, we sell out our— [2:05:24] The ACEs, three-time WNBA champs. [2:05:27] Let's talk about women's basketball. [2:05:29] Well, yeah, so women's basketball, you see how certain women's volleyball is growing, [2:05:34] the excitement going on right now with women's softball. [2:05:38] You know, I go back to what I said earlier. [2:05:40] I do think there should be a bit of a give and take. [2:05:44] Like, if you as a university make the decision to continue to invest so heavily in sports like football [2:05:51] and men's basketball and women's basketball, there has to be an agreement, [2:05:56] a contract, if you will, that you're going to continue to invest in an Olympic and in women's sports. [2:06:02] And I think that combined with Title IX requirements will hopefully keep women's sports at the college level going in the direction they're going now, [2:06:10] which I think is incredibly exciting. [2:06:12] And I think they're operating at an all-time high level of success. [2:06:16] Do you think, as a follow-up, Congress should consider requiring other revenue-sharing agreements outside of the Sports Broadcasting Act [2:06:22] that could be redistributed to schools to maintain and support some of these broad-based sports or women's sports? [2:06:29] Well, I think that the scholarship protections, the distribution of scholarships, the roster limitations, [2:06:37] and just an agreement that you have to continue to invest in those women's and Olympic sports. [2:06:42] It gets back to what is NIL? [2:06:46] What are these name, image, and likeness deals? [2:06:48] Coach Saban said it repeatedly, and I agree with him. [2:06:50] It's really become pay-for-play, and I think you have to increase the cap to make it more of a revenue share [2:06:57] and then allow the universities to distribute that, certainly primarily to their revenue sports. [2:07:03] You know, in our case, our main revenue sports is football, first and foremost, but then men's and women's basketball. [2:07:09] But I do think the bill starts to talk about ways to make sure that you can't go all in on just one sport at the expense of others [2:07:17] because that would lead to the disintegration of opportunities for young men and women [2:07:23] who are participating in those Olympic sports and, obviously, young women in women's sports. [2:07:27] Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. [2:07:30] Thank you, Senator Rosen. [2:07:31] Senator Fisher is now recognized for the remainder of your questions. [2:07:35] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [2:07:37] Mr. Bavacqua, Nebraska is really proud of our women's volleyball program, [2:07:42] that we've won a total of five NCAA championships. [2:07:46] We're regularly one of the top programs in that sport. [2:07:50] In fact, Nebraska volleyball has sold out their home arena every match dating back to 2001 [2:07:57] and even sold out Memorial Stadium for an event in 2023. [2:08:03] As we continue to explore the NIL legislation, [2:08:07] it is important that these athletes maintain their NIL opportunities. [2:08:13] You were just addressing much of that. [2:08:15] Can you comment on how this specific piece of legislation addresses women's and Olympic sports programs like Nebraska's volleyball? [2:08:27] How do you think it would help those programs without the federal government deciding who's going to win [2:08:37] and who's going to lose if they're going to be dealing out funding? [2:08:41] Yeah, the success of women's volleyball, and I point to Nebraska, you would know better than I do, [2:08:48] but 81,000, 82,000 people to watch a women's volleyball game, it's exciting, it's astounding. [2:08:57] And I go back to what I had said that I think there has to be a commitment. [2:09:03] Schools are going to pick sports. [2:09:04] You cannot be, in this day and age, a year-in and year-out national championship competitor in all of your programs. [2:09:15] It's just impossible. [2:09:16] So you have to go back to the basics. [2:09:18] At Notre Dame, do we want to win national championships in football? [2:09:21] Absolutely. [2:09:22] Do we want to win national championships in women's basketball? [2:09:24] Absolutely. [2:09:25] We start every season. [2:09:27] That's our goal for those programs and others. [2:09:30] But the true student-athlete experience has to be more than just national championships. [2:09:36] It has to be, you know, what are you learning? [2:09:37] How are you developing? [2:09:38] What's that education you're getting? [2:09:40] What's that opportunity that you're provided? [2:09:43] And that's why I go back to my belief that you should tie in universities, and I'll use the term again, [2:09:50] hold our feet to the fire, that as you continue to invest in those primary sports, and they're different, [2:09:56] volleyball is also a big emphasis for ours right now. [2:09:58] We have a wonderful coach, and we're going in a great direction. [2:10:01] But you can't do that. [2:10:02] You can't be all-in on certain sports at the expense of others. [2:10:06] And I think one area where the bill can be improved is tightening that language, making that language a bit more forceful, [2:10:14] that as you continue to put your foot on the gas on major revenue sports like football, men's and women's basketball, [2:10:20] we are not going to allow you to take your foot off the gas of women's sports and Olympic sports. [2:10:26] Thank you. [2:10:27] Mr. Gee, Nebraska is also home to the College World Series, the men's College World Series. [2:10:35] That's coming up in just a week or so now. [2:10:39] Last year, that College World Series brought nearly $150 million in economic benefit to the city of Omaha. [2:10:49] So as we consider this NIL legislation, how can Congress ensure that we're protecting some of these really cherished traditions that we have, [2:11:01] whether it's the College World Series or it's basketball's March Madness? [2:11:07] Well, I really appreciate it. [2:11:09] I have seen the stadium in Omaha. [2:11:13] I'm actually hopeful that the West Virginia team is going to be there this year. [2:11:17] You know, we have fingers crossed. [2:11:19] And I spoke, gave the keynote address at the Gallup organization last year, and so I was right there in the neighborhood. [2:11:25] So it was great fun. [2:11:26] And I will tell you that this bill, I'm going to come back at this again. [2:11:33] You'll think that I'm wearing a sandwich board that says vote for this bill. [2:11:37] But I really do believe that, to answer your question, that without this bill, we will have chaos. [2:11:44] With this bill, we'll now have an opportunity to really address the issues you're talking about. [2:11:49] The bill, like everything else, is not perfect, but it goes so much further to solving the problems [2:11:58] and giving a structure to solve the problems and solve the traditions and ability to be able to protect those. [2:12:04] But are there structures within this bill that you can point to right now that would protect College World Series? [2:12:12] Yes, I'm just looking at, I'm just looking at, I'm going to ask him, isn't there a, yes. [2:12:22] No, we're not going to let Senator Cruz. [2:12:23] Yes, I'm going to let him, I'm going to let him, I'm going to let him respond, okay. [2:12:27] I can talk to him anytime. [2:12:30] I know, but I'm, I want to hear your thoughts. [2:12:32] He's much more interesting than me. [2:12:33] Go ahead. [2:12:34] Oh, please. [2:12:35] Now we're getting off topic. [2:12:39] Please, Senator Cruz, you are much more interesting. [2:12:42] Please tell us. [2:12:42] Well, I, I'm not going to take Senator Fisher's time other than to say, number one, you are absolutely right that Nebraska's women's volleyball is impressive as all get out. [2:12:52] And the massive crowd that came out to, to watch them play was, was really groundbreaking and, and I think changed college sports. [2:12:59] Um, I, I will say in terms of your specific questions, one of the really important provisions here is we've tied the pooling of media rights [2:13:09] to a mandate to protect roster spots and scholarships for women's sports, for non-revenue sports, that those two are intertwined for Olympic sports because we want to keep all of that, uh, fully protected. [2:13:25] And, and, and, uh, uh, just to be a, uh, a home state partisan for a minute, I am particularly proud that right now we're right in the middle of the women's softball world series, which is between Texas and Texas tech. [2:13:38] And, and in my view, we went either way. [2:13:39] So I'm cheering for them both and, and, and really happy with that, but, but that's an enormously important part of this bill. [2:13:46] Okay. [2:13:46] Thank you. [2:13:47] And, and, and he answered my question. [2:13:49] Thank you very much. [2:13:50] Thank you, sir. [2:13:52] Uh, Senator Moran. [2:13:53] Chairman, thank you. [2:13:54] Um, and I thank our witnesses for being here. [2:13:58] Chairman, as, as you and Senator Cantwell know, uh, I, I should be a significant supporter of this bill. [2:14:06] Uh, it's an effort that began with Senator Blumenthal and I and, uh, added, uh, Senator Booker. [2:14:12] And so many of the provisions, uh, come from a draft that we introduced in 2023. [2:14:17] And I thank you and Senator Cantwell for, uh, closing that gap that we've been unable to accomplish for a long time. [2:14:27] Um, and the longer this problem rely, uh, remains, the more damaging the circumstance is going to be to the things we're talking about today. [2:14:35] I want to ask a couple of questions from these witnesses. [2:14:40] One has to do with pooling rights under the agreement, uh, and that is the Sports Broadcasting Act has allowed professional leagues to pool their media revenues and collectively negotiate media deals with the intention of increasing access to viewing live sports. [2:14:58] But since we, Congress, enacted that act, uh, streaming has fundamentally changed, uh, the media marketplace. [2:15:07] In Kansas, if, in a professional sport, if we're trying to see the Chiefs game, if you want to follow every Chiefs game, you need reliable broadband, smart TV, streaming device, multiple subscriptions. [2:15:20] Uh, and it's costly and it's costly and confusing. [2:15:23] I never know. [2:15:24] I Google now, how do I watch a sports team play ball? [2:15:30] Uh, and we have lots of places in our state that don't have broadband and access, even if the game is there. [2:15:41] The, the Protect College Sports Act of 2026 would adopt this broadcasting model if 75% of the current FBS schools opt to pooling their media rights. [2:15:52] Uh, I appreciate that it's not mandatory, but I'm worried of the consequences of adopting this broadband, broadcast, uh, framework. [2:16:04] What safeguards are in this legislation to prevent what I described as being the case that we have with the Chiefs or what safeguards should be added? [2:16:14] And I think I've phonetically spelled out your name, sir. [2:16:18] No, it's, it's a tough last nap. [2:16:20] Uh, you know, I, I was encouraged in reading the bill that the provisions that related to the Sports Broadcasting Act were voluntary. [2:16:30] And Senator Cruz made a point of reiterating that in his opening, that it's voluntary. [2:16:36] Uh, I think intellectually, I understand it. [2:16:38] It makes sense. [2:16:39] Uh, I go back to my former life at NBC Sports and, you know, kind of combining my experience at NBC Sports [2:16:47] As far as with my experience at Notre Dame, I do think it could be difficult. [2:16:50] That's why I like the fact that it's voluntary. [2:16:53] Uh, my concern with the, with that area of the bill is there are agreements in place, many long-term agreements, agreements, the longest of which extends into the mid-2030s. [2:17:07] So unless you interrupted the major media deals across the country, nothing could really be done roughly for a decade. [2:17:15] Conferences, Notre Dame, or independent football, we would all have to negotiate agreements prior to that date in the mid-2030s. [2:17:25] Putting on my media, former media executive hat, if I knew I was negotiating an agreement with a university, in our case, or a conference for a limited amount of time, [2:17:35] I would refer to that as a stub deal, and I think the ultimate value of the deal would go down. [2:17:40] So I fear that many conferences and universities might take a financial step backwards before they could take a theoretical step forward in aggregating the media rights. [2:17:51] So that's a concern. [2:17:52] My second concern is if you want to truly maximize the media value around the largest sport in terms of eyeballs, which is college football, [2:18:05] I do think the best way to do that is a super league, and I don't, I certainly don't want a super league. [2:18:10] I'm not sure anybody necessarily wants a super league. [2:18:13] Flooding the market, aggregating the market, bringing it to an aggregate form to major media companies, I'm not sure that's going to drive the value. [2:18:24] Some say it will. [2:18:25] If you wanted to maximize media value around college football, I think you would take 24 to 30 teams, create unbelievably competitive scheduling, [2:18:36] where a team like Notre Dame would play Alabama, Georgia, Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, and start to get a number that more closely resembles an NFL number. [2:18:46] I could be right, I could be wrong, but that's why I was encouraged that it's a voluntary application, [2:18:51] and that a lot more work could be done over the course of the next series of years to see if the value could prove itself out. [2:18:59] Let me see if I can summarize so I understand what you're saying. [2:19:02] The way I would take what you said is that this is a few years out, so we have some time, because there's contracts already in place, to figure this out. [2:19:10] It is voluntary, but there is still concern that the outcome of those voluntary decisions may not end up with the best result. [2:19:20] That more needs to be done between now and the time you're then shopping for the television market. [2:19:28] Correct. [2:19:31] This topic has been raised. [2:19:33] The subcommittee that I used to chair in this committee had responsibility for amateur sports. [2:19:38] That's why we got engaged in NIL, and it also has authority over the U.S. Olympics. [2:19:45] And I think there's a lot to be concerned about here, and you can massage my concerns about what we do for—we've mentioned a couple of sports in which we talk about the Olympics, [2:19:59] but there's a whole array of Olympic sports that I'm worried about, training the next generation of Americans who compete on the global stage at the Olympics. [2:20:12] The—I guess what priorities would you suggest beyond what's in this bill if I want to be a champion of the future of the U.S. Olympics and their athletes? [2:20:23] What provisions should I be worried about that's in the bill or that should be—I know I think most of you are here as advocates for this bill. [2:20:32] I understand that, but what else could be done that would protect what I'm concerned about? [2:20:38] Maybe you, Ms. Gould. [2:20:39] Oh, sorry. [2:20:39] That'd be fine. [2:20:40] No, I'll start, and then, Teresa, please. [2:20:43] I don't necessarily, in my reading of the bill, think there are provisions in the current draft that are detrimental to the future of Olympic sports. [2:20:52] I do think working together with all of you and leaders in the college space, we can add provisions that are more advantageous to securing the future of Olympic sports. [2:21:05] Anyone else? [2:21:06] Yeah, I might just answer it at a macro level, because while women's sports and Olympic sports are not explicitly called out in every provision of this bill, [2:21:17] what this bill provides is more certainty than we have today. [2:21:22] So if you're a university president trying to make decisions about funding for an athletic department, [2:21:29] if you're an athletic director, if you're a conference commissioner who's constantly getting reduced distributions because of litigation, [2:21:37] this creates more certainty. [2:21:40] And to me, more certainty allows the leaders in our industry to make the appropriate decisions to fund broad-based programs. [2:21:48] Ms. Gould, let me summarize what I think you said, is there's problems today in colleges and universities being the training ground for Olympic athletes, [2:21:57] but if we have more certainty, we may be able to do it better than what we're doing it today. [2:22:02] Correct. [2:22:03] Okay, thank you. [2:22:03] Thank you. [2:22:06] And I will say, Senator Moran's very helpful questioning on the questions you raised, [2:22:12] the sports broadcasting provisions in this are, as Mr. Pivacqua emphasized, entirely voluntary, [2:22:18] and any school or conference can choose whether to participate or not. [2:22:21] So it creates a new avenue. [2:22:23] It's our hope that that will substantially grow the revenue that is available for all the programs. [2:22:28] If it doesn't, they won't choose to do it, and nobody is being forced to do anything. [2:22:33] And I will say, on the question of streaming, I, too, am concerned about the fragmentation and how hard it is to watch games. [2:22:40] One of the things Senator Cantwell and I did is we were deliberately neutral. [2:22:43] We took the same language from the Sports Broadcasting Act about sponsored telecasts. [2:22:48] So there is ongoing litigation with the NFL right now about the extent to which that covers streaming or not. [2:22:54] And we're deliberately neutral on that. [2:22:56] We did not want to piss off the NFL. [2:22:59] We didn't want to engage in that at all. [2:23:01] So we just said, look, whatever, by using the same language, whatever the standard is for the NFL will be the standard for college football as well. [2:23:08] And that seemed to be the most prudent decision not to, not to poke a hornet's nest. [2:23:14] But, right, right, we're just, we're saying nothing about that. [2:23:19] And finally, I will say on women's sports and other provision that is important in this is a requirement of parity for championship facilities and training facilities and gyms for men and women. [2:23:30] And that's, that's in the bill to require parity there. [2:23:34] Senator Bud. [2:23:34] Can I just clarify one thing? [2:23:36] There is a provision that says it has to be available locally. [2:23:40] Yes. [2:23:40] Yes. [2:23:40] So it will be available locally in your community. [2:23:46] Yes. [2:23:50] It's making the requirement so that we, we are seeing an advent of streaming media companies trying to put professional games behind a paywall. [2:23:58] And that is frustrating. [2:24:00] A lot of people, the provision of the bill says that you, even if you do that, that game has to be locally available to that community without being behind a paywall. [2:24:11] Thank you for your, thank you for your past leadership on this issue. [2:24:24] It has been a long, long time. [2:24:26] Yeah. [2:24:26] And I will likewise commend Senator Moran has been a leader on this issue for a long, long time. [2:24:31] You and I have spent a lot of time talking about this and I'm grateful for your, you've been really integral bringing together the bipartisan coalition behind solving this problem. [2:24:41] Senator Bud. [2:24:42] Yeah. [2:24:42] Thank you, Chairman Cruz. [2:24:43] And thank you, ranking member Cantwell, both for your efforts and dedication supporting both student athletes and programs alike. [2:24:50] The bipartisan legislation we're here to discuss, it's a very thoughtful compromise, but it's incumbent on us and the members of this committee to reach an agreement that ensures that we don't have to come back to this committee room in a, in a few years, just to keep up with. [2:25:05] I know what's going to be an ever changing landscape and my home state of North Carolina, our institutions of higher education, help prepare many of our next generation, gives them tools and skills to keep our state the number one workforce. [2:25:19] There's no doubt that college athletics, both directly and indirectly play a role in attracting and keeping students enrolled in school and making North Carolina home after they graduate. [2:25:30] But Mr. Gee, I know you're a West Virginian. [2:25:32] I'm married to a West Virginian. [2:25:34] Appreciate your service there to that great state. [2:25:36] I will lament that she is a proud alum of the thundering herd though. [2:25:40] I call myself the thundering Mountaineers when I'm being ecumenical. [2:25:45] And you're over towards Huntington, I understand. [2:25:48] President Gee, you mentioned that this legislation, it solves the financial crisis that a lot of universities are facing. [2:25:56] And I know that institutions with athletic programs of all shapes and sizes, they're struggling to stay afloat. [2:26:02] So how would an increase in revenue stabilize athletic departments and help academic institutions fulfill their educational mission in the face of a potential enrollment cliff? [2:26:12] Yeah, absolutely critical to the very issues that you've raised. [2:26:18] First of all, we know that most institutions in terms of athletics are already losing a lot of money, $5 billion overall, as I mentioned earlier. [2:26:30] And so by increasing the pie, we provide an opportunity for people to at least have a chance to maintain their athletic programs without, and I've heard this from everyone here, and we've heard it from a number of the questions. [2:26:46] If we don't do this, it's going to start to really have a choice of we're either going to support athletics or we're going to have to close them down in order to be able to sustain the university. [2:27:00] I mean, it's that simple, you know, and on top of it, universities themselves are having tremendous challenges. [2:27:07] We've got the enrollment cliff. [2:27:08] We have students in your own state, about 10 percent fewer students actually opting out to go to college. [2:27:16] So all of those issues mean that this act really helps us to stabilize something that is so enormously important to our institutions. [2:27:25] But at the same time, it does not deteriorate what is happening on the academic side of the university. [2:27:34] Thank you, sir. [2:27:35] You may have answered a piece of this, but we'll elaborate a little bit more. [2:27:39] So with the bill's Title I antitrust protections that allow for the enforcement of transfer rules and third-party pay-for-play arrangements, [2:27:49] would that be sufficient to stabilize the growing amount that schools feel they need to direct towards a roster of revenue sports in order to keep up? [2:27:58] And would the introduction of enforceable rules create more stable revenue outlooks for those schools? [2:28:03] Well, that's the whole purpose of the act, absolutely, is to create stability. [2:28:07] Now, let me just say something. [2:28:08] As a former university president, I now have my First Amendment rights restored, by the way, which is kind of fun. [2:28:15] But I think that universities also have to participate in this process. [2:28:22] You can't simply grow the pie and then spend that money. [2:28:26] You've got to make certain, and Teresa would agree with me, you've got to make certain that the universities themselves are making good choices so that the pie is not simply being eaten up by growing needs. [2:28:41] Rather, there are solid and appropriate choices being made. [2:28:46] Thank you. [2:28:46] Mr. Chairman. [2:28:49] Thank you. [2:28:49] Senator Sullivan. [2:28:50] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [2:28:51] Thank you for this really important hearing from you and Senator Cantwell. [2:28:58] I appreciate the witnesses being here. [2:29:00] I'm going to kind of change direction just a little bit and give you a specific issue that I'm not sure relates directly to the bill, but I just want your advice on it. [2:29:11] I want kind of to send the message to maybe others in college football and the NCAA who are watching this hearing. [2:29:17] I have the honor of chair. [2:29:19] I'm the chairman of the Board of Visitors for the United States Naval Academy. [2:29:23] And I get to see these young men and women who inspire me, who are going on to serve as officers in the Marines in the United States Navy. [2:29:35] You know, many Americans look at the current landscape of multimillion-dollar bidding wars and feel we are losing the very soul of amateur athletics. [2:29:44] Yet, the second week of December, every year, the American people get to watch the Army-Navy game. [2:29:54] And it stands much more than just for an important football game and college football. [2:30:00] It's a powerful reminder of what college sports were always meant to be, an area for character development, teamwork, leadership, [2:30:08] where young people play for the love of the game and purpose far greater than themselves. [2:30:15] Young men on those fields aren't looking for the highest bidder or checking the transfer portal. [2:30:21] They are preparing to lead the American soldiers and Marines and sailors and maybe risk their lives for our great nation when they graduate. [2:30:31] I don't know, have any of you been to the Army-Navy game? [2:30:33] I have. [2:30:34] Okay. [2:30:34] I think it's one of the most inspiring things in the country. [2:30:38] And by the way, it's also an incredibly powerful recruiting tool to get young men and women who are watching on TV to join our military. [2:30:48] For almost two decades, the NCAA agreed that this should be the only football game, college football game, the second week of December. [2:30:58] That was the essentially gentleman's agreement with the Naval Academy in West Point. [2:31:03] However, the money driving college football started to erode on that. [2:31:10] And we started having games. [2:31:13] And now there's even talk of playoffs to compete with the Army-Navy game. [2:31:17] So two years ago, Mr. President, I'd like to, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to submit this for the record. [2:31:22] I let a letter to the head of the NCAA, the head of college football saying, don't do that. [2:31:27] That's bad for the country. [2:31:28] I had dozens of senators and congressmen sign this letter. [2:31:35] They still weren't listening. [2:31:36] So to the president's credit, he issued an executive order just a couple months ago saying, hey, hold off, NCAA, college football. [2:31:47] Quit encroaching on this great game, America's game. [2:31:51] You can't be that greedy and profit-driven. [2:31:53] And by the way, this is the message now to the NCAA and college football. [2:31:57] The president of the United States is now saying in an executive order, stop it. [2:32:01] Okay? [2:32:02] I was there at the signing of this executive order. [2:32:04] So my question to all of you is just very importantly, from the vantage point as leaders in sports and education, [2:32:15] how can the pure mission-driven model of our service academies serve as a North Star as we write this legislation to restore fair competition? [2:32:25] How can we use the inspiring example of the Army-Navy game and members of West Point and the Naval Academy to realign modern college sports [2:32:35] with the classic American values of duty, loyalty, sportsmanship? [2:32:40] People love watching college football in part because of these values, and we're losing them. [2:32:45] And the one place that still has them is the service academies. [2:32:49] And now even the NCAA is trying to encroach on that. [2:32:52] I find it shameful. [2:32:53] We're fighting back with the president's EO and this letter and probably legislation. [2:32:58] I might have amendments to this legislation, really good legislation, by the way, that preserve the Army-Navy game. [2:33:03] But any of you have views on this? [2:33:05] And, you know, just again, more broadly, I think these players represent the truest definition of the student-athlete. [2:33:15] Mr. Baquois, I'm a big Irish fan, but no offense even to Notre Dame. [2:33:24] I think this is the true student-athletes right here at the service academies. [2:33:29] They operate entirely outside the NIL. [2:33:33] By the way, it's hard to get recruits. [2:33:34] You've got a great football player who wants to join the Naval Academy. [2:33:37] Maybe he wants to go somewhere else to get money. [2:33:39] It's not always easy to recruit these guys now. [2:33:43] So I'd love your thoughts on a national framework that can elevate this idea of student-athletes, amateurism, that all Americans want. [2:33:52] And that's why millions watch the Army-Navy game each year. [2:33:56] And I certainly hope the NCAA or college football, if you're watching, stop it. [2:34:00] Quit encroaching on the game. [2:34:01] Sure. [2:34:03] I would say the student-athletes who play all varsity sports, but you mentioned football at the Naval Academy, West Point, Air Force Academy, they're more than student-athletes. [2:34:14] I marvel at the fact that our student-athletes can balance academics and athletics. [2:34:20] I've had good friends who have played on those teams when I was growing up, [2:34:24] and they have a whole other level of what they need to do each and every day. [2:34:31] By the way, if you're an English major at West Point or Annapolis, you're not just an English major. [2:34:37] You're an electrical engineer. [2:34:39] You're a weapons system. [2:34:40] These guys have to graduate with intense degrees in some of the nuclear engineering, hardest classes. [2:34:47] So you're right. [2:34:48] No, it's amazing. [2:34:49] And Notre Dame has a special relationship with the Naval Academy. [2:34:53] I mean, going back to a pledge that Father Hesburgh, our legendary president, made. [2:34:58] It's a great story. [2:34:59] Yeah, coming out of, you know, during World War II, you know, the Naval Academy did so much to keep Notre Dame healthy. [2:35:06] And, you know, we play the Naval Academy every single year. [2:35:10] We'll be playing them in Boston this year on November 7th. [2:35:13] And by the way, I guarantee you'll sell it out. [2:35:16] It'll be sold out. [2:35:17] I hope the Naval Academy wins. [2:35:18] No offense to the Irish. [2:35:19] It's a special game. [2:35:21] And, you know, at the end of the game, there's such a mutual respect. [2:35:24] The Naval Academy comes. [2:35:25] We go to their sideline first to listen to their alma mater, both teams. [2:35:29] They then come to our sideline as we play our alma mater. [2:35:32] So it's a game that we respect and admire. [2:35:37] And I've been to several Army-Navy games, and they're wonderful. [2:35:40] They're absolutely wonderful. [2:35:42] When you talk about scheduling, I, for one, definitely think the window needs to be protected. [2:35:47] Yeah. [2:35:47] But I think it's a bigger issue for the Army-Navy game. [2:35:50] But it's bigger than just college football. [2:35:53] There's so much tension now in the media space and only so many available windows, particularly [2:35:58] with the expansion of the CFP to 12 games and maybe to 24 games in the next few years. [2:36:05] So I think it's a larger conversation than just college football. [2:36:09] What are other major sports? [2:36:11] What are professional sports doing that week? [2:36:13] Because as the NFL, and I'm a huge fan of the NFL, and the NFL is a remarkable sports [2:36:18] entity, but as they start playing more games on Saturdays as you go into December, the number [2:36:24] of available windows and major media partners can offer is condensed. [2:36:31] So I think that's... [2:36:32] Just to make that my warning and the president's executive order, it goes to the NFL, too. [2:36:38] Nobody should be encroaching on this game. [2:36:40] I would love to see that window protected. [2:36:43] Whether the entire day can be protected, that's probably another question and another topic [2:36:49] of conversation. [2:36:50] Thank you. [2:36:50] Any other thoughts on this topic? [2:36:52] Well, I would just say that, Senator, I think that the Army-Navy game is America's game. [2:37:00] It is. [2:37:00] And I think that we ought to preserve that. [2:37:03] As Pete just said, the window ought to be preserved for that particular game, no matter what. [2:37:08] But I just admire what the academies do. [2:37:11] I've spent a lot of time with the academies, and just the opportunity to see what they [2:37:17] do is something that inspires all of us. [2:37:20] Yeah, it's often referred to as the only game in America where the players on the field are [2:37:26] getting ready to commit their lives to the people in the stands watching it. [2:37:31] It's pretty powerful. [2:37:33] Any other thoughts on this? [2:37:34] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [2:37:37] Thank you, Senator Sullivan, and thank you for your commitment and dedication to the [2:37:43] Service Academy and to the fighting men and women of our military. [2:37:46] It is inspirational. [2:37:49] I want to thank each of the witnesses for being here today. [2:37:52] I think this testimony was exceptionally helpful. [2:37:56] And Mr. Holstklaw, I want to say in particular, I just want to – I think your testimony is [2:38:02] a powerful illustration of why college sports is so important, and a conversation Senator [2:38:08] Cantwell and I both had just a minute ago. [2:38:11] We looked at each other and said, you know, look, you're a college student. [2:38:15] This is a pretty intimidating place to be, and I think your testimony was extraordinary. [2:38:20] And it may be because you're used to enormous men crashing into you that you're not scared [2:38:24] by much. [2:38:25] But it really – you did an exceptional job, and I appreciate your being here. [2:38:30] I appreciate all the witnesses being here, but I appreciate your testimony. [2:38:35] I will say senators will have, until the close of business on June 10th, to submit questions [2:38:40] for the record, and the witnesses will have, until the close of business on June 24th, to [2:38:45] respond to those questions. [2:38:47] And again, thank you to all the witnesses. [2:38:49] Thank you to the senators. [2:38:50] And with that, that concludes today's hearing.