IRS chief Frank Bisignano updates Senate Finance Committee on tax filing season

[4:07] Today we are having our hearing on the IRS 2026 filing season and the IRS organization. [4:15] Thank you, Mr. Bisignano, for appearing before the Finance Committee today in your capacity [4:23] as the Chief Executive Officer of the Internal Revenue Service. [4:28] On Tax Day today, I look forward to hearing from you about driving taxpayer-first outcomes at the IRS [4:34] while implementing the working families tax cuts and delivering larger refunds. [4:41] As you well know from the private sector, there are always critics, especially when running the day-to-day operations of an agency historically ranked as one of the least favored and most distrusted by the American public. [4:52] But your distinguished private sector experience leading institutions through crisis, modernization, and transformation are the exact skill set that the IRS needs right now. [5:04] We welcome your insights on how the IRS can better serve American taxpayers. [5:10] This hearing comes at a consequential moment. [5:15] Last year, President Trump and Congressional Republicans acted to prevent the largest tax increase in American history. [5:22] Had the 2017 tax cuts expired, taxpayers earning less than $400,000 would have faced a more than $2.6 trillion tax hike over the next decade. [5:33] Let me say that again. [5:35] Taxpayers making less than $400,000 and most of them making well less than $400,000 would have faced a more than $2.6 trillion tax hike over the next decade. [5:51] Not only did Republicans make those tax cuts permanent, but the Working Families Tax Cuts Act also delivered significant new middle-class tax relief. [6:02] Implementing the new provisions from the Working Families Tax Cuts in time for this filing season was no small task. [6:09] Indeed, a few months ago there was no shortage of commentators predicting a major disruption. [6:17] With the individual tax filing deadline today, the results are now in and the data speak for themselves. [6:25] The filing season opened on time. [6:27] Through April 10, the IRS received about 120 million returns and issued about 80 million refunds, millions more than last year. [6:36] Average refunds increased about 11% to over $3,400 and refunds totaled almost $274 billion, tens of billions more than last year. [6:49] While no filing season is perfect, the 2026 filing season has proceeded smoothly for tens of millions of Americans. [6:58] Indeed, the lack of a major disruption has required some of your critics to change their tune. [7:03] And in an attempt to avoid giving you credit, they now attribute this filing season's success to work that happened over a year ago. [7:12] However, that shifting narrative ignores the work that you have led at the IRS to build the technology necessary to implement the Working Families Tax Cuts. [7:23] New provisions for tips, overtime, car loan interest and senior deductions were claimed on over 53 million returns, nearly half of all filings. [7:37] These figures indicate that the IRS has done its job to ensure delivery of significant new middle class tax relief. [7:46] It also is a testament to the dedicated and skilled IRS employees who have worked to ensure that tens of millions of Americans received their refunds promptly and accurately this filing season. [7:58] Looking forward, the IRS modernization and combating fraud in the tax system issues remain top priorities for this committee. [8:07] Excuse me. [8:17] Two pages stuck together. [8:20] And I look forward to hearing what steps the IRS is taking to make improvements in these areas. [8:29] On the topic of modernization, ranking member Wyden and I recently introduced the Taxpayer Assistance and Service Act, or TAS Act. [8:37] This bill includes 64 common sense provisions drawn from Finance Committee member proposals and the National Taxpayer Advocate recommendations. [8:49] The TAS Act would improve the taxpayer experience and strengthen taxpayer rights. [8:55] It has broad support across the tax community, and I'm glad to be able to working with my colleagues to advance it. [9:02] Mr. Bizzignano, I look forward to working with you and the Treasury Department to modernize the IRS to benefit all taxpayers. [9:11] And thank you again for appearing today. [9:13] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [9:15] Mr. Chairman and colleagues, it's April 15th in America. [9:20] Tax Day and Americans have gone through all kinds of headaches associated with filing their taxes. [9:29] Adding to the headache, millions are frustrated that Republicans and the Trump administration specifically killed the direct file program for the year [9:41] and put those workers back at the mercy of the tax software giants who overcharge for a service that ought to be free. [9:52] It's a reminder that Donald Trump operates pretty much the entire government on the same basic corrupt approach to benefit himself and his friends, [10:05] to punish people he dislikes, and particularly to degrade public service, no matter the cost to typical people. [10:16] His handling of the IRS is a perfect example of all three. [10:22] Direct file in America died on Mr. Bizzignano's watch. [10:28] Shutting it down was a big gift to the Republican allied prep giants who lobby relentlessly. [10:38] I remember years when they spend millions lobbying free for the status quo rather than giving Americans a shot at what people have all over the Western world, [10:51] which is a simple way to file their taxes because the government already has the information. [10:58] So these rent seekers are engaged in a multi-billion dollar ripoff year after year. [11:05] And unfortunately, Donald Trump is on their side. [11:10] So he acts continually in self-interest. [11:12] Right now he's suing the IRS and the Treasury Department for $10 billion over the leak of his own tax returns. [11:19] During his second term, his administration is violating the exact same taxpayer privacy laws that underpin his lawsuit [11:29] by illegally leaking tens of thousands of taxpayer records to ICE. [11:35] Hypocrisy is not the only problem. [11:38] There's a conflict of interest for Trump's staff at the Treasury Department, IRS and DOJ, and it's an enormous one. [11:45] The powerful and unstable men they work for is suing the agency they lead. [11:51] And they're in charge of deciding whether the taxpayer, the American taxpayer, beyond the hook, to pay up. [11:58] I believe this is a depth of corruption that would have been unthinkable during the first 248 years of our history. [12:09] Now it seems to be routine stuff for Donald Trump. [12:13] So let me talk briefly about the IRS's data sharing agreement with ICE. [12:19] I have been warning for a year that this would lead to serious mistakes and violation of taxpayer privacy laws. [12:29] That is exactly what's come to pass. [12:32] There is a strong likelihood that this system misidentified taxpayers and sent ICE to hunt down innocent people who may now be sitting in camps or worse. [12:44] This is not an overstated danger. [12:47] Countless families have had their lives ruined as a result of the Trump mass deportation campaign. [12:53] 46 people died in ICE custody since January of 2025. [12:59] There are a lot of reasons to protect taxpayer data. [13:02] One reason is it helps to promote trust in our system. [13:07] If people believe filing taxes will lead to their abuse or detainment by the state, they aren't going to comply. [13:14] Noncompliance is a disaster. [13:18] It criminalizes people who would otherwise be on the right side of the law, and it also drives up the deficit. [13:25] Those may be the unspoken goals of this administration as Donald Trump and Republicans seek to justify mass deportations and further cuts to essential priorities like health and food stamps. [13:39] Now, on the subject of degrading public service, there is little doubt the numbers will show IRS customer service has gotten worse as a result of Doge and Trump layoffs. [13:52] The Trump administration's decision, for example, to phase out paper checks for tax refunds has caused real problems and delays for millions of vulnerable Americans. [14:03] These are people who don't have bank accounts to take direct deposits. [14:07] It was pretty obvious the situation was coming, but the IRS did no outreach to avoid it. [14:16] Now a whole lot of Americans who count every spring on timely refunds to make ends meet are in trouble. [14:22] With filing season ending, I'm sure the committee is going to hear some Trump administration spin about the whole refund question. [14:30] The reality is the tax law is a dud for the vast majority of working people. [14:36] Refunds aren't anywhere near the original Republican goal. [14:41] Any benefit people get from the law is swamped by inflation resulting from tariffs and additional costs with the war in Iran. [14:49] The people coming out on top, as is always the case, are the super wealthy. [14:57] Millions of people have found that the Trump economic agenda is a loser for them, the most regressive economic policy that they have ever seen. [15:06] I'm going to close on this. [15:09] This committee has held a filing season hearing on many occasions. [15:14] To my knowledge, this is the first such hearing where the witness has no real authority to talk about the subject because they don't actually have a Senate confirmed role at the IRS for the Treasury Department. [15:26] Mr. Bisignano is called the chief executive officer of the IRS. [15:32] My view is the CEO job is fake. [15:34] It's an end run around the vetting process for a real nominee, which is a way for Donald Trump and Mr. Besson to have direct control over the IRS. [15:43] As for Mr. Bisignano, his recent appearances before the Ways and Means Committee sure didn't do much to convince anybody the IRS is in good hands. [15:53] Even the Republican side of the dais in the other body was unsatisfied. [15:58] Now, he's got an actual job running Social Security. [16:02] By the way, that's another agency in crisis due to mismanagement. [16:06] I believe the individual with us, Mr. Bisignano, ought to be focused on cleaning up that Social Security mess. [16:12] Over the past 15 months, the administration laid off more than 7,500 Social Security employees, [16:18] which worsened Americans' access to their earned benefits and gave Doge free reign to pilfer their most sensitive data. [16:26] As of a few weeks ago, we learned that a former Doge staffer downloaded onto a personal thumb drive a copy of one of the Social Security's tightly restricted databases of Americans' personal information. [16:40] So my colleagues and I have repeatedly urged the chair of this committee to hold a hearing to dig in to these important issues. [16:50] These issues for working families and for seniors and disabled are just about the most important thing in their lives. [16:59] But Republicans, no hearings. Basically, just no. I don't think that's right. [17:06] This is Mr. Bisignano's first appearance before the committee since his confirmation last May. [17:11] And it's not even focused on the agency that he was actually nominated to lead. [17:17] I find every single bit of this unacceptable. [17:22] So we've got a lot to do here, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. [17:24] Thank you very much, Senator Wyden. [17:27] And we will now proceed to you, Mr. Bisignano. [17:30] Please proceed with your statement. [17:32] Pull the microphone a little bit closer. [17:47] Chairman Crapo, Ranking Member Wyden and members of the committee. [17:53] I am proud to be here today, April 15th, the annual tax filing deadline to discuss the filing season and the IRS operations. [18:03] Since becoming the IRS CEO in October of last year, we have transformed the taxpayer experience. [18:10] This year, Tax Day holds of special importance because working families across our nation are benefiting from pro-growth tax policies like never before. [18:22] Let me be crystal clear. [18:24] This is the most successful filing season in IRS history. [18:29] This is thanks to President Trump, Secretary Besant and Congressional Republicans in securing passage of the working families tax cuts. [18:41] This landmark legislation forms the cornerstone of the administration's growth agenda. [18:49] The latest numbers tell the story. [18:51] The IRS has received more than 134 million individual income tax returns, with more than 98% of them filed electronically. [19:03] We have issued more than 80 million refunds, with 98% of those refunds sent electronically via direct deposit. [19:14] More than 90% of taxpayers who filed electronically received their refund in less than 21 days. [19:25] The average refund amount is over 3400, up by 11%. [19:31] The total amount of refunds we have issued now stands at over 280 billion dollars, 16% higher than last year. [19:43] This is real relief going out to working Americans and their families. [19:49] Thanks to the new landmark policies, more than 53 million Americans have already experienced new financial benefits. [20:00] These provisions include no tax on tips, no tax on overtime, no tax on car loan interest, [20:08] and a special deduction for seniors, which has already been claimed more than 30 million times. [20:17] In addition, provision from President Trump's 2017 tax bill, such as the increased standard deduction, increased child tax credit, [20:31] and full expensing for capital investments were made permanent. [20:35] All of this prevented a tax increase of over $5 trillion on American families and small businesses. [20:45] Many of these provisions have bipartisan support, and each of your constituents will see the benefits. [20:54] Another hallmark of the bill is the Trump accounts, which will provide families a financial head start for their children. [21:04] Families have signed up more than 5 million children for the accounts, of which more than 1 million children are covered by elections for the $1,000 Trump accounts pilot program contribution. [21:20] Along with filing season and other day-to-day operations, we are transforming the agency to meet taxpayers where they want to be met, creating a digital IRS. [21:34] This transformation is not just an operational need, it's a modern-day responsibility. [21:42] It helps us address non-compliance, provides taxpayers with 24-7 access, and safeguards their sensitive financial data. [21:53] This filing season, visits to IRS.gov are up 60% to more than a half billion inquiries, coinciding with decreased phone demand. [22:09] I am proud of the role the IRS has played in delivering this historic level of tax relief. [22:17] Our dedicated career employees worked tirelessly to prepare for this filing season, and have already begun preparing for next year's filing season. [22:30] I want to thank each of them for their work on behalf of the American people. [22:37] Our long-term goal for taxpayers is simple, create a seamless customer experience where taxpayers can interact with the IRS with the same ease they expect from the private sector. [22:51] We are building an IRS that leverages advanced technology, empowers its workforce with better tools, and delivers secure and easily accessible services. [23:01] In closing, I want to thank Republicans for the passage of President Trump's working families tax cuts, laying the groundwork for a historic filing season. [23:16] Mr. Chairman, I'm happy to take questions. [23:19] Thank you very much, Mr. Bisignano. [23:23] As the agency responsible for implementing the President's Working Families Tax Cut Act, you have very, very well explained the benefits that it provides. [23:33] I want you to just highlight a couple for us again right now. [23:37] These are new tax relief that Americans were given in the bill, in addition to the tax relief that we gave them by not letting their existing taxes increase. [23:48] But could you please give me the latest IRS data on how many taxpayers have claimed the no tax on overtime, no tax on tips, no tax on Social Security, and American-made car interest loan deductions? [24:04] And could you also, I'd like you to do this quickly because I've got another question, but could you also tell me the same data on how many people have opened Trump accounts and have received of those opened Trump accounts the $1,000 seed funding? [24:17] Well, the landmark legislation led by President Trump and Secretary Besant and the Republicans now has over 53 million Americans who have had a deduction from it. [24:36] 30 million, actually, the senior benefit. [24:41] And that 6 million filers have had no tax on tip, 25 million filers had no tax on overtime, and over 30 million seniors, as I said, and 1 million for the car loan deduction. [25:01] When you look at all of this, it's the reason we talk about the historic refunds. [25:07] The largest amount of refunds, 80 million going out, and over $280 million, $280 billion in refunds. [25:17] We have 10 percent more people receiving a refund this year, while refunds on the absolute are up 11 percent. [25:27] Total refunds paid out are up 16 percent. [25:31] And for Trump accounts, another landmark legislation, which is creating generations of the future's ability to be financially savvy and be able to participate, [25:48] 5 million have been opened up for dependents, 1 million for newborns this year already, and our expectation is that will continue greatly. [26:00] Thank you. [26:01] Thank you. [26:02] I appreciate that. [26:03] And my next question, I'd like to give you a chance to respond directly to the attack that you've already received today and have previously received for pausing the direct file program at the IRS. [26:15] My understanding is that an October 25 Treasury report found that the IRS significantly misrepresented the direct file's costs and that, in fact, notwithstanding the cost of that program to the U.S. taxpayers, [26:32] about 70 percent of all U.S. taxpayers are already eligible to use existing IRS free file programs, a public-private partnership, at no cost to them or to the government at all. [26:46] Could you just give me your response to this attack? [26:49] Yeah, we have seen – thank you. [26:51] Thank you, Chairman. [26:52] We have seen that this filing season over 2 million taxpayers had taken advantage of free file during this filing season. [27:01] Millions more have used free options provided by private industry also. [27:07] Direct file was a costly, unnecessary, and less popular duplicate of programs that already are in place. [27:14] Despite heavy promotion by the Biden administration, direct file was by far the least used free filing option. [27:23] To put it in real terms, Mr. Chairman, the IRS spent more than $72 million to develop and implement the duplicative system that nearly all individual taxpayers did not use. [27:36] This works out to a cost to our country of more than $242 per filed return, more than 60 percent costlier than the IRS estimates for an average individual prepared return. [27:52] As part of the common sense actions I've taken as the CEO of the IRS, it only makes sense to take the resources that were being wasted on duplicative products and not getting the use and instead bolter the enhanced programs that have worked for taxpayers. [28:12] Thank you very much. [28:15] Senator Wyden. [28:16] Yeah, let's just be clear on direct file. [28:18] Direct file is working very well today, and taxpayers love it, and all the data shows that, and they don't like what you're doing, so we're clear on that. [28:28] Let me begin with questions with respect to some of the issues relating to the illegal disclosures of tax information to ICE of all people. [28:37] In February, a federal judge found the IRS had unlawfully disclosed taxpayer information to ICE in nearly 43,000 cases. [28:47] So, Mr. Bizzignano, I'd like to start with a couple of yes or no questions. [28:51] Have the affected taxpayers, the people who face this illegal sharing of their information, have they been notified that their confidential tax information was illegally shared? [29:03] This is just a yes or no answer. [29:05] Thank you for the question, Senator. [29:07] As you all know, there's ongoing litigation on this, and I'm not going to comment on ongoing litigation. [29:12] Well, the district court judge who reviewed the disclosures found they were illegal. [29:19] And yes, there's activities going on, but somebody's got to stand up for these people. [29:24] And it sure doesn't look like it's you. [29:26] When you testified before the Ways and Means Committee, you told me that no one had been fired or disciplined over this. [29:32] Is that still true today? [29:34] So Americans need to know, here you have an illegal sharing of taxpayer data. [29:39] Did you do anything about it? [29:41] As I said, there's ongoing litigation. [29:46] And in fact, you know, there have been rulings that the MOU was legal, but I'm not going to debate ongoing litigation with you, sir. [29:55] Well, you have a federal judge who said it was illegal. [29:58] And it seems to me that at least should cause you all to wake up from the slumber down there and stand up for people. [30:05] Now, does the IRS know who and how many people have been detained or deported as a result of the data sharing program with ICE? [30:12] So Americans understand what's really going on here. [30:15] Their data is being shared with ICE, personal data, important data. [30:21] And you say, well, you know, we're waiting around and maybe some court will tell us something someday. [30:27] But how about the answer to that question? [30:30] What's your question? [30:33] Same thing. [30:34] Does the IRS know who and how many people have been detained or deported as a result of the data sharing program with ICE? [30:41] As I said, there's ongoing litigation. [30:44] We're not going to comment on ongoing litigation, sir. [30:47] Okay. [30:50] You can set it out all you want. [30:52] But these are Americans who are angry. [30:54] They don't get up in the morning and say, gee, let's wait around after our data has been illegally shared. [30:59] They get up in the morning and say, somebody better do something about it. [31:02] That's what we give people an election certificate to do, and that's what we're going to stay at. [31:07] Now, Trump IRS illegally shared the sensitive tax information that I've just been asking about. [31:14] But at the same time, he's suing the IRS for $10 billion over his returns being released during his first term. [31:20] And that was under the watch of his own Treasury Secretary and IRS commissioner. [31:24] So yes or no, have you been involved in any discussion of the lawsuit or a possible settlement? [31:30] Nope. [31:32] Are you going to recommend that the U.S. taxpayer pay him? [31:36] So that's something that's within the province of your duties. [31:40] What are you going to recommend? [31:41] Are you going to recommend that U.S. taxpayers pay him? [31:44] Actually, this is not in the IRS. [31:47] Well, tell me what your opinion is. [31:49] It's at DOJ. [31:50] It's at DOJ. [31:51] Should U.S. taxpayers pay Donald Trump on this matter? [31:54] That's a yes or no question. [31:55] I'm not involved in the matter. [31:57] What's your opinion? [31:58] I'm not rendering opinions on things I'm not involved in. [32:02] What advice did you get from your ethics office on this? [32:08] Advice from my ethics office and from this being what? [32:14] This is a conflict of interest on the part of the president, one of the most flagrant conflicts of interest I've seen in all my time in public service. [32:22] Did your ethics office give you an opinion? [32:25] Or maybe they gave you one and you didn't read it? [32:28] No, the opinion is that it's in the DOJ, not in the IRS. [32:31] No, but give me your opinion. [32:33] Your opinion counts because you have an important position. [32:38] You're ostensibly somebody who's supposed to be doing stuff. [32:41] So let me ask you one last question. [32:43] My understanding from the press is that you require rank and file staff to show up every single day. [32:50] And yet at the same time you get on a private jet to come two days a week. [32:56] Is that true? [32:57] That's completely inaccurate. [32:59] Okay. [33:00] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [33:02] Thank you, Senator Bennett. [33:03] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [33:05] Thank you, Mr. Bizzignano for being here today. [33:07] I don't really understand what the reluctance is to be able to allow taxpayers in Colorado [33:18] and across this country pay their taxes with a pre-populated form like people have in other countries all over the world, [33:29] you know, for decades and decades and decades. [33:32] people in other places all across the OECD countries, all across, frankly, all across the world, [33:39] have been able to pay their taxes so much more efficiently with so much less red tape, [33:45] with so much less bureaucracy. [33:47] And now it sounds like we're sort of going in the wrong direction. [33:50] Could you just explain why it is that we can't seem to catch up to basic technology in the rest of the world? [33:59] Yeah, why would you say we're going in the wrong direction, sir? [34:02] Because the pre-populated forms that people are able, as a matter of course, in places from Australia to the OECD countries, [34:15] people in America don't have the chance to do. [34:18] And direct file, which was, you answered your question to the chairman about direct file, [34:25] but that was something that was very popular with the American people, [34:28] something that gave them the chance to more expeditiously file their returns. [34:34] I'm not saying it was perfect. [34:36] That's not my point. [34:37] My point is different than that. [34:38] Why is it so hard for us to deliver the basic level of customer service that the rest of the world enjoys? [34:46] And by the way, that's a question I've asked your predecessors. [34:49] It's not just you. [34:51] Let's go. [34:52] I thank you for the question, sir. [34:55] Thank you. [34:56] And thank you for taking the time to explain it. [34:58] If you look at this tax season, even the stats will tell you, [35:04] 98 percent of our filings were electronic. [35:09] And 98 percent of Americans received a direct deposit within 21 days or less. [35:18] So that's the best stats we ever had in terms of performance. [35:22] If you look at what's going on in refunds, it's the largest refund. [35:26] So we've had the highest volume and, in fact, the fastest payments to the Americans. [35:32] That's just pure facts, right? [35:34] And that was 80 million Americans. [35:37] That's 10 percent more than last year. [35:41] So when you look at the filing season and then, you know, there was a leaked inspector general report that actually said phone servicing was over 40 percent better this year than last year. [35:56] But what is the reason not to make it easier? [36:00] Well, I'm talking about all ways that we are making it easier. [36:03] And if you look at 500 million online inquiries by taxpayers, right, that's hundreds of millions more because we created tremendous capability. [36:15] That's the good career working technologists at the IRS. [36:20] I'm not. [36:21] I'm not. [36:22] I'm not. [36:23] My problem is not with the people working at the IRS. [36:25] Although I have some question about whether or not they're in the right place right now. [36:32] But the thing that's so shocking to me is we're making it harder for people that are working people to file their returns than in other countries around the world. [36:41] That's indisputable. [36:42] I mean, you can read off these statistics, but it's indisputable that it's much easier in Australia to file your tax returns for working people just to pick one place. [36:54] than it is in the United States of America. [36:57] And at the same time, so we're making it harder than other places for working people. [37:02] At the same time, the estimates are that the lack of cops on the beat at the IRS is going to cost the Treasury of the United States $646 billion in unpaid taxes by the wealthiest people in America, [37:17] contributing to the $38 trillion deficit that we have debt that we have in this nation. [37:25] By the way, I remember you saying when you and I met before your confirmation that you were deeply concerned about the level of national debt in this country. [37:34] It is $38 trillion. [37:37] And a lot of that is because of the completely unpaid for tax bill that is the Trump tax bill. [37:43] So what do you say about the $646 billion, $643 billion of uncollected revenue? [37:50] The taxes people owe in this nation. [37:53] I think, first of all, one thing I'd say is we need to figure out, you were talking about the tax gap, and what I've seen is nobody's ever worked on the tax gap. [38:05] And we need to decide what is the addressable tax gap, and we need to go get it. [38:09] But enforcement revenue is up 12% this year. [38:13] Enforcement revenue is up 12% this year. [38:16] The top five cases this year are $2 billion. [38:20] And I'm making a point because, in fact, we are going to work equally on every bad actor. [38:30] Okay. [38:31] What we just heard, Mr. Chairman, was testimony that said that nobody has ever worked on the tax gap. [38:37] I think it's long overdue that the IRS should be collecting taxes from the wealthiest people in this country. [38:43] And the head of the IRS says they're not doing that. [38:46] Thank you. [38:47] That's not what I said. [38:48] We all agree we should address the tax gap, and I think he said that he is, too. [38:54] Good. [38:55] Well, I agree. [38:56] Thank you for interpreting it. [38:57] Give him some example of it. [39:00] Senator Welch. [39:04] Thank you very much. [39:05] Welcome. [39:06] Senator, if you want to go on. [39:07] What was the deficit number when President Trump took office in January 20th of 2025? [39:14] I don't know. [39:16] Well, do you know what it is today? [39:18] I'm not tracking it. [39:19] Big number? [39:22] And I want to just follow up on some of the questions my colleague from Colorado asked. [39:27] On enforcement, we have a chart here that there has been significant cuts in the staff for enforcement. [39:35] And this chart here shows that 25% loss of staff has led to longer wait times. [39:43] And I understand you dispute that, but that is our experience in Vermont. [39:47] And also, as the senator from Colorado mentioned, $598 billion in lost revenue from Doge layoffs. [39:56] They should be here. [39:57] Do you want to contest that? [40:00] First thing I'd say is, as I said, you know, the inspector general would say phone servicing performed 40% better. [40:12] Secondly, it just said, you know, we have 12% more enforcement revenue year-to-date than we had before. [40:20] Let me interrupt for just a second. [40:24] I mean, you believe it is absolutely essential that the IRS enforce collection, particularly from- [40:33] One hundred percent. [40:34] All right. [40:35] And one of your predecessors in the Trump administration, Mr. Reddick, you know him. [40:41] He says that while he described the agency as outgunned by wealthy, well-advised taxpayers, and Mr. Reddick estimated that the tax gap, which is the difference between taxes owed and taxes paid, was approaching $1 trillion a year. [41:04] That's from a Trump appointee who shares your concern about collection. [41:10] Do you, what is your number? [41:12] My number is that, you know, the last reported tax gap was $650, right? [41:19] And I think we're undergoing a review of what's the actual addressable tax gap and how to close that gap. [41:27] Well, let me ask, you know, the review has to- [41:31] No document that would produce a trillion, but $650 is big enough so we don't have to debate the trillion. [41:38] And what I'm saying is we're going- [41:40] That's right. [41:41] But here is what's happening. [41:42] I mean, the number of staff that are assigned has diminished. [41:46] There were the doge cuts that did a lot of damage to the organizational structure and the morale. [41:52] You didn't do this. [41:53] This is something you inherited, but it's something you have to address. [41:56] And then Mr. Reddick says we've got a trillion dollars in the tax gap. [42:00] That is just totally unacceptable- [42:01] Okay, but why don't we deal with the published number of $650- [42:03] The published number of $650- [42:05] Pay their bills. [42:06] Right. [42:07] Secondly, what we've done is bring in a ton of technology. [42:12] We have- [42:13] Well, we need you to bring in a ton of money from people who owe it, not a ton of technology. [42:18] Well, that's $500,000 we collected the other day, $250 million from. [42:25] The top five cases were $2 billion. [42:28] No, I am all in favor of that. [42:30] You've got some successes there you've talked to. [42:32] But if there is a gap- [42:34] And again, this is not my number. [42:36] This is from the Wall Street Journal quoting Mr. Reddick, your predecessor. [42:40] Yeah, well, that's a paper talking about somebody with a number that's never been produced. [42:44] So I want to really use that for my baseline. [42:46] Well, we've got the Yale Budget Lab that studies this with a PhD economist and we've got a former IRS tax commissioner on Trump who puts that number at about a trillion dollars. [42:58] So the real question here is when you return to this committee with Senator Crapo and Senator Wyden, we want that number to be as close to zero as possible. [43:09] Well, what you'll have is a plan to drive the number down and you'll have the resources allocated and technology. [43:16] Well, we don't want a ton of technology. [43:18] We don't want a plan. [43:19] We want people who owe taxes to the United States Treasury to pay taxes to the United States Treasury. [43:25] And that is especially- [43:26] And how long have you been working and telling people to work on the tax cap? [43:29] How long have I been? [43:31] Don't I get to ask questions here? [43:32] I'm just wondering because you're making it sound like it was worked on diligently ever. [43:38] No. [43:39] It's about to be for the first time. [43:41] Look, here is the reality, okay? [43:45] The new Trump administration came in and eviscerated the staffing at the IRS. [43:52] It also changed its policy on audits of very wealthy individuals. [43:57] And it's incredibly complicated, those audits, the things that very wealthy people can do to avoid stating what their income is and inflate their expenses. [44:06] That has happened. [44:07] Mr. Reddick has acknowledged that it was so great that it got up to a trillion. [44:12] That is a problem that is the responsibility and burden you have to address and get that number down. [44:19] Thank you. [44:20] Thank you. [44:21] Nobody's been fired. [44:22] Everybody retired voluntarily. [44:24] All right. [44:25] Thank you. [44:26] I yield back. [44:27] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [44:28] Thank you. [44:29] Senator Whitehouse. [44:32] Thank you. [44:33] I'm told that Administrator Bisignano is not going to answer any questions related to the Social Security Administration while he's here before this committee. [44:44] That doesn't seem like a great rule. [44:46] I don't know if the chair has approved that refusal to answer questions on that subject. [44:51] Well, this is an IRS hearing, not a Social Security hearing. [44:56] And does that mean that we don't get to ask questions about Social Security Administration? [45:01] Well, you can ask whatever questions you want. [45:03] I can leave it up to the CEO as to what he will answer. [45:07] Will you answer? [45:10] Ask me a question. [45:13] No question. [45:15] I'm sorry? [45:16] That is a yes or no question. [45:17] Will you answer? [45:18] I want to hear the question. [45:19] I'll answer. [45:20] I'll definitely answer. [45:21] Okay, good. [45:22] I'll definitely answer. [45:23] It's pretty simple. [45:24] You and I have talked before about this subject, and that is protecting the data of the Social Security Administration. [45:29] When we first spoke and we had the hearing here, you said you'd do a complete review of the extent to which what I call the doggy boys had gone in and exfiltrated data from the Social Security Administration. [45:41] And you then reported back that it looked like there had been no problem, that the data was sound since then. [45:48] There have been multiple reports of doggy boy people having removed potentially significant amounts of data from the death list and others and exfiltrated them when they left to provide as an asset to private sector employers and so forth. [46:07] Would you like to update us on what your review has shown? [46:12] That review has been fully put in front of the ranking member and the chairman's staff and been reviewed with them. [46:23] And what can you assure us about what Social Security data has been exfiltrated? [46:31] We've been very clear about we don't see any data that left the house. [46:36] You don't see any data that left the house? [46:38] Okay. [46:39] The number of new exams audits for taxpayers in very, very, very high income categories like above $10 million in income has dropped by 9% and I believe it's scheduled to drop by another 30%. [47:10] And I go back to the days when the majority of the IRS enforcement effort was in states like Mississippi going after the poorest people. [47:21] And I thought that one of the good things that we did on a bipartisan basis was to refocus the IRS audit on the people who are most likely to be tax cheats, which is people who have enormous resources and the ability to deploy complex tax cheat strategies. [47:36] What is up with the reduction in interest in auditing very rich people and the reduction in actual audits of very rich people? [47:52] First of all, this year, collections and enforcement is up 12% and this is year to date. [48:01] As I said earlier, we've had over $2 billion in the top five audits that we collected on. [48:10] And we'll go after every bad actor. [48:14] We're not, there is, there's no bias to any of it. [48:18] It's every bad actor. [48:19] You're not going to have the type of revenue we have coming in from enforcement if you're not collecting from highly compensated people and bad actors. [48:31] So, you know, I mean, I think, I think that this year's numbers will prove itself out. [48:36] So, what explains that, for instance, the large business and international division lost 19% of its staff and has that affected audits in the large business and international division? [48:57] No, I think what our head of enforcement would say and our head of CI would say is their ability to use technology has completely guided them reaching out to more, not less. [49:10] You know, I don't, I don't think that the metric anyone ever had that said it was the right number of staff and I'm going to always ensure that we have the right number of staff to get every job done we need. [49:24] Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman, I think it might behoove the committee to have a kind of technical session on looking at how the IRS is implementing new AI and data systems in order to overcome what seems to be very dramatic reductions in workforce dedicated to audit. [49:54] Mr. Chairman, I think I don't want to hear the point that the administrator is making, but I think it would be helpful if we sat down at some point with some of the folks from the IRS to have it explained to us how that's actually playing out in practice. [50:06] Because if what is happening is that less resources are being sent to large businesses, large corporations, international schemes, and super high end individuals for audit, then the results are kind of predictable. [50:21] They'll get off scot-free the way they often do in the past. [50:24] Mr. I think your suggestion of getting that information is very good. [50:26] Now, whether that means we'd have another session and have a committee meeting on it or whether we get the data and get the information. [50:34] Mr. Yeah, either way, I think it would just be a useful thing for us to do as AI enters the IRS enforcement landscape. [50:39] Mr. I've seen a lot of information that gives answers to that, so I think we can get that information. [50:43] Mr. I think that would be very helpful. I appreciate it, Chairman. Thank you, sir. [50:45] Mr. All right, thank you. [50:46] Mr. Thank you, Administrator. [50:47] Senator Cortez Masto. [50:50] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [50:51] I'm going to stay on the same line of questioning. [50:54] Mr. Iñano, how much time do you spend as the CEO of IRS versus your duties as Commissioner of Social Security? [51:03] I'm curious. [51:04] Yeah, I really look at it like I run two large organizations, and, you know, my day starts as it did today. [51:13] Mr. Can I ask because I don't have much time here? [51:16] Percentage-wise, how much time do you spend? [51:17] 50-50, 60-40, 30-70? [51:19] Mr. Well, I think you should ask the question of I spend, you know, not eight hours a day, but 14 hours a day, right? [51:26] Mr. But, again, I need specifics. [51:30] You could spend 14 hours a day on the IRS or 14 hours a day on Social Security. [51:32] Mr. I don't divide my time. I spend all my time on all issues. [51:34] Mr. You've got to figure out, as a CEO, an administrator percentage. [51:36] Mr. I don't know. [51:37] Mr. Actually, how is that? [51:38] Mr. Well, here's how to think about it, right? [51:40] We run it with a governance structure, both organizations. [51:44] There's a weekly staff meeting. [51:46] There's a key indicator meeting that we take the top two levels of management. [51:52] This would be a report that never existed before. [51:55] Many things did not exist before. [51:57] We've built technology to be able to look at it. [52:00] That happens every week. [52:02] We have a risk meeting that never happened every week. [52:05] Let me just say it would be helpful if you look back at your calendar [52:09] and you tell us how much time was spent on Social Security versus IRS. [52:12] That would be very helpful. [52:13] Just your days. [52:14] That's all I'm asking. [52:16] Secondly, I appreciate you for the private sector. [52:18] Mr. You're going to include Saturday and Sunday. [52:20] Why don't you want to know how many hours they spend on each of them? [52:22] Mr. Just a percentage, yeah. [52:23] Mr. I'll give you the hours. [52:24] Mr. Listen, let me just say this. [52:26] This is an oversight hearing because the taxpayers pay your bill. [52:30] The taxpayers pay mine. [52:31] They're making sure that the agencies that work for them are run efficiently [52:35] and we're spending the money in a way that is efficient for the taxpayers to the benefit of the taxpayers. [52:39] That's all I'm asking is information for the taxpayers on how you're spending your time. [52:44] It's not a gotcha question. [52:46] I'm not here trying to attack you. [52:48] It's just specifically how we see this moving forward. [52:52] So I want to follow up on some of the comments that you've made. [52:55] You're focused on delivering measurable results across the IRS. [53:00] I appreciate that. [53:01] You come from the private sector. [53:02] You're all about measuring metrics and outcomes, and I think that's great. [53:06] And in your speaking, your introduction today, you've identified several deliverables that you're identifying for the IRS. [53:15] My question is, as you're measuring these metrics, can you provide us more information on how you are measuring them? [53:21] Mr. Sure. [53:22] Mr. For instance, it would be helpful for me to understand I get achieving the best filing season results in timeliness and accuracy, [53:29] so it would be helpful if you give us the metrics, but you're basing it against how you are achieving that outcome. [53:34] What I don't get is the building a world-class management team. [53:36] I'm not sure how you do a metric on that, but if you've got a metric, that would be helpful. [53:40] So if you can give us more specifics on those items, I would appreciate that. [53:44] Mr. Sure. [53:45] My pleasure. [53:46] Thank you. [53:47] So as we've said, you're currently leading these two agencies. [53:49] I do have concerns, and I want to address this. [53:51] In January, the DOJ admitted in court that Doge employees used an unauthorized third-party server to share Social Security data, [53:59] and that a Social Security staffer for Doge signed a data-sharing agreement with a private political advocacy group. [54:06] There are also allegations from a whistleblower that a Doge staffer took major Social Security Administration databases with him using a thumb drive. [54:14] And then at the IRS, a federal court has found 42,695 violations of federal law stemming from the sharing of confidential taxpayer data under an agreement with DHS. [54:28] My question to you is, what changes are you implementing to avoid further breaches of Americans' private information? [54:36] Yeah, we brought in to ensure that our data is secure, which is number one priority. [54:43] If you go through our priorities, it's protecting Americans' data. [54:47] It's driving higher service and improving collections for IRS, right? [54:54] And we brought in outside to look at it, to ensure that we weren't just looking at it internally, and to ensure that we're protecting the data. [55:02] And we had a total outside review of it. [55:04] Let me ask you this. [55:06] I'm going to take advantage of your here also as a Commissioner of Social Security. [55:11] I need help with something. [55:12] In Clark County, Nevada, there is, I'm understanding from our Social Security office that there is right now a backlog of foster children attempting to obtain their Social Security cards. [55:24] And this is because the Social Security office in Las Vegas has informed us in Southern Nevada that it would begin requiring physical, stamped, certified copies of foster children's vital rights [55:35] before issuing their Social Security cards before issuing their Social Security cards. [55:40] Prior to this change, Clark County worked with the Social Security office to provide certified copies of these children's vital records in a digital process. [55:49] Now you are asking for physical. [55:52] The challenge we have with that is because we don't have, actually in Clark County, a lot of the physical, stamped, certified copies, because most of it's digital now. [56:01] So can you take a look at that for me and figure out how we can get back to the system that we're moving in a digital process? [56:07] We'll do it this week. [56:08] Thank you. [56:09] Back to your office. [56:10] Thank you. [56:11] Thank you. [56:12] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [56:14] Thank you. [56:15] Senator Johnson. [56:16] Hey, Mr. Chairman. [56:17] Sorry I'm coming in late. [56:18] If I ask some questions or make some comments that have already been covered, I apologize for that at another hearing. [56:23] Mr. Bisagano, first of all, thank you for your service. [56:26] You've taken on probably two pretty thankless jobs and two very difficult organizations, I think, to really reform. [56:37] But you have the perfect background, having come from the private sector and businesses where you have to process, what, trillions of transactions? [56:47] Okay? [56:48] I just want you to compare that challenge and how you got control and had world-class businesses in the private sector versus the challenge you face right now and what you've seen in the first year of your service here. [57:02] I think I actually brought the same playbook, you know, and I'm honored to be here and congratulations for everything you've done. [57:13] And, you know, I talked earlier for the great work you all did on the Working Families Tax Act. [57:20] I brought the same playbook, which would be a governance structure that interacts pretty deeply with management. [57:29] We eliminated layers of management so we'd have a flatter org. [57:34] Obviously, we have a weekly staff meeting, which I don't know is always customary but is the only thing I've ever known. [57:42] So you're bringing private sector management techniques to the federal government. [57:46] Yes. [57:47] I noticed in your testimony you said you've got now a first-class management team. [57:49] Were those all people you recruited? [57:51] Half recruited and half great career people that were waiting. [57:55] Just identified them. [57:56] Waiting and they're actually learning. [57:59] We're building right now that we'll implement in May a leadership academy that we teach to the next levels of management on what really good looks like and how to achieve really good results. [58:13] How you can have less people and better results. [58:18] So you're trying to create an environment that's going to last beyond your term? [58:23] That's my whole objective here. [58:25] When you came into office in your position, how many people were still working at home? [58:29] How many are working at home now? [58:31] We don't have anybody working at home now. [58:33] Were there quite a few when you came into office? [58:35] Yeah. [58:36] Like what percent of the workforce? [58:37] Well, you know, I think before May a whole bunch were brought in ahead of time. [58:43] But at one point, you know, it was greater than 50%. [58:48] Were there a lot of terminations as a result of that or just retirements from people who didn't want to come back to work? [58:55] All voluntary retirements, which I think was, you know, nobody's going to really like hearing this, but was good because they wanted to retire. [59:04] That's fine. [59:05] So what percentage of workforce ended up taking their retirement rather than having to retire? [59:08] At IRS, 25%. [59:09] About 25%. [59:10] So do you feel you're understaffed at this point in time? [59:13] No. [59:14] So they're going to be able to get by and do a better job with less? [59:18] The numbers are showing that. [59:20] And that's why I think the scoreboard, you know, we're getting refunds out, 98 million of them within 21 days. [59:32] Right. [59:33] I remember when people... [59:34] I read the stats. [59:35] I just wanted you to be able to relay your philosophy how you can in the business world. [59:41] Yeah, I think by delaying... [59:42] You have to do more with less. [59:43] I think by delaying the work. [59:45] Look, technology is the great enabler, right? [59:48] We took online inquiries during tax season up 60% to 500 million. [59:58] Years ago, those would have been phone calls or walk-ins. [1:00:01] Which, by the way, that was the next place I wanted to go. [1:00:03] I mean, is the technology being updated? [1:00:06] Is it up to snuff? [1:00:07] Are you dealing with the legacy systems that are just creating all kinds of habits? [1:00:11] Well, we're always going to be upgrading, but right now we're upgrading for next year. [1:00:15] And we're learning a lot from this year. [1:00:18] And, you know, I think the reality is we will invest a lot more too in tools that help us, [1:00:24] you know, collect more revenue also, not just the servicing side. [1:00:28] Well, again, I just want to encourage you to continue this. [1:00:31] This is exactly what these agencies, including Social Security, need. [1:00:34] They need a private sector approach, do a lot more, a lot better with less. [1:00:38] My final time here, what I always ask of people in charge of the IRS, [1:00:43] our tax code is grotesquely complex. [1:00:46] It costs $400 billion plus to comply with. [1:00:50] I want to simplify and rationalize it. [1:00:53] I think there's two separate approaches, but simplify and rationalize. [1:00:57] What I'd ask you off the record, take a look at what is, what are the most complex areas [1:01:04] that if we simplify, if we did rationalize, that could help taxpayers, you know, reduce those compliance costs, [1:01:13] help you become more efficient in terms of implementing the tax code and stuff. [1:01:18] So again, you don't have time to, if you want to just quick mention, you know, something at the top of your mind, [1:01:22] but otherwise really take a serious look at that. [1:01:24] I've never really got a serious answer back from former IRS commissioners. [1:01:27] I will come back and see you. [1:01:28] I appreciate it. [1:01:29] Do you have a current comment right now, just off the top of your head? [1:01:32] No. [1:01:33] Okay. [1:01:34] I'll come, as I always do, I'll come back to you. [1:01:37] Keep up the great job. [1:01:38] Thanks. [1:01:40] Thank you, sir. [1:01:41] Thank you. [1:01:42] Senator Blackburn. [1:01:43] Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for being here. [1:01:46] I appreciate that on tax day you're spending some time with us and hearing about what the American people are talking about. [1:01:56] In Tennessee, as I've been out and about over our Easter work period, I had more people comment about the enhanced deduction for seniors. [1:02:08] And that is something, as the chairman knows, I really push this. [1:02:13] It's something I've worked on for years, getting income tax off of Social Security. [1:02:20] And I appreciated your comments that 30 million filers have taken advantage of this and that it is one of the most, really one of the most sought after deductions and that we're seeing those increased deductions. [1:02:43] So I thank you for the work on that. [1:02:46] I do want to talk to you about the IRS current administration of the R&D tax credit as it relates to manufacturers. [1:02:55] Tennessee is one of the best states in the country for manufacturing. [1:03:01] And as we are pushing more into the additive and advanced manufacturing concepts, we are seeing a lot of manufacturing come back. [1:03:13] Now, some of our manufacturers have told me that the IRS has asserted that research that manufacturers conduct on their shop floor doesn't qualify for the R&D credit and that supplies used in shop floor research are not research expenses. [1:03:36] And we know China has supercharged their R&D incentives. [1:03:42] So I think it is very important for us to look at this engagement and allow this shop floor research to be considered in that R&D. [1:03:54] So I'm going to ask that you work with Treasury, that you convene the tax policy folks at Treasury and the folks that are administering the R&D credit at the IRS so that everybody gets on the same page and that we continue to lead in R&D. [1:04:17] And we're looking for these best practices that R&D leads us to. [1:04:24] So can you commit to working with us on this issue? [1:04:28] That's a very simple item, 100 percent yes. [1:04:31] And thank you, thank you for all the work you did for the seniors. [1:04:36] And we'll be happy to come to your office and work on it. [1:04:39] Thank you. [1:04:41] Thank you. [1:04:42] We want to get that one addressed because I do think that we need to clarify this R&D issue if we're going to repatriate a lot of these manufacturing jobs. [1:04:56] I also want to raise a Treasury inspector general report on tax administration. [1:05:04] And after reviewing the IRS partnership audit efforts, many of which began under the Biden administration, it remains difficult to understand how these programs actually fit together. [1:05:20] And the report identifies several overlapping efforts. [1:05:25] And I know you were working on rooting out duplications and redundancies. [1:05:31] And the large partnership compliance program, the pass-through organization, the PTE campaign, the PTE program, but their structure and their relationships are not clarified. [1:05:44] Therefore, you get that duplication. [1:05:47] And the LPC created in 21 now appears to sit within the pass-through organization that was established in 2023, while the PTE campaign and program operate alongside or within it at various points. [1:06:07] This leads to monumental confusion to companies that are trying to comply with the law. [1:06:16] And I would ask that you work with us. [1:06:23] And you can see how there is so much redundancy here. [1:06:29] And we need to know that you're going to be open to simplifying this structure and bringing some clarity to it. [1:06:38] And moving to an efficient enforcement in these measures. [1:06:49] Will you work with us on that? [1:06:52] First of all, of course. [1:06:53] And thank you. [1:06:54] Yeah, we will. [1:06:55] And we're focused on the same items you are. [1:06:58] So happy to come get the teams together. [1:07:00] And we will round up all the resources required between Treasury and IRS. [1:07:05] Thank you. [1:07:06] And keep processing all of those enhanced deductions for seniors. [1:07:09] I think it's Section 5 as seniors file their reports. [1:07:13] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:07:14] Thank you, Senator Blackburn. [1:07:15] As I understand it, that's $6,000 deduction for the qualifying seniors. [1:07:20] That is correct. [1:07:21] It's per person. [1:07:22] That's correct. [1:07:23] It's per person. [1:07:24] That's correct. [1:07:25] $6,000 per person. [1:07:26] And as we worked with committee staff during the time we were doing the big, beautiful bill, it removed the income tax from 88% of our Social Security recipients. [1:07:40] Thank you. [1:07:41] I appreciate you helping focus on that. [1:07:43] Senator Grassley. [1:07:44] And for being here, but also thank you for several meetings I've had with you over the last year to discuss various things. [1:07:56] I get the opinion by listening to people on the other side of the aisle that all you have to do is hire 100,000 more people in IRS and you'll get a lot more money. [1:08:09] Under the previous administration, the IRS placed an emphasis upon law enforcement through increased audits. [1:08:17] My understanding is that the IRS is taking a more tactful approach under the Trump administration rather than relying on an army of IRS auditors. [1:08:30] There's a greater focus on using modern tools and I'll let you discuss whatever modern tools is to improve case selection. [1:08:41] How is the IRS using technology to improve enforcement? [1:08:45] Thank you. [1:08:46] And it's always my pleasure to spend time with you too, Senator. [1:08:50] You know, as we engaged, you know, sometimes when you change staffing models, you also change how you do your work and you're going to have to do it through technology and innovation. [1:09:05] And as you know, if not Parkinson's law sets in and we like to go in the opposite direction. [1:09:13] We've built a bunch of tools and one of the things that happens is we talk about the number of audits we have, [1:09:19] but, you know, a direct example is we've sent out, you know, over the past two months 500,000 letters to people who we knew were in fact sending in underreported returns. [1:09:37] And they corrected them. [1:09:38] Those wouldn't show up as audits, but that's our data collection capability. [1:09:44] Without data analytics, as I like to say, we were doing AI before it was AI. [1:09:50] And that resulted in $250 million more collections. [1:09:55] If you look at using tools that takes data and allows it to collect it and give the agents way more information and power, [1:10:05] it's the reason why enforcement revenue is up 12% right now. [1:10:10] And those type of items allow us to get more done. [1:10:15] If you look at the fact that amended returns took six weeks to process and now they take three days, [1:10:25] that gives us more capability, better intelligence and better ways to act on them. [1:10:30] So there's a lot going on inside the agency from a technology standpoint that's actually driving outcomes. [1:10:37] And I think that's why we're able to say that enforcement revenue is up 12% this year. [1:10:42] And when we talk about it, we're talking about, you know, the five biggest cases being $2 billion. [1:10:48] So it's clear that, you know, we go after all bad actors and we want to inform people and give them an opportunity to pay us what they're supposed to pay the right amount. [1:11:00] Now, I want to bring up legislation I got passed a long time ago to see how IRS is working in that area. [1:11:09] It's long been my view that the IRS needs to do a better job of targeting bad actors to avoid imposing costly audits on innocent taxpayers. [1:11:22] A program that I have championed to do just that is the IRS whistleblower program, [1:11:29] which incentivizes those with knowledge of high-dollar tax evasion to alert the IRS. [1:11:36] To date, this program has brought in over $7 billion to the Treasury [1:11:42] and could raise billions more if used by the IRS to its full potential. [1:11:49] Going forward, can I expect the IRS to put more emphasis on the IRS whistleblower program to further focus IRS audit resources? [1:12:04] I have an open-door policy and streamline the IRS leadership so that we can communicate better than ever before. [1:12:11] I hope any IRS employee utilizes the resources they have to communicate issues they see to me or any former leadership or wherever they feel appropriate. [1:12:22] We like to hear from people. [1:12:25] We understand, you know, whistleblowers are usually important to our system here. [1:12:32] Well, that's got to be my last question, but just let me say this in regard to this program. [1:12:39] I get a feeling after all these years that this has been on the books, even though it's brought in $7 billion, [1:12:46] that there's people in the bowels of the IRS that don't like it. [1:12:52] And I think we've got to overcome that bureaucratic opposition to people outside reporting that the IRS isn't doing their job. [1:13:03] Well, I'll do everything in my power, sir. [1:13:05] Thank you. [1:13:08] Senator Daines. [1:13:09] Chairman Crapo, thank you. [1:13:14] Well, it is tax day, and thanks to Republican leadership, President Trump's leadership, the work of this committee, in fact, [1:13:22] we passed the largest tax cut in American history, and I'm proud of that. [1:13:25] Said another way, we stopped the largest tax increase in American history, and I'm proud of that fact. [1:13:31] As we're having these debates about affordability, which we understand, one way to help the American people make it a bit more affordable is put a little more money in their pocket through tax relief. [1:13:42] We champion the no tax on tips, permanent relief for small businesses, permanence in the estate tax, credits to expand school choice in the new markets tax credit, some of the things I personally worked on to push across the finish line. [1:13:57] These provisions enable families, enable farmers and ranchers back in Montana, enable our main street businesses to keep more of their hard-earned dollars at a time when they need it. [1:14:07] In fact, recent IRS data has confirmed that. We're about 45-50% through now, the filing process, and guess what? We're seeing refunds going up, somewhere around 11-13% already. [1:14:22] Montanans are receiving over $3,500 in the average refund more, and that's a significant increase from last filing season. [1:14:32] I know our friends across the aisle have had some consternation, the fact that we stopped the largest tax increase in American history. [1:14:38] There's been some fear mongering, claiming that changes that we put in place, that is actually putting more money in the pockets of the American people, [1:14:48] is actually creating a disaster for filing season, which just isn't true, and we'll talk more about that. [1:14:56] You've streamlined customer service, and we're getting these refunds through, and thankfully, at the end of the day, that's all it means to an end, [1:15:03] that is putting more money in the pockets of the American people. [1:15:08] Mr. Bizzignano, as we see the data that's showing the opposite of some of this fear mongering, [1:15:14] can you tell me how we've ensured that a successful filing season and how we've helped millions, millions of Americans receive their highest refund ever? [1:15:26] Yeah, well, I think first of all, we're right now starting on next year's filing season. [1:15:35] So as soon as I came in, we made a point of, you know, we're going to meet weekly and understand every number [1:15:43] and go through them and ensure we get the right outcome. [1:15:46] I think what you all did, congratulations. [1:15:50] I mean, I think it's actually exceeding expectations. [1:15:56] 80 million Americans, more than 80 million Americans have had refunds. [1:16:01] That's the most ever. [1:16:03] And so when we think about the refund, we paid out 16% more, 16% more. [1:16:13] And the stat that people don't want to really recognize is this great servicing that occurred. [1:16:19] 98% electronic filings in, 98% have received electronic filings. [1:16:28] And when you take all electronic refunds, and when you take all refunds, 90% of them have been paid within 21 days. [1:16:39] Larger refunds to more people quicker. [1:16:44] That's what you gave us the opportunity to do, and I thank you for that. [1:16:49] And, you know, I give the great career people in IRS who I work shoulder to shoulder with and the team who came in with me a ton of credit for what got delivered and where we are. [1:17:02] You know, I had the option of four days to be here. [1:17:05] They gave me four different dates, and I thought I have to take 415 as the date. [1:17:10] You do. [1:17:11] No, you should be here. [1:17:12] We need to be talking about this. [1:17:13] You know, I'll tell you, it's not being talked about enough either. [1:17:15] 90% of senior citizens are not paying taxes on their social security benefits. [1:17:20] Yeah, 30 million seniors with a deduction. [1:17:26] More than 54 filers, 54 million filers in total had a Schedule 1A, which meant they took either no tax on tip, no tax on overtime, no tax on car interest. [1:17:40] And I know it's getting in the wings too, but the fact we kept the, you know, we took the deduction and took it, I mean, it permanent. [1:17:45] I mean, that's another, there's so much here. [1:17:47] That's over five, over $5 trillion. [1:17:50] Well, we got a lot to talk about. [1:17:52] I want to wrap up here. [1:17:54] One of the challenges we faced is the fact that 45% of children in the United States never claimed the benefits of a surviving Social Security payment benefit. [1:18:03] We see that in Bighorn County in Montana. [1:18:06] Child beneficiaries make up 11% of all Social Security recipients. [1:18:11] That's four times higher the statewide average. [1:18:14] So we have rural states like Montana, these communities are facing barriers to access. [1:18:19] We're failing to reach all eligible children. [1:18:22] In addition to the personal hardships these children have, too many of them face financial hardships by not receiving their duly-owned benefits. [1:18:31] My last question, and I'm done here with my time, given your dual role as IRS CEO and Social Security Commissioner, [1:18:38] do you commit to working with my office on this important issue and ensure that all eligible children across my state receive these benefits they're entitled to? [1:18:49] My pleasure and honor. [1:18:52] My dad was an orphan and worked 44 years for the Treasury Department. [1:18:56] So I'll be there whenever you want me. [1:18:58] We'll have our staffs get together, sir. [1:19:00] Thank you. [1:19:01] Thank you. [1:19:02] Senator Warner. [1:19:03] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:19:04] And I appreciate the fact that you know my arguments are going to be so powerful that you allowed three Republicans to go in a row to try to build up and buttress your case. [1:19:18] We did our best to soften you up. [1:19:20] But now let's bring some facts back to the discussion. [1:19:25] Commissioner, it's great to see you again. [1:19:28] You know, on the big bill, in your testimony, you said you're going to return $274 billion in refunds to the American people. [1:19:39] Now, we tried to actually look at this in terms of what this means in terms of actual cost. [1:19:45] And let me just talk about my folks in Virginia. [1:19:48] Average refund is $346. [1:19:54] Now, I believe that number is skewed high because there are some of us at the top that got a much larger refund than that. [1:20:03] But we'll give you credit for the full 346 in terms of refund. [1:20:09] What has it really meant for Virginians and Americans in their pocketbook? [1:20:14] Well, because of data centers, other issues, you know, average electric bill increases $204. [1:20:25] The president's liberation, or I would say to farmers who don't exactly feel liberated, their tariff costs, average family, $307. [1:20:37] Rent, because we haven't done enough on housing supply. [1:20:42] A ranking member, Senator Warren, has gotten a good bill out of the Banking Committee unanimously. [1:20:49] But rent increases up $307. [1:20:52] Actually, I'm sorry. [1:20:55] Rent increases at $600. [1:20:57] And this number of – this is just the gas price increase in the 47 days of a war where we've not had regime change. [1:21:09] We've not got back the enriched uranium. [1:21:11] They still have capacity to do ballistic missiles. [1:21:13] And clearly, the Strait of Hormuz is closed both by the Iranians and now us. [1:21:18] So the way I add it up is that, yes, there may have been a refund. [1:21:23] But in terms of total cost to an average Virginian or average person from Idaho, I see $1,852. [1:21:33] Now, do you refute or would you take issue with any of those? [1:21:38] Well, I'd start with the first number, sir, the number that I'm responsible for at some level here. [1:21:45] The 380 – is that 346 or 386, you said? [1:21:50] The 346, again, would be what we tried to get from it, which would have been much fair if you would have just said, [1:21:55] all right, what's the average amount of refund for, say, folks that make less than $400,000 a year? [1:22:01] That number would go down to that. [1:22:03] I think a couple of things here. [1:22:06] One, we – you took the average number that was reported as refunds year over year, but 8 million more people received refunds. [1:22:19] So if you talk about how much went back to people, it wasn't 346. [1:22:26] It was a number significantly larger because more people got that $3,000 average. [1:22:31] I would – you know, I've had to listen to three of my Republican colleagues. [1:22:36] I would respectfully disagree because the amount of – a lot of that number under 346 is because folks at the very top – and I've been blessed to do very well. [1:22:47] My refund was much bigger than 346. [1:22:50] I actually think it would have been perhaps fairer to have this distribution a little bit geared more for low and moderate. [1:22:57] I think to that point – to that point, the top 1 percent pay 30 percent of all federal taxes. [1:23:04] The top 10 percent pay 62 percent, and the bottom 15 – and the top 1 percent – [1:23:11] The bottom 50 percent pay 3.8. [1:23:13] And the top 1 percent, sir – and I'm a hard – I'm a hardcore capitalist, but the top 1 percent controls a greater share of assets in our economy at a level – [1:23:23] And if you want to think about – [1:23:25] The level, frankly, that makes the 1920s look equitable compared to where we are today. [1:23:30] Let me move from my last question. [1:23:32] You know, one of the things I think we would agree is that the Inspector General – [1:23:38] I believe the data is, you know, every dollar invested in the Inspector General actually gets back to close to $100 back because of trying to find misuse and abuse. [1:23:49] So could you explain to me why the Administration's fiscal 27 request for the Inspector General literally has cut 17 percent from 26 numbers? [1:24:02] That will mean the Inspector General will have lost over 130 full-time employees since the start of 2025. [1:24:10] If we're going to try to bring about greater efficiency, doesn't the Inspector General play a critically important role? [1:24:16] And why are you cutting them at such a dramatic rate? [1:24:19] Well, the fact of the matter is we've managed productivity and quality through every aspect, and the Inspector General is one of those aspects also. [1:24:29] Right. So – but you don't refute the fact that for every dollar spent, the data shows – [1:24:35] That's not my – that's not my calculation, sir, but I'm not going to – [1:24:39] Well, again, I would think the average cost to a Virginia family has actually gone up under this president, [1:24:47] And I think it is a – you know, as a former business guy myself – a bad allocation of resources when you cut the Inspector General. [1:24:53] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:24:54] Thank you. [1:24:55] Senator Young. [1:24:56] Well, thank you for being here, sir. [1:25:00] Thank you for your important work. [1:25:02] One of the things that I hear about as it relates to the One Big Beautiful Bill Act, also known as the Working Families Tax Cuts Act, is the importance of Trump accounts to millions of Americans. [1:25:18] I'll remind my constituents that the IRS has played a very active role in Trump account enrollment through the administration of the new Form 4547. [1:25:32] This allows parents to enroll their children in these tax-advantaged savings accounts so that they can help build wealth and enhance their future opportunities. [1:25:43] The IRS announced at the end of last month that 4 million children have been enrolled in the program thus far. [1:25:51] That's commendable and exciting to me. [1:25:54] Of that, 1 million of these accounts are entitled to the $1,000 seed contribution from the federal government. [1:26:02] In your view, sir, is the IRS on track to fully administer the tax reporting and compliance aspects of Trump accounts by July 4th when contributions can begin to be made? [1:26:15] The number's up to 5 million right now. [1:26:18] You'll be pleased with that. [1:26:19] Oh, wow. [1:26:20] That's great. [1:26:21] I know there's also, you know, philanthropy that's occurred that will allow a newborn to get, you know, like the Dell Foundation putting in $6 billion. [1:26:34] So I think it's a great generational vehicle that I applaud you all for getting that legislation done and all the legislation that you've done and all your hard work. [1:26:48] The answer's yes, but in terms of being prepared, if you look at the preparedness we had here for this filing season with legislation coming through in July and everybody was prepared to say something other than it would turn out the way it was. [1:27:08] Yes. [1:27:09] So we're darn ready for implementing. [1:27:12] Well, great. [1:27:13] Thank you for the, we'll continue to track that. [1:27:15] And if there are any snags you run into, I hope you'll let this committee know. [1:27:19] Of course. [1:27:20] We could be helpful where needed. [1:27:23] The Working Family Tax Cuts Act prevent the largest tax hike in American history. [1:27:28] Failure to act, or in mind others, would have amounted to a $2.6 trillion tax increase on households earning less than $400,000 per year. [1:27:38] That would have, of course, damaged our economy. [1:27:42] Mr. Bisagnano, what other changes are we seeing? [1:27:45] What changes are we seeing in business formation, wage reporting, or other filing behavior that reflect taxpayer response to the many pro-growth provisions in the tax cut law? [1:28:00] I think the most telling signs. [1:28:03] And, you know, if you look across the whole platform, that was a $5 trillion tax hike that was avoided, as you talked about, when you go through the whole taxpayers. [1:28:19] Any trends we're seeing in terms of filing? [1:28:22] Well, trends we're seeing, to me, what we're seeing in the filing season is, you know, the fact that what you all implemented has 54 million Americans aware of OBB. [1:28:39] I think the senior deduction, you have to say, you know, is really taking the tax burden off the seniors with $30 million filed. [1:28:49] I think you're going to watch as we close out this season, you know, the fact that we're going to obviously have the highest refunds ever. [1:29:00] Yeah. [1:29:01] And all of that, you know, is putting money back into the system. [1:29:06] The last thing I wanted to touch on, the Wall Street Journal, over the last roughly 24 hours, had a column, you probably saw it, entitled America's New Tax Mantra. [1:29:20] The IRS isn't going to catch me. [1:29:22] And I think, you know, none of us likes taxes. [1:29:26] I think it's really important that we're enforcing our tax law and that people aren't cheating on their taxes. [1:29:33] So I know the IRS often finds itself up against very sophisticated and well-resourced taxpayers that may or may not be attempting to abuse tax rules. [1:29:47] Hence the importance of effectively identifying cases to audit. [1:29:52] How can your digital first approach and the IRS adoption of new technological tools help in determining which cases to investigate further so the agency's manpower can be better focused on the core accounting and legal work and, if necessary, enforcement work? [1:30:12] Yeah. [1:30:13] First, enforcement revenue is up 12 percent year-to-date. [1:30:17] And, you know, if you pick the top five cases, they were $2 billion. [1:30:23] And I think the team there does an outstanding job. [1:30:28] They've brought in a technology-first mindset. [1:30:32] Everything from, you know, it's never talked about, but, you know, we flag and send out information to taxpayers within a day or two sometimes of their filing. [1:30:43] That's wrong. [1:30:44] That's not called an audit. [1:30:46] It might turn into an audit. [1:30:48] But if you go over the past couple months, 500,000 letters go out and we collect $250 million from them. [1:30:56] But on the technical side, you know, we are doing a lot of data comparison that we would have done manually. [1:31:04] Now, technically, we started that in December. [1:31:07] And that's manifesting all types of cases that we might not have gotten to. [1:31:14] So I expect, you know, I saw the headline. [1:31:18] That's a good rally cry for that whole org. [1:31:21] We talked about it. [1:31:23] They're fired up to not have that be the case. [1:31:26] And I actually think some people think more agents, more agents. [1:31:30] I think more technology, more technology. [1:31:33] And that's going to far exceed what the humans can do. [1:31:37] Technology is the great enabler. [1:31:38] I'm well over my time. [1:31:39] Thank you for your and your team's efforts to root out fraud and abuse. [1:31:44] Yes, Mr. Chairman. [1:31:46] Thank you, Senator Barrasso. [1:31:48] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:31:49] Congratulations. [1:31:50] Thank you for the great job that you're doing. [1:31:52] You know, there have been some allegations from the ranking member, from Senator Whitehouse, Senator Cortez Masto, Senator Bennett. [1:32:01] I want to get the record set straight on the data privacy and what you've been doing in the record since you've been there. [1:32:09] Because the IRS does, prior to this, had a really troubling history, I believe, of failing to safeguard taxpayers' personal information. [1:32:17] The 2022 Government Accountability Office report found almost 500 instances of IRS employees improperly accessing taxpayer data. [1:32:26] Under the Biden administration, an unvetted IRS contractor leaked the confidential records. [1:32:31] I believe it was over close to a half a million Americans. [1:32:34] And they did it to liberal news outlets. [1:32:36] In a separate incident, the Biden IRS accidentally published the data of over 100,000 taxpayers. [1:32:42] And they took it down. [1:32:43] Then they republished it again months later. [1:32:45] Not a single person in the Biden IRS has ever been held accountable for any of this. [1:32:51] This is the record that you inherited. [1:32:53] And I think you moved quickly to change that. [1:32:55] So for the first time in the history of the IRS, you mandated the risk management staff now report directly to senior leadership. [1:33:02] You launched a comprehensive cybersecurity review. [1:33:04] You brought a lot of new oversight. [1:33:06] So how has your approach changed the way that data security vulnerabilities that we've seen in the past get identified and are addressed? [1:33:13] Well, I think, you know, I like to talk about the governance model that we use. [1:33:17] And obviously you hit on one item. [1:33:20] The elevation of risk management to reporting directly to me, to taking a much larger slice of cybersecurity, running on a protect the perimeter, patrol the interior. [1:33:36] And while doing all that, you know, reinforcing that we want problems to bubble up. [1:33:45] We want to hear them. [1:33:46] We want to know them. [1:33:47] That's why we have a weekly risk meeting. [1:33:50] Every week we get together to go through every risk profile and place any risk problem. [1:33:54] Problems don't age well. [1:33:55] And, you know, our approach is we have an open door. [1:34:00] We want to hear problems and we want to deal with problems and bring outside experts in to test what we're doing and ensure it's right. [1:34:08] So I think, you know, I mean, we can't guarantee outcomes. [1:34:13] But if you have a great risk management discipline, your odds are you're going to have less problems. [1:34:21] I do want to recognize also the incredible work you're doing at the Social Security Administration. [1:34:26] Last year we've seen faster customer service, better outcomes for beneficiaries. [1:34:30] So you deserve a lot of appreciation for that. [1:34:32] But today is tax day, which is the reason that you're here and close of filing service. [1:34:38] We're seeing under this new law that we passed, refunds are up. [1:34:42] Total refund dollars are up. [1:34:44] A total of 70 or 80 million people got refunds this year compared to, which is like 7 million people higher than last year. [1:34:53] Of so many of those claims that come in, new tax on tips, they've benefited from that, no tax on overtime. [1:34:58] On Social Security, you talked about some of that in the opening remark. [1:35:01] What made it possible for you and the IRS to process more returns and issue bigger refunds with even you have a smaller workforce? [1:35:09] How have you done it? [1:35:10] Well, I think, you know, we definitely started out with ensuring that all the tech changes we needed to get done. [1:35:18] Remember, this guy enacted in July, and we needed it ready for January. [1:35:25] And that was a forced march, a great job done by the IRS team. [1:35:30] While doing that, we built all the MIS to track how we run the place. [1:35:34] This would be a weekly review that we do right here of metrics with two levels of management. [1:35:42] While doing that, we set what appeared to be super aggressive goals to get good outcomes for the American public. [1:35:49] So you look at the fact that 98% filed electronically, you know, and that went up a full percentage point from last year. [1:35:59] I think the fact that we had 500 million queries because we went and built more capability for people to go online and do queries, [1:36:09] that took down the phone calls, actually. [1:36:12] Right? [1:36:13] So if you go 500 million queries, that's a lot of Americans in the system to find out. [1:36:19] Whereas my refund was the number one used function. [1:36:23] And meanwhile, refunds were back 90% of them within 21 days. [1:36:29] I know you can remember when, you know, somebody would think they'd get a refund in six weeks at the earliest. [1:36:35] So a lot of function built in technology allowed us to handle all the volumes that we would and actually really did not miss a beat. [1:36:45] We worked the backlog, and we never did that before during tax season. [1:36:51] We worked backlogs of paper that was never worked before during the tax season. [1:36:56] Mr. Chairman, I do have one final question because I heard this from an old rancher in Wyoming, an old-time rancher, long-time, multiple generations there. [1:37:02] Could you make it very quick? [1:37:06] Could you make it very quick? [1:37:07] Yeah, because of the executive order directing federal government to increase the use of electronic payments. [1:37:11] I don't think you've got the regulations out yet of how to be able to do the old thing, write a check, send in a check. [1:37:17] He doesn't know how to do this. [1:37:19] He'll be able to write a check. [1:37:21] He'll be able to write a check? [1:37:22] Yeah. [1:37:23] You know, I've always said we're never going to stop anybody from doing what they need to do if that's the only way they know how to do it. [1:37:28] Great. [1:37:29] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:37:30] All right, Senator Warren. [1:37:31] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:37:32] So, Mr. Bisognano, you've claimed that as CEO of the IRS, you are, quote, getting a really good outcome for the American public. [1:37:42] And I just have some questions about what that really means. [1:37:46] Last year, Doge pushed out 4,400, about 4,400 IRS employees whose specific job was to take calls and answer questions for millions of taxpayers. [1:38:00] And then after you pushed them out, you discovered you actually needed those people to do that work. [1:38:05] So you tried to hire a lot of them back. [1:38:08] But you did such a bad job at that that you were still short of your own hiring targets by about 1,000 people as you got to tax filing season. [1:38:20] And now taxpayers who call in are waiting literally twice as long on hold to get help. [1:38:30] So, Mr. Bisognano, which part is the really good outcome for the American people? [1:38:36] Is it pushing out thousands of employees who are needed to help answer taxpayers' questions? [1:38:42] Or is it unsuccessfully scrambling to rehire those workers? [1:38:47] Or is it forcing millions of taxpayers to spend literally twice as much time waiting on the phone to get help? [1:38:55] Where is the really good outcome? [1:38:57] The really good outcome is the fact that we executed against one big, beautiful bill. [1:39:03] We have 54 million Americans who filed a Form 1A. [1:39:09] We have 80 million Americans who received refunds. [1:39:15] I gave you three facts that are verified. [1:39:18] I take it you don't dispute any of those. [1:39:20] I want to understand how any of those. [1:39:21] Well, here's the actual facts, ma'am. [1:39:23] I want to understand how any of those are really good outcomes. [1:39:27] Here's the really good outcomes. [1:39:28] We committed to single-digit wait times on the phones. [1:39:31] I'm sorry. [1:39:32] We're not having people sit- [1:39:33] I'm sorry. [1:39:34] The data from- [1:39:35] Well, actually, what the data from the inspector general report- [1:39:38] The data from the inspector general- [1:39:39] The data from the inspector general says- [1:39:41] Mr. Bisognano, let me ask my question. [1:39:43] TIG the developed level of access increased 45%. [1:39:47] Mr. Bisognano- [1:39:48] There you go. [1:39:49] That same report, I have now seen it, says wait times on the phone doubled for people asking questions. [1:39:57] So what I'm asking you is where are those really good outcomes that you bragged about, and I take it they're not there. [1:40:07] No. [1:40:08] Because let's understand- [1:40:09] How about- [1:40:10] How about- [1:40:11] While the Trump administration is making it harder for regular folks to get help from the IRS, the rich are having a field day. [1:40:19] Thanks to Donald Trump, corporations paid $65 billion less in taxes last year, [1:40:26] compared with 2024. [1:40:28] Meta alone saved $3 billion. [1:40:32] Amazon saved over $4 billion. [1:40:35] And just for context, that $65 billion would have been enough money to extend the Obamacare tax credits three times over and still had money left over, saving healthcare for millions of Americans. [1:40:51] So Mr. Bisognano, I just want to understand how slashing healthcare for families so that Meta gets a $3 billion tax cut is a really good outcome for the American public. [1:41:04] Well, a really good outcome for the American public is getting their checks, their direct deposits within 21 days. [1:41:15] What you're talking about isn't part of what the IRS is working on. [1:41:21] So you think it is a good outcome that Meta gets to save $3 billion, Amazon gets $4 billion, and to pay for it millions of Americans lose their healthcare? [1:41:34] That's your view as the CEO of the IRS? [1:41:38] I don't see the two of them correlated, ma'am. [1:41:42] They're correlated in terms of those tax cuts were paid for by pushing people off their healthcare. [1:41:49] Did you not follow that? [1:41:51] Those tax cuts. [1:41:54] Those tax cuts. [1:41:55] 30 million seniors. [1:41:57] Your seniors. [1:41:58] You're talking about $3 billion for Meta paid for by people being pushed off their healthcare. [1:42:07] And you're the one who said really good outcome for the American people. [1:42:11] It is a really good outcome for the American public here. [1:42:13] That's a terrific outcome for the American people. [1:42:14] That's a terrific outcome for the American people. [1:42:15] That was enacted in the Working Family Tax Act. [1:42:17] I think we've just seen the values of the Trump administration loud and clear. [1:42:21] Well, we still argue over whether the refusal to increase taxes is a tax cut. [1:42:28] Well, Mr. Buzing, no, no, no. [1:42:31] Over whether Meta is paying $3 billion less under the Obama, under the one big beautiful bill [1:42:40] than they paid the year before under taxes. [1:42:43] They got $3 billion they got to keep and it was paid for by millions of people who got pushed [1:42:48] off their healthcare. [1:42:49] Those are just the numbers. [1:42:50] Well, we'll continue to debate this, I'm sure. [1:42:53] And if you're a billionaire and you don't want to pay any taxes for years on end, contrary [1:42:58] to what Mr. Buzingano said, you can get away with it. [1:43:01] Senator Hassan. [1:43:02] Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, ranking member. [1:43:09] Sorry. [1:43:10] Was it Senator Cassidy? [1:43:11] It was Senator Cassidy. [1:43:12] Senator Cassidy, why don't you go ahead. [1:43:14] Well, thank you, Senator Hassan, for being so generous. [1:43:17] Thank you, Senator. [1:43:20] Just for clarification, sir, you enforce the law. [1:43:24] You don't write the law. [1:43:25] That's true. [1:43:28] So that seems to be a little bit of a confusion here. [1:43:32] Today, I introduced with Senator Warner legislation called the Improving IRS Customer Service Act. [1:43:45] Now, this is not to say you've not already done a good idea, but St. Paul says we go from glory [1:43:51] to greater glory. [1:43:52] We improve. [1:43:53] We continue to improve. [1:43:55] So building on last year's successes in which IRS callback technology saved approximately, [1:44:01] I'm told, 919,000 hours for taxpayers in cases where wait times might exceed 15 minutes, and web usage has increased by almost 60% indicating tech modernization initiatives are working. [1:44:17] My bill would equip IRS with the legislative mandate to, one, create an online dashboard so that taxpayers can monitor average call wait time and budget time accordingly. [1:44:29] I called it my bill, by the way, but it's mine and Mark Warner's bill. [1:44:32] It's bipartisan. [1:44:33] Second, allow callback for taxpayers that might need to wait longer than five minutes to speak to a representative. [1:44:39] And third, establish a program to identify and support taxpayers struggling to make ends meet by providing information about alternative payment methods such as installments, partial payments, and offers in compromise. [1:44:54] And you and I know of people kind of desperate, don't know where to turn, cash flow crunch, and IRS is one of their creditors. [1:45:03] So I think this could really ease anxiety. [1:45:05] So I think this legislation, again, is bipartisan, is likely to pass this Congress. [1:45:11] So my question is, could you work with Congress, commit to working with Congress to swiftly implement the reforms? [1:45:17] I'm happy to meet with the team and work with the team and do all I can to make it as good as you want it to be. [1:45:26] What are some of the other improvements to IRS customer service that you can do without our mandate that you anticipate coming online this filing season? [1:45:34] Well, I think you're going to have, you know, as we moved to over 500 million online queries to IRS.gov this year, we learned how to get a better engagement with the taxpayer, meeting them where they want to be met. [1:45:55] So you should expect us to continue that and to build more capability when they need to call in order for them to be served better. [1:46:04] We moved to 24-7, and we're going to further advance that in all areas. [1:46:09] That's great. [1:46:10] Yeah. [1:46:11] Sometimes at 3 in the morning, I'm sitting there, can't go to sleep, and I'm sitting there messing with things, so why not? [1:46:16] Let me ask you about historic preservation easements. [1:46:20] Important to my state, if you go to New Orleans, as you know, you've been to New Orleans, you see how older buildings have been re-gentrified by, or gentrified by these, aided by these historic tax credits. [1:46:36] Started under President Reagan, I believe, but this Congress, we have recently kind of re-upped them, if you will. [1:46:45] Now, there's a difference, I'm told, in how IRS treats two congressionally created programs sharing the same preservation goal. [1:46:55] The IRS gives clear, very, very clear, unambiguous guidance for the use of historic tax credits, but there seems to be a vagueness regarding the guidance for historic preservation easements. [1:47:08] And so, they're complementary, but they're treated differently, at least in terms of the guidance. [1:47:16] And so, I've been working on a bipartisan basis in this committee to reform Section 178 of the tax code, so that historic property owners can get that clear direction. [1:47:26] So, question, kind of begging an answer, will you commit to issuing prospective guidance that is consistent with Secure 2.0 reforms passed by this committee, guidance that facilitates the legitimate use of this tool, which, again, has been so important to my state's historic architecture? [1:47:44] Yeah. [1:47:48] Yeah, we've been, obviously, keenly aware of issues around conservation easements, and we'll come back, we'd like to come see you, look at it, and come up with the right solution. [1:48:00] You know, there's definitely items to solve there. [1:48:03] Sounds good. [1:48:04] I appreciate that. [1:48:06] And then, let me also ask about some crypto tax reform. [1:48:10] Let me make sure I've got my lead into this. [1:48:15] I'm told in the 2026 crypto tax readiness report, which surveyed 3,000 US crypto users, they found that most intend to comply with their tax obligations, but only 49% correctly identify that a taxable event occurs every time crypto is sold. [1:48:35] Approximately 61% of the crypto users unaware of the specific reporting rules that took effect in 2025. [1:48:42] These rules require brokers to issue Form 1099-DA, a digital asset proceeds from broker transaction. [1:48:51] And a fellow vice president of tax at Coinbase said that users are, quote, struggling to navigate the complexities of crypto taxation. [1:49:01] So, can I ask what the IRS is now seeing regarding crypto tax reporting compliance this file? [1:49:08] Well, you know, on the 1099-DA, it's now, you know, out and there's a bunch of work to still do. [1:49:21] So, I'd like to have our team get with who you've been working and your staff working on it and make sure the things we're working on equals what they're seeing. [1:49:34] But it's high on the list of, because of its newness, of things that still need work. [1:49:40] Thank you, sir, I yield. [1:49:41] Thank you. [1:49:42] Senator Hassan. [1:49:44] Thank you, Mr. Chair and Ranking Member Wyden for having this hearing, and Mr. Bisagnano, it's good to see you. [1:49:52] I want to start by talking about something I'm working on as ranking member of the Joint Economic Committee. [1:49:59] Just recently, I sent a bipartisan alert to help the public better avoid common tax scams. [1:50:07] Scammers are increasingly using AI to realistically impersonate the IRS online and over the phone in order to steal taxpayers' refunds, payments, and identities. [1:50:18] When Americans are scammed, they can, of course, report the scam to the IRS. [1:50:23] However, there are seven other federal agencies who also accept scam reports, each in a different way, on a different website. [1:50:31] As a result, Americans who are attacked by scammers often don't know where to turn, and they often don't report at all. [1:50:38] How does the IRS work with other federal agencies to combat scams, and will you commit to working across federal agencies [1:50:45] to simplify the reporting process for scam victims? [1:50:50] First, yes. [1:50:52] And, you know, we took a very active role in Slam the Scam Day. [1:50:57] And I think it's one of the most important things. [1:51:00] I think IRS, honestly, is... [1:51:03] IRS and Social Security, we believe, are the two most prevalent. [1:51:08] And, you know, I'm happy to work across the whole place because this is, to me, one of the things we have to protect the American public from. [1:51:17] I'm working on legislation to try to centralize that reporting. [1:51:21] I'm happy to help. [1:51:22] I'm happy to help. [1:51:23] Yeah, I want the American public to know, too, that if you're scammed, you should report. [1:51:26] It is nothing to be ashamed of. [1:51:27] Very... [1:51:28] Yes. [1:51:29] These are very smart scammers who are using very sophisticated techniques. [1:51:33] Let me move on to another issue. [1:51:36] According to recent reporting, the Social Security Inspector General is investigating an unprecedented violation of Americans' private information involving a former Doge staffer [1:51:47] who purportedly took the Social Security numbers of potentially every American. [1:51:52] If this data gets into the wrong hands or got in the wrong hands, it could unleash a massive wave of scams across the country. [1:52:01] I want to follow up on what you told my colleagues about this issue earlier today. [1:52:05] First of all, have you provided the chairman and ranking member of this committee a review about this incident? [1:52:12] Yes. [1:52:13] That's not true. [1:52:14] I think there is confusion. [1:52:15] We haven't got it. [1:52:16] Excuse my colleague. [1:52:17] No. [1:52:18] Go ahead. [1:52:19] What the witness has answered is not true. [1:52:20] He's now said to two United States senators on this committee something that's untruthful. [1:52:25] We have not got that information. [1:52:26] We'd like it. [1:52:27] I don't want my colleague's time to be taken because of my comment. [1:52:31] It's fine. [1:52:32] How staff's met with your staff. [1:52:34] That would be helpful because I think your answer this morning was confusing and I appreciate the clarification from the ranking member. [1:52:41] The Social Security Inspector General sent this committee a letter one month ago saying that she is investigating this incident. [1:52:48] Is it true that the Inspector General is investigating? [1:52:51] Yes. [1:52:52] Did a Doge employee take millions of Social Security numbers from the Social Security Administration? [1:52:58] We have no belief that that occurred and I think, you know, we're going to feel very good when the Inspector General is done with their report. [1:53:08] Well, the Inspector General has been clear in her letter and without objection I'd like to introduce the letter from the Inspector General dated March 6, 2026. [1:53:18] She says she is investigating an anonymous report. [1:53:22] But here's my question for you. [1:53:25] And she has been clear that she's not going to share information with this committee in detail because she doesn't want to compromise an ongoing investigation. [1:53:33] So I am assuming she is also putting up some level of wall between the leadership of Social Security and IRS and not discussing the details. [1:53:43] So you don't know what the outcome of that investigation is going to be. [1:53:46] Is that correct? [1:53:47] A hundred percent. [1:53:48] So let's operate on the fact that if you don't know what the outcome is going to be. [1:53:54] No, I was answering that a hundred percent. [1:53:57] She is not communicating during the investigation. [1:54:01] Right. [1:54:02] So you don't have any reason to believe there is going to be a finding that the information was stolen or it wasn't stolen? [1:54:11] I don't believe that we're going to find that any data was stolen. [1:54:15] It's an anonymous letter that people have researched inside and out and now the Inspector General is researching it. [1:54:22] Well, let me ask you this question in your capacity here as the leader of the IRS. [1:54:29] Let's say that the Inspector General, contrary to your current belief, does find that there was the theft of Social Security numbers. [1:54:39] At the IRS, how are you preparing for the possibility that DOGE's actions could put millions of Americans at risk of identity theft? [1:54:49] What are you all doing to prepare in case this anonymous report is true? [1:54:53] Well, because we brought in outside experts to also take a review of the environment in both organizations. [1:54:59] I'm sorry? [1:55:01] I just didn't hear that. [1:55:03] I said we brought in outside experts to look to ensure that we weren't the only feasible ensuring that the environment was secure. [1:55:11] So the IRS is doing nothing additional to prepare for the possibility that pretty much every American Social Security number has gotten into the wrong hands, [1:55:21] and doing nothing to prepare for the fact that those Social Security numbers and that identity theft could be used to try to steal people's tax refunds. [1:55:28] Well, there's been no identity theft identified and, you know, it's an anonymous letter. [1:55:35] It's an anonymous letter that the Inspector General is taking quite seriously, and she should, and you should, too. [1:55:43] I have other questions. [1:55:45] I'm over time. [1:55:46] I'll submit them for the record. [1:55:47] But I just want to go on the record, really, to follow up a little bit on one of the lines of questionings that Senator Warren was asking. [1:55:55] My constituent service team in New Hampshire gets inquiry after inquiry from frustrated constituents who not only have to wait a long time to get through to the IRS, [1:56:06] but when they get through, they are passed from one person to the next. [1:56:09] Nobody can really help them. [1:56:11] And it is not until the taxpayer advocate gets involved that we get true answers for our constituents. [1:56:16] And the taxpayer advocate team has been degraded, and we have fewer and fewer of them. [1:56:22] So I would really hope—I'll ask you a question for the record on this—that you all will consider strengthening the taxpayer advocate office [1:56:30] to make sure that constituents can get real-time answers to their questions and get their refunds when they are due. [1:56:37] Thank you. [1:56:40] Senator Lujan. [1:56:41] Mr. Chairman, Senator Warren has been here a little bit longer. [1:56:43] If I could yield to him. [1:56:44] Well, I'm not going to give everybody else that opportunity. [1:56:48] I gave her a little bit of leeway because I mistreated her earlier and gave her the floor and took it away. [1:56:55] Five minutes. [1:56:58] Proceed. [1:57:02] What? [1:57:03] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:57:06] You giveth, the chairman taketh away. [1:57:09] Proceed. [1:57:10] Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the time. [1:57:15] Sir, as you know, today is tax day. [1:57:17] And I want to follow up with Senator Hassan's question there at the end about the time that it's taking people, [1:57:25] you know, when they're calling in. [1:57:26] I think you committed to everyone here that backlogs and wait times were going to improve under your leadership. [1:57:33] And I think that you even reported to the House Ways and Means Committee on March 4th. [1:57:38] Excuse me for a moment. [1:57:39] I think I misunderstood your question. [1:57:41] Were you asking to yield to Senator Warnock first? [1:57:43] Yes, sir. [1:57:44] Oh, I totally misunderstood you, Mr. Chairman. [1:57:47] I know. [1:57:49] But please go ahead, Senator Warnock. [1:57:51] Thank you, Senator Lujan. [1:57:56] Thank you, Brother Chairman. [1:57:57] The Trump administration has repeatedly attempted to weaponize the IRS against its political opponents, [1:58:05] which would potentially violate both the law and the First Amendment. [1:58:08] In April and May of 2025, President Trump threatened to revoke the tax-exempt status of Harvard University for political reasons. [1:58:20] In the September memo, President Trump directed the IRS to investigate tax-exempt entities over their alleged ties to what he considers political violence and domestic terrorism. [1:58:32] In December, IRS, the IRS and the FBI created a task force to execute the president's directive. [1:58:42] Mr. Ben-Bizengiano, welcome to the committee again. [1:58:48] How many IRS agents have been detailed to the Department of Justice? [1:58:53] I think 15. [1:58:56] Fifteen? [1:58:57] One five. [1:58:59] Okay. [1:59:00] Has the president, the vice president, any White House staff, or the Treasury Secretary requested that the IRS audit, prosecute, or investigate any particular taxpayer or entity? [1:59:17] No, sir. [1:59:20] If such an unlawful conversation ever occurred, you would immediately report that to Congress, including all members of this committee, correct? [1:59:28] The answer is yes, but I would never expect that to happen. [1:59:31] But the answer is yes? [1:59:32] Yeah. [1:59:33] Okay. [1:59:34] Thank you. [1:59:35] Last month, you testified before the House Ways and Means Committee that you were, quote, 100 percent confident that the IRS would not initiate an audit based on political views. [1:59:46] I hear you're saying the same thing today. [1:59:48] Do you stand? [1:59:49] I can assume you stand by that commitment, as you've already stated. [1:59:52] Will you also commit that the FBI and IRS task force will never investigate anyone based on their political views? [2:00:03] Yes. [2:00:05] Yes. [2:00:06] I mean, I just want to be very clear. [2:00:09] You know, if you look at the people within IRS that work on these type of items, they sit with the enforcement group. [2:00:21] And if you look at that, 70 percent of the time, it's on IRS tax-related items. [2:00:31] 30 percent of the time, and this has been consistent over time. [2:00:34] Only because my time is limited. [2:00:36] Be consistent. [2:00:37] I think that is very important, sir. [2:00:39] I apologize. [2:00:40] 30 percent of the time, they're asked to work on other things. [2:00:43] Because, you know, the Brown University murderer was found by these type of agents. [2:00:50] Right? [2:00:51] So, it's not an unusual item where we go work with the FBI to solve problems. [2:00:58] And Brown University… [2:00:59] Let me continue because I… [2:01:00] Yeah, sure. [2:01:01] I just want to make sure you're clear. [2:01:02] Both the president and attorney general have directed their task force to investigate groups that support, among other views, quote, opposition to immigration enforcement. [2:01:15] These are the words of the administration. [2:01:16] In January, this administration falsely labeled Renee Nicole Good, a domestic terrorist. [2:01:24] In your view, if a nonprofit organizes a nonviolent protest against ISIS abuses, can that ever be the basis for an investigation by this task force or the IRS? [2:01:37] Definitely not. [2:01:39] How about bringing litigation against ICE or another federal agency, even the president? [2:01:45] Would that ever be the basis for an investigation? [2:01:47] No. [2:01:48] If the president announced on social media that he wanted to audit the ACLU, say, for example, or NAACP, I take it that you would ignore that directive? [2:02:00] Is that a correct assumption on my part? [2:02:03] Yeah. [2:02:04] We operate within… [2:02:05] Yes or no? [2:02:06] Is it a correct assumption that you would ignore a request from the president to investigate the ACLU? [2:02:17] If he announced it on social media? [2:02:18] I said yes. [2:02:19] I said yes. [2:02:20] Because last year the president said in the Oval Office that he was looking into a nonprofit's tax-exempt status. [2:02:29] So these aren't theoretical questions I'm asking. [2:02:32] He said that he was looking into a nonprofit's tax-exempt status, the citizens for responsibility and ethics for, quote, going after Donald Trump. [2:02:44] These are the president's words. [2:02:45] Based on your answers, can you confirm that the IRS never acted on the president's statements? [2:02:53] Yes. [2:02:56] That you never acted on his… [2:03:00] Never acted. [2:03:01] Okay. [2:03:02] The president has criticized, quote, environmental insurrectionists for raising the alarm about climate change. [2:03:07] Can you confirm that these comments have not influenced the IRS? [2:03:12] No. [2:03:14] They have not. [2:03:15] No, they have not. [2:03:16] No influence on the IRS. [2:03:17] And there's been nothing asked of the IRS to do. [2:03:19] Vice President… [2:03:20] Vice President Vance has also criticized the Ford Foundation, specifically noting its tax-exempt status. [2:03:26] Can you confirm that this statement also has no influence on the IRS in your decision to have an investigation? [2:03:33] 100 percent. [2:03:34] 100 percent confirmed. [2:03:35] So, I'm going to submit to you a written question for the hearing record asking for a detailed report of how many investigations this task force has initiated, including data on the number of investigations into organizations that support President Trump and his policies versus those that oppose his policies. [2:03:55] Will you commit to providing my office and this committee with that information in writing? [2:04:00] Submit it. [2:04:02] Yeah. [2:04:03] Yeah, submit it. [2:04:04] Yes. [2:04:05] Submit it. [2:04:06] Thank you so very much. [2:04:09] Senator Lujan. [2:04:10] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [2:04:14] Appreciate that. [2:04:15] As I was starting, we've all been reminded today is April 15 tax day. [2:04:22] And the question that I have follows something that Senator Hassan was asking about, which is wait times. [2:04:28] There was testimony I think you provided to the House Ways and Means Committee recently on March 4th that said, quote, we feel really good about the staffing levels, unquote, and that, quote, wait times on the phone are single digits. [2:04:41] Are wait times shorter now than when you took over or longer? [2:04:42] Are wait times shorter now than when you took over or longer? [2:04:44] Well, take the developed level of access report from the inspector general. [2:04:50] Mr. Chairman. [2:04:51] It says that 45% of the time, 45% improvement. [2:04:55] Mr. Chairman, I don't even know the complexity. [2:04:56] Is it longer or shorter? [2:04:58] That's all that I need to know. [2:04:59] Is it taking longer for people now or is it taking people less time on the phones? [2:05:03] Well, it's taking single digits and it took single digit minutes before. [2:05:10] Okay. [2:05:11] But 500, 500 million. [2:05:13] Mr. Chairman, I had a statistics professor in college that says statistics don't lie, but [2:05:17] liars can figure. [2:05:18] Is it longer or shorter? [2:05:19] It was same, single digits, whatever. [2:05:21] Is it longer or is it shorter now? [2:05:22] We know the answer. [2:05:23] Weight where? [2:05:24] Weight where? [2:05:25] Weight times when people call the IRS, sir. [2:05:26] Is it longer or shorter? [2:05:27] We know the answer. [2:05:28] Well, I'll answer for you. [2:05:30] If they reach an agent, it's nine minutes and 500 million times they've been online instantaneously [2:05:41] and hundreds of thousands of times they're doing it through a bot. [2:05:46] So there's multiple ways to be served and to be served across the board better than they [2:05:51] ever have. [2:05:52] Let me ask the question this way. [2:05:53] Is that tax payers are waiting on the phones longer now than when you took over? [2:06:00] Is that an affirmative? [2:06:01] Yes. [2:06:02] It's doubled. [2:06:03] That's the answer. [2:06:05] A lot of gotcha. [2:06:06] If you only care about that one statistic, then you don't care about getting tax returns [2:06:11] processed or if you don't care about- [2:06:13] Tax returns? [2:06:14] Let me ask that question then. [2:06:15] Are tax returns being returned to people faster or slower under your leadership? [2:06:20] Way faster. [2:06:21] You are going to say on the record that people are getting their returns faster and that the [2:06:26] tools that you instituted are actually working? [2:06:28] A hundred percent. [2:06:29] Okay, Mr. Chairman. [2:06:30] There's another unfactual statement based on reporting that's come out of GAO as well, [2:06:35] which is not necessarily a liberal organization led right now, but I'd like to follow up with that. [2:06:40] So over 90% of refunds are in people's hands in less than 21 days. [2:06:46] Mr. Missignani, we can use the GAO reports and you can refute them if you want. [2:06:50] We'll submit them into the record and that way the chairman and his staff can look to see what's factual [2:06:54] and what's not factual. [2:06:56] Good. [2:06:57] There was an issue raised by the ranking member at the beginning of this. [2:07:01] And my question, sir, is, is it correct that you live in New Jersey? [2:07:06] I live in New Jersey, yes. [2:07:08] Are you aware that President Trump has instituted an in-person work requirement for all federal employees? [2:07:14] A hundred percent. [2:07:16] You're aware that that went into effect January 20th, 2025? [2:07:19] A hundred percent. [2:07:20] Do you work at the IRS office in Washington, D.C., Monday through Friday? [2:07:24] No. [2:07:25] I also work at the Social Security office. [2:07:27] In Washington, D.C., you're here Monday through Friday? [2:07:30] No, I'm in Maryland. [2:07:31] You're in Maryland or in Washington, D.C., Monday through Friday? [2:07:35] No. [2:07:36] No. [2:07:37] You're asking me a question. [2:07:38] I'm telling you where I am. [2:07:39] What I'm trying to get to is there's report after report that's suggesting that you work two days a week. [2:07:44] Well, those reports are dead wrong. [2:07:47] So you're saying on the record that you're working in Maryland and Washington, D.C., Monday through Friday, five days a week? [2:07:54] No, I may be in Georgia. [2:07:56] I may be in Florida. [2:07:57] So are you following the president's executive order? [2:08:00] I'm at work in an office of hours every day. [2:08:04] So, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to submit into the record a New York Times article that has laid this out with as many as five people familiar with the schedule of what the work schedule is. [2:08:15] I just don't know if President Trump's approved a two-day week or not, but that might be something we want to look into. [2:08:21] Because I think the president doesn't like when people that work for him that he appoints ignore his executive orders. [2:08:27] I'm just trying to get the truth out of that. [2:08:29] Without objection. [2:08:30] Thank you. [2:08:34] Senator Tillis. [2:08:35] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [2:08:37] Mr. Bissig-Nano, thank you for being here. [2:08:40] On that last exchange, I find it hard to believe that you're hanging out in your gym shorts in New Jersey doing Zooms all day. [2:08:47] So I'm going to take it face value that you're probably moving across the country, going to the various offices with big presidents and presidents of IRS employees. [2:08:56] So I'm going to answer that question for you. [2:08:59] But I do appreciate my colleagues on the other side of the aisle asking people to honor the president's executive orders. [2:09:06] That's great progress. [2:09:07] And, Mr. Keyes, it's good to see you. [2:09:09] I also think it would be helpful to submit to the record. [2:09:15] I used to do customer relationship management, the firm that I worked in. [2:09:19] All of the stats are important. [2:09:21] The end result, getting the filings, getting the returns are most important. [2:09:25] So I think it would be very helpful for you to submit to the record all of the vital statistics on your customer relationship management, customer experience for the record for this hearing. [2:09:34] I think, on the whole, you're going to find they're good. [2:09:36] I'm also glad that the free file system has come down. [2:09:42] What I'm curious about is whether or not we're going back. [2:09:49] I was against free file from the beginning. [2:09:51] I felt like we should be working with people in the private sector who have free file systems to incent that because that eliminates an infrastructure need. [2:10:00] All the other things that the IRS should have never gotten into. [2:10:04] So I'd like to get some reports on what the stranded cost was and how you're ramping that down. [2:10:08] No need to. [2:10:09] I know you've had a long hearing. [2:10:11] No need for details today. [2:10:13] Also wanted to mention to Senator Warnock's comments. [2:10:17] I'm not sure. [2:10:18] He wasn't in the Senate at the time, but I was kind of curious when Lois Lerner and the IRS had keywords like tea party, patriots, 912 project clearly targeting. [2:10:30] Hopefully they can memorialize for the record that that was inappropriate targeting because that was blatant and happened under the watch of some of the people on this committee. [2:10:37] Who were serving at the time. [2:10:40] I wanted to talk with you. [2:10:42] And by the way, I think one of the reasons why we may have more calls is people figuring out how they're able to take advantage of some of the jobs and tax cuts provisions that were implemented last year. [2:10:55] There are some new provisions. [2:10:56] My guess is I know some of the implementation has been delayed, so they're going to have to refile to get the benefit of some of them. [2:11:03] I think that's a legitimate reason to have more calls and have customer service telling people how they're going to save more money as a result of congressional actions last year. [2:11:13] There's a good reason sometimes for people to call the IRS. [2:11:16] And I also want to thank a number of the people in the IRS that my office works with every day. [2:11:22] They do extraordinary case work and we get great feedback from them. [2:11:27] I have personally called some of the staff and some of your regional offices to thank them for the extraordinary work they're doing. [2:11:34] And I appreciate that work. [2:11:37] I had two things I want to talk to you about from a business perspective. [2:11:40] One is some of the efficiency cuts, whether it be those or decisions that you all have made. [2:11:48] Not for you to respond now, but I'd like to get details on reductions that are sustainable that we should be looking at in terms of booking as a savings. [2:11:58] Around here, we've got to go back to the administration and find where we can actually identify savings and funding. [2:12:05] And I think that that's one area for all agencies I'm asking. [2:12:08] Where can we save? [2:12:10] Where are we getting sustainable savings that are bookable savings? [2:12:14] Going back to the business world that you and I used to live in, it's got to be there. [2:12:19] It's not a savings unless you book it. [2:12:21] It's aspirational up to that point. [2:12:23] Let's start talking about some of the good sustainable savings. [2:12:26] And I'd like to get a report back maybe for the record or you can submit to my office. [2:12:31] And then finally, the tax gap. [2:12:34] You know, to me, it was always the fake pay for. [2:12:38] Everybody comes here and they say, well, if we just get more agents or more people, then we're going to pay for this other program through the tax gap. [2:12:45] It's almost about as bogus as using the employee retention tax credit as a pay for, which I've been pretty consistent on. [2:12:53] But I would like, if we could, to set up a meeting, actually similar to a meeting that we had with Senator Crapo and the ranking member before on what should we really expect out of the tax gap. [2:13:06] I think what you're going to find out is a third of the tax gap is really good tax policy from tax advisors. [2:13:12] It's not recoverable because it's legal. [2:13:15] The middle one is probably the one that we can get back. [2:13:18] The lower third, it's not worth going after because it's relatively low wage earners. [2:13:22] That's at least my mental construct. [2:13:24] I'd like to meet with you and maybe get the update. [2:13:26] I did get one from the IRS commissioner so that we can be realistic about what we can possibly draw down. [2:13:31] I call it the addressable tax gap. [2:13:34] Yep. [2:13:35] Good. [2:13:36] So, well, thank you for your time. [2:13:37] I want to finish on time. [2:13:38] Thank you. [2:13:40] Thank you. [2:13:41] Thank you, Senator Tillis. [2:13:42] And Senator Wyden would like to ask. [2:13:44] Oh, wait. [2:13:45] Senator Marshall came in. [2:13:46] Yes, Senator Marshall. [2:13:47] Okay. [2:13:48] Well, thank you, Chairman. [2:13:49] And welcome, Commissioner. [2:13:50] Good to see you. [2:13:51] I just want to stop and say thank you. [2:13:53] You have a great American story, and I hope folks back home are listening. [2:13:59] A kid from Brooklyn, New York, is that what I remember? [2:14:01] Yes, sir. [2:14:02] And you end up in Baldwin City, Kansas, the Baker University, an all-American varsity athlete, [2:14:10] end up as a financial guru. [2:14:13] You know, it's just that a kid from a small-town college can be just as successful. [2:14:20] And it's not lost upon me that this is a service that you're doing. [2:14:26] Much like going to the military, what you're doing now is giving back to this country and [2:14:31] bringing your expertise. [2:14:33] I'm grateful for it, and there's many Americans that are grateful for it as well. [2:14:38] I'd like to start with it's tax day. [2:14:43] This is the day that most Americans dread. [2:14:47] In my research, I found out that maybe 60% of Americans typically get some type of a refund. [2:14:52] But this year, I think the number is going to be over 70%. [2:14:56] And it is significant numbers. [2:14:57] The numbers I'm seeing are $2,000 to $4,000. [2:15:00] Hardworking families, probably that $2,000 refund is probably closer. [2:15:04] And sure, people making over $400,000, they're going to get that bigger refund. [2:15:08] But what I'm impressed with is your attention to detail and specifically operational and technical expertise. [2:15:17] Can you briefly speak to what you're doing to improve things? [2:15:20] And what majors are you using to say, indeed, we are operationally improving and our technical process is improving as well? [2:15:29] Yeah, I think, first of all, I think one of the most impressive stats we have is 500 million visits and queries to IRS.gov, which is a 60% improvement. [2:15:45] That didn't just happen because people woke up and thought they should use the system more. [2:15:49] It happened because we built way more capability for them to use. [2:15:53] And that changed the amount of phone calls we actually got. [2:15:56] We actually got less phone calls than last year. [2:16:00] While that happened, I think, you know, the idea that we were able to raise electronic filing even by a full 1% from 97% to over 98%. [2:16:15] And I think, you know, I hear people want to dismiss the item or they have some report of something other than reality. [2:16:22] The fact that over 90% of people are getting refunds in 21 days or less is unheard of. [2:16:33] So how did that all happen? [2:16:35] It happened with the good work of the people in the organization and preparedness and discipline, management discipline to oversee and discuss every week the progress. [2:16:48] So I think the idea of being a digital first agency is appropriate. [2:16:53] I think that's what the American public, they want to be met where they want to be met. [2:16:59] If it's in the taxpayer service center, if it's in on the phones or if it's on the web. [2:17:05] If I could just kind of go that beating people where they are. [2:17:08] My staff back home is very supportive of VITA, Volunteer Income Tax Assistance. [2:17:13] Yeah. [2:17:14] I know the folks from K-State Extension are helping people with their taxes. [2:17:17] Probably why more of those are going forward and hope that you continue to support those. [2:17:23] I kind of got a one-off thing, a 45Z issue with Dodge City, Kansas and an anaerobic lagoon. [2:17:30] I'm going to submit that question and ask you how to get back with us on that. [2:17:35] I did want to just brag that we led this no tax on overtime wages. [2:17:42] I grew up with a family that worked by the hour and just was so frustrated in my years when I was working overtime, [2:17:51] trying to get myself through school, getting high taxes on that. [2:17:54] I think it's the most successful of all the no taxes, no tax on overtime, 23 million people. [2:18:00] Any comments on that one? [2:18:02] Yeah. [2:18:03] I mean, you know, I think it's, I think, and I've heard it from people. [2:18:08] I say maybe the most interesting thing is people want to work overtime now more than they did. [2:18:14] Yeah. [2:18:15] Thank goodness. [2:18:16] So business owners are benefiting from it. [2:18:18] The people are benefiting from it. [2:18:21] Over 25 million filers. [2:18:25] And I'd say they're getting a deduction of $3,100, a little over $3,100 each. [2:18:32] I mean, that's real money. [2:18:34] You guys have done a fabulous job in what you created. [2:18:37] Thanks for implementing it. [2:18:38] The last one I'll tee up for you is I was trying to review the numbers of IRS employees [2:18:43] and maybe in 2019 I'm seeing 78,000. [2:18:47] It ballooned to 103,000 under the previous administration. [2:18:52] I'm not sure where those numbers are now, but more importantly, give you a sense to brag. [2:18:58] I feel like you're getting more done with less people. [2:19:00] Yeah. [2:19:01] I mean, I'm a deep believer in Parkinson's law. [2:19:04] And, you know, I think the org, technology is a great enabler. [2:19:08] We have to get the benefit of everything we implemented. [2:19:13] So, and I think, I think we have a highly motivated staff. [2:19:16] I think we have a highly motivated staff has done a great job. [2:19:19] Thank you. [2:19:21] Good to see you. [2:19:22] Thank you, Mr. Marshall. [2:19:24] And Mr. Bizzignano, Senator Wyden has one more question and then we will conclude the hearing. [2:19:29] Mr. Bizzignano, today, of course, is tax day. [2:19:34] And we're wrapping it up with hard evidence of how you and the Trump administration are making this day needlessly painful, [2:19:47] particularly for working Americans. [2:19:50] They're wondering this morning why they have to pay hundreds of dollars to big tax prep companies when filing returns ought to be free. [2:20:03] And the fact is millions and millions of people around the world get to do just that. [2:20:12] And this is another example, in my view, of Donald Trump doing more to make life more expensive for working Americans. [2:20:24] And I know that you're going to come back with saying, well, 2 million people are being helped with what we're doing. [2:20:33] The reality is, from independent experts, 100 million could benefit from direct file. [2:20:40] So I just like something that's not bobbing and weaving or, as in the case of Senator Whitehouse and Senator Hassan, I had to correct what was just an untruth. [2:20:54] So just tell me your opinion of why we can't have something like everybody else has around the world, which is being able to file simple returns for free. [2:21:08] We're not talking about sophisticated returns and the like. [2:21:12] But what's wrong with doing what we're talking about that matches what goes on all over the world? [2:21:19] What's wrong with that? [2:21:20] Well, it's not. There's nothing wrong with it. [2:21:23] And those options, those options exist. [2:21:25] Free file. [2:21:26] Why don't you do it? [2:21:27] Free file exists. [2:21:30] No, they still aren't getting the same thing that they're getting with direct file and the big firms are getting the benefits. [2:21:39] They get the chance to get all the visibility and all the attention. [2:21:42] That's why the rest of the world wants to directly help working families. [2:21:47] And I'm just maybe you want to send it in in writing. [2:21:50] But that's what I came here for today more than anything else, because that strikes me as something that's just common sense. [2:21:57] It's not blue and red. [2:21:59] It's just common sense. [2:22:00] Mr. Chairman, I don't think I'm getting an answer to this either. [2:22:04] I yield my time. [2:22:05] Well, thank you. [2:22:06] You know, I think I have some information I can share with you. [2:22:13] I'll do so after the hearing, Senator Wyden. [2:22:15] Well, let's start talking about how working families all over the world are getting what we have been pursuing. [2:22:23] And I've been at this for years, Mr. Bisignano, for years. [2:22:28] And it was always bipartisan. [2:22:30] And then along came Donald Trump, who made it partisan. [2:22:33] And I just think it's a big mistake for working families. [2:22:36] And for the life of me, I cannot understand why it's unacceptable to you that we do something that helps working families for free all over the world. [2:22:44] And I thank you for the time, Mr. Chairman. [2:22:47] Well, thank you. [2:22:48] Let me just share the information with you right now, then. [2:22:50] I mean, the bottom line is there are multiple free filing options available to taxpayers. [2:22:57] Seventy percent of all U.S. taxpayers are eligible for IRS free file, a private-public partnership. [2:23:04] In addition, there is the VITA, which is a program which provides volunteer income tax assistance to the elderly, [2:23:17] of which is available also for the elderly at a fraction of the cost to the government and to the people of preparing these returns. [2:23:27] 2 million, 2.1 million people are using these private-public partnerships. [2:23:34] That is a fraction, I would say, to the chairman of the people who ought to have the opportunity to get direct file. [2:23:41] Well, let me just tell you the number, okay? [2:23:43] The number who did use the direct file system when it was being implemented by the IRS was 296,531 people. [2:23:53] That's compared to 2.7 million who use the VITA free system and 2.1 million who use the free file free system. [2:24:00] And the cost of that 296,000 who are using, who were using that direct file program was phenomenally high to the IRS. [2:24:10] All I'd say, Mr. Chairman, as I know that the big prep firms spend a ton of money lobbying all over the country and all over Washington, [2:24:19] because they've been doing it to my proposals for years now. [2:24:24] And the reality is there is no common sense reason to not do what is being done around the world. [2:24:30] And I think we'll continue the discussion you and I have had on this for some time. [2:24:35] All right, we will. [2:24:36] Okay. [2:24:38] It should be stated again, though, that Senator Wyden and I are working very closely together on a taxpayer assistance bill [2:24:45] that's going to provide a lot of good reforms that we can find agreement on. [2:24:48] And we are finding bipartisan support for that. [2:24:51] And I just want to say to you, thank you, Mr. Bizzignano, not only for being here today at this hearing, [2:24:56] but for the service that you're providing both at the Social Security Administration and at the IRS, [2:25:02] you are bringing top-notch, qualified, capable leadership to reforming and improving the function of both of these agencies, entities. [2:25:13] And I thank you for that. [2:25:16] We've had an outstanding tax season. [2:25:18] And no matter how they come at it trying to say that it wasn't, [2:25:21] it's improved over the previous tax seasons that we've had. [2:25:24] And the thing that I liked most about what you are doing is you are bringing technology reform into the government. [2:25:31] You're bringing us into the 21st century in terms of being able to serve people through technological advances [2:25:38] and, you know, the digital economy. [2:25:41] And we have pushed for years to get the IRS to do this. [2:25:46] You're doing it. [2:25:47] And thank you for doing that. [2:25:49] And with that, this hearing is concluded. [2:25:51] Thank you, sir. [2:25:52] Thank you, sir. [2:25:53] Thank you.