Tucker Carlson on Iran, MAGA and Trump — The World with Yalda Hakim

[0:00] Good evening and welcome to a special edition of The World. Live from New York, I'm Yalda Hakim. [0:05] We'll spend tonight's program gaining a window into Donald Trump's world from someone who knows [0:11] it inside out, Tucker Carlson. Over the past decade, the conservative political commentator [0:16] became one of the most influential figures in the MAGA movement, helping to popularize the [0:22] America First agenda. But he's since fallen out with the president he once championed, saying [0:28] Trump broke a fundamental promise when he dragged America into war with Iran. And he believes it'll [0:34] destroy not only Trump's presidency, but MAGA as well. Do you think this war is the beginning of [0:41] the end of Donald Trump? Of course it's the end. Of course. Of course it's the end. And I said this [0:45] to him in February. I said what he already knew. Tucker Carlson also offered me his contentious [0:55] views on the war in Gaza. We debated the influence that Elon Musk seeks over UK politics. [1:01] And I pressed Carlson on his own presidential ambitions. But we'll begin with Iran. I sat down [1:07] with Tucker Carlson shortly after the U.S. and Iran signed their memorandum of understanding or [1:12] interim agreement. Have a listen. Well, I'm amazed by the new treaty at Versailles that was signed [1:19] yesterday. I'm just amazed by it. In fact, when I first saw it, I thought it was fake. There's so much [1:24] lying going on, as there is in any war, but particularly this one, that I just didn't believe it could be [1:29] true for a bunch of different reasons. Obviously, it's an admission of failure, of defeat of the [1:36] United States by Iran, which is the world's 34th largest economy. So it's just a remarkable [1:43] admission. So it signifies a movement of power from one sphere to another. But it also signifies a [1:54] profound and, I think, permanent change in the relationship between the United States and Israel, [1:57] which is something that I was never that interested in for the last couple of years, [2:01] and particularly since this war began in February, has been the focus of my attention [2:04] because it's been the defining fact of America. And I think with this, that changes in ways that are, [2:11] you know, very hard to predict. But the outlines are pretty obvious. Like, there's no going back to [2:17] where we were after this for a bunch of different reasons. And after the president made a series of [2:22] statements, which were just shocking to me, hilarious because they're true, but amazing. I mean, [2:28] the president of the United States stood up, I think, in Europe at the G7 two days ago and said, [2:34] you know, what, I like Bibi, nice guy, good partner, you know, the caveats. But what he's doing in Lebanon [2:42] is just brutal. It's just brutal. Blowing up apartment buildings because of drones. I mean, come on. [2:47] I don't think it's all Netanyahu at all. But I think someone like Ben Gavir, Smotrich, or, you know, [2:54] a number of different cabinet ministers are, you know, well, of course, bloodthirsty, [3:00] but don't consider non-Israeli lives fully human. I mean, it's obvious by what they say. [3:04] They've said that. And their law is now reflected within the state. I grieve over that as someone [3:08] who's liked Israel for a long time and been there a lot and has a number of Israeli friends who are [3:14] totally reasonable, decent, good people. I grieve over what's happened to that country. But it's, [3:19] it's a stain on the conscience of the world. And so when Trump says that, he's absolutely right. [3:25] And I want to talk to you about Gaza, Lebanon, you know, go into more detail on these issues. But [3:32] you've said a couple of things there that I want to sort of talk about a little bit more. You said [3:36] that, you know, this, the idea that Donald Trump four months ago went into a war partnering with [3:43] Benjamin Netanyahu, and he's now criticizing him in the way that he is. Why do you think and how do [3:49] you think this evolution happened over the course of the last... Well, I don't, I mean, [3:53] it's something that I've really meditated on for the past 110 days since it started, because I was [3:58] so close to the process. I mean, I was talking to Trump all the time. I was in Washington three times [4:04] in the last month talking to Trump about this, trying to argue against a regime change effort [4:09] in Iran, because I thought it'd be terrible for the United States. I thought it'd be the end of [4:12] American empire. I thought the United States would wind up retreating for the Middle East. And those [4:16] may be good things, by the way. I don't, you know, who knows? But I thought that it would be terrible [4:20] for the US dollar. And I thought Americans would die. And I told him all of those things. And he [4:25] knew that those were risks, realistic risks, and he did it anyway. So I don't know why. There were [4:30] no advice, maybe Rubio secretly, but there were certainly no advisors loudly encouraging this [4:37] around him. I don't think. Dan Cain, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, I don't think so. So like, [4:40] why did he do this? And I have a number of theories. I don't know if they're true. [4:44] So I won't bore you with them. But he was certainly following the lead of Israel, as he said. [4:51] I think Trump was sincerely, he allowed himself to convince himself that killing the Ayatollah, [4:58] the head of Shia Islam, would somehow collapse the country. RIC, or various intel agencies, [5:02] told him that wasn't true. The Israelis told him it was true. When a couple of days in, it turned out [5:08] to be totally false. I think he was enraged. He knew he was trapped. He knew that the American [5:13] economy was at stake. The global economy was at stake. And I think he immediately blamed Netanyahu [5:19] for it. Do you think then ultimately the last four months has made the United States weaker? [5:25] Much weaker, of course, much weaker. Now, my view, and this is a view that I have come to in the last [5:31] couple of years, just from traveling a lot, and it's an evolving view. So who knows how I'll feel [5:37] when the facts come in a year from now. But I think we had an unsustainable empire that was not [5:43] serving the interests of the republic, of the country itself. And it cost too much. I think it [5:49] degraded our politics. I think it sucked up the attention of our leaders. Much more interested in [5:55] defeating Islamic jihad than in ending homelessness. Like, that's a misalignment of goals and values. [6:01] Like, that can't continue. But you spent a lot of time telling him this stuff. [6:06] But my point is, like, why did it fall to me? You know what I mean? Like, there are people paid to [6:11] give this advice. But I watched. And there are some good people there for sure. Some smart, [6:18] well-meaning people. But there weren't a ton of people who were willing to march in there and say, [6:22] this is nuts, man. This is nuts. And you're being sold a story that's not true. And not hate against [6:30] Israel. Like, I understand they've got a different perspective from ours. They have different goals [6:33] from ours because they're a different country. But if you follow this path, you will be entrapped. [6:38] This is a trap. I did tell him that. He didn't like it at all. But it was true. And it wasn't [6:44] just true. It was obviously true. Well, the person who did make the case was Benjamin Netanyahu. And [6:50] he, you know, advocated for this. But he hasn't advocated just to Donald Trump for 25 years. For 30 [6:56] years, he's been advocating to president after president. I mean, why Trump? You're absolutely [7:02] right. The core premise of your question is undeniable. Many presidents have faced this pressure. [7:06] only Trump caved. That's just a fact. So I, as I said, I don't know why. There are, I mean, [7:16] he wasn't hypnotized. He just swallowed it. He may have been hypnotized. That's real. People are [7:22] absolutely hypnotized. I know a lot of people have been hypnotized. I have been hypnotized. I mean, [7:26] of course, people are hypnotized all the time. But on an issue like this? What do you think love is? [7:31] But on an issue like this? Of course. We're all hypnotized from time to time. Words have power. Words [7:38] change reality. But this is a president who... We hypnotize ourselves all the time. But, but you, [7:43] you supported him. So many likes. I didn't just support him. I campaigned for him. I mean, [7:48] I was, by the way, and we'll talk about this. I was at the RNC when you spoke. No way. I was. And [7:53] you spoke. And, you know, you were convincing and compelling. I had no notes. I meant it. But, [7:58] but, you know, to come out, to campaign for him, to support him in the way that you did, [8:04] and then for him to campaign on a no war, no forever wars, and for it to, to end up like this, [8:11] no one was as shocked as I was. Yeah. So my calculator, first of all, I would just say is [8:17] I try to force myself to say always, I was wrong. I've been wrong about a lot of other things, [8:22] including the Iraq war. So I am capable of being not just wrong, but very embarrassingly wrong. [8:27] So that's just a fact. Why was I wrong? It's not like I didn't know Trump had flaws. I know Trump [8:34] intimately. I know Trump really, really well. And I've always liked him, but I know what he's like. [8:41] And so I was eyes wide open in some ways. But my calculation was, and it seemed obvious, that if, [8:49] I mean, from my perspective, what the country needs is a choice. And the Republican Party, [8:55] the Democratic Party are identical in their core assumptions about the economy and foreign policy, [8:59] which is what matters. And I thought Trump was an option. [9:02] Are you talking to Trump at the moment? No. [9:05] You haven't spoken to him since? I have not. February 28th. I spoke to him the 27th. I haven't [9:09] talked to him since. I don't hate him. I feel sorry for him. What he did is a catastrophe. [9:15] He knew it would be, he did it anyway. So the question is why? [9:18] I want to quote you, because you say the war in Iran has taught us that the people you elect [9:22] aren't even in charge. Someone else is. In this case, Benjamin Netanyahu. Yes. [9:27] What are the long-term effects of a population understanding that voting [9:30] doesn't make a difference? Exactly. [9:32] I mean, I guess... It's scary. [9:34] But I ask because Donald Trump has stopped this war now. And Benjamin Netanyahu, [9:40] you have said in this interview, this is a dangerous moment for Israel. [9:45] Big time. [9:46] Benjamin Netanyahu is concerned. He has said, this is not my deal. This is not my ceasefire. [9:51] I reserve the right to defy it if I need to. [9:54] But that is Donald Trump in charge, right? [9:58] I don't know if it's Trump in charge. I mean, he's certainly taking a different course than he did [10:03] 110 days ago, for sure. Radically different. And he's blaming his failures on Netanyahu, [10:09] which is predictable and well-deserved. Like, I'm not mad about it. And I think Netanyahu is [10:14] obviously a criminal. And I don't feel sympathy for him after all the innocence he's murdered. But I do [10:21] feel sympathy for Israel just because there are a lot of nice people in Israel and they don't deserve [10:25] this. Nobody deserves this. And as I said, I think this is... I want to be honest enough to admit, [10:31] I think this is a very... an actually threatening, not a fake theatrical threatening, but actually [10:36] threatening moment for Israel. So I feel bad about that. But all I know is what I saw. Trump was not [10:42] enthusiastic about doing this. He knew the risks. He thought the risks were real. He told me that. [10:46] And he did it anyway. And he did it against the advice of his own intelligence agencies and against [10:51] the wishes and maybe in some mild cases, the advice of his own advisors. So why did he do that? At [10:59] whose behest did he do that? He wasn't enthusiastic about it. He'd said for 10 years he wasn't going to [11:03] do it. He thought it was a bad idea. He campaigned against regime change wars in the Middle East. [11:07] A lot. Not just parenthetically, but it was a central position. And so far as I could tell, [11:14] having talked to him about it many, many, many times, I think it was heartfelt. [11:18] And I guess another US president dragged into a war in the Middle East that they say they either [11:23] didn't want to start or move away from him. For me, it's quite personal what happened in Afghanistan [11:29] with Joe Biden and the way that they... the shambolic way that they withdrew. And that for me was a [11:35] defining moment for Joe Biden's presidency. It felt like the beginning of the end of his presidency. [11:40] Do you think this war is the beginning of the end of Donald Trump? [11:44] Oh, yeah. Of course it's the end. Of course. Of course it's the end. And he... and I said this [11:48] to him in February. I said what he already knew. [11:52] But do you think that the lines are being drawn right now? Because we're seeing a lot of the vice [11:57] president now coming out, defending this deal. He said fundamentally, it was worth it. That's what [12:03] he said yesterday or the day before to Megyn Kelly. And then what was worth it? The deal? [12:08] The... the... the war, the deal. It was worth it. [12:11] Well, what are you going to say? It wasn't worth it. [12:13] I mean, all these Americans died. It cost us tens, maybe hundreds of billions of dollars and will cost [12:21] more going forward. So like, it... it's a tough pill to say it was... wasn't worth it. I mean, [12:26] this was all pointless. Like, no one wants to hear that. No one wants to say that. No one wants to [12:30] believe that. So I... I certainly give him a pass on that. But no, JD, I think the vice president has [12:37] been very clear about his views. I don't think there's any world in which President JD Vance would [12:43] have done this. I mean, there's literally no chance of that, I think. But he's the vice president. So one of [12:49] his jobs is to support the president. And he's done, I think, a very good... a very good job of [12:53] that. It's tough. Who'd want that assignment? But from what I know of JD Vance, and I know JD Vance, [13:02] was a really decent man. I will just say that. And I know that to be true. His view is, rather than, [13:09] you know, throwing up your hands and saying, I can't deal with this. I'm out. You violated my principles. [13:14] His view is, if you're in a position of authority, you do your best to make the best of a bad situation. [13:21] And he has done that. [13:21] That's Tucker Carlson. And we'll come back to more of that interview in a moment. But [13:28] let's just bring in our U.S. correspondent, David Blevins. David, good to see you. We're just [13:32] listening there to Tucker Carlson, describing this deal as a failed deal, capitulation, surrender. [13:39] Obviously, the White House is not saying that that's what this deal is. [13:44] DAVID BLEVINS, Yeah, obviously, Yelda, there are many people who believe Tucker Carlson has an agenda. [13:50] But in your interview with him, I think he doesn't just come across as angry, [13:54] but genuinely disappointed in President Trump, a man in whom he expressed so much faith. [14:01] But his suggestion that the war in Iran was a catastrophe and marks the end of the Trump [14:08] presidency and the end of MAGA, I think, ignores several important factors. Firstly, [14:14] that the political coalition around Donald Trump has endured worse shocks. The outcome of the 2020 [14:20] election, for example, the January 6 raid on the Capitol, all of those criminal indictments, [14:26] and also the civil judgments. I think it's also worth remembering that while many Republicans did [14:32] vote for Donald Trump on that campaign pledge not to bring them back into a foreign war, they do [14:38] distinguish between a short-term military intervention. And remember, that's what they have repeatedly been [14:45] told this is. And another Iraq, if we can put it like that. To them, the outcome of all of this [14:52] matters much more than the decision taken to go to war or to go into a military intervention in the [14:59] first place. And they now have this 14-point memorandum of understanding that despite what [15:05] other people think of it, they're being told illustrates that America has met its various objectives. [15:11] And I think there are another couple of things worth thinking about as well. The Republican base tends [15:15] to be more hawkish than Tucker Carlson's audience. They are open to the idea of military intervention [15:23] when it is framed as preventing Iran from having a nuclear weapon. And then MAGA, well, MAGA is bigger [15:31] than just foreign policy. You and I know that. Think about the trade wars. Think about the immigration [15:36] issue. Think about the culture wars. And I think when you bring all of those factors into play, [15:42] Tucker Carlson may be just a little premature in suggesting that the Iran war signals [15:47] the end of the Trump presidency. [15:48] TUCKER CARLSON, The Trump administration has about 60 days before the nuclear talks begin. [15:58] And those 60 days will be crucial. And there are concerns that perhaps the United States might get [16:03] dragged back into this war, something that I discussed with Tucker Carlson as well. Is that [16:09] something that Donald Trump's base or even wider than that, Americans in general, are worried about? [16:16] Well, it's really interesting, Yelda. We will hear again from the president this evening, [16:21] the first event marking the 250th anniversary of America. We heard from him last night in the [16:27] battleground state of Pennsylvania. And I expected to hear him say much more about Iran. He didn't [16:33] really talk about the issue. He simply said they're never going to have a nuclear weapon. And to me, [16:39] that suggests that he knows that this is just parked right now, rather than over. Because they [16:44] might claim in the memorandum of understanding that they have dealt with the issue of Iran's nuclear [16:50] capability. But as you point out, the only thing they have agreed is that they are going to talk for [16:55] another 60 days in an attempt to find an agreement. And we're getting a completely different version of [17:02] that memorandum of understanding from Iran. And therefore, I think the base know that Donald [17:07] Trump is trying to bring this to an end. They probably recognize that he needs to find that [17:12] off ramp, because that's the only way we're going to see petrol prices come down and grocery prices [17:17] come down. And those things are really going to matter now that we are just months away from the [17:22] midterm elections. [17:23] I'm going to keep you there for the moment. And we're going to take our viewers to the next part [17:30] of this interview on Gaza, Tucker Carlson's strident condemnation of Israel's conduct in the war [17:36] has made him enemies on the left and the right of the political spectrum. But it's significant for [17:42] such a prominent conservative to take this stance. I asked him about the United States' responsibility [17:47] for what's happened in Gaza. Have a listen. [17:49] It's profound. The last administration, this administration, both of them allowed this, [17:56] paid for it, ran cover for it. Israel's been criticized throughout Europe, throughout the [18:01] world, really, for its behavior, fairly. And the United States has attacked any country [18:07] in any international body, including the United Nations, who stands up and says, well, what is [18:12] this? This is a genocide. And we attack them. No, no, we've made this possible. The United States [18:16] made this possible. And that's one of the reasons that the idea that, like, criticizing Israel's [18:21] behavior is anti-Semitism. It's like insane. I'm not playing along with it. Actually, that [18:27] position creates anti-Semitism, which I oppose. But it's also, like, the truth is, and I just [18:32] said it, I'll say it again. This is largely the fault, big picture, of the U.S. government. [18:39] The U.S. government has paid for this and allowed it, encouraged it for generations. And we should [18:46] not be surprised that the end result is genocide. We shouldn't be surprised. Like, this has been [18:51] coming for a long time. Israel has completely changed. I feel sorry for Israel, but the Israel [18:56] that I first visited decades ago bears no resemblance to modern Israel. [18:59] Is the United States complicit? [19:01] Of course. We paid for it. We made excuses for it. We made it possible. And there are weapons, [19:07] obviously. Of course we're complicit. That's one of the reasons I'm upset by it. That's my country. [19:12] These are my tax dollars. This is my reputation. This is the moral authority of the nation that my [19:18] ancestors built. So, yes, I feel very implicated in this and enraged by it, and not primarily [19:25] enraged at the Israelis, who I think are delusional for a bunch of different reasons. I don't think [19:32] that's an Israeli-specific phenomenon. We felt a little bit of that after 9-11, when people brought [19:40] the lies about 9-11. There were many lies about 9-11, but the net result was to convince Americans [19:44] that they were under siege from global Islam, that there were a billion people trying to kill [19:49] them. I felt this way myself. And many times I said on television, the problem is Islam. The [19:54] problem is Muslims. Like, they all want to kill us. They're all crazy. They're all in this lunatic [19:58] suicide cult created by Muhammad in the 7th century. And I believed that. I was hysterical. I believed [20:06] that. Now, that's not true. Nothing about that is true. But I believed it. So it's a little harder [20:12] for me to judge Israelis when they're like, every Arab, Christian or Muslim, it doesn't matter. Arabs are by [20:18] definition committed to the extermination of Jews, and we must kill them before they kill us. [20:22] Like, they believe that. I think people are capable, I know, because I have felt it myself, [20:27] are capable of believing things like that, but they're deranged. And when you do believe [20:31] something like that, what you need is a clear-thinking adult to correct you, just as your children [20:35] need it when they go crazy, which they do. And your job as the parents be like, no, that's [20:40] actually not real. Settle down. There are universal standards that apply to everybody. Some people [20:45] are bad. Some people are good. That's true of all people, including you. So settle down. I've [20:50] had this talk with my own children. I'm sure you have too. And we should have that talk [20:53] with Israel, but we haven't. Because of blackmail and threats and weakness, there are a lot [20:58] of reasons why Israel has been able to control the United States for decades. But it almost [21:04] doesn't matter what they are. It's ending. And I hope that we can restore, I mean, I hope [21:09] that the people responsible for the genocide in the US and Israel are punished. They will [21:13] be. I'm confident of that. After that, I think, I hope that we can have a normal relationship [21:18] with Israel, you know, an allied relationship with Israel, a happy, normal, healthy relationship [21:23] with Israel, not a master-slave relationship with Israel. That doesn't work. [21:28] I mean, this is all very bleak. [21:30] It's not bleak. It's good. It's good. These, no, it's good. Look, crimes will be punished [21:36] in this life or the next. But the one thing we know is that justice exists. It's a physical, [21:42] it's a natural reality that we have no control over. When you do something, all is revealed [21:47] in the end. Period. And so the people responsible for killing innocents will be punished for [21:53] that, as they should be. [21:54] You've spoken about justice and punishment and those who have either been complicit or [22:00] funded the situation, the war in Gaza. Does that include, you know, seeing Joe Biden [22:07] punished, Donald Trump punished? [22:09] Of course. Of course. And, you know, punishment, you know, there's no hope. [22:13] What way? Well, there'd be no formal punishment for the leaders of anything in the United States [22:16] because our leaders are exempt from punishment formally. I mean, you mentioned the Afghan [22:22] withdrawal. The only person punished for that debacle was Stu Scheller, who was a Marine [22:25] colonel, who complained about it. And they put him in jail for complaining about it. But [22:28] the people who planned it and executed it and resulted in the deaths of a dozen Americans [22:33] and God knows how many Afghans, they were rewarded for it. So, like, our system is broken [22:39] in the most basic sense. People who tell the truth are punished. People who lie and kill are [22:45] rewarded. [22:46] I wonder, Tucker, where this leaves the future of the MAGA movement? [22:51] The future of the MAGA? Well, that's over. There's no future of the MAGA movement, obviously. [22:57] We're done. [22:58] This war caused the end? Yeah, it doesn't. I mean, what is the MAGA movement? Trump has [23:03] defined it as whatever he wants. Well, that's not a movement. That's a tick. That's a preference. [23:08] It's like, what do I feel like having for breakfast this morning? Well, today it's, you know, the [23:12] pancake movement. It'll be Eggs Benedict movement tomorrow. Like, it's not a movement. It's just [23:18] like a, it's a desire. But you believed in it. Well, I never understood what it was. No, [23:23] I never believed in MAGA. I believe in making America great again. I certainly believe in [23:27] its literal definition. But its operational definition was never clear. What I believe [23:32] in is putting your country first. If you're leading your country, of course, its concerns [23:36] are at the top of your list of concerns. In the same way that your children's concerns are [23:41] more important, your children's needs are more important to you as a parent than your [23:46] neighbor's kids' needs and concerns. You're the parent. That's nature. Again, that's [23:51] just natural. There's something crazy or fascistic about that. In fact, any other form of government [23:55] is crazy and fascistic. Every other form of government is tyranny. That's the only legitimate [24:00] form of government where the leaders put, not to the exclusion of everyone else's concerns, [24:05] like you don't have to hate your neighbor's kids to love your own. You can love all kids. [24:10] But if it comes down to it, you put your kids first because you're their parent. And that [24:13] same worldview has to be the way the US government operates in order to be legitimate. [24:19] And that's what America first means. And so I will never stop believing that. I think [24:24] every other American believes that too. The phrase America first scares people because [24:28] it's like Nazi or something. But in real life, there's no other way to run a government. [24:32] And I still believe that. And this war was the most obvious betrayal of that. We didn't [24:37] go to war to protect our own interests. We went to war to serve Israel's interests. They've [24:41] said that out loud. So this is not a conspiracy theory. That's contemptible. That's wrong. [24:47] Let's go back to our David Blevins, who joins me live from Washington. And David, we were [24:54] hearing there from Tucker Carlson talking about the responsibility of the US president when [24:59] it came to the war in Iran. And then, of course, the responsibility that the United States needs [25:06] to take in its role in Gaza. I asked him there whether the United States is complicit. And [25:12] he said, yes. I wonder how the White House would react to that. [25:16] I think the administration would argue that Israel acts alone. And they would point to [25:24] recent spats, Yalda, between President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu. Not very long [25:29] ago, Trump described Netanyahu as effing crazy, for example, for continuing to bomb southern [25:35] Lebanon while he was trying to negotiate a deal with Iran. And just last week, we had [25:40] Vice President Vance in the briefing room at the White House very publicly rebuking the [25:46] Israeli cabinet. That's unheard of from a US administration, Republican or Democrat. He [25:52] effectively said to them, you shouldn't criticise Trump's deal with Iran, because we're the only [25:56] ally you have in the world right now. I think they would also argue that support from the [26:02] US for an ally, whether that is in military aid or intelligence sharing or diplomatic cover, [26:08] whatever it happens to be, does not amount to an endorsement of every action by that ally. [26:13] And then I think also they would argue that despite the fact that there are many people [26:18] around the world who would believe that Israel's occupation of Gaza has gone way beyond international [26:24] war crimes or disproportionate use of force, it has not been adjudicated a genocide by an [26:30] international court. And then I think it's worth also adding the strategic argument that [26:35] the administration makes, that they only got involved in this because they wanted to bring [26:39] the war in Gaza to an end and to see the Israeli hostages come home. And to a very large extent, [26:45] President Trump did achieve that. [26:47] AMNA NAWAZ- David, thank you so much for joining us. Now, let's go to Jason Zengale, [26:55] a political reporter at The New Yorker, who's written about Tucker Carlson. Thank you, Jason, [26:59] for joining us here on the program. I spent over an hour talking with Tucker Carlson. And, [27:05] you know, I could see even within the interview, his evolution ideologically, this is something [27:11] you've documented, you've tracked over many years, you've written a book about it. [27:15] Just talk me through that, you know, how he sort of went from this preppy conservative, [27:21] Bush Reagan conservative to what he became in terms of being so vocal within the MAGA movement, [27:27] and now a massive critic of the president. [27:30] JASON ZEGAL, Well, you know, he did. He started out on the neoconservative right when he wrote for [27:35] a magazine called the Weekly Standard. And as he said in your interview, he was a supporter of [27:39] the Iraq war. But when the Iraq war went bad, he was really one of the first prominent conservative [27:45] supporters of the war to disavow his support. You know, it was about nine months in, and he said it [27:49] was a terrible mistake, and he regretted supporting it. And he had had private doubts that he'd pushed aside, [27:54] and it was a huge regret that he had. But in addition to announcing his support or his lack of support for [27:59] the war, he actually really started to reevaluate kind of his own views. And it led him down this [28:04] road that, you know, we've seen for probably the past 20 years or so, where he became a critic of [28:09] interventionist foreign policy, became a critic of free trade deals, he became a critic of more [28:14] immigration. He really started to follow the views of Pat Buchanan. And that eventually led him to [28:20] being open to someone like Donald Trump. And when Donald Trump came into the office, came into office the [28:25] first time. Tucker was then at Fox News. And he was supportive of Trump's policies. He wasn't [28:31] necessarily supportive of Trump the person. And he actually kind of kept a little bit of distance [28:35] from Trump personally. But he was very supportive of Trump's policies. And when he thought Trump was [28:40] kind of, you know, wavering on policies that Tucker himself believed in, he would be willing to [28:44] criticize Trump, including, you know, when Trump attacked Iran during his first term with some missile [28:51] strikes. Tucker was very critical of that. The thing that's different this time is when Trump ran [28:55] for president the second time, Tucker threw in with him entirely. Like he mentioned in your interview, [29:00] he campaigned for him. He spoke at the RNC. And he really identified himself with Trump. And the thing [29:07] I think that he most identified himself with Trump is this idea about America first foreign policy, [29:11] non-interventionism. So the fact that Trump has now gone to war on Iran for Tucker is, you know, [29:15] the ultimate betrayal. And that's led him to this position now where he's denouncing Trump [29:21] where he's saying he's not going to be a Republican anymore. That's kind of the journey that he's been [29:26] on. Yeah. And we saw that even within the interview where he talks about where he was 20 years ago at [29:34] Fox, where he was a few months ago, even, you know, a strided sort of supporter of Donald Trump [29:39] and where he is today. That relationship with Donald Trump is incredibly complicated. We've seen that [29:46] through text messages that were leaked during his first presidency, where he sort of openly talks [29:51] about his disdain for Donald Trump and then the huge amount of support he's given Trump over the [29:57] course of the last few years. Do you think that that relationship is likely to be repaired given, [30:04] you know, that both the two men are also quite pragmatic? Yes. I think that's a nice term for it. [30:11] Um, you're never, you're never fully out of Trump world. I mean, you're, you can always be welcome [30:16] back in, especially if you, you know, submit, which is what Tucker did to get back in after the first [30:21] falling out after January 6th. Um, you know, Tucker says that he was, you know, he feel he's disappointed [30:28] in Trump and he's, he's, he's sad that this has happened, but you know, he's always been very clear [30:32] eyed about Trump and he, he knew what he was getting himself into this time. He made, I think, [30:36] you know, a cynical bargain to, um, attach himself to Trump because he needed to attach himself to Trump [30:41] because he had lost his job at Fox and he wanted to stay in the public eye. And so therefore he [30:46] needed, he needed to be with Trump to stay relevant. And at the same time he did that, he, he did achieve [30:51] a lot of influence in the Trump administration. And I think he thought that he would be able to talk [30:56] Trump out of this war on Iran. He had certainly been able to wield his influence in lots of other [31:00] ways in the administration. I think he assumed that he would be able to do so this time. And then when he [31:04] didn't, he had to, uh, obviously break things off. I thought the most interesting part of your [31:09] interview actually, or at least the parts that I saw was what he said about JD Vance. Um, and the [31:13] idea that, you know, president Vance would not have done this. And I think that's been one of the big [31:16] questions about where Tucker Carlson goes from here. Um, JD Vance is, you know, obviously going to be [31:22] running for president in 2028. Um, is, is he once upon a time, it seemed like certainly, uh, Tucker would [31:27] support JD Vance as with Donald Trump. It'll be really, really interesting to see if, if Tucker finds his [31:33] way back in maybe through Vance, because he seems to be absolving Vance of, uh, of this, of this [31:39] decision to go to war on Iran and, and not, not hanging it on him. And I think that's fairly [31:43] significant. Yeah. Yeah, very much so. I mean, when I sort of put it to him that JD Vance had become [31:49] almost like the face of this deal, he said, you know, I'll give him a pass on some of those things, [31:53] because obviously he's got to, he's the vice president. He, his whole job is to support, uh, [31:59] the president. I, I put his own political ambitions or whether there are any to him, [32:04] whether we'd likely to ever see a president Tucker or a running mate with, uh, JD Vance. Do you think, [32:10] um, you know, that, that those ambitions are there? Because everything I've read and seen, [32:15] many people who say they know Tucker Carlson very well say he doesn't have those ambitions. [32:20] He himself said to me, I, I'm not the kind of person who hides how I feel. If that's what I want [32:25] to do, I'd come out and say it. But do you think that, that it's beneath the surface, [32:29] he has his own political ambitions? I don't think he has, you know, [32:34] personal political ambitions. I don't think he's someone who has wanted to run for president [32:38] since he was a kid or has a burning desire to be president or vice president or anything like that. [32:43] I do think he has a very, um, you know, he has a political project that he wants to see accomplished. [32:50] And I think if, if he decides that the only way it can be accomplished would be to run for office [32:54] himself, either as, you know, at the top of the ticket or maybe as a vice president, [32:58] I think he would go ahead and do that. I think that he, he is very interested in achieving certain [33:02] political outcomes. And, you know, for a long time now, for the past 10 years or so, [33:07] he's been able to use Trump as a vehicle or for a while JD Vance as a vehicle. [33:11] If I think, if he comes to the conclusion that he himself needs to get into the arena to achieve [33:15] these things, I think he would do it. But I don't think, I think his friends who say he doesn't [33:19] have sort of this personal desire, I think that's true. I don't think this is something he wants to do [33:23] just for the sake of doing it. But I do think that he is, he is sincere in his political beliefs [33:28] and what he wants America to be. And I think that he will do what he has to do to see if he can [33:32] accomplish those. [33:33] MS. Jason Zengalea, thank you very much for joining us here on the program. [33:38] Jason Zengalea, thanks for having me. [33:39] MS. Well, let's get the thoughts now of Aaron David Miller. He's a former U.S. State [33:44] Department Middle East negotiator, now senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. [33:50] Thank you so much, Aaron, for joining us again on the program. [33:54] As you know and are aware, I've done this extensive, wide-ranging interview with Tucker Carlson. [34:00] He's spoken about a range of issues from the war in Iran, the war in Gaza, his views on what's [34:06] happening in the Middle East, obviously Donald Trump, the future of MAGA. But if I can take you [34:11] back to some of the things that he was saying about Gaza, for example, the majority of Democrats [34:17] and Republicans wouldn't agree with how Tucker Carlson has categorized the war. But are you [34:23] surprised when you hear someone like Tucker Carlson, someone who is so close to Donald Trump, [34:28] the MAGA movement, the Republican Party, come out and say the sorts of things he is now saying about [34:33] Gaza? [34:34] You know, thanks so much. I'm sorry I didn't get to listen to the interview. I'm sure it was [34:39] extremely revealing. Look, I can't analyze, you know, I'm not a Tucker Carlson expert. [34:46] I think the issue here, to me, putting aside Tucker Carlson's influence, is what is the state of [34:57] the U.S.-Israeli relationship? And has Tucker Carlson's views on this relationship fundamentally [35:04] moved the ball to a point where the tough and unprecedented rhetoric that both Donald Trump has [35:11] used and J.D. Vance has now joined in. That's extraordinary. No American president or vice [35:19] president has ever said publicly what Donald Trump has said about Benjamin Netanyahu, let alone leak [35:26] the profanity-laced to-wings and fro-wings of cell phone conversations with the prime minister where he's [35:35] questioned the prime minister's judgment and mocked him. The question is, as the question always is, [35:43] in the real world, that is the world of policy, has anything happened or occurred that would [35:50] fundamentally move Donald Trump from tough words and rhetoric to the actual imposition of costs and [35:57] consequences on Israel? And that, by the way, goes for the Democrats as well. That party is now deeply [36:03] divided. You have a minority of progressives that want to impose severe sanctions and costs and [36:09] consequences on the Netanyahu government. You have other more mainstream Democrats, the three Chris's and [36:15] Holland Murphy and Coons, who talk about conditioning military citizens. And you have most Democrats who [36:21] were not elected to debate U.S.-Israeli relationship policy in Washington, who by and large, I think, [36:29] are still quite supportive of the idea of Israel, the security of Israel, the people of Israel, obviously not so [36:35] much Donald Trump. So, to me, that's the relevant issue, the question that you should be asking. [36:42] Is Carlson's rhetoric and the sort of moving of the MAGA base away from Israel, [36:53] is it going to have an impact on policy? And let me be very clear what I mean. [36:58] Is the president of the United States going to condition restrict or end U.S. military assistance to [37:03] Israel? Is the president of the United States going to withdraw the United States from the intimate [37:09] security and intelligence sharing with the Israelis? Is the president of the United States going to [37:16] abandon Israel's international forum, introduce their own security counter resolutions at the U.N. [37:22] or vote for someone else's? I mean, those are the core questions that will determine whether or not [37:30] what we're watching. Your interview with Tucker Carlson and many of the other interviews he's [37:35] already given, and others as well, would have an impact. That, to me, is the central question. [37:41] I'm not sure the answer is... I've just got a couple of minutes, and I just... [37:48] Yeah, that's what I wanted to... I've just got a couple of minutes, but I just wanted to ask you, [37:52] in terms of public opinion in the United States shifting, the sorts of things the vice president is [37:57] saying, and the president, which we've not ever heard before from American leaders and politicians, [38:03] make, if it doesn't happen under a Trump presidency, you know, shouldn't Israel of today be concerned [38:09] that after Trump, given public opinion is shifting in the United States, that relationship and policy [38:15] is likely to change as well towards Israel? 100%. Without a new Israeli prime minister, [38:21] and Israel's a right-of-center country, without a new American president, I think this relationship [38:29] is going to continue to be under severe stress, because the three foundational supports are under [38:34] stress. The value affinity, that we share common values with the Israelis, high coincidence of interest, [38:41] we depart on significant issues, particularly the Palestinian issue, and then, finally, the erosion of a [38:46] strong, sustainable, bipartisan support for Israel. Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu single-handedly [38:54] have undermined the notion of bipartisanship, which was taken for granted. Israeli behavior, Israeli [39:02] policies, and Donald Trump's trying to turn the Republican Party into the go-to party, the only [39:09] party that really supports Israel. That's what Trump believes. That's been incredibly destructive. [39:15] You get a new Israeli prime minister and a new American president committed to something quite [39:21] different. And I suspect that much, much, not all, Israel is a center-right country and moving [39:28] rightward. Much of the tension that may actually eat. Aaron, we're going to have to leave it there, [39:39] but thank you so much for joining us here on the program. And thanks for having me. The UK has been [39:46] another country frequently in Tucker Carlson's sights for criticism, but it appears he could be changing [39:52] his tune. Before we go on to that, I put another key question to him. Will we ever see a President [40:00] Tucker? Have a listen. That's literally the last thing I think I would want to do, [40:06] that I'm suited for. I just don't think I'm a natural politician. Donald Trump wasn't? [40:13] Yeah. You know, Trump had a couple of qualities I don't know that I have. I mean, there's a lot [40:17] of qualities I don't think I have, but one in particular, man, that guy's tough. He's really [40:23] tough in a truce. I mean, he's weak on the other hand, obviously he got pushed into a ridiculous war. [40:30] But on another level, he's really a tough man. Whatever you think about what happened at Butler, [40:35] he really was shot in the ear. The man behind him was killed by the bullet. So that actually happened. [40:41] You get shot and you stand up and do that. Can't be rehearsed. I know there's a lot of theories [40:46] about how it's all a set up. Come on now. I talked to him that night. I called him that night [40:52] that he was shot and he was fine. I mean, he's tough and you have to be tough. They go after your [41:00] family. I've already gone after my family in a very big way. And I find it so upsetting. I can [41:04] barely focus. I love my family. I don't want, they didn't sign up for this, you know? So the idea that [41:10] you could take that level that your children could be targeted and his have been targeted with [41:15] like potential prison sentences on fake charges and then keep going. I mean, I don't know, man. [41:22] But it's not a hard no. [41:24] Well, it's a hard no as of now. Yeah. I mean, I don't have any desire. I don't know that I [41:33] would be willing to trade the safety and happiness of my family for that. [41:39] Can we take a moment to talk about Elon Musk? Yeah. Because there are many in Britain who [41:45] are concerned that he is trying to undermine Britain's democracy, that he's- Britain's what? [41:52] Democracy. You guys don't have a democracy. What are you talking about? We do. We do. We do. We do have [41:59] a democracy and we can talk about all of those issues. George Galloway would be the prime minister [42:03] if you had a democracy. We can talk about all the issues that you're concerned about, including [42:07] free speech. I just love George Galloway. I just want to say that. I'm sure he'll be very happy to [42:11] hear that. I love George. He knows. I've told him a million times. He's living in exile. He can't [42:14] even go back to the UK where he's from. But there are concerns that Elon Musk is amplifying falsehoods. [42:23] This is- What kind of falsehoods? Well, I mean, you know, I can- Well, everyone in the media is [42:27] amplifying falsehoods. Like- Yeah, but he's got- he's the richest man in human history and incredibly [42:32] powerful and 200 million followers on a platform that he owns. And he says things like civil war [42:38] is inevitable in Britain. It's just not. I don't want civil war in Britain or anywhere else. But [42:45] it's just not going to happen. Well, we'll see. I mean- I mean, you know, I've spent the bulk of my [42:52] adult life covering civil wars in Iraq and Yemen, Afghanistan, Syria. They're awful. It's just not [42:58] what's happening in Britain right now. Good. Then I mean, I just want to be clear. I don't, [43:01] I don't know where Elon said that or what his views on that are. But I definitely am opposed [43:07] to civil war because I've seen them also. And they're generational too. They don't just like [43:12] stop. Their effects are felt for generations. So yeah, no, I'm totally opposed to civil war. [43:18] I don't want that, which is one of the reasons, the main reason why I think we need to rebalance [43:22] the system to give people a little bit more power, a little bit more control over their lives. [43:25] That's it. And the problem with Britain, we were talking about this before we went on the air, [43:29] I often beat up on Britain. I'm half English, so I feel like I have a right to do [43:33] that. I have family there. So I'm like entitled to criticize Britain. But honestly, [43:37] the criticisms that I level against Britain are probably even truer in the United States. [43:42] It's just Britain is smaller, less than a third the size. So it's like, [43:46] it's like a dollhouse version of the United States. And you can sort of see all of your problems [43:50] reflected in Britain. So I'm, I'm sorry if I'm too mean to Britain, but I don't think you have a [43:57] democracy because like, here's the measure. The big things that government is doing, does the majority want [44:02] them? And the answer is no. The idea that, you know, illegal immigrants are overrunning [44:07] the country, it's just not true. We're arguing past each other. You're making an argument that's [44:12] not related to what I'm saying. You're saying are people wanting this or not? [44:17] I'm saying they never wanted it. There's no evidence that people ever, the people who were born [44:20] in Britain did not want this level of demographic change. There's no evidence that they did. And there's [44:26] a massive amount of evidence that they never did want it. And that's, let me, let's get up Britain, [44:30] because you're from there. I'll talk about my country because it's identical. [44:33] No, but what I wanted to get... So that's not democracy. If you keep getting something [44:37] you didn't want, you're not in control. But democracy is then having some time with [44:41] the government that you didn't want the policies of, and then you wait, and then you vote again [44:45] for the next... This is generational. This is generational. It's been going on since the end [44:50] of the Second World War, where on the big questions, the population gets the opposite of what it wants, [44:54] no matter who it votes for. And the Iran war is the, is the example. It's the perfect example. [44:59] People literally voted against an Iran war when they voted for Trump. [45:03] We've spoken so much about foreign interference, you know, in the sort of system of the United [45:11] States and the concerns you have around sovereignty and democracy. That is the feeling that people have [45:17] with Elon Musk's interference. They feel that he is encouraging violence. [45:21] I get it. No, I think it's a smart point. I don't know specifically about Elon, but I do think [45:26] when you have an economic system in which the overwhelming majority of the rewards go to a [45:31] small group of people, that puts that group in charge by definition. And so I'm not a traditional [45:39] leftist. Maybe I'm a traditional leftist, but I'm not a leftist, down with white colonialism or whatever [45:45] they're into, up with the trans movement, all this nonsense. But like, I agree with the traditional left [45:51] on this one point. If you have this concentration of wealth in this few hands, it's very hard for [45:59] anyone else to have any power at all. So you can't, by definition, have democracy. I do think that [46:04] that's true. And I would say the idea that Elon is the threat, when Elon owns one social media platform- [46:10] Incredibly powerful guy. I guess. He's providing an alternative. He's like Trump in that sense. [46:16] He's providing an alternative. So there's him, and you can say, well, I agree or disagree, or he's done [46:20] something that's reckless or I think is bad. Got it. But compared to what? Like every other media [46:27] organization in the United States is saying one thing. They're for neoconservative foreign policy [46:32] and neoliberal economic policy. And then there's Elon, who's like, well, he's got his views, but then [46:37] he opens it up to other people's views. And some of those people are for neoconservative foreign policy [46:41] and neoliberal economic policy, and some of them aren't. So like, okay, yeah, it's not a defensive Elon [46:47] to say, I'm glad that we have an alternative to CBS News and Fox News and CBS and NBC and [46:52] CNN and MSNBC and the New York Times and the Washington Post and like The Economist and every [46:57] other news organization in the world has one position. And Elon has a kind of buffet style [47:04] set up where you can kind of pick and choose what you want. Well, I mean, I guess my, the concern that [47:09] many have is that when he says things like violence is coming for you at a, at a massive rally of a far [47:16] right activist, Tommy Robinson. Tommy Robinson's not far right. Tommy Robinson? Tommy Robinson's a total fraud, [47:23] like an utter fraud. But at one of those rallies, I mean, Elon Musk did say, you know, [47:29] It's not even his name. The whole thing is fake, dude. No, I don't care about Tommy Robinson, [47:35] who's like, literally like whatever, the Nick Fuentes of Britain. It's like fake. It's made up. [47:41] What I care about are ordinary Britons of all colors who see their country becoming something [47:48] that they didn't sign up for, that they don't want. And they have no way to change the outcome. [47:53] Well, I spoke to Rory Stewart, the former conservative MP, who is co-host of The Rest is [48:00] Politics podcast. I asked his take on the way Elon Musk has intervened in British politics. [48:06] It's amazing because what you have is Elon Musk appearing on huge screens in Trafalgar Square, [48:14] backing Tommy Robinson, who's a convicted criminal. You have Elon Musk putting the whole social media [48:21] engine of X behind a man called Rupert Lowe. And what we're seeing there is the wealthiest man in [48:26] the world with an extraordinary social media platform deliberately promoting elements of the [48:31] far right. But it's not just true in Britain. This is a much wider phenomenon. It's also true of [48:37] backing, for example, the alternative for Deutschland in Germany, and generally leaning in behind groups [48:43] who drift around ideas that Elon Musk and Tucker Colst and the far right share about immigration. [48:50] What was extraordinary, we had quite an exchange about this. And there was one moment where he concedes [48:58] that perhaps he himself, he went too far and he apologizes to Britain. But at the same time, [49:07] when we talk about, you know, Elon Musk saying things like civil war is inevitable in Britain, [49:13] he sort of says, well, you know, I don't want to see civil war in Britain, but concedes that perhaps [49:18] some of these statements have gone too far. What do you think all of this is about? [49:24] Well, fundamentally, these kinds of characters are dishonest. Tucker Carlson is very good at being [49:32] homely. And sometimes, obviously, in the interview, he'll concede that he's got things wrong. But [49:38] you'll notice that he's got a base, and he's got backers, and there's people he's not going to turn [49:43] about. So he's not really prepared to come out firmly against Elon Musk. Again, around this issue of civil war, [49:50] I presume Tucker Carlson knows that this is absurd. That actually, as he acknowledges in the interview [49:58] with you, if there's any country that's close to a civil war of this sort, the kind of he's talking [50:03] about, it's probably the United States. In fact, it's kind of weird projection. Almost everything that [50:07] he and Elon Musk say about Britain are really statements about the United States. They don't really map [50:12] onto Britain very well at all. But he can't quite concede that. And why can't he quite concede that? [50:18] Because, and I found this when I was a politician in the Conservative Party, [50:23] people on the right can't ever quite bear, if you're on the far right, to be honest, [50:29] because it might be conceding a little bit too much to the center of the ground, [50:32] and it might not pump up your core supporters in the way that you want, [50:36] even if it involves saying ludicrous things like Britain's on the verge of the civil war. [50:40] Yeah, I talked to him about that projection. I said to him, are you projecting your own anxieties [50:47] about your own country and your own society onto Britain? We went through some of those, [50:54] you know, census facts and stats, things like life expectancy, for example, things like immigration, [51:01] crime rates, infant mortality rates. It was an interesting moment, Rory, because, [51:09] you know, on the one hand, you're saying, you know, they can't quite concede that they're [51:13] they're wrong because they want to continue to pump their base. But on the other hand, [51:18] he did sort of concede that, yeah, you know, on many levels, Britain is doing much better than [51:25] most American cities. So perhaps we are, you know, almost projecting the anxieties of our own country [51:32] onto you. Well, look, Tucker Carlson is a complicated, interesting guy. And, you know, [51:37] he will occasionally say things which are true. He'll occasionally say things which are brave. [51:44] And different factions, including people from progressive left can get excited by Tucker Carlson [51:49] from time to time when he's on their side. But the fundamental thing remains, [51:55] what you've pointed to is the statistics show immigration is coming down in Britain, [52:02] a violent crime is reducing Britain is a safer society than it was five years ago. And yet, [52:08] Tucker and Elon Musk and others are trying to portray Britain as though it's a kind of mad, [52:15] London in particular, kind of mad land occupied by jihadis wielding knives, you know, and it really [52:21] gets through. I mean, I get a number of Americans saying, are you safe? Are you sure you're [52:26] okay in Britain? And when something's that off beam, you know, so far from reality, [52:33] there's something psychological going on. And part of it is projection. But the other thing which is [52:38] even more disturbing is it's sometimes wish fulfillment. You get the idea that Elon Musk is [52:44] saying there's a civil war in Britain, because he wants there to be a civil war. And in fact, [52:48] in that famous appearance in Trafalgar Square, he's saying fight, fight, fight. [52:52] When you say that, you know, sometimes the left get excited about some of the things that Tucker [52:57] Carlson says is because perhaps the right and the left are aligned when it comes to things like [53:02] the war in Iran, for example, the war in Gaza, what's happening there as well. And we see both sides of [53:11] the spectrum agreeing, even though they come from from those sort of extreme positions, they agree on some [53:17] of these fundamental issues when it comes to, you know, the war in Iran, for example. Do you think [53:23] that's an overall shift with the MAGA movement and the right? Or do you think this is just the views [53:28] of one individual who has an incredibly powerful platform and base? [53:33] I think Tucker Carlson and some of the rights are shifting. And definitely, they're very disappointed [53:41] that a Donald Trump who they thought was going to keep them out of war, has taken them into yet another [53:47] disastrous failure in the Middle East. I mean, it's sort of bewildering for them. But still, a very, [53:54] very large number of Republicans and MAGA voters continue to support Trump and continue to support him [54:00] in his interventions in Iran. In the background, though, there is a massive shift happening in [54:05] American politics in relation to particularly Israel. You can see this in the new type of [54:12] democratic candidates emerging. You can see that the cross-party consensus in the United States [54:17] around Israel of support for Israel is beginning to crumble. People are more reluctant to take funding [54:23] from groups linked to Israel. So there is something very interesting happening, both on the progressive [54:30] left and, as you say, on the right, represented by people like Tucker Carlson. But they're about [54:36] quite different things, I think. When the Republican right is usually criticizing Iran, it's criticizing [54:44] it on the grounds that they think it's a poor strategy that isn't winning. They don't have much sympathy, [54:49] I don't think, for Iran. The left may be more inclined to look at the issues of humanitarian suffering, [54:56] the killing that's going on, the school children, for example, that were killed on the second [54:59] day of the intervention. That's Rory Stewart, the host of the Rest is Politics podcast, giving me [55:08] his views on Tucker Carlson, Elon Musk and what they have been saying about Britain and Britain's [55:14] democracy. Extraordinary admission there from Tucker Carlson about his attitudes towards Britain, [55:20] saying that he admits that he has been mean when it has come to Britain. You can watch more of my [55:28] interview on Sky platforms and on our YouTube channel. Sky's YouTube channel will be platforming [55:36] more of that Tucker Carlson interview. But from me and the team here in New York, [55:42] the world returns tomorrow night from 9pm. The wrap is next and I will be back tomorrow night. For now, good night.