Trump vs. the news: Where do things stand in the U.S. media landscape? — Power & Politics

[0:00] These are anxious times for the mainstream media in the United States. [0:03] The latest flare-up coming this past weekend when President Donald Trump appeared on Meet the Press. [0:10] The election was rigged. It was a dirty election. [0:13] And it's happening again right now in California. [0:15] You've never presented evidence that the 2020 election was... [0:18] It's happening right now in California. [0:19] That's how they vote in California. [0:20] They're crooked, just like you're crooked. Your press is crooked. And Meet the Press is crooked. [0:24] To be fair, I'm not crooked. But let's continue. [0:26] Really? Well, you play right into their hands. [0:28] Let's continue. [0:28] You're either crooked or you're stupid. [0:30] You play right into their hands with this rap. [0:32] You know that these elections are rigged. Your network knows that they're rigged. [0:39] Let's talk about... [0:40] Your elections in this country... [0:41] We're like a third-world country. [0:43] Your elections are crooked. And you're crooked. And Meet the Press is crooked. [0:47] And so is ABC and CBS and CNN. [0:52] But, Mr. President... [0:52] Your one-sided crooked networks. [0:54] Let's call it quits, because I've had enough. [0:56] Thank you, darling. Have a good time. [0:58] Mr. President... [0:58] You want to straighten out your press, because you know what? [1:00] Mr. President... [1:01] A country can never be great with a dishonest press. [1:03] Listen, we traveled all the way to Wisconsin for this interview. [1:07] But it's not just the explosive and dramatic moments that are causing unease across the industry. [1:12] The change in ownership at CBS News has led to some dramatic editorial changes under the new editor-in-chief, Barry Weiss. [1:19] And it's led to the dismantling of the leadership and correspondent team at the legendary TV news magazine, 60 Minutes. [1:26] The latest move, the firing of Scott Pelley, a four-decade correspondent who carried the torch of legendary news figures such as Edward R. Murrow, Walter Cronkite, Dan Rather, and Mike Wallace. [1:37] After he was fired, Pelley accused Barry Weiss of editorial interference, of trying to change stories on the Minnesota ICE protests and the killings of Renee Good and Alex Pretty to better reflect the White House's version of events. [1:52] She was putting a thumb on the scale on behalf of the administration, just constantly looking out for the views of the president. [2:06] It was never enough. [2:08] Always needed more from the president, from the administration, that sort of thing. [2:13] The balance was off. [2:15] We've been working for balance for decades. [2:20] And for the first time in my career, the balance was off. [2:24] Right now, CBS News, in my view, is on fire. [2:30] The next inflection point in this news about the news will come later this year, when those new owners of CBS are set to acquire CNN. [2:40] Brian Curtis is the editor-at-large of The Ringer and co-host of the Press Box podcast, which covers the U.S. media landscape. [2:47] And, Brian Curtis, you're a busy guy these days with everything happening. [2:50] It's good to see you, Thur. Thanks for joining us here. [2:52] Nothing but fun around here, David. Thanks for having me. [2:55] Well, let's start with this Mary Weiss 60-Minute CBS situation. [3:00] When a guy like Scott Pelley says CBS News is on fire, that means something. [3:06] I mean, what do you view is happening at this network? [3:10] Well, the other word he used was murder. [3:12] And we should note, this is not a guy who goes on television and uses language like that. [3:18] Like, if you told me that Scott Pelley was constitutionally capable of describing anything in those terms, you know, he is not, say, the Donald Trump administration has murdered for an aide or Donald Trump's administration is incompetent. [3:30] He's the face of a very calm, rigorous newsman. [3:34] So for him to say that means it's something in his mind has really changed at CBS. [3:39] And I think what you hear in that clip you played there is he's saying, look, if we are going from a network that tries to get as close as it can to the truth to a network that gets as close as it can to the truth without angering Donald Trump, then something indeed has died. [3:56] Something has been murdered. [3:57] So this has been the change with Barry Weiss's elevation to editor-in-chief after the Ellison family, the owners of Paramount, acquired CBS. [4:06] Their next acquisition, it could happen at some point this summer, certainly by the end of September, is going to be the parent company of CNN. [4:14] And there's reporting in Axios today suggesting maybe Barry Weiss is also going to control CNN. [4:19] What are your thoughts on that potential change? [4:22] Because there's criticism of Barry Weiss for her ideological views, which is one thing, not having really any television experience, but building this CBS and one of the biggest cable networks on earth into her control. [4:34] Well, if there's a concern that she's put her thumb on the scale at CBS, then that concern gets so much worse if she is in charge of CNN as well. [4:43] I mean, you're talking about two gigantic television news organizations in the United States under the rule of one person and a person who, by the way, has not done a terrific job at the first place. [4:56] And we're not just talking about, you know, political sort of, you know, injecting politics in, as Pelley says. [5:02] We're talking about just managing the day-to-day affairs. [5:05] You know, part of her mandate at CBS was to take the network into the future, into the digital and streaming future. [5:12] She really hasn't done that. [5:13] She's done a bunch of old TV stuff like changing anchors and booking newsmaking interviews and stuff like that. [5:18] So this idea that news organizations should somehow be set up so that they do not anger the administration they're covering, I just think it's a massive concern, if not a total emergency. [5:31] What do you think the implications are, though, for CNN, right? [5:33] Because we have seen the White House and its many feuds with CNN over the years. [5:38] And, you know, in the landscape of cable news in the United States, MSNOW tends to be a very sort of progressive, leaning-in viewpoint. [5:46] And then you have Fox News. [5:47] CNN's kind of tried to straddle the middle to varying degrees of success. [5:51] What do you think it could mean coming under Weiss's leadership, if that's where it goes? [5:55] They've tried to straddle the middle. [5:56] And then you saw Donald Trump barking at Caitlin Collins, their White House correspondent and primetime anchor the other day. [6:01] So a lot that good that's done them. [6:04] Look, you know, I think when you talk about Donald Trump, he doesn't make a lot of distinctions between media that is in on the left, that's in the center, or even sometimes on the right. [6:14] Just look at that Kristen Welker clip you played a minute ago. [6:17] He was crushing all the networks, including CBS, which Pelley thinks has taken steps to try to make Donald Trump happy with him. [6:26] So this idea that, you know, somehow you're going to be in a certain part of the political spectrum and Donald Trump's going to let you off the hook, I just don't think that's the case. [6:33] But what do you think it means for the news consumer in the United States, right, in terms of how their diet of available options will change? [6:40] Well, that's a good question, because CNN here plays something like the role, at least historically, has of, say, the CBC or the BBC. [6:48] It is, as you say, something of a neutral news network. [6:51] It's a place you can go and get terrific foreign coverage when there's a war in Ukraine or a war in Iran. [6:56] And the idea that that would be politically tinged or that, let's just say, somebody like me would be watching television and would say, wait a second, can I absolutely trust this? [7:07] Has this been done to the rigor that I would expect from a network like CNN? [7:11] That's something that would, you know, I think limit our options just extraordinarily, right? [7:17] I mean, it starts to become a question of where do you turn? [7:21] Okay, we said there's New York Times, there's a couple of newspapers left. [7:24] But if you start losing news networks, then I think the American consumer starts to get into a place where it really becomes hard to figure out what to trust. [7:32] You have to wonder what's going through Anderson Cooper's head, who didn't renew his contract with 60 Minutes, signed off saying, I hope 60 Minutes remains 60 Minutes, and maybe the surmised reason he's leaving could end up taking control of CNN, where he is also one of the evening anchors, right, in terms of what that means. [7:48] But, you know, you mentioned the Kristen Welker clip off the top, and that kind of dramatic, yelly thing from the president, we've seen a lot of that. [7:55] But what leapt out to me there was him saying, the election is rigged, it's happening again, it's happening right now in California. [8:03] And you're hearing this more and more from Republicans and their online allies like Elon Musk around what's happening in Los Angeles, where you are now in the run-up to the midterms, that you can't trust elections. [8:14] So this shift in the media landscape combined with the resurrection of this narrative of vote rigging, I mean, what do you think that means for the United States right now? [8:23] It's part of a larger war on truth, isn't it? [8:26] I mean, the idea that Donald Trump continues to say, obviously falsely, that he did not lose the 2020 election, that expands to a larger critique, where no Republican can lose any election without the vote being rigged. [8:39] By the way, I'm coming to you from Los Angeles, and let me tell you something, there are a lot of Democrats in Los Angeles. [8:44] It would have been something for Spencer Pratt to advance even to the runoff, much less become the next mayor of L.A. [8:49] But I digress. But I think you're right to make the point that this is part of his war on the press as well, right? [8:56] So you declare, hey, I can't possibly lose an election. My allies can't lose an election. [9:00] But those people who are trying to do reporting, real reporting, bring you the truth, whether it's in a newspaper or on television, you can't trust them either. [9:10] So at the end of the day, I'm the only one you can trust. That's exactly what he wants. [9:14] I mean, that's the tone of all of his social media posts. That's the tone of him storming out with Kristen Welker. [9:19] That's the tone of the administration, by and large. [9:23] It's a thing we're seeing across a lot of the Western democracies, too, though, Brian, with populist political figures, right? [9:29] That the assault on institutions, the assault on expertise, the assault on media. [9:34] Like, I'm sure there were people watching this when you called the CBC a credible neutral newser who flinched, right? [9:40] Because we get it, you know, because we're publicly funded and people don't like it. [9:45] And this becomes a real challenge in tense political times, like your midterms are maybe going to be, [9:51] when the information system is so polluted at times it's difficult to know what's real and what isn't. [9:57] It's really hard for reporters, too, because if you come out and say the president of the United States is lying, [10:03] then immediately you get branded as a liberal. [10:05] I didn't know it was a liberal to say that somebody is lying or telling the truth or that the facts don't, you know, [10:10] don't support what that person is saying. So, yeah, you're right. [10:14] And I think for reporters in general, I mean, there was funny because Trump said something about Scott Pelley, [10:18] where he was talking about how Pelley felt about his country, Pelley's courage and stuff like that. [10:23] And I don't want to make too much of journalists. I mean, God knows we don't need to do that. [10:27] But the people who do these jobs, by and large, I think I can say safely, do not hate America. [10:34] They could be making more money somewhere else. They could be, you know, taking less flack somewhere else. [10:39] They're doing this because they love journalism and hopefully they love truth. [10:43] They love the pursuit of that. Like that's a calling for them. [10:46] And, you know, to me, creating an environment where people like that are constantly hounded [10:52] by the president of the United States is just berserk. [10:56] Yeah, we saw that with Caitlin Collins in the Oval Office, the old classic, I've never seen you smile, you know, which is what it is. [11:06] But the criticism of Pelley and his patriotism when, you know, he made this point that he's never put on the uniform, [11:13] he's never served, but he's been in Kuwait, he's been in Iraq, he's worked in war zones covering the U.S. wars, [11:18] he's been shot at, been under fire, like people like Bob Simon, you know, one of his predecessors at CBS. [11:26] And I don't know if he's a perfect journalist or not, but I don't think he was a coward who didn't care about his country. [11:32] He made the point that democracy doesn't exist without journalism. [11:35] And this is kind of the tension point right now. [11:38] Absolutely. And again, that's part of Trump's broader critique. [11:41] You know, you are not telling the truth and you're un-American, frankly, because you don't support me [11:47] and you don't repeat what I say on your air or in your newspaper. [11:50] So just as a final point, Brian Curtis, like as we look to the midterms coming up later this year [11:55] and we look at sort of the fight on the press and the concentration and the ownership shifts [11:59] and the transitions and the changing cast of characters, what are your thoughts on how the whole midterm election race [12:11] and campaigns, how that is going to go for your country? [12:13] We're watching it very closely up here as we try to get our economy back to normal and get trade back. [12:18] But there are so many warning signs, it seems, all the time. [12:23] Yeah, I'm just imagining a zombie lurching forward or, you know, somebody at the end of a marathon [12:28] where they're completely out of gas, staggering toward the finish line. [12:31] And that's what America seems to me. [12:33] And again, you know, we've been through this before as a country. [12:38] We've been through just about every cycle since Donald Trump has been president. [12:41] How it will turn out, I think, in large part, will be sort of, you know, tied to which party wins power, right? [12:51] And in what way they win power. [12:53] Again, there's so many things to exploit here. [12:55] You know, part of what Donald Trump's talking about with California and L.A. that you're talking about [12:58] is just the fact that we have male voting here. [13:01] And it just takes longer because more people can vote, right? [13:04] So I think what you're going to see over the next couple of months is all kinds of, you know, ways that our system is exploited, [13:11] that things that are set up to help people participate in the system are criticized. [13:14] And you're going to see Donald Trump, you know, whacking everybody over the head in the process. [13:19] Every thread of the social fabric keeps getting tested. [13:22] You know, we'll see if it can hold. [13:24] Brian Curtis, editor-in-large at The Ringer, co-host of the Press Box podcast, one that's in rotation on my phone. [13:30] It's good to see you, sir. Thanks so much for joining us today. [13:33] Thanks for having me, David.