Top Fascism Expert Just GAVE a DIRE Midterm Warning... — PoliticsGirl

[0:00] Their conception of freedom is, they get to be free only when no one can regulate them, [0:07] no one can control them. They get all power, all access, and all the rest of us go and die. [0:25] And welcome to the Politics Girl podcast. I'm your host, Leigh McGowan. Let's get into it. [0:29] I've wanted to have today's guest on the show for a long time. Jason Stanley is the American [0:33] philosopher, previously a tenured professor at Yale, who is now the Bissell Head Chair [0:38] in American Studies at the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy at the University [0:43] of Toronto. He is also the author of seven books, including How Fascism Works, Erasing History, [0:49] How Propaganda Works, and The Politics of Language. Jason left the country with other Yale academics, [0:54] including Timothy Snyder and Marcy Shore, for the University of Toronto in April of 2025. [0:59] At the time, Jason said he was leaving America as a direct response to the political climate [1:04] under the Trump administration, government pressure on higher education, and America's [1:08] descent into authoritarianism. So as we sit here today on the precipice of what could be [1:13] our very last election, I wanted to speak to Jason to see what he thinks those of us who [1:18] haven't left America should be doing right now. So without further ado, please welcome my guest, [1:23] political philosopher, prolific author, and leading scholar on the topic of fascism, Jason Stanley. [1:29] Thank you. It's an honor to be in conversation with you. The work you've been doing [1:33] over these years has just been crucial to democracy. So thank you. [1:38] That means a lot coming from you, truly. And I'm very, very grateful that you joined us today. [1:43] I know you've been traveling and you just got home. So I really appreciate you taking the time to talk [1:47] to us. Now, as I understand it, you are back where you live now, which is my hometown of Toronto. [1:53] And I have to say, when I watched you and your family and Timothy Snyder and his family all leave [1:58] Yale to pick up and move to Canada, it alarmed me, right? Because you called America at the time [2:04] a scary place. And you said that it's your study and knowledge of fascism that caused you to leave [2:10] America. So as you watch what's happening here right now, with only two plus weeks to go leading [2:16] up to our elections that could, if we do this wrong, very well be our last. What do you have to say to [2:22] us down here? Well, first of all, this is a situation that is winnable for democracy. We know [2:31] that Trump and the machine behind him, which will be there well after Trump, including a Supreme Court [2:38] that is beholden to billionaire tech billionaires and oligarchs. We know that's going to be in place. [2:44] But here's the thing. These guys are incompetent. So that's a problem with fascism generally. [2:51] As Hannah Arendt pointed out decades ago, fascist leaders replace competence by loyalty. The only [2:59] thing they care about is loyalty. This is a guy who has New York City real estate investor moguls doing [3:08] his entire foreign policy. I mean, really, they're not doing the foreign policy of the United States. [3:13] They're doing self-enrichment and enrichment of the Trump family. His son-in-law is one of the [3:22] people doing this. But these people are incompetent. And so you can beat them. You can beat them as long [3:29] as they lose by 20 points. We know they're going to try to steal the election. We know they will do [3:35] everything to try to steal the election. They're not trying to win more votes. They're not trying to [3:41] advertise themselves to independents. Trump has not for a second tried to extend his popularity. [3:51] He was elected as someone who would try to stay in power. So the entire time he has ruled with the view [3:58] that it's irrelevant what elections do. He was elected after having tried to stay in power. So [4:05] he's going to try to stay in power. But that he's going to try to do that doesn't mean that he's going [4:11] to succeed. Because, say it with me, they're incompetent. So everyone has to show up to vote. [4:20] And then you're going to have to find a group near you that will be involved in nonviolent political [4:28] protests when they try to stay in power after they lose by the landslide that they're going to lose [4:36] by. But that is what is going to happen. They're going to try every little trick. And I don't think [4:44] that they're going to succeed. Yeah, we had Leah Greenberg on the show last week, who's one of the [4:49] co-founders of Indivisible. And she was talking about the October 17th No Kings rally. And she was [4:54] like, it's less about saying we're unhappy with this wannabe king, and more about us realizing how [4:59] fast we can mobilize, because we're probably going to have to do it after the election, that we anticipate [5:04] that not only will he do everything up to the election, along with his enablers and party, but after [5:09] the election to try and overturn the results that we all see coming. And the thing is, is that in a regular [5:15] election year, in a regular midterm year, if one party had the presidency and the House and the [5:20] Senate, typically, it would switch anyway. And what we're saying is, not only will it switch, but [5:26] everyone is also miserable, and we're doing worse, and we're at war, and our economy is terrible. So yes, [5:33] of course, it should go to the Democrats, even if it wasn't a wannabe dictator at the helm. And yet, [5:38] this is not what the people in power are going to allow, because once they are out of power, [5:44] they are in actual trouble. Yes. I mean, it's not, you know, it's not even a dictator, as you talk [5:50] about regularly. We've got a global elite, tech billionaire elite, who are doing this entire show [5:58] of masking themselves behind white supremacists and nationalists. So there is, in fact, a global elite [6:07] that is trying to take down the United States. And, but they're doing so by, you know, they own the [6:15] president, they're working together with the president, the whole structure, we're seeing the [6:19] Supreme Court, they own the Supreme Court, and they're trying to take down democracy for the [6:25] billionaires. So that's, that's the situation. It's not just a dictator. It's, you know, it's a long term [6:31] struggle. It's going to be a struggle against this global, the tech billionaires and these forces [6:37] that are trying to destroy each nation in this clever way by getting, telling you, oh, it's the [6:44] trans women who are stealing, who are destroying the nation. Oh, it's the immigrants. All 10 trans [6:48] athletes. They're really out to get us. Yeah. No, I think it's funny that you and I are smiling during [6:54] this because it really is bananas, what we're watching. And we're watching these tech billionaires [6:58] who are literally getting government contracts and becoming even richer than buying more politicians. [7:03] It's like this kind of snake eating its own tail where the rest of us are on the outside [7:07] and they get more and more power and then more and more influence. And like you said, I do not think [7:13] that they care about democracy. They're clearly trying to split up the world into essentially feudal [7:19] zones where corporations or their corporations or their technology runs each, you know, group and the [7:25] rest of us are sort of, uh, I have to, I have to disagree with you. They're pretty strong. [7:29] Oh, tell me, please. I think they do. They do care about democracy. They want to destroy democracy. [7:36] Oh, okay. Yeah. So I think they care very deeply. I think they're really, as Peter Thiel has made [7:42] vivid, you know, democracy is the enemy of freedom. They want for their conception of freedom is they get [7:48] to be free only when no one can regulate them. No one can control them. They get all power, [7:56] all access, and all the rest of us go and die. So they care very deeply about democracy. Their aim [8:04] is to destroy democracy. They have the Supreme Court on their side. Uh, but the good thing is you have a [8:10] vote. It's, you know, the United, it's unlike India where the, where the, where the federal government [8:15] has control over the election apparatus and they've been able to essentially delete over a hundred [8:21] million voters from their voter registration rolls. You can't do that in America. The SAVE Act did not [8:26] pass. You can't do that yet. Well, that's why we're having this election. This, that's why this [8:31] election is so existentially important. Uh, so, you know, we've just seen, we just got the news that [8:38] Elon Musk has spent, you know, between 250 million and, and 260 million on this election for [8:45] to support, you know, the candidates that are pushing the billionaire agenda. The Republicans are [8:51] going to continue to deliver federal contracts to the billionaires, uh, deregulation. They're going to [8:57] continue to push, you know, the, the, the foreign policy of the United States is entirely there to enrich, uh, [9:05] the billionaires to, to, to cut down on regulation. The reason that they're pushing Bolsonaro in Brazil, the [9:13] reason that they're pushing the far right in Europe is they want to make sure that Europe and Latin [9:18] America do not regulate social media companies. So, you know, that, that, the, the foreign policy of [9:25] the United States is there to advance the class interests of billionaires. This is the election we [9:32] have to challenge, uh, the global billionaire class. I, you know, and, and I, I do believe it's going to be, [9:38] I believe it's going to be successful. I believe Americans are going to have a mass political [9:44] movement that is not going to let them do the tricks that they're planning. Uh, and they don't [9:49] know exactly the route that they're going to take. You know, they, they've got a bunch of different [9:54] things. They might, they're going to declare a national emergency, a fake national emergency of [9:59] some kind. It's going to be some, you know, invented thing. They've been trying to do that, [10:05] you know, uh, several times with different things that haven't worked. Uh, so they'll do that. They'll [10:11] try to not seat people, uh, but people just have to be patient and right now immediately organize [10:19] in groups for nonviolent resistance. We know the coup has been happening a long time. I mean, [10:26] the mid decade gerrymandering, that was part of the coup. Uh, you know, we, we have, we have, [10:34] you know, the, the, the raiding Ilhan Omar's, uh, uh, home today, which is something that would be, [10:40] is sort of like just a straight, you know, dictatorship authoritarian move. Uh, you know, [10:48] that's part of the coup. This is all part of a rolling coup. So, uh, but you know, the good thing [10:55] is they're incompetent. Yes. I was going to say, thank God they're incompetent. I feel like often [11:00] we dodged the biggest bullet by having the biggest idiots be in charge because really you've never [11:05] seen, it's like a French farce. Like they may as well be going in and out of doors and turning on [11:10] and off door. Like they really are foolish, foolish people. But I was looking at your 2018 book, [11:15] how fascism works, the politics of us and them. And then your 2024 book, Erasing History, [11:21] how fascists rewrite the past to control the future. And I think that it was fascinating because [11:25] you don't just talk about what fascism is, which I think we should remind people of because I think [11:30] they get confused by terms because we bandied them about so much these days, but also that [11:34] fascism itself is used to acquire and consolidate power, which is what we're seeing right now in [11:41] America. And would you, would you like to define fascism, uh, indicators for people right now, [11:46] just in case they're feeling confused because they keep, you know, they don't know if it's socialist [11:50] or communist or Marxist or, so why don't we just give them a little bit of fascist so they know [11:54] what they're looking for? Right. So fascism is a, uh, a structure that says the nation is an [12:02] existential peril. It defines the nation narrowly in terms of, uh, uh, of an ethnic group and a set [12:10] of traditions like the nuclear family. Uh, it, it says the nation is under existential threat from [12:16] immigrants who seek to destroy the character of the nation. It says the civilization is under [12:22] existential threat from immigrants. It says that liberals are at fault for spreading tolerance and [12:28] hence destroying the nation. Uh, the nation has to rebuild itself. Uh, so women should be having [12:35] babies. They should be having, there should be traditional gender roles because we need to [12:40] rebuild the ethnic stock of the nation. One of its central enemies is a sort of pretend communism. [12:47] It says, you know, sometimes fascism is defined as the violent defense of public, of private property. [12:53] So it's when the wealthy elite, they say, uh, the threat that is actually to them, the billionaires, [13:00] they call that communism. And they tell you, Oh, look, they're going to make billionaires pay more [13:04] taxes. That's communism. And they make it, they try to make it personal. They try to say, okay, [13:09] they're going after your family. They're going after your home. They're going after your wealth. [13:15] When really they tar with this brush of communism, people who are, you know, trying to impose a [13:21] billionaire tax, you know? So they're trying to say, you know, they're trying to raise fear of [13:26] immigrants, socialism, liberals, feminists. Uh, they're trying to say that this is, there's this [13:34] existential crisis that is coming for your property, uh, your family, uh, your ethnicity. Uh, [13:42] it's going to replace you. It's going to replace your civilization. It's going to take your private [13:47] property, but really the, the, what they're defending are the interests of the billionaire [13:53] class. Fascism typically, it only succeeds when it can marshal both the social conservatives and the, [14:01] and the wealthy elite. It says to both of them and the religious conservatives, we're going to take [14:07] care of this existential threat to you of, you know, uh, LGBTQ fellow citizens. And it says to [14:15] the, or, or women's equality or abortion. And it says to the wealthy elite, we're going to take care [14:22] of regulation. We're going to make sure you get state contracts and we're going to use violence to do [14:29] this. And it presents democracy. Fascism presents democracy as the existential threat. That's what you [14:36] need to look for is when something is defending democracy, it's defending values like tolerance [14:42] and equality and sort of shared concern for fellow citizens. When it, when tolerance is an existential [14:49] threat to the nation, when, you know, uh, sharing wealth of billionaires is represented as communism [14:57] and an existential threat to the nation, you know what you're dealing with. Yeah. Okay. I would also say [15:04] based on your own writing, cause I'm taking this from you, that it's also a movement driven by the [15:10] cult of a charismatic personality. And I think people can see that in our case. I think it's very [15:14] clear. I think this concept that you're talking about that like all major fascists that we think [15:19] of Mussolini, Hitler, whatever, it also relies heavily on this mythic past when we were great and [15:26] who took it from us. Right? Like the make America great again movement in general is like, [15:31] there was a time where everything was great. And then these people took it. So we need to get rid [15:35] of these people because they ruined it for us. The white picket fence, uh, lifestyle, the white [15:40] family, the 2.5 children, the woman in the home, that's when we were great. And you're like, that's [15:45] when the taxes were at 75%. You know what I mean? But like, they don't want to talk about that. [15:48] Um, but I also think the mythic past is chapter one of how fascism works, because that's how you [15:55] create, you create this nostalgia. The whole structure is a way of looking away from the [16:02] people who are really destroying your lives to direct attention away from the billionaires, [16:08] the wealthy elite. So the mythic past is like, you know why you're anxious? You know why you're [16:13] fearful? Because you don't get respect anymore just for having your culture, your family, your [16:19] identity. And who's responsible for that? The feminists, the immigrants, the liberals, the [16:25] intellectuals. Yeah. I think blame is very helpful to people because not, I, I remember [16:30] talking to my father, who's obviously Canadian when he was elected the first time and he was [16:34] like, why would people fall for this? And I was like, in many ways, he gives them somewhere [16:38] to hang their hat that says, it's not your fault. If you don't have what you wanted to [16:43] have, it's not your fault. And people want to think it's not their fault. They want to think [16:47] that they don't need to change at all, that clearly the world changed around them and it wasn't [16:51] their fault. And this person is going to bring it back, even if they never had it in the first [16:55] place, which I find really interesting. Note that that, that, that appeal is to white [17:00] people because he is saying to black people, you know, there's no structural racism, you [17:07] know, it is your fault. So he said. Stop complaining. That didn't really happen. Let's [17:14] stop reading the books about it as well. It's a message directed specifically to white [17:19] Americans. Yeah, I will say, I think it's also in your writing, the concept of the normalization [17:25] of the intolerable, you know, how fascist sort of gradually shifts public discourse so that [17:32] something that would have been previously considered completely unacceptable to us or fringe [17:37] is suddenly mainstream in a political conversation. Like I'm thinking this week, we're now talking [17:43] about live streaming and execution, right? The government is going to broadcast their killing [17:48] of someone. And I was listening to Ruth Ben-Ghiott, who is also a historian and expert in this [17:52] kind of fascist world. And she was like, the thing is, is that a planned execution is an [17:57] escalation, right? It's an attempt to normalize extreme violence, to ritualize violence, to [18:03] militarize a country and make violence in many ways entertaining so that when the government [18:08] starts committing violence or asking you to commit violence, you're going to be more ready [18:12] for it. What do you think about that? [18:14] So my friends at Wild Grain are having their biggest sale of the year, and they're calling it [18:19] carbs giving, which I have to say made me laugh. The world might be wild right now, but we're still [18:24] going into cozy season where the temperature is cool, but our ovens are warm. And this is the [18:28] perfect time for us to be enjoying fresh baked bread. Quite frankly, I think I need carbs now more [18:33] than ever. 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They are delivering to happy customers on both sides of the country. [21:27] When the government starts committing violence or asking you to commit violence, you're going to be more ready [21:33] for it. What do you think about that? Well, normalization is key here. I mean, recall J.D. Vance said [21:39] recently, if Watergate happened now, it would be a 12-hour news story. So, you know, that's why they're [21:48] moving on all cylinders at all times. And Ruth White Treasure is, she's absolutely right. We need to pay [21:56] attention to these moments that you might view as symbolic, but you can't tear apart the symbolic [22:04] from non-symbolic. The symbolic is meant to justify various practices, right? Like, why do you take down [22:14] monuments? Why, when the Soviet Union fell, did they take down all the monuments to Stalin, etc.? Well, because, [22:21] you know, you don't need symbols behind that system anymore, because the system has fallen. Similarly, that's why [22:28] we want to take down monuments to Confederates, because the system of Jim Crow is supposed to be gone. That's putting [22:37] them back up is telling the world the system of Jim Crow is returning. So what does the symbol of an [22:45] execution do? And I think Ruth Ben-Ghiott also nails this as well. What is the symbol supposed to [22:52] legitimate? Well, the symbol is supposed to legitimate live visual practices of defending the [23:01] state violently in the future. Now, of course, this was a terrible terrorist attack, but they're sort of taking it out of [23:10] that context, and giving it to people as a kind of symbol that's supposed to then justify the state doing these [23:20] kind of open, violent acts. You know, it's trying to intimidate, really. It's trying to say the state's violent [23:29] power is going to be on display. Yeah. A lot of experts have been saying when a government wants you to watch [23:36] it kill someone, they're not doing it for the condemned person. They're doing it for the people [23:40] watching, right? They're putting it in context. They're saying, like, here's what our power is. [23:45] Here's what we can do. And if you put that in the context of the same week Donald Trump was like, [23:49] yeah, go ahead, take out Los Angeles, take out San Diego, you start to be like, what are they trying [23:54] to tell us? Well, they're also trying to roll back the enlightenment. I mean, public executions are [24:00] like notoriously savage elements of a bygone era. And, you know, like when they say we're going to make [24:09] America great again, or we're going to turn back the clock, you know, it's always interesting how far [24:14] back they want to go. I mean, I think, you know, they, we can, we can talk about the kind of [24:20] enlightenment values that led to the, eventually to the end of public executions. The idea that this [24:26] was, and to the end of capital punishment, really, that this was a sort of savage thing that public [24:31] executions were part of a culture that, you know, we repudiate as have, once we accept these norms of [24:42] what a civilized society is supposed to be about, it's supposed to be about equality and tolerance [24:47] and, you know, keeping us safe. But this doesn't keep anyone safe. This is a spectacle. This is not [24:54] about keeping people safe. This is about some kind of demonstration of the violence of the state. [25:01] And this is what they're asking us. They're asking us to repudiate all the values that sort of really [25:08] were inculcated after World War II, that we're supposed to, you know, look for a better world. [25:15] No, we're supposed to, it's a violent competition between nations for superiority. And if you, you [25:23] know, if you lose, you know, you get killed. It's, it's like Stephen Miller said this very explicitly. [25:28] He said, it's the rule, you know, the, the stronger, you know, get to dominate the weaker. This is the [25:34] culture that they want. And this is part of that culture. And then you get Stephen, Steve Bannon [25:39] being like, yep, history's written by the winners. So just wait and see. And we'll come out as the, [25:43] we'll come out on top at the end of it, because we'll have written the stories as well. But I would [25:47] say going back to what you said about the strategic alliances, the alliances between [25:51] the authoritarian wannabes or the authoritarian leaders and business elites, people that might not [25:57] actually fancy themselves fascists, but they're perfectly happy to look the other way while [26:02] democracy's destroyed in exchange for financial benefits, in exchange for more deregulation, [26:08] for the destruction of labor unions, for higher corporate profits. Like they're fine if democracy [26:13] gets ruined, as long as they're still getting theirs. And then of course, I, you know, looking [26:17] at your most recent work, it's all about how these autocratic regimes also target education. [26:22] Absolutely. You, you have to, uh, the purpose of education is just to glorify the nation. [26:29] Uh, Hitler says, you know, the purpose of science is just to glorify the nation. [26:33] This is right. What's coming out of the Trump, uh, uh, education department. They're asking [26:39] universities to post statements about how their, their universities are going to help American [26:45] security interests. Uh, you know, actually that's not the purpose of education in a democracy. [26:51] The purpose of education in a democracy is to create democratic citizens who know, and what [26:59] is a democratic education? It's learning about each other. It's learning about your fellow [27:03] citizens, learning about their fellow perspective, about their perspectives. So you can take their [27:08] perspective into account in your own voting decisions. A fascist education system tries to give [27:16] you just one perspective. So you're scared of other perspectives. They're a threat so they can keep [27:22] you in constant fear. Uh, and remember the billionaire class, what's their interest in this? Their interest [27:28] in this is that you don't blame them for your problems. Like that's, that's what they get out of. [27:33] They want you to be blaming somebody else, immigrants, trans people, uh, black Americans, anyone, but [27:41] them, uh, for what's, uh, for the loss of your jobs, for your, uh, for your economic insecurity. Uh, so [27:48] they want an education system that does this too. This creates, uh, and it links, basically it's, it goes [27:54] back to my two books fit together because erasing history, which is about fascist education feeds into [28:01] the mythic past. Like if your education system is all about how your country is the greatest in history, [28:09] how there's just been these great men who made your country the greatest in history. Then when [28:14] you look around your country and it looks pretty shabby, you're going to be really outraged. Like [28:18] who did this, you know, who's, and, and then you're gonna be mad at people criticizing your country. And, [28:24] you know, you're gonna be think, okay, you know, if you have problems, well, you live in the greatest [28:29] country that's ever, that's ever existed. I mean, this government is openly pushing patriotic [28:35] education. Patriotic education has no role to play in a democracy, a democratic education, [28:43] and neither, you know, the center of a democracy is an education system where we meet each other [28:49] and we learn about each other. And we learn about the past of our country, in particular, [28:54] the bad things that it did so we can make a better country. They are trying to destroy democratic [29:01] education to make us feel like, you know, the country was always great and the people complaining [29:07] about it are really, and by extension them, because they are supposedly the country, are really trying [29:13] to just dare the real threats to the nation. So you make a pliable country when you can create this [29:21] patriotic education system and you can wall off from people different perspectives. The history of the [29:27] labor movement, the history of women's rights, the history of civil rights. So you can then, [29:34] you can then just create these critiques. You can represent these critiques as, you know, threats [29:40] to the nation. And that's why we're seeing such a focus on our education system today, and also like [29:47] a complete attack on the very idea of a democratic education. Yeah. Well, also, I would say, you know, [29:54] like authoritarians in general throughout history, they always attack schools, universities, higher [29:59] education, quite frankly, the arts, any place that critical thinking happens because, you know, free [30:05] thought, open-minded, free thinking ideas, that's all a threat to their power. So if you attack the people [30:10] doing those things, if you can create a culture where dissent is punished, then you can kind of silence [30:18] everybody. And then you get, you get your way far more often. And all over the world, we see it's [30:23] university students who lead protests for democracy. Right. You know, and unfortunately, I have to [30:30] say the Biden administration really laid the path work here by going after the anti-war demonstrations [30:36] on university campuses. Yeah, that was a mistake. You know, people in the New York, [30:41] you know, New York Times op-ed writers are saying things like, [30:45] why aren't the students protesting? The students aren't protesting because you attacked them for [30:51] protesting for the last decade. And you destroyed their careers. You made them unhireable. And now [30:57] you're asking why they're not protesting. Look at India, where the students are on the streets being [31:02] attacked right now in Delhi by the authoritarian government. The student movement is pushing [31:08] for against the attack on democracy. Look at Bangladesh, look at Korea. Students are regularly [31:17] the bulwark of democracy. And we had basically a systematic attack on student protests over the last [31:25] decade, thereby defanging that. And yes, you know, as you say, schools and universities, young people, [31:32] students are the leaders. The young people. One of the reasons I love being a professor is because [31:38] young people tend to be right. And I'm reminded of that every day in my classes. They have a kind of [31:46] eye on what social injustice is. [31:48] Yeah. They're old enough to be aware and still young enough to have sort of like aspirations. [31:56] And you've said that you left the states and teaching in the states because [32:00] of what the federal government was going to do to higher education, the cuts in funding, [32:04] the collapse of the resistance at the university level, the fact that higher education's instinct [32:09] by nature because of funding is just to keep their head down to avoid being targeted [32:14] rather than fighting back. And I think a lot of us watched the huge institutions, [32:18] the Harvards and the Yales and the Dartmouth and everything. And we were like, how come they're not [32:22] fighting back? And we felt the same way about the major law firms and the major, you know, [32:26] publications, the major media outlets. And you're like, if all of you were fighting back, [32:30] they'd have no power. But all of you putting your heads down and being like, don't look at me [32:34] is the problem because then we don't actually make the change that we need to. And they get to, [32:39] you know, dig their claws in to our democracy even more, I feel like. [32:44] Yes. The institutions have not done a stellar job. It was after Colombia kind of folded that I [32:51] made the decision to go. It wasn't because I sort of gave up on the United States. It's because I [32:56] I wanted to send a warning signal. I felt like it was like my obligation to say, this is like really [33:05] serious and I will take this. I will leave my country to send this message. It was a political [33:11] move. I felt also, you know, Canada, the rule of law is very safe. I have two children. So I felt like, [33:19] you know, right now there's a global fascist wave crashing across the entire world. And if you, [33:25] you know, Canada is not safe from it, but it's, you know, Canada is, Toronto is extremely diverse. [33:34] Like someone at a recent talk of mine at a Canadian university at Queens was like, [33:39] who would be us and who would be them in Canada if you were going to do fascism? [33:45] So there's a safety in that. The diversity is a safety from fascism. [33:50] Yeah. Yeah. In many ways, Canada has done multicultural pluralism better than the States. [33:55] And maybe it's because of our lack of, and I say our, because it's my home country. [33:59] Um, we don't have the same history of racism between the black community and the white community [34:04] in Canada that we do in the States. There's obviously a massive problem with the native [34:08] population and, um, everyone that came after them. But, uh, but I feel like having grown up in Canada, [34:15] I didn't have that same us and them mentality that you often learn in the States. I, in the spring, [34:21] actually, you were having a conversation with, uh, Nicole Hannah Jones, uh, for Penn America, [34:26] where you said, if we're going to free ourselves from fascism, it's important that we reexamine [34:31] our past. And I think our past is so essential. And it's the reason that Donald Trump is focusing [34:36] on doing things like you said, requiring patriotic education in public schools or stripping any sort [34:41] of unflattering history from our parks and museums, scrubbing government websites of historical or [34:47] scientific data that doesn't, you know, fit their preferred narrative. I think they're currently [34:52] considering renaming like an aircraft carrier after Donald Trump, instead of like a very patriotic [34:57] and heroic black soldier. Like they're really trying to change history in a way. And when you [35:02] wrote a racing history, I feel like you were trying to tell the readers that they needed to defend [35:06] themselves, that their educational institutions needed to defend themselves, that we needed to [35:11] defend ourselves against leaders like Trump or any sort of authoritarian wherever we were in the world [35:16] that would like attack our historical memory in order to rewrite the future. And we have to know [35:23] our past so that it becomes harder to erase our future and change our future. Is that still something [35:29] you're seeing right now? The changing of what we know to be able to change what we do? Everything is [35:36] modernized these days, including our skincare. So if you're ready to take your skincare routine to the [35:41] next level, then I'm going to recommend iRestore's new Laser Face Mask Pro because it is seriously [35:48] impressive. The Laser Face Mask Pro is iRestore's most advanced at home light therapy device. 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Experience pro-grade skin [37:29] therapy within the comfort of your own home with the Laser Face Mask Pro. [37:34] We do most of our shopping online these days, but if we shop for clothes and home goods and [37:39] skincare online, why not blinds? Honestly, I've shopped for blinds in a store where I think they [37:43] look great and then I bring them home and they look absolutely terrible or they're the wrong size or the [37:47] color is wrong. But there's a better way to buy blinds, shades, shutters, and drapery. And it's called [37:52] 3-Day Blinds. 3-Day Blinds are the leading manufacturer of high quality custom window [37:56] treatments in the United States. 3-Day Blinds have local, professionally trained design consultants [38:01] who have an average of 10 plus years of experience who will come to your home and provide the guidance [38:06] and right blinds for you. Just set up an appointment and you will get a free, no obligation quote the [38:11] same day. 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Head to 3dayblinds.com slash politicsgirl for their [38:56] buy one, get one 50% off deal on custom blinds, shades, shutters and drapery. For a free, [39:01] no charge, no obligation consultation, just head to 3dayblinds.com slash politicsgirl. [39:07] One last time, that's buy one, get one 50% off when you head to the number 3dayblinds.com slash [39:16] politicsgirl. So Lachlan kept our noble suitcase when he moved to New York. It's his favorite one [39:22] because he likes the iPhone holder on the handle and the cup holder on the back. He likes being able [39:26] to plug in his tech directly to the bag and he thought it would be better traveling for him moving [39:30] forward. We took it with us on our trip this summer as well and I will say as much as I love my regular [39:35] luggage, the noble one just rolls so much better. It's just infinitely smoother. There's a reason [39:40] noble is rated the number one luggage on Trustpilot. 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This is a company that stands behind what they've made. [40:29] So upgrade to luggage that looks better and lasts longer so you can travel smarter. Head to [40:34] nobletravel.com for up to 46% off your entire order. That's n-o-b-l-travel.com for up to 46% off. [40:43] And after you purchase, they're going to ask where you heard about them. Please support the show and [40:48] tell them that we sent you. Is that still something you're seeing right now? The changing of what we know [40:54] to be able to change what we do? Absolutely. First of all, [40:58] they're eliminating data, scientific data. They're erasing whole perspectives, right? They're erasing [41:04] from us our own understanding of what's happening to the environment, right? They're erasing all sorts [41:12] of things about disparities between different groups, poor and rich, between racial groups, women and men. [41:21] They're just erasing large swaths of knowledge. So they're erasing, they're attacking job statistics. [41:28] They're trying to erase as much information as they can from the public record. So then they can say, [41:38] as authoritarianism does, that what they say is the truth. So universities are also repositories for [41:46] the truth. They're searches for knowledge. But they're asking universities to serve in the national [41:52] security interest of the United States. That is not a mission that is the same as the search for [41:59] knowledge. The United States has the greatest universities in the world because they are, [42:06] you know, it's the thing we do that is the greatest in the world because they search for knowledge. [42:11] universities that search to make their countries great, that are supposed to, like, teach to make [42:16] students patriotic, that are just supposed to create, you know, national security things for the [42:22] state. Those are not going to be great universities. Those are just going to be, those aren't really [42:28] universities, universities at all. So we're seeing, we're seeing an erasure of perspectives. They're of [42:35] course, attacking black history, because black history, as you pointed out, is so foundational to what America [42:44] is. It reminds us repeatedly that of, you know, what we have to overcome. They attack the concept of [42:54] structural racism, masking the fact that where we've been for decades, the largest incarcerator of our own [43:01] population in the world. How do you even think that we're a free country when we've incarcerated [43:06] more of our population than any other country in the world? Now we've slipped to fourth. [43:11] But, but still, you know, the- Still not good. [43:15] Right. And then, you know, every American city has a massively segregated black neighborhood that is [43:24] filled with poverty and homelessness due to- Done deliberately by, by institutions in our country. [43:30] By decades and decades of law. Now that's illegal to teach. Note, by the way, that this whole thing, [43:37] this whole attack on education, this whole attack on universities, this whole attack on the press, [43:43] was done in the name of free speech. So we really have to remember that it was the people who, [43:50] starting in 2015 and 2016, started saying, oh, universities are threatening free speech. [43:56] That became the Trump movement. That is, you know, Musk, et cetera. They're supposedly, you know, like, [44:03] but then they're banning speech on campus. They're transforming a free speech environment [44:09] into patriotic education. Patriotic education is the banning of free speech. It's the banning of free [44:16] thought. They're basically trying to turn, destroy the history. They're trying to transform history into, [44:24] as W.E.B. Du Bois says, describes it, into propaganda. You know, the goal of a democracy, [44:29] of a democratic culture, is to make the country ever better for everyone, ever more equal, ever less [44:36] oppressive for, for its citizens. That's the goal of a democracy. If you don't know your history, [44:44] if you don't know the perspectives of the different groups, that's not a goal you can achieve. [44:48] Yeah. I mean, that's why you need to control the narrative, right? Because that's why the free [44:53] press was such a problem for this administration. That's why it's such a big deal that all the social [44:58] media sites are owned by Trump supporters and enablers, why it matters that newspapers and TV [45:04] networks and local broadcasters have been purchased by these right-wing cronies, right? It matters why the [45:10] head of the FCC is acting like a political hitman for shows that criticize the president, [45:15] why Colbert is gone, why 60 Minutes has been neutered, why CBS and CNN had to be acquired. [45:20] Yeah. Brendan Carr was turned out to be a very sophisticated operator. In Project 2025, [45:27] he writes the FCC section and he says he's going to make, make sure that the media operates in the [45:33] public interest. Now, basically, anytime anyone criticizes Trump, that is not in the public interest [45:40] because now the United States has personalist rule. What is in the public interest is just what's good [45:48] for Trump and what's good for the billionaires whose interests he represents. And so it's just [45:54] like maniacal because, you know, we can all agree that like it would be good to be in the public [46:00] interest. But, you know, making billionaires richer and richer is not necessarily in the public interest. [46:06] So, yeah, like any authoritarian government ever, they're purchasing the media. They're not just [46:11] purchasing the media here. They're attacking other governments who would seek to regulate that media. [46:18] You know, they're promoting Alternative Deutschland in Germany. They're attacking German [46:25] regulators or any European regulation that's seeking to put some kind of obstacles on Elon Musk's [46:34] acts because, of course, that is their propaganda outlet. He controls the algorithms. He controls [46:40] the information flow. So, you know, and they're doing it in the name of, quote unquote, free speech. But, [46:45] of course, when you're talking about media outlets that are privately owned and algorithms are controlled [46:53] and they control the flow on those structures, it's not free. It's basically you're listening to the [47:02] mouthpieces of the global elite who are seeking to destroy democracy. And they're seeking to destroy [47:09] democracy by promoting these nationalist parties, racist parties, who claim they're going to restore [47:15] free speech and everyone can say racist things again. Yeah. And I think we have to remember, as you [47:21] and I are talking, this is just after one of the huge data centers that had all the bot farms in Russia, [47:27] bot farms was just blown up and how much the algorithm has changed without that bot farm online. [47:34] And the first thing Elon said was that Ukraine had gone too far. And you're like, gone too far in what? [47:42] In stopping all the propaganda that we're drowning in? Yes, that would be, I'd like to see more. [47:47] I've been looking on social media. You know, I sort of stopped really. I post on Instagram, [47:53] but I don't really interact on social media because it's very clear to me that so much of it is bots and [47:59] you're kind of performing for bots. So I've been seeing before these elections, we get really intense [48:07] ways to get voters to stay home, particularly Democratic, the Democratic base. So you're going to get [48:15] people. You're going to, you know, I think, I think a lot of the, the attacks on, on El Saeed, [48:22] for instance, of trying to represent, to create divisions between pro-Palestinians and voting [48:29] blocs and, and black American voters. A lot of that was bot warfare that I noticed decreasing. It's, [48:37] there's just a lot of like, before the 2016 elections, the Russian bots were trying, the Russian [48:43] operators, they were, were, were trying to basically tamp down the Democratic base, get them not to vote, [48:51] the Hillary Clinton super predator thing. Like, and so you're going to see a lot of that effort. [48:56] That's why they don't want people doing the research into what's happening on these platforms. They [49:02] attack the, like disinformation rate researchers, because those researchers will tell you, you know, [49:09] there's going to be, uh, they'll tell, they'll explain to you what's happening on social media, [49:14] the way they're trying to control your outrage in order to get you, uh, very often before an American [49:22] election, if you're a Democratic voter, not to go to the polls. Yeah. To depress the votes because they [49:28] know they're in trouble if everyone comes out to vote. Listen, before you go, let me ask you, in that [49:33] same conversation you had with Nicole Hannah-Jones, she said to the audience, look, I want you guys to [49:38] leave this discussion scared to death because this is a dangerous time and I need you to understand [49:43] the stakes. And while I understand what she was doing there, I want the opposite from our conversation [49:49] today because we're just over two weeks out from this election. We are in an incredibly dangerous [49:54] time, but I don't want my audience or anyone who believes in the future of this nation to be scared [49:59] to death. I want them to be fired up. I want them to bring 10 friends to the election. I don't want them [50:05] staying home eating 10 pounds of ice cream, right? I want Americans refusing to seed this nation to [50:11] these sick monsters. So I don't want Americans scared to death. I want Trump and his people scared [50:18] to death. So before you go, what do you think that we should have in our minds as we go forward for [50:22] these next two weeks and then whatever happens beyond that? This is the most exciting time in recent [50:27] American history. We can absolutely bury these fascists. I mean, there is a wave coming against [50:37] them, the likes of which we haven't seen before in American politics. I would like people to stop [50:43] talking about the 2018 midterms, any other midterms, because this is not a midterms. This is not a normal [50:50] election. This is a time where you have to win by 70%. Everyone, Democrat, Republican, Independent, [50:59] has to just say, we can all agree the global elite is bad, whether you're right or left. The global elite [51:05] are not assistant professors making $60,000 a year, lecturers or journalists. The global elite are the [51:12] billionaires, and they're coming after all the democracies. And the United States can make a statement [51:19] in the world today. We can change world history with this election. It's in our grasp because [51:26] Americans across the aisle, across political divide, are starting to see it's the billionaires who are [51:35] trying to divide us so they can just grab all our money. And Donald Trump is their guy. And that is [51:42] just like he's just sending his son-in-law, his buddies to go get, you know, use U.S. foreign policy [51:50] to pad his wallet. We can just, and this is the time, we can actually reverse the global fascist [51:58] tie. This is not a Republican or a Democrat thing. This is a democracy thing. This is a human thing. [52:07] This is the most important time, perhaps, in American history. You know, this is one of the [52:13] most important times in world history. And victory, it's really invisible. So this is go time. [52:20] This is go time. Thank you, Jason. I really appreciate it so much. Tell people how they can [52:26] follow your work and follow what you're doing moving forward. [52:29] I'm on Instagram and Substack at Professor Jason Stanley. That's the best way. [52:36] Yeah, but they can also buy your books, right? They can buy those books. [52:39] Yes, right. [52:40] Absolutely. We need to be learning. [52:42] I wrote two books that are just meant to explain the structure of what we're seeing. [52:49] How Fascism Works, and my 2018 book, and Erasing History, How Fascists Rewrite the Past to Control the [52:57] Future, both written before Trump II, one written in 2018. But they're intended to make everything [53:06] very clear. They jibe a lot with your terrific work. And if you just need, like, explainer guides [53:15] to explain to people, like, why do they attack education? Why are they attacking schools? Or, [53:23] you know, why are they attacking immigrants or trans women? That's where you'll find very basic answers [53:32] to what's basically happening across the world today. [53:37] Happening across the world is exactly right. Thank you so much for coming today. Thank you so much [53:43] for joining me. I'm very, very grateful to finally talk to you. And your students in my hometown are very [53:48] lucky to have you. Oh, that's very kind. Thank you for your work. In these existential times, [53:54] work like yours, breaking down ideas, bringing the passion, that's what we need right now. [54:01] Yeah, I think it is what we need from everybody. So that was Jason Stanley reminding us that we can [54:08] beat these fascists. That this is not a midterm vote. This is an existential vote. That changing the [54:13] course of the world is in the American voters' grasp. This is about turnout for everybody who [54:19] thinks that the global elite of billionaires who want everything for themselves are bad. [54:24] It is up to us to kickstart the reversal of the global fascist tide. We know they're going to cheat. [54:30] We know they're going to try and steal it. But that doesn't mean they're going to succeed. [54:34] In fact, it is up to us to make sure they don't. I want to thank Jason for coming today and you for [54:39] caring enough about democracy to be here. Now go and get your vote in and then make sure everybody [54:44] else you know has done the same. Until next week, Peachy out. Before I go, I just want to remind [54:50] everyone that the new Politics Girl substack has been launched, where you will find a weekly newsletter [54:55] that comes out on Friday to give you insight on the top stories of the week, including a new graphic [55:00] novel version to make it more appealing to those who don't read newsletters so that everyone can go [55:05] into the weekend informed. A copy of this week's podcast will also be included and weekly action [55:10] items for what you can do to support free and fair elections and the rule of law. [55:14] There are only so many hours in the day and the news is never ending. And I am hoping what we're [55:19] building at substack will make it easier for people to stay informed while building a community that can [55:23] stand together during these incredibly uncertain times. If you are already a member of Politics Girl [55:28] Premium, then we will keep that going until the top of the year. But we really hope to transition [55:32] everyone over to substack for better service and more bang for your buck. Thank you to everyone for [55:37] checking this out and for all your continued support. I'm just trying to make a difference [55:42] in these really chaotic times. The Politics Girl podcast is written and performed by me, [55:47] Leigh McGowan, and produced and edited by Happy Warrior Entertainment. All rights reserved.