Thomas Massie says his ‘biggest crime’ was bipartisanship after primary loss: Full interview

[0:00] And joining me now is Republican Congressman Thomas Massey of Kentucky. [0:04] Congressman Massey, welcome back to Meet the Press. [0:09] Thanks, Kristen. [0:10] Thank you so much for being here. I do want to get to your race in just a moment. [0:14] But I have to start with that developing news on Iran. President Trump posting on Saturday [0:20] that an agreement with Iran has, quote, largely been negotiated. It's unclear what exactly has [0:28] been agreed to, whether any deal would directly address the issue of the nuclear program, [0:35] which, of course, is at the center of the war with Iran. So far, no final deal has been announced. [0:40] But, Congressman, would you support a short-term deal with Iran? [0:47] Well, I was the author of the first war powers resolution to get us out of Iran. [0:52] My constituents are hurting. Gas is almost $5 a gallon. Diesel is almost $6 a gallon. [0:58] And the farmers here in Kentucky can't afford the fertilizer to put on their field. [1:02] So, heck, yes, I would support it. We don't know what the terms of it are. [1:07] But if Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz are crashing out last night, I'd say it's probably a pretty good deal. [1:12] All right. Well, let's turn to the big news, the reason why you're here. [1:17] You did lose your bid for re-election this past Tuesday after serving seven terms in Congress. [1:24] Why do you think you lost this race, Congressman? [1:27] Well, listen, since the day I got to Washington, D.C., I've been doing this job like I thought people wanted you to do it. [1:36] I read the bills. I didn't give my voting card to the speaker. [1:40] I've never given it to a president. I don't even give my voting card to the Freedom Caucus. [1:44] I vote for people over party. And, you know, that means 10% of the time I vote against the party. [1:51] I've exposed a lot of things in Washington, D.C., the cronyism. [1:55] I would say, you know, and also bankrupting our country, whether it's Republicans or Democrats, [2:01] I point out how they're bankrupting our country and how these are all fake fights. [2:06] They love to divide us. [2:07] I think the biggest crime I committed against the swamp, Kristen, was showing the American people [2:13] that somebody on the right could join somebody on the left and get something done, [2:18] which is releasing the Epstein files that everybody knew needed to be done. [2:23] That's probably the only bill that's passed Washington, D.C. in the last 10 years [2:27] that lobbyists haven't written. [2:29] It was written by me and Ro Khanna, and we used the pressure of the American people [2:34] to cross the aisle and get things done. [2:36] That's when they decided I had to be taken out, that I was becoming effective. [2:42] So they wanted to eliminate me. [2:43] And, by the way, they couldn't buy my vote in 14 years, so they bought this seat. [2:48] This was the most expensive race in congressional primary history. [2:52] And at the end of this race, we were spending more per day, my side and the opposing side. [2:57] We were spending more per day than most entire congressional races are spent for the entire cycle. [3:04] Wow. It's just extraordinary to put it into that context. [3:08] You referenced the Epstein files, the fact that you and Congressman Khanna, [3:12] who I'll be speaking to next, pushed to have those files released. [3:15] You also broke with President Trump on other key issues, [3:19] voting against the so-called big, beautiful bill. [3:21] You're opposed to the Iran war, as you just stated. [3:24] Congressman Massey, was it all worth it? [3:30] It was absolutely worth it for me. [3:33] Now, I don't think it's going to be worth it for the party. [3:36] Look, the left, some people on the left have Trump derangement syndrome. [3:40] They call it TDS. [3:41] But there's a growing number of people on the right who have a form of TDS [3:44] called Trump disappointment syndrome. [3:46] And I think what's going to happen to the party this fall [3:50] is they've disenfranchised a large portion of that constituency [3:54] that Trump assembled to get us in the White House, [3:58] in the Senate majority and in the House majority. [4:01] They've alienated Maha by kowtowing to the pesticide manufacturers [4:05] and the pharmaceutical manufacturers. [4:07] They've alienated the fiscal hawks by running Doge out of town. [4:11] They've alienated the people who don't want to fight another war for other countries. [4:16] And so I'm worried that in November, [4:19] this is going to cost the party a lot. [4:20] But for me, it was completely worth it. [4:23] And I've got seven more months to keep going against the grain, [4:27] which means voting for principles and for people over party. [4:30] Let me ask you, big picture, [4:32] because you have said that you vote with Republicans more than 90% of the time. [4:37] You split when you think it better serves your constituents. [4:40] One of your constituents told a local reporter this, [4:43] quote, [4:44] I just got to the point where I couldn't support him anymore. [4:48] I saw Massey as almost what they would popularly call a rhino, [4:52] Republican in name only. [4:54] What do you say to that voter [4:56] and others of your constituents who might agree with him? [5:00] Well, they spent at least 20 million, [5:05] maybe 25 million against me. [5:07] And what they did is they expanded the pool of voters. [5:11] And there were a lot of misinformed, uninformed voters. [5:14] In fact, my daughter who lives outside of my congressional district, [5:17] she heard somebody in the voting booth next to her [5:20] trying to find my opponent's name on the ballot [5:22] because he didn't even know I wasn't his congressman. [5:26] That's how much they've bamboozled the people here in Kentucky. [5:29] They used artificial intelligence [5:31] to create a video, lifelike video, [5:34] that showed me checking into a hotel room [5:36] with AOC and Ilhan Omar and holding hands with them. [5:40] It was actually very effective on the boomers. [5:43] But here's the thing, Kristen, [5:45] that's only going to work for a little bit longer. [5:48] The boomers are going to, you know, [5:50] leave this country to the Gen X and the Gen Z [5:52] and the millennials and those folks [5:55] are the ones that I won overwhelmingly. [5:58] That makes me really hopeful for this country. [6:00] They don't get fooled by artificial intelligence [6:02] and they check the news. [6:04] They get news sources like from podcasts [6:06] and other sources. [6:08] So they won this race by fooling my voters [6:11] and expanding the base of people who vote [6:14] to the uninformed voters. [6:15] But look, I got 45% of the vote [6:18] in spite of this tremendous headwind. [6:21] That means 45% of the party still believe [6:23] in the ideals that I believe in [6:25] and have espoused in Washington, D.C. [6:28] Let me ask you about something [6:29] that you said in your speech on Tuesday night. [6:33] You said, quote, [6:34] if the legislative branch always votes [6:36] with the president, we do have a king. [6:39] Do you believe there is still room [6:42] in the Republican Party [6:44] for Republicans who vote independently? [6:49] You know what? [6:49] Even the Freedom Caucus has caved at this point. [6:52] They used to, basically the Freedom Caucus was formed [6:55] so that 30 or 40 Republicans [6:57] would have safety in numbers. [6:59] They have no safety in numbers now. [7:01] The principal ones are running for statewide office. [7:04] They're getting out of Congress. [7:06] I think there is room, though. [7:09] You just got to go up there [7:10] and vote your conscience. [7:11] And you know what? [7:12] I've inspired a whole generation [7:14] of state representatives [7:15] and city councilmen [7:17] who are running for office. [7:18] They send me direct messages. [7:20] They send me emails. [7:21] They've been inspired. [7:23] I do believe there's room in the party. [7:25] Maybe not in Washington right now, [7:27] but the next wave that's coming up, [7:29] they're going to vote for people over parties. [7:33] Well, I want to ask you [7:33] about some of the issues now, Congressman. [7:35] As you know, this week, [7:36] we did see Republicans in Congress [7:38] actually reject some of President Trump's priorities, [7:41] refusing to vote on funding [7:43] for both his ballroom [7:44] and that $1.8 billion [7:46] so-called anti-weaponization fund. [7:49] Some of the strongest opposition, [7:51] quite frankly, [7:51] that we have seen [7:52] from members of Congress, [7:54] Republicans, [7:54] to President Trump to date. [7:56] Do you think that the party [7:58] is beginning to break [7:59] with President Trump? [8:03] Well, listen, [8:04] they're worried about [8:04] their own political mortality. [8:06] It's true you can take out [8:07] Republicans in primaries, [8:09] but Republicans are going to be [8:10] very vulnerable this fall. [8:12] The ballroom, I mean, [8:14] that is such an egregious waste of money. [8:17] We were told that it would be funded [8:19] with private money initially. [8:22] I'd like to joke that Miriam Adelson [8:23] spent so much money in my race, [8:25] they have to ask for taxpayer money [8:27] for the ballroom now. [8:28] And it's, [8:30] I think it's a slap in the face [8:32] of Americans. [8:33] The president was bragging [8:34] on the Roman architecture [8:35] when, in fact, [8:37] we're operating like a Roman empire. [8:39] We're overextended overseas [8:41] with our foreign aid, [8:42] with our foreign bases. [8:44] We're spending money [8:45] that we don't have. [8:47] And the gasolene and rent [8:49] and groceries are so high [8:50] that people can't afford it. [8:51] I do think it's dangerous [8:53] to indulge in these things [8:55] like a gold-plated ballroom [8:57] in Washington, D.C., [8:58] while Americans are suffering. [9:00] Let me ask you [9:01] a little bit more deeply [9:02] about the anti-weaponization fund. [9:05] The president is asking [9:06] for $1.8 billion [9:07] to support people [9:08] who he says have been [9:10] unfairly treated [9:11] under the previous administration. [9:13] This would include [9:14] January 6th rioters. [9:16] Congressman, [9:16] do you support taxpayer dollars [9:18] going to those [9:20] who attacked police at the Capitol [9:22] and attacked the Capitol [9:23] on January 6th? [9:26] Well, if you're going to create a fund, [9:28] it has to be voted on by Congress. [9:30] The president can't do this [9:31] by executive authority. [9:33] Our founders would say, [9:34] no, you can't do that. [9:37] Listen, though, [9:38] people have been harmed [9:39] on the left and the right. [9:40] Their First Amendment, [9:41] Second Amendment, [9:42] Fourth Amendment, [9:43] Fifth Amendment rights [9:44] have been violated. [9:45] And I do think [9:46] that they should have some recourse. [9:47] But the solution isn't to hand out money. [9:49] But would you rule out giving money? [9:49] Would you rule out giving money [9:51] to those who attacked [9:52] or assaulted police officers? [9:54] The solution isn't to hand out money. [9:58] The solution is to change [10:00] the laws of this country [10:01] where if you have been harmed, [10:03] that you go before court [10:04] and you hear both sides of this. [10:06] And you could adjudicate those things [10:08] about whether the person [10:09] deserves the money or not. [10:11] But that's what's so hard [10:12] is it's so hard to go [10:13] against the federal government. [10:15] Whether you're on the left [10:15] or the right, [10:16] we need to change the laws [10:17] when they infringe on [10:18] your First Amendment, [10:19] for instance, [10:20] or your freedom to travel [10:21] or freedom not to be vaccinated [10:23] that you put in laws [10:25] where there's liability [10:26] for the people that force that, [10:27] whether it's private or government. [10:30] Congressman, we're almost out of time. [10:32] A couple more here. [10:33] I want to ask about the Epstein files. [10:35] As you've noted, [10:36] the Speech and Debate Clause [10:37] actually protects you [10:38] from being prosecuted [10:39] for whatever you say [10:40] on the floor of the House. [10:42] You have named names [10:43] in the Epstein files in the past. [10:44] Can we expect you to name more names [10:46] in the coming weeks and months? [10:51] Yes. [10:51] Todd Blanche is violating the law. [10:54] There's still millions of files [10:55] they haven't released. [10:57] We know from talking [10:58] to the victim's lawyers [10:59] that their own 302 forms [11:01] haven't been released. [11:02] We know the files [11:02] have been over-redacted. [11:04] I have released [11:05] at least three names [11:06] of billionaires [11:07] who are implicated in this. [11:09] I don't think it's possible [11:10] to get to convictions [11:11] with Todd Blanche at the top [11:13] and with the FBI director, [11:15] Cash Patel, at the top [11:16] because they've effectively [11:18] both perjured themselves [11:19] by saying that there's [11:20] nobody else in the files. [11:21] Even Melania doesn't believe that. [11:23] The first lady knows [11:24] that Jeffrey Epstein [11:25] didn't act alone. [11:27] And here's the great thing, Kristen, [11:29] whether I'm in Congress or not, [11:30] the Epstein Files Transparency Act [11:32] is a law and it goes on for years. [11:35] So if we can't get this attorney general [11:37] and this FBI director [11:38] to do the right thing, [11:39] the next ones who take those seats [11:41] are obligated by law [11:42] to release the files [11:44] that these individuals [11:45] are not releasing now. [11:46] Congressman, [11:47] I want to ask about [11:48] your political future. [11:49] Some of your supporters [11:50] were chanting, [11:51] President, President, [11:53] as you delivered your speech [11:54] on Tuesday night. [11:55] Are you considering [11:57] a run for president in 2028? [11:59] I will not rule out anything. [12:03] And right now, [12:04] I'm not going to rule in anything. [12:06] Look, I've spent the last five days [12:08] on my farm with my grandkids [12:10] and my cattle and my peach trees. [12:12] And it's a pretty nice life. [12:13] I don't know if I want [12:15] to screw that up again. [12:16] I've been in Congress 14 years fighting. [12:18] Every hour that passes, [12:20] I get decompressed a little bit more. [12:22] It's like coming up [12:23] from the bottom of the ocean. [12:24] And I'll take some time [12:26] and decide what's next. [12:28] But I think I will stay engaged [12:30] in some way or shape. [12:31] Maybe it's from the outside. [12:33] I've been exposing what's going on [12:35] in Washington, D.C. for years [12:37] and I'll keep doing it. [12:38] Congressman, [12:39] I hear you not ruling [12:41] a potential run for president out. [12:42] Would you run as a Republican? [12:47] I won't rule anything out. [12:49] I won't rule out a run [12:50] for county commissioner. [12:51] I used to be the county judge [12:52] executive here. [12:53] That was probably the best job [12:55] I ever had in politics. [12:57] I would encourage people [12:58] watching this show to act locally [13:00] and to run for local offices. [13:02] We can make a difference. [13:03] There's 3,000 counties in this country. [13:06] Run for one of those offices. [13:07] We got to change it [13:08] at the grassroots first. [13:10] All right, when you make your decision, [13:12] hopefully you'll come back and share it here. [13:14] Congressman Massey, thank you very much [13:16] for joining us this morning. [13:17] We really appreciate it. [13:20] Thanks, Kristen. [13:21] We thank you for watching [13:22] and remember, stay updated on [13:24] breaking news and top stories [13:25] on the NBC News app [13:27] or watch live on our YouTube channel.