This is why Trump is so hard to interview — About That

[0:00] How did Kristen Welker's interview with Donald Trump [0:03] on NBC's Meet the Press go from this... [0:05] President Trump, welcome back to Meet the Press. [0:07] Thank you. [0:08] ...to this... [0:10] That's how they vote in California. [0:11] They're crooked, just like you're crooked. [0:12] Your press is crooked, and Meet the Press is crooked. [0:14] To be fair, I'm not crooked, but let's continue. [0:16] Really? Well, you play right into their hands. [0:18] Let's continue. [0:19] You're either crooked or you're stupid. [0:21] I don't know how many interviews Trump has given as president. [0:25] It's almost certainly in the hundreds. [0:26] But the interview he just gave on Friday, [0:29] airing this past Sunday, [0:31] where he became so wound up that he walked out. [0:35] Your one-sided crooked network, sorry. [0:37] Let's call it quits, because I've had enough. [0:39] Thank you, darling. Have a good time. [0:40] It's a useful case study in all of the ways [0:43] Trump does not play by the usual rules. [0:46] Well, how do you define it? [0:48] I don't define it at all. I don't think about it. [0:50] I just do what I have to do. [0:51] And every so often, it creates just enough dissonance [0:54] and friction that you end up with this. [0:57] You ought to straighten out your press, [0:59] because you know what? [1:00] A country can never be great with a dishonest press. [1:03] Listen, we traveled all the way to Wisconsin for this interview. [1:06] In any interview, the unwritten contract, the understanding, [1:16] is generally meant to be that the journalist asks questions [1:19] that are informed and fair, [1:21] and the person responding stays on topic and answers directly. [1:25] It's a bit like a dance, where you have one partner who leads, [1:28] and the other person does their best to follow that lead in good faith. [1:32] But Trump sometimes turns his interviews into more of a fencing match, [1:36] where questions aren't so much received as they are parried. [1:40] Your secretary of state, Marco Rubio, said that the war had concluded, [1:45] and yet just this week, Iran attacked U.S. allies in the region, [1:49] calling it retaliation for a set of U.S. airstrikes. [1:53] Is the United States at war with Iran? [1:56] Well, they've been largely decapitated. [1:58] Okay, so the question. [2:00] Marco Rubio says the war is over, but the war doesn't seem to be over. [2:06] Do you think it's over? [2:07] To which Trump replies, well, Iran has been largely decapitated. [2:12] Basically, we've crushed them, which is a sidestep, really. [2:16] Avoiding the question about whether this is war [2:19] and swerving to one about whether whatever this is is successful. [2:24] In Trump's view, it has been. [2:26] Then he dodges the same question in a slightly different way. [2:31] Well, they've been largely decapitated, [2:33] and I call it a military exercise because people would rather have it called that. [2:37] It's not a big war for us. [2:40] It's not the most powerful military in the world. [2:43] I built it, frankly. [2:44] So now he's disputing the premise of the question. [2:46] What is war even? [2:48] A military exercise? [2:50] Either way, not a big war. [2:52] And by the way, that military has my name written all over it. [2:55] So now, as an interviewer, you're in a really sticky spot because do you roll things back [3:02] and try to chase the original question about whether the U.S. is currently at war with Iran? [3:08] Or do you pursue any or all of these new lines about defining war or whether this is a big war [3:15] or whether Trump is entitled to wage war? [3:17] It's a conflict, but not a war. [3:19] He really does seem to think that there's some sort of special dispensation he gets [3:25] if he avoids using the word war to describe what's going on. [3:29] And as the exchange goes on, we can start to see how Trump's tactic here is to not really accept the spirit of the question at all. [3:37] The interviewer keeps pressing. [3:39] There is a naval blockade in place, which technically is an act of war under international law. [3:47] So is this a war as long as there's a naval blockade in place? [3:51] Well, we have a blockade. [3:52] It's been extremely effective. [3:53] And the reason we have it is they tried to blockade and now we blockaded them. [3:57] Again, it's answering every question but the one being asked. [4:00] Is this a war? [4:02] Well, it's a blockade, a really good one. [4:05] And by the way, you want to know why we're doing it? [4:07] Because they blocked us first and we're just blocking their block. [4:10] I don't consider that a war, but if you want to define it as such, I guess you can. [4:15] Well, how do you define it? [4:16] I don't define it at all. [4:18] I don't think about it. [4:19] I just do what I have to do. [4:20] Which really summarizes one way in which it can be really difficult to interview Trump. [4:25] Because he understands you can skirt the entire conversation about the merits of war [4:31] and the responsibilities of war if you just reject the underlying framework. [4:36] If you spend all your time instead asking, what is war? [4:40] Who said there's a war even going on right now? [4:42] She was having trouble getting him to even agree to the facts. [4:47] And I think fundamentally that is one of the major issues with the president. [4:52] But so are you saying you would consider sending some of the troops home, sir? [4:55] Some of the 50,000 troops who were sent there as a part of Operation Epic Fury? [4:58] I would say this, it costs us very little to keep them there. [5:03] I don't consider them in danger. [5:05] Again, avoiding the question about bringing US troops home, turning it instead into a question [5:11] about why it makes sense to keep them there. [5:14] And this is a great example of two other ways Trump manages to completely defuse a very fact-based [5:22] question by twisting it like a pretzel into whatever he wants it to be. [5:32] So there's this thing that happens in even the most rock solid of relationships where one [5:37] person might ask the other, hey, it's garbage day tomorrow. [5:40] Did you take out the trash yet? [5:42] To which the other person replies, maybe a bit defensively, do you have any idea how busy [5:47] I've been today? [5:48] Does that sound familiar? [5:51] The challenge here, of course, is that the first person is asking a yes or no question. [5:56] The second person, however, maybe, maybe, jumps the gun, interpreting the question as [6:02] an attack. [6:03] Because maybe what the first person really meant to ask was, shouldn't you have taken [6:10] the trash out by now? [6:11] Mr. President, I wonder, how long are you willing to give Iran to make a deal? [6:18] How much longer? [6:19] You've been talking for quite some time. [6:21] Well, I wouldn't say that. [6:22] Well, you really haven't. [6:23] Again, you were in Vietnam for 19 years. [6:26] You were in Iraq for many years. [6:28] You were in Korea for many, many years. [6:30] You were in all the—I wouldn't even talk about World War II. [6:33] What Trump is doing here is three things. [6:36] First, he's not answering the question, how long are you willing to give Iran to make [6:40] a deal? [6:41] Second, he's instead choosing to interpret the question as, why haven't you already made [6:46] a deal? [6:47] And third, he's turning a question about clarity on U.S. policy into a debate about worldviews, [6:54] about whether, no matter the answer to Kristen Walker's question, there's any fault to be [6:59] found here at all. [7:00] He doesn't deal well with being challenged, and his response to those challenges usually [7:07] is to retreat to his preferred talking points. [7:09] Do you have a cutoff point in your head? [7:10] Why would you keep talking about speed, Kristen? [7:12] You were in Vietnam for 19 years, and you're telling me about three months. [7:18] And in three months, I've demolished the Navy, the Air Force, anti-aircraft. [7:23] They have no radar. [7:24] They have no nothing. [7:26] When he does this again and again, it doesn't really matter what the issue is. [7:29] Watch him interpret this specific question about farmers as an attack on how his administration [7:35] supports farmers. [7:36] Let me ask you, what is your message to farmers, many who support you, but who say they're [7:42] struggling? [7:43] Nobody's been bad at the farm. [7:44] You know, I gave farmers last term $28 billion because China took advantage and other people. [7:50] And it doesn't matter how directly the question is re-asked. [7:54] What's your message to farmers, though, Mr. President, who say they are struggling, they're [7:59] struggling to make ends meet? [8:00] Are you ready? [8:01] Are you ready? [8:02] Am I allowed to talk? [8:03] You keep asking questions and you don't listen to the answers. [8:05] I love the farmers and the farmers love me and the farmers trust me. [8:10] Is basically refusing to play this game at all, refusing to send farmers any message because [8:16] he would rather debate the broader question of whether he loves farmers and whether they [8:21] love him. [8:22] She avoided being distracted by his tossed comments, by his red herrings, the things that [8:29] he was tossing out, you know, in a combative way, trying to throw her off her questions. [8:35] She wasn't succumbing to the temptation of entering into a sparring match because an interview [8:41] is not a sparring match. [8:42] But I think what ultimately makes interviewing Trump so difficult is that he doesn't really [8:48] stick to the field of play. [8:50] He'll go low if he needs to. [8:52] Your elections are crooked and you're crooked and Mr. Press is crooked. [8:56] And so is ABC and CBS and CNN. [9:00] One of the most effective ways Trump has undermined the mainstream news media is to realize that [9:12] you can counteract bad press by calling the press bad. [9:16] Because as you know, in the last term we were a dead country, Kristen. [9:19] I know you're a big liberal, a big progressive. [9:22] No, I'm just a journalist. [9:23] We were a dead country. [9:25] When challenged, Trump doesn't only fight back by arguing about the subject matter. [9:30] He often argues about the interviewer, insisting that the questions lack credibility or that [9:35] fact checking him is proof of wanting to attack him. [9:39] There's this exchange towards the end of the interview where Trump is attacking the [9:43] Justice Department for treating January 6th rioters unfairly. [9:47] What they did to the lives of people, they destroyed people. [9:50] They sent people to jail who did nothing wrong. [9:54] Just to be very clear, there's no evidence of what you're saying. [9:57] But let me ask you about Todd Blanche. [9:59] Listen to me. [10:00] Listen to me. [10:01] There's tremendous evidence. [10:03] There's nothing but evidence. [10:04] The election was rigged. [10:06] It was a dirty election. [10:08] And this literally goes back and forth for like a full minute and a half, [10:11] where he's making claims about the current California primary being rigged. [10:16] And it's happening again right now in California. [10:18] You've never presented evidence that the 2020 election was rigged. [10:22] It's happening right now in California. [10:23] Right now. [10:24] Look at what's happening in California. [10:25] Where's the evidence to that? [10:26] Now, spoiler alert. [10:27] Trump doesn't have any evidence to give. [10:29] And Trump's very old and debunked claim about the 2020 election that his California claim [10:35] is piggybacking on has been litigated again and again across multiple states. [10:41] And the issue studied endlessly, ultimately falling short in court repeatedly. [10:46] But suffice to say, there's a point at which it becomes clear. [10:50] Trump's path here only starts at talking over the interviewer. [10:54] He's also going to insult her. [10:56] State and local officials acknowledge they are slow. [10:59] They're urging. [11:00] No, they're crooked. [11:01] They're urging the votes to be counted quickly. [11:02] That's how they vote in California. [11:03] They're crooked. [11:04] Just like you're crooked. [11:05] Your press is crooked. [11:06] And meet the press is crooked. [11:07] To be fair, I'm not crooked. [11:08] But let's continue. [11:09] Really? [11:10] Well, you play right into their hands then. [11:11] Let's continue. [11:12] You're either crooked or you're stupid. [11:13] Let's continue. [11:14] You play right into their hands with this rap. [11:16] You know that these elections are rigged. [11:20] Your network knows that they're rigged. [11:23] And reporters have had to learn how to keep their cool and keep it professional, even [11:28] if the president of the United States will not. [11:31] Why do you blame the Biden administration? [11:33] Because they let him in. [11:34] Are you stupid? [11:35] Are you a stupid person? [11:37] Quiet, quiet. [11:38] You know what? [11:39] CNN has no ratings because of people like you. [11:42] You know, she's a young woman. [11:44] I don't think I've ever seen you smile at me. [11:46] But look, you know, one thing I should say is that Trump maybe is one of the most [11:51] scrutinized presidents alive. [11:53] And to his credit, he does regularly accept these opportunities to speak with the very [11:58] media who are harshest on him. [12:00] Apparently, he's already agreed to speak to Welker on Meet the Press again sometime in [12:04] the future. [12:05] He rarely refuses to answer a question outright. [12:07] But instead, he'll often answer a different, much easier question than the one the interviewer [12:13] asked. [12:14] A question of his own making in his own head. [12:16] And the challenge then for the journalist is that every follow up almost becomes a negotiation [12:21] to get back to the original question. [12:24] In any interview with Trump, there is no guarantee that the conversation will stay on topic, that [12:30] any evidence will be presented, that the interviewer will be allowed to fully steer the conversation, [12:35] or even that they'll not become a target themselves. [12:39] Trump feels very at ease changing the subject, disputing the questions themselves, attacking [12:45] the interviewer, and frankly, speaking past them sometimes. [12:49] Because Trump is keenly aware there are more than just two people in any interview. [12:55] There are many millions, a whole audience watching every word.