The Vice President and I Discuss Political Philosophy

[0:07] Well, welcome to a very special edition of Bishop Barron Presents. I'm here in the pool house of the [0:12] vice president's residence, and I'm here with the vice president of the United States, J.D. Vance. [0:17] Mr. Vice President, thank you for taking the time. Of course, good to see you. I'm just eager to talk [0:21] to you about a lot of things, but especially your new book, Communion, which is terrific and a great [0:25] follow-up to Hillbilly Elegy. There's just so many themes, you know, political, religious, personal, [0:30] otherwise, makes a very rich read. But I want to start with the fact that your confirmation name, [0:36] when you were fully received in the Catholic Church, is Augustine. And of course, you can't [0:40] help but notice an Augustinian arc to this book. Augustine's a guy from the backwoods. You know, [0:47] when he came to Milan and Rome and he spoke Latin, he's a great master of Latin, but they made fun of [0:51] his accent, his African accent from the backwoods. His ambition drives him to the top of what he [0:57] wanted. He gets there and then realizes the emptiness of it. Obviously, you found resonance [1:04] that Augustinian story. Tell me just a bit about that, the Augustinian arc of the book. [1:10] Yeah, well, it's funny. You draw on that parallel, and I think others have drawn that parallel. It's [1:14] not something I was even aware of entirely. There are certainly parallels between our lives. [1:21] But what always attracted me to St. Augustine was more the intellectual piece of it than the [1:26] personal piece of it. I definitely read, you know, confessions at some point. Actually, [1:30] the Dominican friar who baptized me gifted me a copy, and I read it, and I was, you know, [1:35] very moved by it. But I was much more interested in the city of God and some of the things that he [1:40] had written about, you know, Roman politics and Roman philosophy and sort of the way in which [1:46] Christianity was in some ways an antidote to the things that he had seen in his own life. [1:52] And frankly, it's some of the problems that he saw in the Roman Empire around him. [1:55] And, you know, in particular, there are two things that I point out that, you know, I was definitely [2:00] in my kind of atheist phase because I was raised evangelical, as I talk about in the book, fell [2:05] away from my faith, called myself an atheist for some time. I was in college, and we read The City [2:11] of God in a political philosophy class. And I was just really moved and affected by it. I was like, [2:15] this is like clearly a very profound person. And, you know, when you're in that kind of atheist phase, [2:22] or at least when I was, there was sort of this idea that I'd categorized religious people as [2:28] simpletons, as sub-rational or anti-rational, whereas it was the atheists, especially the new [2:34] atheists who were super smart. [2:36] They were the smart ones. [2:36] That's right. And there were many ways in which that story is obviously wrong. But St. Augustine is [2:44] one of the people who sort of pierced that in a very early phase for me. [2:47] To me, it's interesting because I'm focusing there on the confessions narrative. [2:50] But the City of God, the principal theme of which I would say is right worship. His argument there [2:56] is Rome went bad because of bad worship. Worship gods who themselves were jealous and resentful [3:02] and violent. And the Christian God, the God of love and forgiveness and so on, is the right one [3:07] to worship. [3:07] Correct. [3:08] And that all of our political arrangements should follow from right praise. [3:12] Yes. [3:12] That to me, it's an ancient idea, but a very relevant idea and lively in the conversation today, [3:18] don't you think? [3:18] Yeah, that's right. Well, and I think the subtext of it is that every society, whether [3:23] it considers itself secular or not, every society has an underlying theology. [3:28] Worship something. [3:29] It worships something. [3:30] Right. [3:30] And I think the Roman Empire and I guess the fourth century that Augustine was surrounded by [3:35] had become very corrupted. And there's this passage, I'm going to butcher it if I try to quote it, [3:41] but I talk about in the book where, you know, Augustine sort of criticizes the Roman elites [3:47] where, you know, they hang out and they care about money and then they get really drunk. And then [3:53] they, it's just like, it's a very vivid criticism of the decadence of the Roman elite. And it's like [4:01] any society led by people like this is eventually going to go by the wayside. [4:05] Yeah. [4:06] And that, that is, again, it sounded very resonant to me because I do think that there's something [4:11] very corrupt about American elites in, in 2026, certainly in 2013, 2014, when I'm sort of struggling [4:18] with this stuff and thinking about this stuff. So that, that, that is all true, but fundamentally [4:24] every society worships something. [4:26] Right. [4:26] And I think that if you are worshiping the right things, a lot of virtue and a lot of goodness will [4:32] flow from it. If you're worshiping the wrong things, eventually you're going to go, [4:35] go off track. [4:36] You know, Paul Tillich, the Protestant theologian who was a great Devil Tame Augustine said that. [4:41] He said, all you need to know about a person or a society, you can derive from the question, [4:46] what do you worship? [4:47] Interesting. [4:48] What's of highest value to you? [4:49] Yeah. [4:50] I found that in spiritual direction with people, what are you worshiping? What are you after? [4:54] And then everything else will fall in place around that central question. [4:57] Yeah. [4:58] At one stage of your life, you were worshiping success. [5:02] Correct. [5:03] Very frankly, that you were after, you know, rising in the world and getting to the top [5:08] of the, you know, Yale law school and then the legal world and all that stuff. And what [5:14] you saw, it seems to me, is that was bad worship. [5:18] That's right. [5:19] No, that's exactly right. [5:20] So I don't know that this evangelical, you know, theologian you just mentioned, Paul [5:25] Tillich. [5:26] Yeah. [5:27] It sounds fascinating to me and sounds like something I should take a look at. But no, [5:31] I mean, so I get to this phase in my life and I'm, you know, I've gotten to Yale law school. [5:37] I worship success. [5:38] Mm-hmm. [5:39] It's not, I try to draw this distinction in some of the interviews, certainly in the [5:43] book where it's not that ambition is always bad, right? That's not, that's not the argument, [5:50] but it's like, there are two kinds of ambition here. There's the ambition to do something [5:57] amazing or to do something transformative or to help a lot of people or to build a beautiful [6:02] building. Like you don't build, I mean, speak of Milan. If you've ever seen the Milan Cathedral, [6:06] one of those beautiful buildings in the world, ambitious people built this thing. [6:09] Yeah. [6:10] But there's a separate kind of ambition that I think is much more endemic in our society in [6:16] 2026. Again, especially among our leaders, which is like the desire to just get ahead [6:22] for its own sake. You sort of have the sense of social rank and you assign value based on [6:29] where did people go to school or how much money do they make or what are their credentials. And [6:33] that is, I think, very, very common among the set that I was running in. So, you know, [6:39] I'm in my mid-20s, I'm at Yale Law School, and I just realized almost instinctively the social [6:45] currency is credential. People don't care about what you've achieved. They don't care about what [6:50] you're going to achieve. They don't care about your family. This is a very weird thing to me [6:53] because I grew up in a community where like the thing that people were most interested in you is, [6:58] how are your kids doing? How's your wife doing? How's your husband doing? And yet at Yale, it was, [7:02] who is going to get ahead in this game of life? And I found that very unsatisfying. [7:08] What I, you know, gather from your book very strongly, and it's a standard bit of the spiritual [7:13] tradition, is that makes you a complete slave of the opinion of others. [7:16] Exactly. [7:17] What you were going for was not really something in itself. You were going for admiration. [7:20] Correct. [7:21] Aquinas would call that the lust for honor. [7:23] Yes. [7:23] Right? The big four, he says, we seek in place of God, are wealth, pleasure, power, [7:27] and honor. Well, honor is that. [7:29] Yes. [7:29] But see, honor makes you a complete slave. [7:31] Exactly. [7:32] Because I could be doing the greatest things, but the people, they don't recognize it. [7:36] Yeah, yeah. [7:36] Or, hey, I got this big degree and I got this big job, and it's big because people admire it. [7:41] Yeah, yeah. [7:42] But that is an empty spiritual space to be and makes you a slave of other people. [7:46] That's exactly. And you care way too much about what they think. You allow what other [7:50] people think to influence. Again, not just what you do, but even the thoughts in your head. [7:54] And this was another thing that I picked up when I was at Yale Law School was like, [7:57] again, I assumed that there was this hyper-rational element to American elites. [8:02] Yeah. [8:03] These are high IQ. These are high achieving. These are people who are people of the mind. [8:08] They're not superstitious religious people like the ones that I discarded. And yet, [8:13] their way of thinking about the world is much more narrow and constrained for this very reason, [8:17] because their opinions are so based on just what other people believe that it becomes derivative [8:23] of the social set in which they run in. And this leads me to another Catholic philosopher where [8:31] Rene Girard talks about this idea that human beings, look, we're naturally social. [8:36] Yeah. [8:36] And this can lead to certain virtues and certain vices. But one of the vices that it leads to [8:41] is that we very often identify what we want based on what other people want. [8:47] Memetic desire. [8:47] Memetic desire. And that's exactly what was happening. It describes so perfectly the world [8:53] that I saw around me. [8:54] Yeah. [8:55] And then again, you start saying, well, okay, so I had this idea of what's right and what's wrong [9:03] that's become unsatisfying to me. And there are all of these people who happen to be like [9:08] famous Catholics and famous Christians who seem to be identifying that there's like a fundamental [9:14] weakness in this way of seeing the world. And again, that was very powerful to me, [9:19] and that kind of got me back on the right path. [9:21] Tell me more about Girard. I had the chance to meet him toward the end of his career. [9:25] Oh, really? [9:25] He came to Mundelein Seminary to give a series of lectures. [9:27] Okay. [9:27] Marvelous person, great personality. [9:30] Yeah. [9:30] Remarkable looking person too. [9:33] You discovered him through Peter Thiel. [9:34] Correct. [9:34] And you call Thiel one of the smartest people you ever met. [9:37] Yes. [9:37] I've met him a couple of times, and he is indeed a very bright man. [9:41] I found with Girard, once you get it, you can't un-get it. [9:45] Once you see what he saw, it's like, oh my, that's everywhere. [9:49] Exactly. [9:50] He's one of these... [9:51] I think he'll be seen as kind of a father of the church in 500 years, because [9:55] the spiritual perception is so deep. And the mimetic thing is... [9:59] I mean, all of the advertising is based upon it. [10:01] Why do I want that product? [10:02] Well, because someone else wants it. [10:03] Exactly. [10:04] Right. [10:05] But then mimetic desire leads to mimetic rivalry. [10:08] Correct. [10:09] Now we're in conflict with each other. [10:10] Yes. [10:10] Which also is everywhere in our society. [10:13] Correct. [10:13] Mimetic conflict leads to the scapegoating mechanism. [10:16] Sure. [10:17] You say it there, and I, boy, have I sensed it. [10:20] You want to go to a Girardian playground, go into the social media. [10:24] That's right. [10:25] Of mimetic desire, mimetic rivalry, and scapegoating. [10:28] Yes. [10:28] The mobs that form online. [10:30] Correct. [10:30] I think he's the great prophet of our time. [10:33] Yeah. [10:34] No, I think that's very interesting. [10:35] He is certainly the prophet of social media, because the thing about mimetic desire, again, [10:40] this idea that we identify what we want based on what other people want. [10:44] And again, once you see it, like you said, it's very hard to unsee it. [10:47] I mean, look, I have a nine-year-old, I have a six-year-old, I have a four-year-old. [10:51] To see it with children is unbelievable. [10:53] Very obvious. [10:54] Like my nine-year-old will pick up a toy that none of the kids has played with in six months, [10:59] and instantly all of them want that toy. [11:02] Again, it is such a powerful explanation of human psychology. [11:07] But here's the thing. [11:09] In a normal society, pre-social media, right, this takes time, right? [11:15] Like mimetic desire happens through normal social interactions. [11:21] You see what somebody else is focused on. [11:24] You see what somebody else cares about. [11:27] But social media has sort of taken this and supercharged it. [11:30] It can spread like wildfire. [11:32] And so you see what other people are talking about, what other people are thinking, [11:36] what other people are desiring much more quickly, [11:40] because the virality of social media puts it in front of you at such a quick speed. [11:46] And so, again, because it sets that desire aflame and makes it spread so rapidly, [11:53] it also makes the conflict side of it spread so rapidly. [11:56] And how many times, I mean, not even on X or Twitter or whatever we're calling it these days, [12:01] but if you go to like Facebook back in its early days, [12:06] how many times would I see people that I knew and loved get into arguments on the internet [12:12] where I would think to myself, this is not who you are. [12:16] These are two really lovely human beings that are calling each other these terrible names [12:21] on social media. [12:23] Like, how did we even get here? [12:24] You know, Gerard, and your friend Peter Thiel as well, [12:28] and we'll talk frankly about the demonic element. [12:30] Yes. [12:31] The devil has two great names in the Bible, right? [12:32] He's the accuser, and he's the diabolos, which means the scatterer. [12:38] Yes. [12:39] There they are. [12:39] Yes, that's right. [12:40] Go to social media. [12:41] Accusation and then division. [12:43] Yes. [12:43] No, but it's a playground for that. [12:45] And I really think the church has got to be involved, not just to inform people, [12:51] but to name these dynamics that are going on. [12:53] But you sensed them in your own rise, your own career. [12:57] I want to stay for a second, too. [12:58] The ambition thing is interesting to me, [13:00] because Aquinas talks about magna nimitas, which means magna anima, big soul. [13:04] Yes. [13:04] He likes magnanimous people. [13:06] To have a big soul means I want to accomplish something great for the kingdom of God. [13:11] Yeah. [13:11] But see, the Gerardian take would be, hey, and you and I can both desire the same great goal. [13:17] Let's say you're a politician. [13:19] It's the common good. [13:20] Yes. [13:21] And like, hey, let's all get involved. [13:22] We all want the common good. [13:24] We're not looking at each other. [13:26] We're looking together at a transcendent third. [13:29] Yes. [13:30] That's Aristotle, too. [13:30] Yeah. [13:31] But see, that's the distinction between a healthy [13:34] ambition and the one that becomes fussy and self-regarding. [13:37] Correct. [13:38] You know. [13:38] Yeah. [13:38] And I think it can become even the desire. [13:41] This is, again, the social element of human beings, it's not always a vice. [13:45] It can very often lead to virtue. [13:47] Right. [13:48] But it has to be ordered in the right way. [13:50] And so, you know, let's say you take two politicians who both are trying to achieve the [13:56] common good. [13:57] Yeah. [13:57] Now, that can lead to them working together, them recognizing their respective strengths [14:03] and weaknesses and actually trying to sort of do that together. [14:06] Right. [14:06] That could also lead to, well, if we both want the same common good and then we both, [14:11] let's say we both want the same office in order to get to that common good, then that leads [14:15] to rivalry again for rivalry's sake. [14:17] And so, I do think that one of the takeaways of sort of this through line of Augustine to [14:24] Gerard is that you constantly have to be on guard and recognize that something that is good in you [14:32] can be ordered to something very positive, but can also be distorted. [14:36] And this is, you know, you talk about Satan, like I think of, you know, I forget who has this quote, [14:42] but the devil's greatest trick is to convince people that he didn't exist. [14:45] Right. [14:45] There is this thing where it's like a very, very good thing and pointed in the right [14:51] direction. [14:52] If you just get a little off pace, it can become quite malicious very quickly. [14:56] It can turn like that. [14:58] It's a subtle thing, which is why you need prayer and spiritual direction a lot in your life. [15:02] Exactly. [15:02] Because you can be going this path, oh, I'm on the magnanimous path. [15:05] I'm just seeking. [15:07] No, but you actually took a turn a while ago. [15:09] But the signs of it, though, look in Galatians. [15:12] Look at the fruits of the flesh, you know, Paul calls them, or look at mimetic rivalry breaking [15:17] out. [15:17] Then you know you've deviated from the right path. [15:20] That's right. [15:20] But to my mind, spiritually speaking, that's the great thing in this book that people can [15:24] really get. [15:25] It applies to anybody, no matter what field you're in. [15:27] How are you desiring? [15:28] What's the nature of your desire? [15:31] And you tell a moving story about your own conversion. [15:35] Hey, tell me a bit more, because I was really interested in the stuff on Catholic social [15:39] teaching and the economy. [15:41] Sure. [15:42] Rerum Novarum, the great fundamental text of the Catholic social teaching tradition, [15:46] Leo XIII, late 19th century, a text you read even in your atheist period that you found [15:53] powerful and naming dynamics in the political order better than many people were left, center, [15:58] and right. [15:58] That's right. [15:59] Tell me, what was it exactly that grabbed you about that text? [16:03] Well, there are a few things. [16:05] I mean, one is I was compelled by the fact that it was trying to strike a balance and in some ways [16:12] was very prophetic. [16:13] I mean, when Rerum Novarum was written, you didn't know where the industrialization trend [16:18] was going. [16:18] You couldn't have possibly seen communism, fascism, all these things rising up. [16:23] And yet, even though that, you know, like Leo XIII doesn't talk about the fascist movement [16:29] 70 years later, 60 years later, you can kind of see he's very worried about the tumult and he's [16:34] very worried that if we don't strike the right balance between human dignity and prosperity, [16:39] between workers and capital owners, that it's going to inevitably lead to this conflict. [16:44] So that's one thing that I found profound about it is just the recognition that the [16:49] balance really mattered. [16:50] The other thing that I think is very interesting, and I actually was sort of thinking about Rerum [16:55] Novarum in the speech that I gave on July 4th. [16:59] There's this idea that in Marx that the classes have to inevitably be in conflict against each other. [17:08] And then I think that there's this idea in more traditional libertarian or free market thinking [17:14] that, you know, there's sort of never any real conflict. [17:18] It's – and to the extent that it is, it's all a violation of individual rights. [17:22] Whereas I think what Rerum Novarum is saying is that, yes, conflict can sometimes be an inevitable [17:28] part of these social changes, but the way to solve the conflict is by cooperating between these [17:34] different sort of segments of society. [17:37] And what a statesman should be doing, what somebody who's focused on the common good should be doing, [17:42] is not pretending that, like, there isn't a problem if you have destitution on the one hand [17:47] and extreme wealth on the other, but also not pretend that the solution to that is conflict, [17:54] the powerlessness versus the powerful. [17:56] And then the powerless sometimes win and the powerful sometimes win. [18:00] There can be a real compromise. [18:03] And what, you know, in some ways the idea of a labor union, there's sort of the classical Marxist [18:10] understanding of a labor union, which is conflict between the owners and the workers. [18:14] But in the Catholic view, it's actually not conflict. [18:18] It's this is an institution that is meant to give the workers some say, certainly some bargaining power, [18:25] some anchoring, and there can be a more cooperative arrangement from there. [18:29] It doesn't always have to be a zero sum battle of one against the other. [18:33] And I try to think about that a lot is how can we how can we gear certain policy outcomes in a way [18:41] that doesn't ignore the problems that come with destitution, [18:45] but tries to solve it through cooperation as opposed to conflict? [18:48] Yeah, I think it's the central thing. [18:50] And, you know, we bishops wrestle with a lot because we're trying to teach the Catholic social [18:55] doctrine. And of course, it famously doesn't fit within the left, right. [18:58] Correct. [18:58] You know, language of our political parties. [19:01] And the way you put it there is really good because Rerum Novarum stands firmly athwart socialism. [19:07] It offers like five strong arguments why we don't like socialist or communist arrangements. [19:13] On the other hand, you have a line like this from Leo XIII. [19:16] Once the demands of necessity and propriety have been met in your own life, [19:21] everything else you own belongs to the poor. [19:23] Yes. [19:23] Now, that's classical Thomas Aquinas, and that's the universal destination of goods, [19:28] meaning this world belongs to God, really. [19:31] We're all stewards of it. [19:32] And so once, you know, necessity and propriety, now those can be defined broadly, [19:37] but once that's been met in your life, the rest of your property belongs to the poor. [19:42] Yeah. [19:43] And I've been saying to Catholics for years, like, that's a deeply challenging teaching. [19:47] It's an extremely challenging teaching. [19:48] Just as the opposition to forms of socialism is a deeply challenging teaching, and Catholic doctrine [19:53] is somewhere in that space. [19:55] Yes. [19:55] Not popular all the time. [19:57] That's why, you know, we get caught in the crossfire a lot. [19:59] No, no. [20:00] I would say, like, not popular most of the time. [20:03] Yeah. [20:03] And even in my own life, and I think about this all the time with our own economic policies and [20:07] the administration is, you're trying to strike that balance between promoting prosperity, [20:12] but also promoting the dignity of the poor, the dignity of workers. [20:16] It is, again, it's a hard balance to strike. [20:18] I'm not saying that it's easy, but again, I do think at its best, what Catholic social teaching [20:24] is doing is sort of asking very difficult questions and posing very difficult challenges [20:30] to people like me. [20:31] And, like, one of the basic axioms or the basic principles that I try to apply when I [20:37] think about this stuff is, to the extent that I get really comfortable that a thing that we're [20:42] doing fits within Catholic teaching, that's the thing that I should resist. [20:48] Yeah. [20:48] Because it's not easy. [20:49] Right. [20:50] It's demanding a lot of both public officials, but also of all of us. [20:55] And we, you know, we talk about this, of course, Bishop, with the immigration question, [21:01] right? And I think, again, there is this demand that you treat people with dignity. [21:08] There's also an acceptance, maybe even endorsement of the fact that nations are allowed to control [21:13] their borders. How do you balance these things when controlling your borders inevitably leads to [21:18] law enforcement operations that sometimes can create issues? That's the balance that we [21:25] fundamentally have to strike. And I think to the extent that we ever feel comfortable, that's [21:30] probably a sign that we should get out of the comfort zone. [21:32] Yeah. And, you know, we can stay at the high level of abstraction, and we tend to agree at [21:37] that level. So when you get down to cases, okay, in this particular case, because I bring that up [21:43] at our bishops' conference, I mean, we're always very strong on, you know, Jesus welcoming the stranger [21:47] and being open to the immigrants. And, you know, all of us. Look, in my own diocese, we have a lot of [21:52] folks from Honduras and Guatemala come to work in the pork processing plants in my diocese. [21:56] So we all face the pastoral challenge of, you know, people coming to our country and being [22:02] taken care of and so on. But then, yes, as you say, the right of a country to defend its borders, [22:07] to enforce its immigration laws. And that—see, what I would say is it's not my job as a bishop [22:13] to work out the details of that particular policy. That's your job. That's the job of [22:18] people who really know what's obtaining on the ground and so on. [22:22] Yeah. [22:22] And that's an ongoing problem. That's an ongoing issue. How do we bring these to bear? [22:26] I think my job as a bishop is to bring the great principles to bear and make sure that they're [22:31] taught publicly and so on. But then it's the job of Catholic politicians, I would say, to now apply [22:37] these in the particular case. [22:38] That's right. And that's how I think of it, too. And I think that for that to happen the right way, [22:44] for you to play your role correctly and for me to play my role correctly, [22:48] it just requires a constant ongoing dialogue because as you get into the nitty gritty of [22:53] applying these principles in the real world, you're not always going to do it perfectly. [22:58] There are going to be ways in which the pastoral duties sort of maybe we're not taking proper [23:04] account of it. So I think at its best, again, there is going to be an inherent sort of—there's [23:14] going to be a relationship where the clergy are constantly sort of trying to engage on these [23:20] issues in a positive way. And then we're constantly trying to apply these principles [23:25] in the best way and the most consistent way. And that will, you know, as we've seen sometimes with [23:31] the Vatican and our own immigration policies, that sometimes it does lead to conflict. But, [23:36] you know, one of the things I've tried to drive home just over the last few months where [23:40] I've been talking a lot about this and there's been a lot of discussion about, [23:44] you know, the Catholic clergy disagreeing with Trump administration on this or that issue is [23:48] I try to say, you know what, like that's actually okay. Because that dialogue is sort of how the [23:55] clergy does its job and it's how we sort of respond. And that's not a bad thing to me. [24:01] You know, there's this idea and it's—again, it's because of our like hyper-memetic political media, [24:08] but like every time the pope says something mildly critical of a Trump administration policy, [24:13] it's like, oh, the pope hates the Trump administration. Well, you know, actually, [24:19] no, maybe the pope is trying to provide the kind of moral teaching that is inherently part of his job. [24:26] And then we have to take that and try to apply it, which is part of our job. [24:29] And conversation is essential to that. And not just kind of exchanging invective at a high level [24:35] of abstraction. Because at the high level of abstraction, we tend to agree with each other. [24:39] Yes, you know, openness to the stranger. Yes, a right to defend the border. [24:44] That's right. Okay. Now let's get down to cases. [24:46] That's right. [24:46] But to do that, you have to be in steady conversation. [24:49] Exactly. Which is why I kind of, you know, not to take this—obviously, you ask whatever questions [24:53] you want to, Father. But I always found the conservative reaction to Pope Francis, [24:59] I say this as a very conservative Catholic. I take the teachings of the church very seriously. [25:04] I'm obviously very politically conservative. But I always kind of liked that Pope Francis would just [25:09] throw these bombs out there in the media because it would force a conversation. [25:13] Yeah. [25:14] Now, sometimes, yeah, he would say things that I would say, [25:16] wait a second, is that actually consistent or is that correct? [25:20] But it forced a dialogue. Yeah. [25:22] And he was kind of a genius at that. [25:24] Stay with Francis for a minute because I think that document late in his papacy called [25:29] Dignitas Infinita is one of the best summaries of Catholic social teaching in its breadth and its [25:35] variety. Sure. [25:36] So, you know, left-wing people, yeah, love this, this, and that. Right-wing people love this, [25:41] this, this, and that. All the above. And that was a good challenge to the political conversation. [25:48] That's right. [25:50] No, Francis was, another good example is that universal destination of goods. So, [25:55] in another one of his later documents, he talks about a nation's obligation to poor nations. So, [26:02] again, once the demands of necessity and propriety have been met, the rest of what you own belongs [26:06] to the poor. That applies personally, but also at the national level. Well, he was being criticized [26:11] by a lot of right-wing Catholics as a Marxist. I hate Marxism, but I wrote frequently saying, [26:16] no, that's not Marx, that's Thomas Aquinas, what he's saying there. So, that's a good example of [26:21] how to shake up that conversation in a good way. That's right. [26:25] And we should keep having it. Yes. [26:26] That's what bugs me in some way. We don't have it at the level we should. [26:30] Well, and that's, again, back to the point of the devil being a deceiver is one way to try to turn [26:37] people's minds off of very traditional, and I think ultimately true, Christian teaching is to name [26:45] it as something else. Again, to your point, Catholics have very serious theological problems [26:53] with Marx. Like, we are not Marxists. But there are ideas that are very not Marxist but are also [27:00] extremely Christian about the universal destination of goods that we have to contend with. And again, [27:06] like, I talk about this a little bit in the book. I'm not saying I have all the answers. I'm not saying I [27:10] know how to apply all these principles in the perfect way. There's always this kind of balance [27:15] between, you know, promoting economic growth, but then ensuring that everybody has their sort of, [27:21] you know, a good opportunity to get their piece of the pie, so to speak. [27:25] Yeah. [27:26] But I find this just one of the things that I liked, and one of the things that more importantly spoke to [27:34] some deep part of me about the Catholic social teaching is this idea that Jesus Christ does not [27:43] confine himself to the little spheres of your life, that if it's true, it has to be true everywhere. [27:48] And he's the Lord of your life, the whole of your life. [27:50] Exactly. And yes, like, Jesus really cares about how you treat your wife, and he really cares about [27:57] how you treat your kids, but he also cares about everything else too. And I do think that this is, [28:02] you know, one of the frustrations I had growing up, again, as a young conservative Christian, [28:09] is this idea that it sometimes felt like whenever Christians engage in politics, [28:15] we are very comfortable engaging with this or that social or cultural issue, but not anything else. [28:22] And I actually think there's an opportunity for us to rediscover a more fully Christian politics that [28:29] says that actually Jesus has opinions about all these things. And in fact, if you don't get all of [28:35] it right, you risk getting the most important parts wrong. Yeah. [28:39] You can't just confine your faith to these narrow little slices of society or of culture [28:46] or of your own life. It's got to be true for the whole thing. [28:49] Remember C.S. Lewis' line about most of us, if we invite Jesus in, is to the front parlor of the house [28:55] for an hour a week and then please go away. But he wants to be lord of the living room and the dining [29:00] room and the bedroom and the kitchen and the basement and the pool house. He wants to be lord [29:04] of the whole operation. And that includes our economic and political lives. We can't bracket [29:09] those. That's not spiritual stuff. Of course it is. Everything. [29:11] Yeah. No, and I think I gave into this, again, more in my sort of anti-Christian age, but there was a [29:18] part of me that wanted to say God should be about God and religion. Churches should be about churches. [29:25] Leave the politics to the politicians. But again, if you really believe that Jesus Christ is the Son [29:32] of God and you believe all the truths that flow from that, to your point, he actually has a lot [29:38] to say about all parts of your life. Right. And see, I think the answer is people [29:42] like yourself and others that I've met, for example, in the Trump administration, [29:46] with a lot of Catholics. Yeah. Good. Catholics in positions of high influence who understand [29:51] the political, economic, social, all the details. I don't understand all that. That's not my [29:56] bailiwick. Yeah. It's your bailiwick. But to bring your Catholic formation and sensibility into that [30:02] work is a way to do it. You know, I love the chapter in your book on the dismal science on economics [30:07] because it reminded me very much of my training not far from here at Catholic U when I was a kid many [30:12] years ago. Yeah. And we had great professors of philosophy who would say, we get it today [30:16] completely backwards. In the classical world, let's say Plato-Aristotle, the point of politics [30:22] was to make us virtuous. It was to make us good. Yes. To seek the common good, to create the right [30:27] society. Economics, right, literally the law of the household, was private matter. It was a household [30:33] affair, right? And we reversed it. Yeah. [30:36] Where now almost everything in politics is about economics. That's our main preoccupation in economics. [30:42] And the moral order, oh, that's private. That's right. Well, that's stayed in my mind ever since. [30:47] That's a really insightful thing. And you were catching that, I think, as you look at how we [30:52] measure the value of life and how much of political discourse is about GDP. And it's read through an [30:59] economic lens almost exclusively. That's right. And how problematic that is. Talk about that a little bit. [31:04] Yeah. And it's not to say that growth doesn't matter. If you don't have growth, [31:07] if you don't have prosperity, then obviously a lot of people will suffer. But a friend of mine [31:13] made this observation. He called it economic piety, which it's a play on words, P-I-E-T-Y. [31:20] Oh, OK. Yeah. [31:21] Which this idea is that we have become so obsessed with the economic measurements that that's how we [31:27] judge ourselves. That's how we judge our success as policymakers. And fundamentally, let's just take [31:34] like a very simple example. When a, you know, let's say you have a young married couple, [31:40] both are in the labor force, OK? Let's say mom gets pregnant, they have their first child. And like a [31:48] majority of American women, right, if you actually look at the data, what most American young moms say [31:53] that they want is that they want to spend a little bit more time with their kids when the kids are young, [31:58] but they also want to have access to their career, OK? Economically, right, if you're purely measuring [32:04] it by the economic statistics, the very best thing is for that young mom to literally go back to work [32:10] the day after she has the baby. So if, and this is like, obviously, it's an absurd argument that's [32:16] meant to illustrate something, which is that if you obsess purely on what you're measuring economically, [32:23] then you can come to all these like very distorted conclusions. And you will sometimes hear, as absurd [32:29] as that example is, obviously, we want, you know, even the moms who want to go right back to their [32:34] careers need a couple of weeks just to recover from, obviously, the stress of delivering a baby. [32:39] But sometimes, you know, you will hear politicians on the other side say things like, well, you know, [32:47] abortion is really good because if you didn't have abortion, then you'd have way too many women who [32:53] weren't able to join the workforce. Wait, wait a second. If that's our argument here, our argument [33:01] is that it's good because it allows people to join the workforce, then we've made an idol out of the [33:07] American corporation. We've made an idol out of economic growth. And again, that is what I think [33:12] is a deeply anti-Christian idea because the economy exists to serve the human person. We don't order [33:20] our society so that we have a line on a chart go up. And if you do, then it leads to a lot of absurd [33:26] outcomes. And the market can make us good. Think of like a Michael Novak, you know, argument that there [33:32] are virtues associated with participation in market. Of course. Think of John Paul II saying the whole [33:37] purpose of regulating the market is not to eliminate it, is to invite more people into it and make it [33:43] more entrepreneurial and make it more, you know, of a growth producing reality. To me, that's a good [33:50] place to get. It avoids the easy, you know, bifurcation. Of course. Yeah. And it can also lead, [33:55] again, I think if you're obsessed again with the short term economic numbers, it can lead to a lot of [34:01] short-term thinking. Like one of the criticisms that I have of the 20th century economy, and I think [34:09] it actually previewed the rise of Donald Trump and his ascension within Republican politics, is that we [34:17] didn't think enough about long-term investment. And, you know, oh, let's ship the factory to Mexico or [34:24] to China. Now, if you measure it by the economic statistics, shareholder price goes up by 2.2%. And, [34:32] you know, maybe GDP goes up by 0.1%. And that actually was a rational decision. But then all of [34:37] a sudden, after 25 years of that, you look and you realize you've atrophied the skills of your workers, [34:43] you've atrophied your industrial base, you've made yourself less self-sufficient as a nation. And so, [34:48] again, even by its purely economic logic, this short-term financial thinking can lead to some [34:56] very bad outcomes. Let's say that for a second. I'm intrigued by how the two parties, the two great [35:02] parties in our country have changed a lot in the last maybe 25 years. Sure. How did Trump most change [35:08] the party of, let's say, Ronald Reagan? The first election I was able to vote in was Reagan, 1980. [35:14] Yeah. I was 20. And, you know, the people that trained me were very much shaped by JFK and the [35:20] Civil Rights Movement and the Peace Corps. Sure. My generation, it was Watergate. It was the end of [35:26] the Vietnam War. It was the Carter Malaise, et cetera. For our generation, my generation, [35:32] Reagan comes along as this great, you know, sunny, optimistic figure that does bring the country back [35:38] to greater economic health and so on. How has the party changed from, let's say, Ronald Reagan 1980 [35:44] to now? What's the biggest change in the Republican Party? You know, there's a lot there, [35:49] but I do think the single biggest change is in the way that President Trump thinks about [35:56] the economic development of the country versus President Reagan. And again, I think we're all, [36:02] in some ways, subjects of our time. I don't mean this as a great criticism of Ronald Reagan, [36:08] but I do think that this idea that globalization and the economy was just an inevitable law that [36:16] was going to march along. And to the extent that your economic policy mattered, you should be [36:20] facilitating it rather than pushing back against it. And I think what President Trump has brought [36:25] as a recognition, obviously, I agree with this, a recognition that there is a national and community [36:31] element to economics. Yeah. That like, you know, if you look at it again, purely by the economic numbers, [36:36] it doesn't matter whether your antibiotics are manufactured in China or whether they're [36:40] manufactured in Milwaukee or Indianapolis. But if you look at it from the perspective of what [36:45] actually makes nations strong, of course, you have to manufacture antibiotics closer to home, [36:51] because if, God forbid, there was some conflict or even just a COVID-like supply chain disruption, [36:57] you don't want to wake up in a country as we did in late 2020, where our doctors didn't have [37:02] enough hospital gowns and hospital masks because of the supply disruptions. So I think there's just [37:08] this recognition that, you know, yeah, you can buy and sell with other countries, you can trade with [37:13] other countries, but you have to have some native economic self-sufficiency. And that is a big [37:20] difference. If you go back to the early Reagan era, if you look at what Milton Friedman was writing [37:25] about economic policy at the time, there are a lot of things where he would say, you know, particularly, [37:30] like, let's say, tariffs to protect your pharmaceutical industry, Milton Friedman would [37:34] say, that's insane. I think that Donald Trump clearly had the better of the argument then. [37:40] I don't know how you even, again, I'm biased, but now the president saying, of course, we have to [37:46] protect our pharmaceutical industry, our steel industry. That is now, I think, become almost [37:51] conventional wisdom to the point where, you know, one way of measuring success politically is, [37:59] at what point does a given idea become broadly accepted? And then it's just a question of how to [38:05] accomplish it. So if you go back to, you know, one of Reagan's great successes, Bill Clinton famously [38:11] said, the era of big government is over, right? He had sort of won that argument to the point where [38:15] even the Democrats were mirroring his talking points. If you look today in 2026, Democrats may [38:21] disagree about how we're doing it. But everybody pretty much agrees, we have to bring more of our [38:28] industry back to the United States of America. We have to be more self-sufficient. [38:32] That's right. You mentioned Milton Friedman. I'm dating myself, but I remember this interview with [38:36] Phil Donahue. The younger people don't remember Phil, but he was, you know, this talk show host. [38:41] Sure. [38:41] Had serious people on. And Milton Friedman was an older man at the time and treated Donahue like a bright, [38:46] but not very well-read, you know, sophomore. [38:48] Yeah. [38:48] And was laying out, you know, the fundamentals of the very laissez-faire, you know, hands-off economic [38:53] approach. And it's an entertaining interview, but it strikes you as, well, that's not Catholic [38:57] social teaching. We believe in the market. We do. We don't like socialism. We don't like [39:02] content. We believe in the market, but a market regulated in a morally alert manner or something [39:07] like that. And I think that's what you're gesturing toward there. [39:10] That's right. [39:10] Tell me a bit. I asked the same question to Rokhan and him on my show. I talked to Tom [39:15] Swasey about this. You know, I'm from Chicago originally. I'm an Irish Catholic, which meant [39:20] Democrat. My family was involved in Democratic politics in Chicago. Roe v. Wade had a lot to do [39:28] with Catholics getting uneasy with the Democratic Party. But what has happened like the last about [39:36] 10 years where the Democratic Party today, it seems to me, is one that my father would not even [39:41] recognize. Sure. [39:42] Give me, what's your read? What happened to sort of, in my judgment, sort of radicalize the party? [39:49] Yeah. So I think a few things have happened. First of all, I do think that the most fundamental [39:53] change is religious. And, you know, my grandparents were classic blue dog Democrats. My grandfather [40:00] was a union steel worker. This is the man who raised me. [40:02] Like a Scoop Jackson type Democrat. [40:04] Oh, absolutely. And, you know, voted for Reagan in 84 and otherwise never voted for a Republican ever [40:11] in his entire life. That was my father, right. [40:13] So what happened, though, is if you go back to that Democratic Party in the 1980s, [40:19] and I actually talk about this, I think some in the book, that, you know, religious identification, [40:23] religious attendance, both Republicans and Democrats were equally Christian. [40:28] Yeah. [40:28] They may have went to different churches. [40:30] Right. [40:30] Obviously, you know, Jewish Americans at the time were more in the Democratic Party and the Republican [40:36] Party. But there's still just this sense of we're like a broadly speaking, ecumenical, [40:42] God-fearing country. You see that in both the Democrat and the Republican parties. [40:46] I think that what has happened is that religion itself has become very disfavored among Democratic [40:54] elites in some ways for the reasons that I talk about in the book. And I think one of the really [40:59] troubling trends in Democratic politics, and I always ask this question when I think about who is a [41:04] really compelling Democratic politician on the other side, I always ask myself, who are the Black [41:12] candidates who came out of the Black church? Because that is such a core anchor of the Democratic [41:20] Party in this country. And if you look today, like, go to the U.S. Congress and ask yourself, [41:26] what Democrats under 50 came out of the Black church? The answer may be none. [41:31] You won't find any. [41:31] The answer may be none. So I do think that what has happened is that, you know, [41:36] Christianity has always had this moderating influence on politics. And unfortunately, [41:42] the Democrats have become less and less comfortable with any sort of religious role in politics. And I [41:48] think that's, again, as Justin said, that doesn't mean they believe in nothing. [41:52] That believes they believe in anything. And I think you see that very much in today's modern Democrats. [41:57] Yeah. I mean, look at something like Martin Luther King. So the civil rights movement is not just [42:03] participated in by religious people. It was led by religious people. [42:05] Correct. [42:07] Explicitly gospel-based people. [42:08] Yes. [42:10] King gives a great speech on the steps of Lincoln Memorial and effortlessly weaves together American [42:14] themes and biblical themes. [42:15] Absolutely. [42:16] Letter for the Birmingham City Jail, same thing. [42:18] Yeah. [42:19] It weaves together American civil rights activism and Thomas Aquinas. [42:23] Right. [42:23] Like a super theological. [42:24] Letter for the Birmingham Jail is a super theological argument. [42:27] People underappreciate that. [42:29] And I gave a talk at the 250th thing on the mall, and I made that point because I was saying, [42:34] just as Jefferson, these rights come from the creator and were created equal and so on, [42:40] that that's what King saw as well, that the American ideal is grounded in a finally biblical ideal. [42:45] It's not theocracy, it's not the imposition of religion, but it's the information of the [42:50] political by the religious. And yeah, I would agree with you there, that that's been lost in [42:55] a lot of our political discourse and convictions. [42:58] That's right. [43:00] Tell me a little bit about, I have a quote here from you, when you went to the Munich security conference. [43:06] Yeah. [43:06] It was a really interesting gathering, some of the leading lights in politics, economics, [43:11] the military too, I suppose. [43:12] Yep. [43:13] Here's your quote. It was Western Christian civilization and the values particular to it. [43:18] The concept of natural rights, including freedom of speech, [43:21] a sense of duty to one's neighbors, an obligation of the strong to protect the weak. [43:26] Meaning that's what undergirded the convictions. [43:29] Correct. [43:30] And that's even s, that's been lost. [43:32] That's right. Yeah, so this is a very formative thing for me. So I had just become a United States [43:38] senator. I was, you know, young, I was sort of up and coming and I go to the security conference, [43:43] which really is, it's the defense conference in the world, especially for the United States [43:48] and its allies. And of course, you know, the Ukraine conflict is sort of top of mind there [43:53] in Munich, but there are a lot of other sort of bigger and deeper questions. Like what does the [43:57] Western Alliance stand for? And what I realized is there is an extraordinary Christian foundation [44:08] to the entire Western Security Alliance. Like the person who founded the Munich Security Conference [44:14] was one of the Christians who was involved in the attempt to assassinate Adolf Hitler. [44:19] Yeah. [44:20] And he was one of the few who survived. But then you actually look at, you know, that early [44:25] post-war Western Alliance. Look at Eisenhower, some of the things that he said. I mean, [44:30] he would be called a theocrat if you gave anything like Eisenhower's speeches today. [44:36] Or Konrad Adenauer on the German side, right? [44:39] Absolutely. And, but all of these Western leaders, they thought that they were creating something [44:46] very influenced, founded on a Christian concept. And now, and what I saw in Munich was a certain sense [44:53] of tragedy or sorrow. There was a nostalgia for that era. Like the Western Alliance in 1950 was so [45:01] strong and everybody felt, and this is, I guess, in 2023, well, now it's so weak. And I was kind of [45:08] struck by the fact that people weren't asking the question, well, what had really changed about the West [45:14] from 1955 to 2023? [45:18] It's obvious what changed. [45:19] And it's obvious, right? It's that our society's kind of lost that binding moral vision, that unifying [45:26] moral vision. And they were trying to recapture all of the good things out of it without the underlying [45:32] foundation. And they're almost, you know, there was something, because I went into this conference, [45:38] and I remember I was kind of angry at them. I felt they were naive. I felt like they were dumb. I felt like [45:43] they weren't really understanding what was really going on in the world. And I came out, actually, [45:47] with this deep sense of respect, but also sorrow, because they're nostalgic for a world that doesn't [45:54] exist anymore, but they can't quite bring themselves to get it back. [45:58] They don't know how to get it back. [45:58] Well, you know, it's that Will Hertzberg, the cut flowers theory, you know, that we cut flowers, [46:03] you put them in a vase, they'll look fine for a while, but then they'll die in short order. [46:07] Exactly. [46:07] They're cut off from their base. [46:08] Yes. [46:08] Well, the same thing with the great moral values and political values that inform people like [46:13] Eisenhower and Adenauer and that generation. They were rooted in the ground of Christian faith. [46:18] Correct. [46:19] Now, cut them out. Oh, human rights and freedom and the individual and put them in the water. [46:23] Yeah, they look good for a while, but they are going to fade. [46:26] Yes. [46:26] And that's what you noticed, huh? [46:28] That's exactly right. [46:29] You know, and my little sermon on that point, and it's self-reproachful here, is I think the [46:34] churches lost their nerve. The church that I came of age in, so not because of Vatican II, [46:39] but after Vatican II, was a hand-wringing church. It was an apologetic church. It was [46:44] unsure of itself. [46:45] Yes. [46:46] But the church of the era you're invoking, that's a time of also like a Reinhold Niebuhr, [46:51] right? The theologian of Paul Tillich comes to mind, too. Thomas Merton, Fulton Sheen. [46:55] Of course. [46:56] Yeah, yeah. [46:56] We're going to beatify him soon. [46:57] But these sort of confident Christian voices that were drawing upon the Bible and Augustine and Aquinas [47:03] and the great people, they were applying it to the political conversation in a robust way. [47:08] The church I came of age in was this hand-wringing, I'm not sure, we're here to listen to the culture, [47:14] I'm not here to impose upon you. [47:15] Yes. [47:16] That was a disaster. [47:18] I agree. [47:18] It seems to me. And what you're saying, and I really agree with it, both are stronger when, [47:24] both religion and politics are stronger when they're in a robust, confident dialogue with [47:29] each other. And religion rightfully claims its place as the ground, the fertile ground out of [47:36] which these values emerge. Augustine would have held that, Aquinas would have held that, [47:40] Thomas Jefferson held it in his own enlightenment way. [47:44] Martin Luther King clearly held it, right? That would be my diagnosis, end of sermon on that. [47:51] Yeah, no, look, I totally agree. And this is, you know, again, I think this scares certain [47:57] non-religious people because they assume, okay, you know, Senator J.D. Vance, when I was a senator, [48:02] I'm going to pick up the phone and call Bishop Barron to tell me how to vote on a particular piece [48:05] of legislation. No, no, that's not what we're talking about. [48:07] What we're talking about is a more morally and spiritually assertive church. [48:12] And the country just, it needs it. And this is, there are all these reasons why I wrote this book. [48:17] I think the main reason I wrote this book is because I was trying to sort of puzzle through as a parent, [48:22] why does religion take for some kids and not for others? [48:25] Well, why not start with me? Because I myself was raised in a religious family and then fell [48:31] away from it and came back. But I do think there is an implied message to the church itself, [48:37] and this is why I talk so much about Francis, is like, don't be so afraid to speak the truth [48:44] of the gospel. The country actually needs it. And I talk about this a little bit, but okay, [48:50] one of the craziest experiences I've had since being vice president is I went to do a TPUSA event, [48:57] and I was talking backstage to the kids. And I hate to say that, but they are kids to me, [49:02] right? I'm 41 years old. They're all in their late teens, early 20s. [49:05] They're grandkids to me. [49:06] Yeah, that's right. But I was hanging out for a little while and talking to them. And one just [49:13] sort of crazy throughout, she was like, I think social media and AI is totally changing dating. [49:22] And I was like, oh, really? Well, tell me more about that. And I live in a bubble. I'm surrounded [49:26] by secret service agents. So whenever I get in front of a crowd and I'm actually able to have a [49:30] conversation, it's almost like, you know, a thirsty man gets to a well. Like, I just absolutely like, [49:37] tell me all about this because it's so fascinating to me. And she was explaining that her and her [49:43] friends, the way that they were like engaged in text conversations with boys that they were [49:49] seeing was to feed the conversation into ChatGBT and then to have ChatGBT spit out. [49:55] It's like Cyril and Bergerac, right? And I'm like, whoa, this is crazy. And then I realized actually [50:03] talking to these kids, like, you know, because some of them were, you know, they were actually [50:08] close to getting married. Some of them were dating. Some of them were just like very, very down on. [50:13] And it was almost like an itch had been scratched because all of them just all of a sudden were [50:17] telling me what a bad situation there was in the dating culture. And I realized that, you know, [50:24] the technology that actually brings man and woman together successfully is the church. [50:34] Yeah. [50:34] And yet, so you have young people who are using ChatGBT and they don't want to. And meanwhile, [50:41] you've got a church that actually is really good on this stuff and is an amazing institution to bring [50:47] young men and women together. And yet still feels to me a little bit like what you talked about, [50:53] sensitive or almost there's a lack of self-confidence that I see in the church. [50:58] But the country needs a more assertive church, I think, to get back on track. [51:03] Yes. You know, Pope Benedict said that what people want out of a priest, he was saying, [51:07] it's not, you know, social worker, it's not psychologist, someone to hold your hand. [51:11] They want a master in the spiritual life. [51:13] Yes. [51:14] I thought, right. Now, of course, who was his great hero? Augustine. [51:17] Yeah. [51:17] And what young people, anybody, but especially young people want, they want a guide. It doesn't [51:22] mean someone imposing himself and all that, you know, proselytizing it, not that. But someone that [51:27] with confidence can say, like when we talk about the outset of this conversation, there are certain [51:31] dynamics in the spiritual life that the great masters have known forever. And things that are [51:36] making us very unhappy, the church has a lot to say about that. [51:39] Yes. [51:39] Here is why, you know. And so, yeah, an assertive church in that good sense, [51:44] absolutely is what we want. [51:46] That's right. [51:46] Hey, tell me a little bit. I was very intrigued by, you know, famously, you're one of the last [51:50] people to see Pope Francis alive. [51:52] Yeah. [51:52] And he asked to see you, and you're very moved by that. And here's the very frail man, [51:56] literally about to die, had the conversation with you. But then afterwards, you sat down, [52:01] I think it was Cardinal Peril and some of the other, you know, foreign policy people, and you just [52:05] felt that they didn't get beyond, I think, as you put it, trite platitudes. [52:09] Yeah. [52:10] It kind of speaks to our earlier part of the conversation, but say a little bit more about that, is [52:14] what was dysfunctional in that conversation? [52:16] Yeah. So, I should say it's the Archbishop there who's from, I think he's from Ireland. [52:23] Paul Gallagher. [52:24] Yeah. So, you know, he and Cardinal Peril, and I've spent a fair amount of time with [52:29] them over the past year and a half. I have a lot of respect for them. But I also think that there was, [52:35] in the first meeting that I ever had with them, I found Cardinal Peril particularly fascinating, [52:40] especially when it's just you and him one-on-one. But in this formal diplomatic setting, you're in [52:45] this beautiful castle at the Vatican, and you're in this amazing room. It just felt like they were, [52:52] they didn't want to move past the diplomatic platitudes. And, you know, they would say, [52:59] well, of course, the country has the right to control its borders, but, you know, we would really [53:04] prefer that you show more respect for the dignity of the migrant. And it's like, okay. [53:10] Which seems everyone of goodwill would agree with that. [53:12] Exactly. Like, Father, I don't disagree with that. [53:15] But like, let's talk, what do you actually mean here? Or here's my basic summary of that is, [53:24] again, I think that there is an impulse within the church that is very comfortable in dealing with [53:31] the highest level of generality, because then it's not challenging to anybody. [53:35] Right. [53:36] But I think what the country actually needs, what society, what the entire world actually needs, [53:40] again, is not, there's like the nitty gritty, we don't need the pope to be the president or king, [53:47] but we, I think, need more than the level of generality that we currently see coming out of [53:54] the clergy today. And that's, of course, a difficult balance to strike. You know, [53:59] you can get sometimes too close to the details, sometimes too general, but I feel very strongly [54:03] that right now the current hierarchy is way too uncomfortable dealing with anything other than [54:10] abstraction. And that has, that just really has to change. And like, I, you know, I'm the vice [54:15] president of the United States, encouraging them to be more active, even though I know it will mean [54:21] they sometimes are going to be more critical of the things that I do or the things that the [54:24] administration does. The conversation is very important. And I think, you know, Pope Leo, [54:31] obviously is, is, is very new in his pontificate. He's a very young man. Obviously he understands [54:37] American culture better than any, any pope in history. I really hope that he, he actually changes [54:47] this because I think that he has, he's clearly a brilliant guy. He's clearly a very holy man. [54:53] Steve McLaughlin Augustinian He's an Augustinian. [54:55] And I think that at its best, he could make the church engage with the world in a much more direct [55:03] way. And I, you know, we'll, we'll see. I think you see signs of that happening. I thought the AI [55:08] encyclical was very, very good, but I, I think that is what the world actually needs out of the church [55:14] in this moment. It is in a period of crisis and the church in some ways is in a technological age. [55:21] It's the most ancient technology that's ever existed. And the reason it survived this long [55:27] is because it actually works. Yeah. Let me, in the remaining minutes, [55:30] uh, shift back into maybe more personal. Sure. How do you pray? What's your prayer life like? [55:36] Yeah. Well, I'm trying to get better on this. This is one of these things where [55:40] you get out of practice on it and it's hard to fully get back into practice. [55:44] But you got to take the time that Thomas Merton, someone asked him, [55:47] what's the one thing I can do to improve my prayer life? And Merton said, take the time. [55:52] Yes. That was the number one recommendation. That's right. So what I, I normally will do, [55:58] and this is, you know, a bit of practice is in the morning, I will try to do a decade of the rosary. [56:04] And then before I go to bed as well, and that's just kind of, you know, do the Alpha, [56:09] our father, do the glory be, do the Hail Mary. Um, you know, of course, you know, [56:14] pray with the kids before dinner time. But the thing that I'm, I'm trying to do a little bit more [56:20] is to get, is to get the kids into it as well. So to say prayers before bedtime, but probably 80% [56:27] of the time I, I fail on that because either bedtime is too chaotic or because I'm at the White [56:32] House. So there's the thing that I, I, one of the things that I lost from going from my Christian [56:41] upbringing to becoming atheist is that I just got out of practice with it. And I found actually, [56:46] one of the things that really attracted me to Catholicism is that when I got back into prayer, [56:52] it's like, I didn't have a natural voice for prayer anymore. And it's hard to describe, [56:57] but it's like when I was 17 and I would get on my knees and clasp my hands together, [57:01] I would know what to say. When I was 28, I didn't know what to say anymore. But there are all these [57:06] prayers that you don't, you know, you just doing it, getting into the practice of it. And this is [57:11] one of the things that I always encourage people to do is you don't have to be perfect. You don't [57:16] have to say, you don't have to have this like super eloquent prayer. Sometimes just doing it is [57:22] the most important thing. And so that's what I try to do at least once in the morning and once at night. [57:26] Practice your way into it, right? So take the time, but also have a practice. [57:30] I think it's great to carry some symbol of the faith around with you. So someone like you, [57:37] I mean, who are facing every day tough decisions, important decisions affecting the lives of [57:43] millions of people literally around the world, that you have a rosary in your pocket or you have a [57:49] crucifix or you've got an icon or something that you carry with you, that you can touch with your [57:55] hand. That's a good idea. [57:56] Lord, help me. [57:57] Yeah. [57:58] You're tempted or you're torn. What do I do? Lord, help me with this, you know? Something as [58:04] simple as that. [58:05] Yeah. [58:05] The Jesus I trust in you is sort of, I probably say that a dozen times. [58:10] Which is terrific. [58:11] Yeah. [58:11] And the Jesus prayer is thinking of, you know, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, [58:14] have mercy on me, a sinner, repeated over and over again. And he gets a little thing called the [58:19] Schottky, a little rope of knots, you know? [58:24] Yeah. [58:25] And carry that in your pocket. [58:26] Okay. [58:26] That's a good idea. [58:26] I think that sort of thing, that really concretizes it. Having the kids, too, [58:30] learning the ways of prayer, that's great. [58:31] Yeah. [58:32] Because, you know, kids, you've got to discipline and say, [58:33] just do it. [58:34] That's right. [58:34] I don't care if you just do it. [58:36] Right. [58:37] But then you can participate in that, too. [58:38] Sure. [58:39] And say, okay, I'm going to kneel down with you. [58:41] I'm with C.S. Lewis there, too, that, you know, the body has so much to do with prayer. And that's [58:46] a very Catholic thing. It's not just a Platonic exercise of, I'm going to flee from the body [58:51] up to God. No, God is incarnate. And so, prayer is something I do. So, kneeling and folding your [58:58] hand. Or as a Catholic, even holding the rosary can put me in an attitude of prayer, because it's [59:05] an embodied thing. [59:06] Sure, sure. [59:06] But I think for someone like you, as a Catholic in very high office and very [59:10] important influence, that right worship, you know, that your order to God over and over again [59:16] is super important. [59:18] Yeah. Yeah. No, that's absolutely right. And I just want to be, [59:23] you know, the one piece of advice I'd give is you don't have to be perfect at it. [59:28] Right. [59:28] Like, there are just all of these ways in which, you know, it's 8.15 and I'm like, all right, [59:35] I'm going to get home and make the kids pray before bed. And then I get home and, you know, [59:39] it's like one we're trying to get the pull up on and the other is, you know, arguing about brushing [59:44] their teeth and then it just doesn't happen. What I try to do is just try, just do as much as you can. [59:53] And one thing that I, again, the devil's a deceiver. One thing that was definitely true when I was like, [1:00:00] you know, first getting back into the faith was this idea that, you know, this should be easier than [1:00:06] it is, right? This should come more naturally. If God's actually speaking to me, then why does [1:00:12] this require so much like practice? And, you know, that I think is the exact wrong way to think about [1:00:19] it. You know, the reason it requires so much practice is because, you know, we are fallen [1:00:23] creatures. Yeah, we're off kilter. [1:00:25] And the way that we get back to that good place is through the practice. [1:00:29] In heaven we'll pray effortlessly. [1:00:30] Yes. [1:00:31] But we're in this fallen state where our minds and souls and bodies are off kilter. [1:00:36] And so, but prayer is this conscious effort to say, okay, I'm gonna, I'm trying to get back [1:00:41] on line here. Maybe we can end with this. You know, Jose Maria Escriva, the founder of Opus Dei, [1:00:47] someone was asking him about prayer and he said, and they thought, you know, I don't know how to pray. [1:00:51] He said, the minute you say to God, I don't know how to pray, you're praying. [1:00:55] Yeah. [1:00:56] That's a great, that's a great line. [1:00:58] You know, like, okay, that's all you need to do is take the time even to say, Lord, [1:01:03] I'm lost. I don't know. That's Thomas Merton's famous prayer begins, my Lord God, I have no [1:01:08] idea where I'm going. That's the opening line. You're already praying, you know, but I think for [1:01:13] someone like you to carry that symbol of the faith around maybe and to make prayer just a [1:01:18] touchstone of your life. Well, with that, I think Mr. Vice President will bring it to a close, [1:01:22] but thank you for taking the time out of your extremely important and busy schedule to talk to me today. [1:01:28] Thank you. God bless you. God bless you. Thank you.