'The Interview': Andrew Schulz, 'Podcast Bro,' Might Be America's Foremost Political Journalist

[0:00] This message is brought to you by AppleCard. [0:02] AppleCard puts the power of titanium in the palm of your hand. [0:05] What does that mean? [0:06] It means the power to earn unlimited daily cash back on your purchases, every day. [0:11] It means a materially different credit card accepted anywhere in the world MasterCard is accepted. [0:16] Ditch the plastic. [0:18] Upgrade to titanium. [0:19] Apply in the Wallet app on iPhone today. [0:22] Subject to credit approval, AppleCard is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. [0:27] Terms and more at AppleCard.com. [0:28] From the New York Times, this is The Interview. [0:35] I'm David Marchese. [0:37] This week, my subject is the comedian and podcaster Andrew Schultz. [0:44] He's become an arena headliner on the strength of his very irreverent, [0:47] defiantly anti-woke stand-up. [0:49] He is extremely unshy about leaning into raunch, slurs, and ethnic jokes. [0:55] His most recent special, though, which is called Life and which came out earlier this year, [0:59] did see him move into more vulnerable territory. [1:02] It's about his and his wife's experience with IVF, [1:04] but it's still pretty not safe for work. [1:06] Despite all his success with stand-up, [1:11] Schultz has arguably become even better known for his podcasting. [1:14] His shows Flagrant with Akash Singh and Brilliant Idiots with Charlemagne Tha God [1:18] are appointment listening for millions. [1:20] And not just for humor, but for their political discussion as well. [1:24] That's led to him becoming one of the leading lights of the so-called manosphere, [1:28] though I doubt that's a term he'd ever apply to himself. [1:31] But whatever you want to call Schultz's platform, it's definitely influential. [1:35] Donald Trump went on Flagrant last fall ahead of the presidential election. [1:38] And this year, progressive politicians like Bernie Sanders and Pete Buttigieg have been guests on the show. [1:43] Which, for me, begs the question of what it is exactly that Schultz is trying to achieve with Flagrant, [1:48] and what, if any, responsibilities he feels he has. [1:52] Oh, and just a quick note before we start. [1:54] First, Schultz refers a couple times in our interview to Felice. [1:58] Felice is a video producer on the show who was in the room while we spoke. [2:01] And second, this interview contains language that some people may find defensive. [2:05] All right, here's my interview with Andrew Schultz. [2:08] Andrew, thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. [2:15] I appreciate it. [2:16] Absolutely. I'm honored. Thank you for having me. [2:18] You know, the people listening or watching won't realize this, [2:21] but both the camera guys in here have mustaches. [2:25] Our engineer in the adjacent room, mustache. [2:28] Our producer, who you were just talking with, mustache. [2:32] I didn't get the memo. What happened? [2:33] I don't know, but, like, I walked in here. [2:36] I told Felice that there's a lot of testosterone. [2:39] She's safe. There's nothing that could possibly happen, okay? [2:42] If anybody walks through that door, you've got four mustaches ready to tear their head off. [2:47] And me. [2:47] I don't know about you. I think you're going to be with Felice, [2:49] and I think we're going to keep you safe as well, David. [2:52] Nothing's going to happen, okay? [2:55] Okay, so to start, you know, I think it's fair to say that [2:59] it's probably in the last four or five years that you've really had a blow-up in your career. [3:05] Sure. [3:05] What do you think has shifted in the culture [3:07] to enable you to come to prominence the way that you have? [3:12] I have trouble, like, figuring out exactly when it happened, [3:14] but when I first started posting stuff on the internet, [3:18] specifically stand-up, things changed for me in my career. [3:21] So, um, essentially, I was trying to get, like, an HBO special, [3:26] or back in the day, this is, like, Netflix is just coming to prominence, [3:29] so it's, like, or Comedy Central. [3:30] I was just trying to get on anything. [3:32] I was trying to get five minutes, and I couldn't get any motion with stand-up. [3:35] And out of desperation, like, I filmed my own special, [3:38] pitched it to everybody. [3:39] Nobody wanted it. [3:41] And, um, I was like, I'm going to put this online. [3:44] I think there is an appetite for comedy online. [3:47] And at the time, I think that there was, like, a little bit of a, you know, [3:50] sensitivity, especially in corporate America, [3:53] about, like, edginess and jokes, et cetera, [3:55] which I think is, like, completely gone the other way now. [3:58] But at the time, people were really sensitive or concerned. [4:01] And so my gamble, which was not really, it was just pure desperation, [4:04] was maybe if I put this out on YouTube, [4:07] there will be an audience that likes this type of comedy. [4:10] And I had confidence in it because I was touring the country, [4:13] doing comedy clubs every weekend, [4:14] and, like, seeing audiences react to the comedy. [4:18] And, like, so I put it out, and a weird thing happened. [4:21] Like, I got, like, some data from talking to people, [4:23] not people in the industry, just friends. [4:25] They'd be like, yeah, I watched, like, 20 minutes. [4:27] Like, everybody watched only, like, 20 minutes. [4:29] And I was like, okay, maybe it's too long. [4:31] Especially for someone you don't know. [4:32] Right. [4:33] Like, getting an hour out of somebody's day is difficult. [4:36] Like, everybody has a minute. [4:37] Everybody has five minutes. [4:38] Everybody has maybe 20. [4:39] So I think I put out, like, a 20-minute version of it. [4:42] And the next weekend, I sold out a comedy club. [4:45] And I was never, like, a sell-out-a-comedy club guy [4:47] at that point in my career. [4:49] And I was like, well, that's kind of cool. [4:51] And I didn't attribute it to the special. [4:53] And then the next weekend, I sold out another one. [4:56] I was like, what the? [4:57] Like, is this from the special? [4:59] Like, and then I started putting out a new joke [5:02] every week for a year. [5:04] 52 weeks of comedy, I think I called it. [5:06] And tickets kept on selling. [5:08] And just momentum kept on building. [5:10] And I was like, whoa, there's really something over here [5:13] on the internet. [5:14] And I can be, like, my authentic self with comedy, [5:17] despite, like, what the cultural sensitivity of the time is, [5:19] which you can't really control. [5:22] And it just continued to build. [5:25] It's interesting, because on the one hand, [5:27] we think of people's attention spans [5:28] as being extremely limited and you need to chop stuff up. [5:31] But then on your podcast, you'll go for two hours. [5:34] Or Rogan will go three and a half hours. [5:36] So if you know that, in all likelihood, [5:40] people are tuning in and out of attention [5:42] to what you're doing on the podcast, [5:44] does that change how you think about the material [5:47] that constitutes the podcast? [5:50] No. [5:51] We're still going to have the same conversation [5:52] and endeavor to make you want to tune in the entire time. [5:56] But, like, you might be driving. [5:57] Like, you don't have to watch every second of it. [6:00] Whereas, like, with a stand-up special, [6:01] you want to watch. [6:02] You want to understand, like, the tension. [6:03] You want to see the, you know, ideally my face [6:06] and how I'm reacting to these things. [6:07] And the audience can be an instrument in a way, [6:10] and you're kind of playing with it. [6:11] It's almost like a horror film. [6:12] Honestly, how I edit comedy specials [6:14] is like a horror film. [6:15] There's just tension release. [6:16] And it's hard to feel that unless you're watching. [6:21] You obviously have clear ideas [6:24] about what you can do that works with audiences, [6:27] both on, like, a practical and an emotional level. [6:30] Does that create a temptation to pander? [6:33] And then also, how do you make sure you don't pander? [6:36] Mm-hmm. [6:37] Like, if there are levers I can pull [6:38] to, like, make something work. [6:40] There's a way where you could just run it up every episode. [6:43] But if you actually are trying to, like, [6:46] create something authentic, [6:47] you're going to make less money. [6:49] But the benefit of that in the long run [6:51] is that you maintain your integrity [6:53] and you maintain your authenticity, [6:54] which is, like, the most important thing for me. [6:56] Now, if I authentically feel a certain way about something [7:00] and that thing happens to be popular, [7:03] I'm not going to change my feeling on it [7:05] just because it's popular. [7:07] I am a contrarian in some ways, [7:08] but, like, I'm not going to say [7:10] that New York is not the best city in the world [7:12] just because everybody else is saying it. [7:14] They're right. [7:15] You know what I mean? [7:16] Yeah. [7:17] And oftentimes what happens is, like, [7:19] you'll have an opinion that's, like, [7:20] maybe a little bit different [7:21] and you'll be rebuked for that opinion for years. [7:24] And then people will start to come around [7:26] and then the same people that rebuked you [7:28] will start echoing those sentiments [7:29] with no accountability whatsoever. [7:32] So it's like... [7:33] Close that loop. [7:33] I'm not getting the connection. [7:34] This is like... [7:35] This is like a... [7:37] So we had, like, Bernie on the pod, [7:40] who I love. [7:41] And, you know, we were just talking about, like, [7:43] the way that he had been painted in 2016, [7:46] that there was a Bernie Bros problem, [7:48] that his supporters were racist, sexist, and bigot. [7:52] And then I asked him about it, [7:55] and he was like, yeah, I mean, [7:56] this is, you know, done by the DNC, [7:58] and, you know, they saw these amazing rallies [7:59] we were doing with all this diversity, [8:01] and it was this beautiful thing, [8:02] and they tried to make us radioactive. [8:04] I go, it's interesting. [8:05] Like, during this election, you know, [8:08] we asked all these Democrats [8:09] to come on to the podcast. [8:11] None of them came on. [8:13] And Republicans made appearances [8:15] on the podcast more. [8:17] And they called us the... [8:20] Not Bernie Bros, the Podcast Bros. [8:22] And they said, [8:23] we're sexist, bigoted, and racist. [8:24] Who is they in this example? [8:26] That's a good question. [8:27] I should give you, like, an exact answer. [8:29] I think there was, like... [8:31] Yeah, I just wonder if this is a straw man [8:32] that you've... [8:32] Yeah, that I've... [8:33] After the fact concocted, yeah. [8:34] Maybe the question I would ask is, [8:36] do you think that that was [8:36] an unfair representation? [8:38] Of you guys? [8:39] Like, there are certain media figures [8:40] labeling the manosphere [8:43] and the podcast bros that way? [8:44] I think that's right, yeah. [8:46] So you have heard that. [8:47] Yes, yeah. [8:47] So who would they be for you? [8:49] The media. [8:50] But that's what I just said. [8:51] No, you said they. [8:52] I said something specific. [8:53] You think that yours is more specific? [8:55] Yeah, journalists, commentators. [8:57] Yeah, I fear if I said the media, [8:59] you would have been who specifically. [9:01] You would have said the same thing. [9:02] I feel like your answer is just as vague. [9:03] And I'm not trying to bully you into position. [9:06] What I'm trying to expose is that [9:08] I don't think that I was, like, [9:09] pinpointed enough on my accusation. [9:11] And it is a kind of big accusation. [9:13] But I'm glad that you agree. [9:15] Yeah. [9:15] I guess what I'm... [9:16] No, it just is interesting [9:17] when people have a perception [9:18] that somehow they're being [9:19] sort of attacked or labeled. [9:21] You just... [9:21] The inclination for me is to wonder, [9:23] like, well, is that happening? [9:25] And I think in your case... [9:26] I don't think it's nefarious intent, [9:28] by the way. [9:28] I think that, like, [9:30] when you talk for two or three hours [9:31] on a podcast every week, [9:32] you can take excerpts from it [9:34] and make me look ridiculous. [9:36] You can make me look however you want. [9:38] You can make me look like the... [9:39] the sweetest, kindest, like, loving dad. [9:42] You can make me look like an absolute tyrant. [9:45] We talk for six hours total a week [9:47] on a podcast. [9:48] A 30-second excerpt, [9:50] you can do whatever you want. [9:50] And that's the cost [9:51] that we have to take on [9:53] for putting out content. [9:54] We can't complain about that. [9:55] It's more just, like, [9:57] oftentimes getting labeled a certain thing, [10:00] and then everybody kind of... [10:03] Not everybody, [10:03] but seeming like culture [10:04] maybe catching up [10:05] or coming around to it. [10:07] And there doesn't seem [10:07] to be much accountability. [10:08] Maybe we shouldn't have said [10:09] those things about those guys [10:10] for calling Biden old [10:11] now that we're all saying [10:13] that we covered up the fact [10:14] that he maybe wasn't [10:16] actually the president. [10:17] So then I'm in this situation [10:18] where I'm like, [10:19] I shouldn't make a big deal [10:20] about this because that's selfish. [10:22] What I should do is just be like, [10:23] hey, it's cool [10:24] that we're all agreeing on something [10:25] and I shouldn't punish you [10:26] for agreeing. [10:27] You know, that would be, [10:28] like, the mature thing. [10:30] You know, it's funny. [10:31] I have this long list of questions [10:33] that I have structured [10:34] in such a way [10:35] as to try and, like, [10:35] get to the more provocative material [10:37] in, like, an incremental way. [10:40] But I feel like [10:40] we could just get into things with you [10:42] and I wouldn't have to do [10:43] that kind of work. [10:43] You don't have to do whatever. [10:44] Also, I love when you're self-reflective [10:46] in your interviews. [10:46] So, yes, you, like, [10:48] ruminating on what you're feeling [10:49] in the moment is good. [10:50] Uh, all right. [10:50] Thank you. [10:51] Feelings are hard for me, man. [10:52] You just know what you're feeling [10:53] every second of the day. [10:55] Yeah, pretty much. [10:56] Why are they hard for you? [10:57] You don't seem like someone [10:58] for whom feelings are hard. [10:59] No, I'm very sensitive. [11:01] But, uh... [11:01] Articulating them in the moment? [11:02] No, no, no. [11:03] It's like understanding [11:04] the type of feeling I have. [11:06] This is something I'm learning [11:07] with, like, therapy and shit, [11:08] where it's like, [11:10] I'm very used to be like, [11:11] you did this thing to me. [11:13] And it doesn't matter. [11:14] That doesn't matter what you did [11:15] because it might not even be [11:16] your intention to do that thing. [11:17] But if I say, [11:19] I feel rejected [11:20] by you saying that, [11:22] now you're like, [11:23] oh, shit, [11:23] I didn't want to make you feel rejected. [11:26] But I have to understand [11:27] the feeling of rejection [11:28] more than the feeling of justice. [11:30] I'm justice-oriented. [11:32] Like, if I see somebody [11:33] cut Felice in line [11:34] and I don't even know Felice, [11:36] I'll tap them on the shoulder [11:37] and be like, [11:38] no, the line's back here. [11:38] I'm crazy like that. [11:40] Like, justice is important, [11:41] even if it has nothing [11:42] to do with me. [11:43] You know what I mean? [11:44] I do. [11:44] So, uh... [11:46] All right, good, good. [11:46] Go, go, go. [11:47] Just ask. [11:49] No prep. [11:50] Nothing. [11:50] Let's go. [11:50] So, you said [11:51] you asked Democrats [11:53] to be on the podcast. [11:54] Presumably, we're talking about, [11:55] like, last fall [11:56] in the run-up to the election. [11:58] So, who did you ask? [11:58] And who said... [11:59] Who did judge? [12:00] Waltz, Kamala. [12:02] I mean, we had Mark Cuban, [12:03] who was a surrogate [12:04] for the Dems, on. [12:05] And then we asked Mark, [12:07] we're like, [12:07] dude, we're really trying [12:08] to, like, balance it. [12:08] We like to hear from all voices. [12:10] Like, the podcast, [12:10] like, is all voices. [12:12] Like, that's the idea [12:13] of, like, the ethos [12:14] is our friend group. [12:15] We have all these [12:16] different perspectives, [12:17] but we're still friends. [12:18] And we still argue [12:19] about these things. [12:19] And they just... [12:21] Whatever. [12:21] It doesn't matter. [12:23] And, yeah, just none of them... [12:25] And more, I'm sure. [12:26] But Kamala, for sure. [12:28] And then her team just lies. [12:29] Just blatantly lies. [12:30] About what? [12:30] About us reaching out. [12:32] They say they didn't? [12:33] Yeah. [12:33] And it's just wild. [12:34] It's wild to blatantly lie [12:36] when not only did I reach out, [12:39] Sharma, who's, like, [12:40] working with them, [12:41] reached out. [12:42] Mark Cuban, who's a surrogate, [12:43] reached out on our behalf. [12:45] And we reach out. [12:46] And they just blatantly lie. [12:47] And then when people [12:48] will write articles about it, [12:49] they will lie by telling the truth. [12:53] Meaning, they'll say, like, [12:55] flagrant, or Andrew says [12:56] he reached out to Kamala, [12:57] but we reached out [12:58] to the Kamala people, [13:00] and they said [13:01] that that never happened. [13:04] So what is the reader [13:05] supposed to interpret that as? [13:08] It's an evasion. [13:09] And I think it's an indictment on me, [13:10] because it's almost like [13:11] calling me a liar. [13:12] Yes, this is the justice-oriented [13:14] part of you that's coming out right now. [13:16] But so you had this interest [13:17] in having... [13:18] Bernie as well. [13:19] Obama as well. [13:21] Clinton's, we got close. [13:22] I want a bill on. [13:23] In having Democrats on. [13:25] And it didn't happen [13:26] in the fall of 2024. [13:28] This year, [13:29] in the past couple of months, [13:30] you've had Bernie. [13:31] You've had Buttigieg. [13:32] And so the lag between [13:34] actually having Democrats on [13:36] in this space of all voices [13:38] and wanting to have them on, [13:40] you're saying is solely because [13:41] the Democrats wouldn't come on. [13:43] Yeah. [13:43] And so why are they doing it now? [13:45] Why do you think? [13:46] I want to hear you say it. [13:47] Well, what is your feeling? [13:49] Well, because they decided [13:50] it's advantageous for them. [13:52] And then before, [13:53] they probably thought [13:54] that they didn't need it. [13:56] Also, I wouldn't say [13:57] that they holistically decided [13:59] that it was advantageous for them, [14:00] because I think the party [14:01] is quite fractured. [14:02] There's the Bernie side of the party, [14:03] and then there's probably [14:05] the front-runner now [14:05] being like Buttigieg [14:06] side of the party. [14:08] And I think Buttigieg comes on [14:09] and has this bigger interview [14:10] of his career, [14:11] and then all of a sudden, [14:13] the Bernie side is like, [14:14] yeah, we'd love to come on. [14:15] I also think like [14:16] having Buttigieg come on [14:17] like made it maybe feel safe, [14:20] you know? [14:21] For others. [14:21] Yeah, we're not a gotcha pod. [14:24] If we're asking you to come on [14:25] it's because we're interested in you. [14:26] We're interested in like [14:26] the decisions you want to make [14:28] and how it's going to affect, [14:29] you know, Americans. [14:30] That's like really important to me. [14:32] So I was awesome having Pete on. [14:34] Yeah, I thought he was great. [14:35] Like smart guy. [14:36] Like doesn't like talk down [14:38] or finger wag. [14:39] You know, it's a very rare thing [14:41] now in politics, [14:42] but he'll meet you where you are. [14:43] And then after meeting you [14:46] where you are [14:46] and disarming you [14:47] and making you not feel [14:48] like you're stupid [14:49] for disagreeing, [14:50] then he'll try to show you his side [14:51] and you're so much more willing [14:53] to indulge in it. [14:55] And so I think [14:56] the way you just put it [14:57] was that you think [14:58] it's important for Americans [15:00] to have politicians on [15:01] and to, [15:02] or you want to meet them [15:03] for us too. [15:04] I want to, [15:05] but yeah. [15:06] So let's take the example [15:06] of your interview [15:07] with Donald Trump. [15:09] I know that you're not a journalist. [15:12] Correct. [15:12] But am I not? [15:14] I might be the foremost [15:16] political journalist. [15:17] You know, it's possible. [15:18] It's possible. [15:19] Like what makes somebody that? [15:21] It's such a. [15:22] I don't know that it's your job [15:25] in the way that it would be [15:26] a journalist job [15:26] to ask particular questions [15:28] of political figures. [15:30] But in your interview [15:31] with Donald Trump, [15:32] do you feel like [15:34] you did the necessary work [15:37] of asking him [15:39] difficult questions? [15:41] Do you think that's necessary? [15:42] Yes. [15:43] I will answer in a second, [15:45] but like why is it? [15:47] Oh, well that's assuming [15:48] that I didn't ask [15:48] the difficult questions. [15:50] So I don't know like [15:51] what you think the goal [15:53] of journalism is specifically. [15:55] Is it to ask the things [15:57] you're curious about? [15:59] Do you have a responsibility [16:00] for your audience [16:01] within the New York Times? [16:03] Do you have a responsibility [16:04] for the New York Times audience? [16:07] Do you have a responsibility [16:08] for casual people [16:09] that sometimes, [16:10] like how many people [16:12] are you responsible for? [16:13] Are you responsible [16:14] for people in Dubai, [16:16] China, Japan? [16:17] They have, [16:17] might have certain curiosities [16:19] that you didn't address. [16:20] Like at one point [16:22] you're going to let somebody down. [16:24] So what I'd like to see more [16:25] is people asking the questions [16:27] that they are curious [16:29] about themselves [16:30] instead of trying to pander [16:33] to what their audience [16:35] is curious about. [16:38] And for me, [16:39] with the Trump interview, [16:40] I had three things [16:41] I wanted to ask him about. [16:43] And I asked him those things. [16:44] And that's, [16:45] that's what I felt [16:46] was responsible. [16:46] And for people [16:47] who didn't see it, [16:47] what were those three things? [16:48] Uh, protecting IVF. [16:50] My wife and I [16:50] had a baby through IVF [16:52] and it was really important [16:53] to me that he would [16:54] do something to [16:55] make sure that [16:56] that was protected, [16:57] especially with [16:58] the abortion bans. [16:58] And he specifically said [17:01] that he would [17:02] and the federal government [17:03] would make sure [17:03] that it was protected. [17:04] Let's see if that actually happens. [17:05] If there's federal, [17:06] you know, [17:06] support for people [17:07] that are going through it, [17:08] like that was crucial for me. [17:10] For me, [17:11] it was, [17:11] you know, [17:11] empathy for illegals [17:14] that are here [17:15] that are not breaking the law [17:17] that have been working here [17:18] in a pathway to citizenship, [17:19] which it doesn't look like [17:21] has been happening. [17:22] This is very, [17:23] like disheartening for me [17:24] and to the foreign wars. [17:26] I think it's really hard [17:27] for Americans [17:27] specifically to be struggling so much. [17:30] And then the perception [17:32] of all this money [17:32] leaving the country [17:33] to go fight these wars [17:34] in places that we'll never go visit. [17:36] I think that's hard for Americans, [17:37] like really difficult. [17:39] And you start to feel like [17:40] you're left out. [17:42] So yeah, [17:42] those are the three things [17:43] that I really wanted [17:44] to talk to you about. [17:45] And I did. [17:47] But what's interesting [17:47] about that interview [17:48] is that the second it came out, [17:50] the Kamala campaign [17:51] and the Trump campaign [17:52] were posting the same clips [17:53] of the interview. [17:54] It was like lauded [17:55] by like both parties. [17:56] It was really interesting. [17:57] And it's really just [17:59] exposes that like, [18:00] you know, [18:01] life's a Rorschach test. [18:03] You know, [18:03] you had these three things [18:04] you wanted to ask [18:05] Donald Trump. [18:06] And that also means [18:08] you didn't ask about, [18:10] you didn't really ask [18:11] that much about [18:12] economic policy, right? [18:13] Which for like [18:14] a Bernie supporter, [18:16] I thought like, [18:16] oh, that's weird [18:17] that I think you told Bernie [18:18] it broke your heart [18:19] when Bernie endorsed [18:20] Hillary Clinton in 2016. [18:22] I thought, [18:22] oh, it's strange [18:23] that he's not asking [18:23] Donald Trump about [18:25] more pointed questions [18:26] about economics. [18:27] What did I ask Bernie [18:28] about economics? [18:29] Well, you guys talked [18:30] a lot about [18:31] economic inequality. [18:33] But what about policy? [18:35] It's an issue [18:35] that matters to you. [18:37] What would you like me to ask? [18:39] I don't know [18:40] the specific question. [18:41] The question is about [18:42] specifics are important. [18:43] The question is about [18:43] the you're making [18:44] an accusation [18:45] that I didn't ask something, [18:46] but you don't have [18:47] the thing that [18:47] you would have [18:48] liked me to ask. [18:50] So here's a good moment [18:51] for accountability. [18:51] Do you think it was fair [18:53] to present that [18:54] economic policy question [18:55] to me about Trump [18:56] and not really knowing [18:57] what you're talking about? [19:01] Yes. [19:01] I asked you a question. [19:03] That's where it feels gotcha. [19:05] It doesn't feel gotcha. [19:06] I'm sorry. [19:06] I can't tell you [19:07] how you feel. [19:07] This is good. [19:08] We're both. [19:09] Oh, this is good. [19:09] Therapy's good. [19:10] This is good. [19:11] Okay. [19:11] This is, this is, [19:12] I love, [19:13] that was awesome. [19:14] Yeah. [19:14] But that's where [19:15] I felt like it was gotcha. [19:17] I don't, I don't know [19:17] if that's your intent [19:18] right there at all. [19:19] I can't put anything [19:20] on intent. [19:21] But I felt gotcha [19:22] because I asked you [19:23] like what would you [19:23] have liked me [19:24] and you didn't [19:25] have an example [19:25] and then you brought [19:26] up the Bernie [19:27] as a thing to [19:28] add more weight [19:29] to your thing [19:29] and then there [19:30] wasn't any combo [19:31] about that. [19:31] In that moment [19:32] what I felt like is [19:33] oh, he's trying [19:34] to point me out [19:35] as doing something [19:36] inadequate in this interview [19:38] but the only goal [19:39] of his question [19:39] was to expose [19:41] inadequacy [19:41] not to actually [19:43] learn something. [19:44] So to me [19:45] that's like, [19:45] that felt like gotcha. [19:47] Actually, gotcha [19:47] is not a feeling. [19:49] Gotcha is not a feeling. [19:49] It puts the blame on you. [19:50] So that's what I was [19:51] talking about feelings. [19:52] I got to get better at. [19:53] I felt, I don't know. [19:56] I'll figure it out. [19:57] I'll talk to my therapist [19:58] about it. [19:59] I'm working on it, David. [20:00] Wait, let me try [20:00] and come up [20:01] with a different one [20:01] than that. [20:03] So you and your wife, [20:05] you went through [20:06] the IVF process [20:07] to have your child [20:07] and that's why IVF [20:09] was an important subject [20:10] for you to bring up [20:11] with Donald Trump. [20:13] And then when you're [20:13] having that conversation [20:14] with him, [20:16] you know, you said, [20:17] I'm paraphrasing, [20:17] I'm not going to get [20:18] it exactly right, [20:18] but something like, [20:19] I think it's important [20:21] for women moderates [20:22] to hear that. [20:24] I don't recall [20:25] saying that. [20:26] Oh, was I saying like [20:28] women who might be [20:29] on the fence [20:30] about who you are [20:31] as like a person [20:32] and like how much [20:33] you care about [20:34] their bodies [20:36] and their ability [20:36] to make choices [20:37] with their bodies? [20:38] Right. [20:38] But then this is not. [20:40] How did it make you feel? [20:42] Do you think it was like [20:43] trying to like promote him [20:44] or something like that [20:45] to them? [20:45] Uh, it made me feel [20:47] confused because there [20:50] was then also no mention [20:52] or suggestion of the fact [20:54] that Donald Trump was [20:57] credibly accused of groping [20:59] a bunch of women [21:00] or that he was found [21:02] liable in a civil suit [21:04] for sexual abuse. [21:06] Why was like one thing [21:08] important to hear [21:09] and not another? [21:10] That's an example [21:11] where I thought like, [21:11] oh, this, [21:12] something about the [21:13] balance or frame here [21:14] feels strange to me. [21:15] Well, I think it's [21:16] a fair question. [21:17] The reaction I would have [21:18] is like, [21:19] what is less known? [21:20] I don't think that [21:21] there's a person on the [21:21] planet that doesn't know [21:22] that Donald Trump was like [21:24] you could grab him [21:24] by the pussy. [21:25] I don't think there's [21:25] a person on the planet [21:26] that doesn't know [21:26] about the civil suit. [21:28] People have done [21:28] a pretty good job [21:29] of getting that [21:29] information out there. [21:31] What people might not know [21:32] is that he really wants [21:33] to fight to protect IVF. [21:35] And that might be [21:36] really important [21:36] for a woman who goes, [21:39] yeah, I know [21:39] all this horrible stuff [21:40] that this guy [21:41] has been accused of [21:42] or convicted of doing, [21:43] but the most important [21:44] decision for me right now [21:46] is I want to have a family [21:47] and I want assistance [21:48] in that [21:48] and I want support in that. [21:49] And unfortunately, [21:50] in elections, [21:51] we look past [21:52] certain like transgressions [21:55] because there are [21:55] certain things [21:56] that are more important [21:57] to us. [21:57] So if you're a trans person, [21:58] I totally understand [21:59] if you're like, [21:59] I can't vote for that guy. [22:01] It doesn't look like [22:01] he's going to allow me [22:02] to live the life [22:03] that I want to live [22:03] and live that life freely. [22:05] They, she or he [22:06] has to go [22:06] to the other option [22:07] because that's the one thing [22:09] that's most important [22:10] to their life. [22:11] So I think by your standard, [22:14] you wish that I brought up [22:15] the things that he had done [22:16] in referencing that? [22:18] To make the conversation [22:19] feel more balanced. [22:20] To make it feel more balanced. [22:22] Okay. [22:22] Yeah, I don't think [22:22] that that's unfair. [22:24] I guess what I would say [22:25] is that like, [22:27] as an interviewer, [22:28] I would be like, [22:29] am I bringing that up [22:30] for the person [22:31] that hates Trump [22:32] so that they're disarmed? [22:34] And then am I doing [22:35] this interview [22:36] for the audience, [22:37] not for what I authentically [22:39] want to ask them? [22:40] Like, there's even a part [22:41] of me that wonders [22:42] as you ask me [22:42] his questions. [22:43] Like, do you feel [22:43] like you have to [22:44] put some pressure [22:45] on me with the Trump thing [22:46] because your audience [22:47] might be like, [22:48] why didn't you ask him [22:49] about having Trump on? [22:50] Or do you genuinely [22:51] want to do it? [22:52] I think in this instance, [22:53] it's both. [22:54] Yeah, and that's [22:55] an honest, fair question. [22:56] And like, [22:57] I go through that too [22:58] where I'm like, [22:58] what do I really [22:59] want to know? [23:00] What do I really [23:01] want to ask this person? [23:02] And what do I feel [23:05] like I should [23:05] or else I'll be [23:06] criticized for not, [23:07] like, when I had Bernie on, [23:08] like, should I have [23:09] asked him about [23:10] taking the private jets? [23:11] Should I have asked him [23:12] about having three houses? [23:13] Like, I saw that. [23:15] And I'm not equating this [23:16] to, like, Donald Trump [23:17] being, like, convicted [23:18] of things. [23:19] But still, like, [23:20] I could have brought [23:21] those things up [23:22] and appeased certain people [23:24] that are definitely [23:25] in my audience. [23:26] But the cost of that is, [23:28] am I doing it [23:29] just to appease them, [23:30] one, [23:31] and does it make him [23:32] clam up [23:33] and then not open up [23:34] about these other things [23:35] that I really want to know? [23:37] Do I lose my authenticity [23:38] to things that I'm [23:39] really curious about [23:39] and building that rapport [23:40] so we can have this [23:41] honest, open conversation [23:42] to appease what somebody [23:44] who already fucking hates [23:45] Bernie [23:46] and what he stands for? [23:48] And that's the thing [23:48] that, like, [23:49] you just got to decide [23:50] as a interviewer. [23:51] When you're thinking about [23:52] what is or isn't [23:54] authentic for you, [23:56] do you find that you have [23:57] moments during interviews [23:59] or when you're on [24:00] other people's podcasts [24:01] where you're, like, [24:03] consciously in the moment [24:04] choosing to say [24:05] or not say something [24:07] based on [24:08] whether it would be [24:10] authentic for you to say? [24:12] I don't, [24:12] I need to think on it. [24:14] I don't think I'm going, [24:16] is this authentic? [24:18] I think I'm going, [24:19] is this not? [24:22] Because my knee-jerk feeling [24:23] about the world, [24:24] I'll just say, [24:25] I can kind of, like, [24:26] I have opinions about [24:27] whatever. [24:28] You ask me [24:29] and I can give it to you. [24:30] But if I chew on it [24:32] a little bit, [24:32] I might actually disagree [24:33] with that knee-jerk thing [24:34] that I felt. [24:35] But I think what I've noticed [24:38] through stand-up [24:39] and I've even noticed [24:40] through podcasting [24:41] is that, like, [24:43] if you say the thing [24:44] that you're feeling [24:45] in the moment [24:46] or if you ask the question [24:47] you're curious about, [24:49] it always goes well. [24:51] It might be [24:52] the most absurd thing. [24:53] If somebody's missing [24:54] an arm in the front row [24:55] and you're just like, [24:58] where'd it go? [24:59] You know? [24:59] Like, everybody else [25:01] that's seeing it [25:01] is also thinking [25:02] that same thing [25:03] and there's this [25:04] beautiful catharsis. [25:05] And that's, I guess, [25:06] what I mean about authenticity. [25:07] It doesn't mean it's right. [25:08] My authentic feeling [25:09] isn't necessarily [25:10] like the right thing [25:11] in a moment, [25:12] but it is true. [25:14] And I can live [25:15] with criticism [25:15] for the thing [25:17] that I believe in [25:18] and the thing [25:19] that I feel like [25:19] is true to me. [25:21] Being criticized [25:22] for the thing [25:23] that is fraudulent to you [25:24] is like a double whammy. [25:26] It's the worst. [25:27] You were fake [25:28] and you were rejected. [25:30] Reject me for who I am? [25:31] That's fine. [25:33] Here's something I am, [25:35] this falls under the category [25:36] of things I am [25:37] legitimately curious about. [25:38] Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. [25:39] So in your... [25:40] The other stuff, [25:41] no curiosities. [25:42] So in your stand-up [25:44] and on the podcast [25:46] or appearances [25:47] on other podcasts, [25:48] there are some, [25:49] you'd call them slurs [25:51] that you use. [25:52] Sure, sure. [25:53] And I'm thinking [25:54] of one in particular, [25:56] you know, [25:56] starts with R, [25:57] commonly used [25:58] to describe [25:58] intellectually disabled people. [26:02] So you use that, [26:03] I think, [26:04] in the first minute [26:04] of infamous, [26:06] you use a derogatory term [26:07] for Mexicans. [26:08] Which ones? [26:09] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [26:11] But to the Mexican. [26:13] Right, yeah, yeah. [26:14] They're in on it. [26:15] You know, [26:16] there are other ones you use. [26:17] But then there are other... [26:18] It's in a complement. [26:19] I think it's important [26:20] to, like, contextually... [26:21] Oh, yes. [26:21] I'd also like to say [26:22] the thing that is, [26:23] I think, [26:24] important to note [26:25] with your stuff [26:26] is that [26:26] it does never feel [26:28] mean-spirited. [26:29] But then, [26:29] there are other [26:30] derogatory terms [26:31] that you don't [26:32] go near. [26:33] Like which? [26:34] Like, you know, [26:35] I've never heard you [26:36] use a derogatory word [26:37] for a Jewish person. [26:38] Really? [26:39] I blame Jews [26:40] for homosexuality [26:41] in the latest special. [26:42] Yeah, but that's still... [26:43] No, no, no, homophobia. [26:44] But you don't use [26:45] the derogatory word... [26:46] Which one are you talking about? [26:46] The K one? [26:47] K one? [26:48] Yeah, that would be the one. [26:49] Yeah. [26:49] That would be the one. [26:49] But how do you decide [26:50] which ones feel okay [26:52] and which ones don't? [26:53] We'll call them, [26:53] like, the small hats. [26:56] But where are your... [26:56] Where's the line? [26:57] Where are your lines [26:58] for language? [26:58] Yeah. [26:58] Yeah, the N word I don't do. [27:00] Yeah, the K word [27:01] I don't really do. [27:04] Why certain ones [27:05] and why not other ones? [27:07] That's a good question. [27:08] If we accept [27:09] they're all derogatory. [27:10] I don't accept that. [27:11] No. [27:11] This is the thing. [27:12] Like, I think in reality [27:13] people are trying [27:14] to protect people. [27:16] And the protection [27:16] of people I think [27:18] is like a beautiful [27:18] benevolent thing. [27:19] And I think it's a great thing [27:20] to endeavor to do. [27:21] But sometimes it goes [27:23] to the point where [27:24] we're making words harmful [27:26] that aren't harmful. [27:27] So, for example, [27:29] like Latinx, [27:31] which I'm sure [27:31] you've heard of this term. [27:33] Latinx, are you familiar with it? [27:34] Yeah. [27:35] Okay, what do you think [27:35] of that term? [27:37] What do I think of it? [27:38] Yeah. [27:39] That's a hard question. [27:40] What do I think of the term? [27:42] To me it feels like... [27:43] Have you heard [27:43] of a fire retardant? [27:45] Yeah. [27:45] How do you feel [27:46] about that word? [27:46] The fire retardant? [27:47] Retardant in that context [27:48] means to slow something down. [27:50] Yeah. [27:50] Yeah. [27:51] And should we make [27:52] a different word for that? [27:53] But a fire retardant [27:55] is not a human being. [27:56] No, but the root word [27:57] Yeah. [27:58] has a scientific definition [27:59] that we have then [28:01] labeled an emotional, [28:03] painful, pejorative [28:04] that we could also [28:07] remove that label. [28:08] I think that it's mainly [28:10] labeled by people [28:11] who are not [28:11] dealing with mental illness. [28:13] I think it's people [28:14] who want to, [28:14] often like parents, [28:15] who want to protect people [28:17] who have these [28:18] mental disabilities. [28:19] So, we're doing this thing [28:20] which is beautiful [28:21] at its core, [28:22] which is to protect [28:23] the people who may not [28:24] be able to protect themselves. [28:25] But we don't truly know [28:27] if they are hurt by that. [28:29] Now, if a parent ever said, [28:31] hey, that word hurts me [28:32] and I want you to say it, [28:33] I'm never going to say it [28:33] in front of them. [28:34] I don't want to hurt you. [28:35] That's not my goal. [28:36] But if they're like, [28:37] and I don't want you [28:37] to ever say it again [28:38] in your life, [28:39] then I'm like, [28:40] that's not going to happen. [28:41] I'll never say it around you [28:42] because I just don't want [28:42] to hurt you. [28:43] I want to have fun [28:43] and I want you to enjoy. [28:45] But you can't dictate [28:46] what I do or don't say. [28:48] But the reality is like, [28:49] there's always going to be [28:50] somebody offended by [28:51] a word or opinion [28:53] or whatever you say. [28:54] So, at a certain point in time, [28:55] like, what do you do? [28:56] You just curtail [28:57] how you speak completely [28:59] so that you don't [28:59] offend people? [29:00] Or do you just have [29:02] your constitution [29:02] and understand [29:03] who you are as a person [29:04] and you go on living life [29:06] and accept the blowback [29:07] that comes with that? [29:08] You know what's just [29:09] straight about that word [29:10] in particular [29:10] where I saw Joe Rogan [29:12] said something like [29:13] the lack of inhibition [29:15] about using that word [29:15] is somehow a cultural victory? [29:17] I need to know [29:18] the context of that conversation. [29:21] What I would presume [29:21] it's this idea [29:22] that we're no longer [29:23] going to be policing [29:25] language as strictly [29:26] as we had maybe [29:27] in like the last [29:28] five or six years [29:28] and that we're going [29:29] to understand [29:30] intention a little bit more [29:32] and we're not going to... [29:33] I think there are people [29:34] that like have great intentions [29:35] and they're really trying [29:36] to protect communities [29:37] and I think there are people [29:38] that also have like [29:39] bad intentions [29:40] and they're just trying [29:40] to bludgeon people [29:42] with criticism [29:43] and it's a power move [29:46] and I've like seen it happen. [29:47] Like, this person [29:48] said this on a podcast. [29:49] We are going to email [29:50] every one of their sponsors [29:52] and ask those sponsors [29:53] to drop them. [29:54] Now, that's interesting. [29:57] That seems like that person [29:58] is trying to exert [29:59] an immense amount of power [30:01] from a position [30:02] that maybe they don't [30:03] normally have that [30:04] in their life [30:05] and I think that's [30:07] a little bit gross. [30:08] So, just thinking [30:09] about Joe Rogan [30:10] is now making me think [30:11] of this idea [30:12] that there's like [30:13] a manosphere podcast world [30:16] that appeals to young men [30:19] in particular [30:20] and it has a lot to do [30:22] with, you know, [30:23] ideas of masculinity [30:24] and even though [30:25] none of these shows [30:26] and when I say these shows [30:28] I'm thinking of [30:29] Flagrant or Theophane [30:30] or Joe Rogan's show [30:31] where these shows [30:32] are certainly not seen [30:33] as progressive. [30:34] Why do you think [30:35] that there is [30:36] some idea [30:37] of masculinity [30:39] that progressives [30:41] or the left [30:42] has not been able [30:43] to talk to? [30:44] Um, why do you think? [30:48] You know, Andrew, [30:52] it's very hard for me [30:54] to come up with answers [30:55] to questions like that [30:57] because... [30:57] It's a tough question. [31:00] I think you have [31:00] a thoughtful answer. [31:02] I think there are [31:03] less complicated [31:05] ideas of masculinity [31:06] that are often [31:08] put forward [31:09] on those kinds of shows [31:11] that are more approachable [31:13] and maybe more familiar [31:14] to a lot of men [31:15] and so it's an easier thing [31:16] to latch onto. [31:17] They're like, [31:18] oh yeah, I like saying [31:20] off-color shit [31:21] with my buddies, [31:22] you know, or like... [31:23] Do you like saying [31:23] off-color shit [31:24] with your buddies? [31:26] Yeah. [31:26] You do. [31:27] It was fun. [31:27] And it doesn't define [31:28] you as a person. [31:29] No. [31:29] And you feel comfortable [31:30] saying it with your buddies [31:31] because they know [31:32] who you are. [31:33] But I just, [31:34] I got away from my question. [31:35] Why do you think [31:36] the left has had [31:38] a hard time reaching? [31:38] I don't think it's that. [31:39] I think it's the nature [31:41] of media a little bit. [31:43] You know, [31:43] when Joe is bringing [31:44] somebody on, [31:45] he's only bringing them on [31:46] to ask him things [31:47] that he's curious about. [31:48] He's not going, [31:49] I have to ask him [31:50] these questions [31:51] to make sure [31:52] the interview is balanced [31:54] so that my audience [31:55] doesn't think [31:55] that I was doing [31:56] a puff beat, whatever. [31:57] So what I think [31:58] is people prefer [31:59] in general [32:00] more genuine conversations, [32:03] which is more [32:05] curiosity-based conversations, [32:07] instead of, [32:08] I already know [32:09] how I feel about you [32:10] and I'm going to prove [32:12] to my audience [32:13] that I'm right [32:14] the way I feel about you. [32:15] And I think [32:15] what happens to that [32:16] is, yeah, [32:17] your audience [32:17] that agrees with you [32:18] will like it, [32:19] but you can't [32:19] bring everybody in. [32:21] And so I think [32:22] this is one part of it. [32:24] I also think that [32:25] the ability to kind of [32:26] like speak freely [32:27] how you said before, [32:28] what was it, [32:29] when you're with your friends, [32:30] you just kind of [32:30] bussing balls, [32:31] whatever the term is, [32:32] which we all do, [32:33] and saying maybe [32:34] some of those [32:34] no-no words [32:35] that we don't say here [32:37] and we, you know, [32:38] say we shouldn't say, [32:39] but once we're with [32:39] our friends, [32:40] all of a sudden [32:40] they're fine to say. [32:42] So once you see [32:43] those conversations [32:45] on a podcast [32:45] that way more [32:47] similarly reflect [32:48] your life. [32:49] Yeah. [32:50] And I'm not trying [32:50] to push a specific agenda. [32:52] Now that you could [32:53] make the argument [32:54] that agendas [32:54] are being pushed, [32:55] by the way, [32:56] so I would even [32:56] like caveat that thing. [32:58] But, um, [32:59] but yeah, [32:59] to me it's not surprising. [33:00] And it happens [33:01] on girl podcasts. [33:02] They go fucking crazy, [33:04] these girl podcasts [33:04] as well. [33:05] So it's not just, [33:06] oh, Manosphere. [33:08] There is immense curiosity [33:10] in like authentic, [33:11] genuine things. [33:12] The New York Times [33:13] is never going to do [33:13] a get ready with me video. [33:15] I'm sure someone [33:16] in this building [33:17] has put thought into it. [33:18] They pitched it, [33:18] but you guys are probably [33:19] like that's beneath us. [33:20] We don't get ready. [33:20] I don't know. [33:21] It's like, [33:21] well, you better fucking [33:22] get ready. [33:23] Because these girls [33:24] are doing it on TikTok [33:24] and they're getting [33:25] millions of people to watch. [33:26] So I think there's [33:28] just been a shift [33:28] towards more relatability. [33:30] And I think that guys [33:31] are definitely feeling [33:32] more relatability [33:33] on the guy pods. [33:35] Yeah. [33:36] And then I think [33:36] the girls are feeling [33:37] more relatability [33:38] on the girl pods. [33:40] So to me, [33:41] it's just corporate media [33:43] needs to, [33:44] and I feel like [33:45] it's already happening. [33:46] Like this conversation [33:46] is like a version of that [33:48] where it's like [33:48] they just need to make [33:49] the adjustment [33:50] to the new marketplace. [33:52] And before when it's, [33:53] you know, [33:53] the Times is competing [33:54] with who else, [33:56] CBS or The Post [33:57] or these types of things. [33:57] Like you're all competing [33:58] within the same rules. [34:01] And then podcasts came in [34:02] and threw out the rules. [34:03] Say whatever curse words [34:04] you want, [34:04] whatever no-no words [34:05] you want. [34:06] Like actually talk [34:07] like you're with your friends. [34:09] Well, yeah, [34:09] that sounds way better. [34:09] You know, [34:10] it's actually interesting [34:10] to hear you put it like that [34:12] where you're sort of [34:12] we're all working [34:13] under the same rules [34:14] because it actually, [34:15] for me, [34:16] makes a conversation [34:16] like this more difficult [34:17] because there are like [34:19] our rules and expectations [34:20] that... [34:21] Yeah. [34:21] What are some? [34:22] I'd love to know. [34:23] Like what is, [34:24] what do you feel [34:24] encumbered by? [34:26] The most obvious one [34:27] would be like language rules, [34:28] you know, [34:29] certain words. [34:30] And I don't just mean [34:31] like derogatory words [34:32] or there's even just [34:33] sort of like an implicit [34:34] style of conversation [34:36] that I feel like [34:38] I'm supposed to have [34:39] that is actually like [34:41] inhibiting a little bit [34:42] in a conversation with you. [34:43] And I'm feeling that [34:44] in this conversation [34:45] because it's like, [34:46] oh, there's ways [34:46] to talk with you [34:47] that I think are actually [34:49] made more difficult [34:50] because it's like, [34:51] I know there's sort of [34:52] a little voice [34:53] on my shoulder. [34:53] First of all, [34:54] this is another example [34:55] of one of the things [34:56] Don't say it again. [34:57] Don't say it again. [34:57] Do you not like compliments? [34:58] It just feels like... [35:00] Uncomfortable for you? [35:01] I don't like it. [35:01] Why? [35:02] You're so in touch [35:03] with your feelings. [35:04] I'm like so envious. [35:06] It's, I think, [35:07] a unique thing [35:07] that like it makes me [35:08] want to listen [35:09] to your content more. [35:10] It's like you're reacting [35:10] in real time to [35:11] you hate compliments. [35:14] What is that about? [35:16] But the thing [35:17] I wanted to say was, [35:18] you know, [35:18] it's interesting this idea [35:19] of shift rightward [35:22] for conservative young men [35:23] and somehow like [35:23] the manosphere [35:24] is driving that. [35:26] I wouldn't agree [35:26] shift rightward. [35:27] What I would say [35:28] that this is a lot more [35:30] of a, [35:31] and you asked specifically [35:31] why maybe men [35:32] are kind of drawn [35:33] in this direction. [35:34] And keep in mind, [35:35] like all of us, [35:36] I can't, [35:36] I don't know about Theo, [35:37] but like Joe's Democrat [35:38] his whole life, [35:39] my Democrat my whole life, [35:40] like registered Democrat. [35:42] Yeah. [35:42] So you voted for Trump. [35:43] I voted for Trump. [35:44] Yeah, yeah. [35:44] But to be honest, [35:45] my vote was more like [35:46] I voted against [35:47] a Democratic institution. [35:49] And I feel like [35:50] it was like stripping [35:50] the Democratic process [35:52] from his constituents. [35:53] Like I didn't like [35:54] the way things were going. [35:55] I thought people were hurting. [35:56] They didn't like [35:57] the way things were going. [35:58] And Kamala was literally [35:59] just going, [35:59] yeah, [35:59] we're going to keep doing that. [36:01] You can't be surprised [36:02] if you go, [36:03] yeah, [36:04] I thought Joe did a great job [36:05] and we're going to keep [36:05] on doing that [36:06] if people are upset [36:07] and they decide [36:07] to vote in a different direction. [36:09] So I think that like [36:11] the first reaction is, [36:13] okay, [36:13] we didn't do anything wrong. [36:14] It was just podcast bros. [36:16] That's what switched the election. [36:17] And now I think [36:17] they're starting to realize, [36:18] oh, wow, [36:19] maybe there's some policy things [36:20] that people were unhappy with [36:22] and we have to change that. [36:23] And I think like [36:24] the most glaring example [36:25] is that there were unions [36:27] that did not endorse Kamala. [36:31] They had not endorsed [36:32] the Democratic Party. [36:34] And then there were some unions [36:35] that endorsed Trump. [36:37] If Democrats cannot win [36:39] the votes of union workers, [36:43] who are they for? [36:44] Like, [36:46] to me, [36:47] that says everything. [36:48] You're worried about podcasts. [36:49] The unions are going, [36:51] we're going to go [36:52] with the Republican guys [36:52] who are trying [36:53] to break up unions. [36:55] I think what happened is [36:58] the Democrats, [36:59] I think, [37:00] were, [37:00] and I hate to make this [37:01] so like Democrat, [37:01] Republican, [37:01] because it's not all Democrats, [37:03] by the way. [37:03] I think that there are [37:04] some Democrats [37:04] that are quite critical of this. [37:06] You've seen, [37:06] obviously, [37:06] Bernie. [37:07] You see AOC. [37:08] Like, [37:08] there's, [37:08] but I think what happens [37:09] is the Democrats [37:10] are like tied [37:11] to the same corporations [37:12] that are funding Republicans. [37:13] And they can't actually [37:15] push back [37:16] against those corporations [37:17] because they get [37:18] so much funding from them. [37:19] And in order [37:20] to really make it [37:21] a class war, [37:22] which you should, [37:23] because that's honestly [37:24] the thing that's going [37:24] to resonate [37:25] with the most people, [37:26] they can't do it [37:27] because they're in [37:27] the pockets of, [37:28] you know, [37:29] pharmaceutical companies, [37:30] they're in the pockets [37:30] of the medical industrial complex, [37:31] just like Republicans [37:32] are as well. [37:33] So what they have to do [37:34] is they made it [37:35] an identity politics issue. [37:36] And I think that [37:37] that was unrelatable, [37:39] probably, [37:40] and made people sway. [37:43] And I would say [37:44] that is part of it. [37:45] And I would say [37:45] the other part is, [37:47] and I think that [37:47] it's important to say this [37:48] for progressives in general, [37:50] it is a harder job [37:52] to be a progressive publicly [37:54] than it is [37:54] to be a conservative. [37:57] Progressives are trying [37:57] to push progress forward. [37:59] How can we get more equity, [38:00] more equality [38:01] for our marginalized people? [38:04] It is much harder [38:06] to just fuck around [38:07] with your boy on a podcast [38:08] and say whatever words [38:09] as we normally would [38:11] when part of your identity [38:14] and your agenda [38:15] is to seemingly push [38:16] these things forward [38:17] because it can be [38:18] immediately used against you. [38:20] Whereas a conservative [38:21] can say whatever they want [38:22] as long as they're not [38:23] talking about the gun lobby [38:24] or, you know, Christians [38:25] and kind of say whatever [38:26] because they're not exactly [38:28] trying to push everything. [38:29] It's not their identity [38:30] to put, if anything, [38:30] it's make America great again. [38:31] It's like, let's roll it [38:32] back a little bit. [38:33] So I think it is a harder thing [38:36] for Dems to do. [38:37] And I think that's why [38:38] they avoided the podcast. [38:39] You're talking so intelligently [38:42] about the Democratic [38:43] challenge right now. [38:44] But I was watching [38:45] your appearance [38:46] on the Trigonometry podcast. [38:48] Yes, and you know the quote [38:49] I'm going to bring up, right? [38:50] This is so disingenuous, [38:52] but go on. [38:53] This is so, like... [38:55] You'll tell me why [38:55] it's disingenuous, [38:56] but for people who do... [38:57] It's like, this is the exact [38:59] example of the Rorschach test, [39:01] but go on, go on. [39:01] Yeah. [39:02] You were talking about [39:03] apologies. [39:04] You were talking about [39:05] how you were a Democrat [39:06] and they sort of lost you. [39:08] No, no, I'll give it to you [39:09] if you want. [39:09] Yeah, do it. [39:10] Okay, so the context [39:12] of the conversation [39:13] was about, like, [39:14] did people change [39:15] or have parties changed? [39:17] Yeah. [39:17] And I'm pretty sure, [39:18] and then, like, [39:18] and I'm like, [39:19] well, parties have changed [39:20] their priorities. [39:22] And then people [39:23] haven't really changed theirs, [39:25] just parties have shifted [39:26] in certain directions. [39:28] So when I was younger, [39:31] Democrats were cool as hell. [39:32] You know, Bill Clinton [39:33] is playing the sax [39:34] on Arsenio. [39:35] He's smoking weed. [39:37] You're like, [39:38] oh, these guys are cool. [39:39] Like, they embraced homosexuality. [39:41] I grew up in New York City. [39:42] Like, I understand, like, [39:44] the importance of the gay community [39:45] and, like, [39:46] making this an awesome place. [39:48] You know, like, [39:48] they embraced [39:49] what I thought were minorities. [39:50] I'm like, [39:51] yo, this is awesome. [39:51] And the perspective [39:52] when you're just a kid, [39:53] you're not out there, [39:54] you're like, [39:54] oh, yeah, [39:55] Republicans are just, like, [39:56] some Southern racists. [39:57] That's kind of what you thought. [39:58] And then Republicans [39:59] at the time were like, [39:59] don't say bad words. [40:00] Hip-hop is bad. [40:02] Rock and roll music is dangerous. [40:03] They're, like, [40:03] finger-wagging, right? [40:04] They're telling you what to do. [40:05] And they're the ones [40:06] that are, like, [40:07] kind of inhibiting free speech. [40:09] And Democrats were, [40:10] perception-wise, [40:11] pushing it forward [40:12] and protecting the free speech. [40:14] And then I just create [40:15] this juxtaposition. [40:16] And I go, [40:16] now, [40:17] Trump's got three baby mamas. [40:19] And I go, [40:20] I go, [40:20] and the Democrats are saying [40:21] what words we can't say. [40:23] You can't say, [40:23] you know, [40:24] retard, [40:24] or you can't say this. [40:25] Like, [40:26] you're policing speech [40:27] and you're, [40:28] and the Republicans are like, [40:28] yo, [40:29] say whatever you want. [40:29] You gotta do it. [40:30] And I'm like, [40:30] wow, [40:31] look at this shift [40:31] in terms of the parties. [40:33] Did the people move at all [40:34] or have the parties move? [40:36] And I say this thing, [40:37] I'm being purposely reductive [40:38] because I'm a comedian, [40:39] talking to comedians. [40:40] And I'm like, [40:41] I'm like, [40:42] I'm gonna vote, [40:42] the guy who gets three baby mamas. [40:44] So I'm voting for the guy [40:45] with more, [40:45] who's getting more pussy [40:46] or something like that. [40:47] Yeah. [40:47] I get how anybody who saw it [40:49] out of the context [40:50] of the conversation [40:51] was like, [40:51] this guy is an idiot. [40:53] You voted for somebody [40:54] because they get laid. [40:55] But at the same time, [40:56] it's like, [40:57] do you really think [40:58] that that was, [40:59] like at a certain point in time, [41:00] can we afford even like [41:01] a modicum of intelligence [41:03] to the person saying something? [41:05] Like, [41:05] do you think that's the point [41:06] I was actually trying [41:07] to demonstrate [41:07] that all Democrats need to do [41:09] is get laid [41:10] and then, [41:10] yeah, [41:11] we'll vote for them. [41:13] Ridiculous. [41:14] But the point was, [41:15] or a point was that [41:16] if Democrats [41:17] exhibited [41:18] more comfort [41:19] with like a kind of [41:20] libertinism, [41:22] then that would be part of [41:23] appealing to someone. [41:23] Well, [41:23] I think that that is, [41:25] I think it's a good [41:25] extrapolation for it, [41:26] but the point was actually [41:28] that the people [41:29] haven't shifted. [41:30] We have these conversations [41:31] all the time. [41:31] Like, [41:32] you were saying earlier, [41:33] like white males [41:34] went to the right. [41:35] And it's like, [41:36] I think a better way [41:37] to look at it is [41:37] have parties shifted. [41:40] Like, [41:41] we have no problem [41:41] saying that Trump [41:42] completely changed [41:43] the Republican Party. [41:44] Like, [41:45] it just looks nothing [41:46] like the party [41:47] of 10 years ago. [41:48] Right? [41:49] Like, [41:49] he completely transformed it. [41:50] You could make the argument [41:51] that like Bernie [41:52] is transforming [41:53] the Democratic Party. [41:53] So we know [41:54] that parties change. [41:55] And I think people [41:56] kind of stay [41:57] in their areas [41:58] and parties shift [41:59] and sometimes [42:01] they can shift [42:02] and grab [42:02] more people. [42:04] So that was the conversation [42:05] I was trying to say. [42:06] It's not people running away. [42:07] It's parties running away. [42:10] But who gets laid more, bro? [42:12] It's just so, [42:13] like, [42:13] I saw it starting to go viral. [42:14] I'm like, [42:14] do I have to fucking address it? [42:16] Like, [42:16] oh God, [42:17] it was like every pundit [42:18] did something about it. [42:19] Like, [42:20] but whatever. [42:21] I'm, [42:22] I'm responsible. [42:23] I shouldn't have said it like that. [42:25] I should have found [42:26] a way to make the point [42:27] that wasn't so easily [42:28] refutable. [42:30] So that's on me. [42:31] When you said a second note, [42:32] you know, [42:32] you're a comedian, [42:33] you're on a podcast [42:34] with other comedians. [42:35] Yeah. [42:35] Do you think there's [42:36] something just like [42:36] slightly disingenuous [42:39] about that? [42:39] Because it's like [42:41] in the same, [42:41] I know the argument [42:42] you're going to make [42:43] where it's just like [42:43] we're using that [42:44] as like a get out of jail [42:45] free card. [42:45] It's also, [42:46] it's like really is [42:46] when is somebody [42:47] supposed to, [42:48] who's watching [42:48] and they're listening, [42:49] they're supposed to [42:50] minute to minute [42:51] of the conversation [42:51] be like, [42:51] oh, [42:52] now he's in comedian mode. [42:53] Now he's in public [42:54] commentator mode. [42:55] Like how? [42:55] Always treat me [42:56] as a comedian. [42:56] Always treat you [42:57] as a comedian. [42:58] Don't, [42:58] because I've never asked you [42:59] to treat me any other way. [43:00] But you're talking [43:00] seriously now. [43:01] You are making me serious. [43:03] But I'm a comedian. [43:05] To me, [43:05] I'm always a comedian. [43:06] You guys are deciding [43:07] that I'm not. [43:08] But do I have to be funny [43:09] every second [43:10] to be a comedian? [43:12] When you're funny, [43:13] do you stop being [43:13] a journalist? [43:16] No. [43:17] So then why is it [43:18] when I'm asking [43:19] a serious question, [43:20] I stop being a comedian? [43:23] Right, [43:23] but when you say [43:24] the serious thing, [43:25] when you say [43:26] the serious thing, [43:27] does that then mean [43:29] the reaction [43:30] to the serious thing [43:31] can always be defended [43:33] just by saying, [43:34] no, no, I was a comedian? [43:36] When have I done that? [43:37] I've heard this criticism [43:38] about podcasters, [43:40] but when have I [43:41] gotten upset [43:42] at the reaction [43:43] of, like, [43:44] No, but when you're [43:45] saying that, [43:46] no, no, I'm not saying [43:48] I'm a political pundit. [43:49] I'm just a comedian. [43:50] That is your version [43:51] of saying, [43:53] it's not up to me [43:53] to answer these questions [43:54] about things I've said. [43:55] That's not true. [43:56] What question have I avoided? [43:57] I just feel like, [43:58] I think you understand [43:59] the point I'm trying to make [44:00] and my semantics [44:01] are not working. [44:02] No, it's not the semantics. [44:03] I think that you have [44:04] an opinion about me [44:05] and you're not willing [44:06] to wiggle away from it, [44:07] but you don't realize [44:08] that I'm agreeing with you. [44:10] So what I just did before [44:11] when you brought up [44:12] the baby mamas [44:13] and boyfriend Democrats [44:14] thing is, [44:14] the last thing I said was, [44:17] I have to be better [44:18] at what I communicate [44:18] because I ultimately [44:20] bear the consequences [44:21] of that communication, [44:23] whether I'm joking or not. [44:24] I go, [44:25] I would love [44:25] if I was afforded [44:26] like a modicum [44:27] of intelligence [44:28] in the way [44:28] that people interpret it, [44:29] but that might not [44:30] be happening. [44:31] I'm saying, [44:32] yeah, I'm a comedian. [44:32] I'm busting balls [44:33] with my friends, [44:33] but I take on [44:35] the responsibility [44:35] of the reactions to that [44:38] if these people [44:39] don't want to see me [44:40] as a comedian. [44:40] But what I would love [44:42] is what you have, [44:43] which is you get [44:44] to be a journalist, [44:44] but then when you make [44:45] a joke, [44:45] we don't go, [44:46] hey, you were pretending [44:47] to be a comedian there, [44:48] and that joke that you did [44:50] wasn't funny enough, [44:51] so right now [44:52] you never get to make [44:53] jokes again [44:53] because that joke [44:54] you tried to make [44:55] was not funny. [44:56] What I'm saying [44:56] is that there is not [44:57] an exact even exchange [44:59] in the mirror [45:00] between us, [45:01] but I will take it on. [45:03] If I say something out loud, [45:04] I bear the responsibility [45:05] of it. [45:06] That's the cost [45:07] of this business. [45:07] We get to talk shit [45:08] for a living [45:09] with our friends [45:09] and interview fucking [45:10] presidents [45:11] and thoughtful historians [45:14] and just somebody [45:15] who thinks the pyramids [45:16] were built by aliens. [45:17] This is awesome. [45:18] The experience you just had [45:19] of trying to explain [45:20] something to me [45:21] and needing to do it [45:22] five times [45:23] before I got it, [45:24] now you know [45:24] what it's like [45:24] to be my wife. [45:27] How do you not [45:28] understand what I'm saying? [45:29] I've been there, bro. [45:30] I just did a joke. [45:31] I did a joke. [45:32] See? [45:32] See? [45:33] And if it wasn't funny enough, [45:34] I want you to let him know, [45:35] okay? [45:36] He's a journalist. [45:37] Should be doing [45:37] his comedy stuff. [45:38] Yeah. [45:39] This may be the last question [45:41] for now [45:41] because you know [45:42] we're talking again [45:42] next week. [45:43] But you mentioned [45:45] just in passing [45:45] being in therapy. [45:47] Yeah. [45:47] What are you working on now? [45:49] Just, you know, [45:50] having like, [45:51] just relationship. [45:52] Like having a kid [45:53] just throws everything [45:55] for such a loop [45:56] and you just got [45:58] to stay on it. [45:59] So, [45:59] any way I can like [46:01] improve [46:02] in certain ways [46:03] and... [46:04] So what are things [46:05] that you need [46:05] to improve on? [46:06] Like not, [46:07] not saying [46:08] what the person is doing [46:09] but like saying [46:10] what I'm feeling [46:10] in a moment. [46:11] You know, [46:12] like not trying to like [46:13] win the interaction [46:14] but just like [46:14] understanding [46:15] how something affected me. [46:16] Yeah. [46:17] And also, [46:17] this is a good one too. [46:18] Like being calm [46:20] doesn't mean [46:22] that you can't [46:23] prick somebody else. [46:24] Like just, [46:25] just being calm [46:26] and reactive [46:26] to something [46:27] doesn't mean [46:27] that can also [46:28] not be like frustrating [46:29] to the person [46:29] you're talking to [46:30] but you think [46:31] you have maybe [46:31] some like high ground [46:32] in the argument [46:33] just simply [46:33] because you're like calm. [46:34] I'm not mad. [46:35] I'm not mad. [46:35] Yeah, [46:36] I'm not mad [46:36] and you seem [46:38] really frustrated [46:38] so I must be [46:39] the reasonable one here. [46:40] That's not necessarily [46:41] the case. [46:42] Yeah, [46:42] so just like [46:43] learning about [46:43] that kind of stuff [46:44] and, [46:45] uh, [46:45] shit, [46:45] I wish I could do [46:46] therapy every day. [46:47] I'll be honest. [46:47] I think it's like [46:48] just understanding [46:50] like why I react [46:52] to certain things. [46:52] Why does, [46:53] why is justice [46:53] important to me? [46:54] Why am I sensitive? [46:55] Why do I care [46:56] what people think? [46:57] Why do I not care [46:58] sometimes [46:59] what people think? [47:00] Uh, [47:00] when are the times [47:02] that you care [47:02] what people think? [47:07] So, [47:08] for example, [47:08] that bummed me out [47:09] when, [47:09] uh, [47:10] people like [47:11] took what I said [47:13] at face value. [47:14] It was fair. [47:14] You, [47:15] with the trigonometry. [47:16] Like it's totally fair. [47:17] I said it, [47:18] you're allowed to react [47:18] to it, [47:18] whatever you want, [47:19] you're entitled [47:19] to your reaction. [47:20] But like that bummed [47:21] me out a little. [47:21] I was like, [47:22] ah man, [47:22] it's like so easy [47:23] to discredit me [47:24] as just some like [47:25] dumb bro [47:26] if you just look at that. [47:27] So, [47:27] that bummed me out. [47:28] But then you just kind of, [47:29] you keep on trucking, [47:30] man. [47:31] You know? [47:32] After the break, [47:36] I talk to Andrew again [47:37] and he tells me [47:39] what he's been thinking about [47:40] from our first conversation. [47:41] You had a good question [47:43] during the pod [47:45] that I was like, [47:46] I thought about [47:46] like all week. [47:47] Well, [47:47] you had several good questions. [47:48] But like, [47:50] you were like, [47:51] you don't say the N-word [47:52] or the K-word, [47:53] but you'll say other words. [47:54] And I was like, [47:55] I don't think that that's true. [47:57] Like, [47:57] I didn't know [47:57] what to think of it [47:58] in the moment. [48:17] Investing with Schwab [48:18] is like spending a Saturday [48:19] at a great farmer's market. [48:21] You can fill your reusable tote [48:23] with a bit of everything. [48:24] Maybe you go for some free-range, [48:26] self-directed investing. [48:27] Or perhaps you pick up a few [48:29] farm-fresh trades [48:30] while you peruse. 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[49:52] That's half off [49:53] at SimpliSafe.com [49:54] slash The Daily. [49:55] There's no safe [49:56] like SimpliSafe. [50:10] Andrew, [50:10] thank you for taking [50:11] the time to talk [50:11] with me again. [50:12] Of course. [50:14] So, you know, [50:14] I was, uh, [50:15] I mean, [50:15] I was thinking a lot [50:16] about a lot of things [50:17] from the conversation [50:18] so far. [50:19] Yeah. [50:19] But the first thing is, [50:20] you know, [50:21] you described yourself [50:22] as a sensitive person [50:23] who also cares about [50:25] what people think [50:26] about you. [50:27] And part of your job [50:29] involves poking [50:31] at sensitivities, [50:32] which means that [50:34] some people are going [50:35] to think negative [50:36] things about you. [50:37] Yeah. [50:37] that's an interesting [50:38] psychological juxtaposition. [50:40] So how might your own [50:42] insecurities play [50:44] into the work [50:44] that you do? [50:45] I would say like [50:46] the most specific [50:47] or like nuanced version [50:49] of what we were talking [50:50] about in the earlier [50:50] part of the pod [50:51] is like I'm specifically [50:52] sensitive about [50:53] people believing [50:55] I am somebody [50:56] that I don't believe [50:57] I am. [50:58] Right. [50:58] So if you feel [50:59] like you're being [50:59] criticized for what [51:00] feel like the right [51:01] reasons or fair reasons, [51:03] then you're able [51:04] to deal with it. [51:05] Yeah. [51:05] You had a good question [51:06] during the pod [51:08] that I was like [51:08] I thought about [51:09] like all week. [51:10] Well, you had several [51:11] good questions, [51:11] but like you're like [51:13] you don't say the N word [51:15] or the K word, [51:15] but you'll say other words. [51:17] And I was like, [51:18] I don't think [51:19] that that's true. [51:19] Like I didn't know [51:20] what to think of it [51:21] in the moment. [51:22] And then you were [51:23] even brought up [51:23] like the R word, [51:24] like how I feel [51:25] comfortable saying that one. [51:26] And I really thought [51:27] about it. [51:27] And like, again, [51:28] this is me like [51:28] trying to like retrofit [51:30] my knee jerk [51:32] feelings on it. [51:32] Does that make sense? [51:33] It's like, and I think [51:34] that like what makes [51:36] a slur bad is like, [51:37] it's a descriptor [51:38] plus organized violence [51:42] and perceived organized [51:43] violence. [51:45] And I think that like [51:46] as humans, if we feel [51:48] like there was organized [51:51] violence along with a [51:53] descriptor, we're like, [51:55] Ooh, that's bad. [51:56] And if we don't remember [51:59] or can't or aren't taught, [52:01] or it's like too far in the [52:03] past that organized [52:04] violence, we start to feel [52:07] like it's not as heavy. [52:10] And I think like, [52:11] that's why our reaction [52:11] is different, you know, [52:12] when it comes to maybe [52:14] Latino slurs or when it [52:15] comes to even Asian slurs, [52:16] it's like, where's the [52:17] organized violence? [52:20] It's very hard to talk in [52:21] absolutes about these kinds [52:22] of things, because when I [52:23] heard you just give that [52:25] definition, in my mind [52:26] immediately thought, well, [52:28] I don't know if it's [52:28] organized violence, but [52:29] there definitely was a spike [52:31] in violence against Asian [52:33] Americans post pandemic. [52:35] And like, does that count [52:36] as organized violence? [52:37] And then does that have [52:38] some bearing on using [52:39] slurs for Asian Americans? [52:41] Because I feel like we [52:42] get stuck litigating word [52:44] by word, you know, and [52:45] that's I don't want to do [52:46] that. [52:46] I like I agree with you. [52:47] I think we're beyond like [52:48] the word police. [52:49] Like, I think if we get [52:50] caught in like you don't [52:51] want to be word police, David, [52:53] I don't think I think that's [52:54] like maybe five, ten years [52:55] ago, I think we've moved [52:56] on beyond word police. [52:58] But I appreciate that you [53:00] brought up that you had been [53:02] doing some reflecting on [53:03] parts of the conversation [53:04] that we've had up till now. [53:05] Oh, yeah. [53:06] And I was wondering if you [53:07] think there are ways in [53:09] which your own sensitivities [53:12] or maybe even insecurities [53:13] might have shown up in our [53:14] conversation. [53:16] Sure. [53:17] I think that like to say no [53:19] would be ridiculous. [53:20] I think that like the world [53:22] is constantly rebounding off [53:24] of your insecurities or [53:25] sensitivities and at least me. [53:27] And like I'm just trying to [53:29] manage like what those [53:30] reactions are. [53:30] And sometimes I feel confident [53:32] in those reactions and [53:33] sometimes I reflect and go, [53:34] oh, wow, maybe that was. [53:37] Yeah. [53:37] But I mean, I feel like, [53:40] you know, the answer to [53:41] that question. [53:41] It's like, do you think you [53:42] were insecure at all in our [53:44] conversation? [53:44] If I go, no, I'm a [53:45] psychopath, you know? [53:47] So, yeah, of course. [53:49] Yeah. [53:50] I'm a fucking regular [53:51] human being, David. [53:52] Yeah. [53:53] Um, you know, one thing that [53:56] you said that stuck out for [53:58] me that perhaps relates is you [54:00] said you can feel a need to [54:02] win the interaction. [54:05] I said that that was the [54:05] thing that I am working on. [54:07] I was wondering if, um, and [54:10] also, Andrew, I want to be [54:11] clear right now. [54:12] In no question I ask, am I [54:14] trying to trap you into [54:16] anything? [54:16] It's all coming from a place [54:18] of curiosity and trying to [54:19] understand. [54:20] Does that make sense? [54:22] I think it makes sense. [54:23] I don't know if I believe that [54:24] you believe it, but I think it [54:26] makes sense, I think, I think [54:28] you would like to believe that [54:30] of yourself, but I, I do think [54:32] that you have like a line of [54:33] thinking that you're getting [54:35] towards and you're using [54:37] questioning to get me to that. [54:39] And so I am hesitant to simply [54:41] just accept every single thing [54:44] as a yes or no, because that [54:46] might be another rung of the [54:47] ladder to get to this point [54:48] where I might have to go, hold [54:50] on, there's more nuance to what [54:52] I just said. [54:53] You know, I did wonder if the [54:55] way you, you so often turned [54:57] the question I was asking you [54:59] back around on me. [55:01] Was that a way of trying to [55:02] like wrong foot me or undercut [55:05] the question or invalidate the [55:06] questions? [55:07] Cause how so? [55:08] Well, cause you know, there [55:09] were, there were times where I [55:10] would ask you a question and [55:11] you'd say, well, what do you [55:12] think about that? [55:13] And you know, I, I didn't have [55:15] answers or I didn't have good [55:16] answers, but I thought it was [55:18] interesting and in retrospect [55:20] because my ability to express an [55:23] opinion or give an answer to [55:24] the question I'm asking, [55:25] especially questions that have [55:26] some political content, it's [55:28] like supposed to be somewhat [55:29] irrelevant. [55:31] And I'm sure I'm guilty of [55:32] hypocrisy in this sometimes, or [55:33] I don't always ride the lion as [55:35] cleanly as I could. [55:36] Like it's the thing that I think [55:37] I'm trying to do is giving [55:39] people a chance to hear from [55:40] subjects without my own [55:42] political or ideological opinions [55:45] filtering in. [55:46] And that's kind of a big [55:47] difference between what my job [55:49] is and what your job is. [55:51] And I think because of that [55:52] difference, the question [55:53] flipping, it was something I [55:54] really struggled with. [55:56] Why, why do you think you [55:57] struggle with it? [55:58] Well, two things, one, and [56:00] you're just flipping it again. [56:03] I'm just a curious guy. [56:04] Like, well, with the content [56:07] that does have a political [56:08] edge to it, I'm really not [56:10] supposed to betray my own [56:13] thinking and feeling. [56:14] Who's supposed to, according to [56:16] whom? [56:16] Well, there is an idea of, you [56:18] know, news journalism as [56:19] impartial and objective. [56:21] I'm not supposed to be putting my [56:22] thumb on the scale. [56:23] You know what I mean? [56:24] Well, maybe I was asking you [56:26] to reflect on it because I [56:28] thought you might be putting [56:29] your thumb on the scale. [56:31] And by reflecting on it and [56:32] you sharing your opinion, it [56:34] could inform the people [56:36] listening why you're asking me [56:37] such specific questions. [56:40] And that way, the listener [56:42] goes, oh, I see why this line [56:43] of questioning is happening [56:44] because he has this [56:46] perspective about this [56:47] situation and he's trying to [56:48] get to this outcome. [56:51] Me, for example, I just have a [56:52] rule. [56:52] I'm not going to ask anybody [56:53] a question that I haven't [56:54] thought of myself. [56:55] Like, I just, I find that not [56:57] to be insulting to you, but [56:58] like, if I haven't taken the [56:59] time to like reflect on my [57:02] thoughts on a question, like [57:03] I wouldn't even feel [57:04] comfortable asking somebody [57:05] like on camera, record it, [57:08] how they feel about it. [57:10] If you're asking me a question [57:11] about what I've done in a [57:13] situation or why I did something [57:14] in a situation and you haven't [57:15] reflected on what you would [57:16] have done in that situation, [57:18] what are you really seeking in [57:20] my answer? [57:20] Like, you know what I did in [57:22] this situation? [57:23] I think the thing I'm seeking [57:24] is the thinking underneath it. [57:27] What is the opinion of you [57:28] that you seem to think I hold [57:30] or I'm pushing you towards or [57:32] trying to frame you in a [57:33] particular way? [57:34] I don't know. [57:35] That's why I ask. [57:36] Yeah. [57:36] I'm not sure how much like you [57:38] feel like you want to get [57:39] across. [57:39] I'm not sure how, how much you [57:42] feel like a responsibility to [57:43] your audience to ask certain [57:44] questions. [57:45] Like, I don't like sometimes [57:47] there's moments where I'm like, [57:48] oh, David really wants to know [57:49] about this. [57:49] And sometimes there's moments [57:50] where I'm like, I think David [57:51] feels like if he doesn't ask [57:53] this, that he'll be criticized. [57:54] Like, I'm trying to gauge like [57:56] what you really want. [57:58] Yeah. [57:58] You know, uh, after our first [58:01] conversation, when we were down [58:03] in the lobby and you were leaving, [58:05] we were, we continued the [58:06] conversation. [58:06] Yeah. [58:06] Yeah. [58:07] We don't stop talking, David. [58:09] Maybe we should, but, but, uh, [58:14] you know, we were sort of talking [58:15] about the idea that there has [58:18] been sort of a, a growing [58:19] distrust or dissatisfaction with [58:23] legacy media. [58:24] And in response to that, I think [58:26] a lot of listeners have turned [58:27] to podcasts and other voices [58:30] that they see as more authentic [58:31] or uncompromised voices like [58:33] yourself or a Joe Rogan. [58:34] They shouldn't. [58:34] So, so my question about that [58:36] is like, you know, if you have [58:37] a kind of authority, you know, [58:39] whether you ask for it or not, [58:40] or whether you think it's [58:41] correct or not, what are the [58:42] possible ripple effects of that [58:44] authority and also then what [58:45] responsibility might come with it? [58:47] Yeah. [58:47] I, I think a bunch of things [58:48] happen at the same time, right? [58:50] I think that the internet [58:52] decentralized information. [58:55] And I think with the internet [58:57] and you saw this even like early [58:59] small little versions where [59:00] like conspiracy stuff started to [59:02] pop out, right? [59:03] Like conspiracy stuff is very [59:05] exciting because it's like, it [59:07] makes dumb people feel smart. [59:09] Right? [59:09] It's just like, oh, I know [59:11] something nobody else knows. [59:12] I'm smart now. [59:13] And the truth of the matter [59:15] is the truth is boring. [59:18] What whenever we get to [59:19] like the actual truth, truth of [59:21] it, almost always it is boring. [59:24] But when the information [59:25] decentralized and then we're [59:27] just podcast, we're talking [59:28] to shit with our friends. [59:28] And I know that seems like a [59:29] convenient excuse, but you have [59:30] to understand like in its [59:31] inception, that's what it was. [59:33] And this thing gets so fucking [59:37] popular. [59:38] And I think that there's a [59:39] couple issues, right? [59:40] I think it's like media, for [59:42] example, maybe traditional media [59:44] has like echoed certain [59:45] sentiments that weren't exactly [59:48] truthful. [59:49] Maybe they're not blatant lies, [59:51] but there might be like certain [59:52] things that they, let's say, [59:54] push that we all kind of [59:56] accepted and then have like [59:58] recently become outed, if you [1:00:01] will. [1:00:01] Right? [1:00:02] So now all of a sudden there's [1:00:02] like this undercurrent of like, [1:00:04] oh, I guess we can't trust those [1:00:06] institutions. [1:00:07] Now the reality is, it's like you [1:00:08] guys could get like 90% right. [1:00:11] When you get one thing wrong, it's [1:00:12] like they're a propaganda tool, you [1:00:14] know, it's like you could do [1:00:17] almost perfect reporting, but if [1:00:19] you get one thing wrong, we can [1:00:21] write the entire thing off. [1:00:22] Right? [1:00:23] So I think one, also people were [1:00:26] like moving away from like, uh, [1:00:27] was a print media a lot of times. [1:00:29] And I think that, uh, there's [1:00:31] multiple reasons for that. [1:00:31] One, like I can listen to a [1:00:33] podcast while I do my job. [1:00:35] I can't read the times while I'm [1:00:37] driving to work. [1:00:38] And then we build up like probably [1:00:39] like a parasocial relationship with [1:00:41] these people where you like really [1:00:42] get connected. [1:00:43] And I think what happened is more [1:00:45] people started listening to us. [1:00:47] And this is obviously spearheaded [1:00:49] by the goat, Joe Rogan. [1:00:50] And then more people started [1:00:52] listening to podcasting in general. [1:00:55] And because more people are [1:00:58] listening, popular figures are now [1:01:00] going on these platforms to have [1:01:02] conversations like presidents [1:01:04] and other figures. [1:01:07] And now all of a sudden, like [1:01:09] everybody's consuming their [1:01:09] information about these various [1:01:10] serious things on these platforms [1:01:12] that were not designed to do this [1:01:13] in the first place. [1:01:14] And then when we go, Hey, we're [1:01:16] just asking questions and making [1:01:18] fun of our friends. [1:01:20] There is a very reasonable [1:01:21] criticism, which is, yes, that's [1:01:23] what you started out as. [1:01:24] But now that everybody is watching [1:01:26] you, do you now have a new [1:01:28] responsibility? [1:01:29] Yeah. [1:01:29] And what's the answer to that? [1:01:30] First of all, I just want to say, [1:01:31] I think that that's fair. [1:01:33] I think that that is fair. [1:01:35] I don't think that we have to like [1:01:36] take a specific journalistic [1:01:39] approach, meaning like we, I don't [1:01:43] think we have to kind of, um, remove [1:01:45] our own desires and the questions [1:01:48] that we want to ask. [1:01:49] But just for me personally, I think [1:01:52] it's important to like reflect [1:01:54] multiple viewpoints on the pot. [1:01:56] And we desperately tried to do [1:01:58] that in the last election. [1:01:59] The Democrats that we asked were [1:02:01] not willing to come on now. [1:02:03] They are starting to come on. [1:02:04] And I think it makes for like much [1:02:06] better podcasting. [1:02:07] Also, like the numbers when they [1:02:09] come on are incredible. [1:02:11] Clearly there's like a real thirst [1:02:13] from our audience about that, but [1:02:15] also the world over like, and to [1:02:17] me, what that indicates about our [1:02:19] audience is it's not this extreme [1:02:21] one direction. [1:02:23] We are interested in all these [1:02:24] different things. [1:02:25] So now that we have access to these [1:02:26] people, I think it makes for like a [1:02:28] really fruitful conversation. [1:02:31] And then we would hope that people [1:02:33] have the agency to make their own [1:02:34] ideas. [1:02:35] And the amount of political [1:02:37] influence podcasters have had or [1:02:40] have is highly debatable. [1:02:42] But there is, of course, the old idea [1:02:44] that politics is downstream of culture. [1:02:47] Yeah. [1:02:47] So if we take that as true, what [1:02:49] influence might popular podcasters [1:02:52] be having on politicians and political [1:02:56] discourse? [1:02:57] I think that's a great point. [1:02:59] I think that you're a hundred percent [1:03:00] right about politics being downstream [1:03:02] from culture. [1:03:02] What I would also say is that I think [1:03:05] podcasts are downstream from culture [1:03:06] too. [1:03:07] Oh yeah. [1:03:08] Explain that. [1:03:08] Yeah. [1:03:09] I think podcasts are before politicians, [1:03:11] but I think culture starts, then podcasts [1:03:14] is like something over here and then [1:03:15] politicians. [1:03:17] And I think that the ones that offer [1:03:19] societal utility in that moment tend to [1:03:22] be the most prolific in that moment. [1:03:25] Same thing with comedians, like [1:03:26] comedians are downstream from culture. [1:03:28] And if you're a comedian and you got [1:03:31] a lot of like, uh, women are annoying [1:03:33] jokes, if we're going through, you [1:03:36] know, the rise and fourth wave feminism [1:03:38] and have all these slogans, like the [1:03:40] future is female and all men are suck [1:03:43] or something like that. [1:03:44] That comedian is going to probably do [1:03:47] really well during that time period, because [1:03:50] there's a societal utility. [1:03:52] You know, on the idea that the culture [1:03:55] was hungry for comedians and podcasters [1:03:58] who were doing what you were doing. [1:04:00] Do you have any hunches about what the [1:04:03] audience needs are that like are currently [1:04:06] not being served and like sort of what a [1:04:08] new wave of voices might step into offer? [1:04:11] I think you'll see a lot of voices on [1:04:14] the left that are like really disciplined, [1:04:18] great arguments, like well thought out, [1:04:20] like brilliant left wing pundits will rise [1:04:24] during this time right now because you always [1:04:26] want something to like offset the balance of power [1:04:29] and the rights in charge. [1:04:30] Do you want great arguments from the left? [1:04:32] And I'm not talking about like the septum piercing, [1:04:35] like, you know, like purple fucking hair, like not those [1:04:39] great arguments. [1:04:40] I'm talking about like disciplined, laser focus, research, [1:04:45] understand legislation. [1:04:47] I think they'll be quite prominent. [1:04:49] What about in comedy? [1:04:51] I think people tend to during a Trump administration to get a little exhausted. [1:04:57] And I think now that you can kind of say in comedy, there's like different cycles. [1:05:01] Right. [1:05:01] So it's like when things are super censored, you have the, I think maybe the more prolific [1:05:07] comedians start to sprout out from that where the, uh, George Carlin's, the, the Richard [1:05:13] Pryor's, the Chris rocks, right? [1:05:15] The, they come from these times of like a censoriousness, right? [1:05:19] So it's like, you can't say these words and they're going to use humor to kind of say these [1:05:24] things and to have these ideas. [1:05:27] And then the pendulum swings to kind of where we are right now, where you can say anything. [1:05:30] There's nobody's really upset with anything anymore. [1:05:33] And during this time, comedy tends to get quite absurdist. [1:05:37] So when there's nothing to push back on, you just float. [1:05:41] And this is where like the Zach Galifianakis's tend to thrive. [1:05:45] The Stephen Wright's tend to thrive. [1:05:47] There's nothing to push back against. [1:05:49] So they're almost pushing back against reality itself. [1:05:53] So I would think like people in that realm, but that's, that's just my personal take on [1:05:58] kind of like what happens in comedy. [1:06:00] And eventually we'll get more censored and then you'll have the voices that push back [1:06:04] against that and the cycle repeats forever. [1:06:07] You mentioned Trump. [1:06:08] So I want to ask, you said you voted for him basically as a protest vote against the Democrats. [1:06:13] But how do you think of the job president Trump's been doing so far? [1:06:17] I think that that's unfair for me to say. [1:06:19] I don't think it was simply protest. [1:06:20] I think the reason why I entertained the Republican party for the first time in my life [1:06:25] was because the Democrats, I didn't like what was happening. [1:06:29] And they had said very clearly that, that that was just going to continue. [1:06:32] In terms of IVF, I think that like, he's, he's taken action and protecting it and potentially [1:06:39] like in increasing people's ability to access it. [1:06:42] Who knows if that legislation will actually like get put through, but that would be awesome. [1:06:46] And in terms of, uh, immigration, like I want more, like if you broke the law, you fucked up, [1:06:53] you already here illegally. [1:06:53] So you already broke the law and you're breaking the law. [1:06:56] You gotta go. [1:06:56] So if you've been working your ass off for 10 years here, you've got a family, there's [1:07:04] gotta be a system where we can just give these people a pathway to citizenship or a green card [1:07:10] or something. [1:07:10] Like there has to be a better way than simply just, Hey, you go. [1:07:16] And that's what I was pleading with him for on the pod, which is maybe pleading is a strong [1:07:20] word, but I was asking him to show empathy for these people that he's also employed. [1:07:24] Like, I was like, listen, you've had hotels, you know, these people, you know, that they're [1:07:27] going to bust their ass. [1:07:27] They're going to work hard and they want a better life. [1:07:29] It's like why my mom came here. [1:07:31] So I, your parents or maybe his great grandparents or some shit came here. [1:07:34] So it's like, I would like there to be much more empathy in that department. [1:07:38] I don't think that that's happening. [1:07:40] And what would a Democrat have to do to win your vote back? [1:07:44] Uh, he would just have to be named Bernie Sanders and I'll vote for him in a heartbeat. [1:07:49] No, no. [1:07:49] Um, I think what the Democrats need to do, number one, is just like allow a democratic process. [1:07:54] The primary will tell you everything about what the party wants. [1:07:57] It really will. [1:07:58] It's like, trust the democratic process, just get some primaries going and you're going [1:08:02] to see which part of the party people support. [1:08:06] I think that they've become quite disillusioned with like the typical institutional elites as [1:08:13] Bernie Sanders calls them. [1:08:14] And I think they're probably leaning towards, you know, maybe Bernie's, what does he call [1:08:20] them? [1:08:20] Like democratic socialism faction of the party. [1:08:23] And you could force feed people one thing that they don't want and they will reject you. [1:08:28] And I think that's kind of what happened. [1:08:30] Or you could embrace the changing of the party. [1:08:33] And then if that change in the party ends up failing those people, they will eventually [1:08:36] reject it. [1:08:37] But a democracy allows people to make the decisions that they feel like they want for better [1:08:42] for worse, we have to at least be willing to entertain for worse. [1:08:46] How can we learn as a people if we don't entertain for worse? [1:08:51] Um, Andrew, can you end with a family friendly joke? [1:08:56] Yeah. [1:08:57] Um, a family friendly joke. [1:09:00] Okay. [1:09:00] Here's a joke. [1:09:02] This is a joke that I think it was a Louie joke. [1:09:07] That then Seinfeld told the joke to Louie when they were doing this conversation. [1:09:13] It was like four of them. [1:09:14] Do you remember that thing they did with Ricky Gervais, Chris Rock, Louis CK, and the comedians [1:09:19] on comedians? [1:09:20] And so Seinfeld tells a Seinfeldian version of this Louie joke. [1:09:25] But the joke itself is, um, it's something like, uh, you know, like going on vacation [1:09:31] with the family, you know, like I, I put the kids in the car seats, I put my wife in [1:09:36] the car seat, put the coffees in the coffee holder. [1:09:39] I put the bags in the back. [1:09:41] I give the snack seat to the kids. [1:09:42] I put the last bag in the back. [1:09:44] I go, I close the trunk. [1:09:47] I closed my wife's door. [1:09:50] I closed the kid's door. [1:09:51] And when I'm walking from my wife's door to my door, that's my vacation. [1:09:57] Like, it's just, it's just, I know exactly the joke you're talking about. [1:10:02] I think about this joke constantly. [1:10:04] It's so good. [1:10:05] It's so good. [1:10:07] And it's like, at its core, you could say quite mean, like the idea that like, like, that's [1:10:14] the beauty of a joke and why, how, how we can't like it, what it does is allows us to [1:10:20] freely access these, like maybe darker thoughts and emotions that we have. [1:10:25] It's like, he loves his family. [1:10:27] They, they all love their family, but it, in that little moment, they're like, oh, they're [1:10:32] safe and I don't have to fucking deal with them. [1:10:34] And we all have that feeling for a little moment. [1:10:37] And then we come back to reality and maybe that's what'd be awesome. [1:10:40] If people get about jokes is like these things that we're saying, it's just what we feel [1:10:45] oftentimes in that little moment. [1:10:47] And then we step back. [1:10:50] Um, thanks for taking all the time to talk with me, Andrew. [1:10:52] I appreciate it. [1:10:52] You're great, David. [1:10:53] I know you hate me saying that, but I love this format about coming back. [1:10:56] I love it. [1:10:57] Zip it, zip it. [1:10:58] I don't, I don't, I don't, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye. [1:11:00] All right. [1:11:01] Take it easy. [1:11:07] That's Andrew Schultz. [1:11:09] His most recent comedy special, Life, is streaming on Netflix. [1:11:12] This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. [1:11:16] It was edited by Alison Benedict. [1:11:19] Mixing by Sonia Herrero. [1:11:21] Original music by Dan Powell, Elisha Etoop, Sophia Landman, and Marion Lozano. [1:11:27] Photography by Devin Yalkin. [1:11:29] Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Wyatt Orm is our producer. [1:11:32] Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. [1:11:35] Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddie Macielo, Jake Silverstein, [1:11:41] Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik. 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