The Godfather of AI Ready Data Centers — OCOLO CEO & Founder Tony Rossabi

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: welcome to uplink where we explore the world of digital infrastructure uncovering the technology fueling AI and cloud innovation with the leaders making it happen I've been waiting a while to do this one finally got him this is this is exciting so yeah I want you to introduce yourself and tell me what you think you do and I've got a whole list of all the stuff that I know that you do as well that you haven't got written down what we've got here ladies and gentlemen is something had to get printed actually here it is we're the king of t-shirts and today we get to interview the godfather I don't know if you can get a zoom in on that bad boy but there it is the godfather is in town tell me hey tell me tell me the godfather uh hey man look thanks for catching up we're in your city uh it's not often we get to get you down actually chat like this so tell me what what would you describe you as right now in your role or your many roles so we uh about we launched a [00:01:00] Speaker 2: company called beyond which has been fantastic it's a data center construction operations and that's what [00:01:04] Speaker 1: i want to drill into a bit after this as well that sounds this incredible yeah so we started that uh [00:01:10] Speaker 2: oh we've been working on it for a couple years we launched uh earlier this year but sort of got our we partnered with wafra which is the uh effectively the um u.s arm of the kuwaiti uh social security arm awesome um that's that's that's for funding that's for funding yeah yeah um these things are not cheap these things are not cheap to build yeah uh this is my fifth deal with them we've been a great partner we did uh a car wash business together we did it really we're getting into that too which is was incredibly successful uh we made some you know six plus times our money wow it was a great launch with uh out of order bus and and uh and uh ryan brenner um you know these guys literally driving car washes and what uh yeah it's express wash and the best name the best name was called l car wash um so uh uh in miami and two incredible entrepreneurs uh justin landau and jeff karis they ran it they were fantastic guys came up with the idea so that they've been with you for a car wash so use car washes so we did car washes uh the original investment was they invested in tierpoint so they invested in tierpoint was on was on the executive team and then we met each other uh i subsequently left tierpoint to run a company called recovery point but uh that i was involved with the car wash was on the board and we've done we did an incredible investment in connect base um so we did that with uh ben edmund yeah they just had a nice they had a nice exit yeah yeah [00:02:42] Speaker 1: yeah great exit you know he's been on the show has he been he has no way yeah that's awesome early days we got there i was there before he became famous [00:02:50] Speaker 2: yeah exactly um so i've known him for 25 years we did that investment in 2022 great exit ben took the business from zero to 200 million yes huge uh it was great great win for him and then we did uh i'm on the board of a company called clc which is another year it's a 18-wheeler trailer leasing business of course of course it is and then and then we've done beyond and so it's been a great success and uh a really good run with with wafer they've been fantastic to me i'm i have a great relationship with them um otto and ryan have been the leaders with michael coleman as well um and we've uh worked incredibly well together so so we'd say serial entrepreneur in some way shape or form i'm sure you don't want to be called that but we just called you the godfather so so hang on so these are all the companies that you've built you're also on the board i haven't built all those but i'm on the board of the i'm on the board of few and then we built beyond uh and then we built beyond uh i think that's a great success and uh a really good run with with wafer they've been fantastic to me um i have a great relationship with them um [00:03:28] Speaker 1: um otto and ryan have been the leaders with michael coleman as well um and we've uh worked incredibly well together so so we'd say serial entrepreneur in some way shape or form i'm sure you don't want to be called that but we just called you the godfather so [00:03:38] Speaker 2: so hang on so these are all the companies that you've built you're also on the board i haven't built all those but i'm on the board of the i'm on the board of few and then we built beyond uh and then we built ocolo yeah so those love is yeah ocolo we built in 2000 uh really started in sort of 2021 yeah um kicked it off ocolo is an online marketplace for data centers it's uh my partner there is sean mccarthy we've done you know kind of 20 plus years and the dinosaurs in the space have decided that they uh they wanted to you know ideally work with the younger folks and uh but we we created this awesome platform where we have i don't know 250 plus data center providers about 8 000 providers um and it's a it's a marketplace yeah you know and we've we've enabled it with ai we have a online contract management tool which is all ai enabled it's been i will tell you is starting uh getting into a startup at 50 was uh was not ideal but uh you know we've made it work and uh companies very profitable um we're small or six [00:04:41] Speaker 1: people you know it does does the job yeah and and that's i think the hottest we've talked about this a lot of this particular podcast but it's been getting harder and harder to find space and power and it's it's particularly with this sort of rise of inference and we can chat about that as well there's there's multiple phases there's people that are looking to try and build a gigawatt which is in folks that have to build find land find power to build something then there's a lot of folks who are utilizing existing data centers they need to land like now or tomorrow and i think the okolo piece is really powerful to say i need space and power now but i don't know where to look that's right and you can scale pretty much the globe but i think a lot of it's probably us at the moment or is it it's [00:05:25] Speaker 2: worldwide surprisingly the first three years were basically all non-us yeah oh non-us yeah and now we've come back we've sort of repatriated back yeah um but we cover every continent except antarctico yeah [00:05:40] Speaker 1: what we're working on well sean and i are taking a journey there to see we can exactly take one of our switches pop that place for me it's the only country we're missing yeah um but uh other you know [00:05:52] Speaker 2: it's it's been a it's been an interesting ride seeing i mean i think there's been two constants in this data center space right you're looking for reasonable space and reasonable power yeah just the enormity has been insane yeah i mean we have seen the last 18 24 months the growth you know far exceeds 20 plus years before yeah it's just it's just it's exceptional and i think the next five [00:06:13] Speaker 1: years are going to be even more exceptional yeah i mean we should dig into some of it around like what you're seeing entering this space it's funny we were just at itw and it was the conversations we're having in fact i talked to one of our customers who uses they provide a lot of compute and so forth and they were telling us that they've found data center companies or there's a lot of vc money or something we'll call it new money in data center space and they're just building things that are substandard they're rushing or they're not getting the parts or they're not ordering in advance and so there's these folks who've been doing this for a long time um who who provide great product there are folks all these sort of cowboys i want to say like that have entered into this space that have just been producing and it's actually i it's the first time i've started to hear that the product is actually not a great uh experience for them they gave examples of liquid cooled floors or liquid cooled facilities that don't have floors that were raised like i don't even understand some of these specs but like we're talking just just design specs that haven't been designed properly which i find almost well that's really hard to understand as well because you could outsource most of these pieces [00:07:18] Speaker 2: but it's like pieces of the puzzle are missing no i i think you're spot on so what has happened is there's so many not i wouldn't need to say entrance there's there's new entrants there's current folks that are just trying to get the challenge right now is just time to market yeah and so i think that folks are trying to produce something rush without the quality um the other piece is what you brought up a liquid cooling i would say that less than 10 percent of the industry fully understands liquid [00:07:45] Speaker 1: yeah that's probably one of the pivots even if you've been building data centers for the last 20 [00:07:49] Speaker 2: years this is different yeah really hard yeah um i think that obviously nvidia and amd and these folks have captured that they understand it yes they're engineers i think it's challenging for you know folks that have been doing air cooling for 20 years to pivot immediately and say hey we're going to liquid yeah [00:08:08] Speaker 1: yeah it's hard and i think so with your engineering completely re-engineered these buildings but also frankly the it's changed what's the slow part of the equation is the build to build a data center it's even slower to get the power but let's just say the build component for this what's what's challenging is nvidia keeps changing their chips that's right and the requirement of vera is so different to what bees were which was h's and so forth and so now all of a sudden you're trying to build something for three years and every year bees bring out something different and so that is also challenging and the amount of power they're punching into a single racks the density of it changes how much liquid you need to get to it how that works how cold the liquid is or warm and they've now sort of got it to a point where actually warm is better people looked at submersion for a period and that's probably just not easy to run this sort of direct chips become sort of the answer which i think probably makes a lot more sense it's sort of yeah so yeah it sort of makes sense that it's been hard [00:09:05] Speaker 2: to keep up i think it's been hard the other thing i want to say is i'm excited to hire you as my new engineer because you're you're you're talking your your your uh technical speak is pretty incredible [00:09:15] Speaker 1: well i just hear everyone telling me these problems i'm like that is a fascinating problem [00:09:19] Speaker 2: no but we do have so i think a couple things one the technology and the innovation has been so rapid yeah in the space that for uh we're going to go through a transition period within this within this space i mean you think about a lot of data centers been around for 25 30 years and that tech that is in there today is quite outdated yes but we've just been running on it now as we move to say hey how do we become more energy efficient how to become more you know green and carbon emissions and things like that most of those are not equipped to do that so i think there's going to be a fairly decent business if folks want to engage in this is the adjacencies is hey how do we retrofit data centers without interrupting service yes and i think that's going to be so i talked to a gentleman at geico a number of years ago and they had just completely refitted all of their data centers i went to a two and a half year um geico insurance and they did a fantastic job there are going to be more and more folks that are going to do yeah retrofits and even if you retrofitted for something for two years ago oh it's going to be outdated i mean i think we're moving so quickly and so as we talked about just a minute ago is time to market is so important i mean and you know look we're in this crazy stage right now where i mean i think you and i talked about this a couple days ago it was like when we started telex a big deal for us in 2012 was 1.25 megawatts yes it's like exactly that's a drop in the [00:10:43] Speaker 1: bucket now yeah it's crazy we took that down in a week oh yeah come on i mean that's one captain that's true it's insane it's crazy yeah giant facilities are getting pulled down into its tiny spaces that do is it's not really space it's power it's power it's power and how you call that power [00:11:00] Speaker 2: a hundred percent and i i think the challenge right now you know it's interesting 2012 average was like [00:11:05] Speaker 1: two to four kva per cabinet the average is like 40 to 50. yeah it's insane it's it's great it's just it's just crazy and yeah so we've got all of these these things changing so quickly so then okolo solves a big problem which is i need a megawatt of power i need two megawatts about i need it now and i need it somewhere and it's like well there's hundreds of providers actually data center countries there's actually thousands of data centers tens of thousands each one's at a different stage everyone will tell you yes i can get it for you in a year two years three years or now but it's not this or it doesn't have this and i haven't got that and it's like really tricky no i mean it's like hey [00:11:41] Speaker 2: i mean i don't know if everybody knows about raxio who covers tier two markets in in africa and you know yeah they need space they're not evil link in bulgaria you know i mean these are these are companies that we work with yeah really yeah you know we find uh i guess okolo finds this also sources for you know we do a job that a lot of people don't want to do yeah it's super you know and you know [00:12:03] Speaker 1: we're happy to do it but by doing it for one it's the same thing you do it you're doing the same discussion for it's the same discussion it's exactly right it's just maybe a different scale or it might be like a different power requirement or that's right but we're looking for unique markets we've done [00:12:18] Speaker 2: pretty much all the major carriers and they are major providers and then now we're saying okay how do we get to you know the secondary and tertiary and uh yeah it's fun you know that's a color [00:12:28] Speaker 1: that's an awesome company in its own right but what you're doing with beyond which is not even on your linkedin a little stealth mode uh that's that's really cool so my assumption is that you you've been looking for power and space and you got to a point where for some of the hyperscale clients that probably needed to use you you were like well actually there isn't any and i'm going to build it for you and find it so tell me that story because that that's pretty amazing yeah so so we were looking and did you bet you didn't think you're going to be ending up doing that we didn't we didn't [00:12:56] Speaker 2: know this is it was uh look we found a great customer um who's hyperscaler who needed purpose-built data centers in certain markets um wafra has uh made some great investments they've invested in vantage and dc blocks they invested in tierpoint um they're astute in the data center space i had a relationship with them we brought our client the client really liked them you know everything came together yeah um you never know if it is no it could be a bump and you know the you know customer might [00:13:33] Speaker 1: not like the financial sparring center yeah and it all worked um we never you've got to bring that's the piece for this is and we'll get into it but you've got to bring so many pieces of the puzzle together that's right you're going to have to source land that has access to power then you get the regulations and the approvals from the the local councils and all these and this is not just one [00:13:53] Speaker 2: state or one county no this is multiple it's all it's it's you know we're starting with 10 sites across the us mostly tier two cities and size roughly size of 10 megawatts which is it's not [00:14:05] Speaker 1: it's not tiny you know but imagine 10 megawatts three years ago five years ago you'd be like five [00:14:09] Speaker 2: years ago yeah it's like three cabinets exactly but i think you know i think one of the things [00:14:18] Speaker 1: you that's big it's like 10 megawatts times 10 across the us and then and then we're doing europe as [00:14:24] Speaker 2: well so easy yeah yeah yeah to drop in the bucket yeah so look how many are putting across europe uh we're putting nine in europe so yeah yeah and each there are 10 megawatts as well across different countries across uh at least six countries okay yeah so it's so nice so i think the policy one of the things you brought up which has really changed over the last little bit is the policy right i mean this must be the one of the hardest permitting the policy now because i think there's a lot of i would say um there's challenges in terms of dealing with specific ordinances yeah where you're getting pushed back from the communities yes um which has become you know it's become an issue it's [00:15:05] Speaker 1: becoming an issue you know it's emotional it's it's also totally misinformed it's very misinformed and i [00:15:11] Speaker 2: think i think i think our part within this space is we needed to do a better job of educating the community yeah right and i don't know i mean i think that's going to be all of us i think there's some work to be done look i don't think anybody expected the pushback you know and i think no the [00:15:27] Speaker 1: pushback is in many cases illogical yeah and incorrect that's right but it doesn't matter unfortunately perception is reality so yeah this this particularly i mean the liquid thing the the water usage one is just the most um bizarre one that is what is so obviously not true but um i think the [00:15:43] Speaker 2: water usage and the potential for radiation i think is a challenge i think the other piece is that we are bringing you know economic growth to these areas they were we're putting people in there to do construction we're leaving people there permanently to maintain the dinner centers you know we're bringing capital in um to markets that really in before you know you know across the us that weren't that didn't have the data centers and i think i look i don't i'm not saying that you know it's panacea but i am saying that we are doing you know a lot of great work i think the other pieces we have to be careful want to make sure that they're green and they're carbon neutral i think that's important but i will tell you i mean overall i think it's uh it's definitely got a lot harder yes you know it's it's i mean i would say the last 24 months have been tricky yes so in your case how on earth are you finding land that's [00:16:37] Speaker 1: so you're getting it's like nearly 20 10 megawatt data centers yeah so we partnered with a great [00:16:43] Speaker 2: developer here in the u.s called opoden based in minnesota they've been fantastic [00:16:47] Speaker 1: um you know uh the guys you know so you find you hunt down somewhere with power somewhere that can get the space then you got to get and i chatted to the gentleman that we caught up with the other day was saying there's all these mineral rights that are decoupled from land rights as well which i found like a whole new industry like in that space which is fascinating particularly in texas [00:17:08] Speaker 2: well in texas you can actually own mineral rights which is different without the land without the link yeah that's right that's exactly right it's quite interesting so someone someone has the right to drill a hole through your data somebody else's somebody else's land exactly and find oil that the oil is theirs but the land is somebody else's have chosen to drill a hole through your data center [00:17:28] Speaker 1: through all your chips in there to get to whatever's beneath it and that's right and i just might use that that's right exactly it it is ah no it is and uh you know so i think but uh you know i think you [00:17:39] Speaker 2: met drew the other day from opoden who's been you know drew and brian have been you know driving force for us helping us they're out there sourcing the land you know we we uh we look at the design to make sure it's efficient for and and obviously the hyper the hyperscaler we partner with approves that it's their design they want to make sure it's the most efficient use of of of the space um you know and look it uh we got to look out for the obstacles like some some areas where we've had to pivot so so can [00:18:07] Speaker 1: you get like let's say you get how do you get the power bits to it or do you come with the ability to access or do you have to build into a grid like what yeah so we've been primarily looking for [00:18:18] Speaker 2: where we can in these markets specific power land right and they've got the power running by to that [00:18:24] Speaker 1: what do they have to put in i don't even know what happens yeah so it depends you know we want to [00:18:30] Speaker 2: make sure that we can get you know the first the first priority is to see if we can get grid you know if [00:18:36] Speaker 1: not if a grid there's there's already a power line running by and there might not be it might not be [00:18:40] Speaker 2: we just need to make sure that we can build a power line or a substation and then they can supply that much that's right and then ensuring that they can give us 10 megawatts and 10 what what does even 10 [00:18:50] Speaker 1: megawatts look like is that like a single power a lot of them well you know the way that the way that [00:18:55] Speaker 2: we've we're building obviously dual feeds to ensure that there's completely diverse um and you know but [00:19:02] Speaker 1: you know look i mean if you think about plus diesel gen backups and all that that's all of that yeah [00:19:07] Speaker 2: no we need to make sure that we're all set with that and then obviously you know crit we're on the critical list for yeah for uh for everything for specifically for diesel uh supply supply and things [00:19:19] Speaker 1: like that by the way it's worth touching on that people probably don't realize that um when there's a problem with power it's diesel starts getting diverted to certain locations and so you need to be on the priority list you know they want to send it to a hospital they want to send it to the government [00:19:34] Speaker 2: whatever something something and then data centers need to be on there too because we are spinning up critical data with these facilities you know we got to make sure everybody gets their netflix you know [00:19:44] Speaker 1: it's so important but you got a handemonium you can't watch your show that's important you know [00:19:50] Speaker 2: that diesel rerouted ready exactly exactly no it's important so uh but yeah we have to be on the critical list i mean i think uh you know during covid most data center workers were on the essential employee list yeah as well so uh because you had to go in yeah i mean um i ran a business which was called recovery point which 30 plus percent of the business was uh uh federal government backup yeah it was backup recovery yeah so um and uh it was you know we were on the essential work employee list so and worker list so that was really important and you know i think we're going to continue to see that i mean the more the more we digitize everything the more data centers are relevant and and and michael you run an incredible company you pass an enormous i mean i can't even imagine how many bits you pass it's just millions you know and you know similar to you what you're doing is the critical data that's being passed over here i mean hospital records you know whatever yeah that's right lots of no clicks lots of shows on but i think it's important that people realize that you know at we all joking aside yes there are other things besides content entire markets run [00:21:03] Speaker 1: across the trading platforms all healthcare records and how we come across it military yeah government critical infrastructure power generation like movements in terms of what pricing it needs to be like it doesn't matter it just everything runs through these pieces that's that's exactly right [00:21:17] Speaker 2: and i think is we're and more and more is going to run through that as we take sort of legacy applications or legacy work projects and then they're going to be digitized it the continued use of SD-WAN fiber towers data centers is going to be more more relevant [00:21:35] Speaker 1: it never stops yeah no it's never going to stop so i'm going to keep going in the trend yeah building because like this is a really interesting space the data centers had become cool uh but then everyone's jumped into the space people have realized that it's not that easy to build yeah um tell me something like everyone's been searching for 30 megawatt plus up to gigawatts of power do you fit into a spot where 10 megawatts is a little bit easier than trying to fight with the the the folks that are going to gigawatt campus 500 megawatt campus is that i'm assuming fighting for that is going to be almost impossible because there's just so many big companies doing it is that why you can fit into that space or it's just i don't know like how we're kind of we're a bit under the radar at this yeah space um you know which is perfect i know it's right and it's actually rare that a hyperscaler needs that but it's more the specific um use case you're solving for is unique and that's as opposed to saying yeah gigawatt of all these chips that all sit in one location which can be super hard to fly and build massive but this is [00:22:33] Speaker 2: like you've sort of tetris your way into it we have and you know looking at a data center it's kind of like tetris one cabin open yeah it's exactly the same but yeah we i think we were fortunate that had we gone probably 20 to 30 megawatts it would have been a lot more difficult we would have i think policy issues would have been a lot more critical and challenging right now where we sit and 10 it's not i mean how big are they like in terms of size uh football field so look so we take down roughly 15 acres um so if you think about that but yeah i mean it's it's in the range we take additional land in case we want to do expansion um want to make sure but uh you know it's a couple hundred thousand we can build up to a couple hundred thousand we'll probably start with a hundred thousand square feet it all depends on you know we want to obviously make sure the cooling's right yeah you know and i think but we we do have a standard design and we we overbuy in terms of land just in case if we want to spend right i mean yeah the interesting piece is that you start with 10 and next thing you know you're halfway through your building you say hey i need 30. yeah and can you is it easy enough to get access to it i think the additional tower is going to be challenging for the next two to three years yeah but uh we'll start with our 10 and then we'll see see where we go from there and is it more [00:23:51] Speaker 1: that the infrastructure can deliver up to 30 but the supply side needs to just give you an allocation is that what like like what's the difference between going from 10 to 30 for example is it that you need to upgrade the physical cables coming or is it that no actually it's the whoever supply or whichever grid you're sucking it down from needs to say no we have more [00:24:10] Speaker 2: capacity or i think it's a combination of both right we're gonna have to change you know uh the rack density will change you know depend because we're probably going to want more you know more higher dense yes um we'll have to go back to the to the uh the power of the utility and we'll have to change that do we need to build a substation no um there's a lot of different requirements once you go from [00:24:33] Speaker 1: that and a substation you need to build to take like um like high voltage transmission lines yeah and [00:24:38] Speaker 2: the down is that what that's for yeah and i mean it's distribution right so i think i think what we're we're going to want to do is depending on you know you it's all about proximity where where you want to build you know some sometimes you don't need a substation neck right next to you but sometimes you're going to want to have it i mean i think it's i think it's important that as we build uh there's a plan for potential future yeah yeah and look if we look at it by building a substation that it gives us more optionality right and we say okay then we you know we can do these types of extensions i think the key is really you never want to have a single point of failure so um you want to make sure that we have at least five to six fiber providers coming in for for uh all coming at a different path yeah all coming in different paths in different in different ducts and different trenching um we want to make sure we're completely diverse from a power feed perspective um and then what is your diesel [00:25:36] Speaker 1: how long do you need to run something like that yeah i mean look we want to have access for a number [00:25:41] Speaker 2: of days yeah um and you know uh so and we want to make sure we're on critical list um you want to make sure you also have pathway access to get into the facility yeah um that we're not building you know like in the middle of woods that we can't have access uh yeah and that the streets etc are accessible um because like this is the part that's it gets it gets it gets yeah more complicated once you start [00:26:08] Speaker 1: to think through this yeah i mean i think you put all these you need to have all these things it gets [00:26:12] Speaker 2: really tricky i think you and i've talked about this is there was just so much movement of capital into this space right and i think everybody wants to continue to move into the space but i'm not sure uh you know look and this is folks who are sort of new investors in the space that really need to understand you know what the mechanics are right until because you just hey i'll just dump money in here and and but i don't really you know follow yeah it's easy just it yeah start building yeah well i [00:26:42] Speaker 1: found what i what i found really odd is i think you know there's plenty of companies can get into construction and build as in you you outsource to a construction company we do we outsource to a construction company but so it's surprising to see them get it wrong that's what i was really surprised at the fcw to hear multiple folks come up with these like data centers that are randomly built yep huge amounts of capital gone into them you would think that the easy part is to do a high consultant and build me a data center spec and hit all these certain requirements but obviously it's for whatever reason not occurring that's really bizarre to me because i'm sure that's an easy problem i thought that would be an easier pro the design should be an easier problem to solve i think the [00:27:22] Speaker 2: challenge you have is there's been this movement to get into the data center space of builders construction folks that you know these are first time so no yeah and that's a challenge we partnered with optin instead of miss a fantastic group they've been doing this for quite a number of years they've been building data center they've been building data center for quite a number of years um and i think that they not only they're familiar they're doing it for multiple hyperscalers yeah so i mean they're they know their way around i think and look we you know we're fortunate that uh hyperscaler we partnered with knew them at familiarity with them and it actually ended up and they'll have a certain spec as well that's that's right that's right and they can do soup to nuts design build construction and operate for us yeah yeah right so wow so we've got you know incredible partnership with them yeah so [00:28:12] Speaker 1: you build um and then i assume these are long-term leases that happen these are long-term leases yeah yeah yeah yeah these are long-term releases it's like gold at the moment so this is long-term [00:28:22] Speaker 2: leases and you know investment grade tenant you know um we're in the midst of uh doing a debt raise on this um which is exciting and yeah you're going through i mean you do you do this you you're i'm a [00:28:35] Speaker 1: novice at this you're not in this space we're publicly traded we're asked we can raise capital on the market we did so for the acquisition exactly which is incredible someone else does all that for me you know i just instruct people and then bankers appear it's like yeah yeah no we're i mean look [00:28:53] Speaker 2: we're uh it's interesting companies we're a very small we're a small group we're no it's we're eight [00:28:57] Speaker 1: people it's uh we outsource you're an eight you're eight people you're building almost 19 10 megawatt data centers all across the united states and across europe um a couple of years well we have 24 [00:29:09] Speaker 2: months to do this so we're easy that's why you're not sleeping hey shoveling gradually and that's why [00:29:16] Speaker 1: you and i were working out at 4 a.m yesterday for the listeners who are listening to this uh watching it this banana i get a text message at 4 a.m 4 10 a.m it just says uh you know a word that was uh suggesting that i'm weak and then saying get down to the gym man and you made it well the weird part is i am not a morning person but i was so jet-lagged i was awake and silly looking at my phone i was like i'm not going back to sleep now this guy's challenging me so i go down there thinking that i'll beat him uh i'm younger and he's actually punching out way more so it's like i got schooled well our [00:29:51] Speaker 2: good friend mr shucks we'll give him a shout out right now um you know we're waiting for a push-up competition with him as well so yeah henry where are you come on yeah we're calling you out right now but uh look i i think this i i mean as do you i think we get excited by this industry right yeah this [00:30:10] Speaker 1: is only well it's it's so exciting now because it's incredible yeah i mean the the pace that [00:30:16] Speaker 2: we're moving at now it's not it's just nuts it's just us but and i don't you tell me but my view is we have exceptional growth to five to six more years at least i can't see the it's slowing i can only see [00:30:28] Speaker 1: it accelerating at the moment yeah um this is this whole discussion about the bubble yeah it's a bubble is a bubble i mean it's like everyone in the moment in time would say oh it's not a bubble everything's amazing no matter what bubble anyone's been in but the thing i liken it back to is i remember cloud came into existence sort of 14 15 years ago everyone started getting to that so it's what it's what megaport was founded on so it's all cloud pieces this and the clouds exploded they just kept scaling and it's like the cloud bubble when's the bubble going to stop it at all this but eventually what happened is people stopped saying when's the bubble going to pop because they just got so big and then they were just punching out 20 to 30 growth per annum so what the bubble popping so to speak was just that it wasn't now at a growth rate of that it was now just more consistent growth but but by that stage 30 on the top of something huge is massive so i suspect ai is going to do that and but it's by the time it's right sizes so it's so big and the the challenges is so different in that it's so much power requirement there's so much build it's like there's a natural dampener on how fast we can grow when sas grew there was no restrictor um if you think of every sas company they could literally grow grow at infinity almost because you could sit all your software on aws you could scale it anywhere in the world you could sell it on usd and just infinite growth would be okay it could actually withstand that uh that's fine when amazon's doing it and it's a small amount of compute required for software any software business this is rate limited by how much physical hardware can be actually powered on yeah and nvidia chips are not cheap so there's a huge capital constraint that well the capital is actually available but i think it's how you monitor and manage the capital is key startups need access to them but they can't get the capital so then there's companies appearing to sort of provide in all these different ways there's weird funding mechanisms going on there's a sea of it but at the end of it there's this throttling in terms of how many how many gps they can turn on and how many nvidia can pump out and then how much um even this the the memory and just lip drives they can't get enough drives to turn these things on so they can actually get the nvidia chips in there but they haven't got a drive to make it work and without that one piece of the puzzle you take one piece of all of this giant jigsaw puzzle out and it stops working so then there's this natural dampener occurring we saw it with anthropic like we just saw the other day anthropic literally had to start dampening everything down they just didn't have enough gpus to hit and then they went did that deal with elon taking out all the x that'll get them for like 10 minutes before the next piece of growth so now everything's sort of this wave so then people say well the bubbles coming still there's still just not enough build coming for that jensen called out like a trillion in chip spend this year just from the hyperscalers last year's half a billion this year's a trillion the hyperscalers wrapped up and gave their forward looking guy or their guidance in effect not forward looking but they just gave guidance around capex spend which are lights and that's going to come through then there's all the neo clouds that are going to have to build for all those other folks so i don't know it's like naturally getting slowed almost in a [00:33:38] Speaker 2: weird way even though it's growing so fast well i think what's you know you talk about companies value company valuations today i mean you know apple's at four billion four trillions yeah these these are exceptional here's five some five trillion plus you know i think though the one thing that we've we're spending a lot of time thinking and talking about ai which is incredible it's a great you know it is going to be that's going to continue to be the future but not to be sort of forgotten is that cloud's still [00:34:05] Speaker 1: going at 30 to 40 percent a year huge amounts of compute getting deployed like unbelievable quantities [00:34:12] Speaker 2: the the other thing that's really interesting is hunt the it adoption of fully outsourced services is growing at like a half a percent it's growing at a very small place so the global idea and adoption of i.t outsource is still huge yeah i mean there's so much we're in the early innings yeah yeah you know and then lastly so i think there's sort of four areas it's ai it's the it adoption enterprise adoption of i.t outsource service it's you know cloud compute and we're still content is going to continue to grow i mean we're being broadcast it's going through somebody's fiber data center tower etc so there's sort of these four buckets we talk a lot about ai but there's three other buckets that are still growing [00:34:56] Speaker 1: 30 percent a year correct and they all live in the data center yeah that's right yeah so that they all need fiber they all need the data center they all need a cpu a gpu some storage or a network that's [00:35:05] Speaker 2: right yeah i mean it's a great business to be in you know and i think you know the more we did the dc [00:35:11] Speaker 1: side's far more like a real estate play it's 100 yeah so it's real estate for tech that's right the other elements that they put in it is tech um but it's it's super complicated in terms of the designs now [00:35:22] Speaker 2: with those liquid cores so it's just i don't know i think the complexity has changed right we used to say you know it's space power cross connects it's not just that i mean you're talking about if you think about where companies work you had maybe somebody who focused on in 10 years ago you had somebody who focused on power uh and that person had three other jobs the company yeah now you have you have a data center companies that have 40 people in power yeah 30 people in power really oh [00:35:49] Speaker 1: yeah yeah yeah it's such it's so important is that just always close to the amount of power they need [00:35:53] Speaker 2: to get to a single cabinet is that what it's working with the utilities wrong community it's working with you know whether you're working with alternative use power you know whether you're you're trying to investigate into kin renewables you know are there other sources and other means i mean the other areas policy you didn't really talk about policy before now you have people you have groups that are set up for policy i mean i think this is look it's just a maturation of the business right and uh we've moved through this which is great look i think we're creating more jobs you know which is great [00:36:25] Speaker 1: um we're creating we chat on that panel and and your mate was talking about the the electricians the [00:36:31] Speaker 2: sparkies that are we so we so there's some fairly significant builds going on abilene texas right i believe that the electricians are being flown in there from 48 different states because we so if you you know moves for data center space you know we have experts and you know the plumbing and you know electricians there's going to be liquid yeah distribute power how they yeah exactly and i mean i think there's going to be there's going to be a shortage of that type of skill set so actually he was explaining [00:37:03] Speaker 1: something that was quite interesting in that a lot of industries can get support like hands and feet support that aren't experts at a certain thing but you can teach someone to do something pretty quickly like that's right splice fiber there's no degree for it that takes four years there's no whatever you can teach someone you can start to get them but electricians says what is that four six years or whatever on the training just to get to that point yeah i mean i think to have that [00:37:25] Speaker 2: expertise yeah and especially from a data center perspective yeah that does take time but there are some there are some areas that you can work in this space that require less training and less schooling that i think also then you can obviously mature through the space and learn more yeah which [00:37:41] Speaker 1: is creating the you know new waves of jobs and so then everyone's carrying on that ai is going to retake all these jobs and this is the piece that i find funny i'm far more of an optimist around this [00:37:50] Speaker 2: yeah i mean look i i think it's going to be ai in conjunction with human development human interaction right i don't think you're gonna you know i think that there will be some jobs that ai will make more efficient right um i think there but there's going to be a lot of you need to have human development i mean i don't think you you know unless we go to robotic sports which uh which i don't think people people will find is fun yeah you know and exciting um you know that's that's you know there's sports there's there's so many things that but look i think the influential the only thing that's going to happen i believe with ai it probably needs to is there has to be some regulatory around it because you're talking about financial training and things like that and using you know the efforts of some type of ai you know algorithm that yeah can obviously influence and so you know look but look at look at the other thing healthcare it can influence and create like you know can we find better and quicker ways to prevent or or treat true specific diseases yeah things like that that was always the case it's [00:38:51] Speaker 1: like um if you think something's going to replace something what usually happens it just speeds it up which means humans do it more and that's and then and then we just do more and we get better it's like someone gave me the example an mri it's so hard to do it's so expensive takes so long to look at it if i makes that really really fast then we just do lots more of them that's right like i've probably had one in my life you know we might do it every month or whatever very nice yeah i think you know [00:39:16] Speaker 2: 20 years ago computers were gonna place replace everybody yeah we use computers but i think not [00:39:21] Speaker 1: replacing everybody yeah exactly so i'm i don't i don't think that's a big worry so what else is [00:39:26] Speaker 2: interesting in your world what else you got gone yeah what else am i got going on well you know i think uh a lot a lot of engagement with this project yeah that'd be huge it's a big one um you know on the personal level you got to keep the fitness up yeah you know you and i are big big no i'm only catching [00:39:43] Speaker 1: you up i had i was i had this is my new yeah look i got a little wood i got fit this year that's i love [00:39:50] Speaker 2: i love the word yeah that's great i got to get one of those um look i think this is you know one of the areas that i've been passionate about uh within this space is uh my involvement with ptc yeah that's so cool i've been involved with you to see this i think i think this is my 30th ptc so you know what [00:40:06] Speaker 1: is it i'm chairman chairman of ptc chairman yeah i'm the chairman i try to get them to change that to godfather no one they weren't listening to me yeah i said this how good would it be if they just yeah we're officially that's something i said to you as soon as you're from my as my first act as chairman i'm changing the title to godfather from henceforth that shall be known as the godfather of ptc we'll rewrite the bio exactly exactly rewrite them you can i'm serious right exactly that'd be [00:40:37] Speaker 2: great now i'm passionate about ptc it's a non-profit um and ptc's evolved like dc i mean i think i've [00:40:45] Speaker 1: already been in megaport three years and in the last three years just that the change of who's turning up [00:40:50] Speaker 2: is like completely yeah it's the clientele the attendees etc have been incredible we've expanded a bond you know it's adjacencies the data center to the fiber space to the tower space cloud providers cloud providers neoclouds we had 10 000 plus people there this year yeah you know we want to continue [00:41:08] Speaker 1: bankers funders private equity you name it yeah yeah yeah more suits swirling around yeah you can't wear a [00:41:18] Speaker 2: suit and wire it's ridiculous it is weird suit and tie come on who knows yeah yeah i mean i think the one thing that's really important about the mission of ptc is the the it's a non-profit we give back to the community we invest a lot in the pacific we invest we provide uh education to up-and-coming managers i you know we have this uh class called ptc academy we've partnered with uh columbia university where they bring the professors from the business school so look i'm super passionate about this um i've been uh part of the planning committee for the last 20 years really yeah yeah i know you know when you you you know you know i told you i've been around you know i'm pushing i'm pushing walker status you know so uh yeah but uh you're all just getting started i'm excited yeah i'm pretty passionate about that you know and i think that's a it's a great organization brian has uh you know um done a great job you know sharon ran ptc for quite a long time she was amazing brian she retired and brian took over brian's done immense work from turns brian's the ceo i'm sorry brian moon he's done a great job of kind of working through you know what do we want to see who do we want to you know uh how to curate something that people want to turn up to yeah and i think we we've had different you know i'm you know we're going to personally invite you to uh the alakai which i want to interview you there this time and uh that's our new stage i've got less stories yeah you've got amazing stories we've got amazing stories but i think you know that's where i'm super passionate we have ptc japan coming up next week oh are you going to that too i will be going to japan on tuesday stop traveling [00:43:00] Speaker 1: yeah you got you got 19 data centers you gotta be building and by the way and this is the other thing you you're actually on the board of a lot of different companies i'm on a board of a few [00:43:09] Speaker 2: companies uh i'm on a board of advantage europe i'm on the board of uh spanish europe's data center companies spanish europe is a data center company i'm on a board of amazing little uh it's not little i shouldn't say that it's 1623 farnham which is an interconnect data center yeah in uh in nebraska there's guys they're amazing you're building number two um shout out to bill and uh bill saverne and matt reed brian bradley yeah um brian you uh know i know you're leaving for bahamas because you got a tough job you know um but uh this weekend uh you know i'm on the board of a company called clc which is an 18-wheeler trailer leasing business uh which is yeah mike gore does a great job and that's a wa for uh uh okay is that three of those guys yeah and then i'm on the board of a company called mock uh wireless so that mark networks what is that um my network is a 4g 5g of course uh so much sense and then uh what did i miss i'm on cade lever's board which is yeah that's cool and they've done an incredible job of company started six years ago cade kicked it off actually it was started in australia and then they kicked kicked off here he's done an amazing yeah i mean we use them they make actually [00:44:19] Speaker 1: all of our spaces look cool because they put all the little yeah they put it it's really nice yeah they do he does a great job and all the fiber connections in that that must be just yeah he introduced me to rm williams too so yeah yeah he got some boots i got some boots i got right he's [00:44:36] Speaker 2: um yeah so i'm i'm on that and then we we just uh uh sold connect basically i left that board it was [00:44:42] Speaker 1: yeah a great outcome for that you've moved off that i assume with the new ownership yeah so so new ownership but uh i saw ben he's probably got i think yes yeah he's still gonna stay around for a [00:44:53] Speaker 2: few years or whatever yeah no ben's ben's gonna see it through yeah um he's done anything ben ben's on i mean ben built that on his credit card to a 200 million dollar company yeah it's insane it's [00:45:02] Speaker 1: pretty pretty yeah you know the amount of connections come i mean yeah what was it hundreds of thousands of [00:45:08] Speaker 2: cool it is yeah i mean and the fact you know kudos to him um you know you start you rough it you know i went through that with okolo except he started 10 years earlier than i had 10 years earlier you know i was as i said i'm in you know approaching uh walker realtor status um yeah 50 uh but um yeah no i mean i think and you know the other thing i think you get from working with all these folks is you get to work with really smart entrepreneurs yeah that's so fascinating i mean these guys are these guys are really sharp really creative um and you know it's great to talk about you know for you and i it's pretty lonely at the top yeah yeah and you're like holy cow yeah talk to yeah that's [00:45:49] Speaker 1: hard um you also got something with aussie super as well don't you yeah so aussie super is i'm an [00:45:56] Speaker 2: independent director for them for vantage oh that's okay yeah that's that's that's the link yeah yeah so but spend a lot of time with them um you know going down to australia for for an event that they host in the next couple weeks um they've been they want our bigger investors and so yeah they've been awesome for us yeah they're great you know and i can't say enough about aussie super you know work with uh you know a myriad of different folks in there and uh they've been great there and they've [00:46:22] Speaker 1: also branched out um because they typically i mean they're a superannuation bond in effect so that's what's really interesting about australia is uh 10 of everyone's wealth or income goes to actually these funds which help you retire so the country doesn't have to pay for pensions right forth but with that comes unbelievable amounts of capital inflow constantly and then they're constantly having to deploy that capital so the bizarre thing is like the deployment of capital is like sort of perpetual they then have to figure out where they put that and they have percentages of you know i think it's probably a certain amount as to go to australia and then of that they break down to x percent in you know tech and real estate and you know mining and blah blah blah yeah so in your case they've they've also got international and overseas they also have private so they also have [00:47:07] Speaker 2: advantages oh no is it public data is private um yeah they've invested in a number of other companies they're invested in uh siri and they're invested in uh data bank data bank yeah i saw that as well they're invested in quite a number um and they've made you know that very sharp investment team yeah um you know spend spend a lot of time with those guys they're good people too yeah they're good they're good yeah yeah aussies yeah of course they're eyes it's good one it's actually yeah i don't know go on man so yeah no no look i think uh you know it's exciting to talk about the industry right i mean we're in an industry that i don't see it slowing down as we talked about earlier you know um the one thing i you know i think we're all gonna be of interest and you know to to put another plug in for brian and team at ptc i think ptc is you sort of come there in january and figure out kind of what the tech is yeah yeah it's kind of interesting to see [00:48:01] Speaker 1: hey what's going on you know it's like an uh yeah no i think it was invalid maybe you can tell it it was i think it was originally invented for all the carriers when they first started to start to [00:48:11] Speaker 2: actually you know this yeah right minute was it's time was it was trading minutes so for voice 50 years ago it was almost 48 years ago it was started where east meets west and the middle point was yeah you go and you do minute exchanges for voice track that's hilarious and you talk about accounting [00:48:29] Speaker 1: rates and that's it well nothing's changed we're just changing bits that's right that's whatever maybe now it's um space but yeah it's a great this is the bit of and covet you know we all went home everyone worked on video humans still need to get together um it's and and it's in that um in those discussions you you hear that the little the it's like the water cooler chat but it's between the organizations that's where the the discussions that that are not shared if you get on a video at all it's like that example i told you about just you start hearing a few stories come out about these data centers that actually are not built to spec or not build appropriately and then you're inheriting these space and these companies that are buying them assume that they're going to be delivered at quality space like when we land in a data center we expect we just yes it's going to be built well exactly and then they've got their entire business riding on the fact that this is a time that it's going to be delivered we're going to put our infrastructure and then publish that infrastructure to our customers and all of a sudden it comes along and it's actually not delivered to specs which means you can't deliver it uh and then to the whole company gets like there's a big challenge through it but that's that i've never i hadn't heard that last year last year all i heard was we're out of space and power that's right and the year before that was like things are starting to get like move but last year was like we've sold out completely um and then this year was just like actually the builds that are coming through are random in some instances now there'll be plenty of good ones but it's just like [00:49:53] Speaker 2: an interesting sort of anecdote that i picked up what's interesting now is to try and find a megawatt or two is is almost impossible in most markets it's so i mean that's you know you think about that where you know because we're sourcing basically for 100 200 gigawatt totally but you can't find a [00:50:10] Speaker 1: megawatt we can't for the mag yeah it's grassy there's so many gigawatt builds going on or whatever it is here so i just want a meg i want one one thousandth can i have one cabinet pretty much yeah it's it's really interesting and so then someone was telling me that they're looking i had this company that jumped on they're finding power and space in like um commercial buildings yeah sort of like standard power if there's if there's five megawatts or something i don't know what would be in the building but let's say it's two i want it's only usually one we can put one in here and we could do that are you seeing that as well or do you think [00:50:45] Speaker 2: that is there is folks that are looking at you know industrial builds today that if you can repurpose that industrial build yeah to make a data center that has what about office buildings or something like this is what i heard i think there's some you know there's a bunch of people that are looking at taking malls and converting them into your status yeah because you know there's been we've had a lot of challenges with the malls here in the u.s where yeah in certain areas where they're you know you know we've we've basically you know amazon you know has become irrelevant and so can you can you repurpose that into a data center or something else you know industrial building and so i think we've seen that i think you are i would say less so in new york city will you take an office building because new york city the power power is expensive yeah um we have we are a single point of failure here as well um just because it's a power distribution uh just because bridges and you know oh yeah it's it's easier uh to probably be in new jersey yeah um and uh yeah you send days yeah well that and you know you know if you know if there's a geopolitical event or something like that or you know some type of activity then you know prohibits you know entry and access um so i think that that that's more relevant but yes i i think that we are in a point where we need to find stranded power yeah [00:52:09] Speaker 1: wherever we can yeah and then the other side is that people are choosing who takes their power like [00:52:15] Speaker 2: that's a lot of it's you know it's it's you know it's basically uh you know if you're a credit [00:52:20] Speaker 1: worthy tenant you get it yeah that's that's the interesting piece that's the funny piece like some of our customers who have scaled so fast they're actually startups that are huge yeah um you know raising huge amounts of skills that are very well funded they're worth you know billions of dollars of market cap but they're still not credit worthy and they don't have a credit component they're credit worthy i suppose but they're they're so new they're so that banks don't have a rating for them or what have you so yeah so it's hard um for them to now figure out what they do in that space [00:52:50] Speaker 2: it's tricky it's tricky i mean it's it's kind of like you know i would not i don't think i'd [00:52:55] Speaker 1: compare it to the 2000 you know yeah that's everyone's saying it's stuff like that i don't [00:53:00] Speaker 2: i don't agree with that different you know it's i think it's quite different i think well there's [00:53:03] Speaker 1: revenue in this that's probably different yeah i mean people are making money yeah right you know yeah well it's just just market cap as with no money that's exactly right right and you're basing [00:53:14] Speaker 2: it off of the future right i mean there is actual income coming in like that you know that's what we need to realize i think the challenge today is everybody wants a uh you know investment grade [00:53:25] Speaker 1: tenant right yes they will want triple a yeah and doing microsoft yeah that's yeah it's but yeah but um the interesting thing about the fiber was most of it was unlit back in 2000s these data centers are getting utilized like the power is getting the chips are turned on they are sucking you know power and they're doing something right so you're not turning them on and not doing something with them they have to be doing something yeah i think one thing is that you know is [00:53:52] Speaker 2: unrealized today is that we've sort of there was this thought of data center data center days there there is a huge amount of emphasis that we need to put on in the future and how important fiber is yeah right i mean there is no wireless alternative from a connectivity standpoint today correct and so i think that the point that you know your company and others are becoming so much more relevant um today with the massive usage and pass how passing you can get it yeah exactly i mean it's you know not only is it hey i need you know myself i need my servers i need my x i need my power i need my hvac etc i need my fiber to you know and i think that's really important to kind of think through when you're building your dcs how do you figure that piece out we make sure we when we send a site location to the specific hypercellular we work with it has to pass through their fiber team okay so their fiber team has to [00:54:50] Speaker 1: approve so they either figure out they could run they run to it or someone or there's or there's three or [00:54:55] Speaker 2: four local providers or five providers there might be a build as well yeah so why don't you keep doing that [00:55:02] Speaker 1: then because you know what i feel like is coming is inference and an inference this is one thing we've found with our customers is we had this statement is ai yeah i don't know if you've heard this from a video like ai doesn't care where it goes to school which was this statement about a year ago or two years ago where training was so big and they needed all these gigawatt scale data centers and then they put all these chips and have them super dense inside these data centers and then the statement was it doesn't care where it goes to school and the meaning behind that was it didn't need to be located in new york from a latency perspective it could be in australia in tasmania or wherever it is in some location a long way away which was true or is true yep that's right but what's different now is inference is actually another step not only does it not care where it goes to school it actually doesn't care if the chips are all together at the same school and that means that inference can have every chip operating independently as long as it's connected to the internet so in theory you could stick all these chips in every in you know you could have 124 chips servers with eight chips in each one 1024 128 servers sorry and then you could split them to 124 different data centers in theory and run that now what i think is coming is instead of just having to having to have a gigawatt campus where everything's so dense and all right next to each other for training but i think the 10 megawatts or five megawatt campuses constantly appearing all over the place is enough to keep running enough inference listen you could probably get i don't know um call it 124 uh b300 um servers would probably be like 1.7 megawatts so you multiply that you could get x in five whatever that number works out yeah that's a lot to do what you need to do so i think if we could i think there's a space to keep doing that i completely agree i mean [00:56:51] Speaker 2: look i think we're going to see more and more of these i think we started with edge you know and that didn't it didn't pan out as much yeah well it was this it was more around trying to solve for [00:57:03] Speaker 1: latency and people probably don't care that much that's right and i think what we've done is but it will it will for for inference where they just don't care no no it will and it's but i think what [00:57:13] Speaker 2: we've done is the edge the development of the current data center providers equinox digital tierpoint their data centers have become edge data centers already because they they brought in a number of fiber yeah and so and actually the density is not high no no no the density is not high you're talking about a you know eight to ten kva per cabinet but i do think as you touch on this we are going to see deployments of five to ten megawatts across the globe to to handle this inference yeah that that's [00:57:43] Speaker 1: coming and we're not there yet yeah but that is a huge opportunity i feel like that's the next way it is and i feel like everyone's just focused on on this largest yeah it's a large bill and it makes sense you go after the big monsters to start with and the funding comes from it because it's triple a all the rest of it but we're seeing huge demand for just just give me one mega or give me two [00:58:02] Speaker 2: megawatts and we're going to continue to see that yeah and i think that we're in the initial stages of that right um incubating that process over the next 12 to 18 that it's probably like maybe 36 months [00:58:18] Speaker 1: it's definitely gonna happen uh dc's building that or they're all just going for the big end [00:58:22] Speaker 2: like i actually don't hear many not yet no no yeah i mean i think i think there's such a huge focus like a year odd building 10 is that like a weird thing i mean it's definitely unique yeah um it wouldn't have been like a few years ago but now it's a few i mean yeah 10 megawatts a few years ago was like a giant yeah it was a giant you know but i do think it will change you know we'll see that development going more and more as you talk about inference i don't think that that's there yet there's a lot of discussion around it but it's happening it'll have coming yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's definitely you're gonna keep building or yeah yeah i mean look i think i think what's the point we are very very happy with our partner and opportunity yeah you got a lot and the hyperscaler we're working with but uh you know i think we want to focus on this project right yeah it's a big it's a big one it's a big one it's a big one it's only 19 days yeah it's a lot of work congrats man thank you so much appreciate it been great to catch up you uh i'm in awe of what you guys are doing i'm gonna thank congrats on your acquisition because it's incredibly incredibly it was perfectly i mean it couldn't have been better and i think you got a great team in latitude yeah you have an awesome megaport team yeah and i think you know i i love to see good people successful and uh you're doing a great job running this company and i think you know uh i'm i'm the old dinosaur here and i like to watch the young guys actually kick ass perfect thank you legend thanks