The After Show: Heidi Firkus Case Update (Stranger in the House)

[0:04] Hello, everybody. Welcome to 2020 The After Show. I'm Debra Roberts. And as always, I am so delighted that you're spending some time with us as we pull back the curtain on the stories that we're doing here at 2020 and let you get an idea of how we put these things together. [0:19] Now, today, we're going to take a look at one of our most talked about episodes. It was called Stranger in the House. And I reported on this story. I went to Minnesota to talk about it, and the details have just stuck with me. [0:31] This one centers on the really sad and tragic death of Heidi Furcus, a 25-year-old woman from St. Paul, Minnesota. Her friends described her as bubbly and caring and outgoing, and she was deeply dedicated to her faith. [0:45] Heidi and her husband, Nick, both pretty religious people, were married in 2005, but they met as youth group leaders in their church. They were young. And then a few years later, they got married and bought a house together and began what looked like it was going to be a bright future. [1:01] But that future... [1:01] That future was cut short on the morning of April 25th, 2010, after Heidi frantically makes a 911 call to authorities to report someone she said was an intruder in her home. [1:15] 911. [1:19] I'm trying to break into my home. [1:21] Cindy, are you in St. Paul? [1:23] I'm in St. Paul. [1:24] What address are you at? [1:27] Minnehaha Avenue. [1:29] Minnehaha. Someone's trying... [1:31] Then, a minute later, 65 seconds to be exact, another frantic call. [1:39] From inside the home to 911, but this time, it was Nick saying that his wife had been shot. [1:45] What's the problem? [1:58] What? [1:59] It's me. [2:06] Okay. [2:10] Nick? [2:11] Who shot you? [2:16] No. [2:31] Well, police get to the scene, and Heidi is lying dead on the floor in a doorway at the back of the house. Nick is also suffering from a gunshot wound to his leg. He survives. And, of course, you can only imagine the community is stunned. [2:54] And it would take... [2:55] 10 years before police would finally make an arrest in the case. And, in the process, they began to unravel something we just couldn't believe, an investigation that proved that you really never truly know what's going on behind closed doors. [3:11] As I mentioned, I went to St. Paul to dig into this story, to visit the crime scene, to talk to detectives who wouldn't give up on this case, but most important, Nick's second wife, Rachel, the woman who knew him pretty well. [3:25] And met him just a few months after his wife's murder. And then they got married. Then she actually wound up helping police crack this case in the most devastating way. [3:35] You may have seen it on our episode on 2020, but today, there are portions of this story that we're going to bring to you that you did not get a chance to see or to hear. [3:45] There's some secret recordings that you have not heard before, and we're going to tell you all about them and how authorities were able to track down Heidi's killer. [3:53] It's a lot to untangle. [3:55] And who better to help me? [3:55] And who better to help me do it than 2020 producer Brooke Stanglin. [3:59] Hi, Brooke. [3:59] Hi. [3:59] You and I have worked on a lot of stories together, and one of the things I enjoy about this podcast is people get a chance to know how these stories come together, who the folks are behind the scenes, and passionate folks like you who book a lot of these stories. [4:13] Because people often ask me, how do you get these stories? [4:15] And oftentimes, it's folks like you who heard about a story, and you are just on it like a dog with a bone. [4:22] And you kind of have a spidey sense, I think. [4:25] You kind of have a spidey sense, I think, about what feels like a good story, don't you? [4:28] Yeah. [4:29] I mean, I originally am from the Midwest, so I actually had some people who knew the couple at the center of this story, and it had all of the elements of a very mysterious, lots of twists and turns, but also there's a real soul to this story in Rachel, who was the through line for us in telling this story. [4:51] And she's just an incredible mother and human. [4:55] And I knew when I met her that it would be... [4:59] There was something... [4:59] She is... [5:00] Something different here. [5:01] Yeah. [5:01] Well, let's go back to Heidi and Nick. [5:04] So you're from the Midwest, as you said. [5:06] Usually, we have not, or I have not, heard of these stories, and you all bring them to us. [5:11] And this story, you learned about pretty early on. [5:14] You understood this whole world of the religious community, young couple who met in church. [5:19] What did you learn about the two of them when you first started digging? [5:23] Yeah. [5:24] I think faith is... [5:25] It's sort of a character in this story, almost. [5:27] It wasn't a Sunday thing. [5:29] It was a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday thing. [5:33] It was... [5:34] All of their friendships were based in the church. [5:36] They were leaders in their church. [5:38] Let's go back to the morning of the murder. [5:41] The two of them were supposed to be in church. [5:43] They didn't show up, and that was the first tip-off to people that something was wrong. [5:47] So we go back to the home, and as I said, this 911 call, police are alerted, something has happened. [5:54] And right away... [5:55] When we were talking about this story, a little red flag went up for me, [5:59] because Nick told police that there was somebody at the house [6:02] that it seemed somebody was trying to break into the house. [6:05] And then he comes down the stairs with his wife, and he's got a gun, he's got a shotgun, [6:09] and he says there was a little bit of a struggle, and the gun goes off, [6:13] and his wife winds up getting hit, and then he gets hit later. [6:17] My first thought when we were talking about this story was, as someone, [6:21] and maybe this is very old-fashioned, but if my husband hears... [6:25] Now, we hear something downstairs in a very chivalrous way. [6:28] I'm going to think he's going to go down and investigate it, [6:30] and then tell me to go hide or stay put. [6:33] But Nick talks about bringing her downstairs with him, [6:36] and that had to be kind of strange to police right away. [6:39] I know when you heard it, you thought it was strange. [6:41] Yes. In front of him, he's armed. [6:43] She is not armed. [6:44] There's potentially an intruder with a weapon. [6:49] At that point, you have no idea what they have. [6:51] And I think that was something that tipped investigators off initially right away, [6:54] because it... [6:56] Logic is missing there. [6:57] And even the police said in his interrogation, [6:59] you would have a right to defend yourself if someone is breaking into your home. [7:03] So that was the first of many things that were like, this doesn't... [7:07] That didn't sound right, didn't add up. [7:08] And the fact that he was grazed. [7:11] She was shot dead, and then he's grazed. [7:13] Police found that a little bit strange too, right? [7:15] Yes, yes, yeah. [7:16] And it was, you know, later on, we realized that the way in which he said it happened [7:21] couldn't have happened. [7:23] So the trajectory of the bullets, [7:26] and all of that, but it was, it was suspicious. [7:28] What got me in this story, [7:30] and we've seen this happen in a lot of these stories too, [7:33] where the person who police are sort of suspecting gives a description. [7:38] And so Nick gives them a description of this alleged intruder. [7:42] And it's a black man in his 30s who's wearing a hoodie, [7:47] a very specific description of this guy. [7:49] And ultimately, you know, it does sort of pan out [7:52] that there is a person who sort of fits this description, [7:55] a homeless... [7:56] And then, you know, he's in the sky, and, you know, police go to look into this, [7:59] and then they discover, like, there's no way. [8:01] Well, what's so interesting about this is the police wanted Nick to come in [8:06] and sit with their sketch artist. [8:08] He refused to do that. [8:09] He wanted to do it on his terms. [8:11] So he did it with his defense attorney. [8:13] And if you Google break-ins in this area at 6 a.m., [8:19] this man's face comes up. [8:21] He had been arrested for breaking and entering at 6 a.m. in this neighborhood. [8:25] So he... [8:26] He was very thoughtful in how he did this intentionally [8:30] because he knew that it would be believable [8:33] because here's a guy who has been arrested for... [8:36] And thankfully, that man happened to have been incarcerated. [8:38] Yeah, because otherwise he might have been picked up for this. [8:41] He would have. [8:41] Yeah. [8:42] He absolutely would have. [8:43] So police discovered this guy's already in jail, so that doesn't fly. [8:47] And it was also very interesting that Nick had already gotten an attorney. [8:50] And oftentimes in these stories, you know, [8:52] when police are first questioning the spouse, you know, [8:56] it's like talking, right? [8:57] But then Nick starts to... [8:59] His story, they're talking to him, and he's... [9:02] Police are starting to think his story's not adding up. [9:05] And he lawyers up. [9:05] And then he lawyers up. [9:06] The next day. [9:07] And then he won't talk. [9:08] Nope. [9:08] And that didn't help police at all. [9:10] No. [9:10] So they're looking. [9:11] There's no suspect. [9:12] Heidi Furcus is dead. [9:14] Her husband... [9:15] To police, look a little suspicious. [9:17] Yeah. [9:17] But so far, they have nothing. [9:18] All right, Brooke, we got more to cover. [9:20] Yes. [9:20] More to cover. [9:21] Yes. [9:22] As I said, there's no suspect, no real evidence [9:24] to help police find the intruder. [9:26] So what next? [9:28] Heidi's family wants answers. [9:29] Her friends want answers. [9:30] And police just don't have them. [9:32] But within months, Nick is actually moving on with his life. [9:36] And we're going to talk about that. [9:37] The widower meets a new woman who would actually ultimately [9:40] play a key role in identifying Heidi's killer. [9:44] When we come back, you're going to hear from her [9:46] and secret recordings. [9:49] You don't want to miss this. [9:50] So don't go anywhere. [10:01] Hi there, and welcome back to 2020 The After Show. [10:03] I am sitting here. [10:05] I'm here with Brooke Stanglin, one of our 2020 producers, [10:07] who helped book this story that we worked on. [10:10] We're taking a closer look at the case of Heidi Furcus. [10:13] Her husband, Nick Furcus, was shot. [10:16] She was killed in a burglary inside the couple's home [10:18] back in 2010. [10:20] Police are looking. [10:21] There are no suspects, no real evidence. [10:23] The husband's story isn't quite adding up. [10:26] Yet it would take 10 years before they would finally [10:28] make an arrest in this case. [10:31] And it turns out, prime suspect was hiding [10:33] much closer to home. [10:34] Much closer to home. [10:35] So Nick is this guy who's mourning, you know, reportedly. [10:39] But yet he meets this woman. [10:41] And within no time, within months, [10:43] they have got a serious relationship. [10:45] They're talking about getting married. [10:46] I mean, they get married in 2012. [10:48] How did no one think this was strange? [10:52] Well, so Rachel is actually the sister [10:55] of one of Heidi's very good friends. [10:57] So she was coming out of a relationship [10:59] and coming back to St. Paul. [11:02] A pretty tumultuous relationship, too. [11:03] Traumatic for her. [11:04] Traumatic. [11:04] Traumatic. [11:05] And so they had a trauma bond, essentially. [11:08] And, you know, Rachel was seen by people [11:11] who believed Nick was the victim. [11:14] Rachel was really seen as sort of an angel [11:16] that was coming in and helping him [11:17] through this really rough time. [11:19] And I think she was sort of in shock [11:21] with, you know, coming out of a difficult relationship [11:24] herself. [11:24] So they bonded over that. [11:27] And I think it just became accepted. [11:29] It wasn't really frowned upon by anyone in Nick's circle [11:33] that he was moving on. [11:34] And what was interesting, [11:35] is that she said he didn't talk much about Heidi. [11:38] He wouldn't talk about his ex-wife or late wife. [11:42] Rachel found it a little strange, [11:44] but just thought maybe he was just an uptight guy. [11:46] But then she had been through a lot, as you said. [11:48] So they sort of trauma bonded. [11:50] And so the family just thought it was really lovely [11:52] that he had found somebody and he was moving on. [11:55] And she seemed to be just as happy to move on [11:57] and get married. [11:58] Yeah. [11:59] I think she definitely started to have those little whispers [12:01] that then turn into, you know, [12:03] get louder and louder. [12:05] If we don't listen to them. [12:06] So they get married. [12:07] They have three children. [12:08] They're moving on with their lives. [12:09] But then within seven years, I mean, [12:11] things don't last. [12:12] Things don't go well. [12:13] So now she's thinking divorce. [12:16] She's thinking that he's not quite who she thinks he is. [12:18] But she doesn't think anything sinister. [12:21] She doesn't think he's capable of anything horrible. [12:23] No. [12:24] At that point, no. [12:25] I mean, he didn't want to talk about anything. [12:29] And I think they got to the place in the marriage [12:31] where after seven years, there's things [12:33] that you have to talk about. [12:34] Yeah. [12:35] And he just didn't want to talk and wanted to hide. [12:39] And he was actually hiding a lot more than she thought. [12:41] Well, and she discovered what he was hiding [12:44] in the sock drawer of all things. [12:47] The sock drawer? [12:48] But she discovers, I mean, her life kind of explodes [12:51] in her face when she discovers what unpaid bills. [12:55] He hadn't paid their tax bill in so long [12:58] that they were at risk of eviction. [13:00] And so all of her spiny senses go up [13:03] because eviction. [13:04] We now know is what Heidi and Nick were facing [13:08] on the eve of, you know, when she when she passed. [13:11] So she thought, oh, my gosh, if if he's capable [13:14] of lying about this, he's capable of this. [13:16] He's capable of that. [13:16] And he he could be capable of killing his ex-wife [13:19] and he could be capable of killing me. [13:22] And she took her kids in the middle of the night and left. [13:26] Well, that was a key point of the story. [13:28] Let's talk about that, because Nick would tell police [13:32] that they were about to be evicted [13:34] from the first home, he and Heidi. [13:36] And that was very pivotal in that investigation [13:38] because their finances were a mess. [13:42] He says his wife knew about it, [13:43] but her family and friends said that she didn't know [13:46] anything about this. [13:47] And that was that was key to police. [13:48] Absolutely. [13:49] And that was, you know, later on in the investigation [13:52] when the FBI got involved, that's when they were really [13:54] able to take a deep dive into the the text messages [13:57] and the phone calls between Nick and Heidi. [13:59] And it was like she had no idea. [14:01] Yeah, she had no idea. [14:02] No idea. [14:03] So this case. [14:04] This case has gone on for a while in terms [14:07] of the unsolved murder. [14:08] Yes. [14:09] Nothing has happened. [14:10] But now Rachel is kind of ready to move on. [14:13] She wants to leave him. [14:14] And it's not an easy thing for her to do. [14:16] I remember she told us about that. [14:17] And we'll talk more about her interview. [14:19] But then a new detective hits the scene [14:23] and it would be a woman detective, which I always love. [14:25] Nicole Sipes. [14:26] Yes, she is fabulous as a detective and a person. [14:31] She's amazing. [14:32] And it is because of her that that justice [14:34] was brought to Heidi, truly. [14:36] Well, this happens in our stories [14:37] a lot, where somebody new hits the scene [14:40] and they look at the evidence again, they look at the story. [14:43] So Sergeant Sipes starts looking at this case [14:46] and she thinks something is odd. [14:48] Oftentimes, these female detectives [14:49] bring something that is a little bit different [14:52] to these unsolved murders. [14:54] And she started looking at it from a female perspective [14:57] of the women who did not know. [14:59] And in this case, Rachel, who suddenly now sees something. [15:02] So talk about how she. [15:04] She brought a new breath of air to this case. [15:07] Yeah, Nikki Sipes is amazing. [15:09] And she remembers the crime because she [15:12] was a beat cop at that time in that area. [15:14] So she remembered it. [15:15] Now she's in homicides. [15:17] And she was determined to pull in resources from the FBI. [15:21] Yes, she brought the FBI to the case, [15:23] which had not previously been involved. [15:25] And she was determined to look through everything. [15:31] She went back through their correspondence, [15:33] their text messages, their phone calls. [15:34] And something that struck her is even [15:38] in their casual conversations, their quiet texts [15:41] between each other, like a husband and wife, [15:43] there is not a single mention of, [15:46] we have to move out of our home. [15:48] Not, hey, babe, did you get the boxes? [15:50] Hey, I'm looking at the. [15:51] They had nowhere to live. [15:52] There's no evidence that they were being evicted [15:54] or that she knew about it. [15:55] No, absolutely nowhere did they talk [15:58] about where they were moving. [16:01] And so that really was when she was able to look at it. [16:02] And so that really was when she was able to look [16:04] at everything and see it. [16:06] And that stuck out. [16:07] That stuck out to her. [16:08] And then she took a deep dive on their finances [16:11] and realized there was a lot of money that was missing. [16:14] There was a lot of things that just didn't add up. [16:16] And the other thing is, Nick wasn't really [16:18] pressing police to try to solve this murder over the years. [16:21] He did not call to check what's the status of my late wife. [16:25] What happened to my late wife? [16:27] And if we believe his theory on what happened, [16:30] there is a person on the loose that killed somebody. [16:34] Yeah. [16:34] And shot him. [16:36] Yeah. [16:37] Yeah. [16:37] And so that was also very troubling to her. [16:39] So she starts thinking about him in a very different way. [16:43] Everybody had clammed up around him. [16:45] Nobody was actually giving anything, but she's looking. [16:48] So then the biggest bombshell in this case [16:51] and what we revealed in our story [16:53] were these secret recordings. [16:55] So Rachel, and with Sergeant Sipes' suggestion, [16:59] begins recording her conversations with Nick. [17:02] And she's feeling a little uncomfortable about it, [17:04] but she's now kind of upset and wants to know, is he lying? [17:08] So brave of her to do this. [17:11] And it was helpful because it shows a pattern, right? [17:13] He was doing the same thing that he had done with Heidi [17:17] now to Rachel, which is he was hiding financial information. [17:21] They were at risk of foreclosure. [17:23] And she had no idea. [17:26] We revealed some of these recordings. [17:29] They were never heard in court, by the way, [17:31] but we revealed some of these in our 2020 episode you might have heard. [17:34] But then there are also little clips that you have not heard, [17:38] including this one. [17:39] Take a listen. [17:41] There was a period in my life when I lied and I was a liar. [17:44] And God transformed me. [17:48] And that's what I said to my parents last night. [17:52] And that's what I believe today. [17:55] This is pretty incredible stuff, Brooke, when you think about it. [17:58] Because here's a guy who's a very religious guy, very much of faith. [18:02] And he's talking about how he's not honest, which [18:05] was quite an admission. [18:07] So you're dishonest. [18:08] You're dishonest about this, but you're honest about this or you're dishonest. [18:11] He is admitting that he's capable of being and that he was deeply dishonest. [18:18] Rachel is kind of, I mean, I don't know, kind of states evidence at this point. [18:23] I don't know when people go undercover with wires and all this stuff. [18:26] I mean, this was pretty brave stuff that she's actually recording him. [18:29] Anything could have happened. [18:30] Exactly. [18:31] And she's doing this. [18:32] And she had not spoken out before. [18:34] So when we began digging into this story and you were able to convince her [18:38] to sit down and speak with us, this was a pretty big deal. [18:41] This was a woman who was not only just scared and worried that her marriage had blown up [18:46] and all of that, but how were you able to convince her to sit down with us? [18:50] Because I was so impressed when she did. [18:52] Yeah. [18:53] Well, I first went to Minnesota and met her. [18:56] She's a teacher. [18:57] And I met her at her school. [18:58] And I wanted to know what was important for her to share, [19:03] because she had been silenced for so long. [19:06] And she is a person. [19:08] She has a lot of feelings. [19:09] She has a lot of things to say. [19:11] She's very insightful. [19:13] And you could tell she wanted to share. [19:16] She was very scared. [19:18] And she didn't want to jeopardize her kids as a mother. [19:21] So I think once she realized that our intentions were really [19:24] to give her a safe place to share, we had no hidden agenda, [19:29] I think she realized that it was something [19:31] that would be really helpful for her soul and her journey. [19:34] And it was. [19:34] And she was so grateful. [19:36] Her psyche had been injured prior to this. [19:38] And she wanted to do this in another relationship. [19:40] And just how she wanted to do the right thing. [19:43] It was actually very powerful for all of us, I think, in the room. [19:46] So she tells us her story. [19:48] She talks about how she did these recordings. [19:50] She talks about her feelings about her husband [19:52] and how everything changed in 2021. [19:57] After 10 years and no answers about what [20:01] happened to Heidi Fergus, her husband, 38-year-old Nick, [20:05] is arrested in connection with his wife's murder. [20:08] And she says that, in a way, he had sort of used his faith [20:11] over all those years to kind of shield him, which [20:14] was so interesting. [20:15] We do stories all the time on people who almost got away [20:18] with something. [20:19] Typically, they're not people who [20:21] are deeply involved in the church. [20:22] And in this case, he was. [20:23] Yeah, yeah. [20:24] And I think that's why it became easy for people [20:28] to believe his version of events. [20:30] Because how could someone like him do the alternative? [20:35] So yeah, it shook the community, for sure. [20:38] Yeah. [20:38] It shook the community. [20:39] So he's arrested. [20:40] Of course, he's professing his innocence, [20:43] that he's not guilty. [20:44] But ultimately, this case goes to trial. [20:47] And boy, was that something. [20:48] You were in that courtroom. [20:49] So we're going to talk about that. [20:51] Don't go anywhere. [20:52] Don't go anywhere. [20:52] And don't you go anywhere. [20:53] Because when we come back, Nick goes on trial. [20:55] We're going to take you inside what [20:57] was a very emotional courtroom. [20:58] Brooke will tell us all about that. [21:00] Plus, we're going to bring you up to date [21:02] on what has happened since then. [21:04] So stay put. [21:15] Hi, everybody. [21:16] Welcome back to 2020 The After Show. [21:17] I am sitting here. [21:19] And I'm riveted. [21:20] And I would hope you are, too, because 2020 producer Brooke [21:23] Stanglin is helping us unravel the case of Heidi [21:27] Furcus, a case that she and I worked on together, [21:29] took us to St. Paul, Minnesota, and just other places, [21:33] even right outside the city, to tell this story. [21:35] And Nick Furcus, his wife was shot and killed. [21:39] He claimed there was an intruder who had come into the house. [21:43] He goes to court. [21:44] And you were there. [21:45] And you talked about how the court [21:47] room is packed with people who are supporting him. [21:50] People are on Heidi's side. [21:52] There was a lot of emotion just in that court room. [21:55] You know, sometimes in these high profile cases, [21:59] the courtroom will be packed, but it'll just be media. [22:02] And people have decided that they're not [22:06] supporting the defendant anymore. [22:09] But this case was interesting because the courtroom [22:12] was packed. [22:14] There was only one or two rows that media could sit in. [22:17] Yeah. [22:17] Yeah. [22:18] And it was equally packed on both sides. [22:20] So Nick had a whole slew of family and supporters [22:23] from the church. [22:24] And then it was like a church divided. [22:27] Yeah. [22:27] Because the other half was sitting with Heidi's family. [22:30] And Rachel sat behind Heidi's family. [22:34] And yeah, there was a lot of tears. [22:37] There was a lot of emotions. [22:38] A lot of nerves. [22:39] Yeah. [22:39] What were your thoughts as this was playing out? [22:42] I mean, it was pretty obvious that this case was a little [22:45] shaky, but it was circumstantial. [22:46] Yeah. [22:46] And so what were you thinking? [22:48] As you're watching it, were you thinking [22:50] that he was going to be convicted? [22:51] Well, so Nick hired one of the most well-known and respected [22:56] criminal defense attorneys in the Twin Cities. [22:58] He was very good at what he does. [23:01] And there was a chance that if they could convince the jury [23:06] that there was some doubt, because like you said, [23:09] it's largely circumstantial. [23:11] There is no person that saw what happened. [23:14] There is no his, you know, he admits [23:15] he had his hand on the trigger. [23:17] Yeah. [23:18] Yeah. [23:18] It's irrelevant. [23:20] So you know, there was definitely concern. [23:24] And it wasn't a slam dunk case. [23:25] Yeah. [23:26] This father of three, young man, religious man, [23:29] there with all the church folks there, he is convicted. [23:33] Do you remember, like, was there an exhale? [23:36] Was there a gasp? [23:37] What do you remember? [23:38] He sobbed. [23:40] Yeah. [23:40] He sobbed. [23:42] And he put his head down and sobbed. [23:45] And Heidi's family, obviously, were crying tears of a very [23:49] different origin. [23:50] They were relieved that after a decade, [23:54] justice was finally coming for their daughter. [23:57] But yeah, he was, I think he thought [24:00] he was going to get away with it. [24:01] Yeah. [24:02] Did he look at anybody at that moment or what was the? [24:04] Just down. [24:05] Yeah. [24:06] Head down. [24:07] Head down. [24:07] He couldn't believe it was happening. [24:09] He ultimately was sentenced to life in prison without parole. [24:13] You stay in touch with Rachel. [24:15] You said, you know, you've also, Sergeant Sipes too. [24:18] You've gotten to know a lot of the folks there. [24:19] That had to be, she had to have mixed feelings about this. [24:23] I mean, on the one hand, she had to do the right thing. [24:26] In her mind, she was convinced that he had killed his wife. [24:29] But on the other hand, it's the father of her children. [24:31] Yeah. [24:32] There are so many victims in this case. [24:33] And the kids are victims here too, [24:35] because they have to live with the understanding of who [24:39] their father is and what he's convicted of. [24:42] And then, you know, the family wants a relationship [24:46] with the children. [24:47] And Rachel is hesitant. [24:49] Understandably, as a mother. [24:51] And she's really torn. [24:52] And I think it's a heartbreaking place for her to be. [24:58] Yeah. [24:58] Understandably. [24:59] But an update. [25:01] Things have sort of shifted in this case too, [25:03] because Nick was trying very hard for an appeal. [25:06] He was arguing that he was convicted [25:08] on circumstantial evidence. [25:09] And just recently, some news. [25:12] What happened? [25:12] Weeks ago. [25:13] Yeah. [25:13] So the conviction was upheld. [25:17] You know, I spoke to Nikki. [25:18] And. [25:18] And the prosecutors, they were at their computers, [25:22] refreshing, refreshing, refreshing. [25:24] Because if it were to be overturned, [25:27] he would have walked out of prison that day. [25:29] Wow. [25:30] And he could have never been tried again. [25:31] Wow. [25:32] They had a lot on the line. [25:34] They had a lot on the line. [25:35] And it was a circumstantial case. [25:37] And there actually was a holdout. [25:38] The chief judge voted that it possibly [25:43] could have been an intruder. [25:45] The others did not. [25:46] And it was a majority. [25:47] And so the conviction was upheld. [25:48] Mm-hmm. [25:49] Mm-hmm. [25:49] Mm-hmm. [25:49] It was upheld. [25:49] So at this point, his only real option [25:51] is clemency, which I imagine he'll try for. [25:55] The governor would have to issue that. [25:57] Yep. [25:58] Brooke, it was quite a story. [26:00] And I know you'll keep us updated if anything changes. [26:02] But wow. [26:03] Wow, wow, wow to be able to sit down and chat with you. [26:05] Thank you for doing this. [26:06] I mean, I think you're going to be coming back. [26:08] Oh, I hope so. [26:09] First of all, we got a lot to talk about, you and I, [26:11] on a regular basis when it comes to any stories that we're doing. [26:14] But it's always great to work with you. [26:16] And thanks again. [26:17] Thank you. [26:17] That's so kind. [26:18] Thank you. [26:19] Thank you for being with us, as always. [26:22] We appreciate your popping in to hear about our 2020 stories. [26:24] And thank you, of course, for listening. [26:26] And you can catch the latest 2020 episodes [26:28] on Friday nights on ABC. [26:30] You can stream on Disney Plus and Hulu. [26:34] We'll see you next time.