Self-Proclaimed Prophet's Testimony Falls Apart in Child Abuse Trial

[00:00:00] Mr. Armstrong: Thank you, Your Honor. Question number one. [00:00:03] Speaker ?: Are you a religious person? [00:00:06] Mr. Armstrong: Objection and relevance. Sustained. Question number two. Do you feel that you were targeted in this case? [00:00:14] Speaker 2: The fact that objection and relevance was made about that. [00:00:17] Speaker 3: Sustained. And the jury is directed to disregard the last answer and the question. [00:00:26] Mr. Armstrong: Question number four. Do you, or excuse me, why is it that the FLDS, or members of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-day Saints, seem so secretive? Objection. Character, religion, and relevance. Pre-trial motions and orders. Sustained. Has there been any change to the witnesses that were in the trailer, in-vehicle in this incident? Objection for the question and relevance. Could you re-read the question, Mr. Armstrong? Yes. Has there been any change to the witnesses that were in the trailer and vehicle in this case? Sustained and relevance. Do you meditate before traveling? Objection and relevance. Sustained. When you were stopped, did the Flagstaff Police Department tell you or your passengers anything about the nature of the stop? Objection calls for hearsay. Could you re-read the question? When you were stopped by the Flagstaff Police Department, did they tell you or your passengers anything about the nature of the stop? [00:01:46] Speaker 3: The court will allow the question as it pertains only to Mr. Bateman. [00:01:51] Speaker 2: Okay, yes. So, they mentioned that they were just going to let us go with a misdemeanor and that it was, we shouldn't do it anymore. They were just going to let us go until Officer Reid showed up and then see if everything seems to change after he got there. [00:02:12] Mr. Armstrong: Question eight, do you believe that a person's motive, that their mens rea, has anything to do with how a person is judged? Objection. I think this is argument. Better say for closing argument. Sustained. Question number nine, do you consider yourself an experienced driver? Or a careful person at the moment? [00:02:34] Speaker 2: Yes, I do. Actually, very careful. I try to calculate everything that I do and make sure that there's not an extreme nature. I actually have a lot of experience in driving, driving trucks and trainers for, I would say, several hundred thousand miles. [00:02:58] Mr. Armstrong: Question ten, do you consider yourself a prophet? Objection, relevance, pretrial emotions, sustained. Question eleven, how do you feel about people describing your character? Objection and relevance, sustained. Question twelve, under what form of belief were you raised under? Objection and relevance, pretrial emotions. Question thirteen, would you consider yourself to be kind and patient? Objection, character, pretrial emotions. [00:03:36] Speaker 3: I'll allow it. I'm sorry. I'll allow it. [00:03:41] Speaker 2: Yes, I do. I'm an extremely caring person. And I'm very patient and kind. And I don't force people to do anything. [00:03:53] Mr. Armstrong: Question fourteen, why are there very few of your friends at your hearings? Objection and relevance, sustained. Question fifteen, under what mindset do you raise your children? Objection and relevance, sustained. Question sixteen, do you care about your friends and family and about the people who are with you on this trip? Question seventeen, prior to being charged in this case, had you heard of a child abuse case before and what were your beliefs on child abuse? Objection, relevance, sustained. Question eighteen, are you sympathetic towards children or the underprivileged? Objection and relevance, character, sustained. Question nineteen, while incarcerated, have you been in a fight or an argument? Objection and relevance, sustained. Question twenty, would you describe yourself as a strong-willed person or are you gullible? Objection and relevance, sustained. [00:05:21] Speaker 2: - Question 21. Do you believe in letting others make their own choices? - Rejection, your own. - All the loud. - Yes, that's the basis of all that I believe. It's free agency that everyone choose. I teach them the correct principle that they'll govern themselves. [00:05:42] Mr. Armstrong: Would you consider yourself a charismatic or persuasive person? - Rejection, relevance. - Sustained. - Question 23. Are you a deceitful person? - Rejection, relevance, and the court's rules. - Sustained. - Question 24. When you left the last gas station that you stopped at, did you know that the girls were in the trailer? - I did not. [00:06:11] Speaker 2: - What do you have? - Sure, I apologize. - Okay. - Let me do a little further explanation on that. I knew they were in there the whole time, but my plan was, is when they got on the freeways, is to put them in the, is to have them hop in the vehicles where they can be seated down, 'cause I don't, I was concerned about the 75 mile an hour speed limits, and I saw Ruth get out of the trailer and head over to a different vehicle, and so I honestly thought I thought there was nobody in there. There was nobody in there. Why on earth, but I laughed with the doors open. [00:06:45] Mr. Armstrong: - Would it ever be your intent to do harm to people? - Objection, relevance, character. - Sustained. - Could you please explain in detail the ten minutes before the stop eventually occurred in Flagstaff on August 28th of 2000, or, you know, on August 28th, the day of the incident? [00:07:08] Speaker 2: - Yes, I can. So we came from 389 heading south, 'cause we were going to Tucson for this Grand Cardinal Conference end. - Could you just look up? - Yes, well, and we stopped with a silver saddle, and a gentleman approached us and seemed to be kind of a little bit angry, and so I was already a little bit on the edge, just like, my goodness, when I heard that guy question this very firmly, and so I was already thinking, 'cause I wanted to get into vehicles before we hit the freeway, and so I was already planning on that. - And then, I left, thinking that all those girls had got out of the trailer, and I was just assuming they closed it. I had no idea they were still back there. Anyway, I headed south on, I think it's 389, until you hit that first, the first road, crossroad, I'm not sure the name is there, I think. And there's also a freeway entrance right there, and I turned right and pulled off onto the freeway, and about, I think it was actually on the off-ramp, when I got the call from Donnie. I'm saying, "Hey, this door's open." And I was like, "What's my business?" And I didn't know if I should go over it, and I didn't know how far it was open or anything. And arriving at that time was when I saw Crosby, they were right up behind me on the corner of the trailer, and so I was already just kind of living on the edge. And I also had, I know people may not believe in telepathia, or whatever you want to call it, but I've already had some telepathic experiences when Mr. Horsley pulled me over. But it showed me that this was actually coming. Anyway, they may not believe it, but it's very scientific principles. So I was just really on the edge. And he pulled over, pulled right behind me, and so I pulled off onto the side of the road. And he pulled in around just like he described it, and I pulled off on the first road, first exit off the freeway again. I think it's like one mile, something in between there. And I pulled off on there, not because he was falling on me, particularly, because I needed to get those girls, the door closed on that trailer. And so jittery, I turned left, and just like he said, I turned left and pulled her over to their eye, so it looked like it was pretty suspicious. There was no place about it. Anyway, I just pulled around the corner, and it seemed like there was a dandy, dandy's or something. I'm not sure right there. I was just like, you haul. You haul, yeah, and I pulled into the parking lot. And then just sat there for four or five minutes. And Crosby, I think his name is. I pulled in there and just sat there. And then the lights on or anything. And then all, you know, a whole bunch of people shut up, and the rest you see. [00:10:11] Mr. Armstrong: Okay. Question 28. Did the girls have phones in the trailer? And if so, how many? [00:10:20] Speaker 2: Yes, they did. They had three. I think one of those actually a, um, my iPod. But they have their phones on the whole time. Because I, I don't know how it traveled anyway. But I also was concerned to make sure they're safe. - Oh. [00:10:39] Mr. Armstrong: - During the course of this trick, did you feel that you were under increased mental pressure? - Objection notes. Sustained. - What was your mental status at the time that you were pulled over? [00:11:02] Speaker 2: - Can I remember the last time, when I was asked a question. I was just, yeah, kind of anxious. And some of the witnesses have said that I was always anxious around cops. Well, we've kind of been through a lot of experiences in our town, and we've had to several raids and stuff. So pretty much every one of that town is really reluctant when it comes to police officers. And by the way, I do appreciate that. My own genius, I don't want to just, it's one of those weaknesses. [00:11:33] Mr. Armstrong: - On your way to Flagstaff, did your group stop for the restroom at all? [00:11:41] Speaker 2: - One of the witnesses described that I'd use the restroom, but that is not even my nature. And I asked some of my family members last night, if they remembered that nobody moved or anything. - Yeah, I just wanted to make a note. - Objection, you're saying that to strike the last couple of statements. [00:11:57] Speaker 3: - Sustained the horrible order. The last answer regarding hearsay statements by a family member is stricken. However, the answer in terms of Mr. David's personal experience [00:12:13] Mr. Armstrong: can be considered by the jury. Question 35, has there been anything in the testimony that you heard during this trial that has surprised you? - Detection and relevance. - Sustained. Question 36, what are your feelings about the laws of Arizona? - Detection and relevance. - Sustained. - Do you think that is possible, that an individual or organization may have some prejudice against you or the fundamentalist church of Latter-day Saints? - Objection, speculation. - Sustained. - Have you become aware at any point of a so-called vendetta against you from any law enforcement agency or other organization? - Objection and relevance. - Sustained. - Question 39, what are a few of the core teachings of the fundamentalist church of Latter-day Saints? - Objection and relevance. - Sustained. Question 40, did any of the officers who were seen during the August 28th stop at issue come across as indicative to you? - Objection and relevance. - Will you reread the question, Mr. Harvestron? - Yes, Your Honor. - Did any of the officers who were seen during the August 28th stop seemed indicative towards you? - And the objection and the objection as well? - Yes. [00:14:01] Speaker 3: - Or will it all allow you to answer? [00:14:04] Speaker 2: - Yes, there seem to be a really decent name of a problem. And like I say, I have nothing against physical security. I really appreciate what they do. Our country was in the second plan. But I don't really want to mention his name, but I asked him several questions and he yelled at me right in the car. I almost like he had a pretty kind of preconceived decision on what he was going to do. [00:14:37] Mr. Armstrong: And I have a question for you, too. How was it that the fingers of the alleged victims were sticking out of the door, yet the body cam footage viewed at trial shows officers unlatching the door from the outside? [00:14:51] Speaker 2: - I, I, this is my belief is that you can't, that the vertical pipe going up the trailer door, I don't know if you have experience with trailers, but you can latch the bottom door, excuse me, the bottom latch, and you have to be pretty tough to get that to stretch that one-inch line to bend and get it to close on the top. I'm sure many of you have that experience. Um, so I, I just, there's just a discrepancy between the testimony and the radio cam, the body cam stuff. I just, it's just not matching. I mean, I, I, I'm sure that their fingers were sticking out. We already know that. I was almost one of them. I haven't knowledge of that. But, so I'm just a little bit reluctant to believe all the video cam stuff. And, uh, yeah, I'll just agree with that. [00:15:46] Mr. Armstrong: During the August 14th stop that occurred in Mojave County involving, um, the alleged victims riding as passengers in a UTV. Why did you appear to be confused when you were contacted by law enforcement? [00:16:07] Speaker 2: Because I was confused. Because I was confused. I had no idea those girls were back there. They said that. They asked me and they might have. Um, I just forgot. Um, and I was so busy, um, organizing everything. Because I'm, you know, the driver. Um, and when he said, can you fit the, can you fit them in the front? I was just like, I was completely and totally shocked. Like, because I thought he was talking about the, to the two of those motorbikes on the back. They were strapped down the back. And so I was just like, why on earth would you stick some motorbikes in the, in the front? Anyway, so I turned into a gnomes. And she says, those girls are in the back. Your gnomes are in the back. And somebody has big girls. I forget them. She says, those, those girls are in the back. And I was like, oh my, this is a mess. So, anyway. [00:17:00] Mr. Armstrong: Do you have any additional thoughts or feelings about that stop? [00:17:06] Speaker ?: Um. [00:17:09] Speaker 2: Yes, I did. I, I decided, never mind. I decided not to answer that question. [00:17:23] Mr. Armstrong: Question 47. Why would you knowingly drive off when the door to the trailer was open? [00:17:30] Speaker 2: Because I didn't know it was open. And I didn't know they were there back there. Because I thought I saw them get in the other vehicle just like I wanted when we got on the highway or got near the highway or the freeway. [00:17:42] Mr. Armstrong: Okay. Question 48. What was the, what, or what were the items in the trailer for? [00:17:50] Speaker 2: Like, you was actually going around on camping trips and picnics. And we usually went on a picnic every day. And I made sure that we did lots of hikes and picnics because this is what we'd like to do. So, that's what the whole thing was about, what was picnics and camping. [00:18:12] Mr. Armstrong: Did the girls that were in the caravan on the day of August 28th ever confide in you over things? [00:18:20] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:18:21] Mr. Armstrong: Objection and relevance. Sustained. Question 51. Did you make the girls that were in the caravan aware that they had a choice regarding where they would be riding during the trip? [00:18:37] Speaker 2: I didn't actually persuade them but I just thought they knew my nature that they can reject anything that I suggest. Um, they might not believe they didn't have a choice but they absolutely did. Just because they, they look at me like I'm, they did, look at me like a special or whatever you want to call them. [00:19:01] Mr. Armstrong: Question 52. Did the mothers of the three girls that were in the trailer live with you? Yes, they did. [00:19:10] Speaker 2: Well, no one of them, well, I used to live in the same house as the third one. That I used to live in the house. And yes, the two mothers of the two girls did live in the house, the same house with you. [00:19:24] Speaker ?: Question 53. [00:19:25] Mr. Armstrong: Have you ever had a psycho evaluation? Objection and relevance. Sustained. Question 54. Do you share your teachings with any outside of your family and friends? Yes, I do. [00:19:39] Speaker ?: Anybody? [00:19:40] Speaker 2: I'm a, I'm a, uh, strong believer in the law of attraction and science and mixing the two. So, I'd like to share it with everyone. [00:19:55] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:19:56] Mr. Armstrong: Before the two stops that occurred in the month of August in 2022, did you have any criminal history? Objection and relevance. Sustained. Sustained and stricken. Question 56. Is it common to have people on side-by-sides or UTVs in Colorado city or zone? [00:20:19] Speaker 2: It is probably the most common thing, common place in the world to have stuff like that happen. It's just, it's just how we grew up. We don't, yeah, there's literally dozens and dozens of side-by-sides that drive around every day. Um, and motorbikes with, you know, helmets. And, um, I don't know, there's just probably 'cause there's a lot of children out in town. And so, we do a lot of that stuff just by default. So, it's kind of, kind of our history a little bit. [00:20:54] Mr. Armstrong: Um, mainly just so we could talk. [00:21:22] Speaker 2: Like I say, I'm a mentor. I spent thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars on being mentored by other people. Um, concerning businesses and mindset. And so, all that's what I do is I mentor people and encourage them and teach them. And so, that's what I do most of the time. And, by the way, if somebody wanted to reject what I teach, they, they, no, very well like it. And I, I won't get angry at them at all. Um, so, that's what it was for. It was just, and also in this case, it was for safety. Because, when I do those girls were back there. [00:21:57] Mr. Armstrong: Question 63, or, excuse me, 62. Generally, did you give your family the right to reject your instructions? Absolutely. [00:22:08] Speaker 2: And, yeah, many of them can say that I, I often voice, if you don't want to be here, if you don't want to go with me, if you don't want to do anything, you're welcome to labor right now. They, they, they all know that very well. [00:22:24] Speaker ?: Question 63. [00:22:25] Mr. Armstrong: Previous witnesses have mentioned that you may have seen paranoid or on edge about potential law enforcement contact. Why is that? [00:22:36] Speaker 2: Yes, like a privacy state in our town has had very, a whole lot of raids, literally. In 2008, they had a big raid in Texas, so they brought their tanks up to our temple door and smashed the door down. [00:22:50] Speaker 3: Direction of relevance with the strike against it? Sustained, the court will strike the previous answers to our event. So, continue. And, yeah, I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. [00:23:03] Speaker ?: I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. [00:23:09] Mr. Armstrong: I think that's a good question. [00:23:10] Speaker ?: I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. [00:23:12] Mr. Armstrong: I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. [00:23:21] Speaker 2: I think that's a good question. Well, as I mentioned earlier, Officer Orfley stopped. I hadn't had telepathic experience. And it was my subconscious mind, I guess, contacted his. I'm not sure how it all works. But, and I know it's, I know many of you have the same experience. But they showed me that they were trying to stack my charges so they could get me in prison. Anyway, then when we stopped at Silver Saddle, that informant was kind of angry and he walks up and he starts kind of yelling at us, like, "Where are you from?" And so I was like, "Oh my goodness. They're going to call somebody." So I was already on edge. So that's, that's the two areas in the way. [00:24:05] Mr. Armstrong: Question 64. Was there extra space in any of the other vehicles in the caravan? Yes, absolutely. They could have all fit in a different vehicle. [00:24:15] Speaker 2: They just, yeah. They tilt right back there and I had a word to get my consent. [00:24:25] Mr. Armstrong: Question 65. Is it generally the rule that what you say goes for those who are riding along in your caravan? [00:24:34] Speaker 2: Yes, it is, but not by my choice. They respect me and love me. But it's definitely not because I tell them, they're going to be damned and go to hell and all that other stuff. [00:24:49] Mr. Armstrong: Question 66. For how long were you on the highway on the stop that occurred on August 14th involving the side-by-side? And what were the speed limits on those roads? [00:25:04] Speaker 2: Okay, maybe a question? [00:25:06] Speaker ?: Yeah, so I'll break this into two questions. [00:25:08] Mr. Armstrong: So how far were you going on the highway on August 14th of 2022 when you stopped pulling the side-by-side trailer? [00:25:17] Speaker 2: Okay, it was approximately one mile before the road turned off onto a really, quite a small county road. [00:25:23] Mr. Armstrong: And then the second part of that question, what were the speed limits on those roads? [00:25:28] Speaker 2: Um, 55. And when you turn off on the county road, I think it was 35 or 45 to kind of switch back in corporate. Sometimes 25 round corners. [00:25:42] Mr. Armstrong: Question 67. How much experience do you have as a driver? [00:25:46] Speaker 2: Um, I guess I mentioned that earlier, but I have literally hundreds of thousands of miles of driving experience, driving big heavy traitors on stoves, like 40 stoves at a time, behind this large gooseneck, or on this gooseneck truck, or trailer, behind a big Dodge truck and many other port trucks. So I have much experience with bull traitors. [00:26:11] Mr. Armstrong: Question 68. Given that there were many other adults on this trip, are you aware why you were the only one arrested in this case? Objection. Relevance. Sustained. Question 69. Several of the witnesses saying that you didn't pull over immediately after you were told by occupants of the trailer that there were in fact people in the trailer and issues with the door. Why, why do you think they are serving that you didn't pull over right away? [00:26:45] Speaker 2: Um, I don't know, but I did pull over to that kid once I got that call. Um, I didn't feel like it was safe at the time, or act, and also because I was so paranoid about that truck behind me. I didn't just pull over to the shoulder immediately because I could see that freeway exit just ahead, not too far, so I was going to pull off on that exit. And so, yeah, like I've already stated, I pulled off and then, uh, Crosby pulled, pulled, pulled on beyond the, the exit. Um, and then I pulled back on, on the highway and then pulled off right on the exit. He backed, he backed up down the shoulder and followed me into the exit. I, I, I forget the name of the exit, whatever it was and what all the, the road names are. [00:27:40] Mr. Armstrong: Question 70. Was it your intention to continue down the freeway past Flagstaff pulling the trailer with the, um, alleged victims inside? No, I have. [00:27:52] Speaker 2: Question 71. Does your family ever suggest places to go where things to do? [00:27:54] Speaker ?: Yeah, absolutely. [00:27:55] Mr. Armstrong: Question 73. We observed some, um, length of black material hanging from the left trailer door in Exhibition 59 in the state. [00:28:03] Speaker 2: What was that material? [00:28:04] Speaker ?: Yeah, that was the seal, just like Anderson said. [00:28:05] Mr. Armstrong: Um, but I read back, I've wrapped it into that trailer before, just, I don't know, I don't even remember what it was for, but I wrote back there and I said, there's, there's, it's definitely not real good ventilation, but there is ventilation for sure. And there's enough, there's enough air flow, there is a little, you know, I don't even remember what it was for, but I wrote back there and there's, there's definitely not real good ventilation, but there is ventilation for sure. [00:28:23] Speaker 2: And there's enough, there's enough air flow, there is a little, you know, I don't even remember what it was for, but I wrote back there and there's definitely not real good ventilation, but there is ventilation for sure. And there's enough, there's enough air flow, there is a little bit of circulation to where it's not extremely, extremely hot where you can't stand it, but, yeah. But that's what the phone was for is, because I was just expecting them to tell me, you know, if they have an issue, I'd pull over and we can fix everything. That's what the phones are for, half of the reason. [00:29:00] Mr. Armstrong: Question 74. What is your driving experience? I guess that's a redone, redone question, so. Question 75. What has been your experience in occupation? Objection, relevance, character. Sustained. And no further questions. All right. [00:29:25] Speaker 3: Cross-examination. Thank you, Judge. [00:29:28] Speaker 2: Good afternoon. Can you hear me okay? I can. Okay. I want to talk to you about statements you've made about this case, and I want to start with talking about your opening statement. Do you stand by your opening statement? I'm probably worded it wrong. Okay. Do you stand by the claims that you've made in your opening statement? Hmm. I don't, I'm not sure what to say. All I know is I do not want to harm anyone on the face of the whole earth. I don't even like harm the animals or bugs. So I don't know why I would harm a person. [00:30:07] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:30:08] Speaker 2: Well, let me ask you about some of the statements that you made. And, uh, so you said no big statement. That I shouldn't have done it. Do you agree with that? Um, I, I'm not going to agree with it. You described the situation of the girls being in the trailer as dangerous. Do you agree with that? Did I say dangerous? I don't remember, but, uh, I just, I don't want to, I forget what the word is. I don't want to get myself in trouble to the law, so I'm not going to agree with it. You described as what you did was, you described what you did as being dumb. Do you agree with that? Um, yeah, I did. It was as smart as I could have been, for sure. You said that the girls begged to be back there? I did. And you let them go back there? Reluctantly, very reluctantly, yeah. But you gave permission? I did. You gave approval? [00:31:22] Speaker ?: Not approval. Absolutely not approval. [00:31:24] Speaker 2: Not one bit of approval by permission. But those girls were in your care? Um, I, you can argue that. They're in their mother's care. But at the time, you were the adult that was with them, correct? Correct. And so, their mother was right behind us in their vehicles. You were on the phones with the girls the entire time they were in the trailer? I don't think so, pretty much. Except for in splotchy places where the service wasn't good. And you said nobody that the girls were used to running in the trailer? A lot, yeah. And you just said that you rode the trailer? Yeah. On their roads, a home in the backwoods, in the boonies. Yeah. And you said nobody that the girls liked to do those things? Mm-hmm. Okay. And you, you would allow it? Just on the whole road roads. This was the first time we'd ever done it. Absolutely. On the freeway. On the highway. At least I can remember them and they're not going to have the time. But I sure don't remember them. In one of your questions to law enforcement, you characterized the situation as being extremely dangerous. I don't remember it. I don't know why I would have said that. It seems like I'm going down to the street. Would you agree that as the driver of the truck pulling the trailer, this situation and the trailer and the girls was your responsibility? Yeah. And you knew they were back there. And you continued on your way with them back there for hours? I did. And that included here in the Flagstaff area? Only because I didn't know they were back there. Once I could get Flagstaff, I wanted them to hop in the other vehicles and put their seat belts on. But they were back there when you were on Interstate 40 in Flagstaff, correct? Yeah, but I promise you, I didn't know they were there. But they were there, you were there when you were on Highway 89, correct? Yeah, I did. [00:33:39] Speaker ?: Yeah. I'm a little confused. [00:33:40] Speaker 2: So you learned that they were back, you knew they were back the entire time. And you also didn't intend to continue that way past Flagstaff. You just testified. Tell me. Tell me you understand. Okay. And I realized I probably didn't describe it real well. Yeah, so we'd come through 389, stopped with Sower Saddle, and I'm not sure why, but we pulled into the station right south of Wendy's. I forget what it is, the little sea store from there. And I think I went in, and they went in, and then I thought they'd come back out and close the door because I saw a roof go through the vehicle, and I thought all the other girls had gone through the vehicle because I thought that was, I'd already described it, that's the plan. And so then I headed out, and I didn't realize that there was girls still in there doing stuff in the trailer, and the trailer door was open because we forgot to close it. That's what they told me. And so I headed out, and then I got to the freeway entrance, and I was just like right on the freeway, on the entrance, on the freeway, when I got a phone call. So I'm just like, I'm just kind of peeing out, and all of a sudden this gentleman, Crosby, came up behind me, and just kind of freaked me out. I was like, I really wasn't even thinking straight, but I got off as far as fast as I could. And I'm, I accident the freeway, but Crosby falls and ran into where I went, the parking lot, to the, across the street from the U-Haul. So I think you're aware, you're aware that at that point, in that area, the girls did get out of the trailer. Um, do you mean after they stopped? After you stopped, yeah. Oh, I knew they were in there long before that, because they phone called me. Okay. There's just this kind of, mysterious time period, by I-40, where you don't know if they were in there or not. Um, yeah, there's, I know there's, well like I said, it's right when I was getting off of, or should, or have a leave site all day. Um, it's when I was entering the freeway, that's when I got the phone call, and so I didn't have time to really do anything. Cause I can't, I was like, I thought, you know, I'm gonna pull off right on the side, but there's, there's no work pull off until you get quite a ways down into the freeway. And that's just like, right at the time, he pulled right behind me, you know, a corn trailer. And I'd already had that, you know, kind of freaked out with that guy that came up to us and started asking questions about, you know, where you're from, what you're doing. And so, I just pulled off, as soon as I could, and I could see up ahead that there was an exit, and that was headed for that exit. And, like I said, I just freaked out, pulled off to the side. He pulled over beyond the exit, and stopped. And so I pulled onto the freeway a little bit, and then pulled off on the exit. And, yeah, so this time I didn't know they were back then, so I was trying to get off this clip of the head. It just seems, um, a bit retarded to me to continue on running off the door trouble. So, I, I just didn't want to do it. And on that note, I guess, from your opening statements, uh, you said, "It was dumb. I shouldn't have done it. I already know." Yeah, but I didn't say that on the freeway. It was going down these very, very slow roads, where I could pull off. I could slow down as slow as I wanted. It wasn't a lot of traffic. And I guess, I guess what I'm saying is, there's nothing in the whole world that's more important to me than my family and those that I care about. Nothing. And so you agree that it was your responsibility to keep those girls safe that day? Yeah, I do. [00:37:39] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:37:40] Speaker 2: And you describe yourself as an experienced driver. Uh, does that include trucks or trailers? I do. And would you agree that, as a driver of a truck with a trailer, it's, uh, your responsibility, uh, both the passengers and the cargo? Yes. Your responsibility to know who's in your truck cabs? Uh, yes, it is, although I didn't always do it because of my people, but, yeah. And your responsibility to know who's in the, uh, a trailer that you're going? Yes. [00:38:11] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:38:12] Speaker 2: Or what cargo's in there? Yes. Yes. And that was true on August 22nd. It was your responsibility. August 28th. Sorry, August, yes, August 28th of 2022, I apologize. And August 28th of 2023, that was your responsibility for that? Yes, of course. Okay. If you knew that it was unsafe, why did you let the girls be in the trailer? I just really didn't think it was really unsafe. Maybe just a little bit, because I knew that it was a little hot back there, and the ventilation wasn't very good. But I've had, I've driven, like I say, several hundred thousand miles. I've never had any accidents that were my fault. I've been in several accidents, but just, and so I just trusted myself as a driver. And also, whether people like it or not, I asked them to watch me every time we hopped in that vehicle. You justified that the items in the trailer were for camping and for picnic, correct? That's right. Were the reclining chairs, the couch, was after camping and picnic? You know what? I had no clue what those were doing in there. I really don't. I didn't even know they were there until actually the picture showed up. Because somebody put them in there when I wasn't watching. Someone put a big recliner, a reclining chair in there when you weren't watching? I didn't know. Yeah. But you have to realize that this trailer was parked at our home in Short Creek in Colorado City, Arizona. Parked there. And the thing you need to realize, please, is that this is a huge family. This is 40 people. And for one of them, the family would like me to try to keep track of everything. It's a big experience. So, yeah, I just can't keep track of everything. And I, yeah. Well, it sounds like you're aware of a lot of picnicking and camping things being back there, but just somehow the recliner and chairs escaped you? Yeah, I did. Well, when you would ride back there, where would you sit? I would have one in it once, and I wouldn't sit. I was standing. You were standing, sure? Yeah, I was just, I know it was probably empty. I mean, you can empty a trailer. You don't have to have all that stuff. And it only takes yourself in actually several minutes or seconds to remove all the stuff. And the one time I did do it, it was standing. As experienced driving, do you think that's a good idea? Yeah, I do, actually. I just wanted to see how it got back there. And you have to realize this isn't on the highway. This is on dirt roads. And which was about 99% of all the stuff we did was on dirt roads. We're side by sides. We have motorbikes, and so we drive on these dirt roads. We go out to Coral Peak Sandens and drive them around. Well, I mean, it's one thing for you as an adult to feel like it's okay for you as an adult to be standing back there. Don't you feel like it's a little different with young girls? We don't have the drive race. There's a little driver that I trust that they're nice. It's a little different. Well, if you care about them so much as you've been testifying, maybe why don't you put them in that dangerous situation? Because they asked. And you were in charge. And you made a decision. And you let them sit back there. I did. You must be mistaken when I say I care about them. I have a heartfelt care for them that's worth my life. And I don't know. Have you ever had a child to ask you for something that wasn't asking for them? They cried or whatever. Let me ask you about the phones real quick. And so you talked about you being in constant communication. Were there times when the calls would drop? Occasely. Yeah, there's quite a few places where they dropped. There are quite a few places where they did drop. But it's not for very long. It's only for a few minutes usually. When the calls would drop, would you immediately try to get back on the phone again? Absolutely. A hundred percent. And that happened on this trip? Absolutely. And every other trip. Did you instruct the girls not to get out of the trailer? Do you have a fly set? Do you have a fly set? Do you have a fly set? [00:42:47] Speaker ?: Do you have a fly set? [00:42:48] Speaker 2: Do you have a fly set? Do you have a fly set? Do you have a fly set? Do you have a fly set? Yeah, I probably did, yeah. Just because the cops were there. I didn't want to create a big scheme. [00:42:55] Speaker ?: No other questions. [00:43:00] Speaker 3: The first is, once you were notified by phone, the trailer door was not fully locked. Why did you not immediately pull over? [00:43:16] Speaker 2: Because I was smashed into the guardrail of the off ramp. [00:43:23] Speaker 3: Next. Did you take the trailer because there was no room for the girls in the cars? Absolutely not. There may have been plenty of room, but there was room for everyone. Why was the trailer taken on this trip since you weren't camping? [00:43:44] Speaker 2: Several reasons. Because it's just nice to have all that different stuff when you have such a large group of people. And also when you're traveling with children, I'm sure you have children and all that. When a child needs a potty break, you can't always find a convenience store. So we took that. That's what the water potty was for. [00:44:05] Speaker 3: Did the girls' parents know they were traveling in a trailer across state? I think all of them did, but many of them. When you got the call that the door was broke, were you surprised that girls were still in there? Or did you think they were calling from another car? I don't know. [00:44:33] Speaker 2: I was shocked as it could possibly be. I had no idea they were in there. I actually kind of panicked. [00:44:39] Speaker 3: When you got off the freeway, why didn't you stop right away at a gas station? [00:44:46] Speaker 2: There wasn't any gas station between that, where I exited off of, I forget the side street there as you come on 389. [00:44:57] Speaker 3: Why did you drive farther before stopping? [00:45:02] Speaker 2: Because it was literally only one mile that I was driving. And I turned off on, like I said, I don't know the exits, but I exited. And then I just made all right corners, and it was literally only, from the stoplight, it was literally only maybe several hundred feet, but I was taking right-hand turns so I didn't have to cross through the traffic. And then I just pulled into, made another right-hand turn to the parking lot where I parked. [00:45:38] Speaker 3: You said that you are very experienced when it comes to operating a vehicle with a trailer. Even before arriving at Silver Saddle, you operated a truck and trailer on highway speed roads for an extended period of time. Do you believe that if there were children in that trailer, those children would not be subjected to an unsafe situation? [00:46:10] Speaker 2: That is kind of an interesting question, but because I was the driver and I felt like I had so much experience, I didn't feel like they were in danger, but under normal circumstances, yeah, absolutely. Because I would slow down over any dangerous things, dangerous places or bumps or anything of that nature. [00:46:31] Speaker 3: If you didn't know that there was a couch in the trailer, where did you expect the girls to sit after you gave them permission to ride in the trailer? [00:46:44] Speaker 2: Like I said, I was just a busy, busy person, and I didn't really think about it. But we did have chairs back there all the time. So I just, like, probably just subconsciously thought I'd sit on the chairs. [00:46:58] Speaker ?: I should have thought about it, but I didn't. [00:47:00] Speaker 3: Did you look in the trailer or make any attempt to secure items or make it safe for them in any way? I don't think I did. Why did you need to take a trailer to an event of which you were going to? [00:47:25] Speaker 2: One, we're lucky to different things. The generator, because we like to stop at the movies and have lunch a lot of times. For the gasoline, for the porta-potties, just basically extra space to haul things in. [00:47:47] Speaker 3: Why didn't you pull over on the freeway? [00:47:51] Speaker 2: Probably a couple of reasons why. I don't know exactly what I was thinking. But one of them was, is, that's right when Crosby came up behind me. So I was kind of panicking, wondering why he was just stopping or following me right on the corner of the trailer. And at the same time I was on the phone, so I knew that it was open, because those girls' hands were out of the door. So I think it was kind of overwhelmed, probably why they just pull up on the... But I could look up and see an exit, so I pulled up on the exit, the first exit. [00:48:30] Speaker 3: Do you see yourself as the adult ultimately responsible for the minors under your care, or do you think someone else of legal age on this trip was responsible for the decision to allow kids in the trailer? Yeah, I do. I'm completely myself responsible. Does the state have any follow-up questions based upon the jurors' questions? [00:48:57] Speaker 2: Yes, Judge. So, the generator and gas tank, it sounds like there was gas in the gas tank? I have no idea. Well, in Crosby, you could use it for stops or camping and things, and so wouldn't it make sense there would be gas in the gas tank from the generator? If you want to know how it's true, I really didn't have a clue what was back there. I did check it. Doesn't it seem a little bit irresponsible to not know if there's gas in the gas tank when there's girls inside? It might be. I might have good, for sure. You had booked an Airbnb for this trip, correct? I had. Or, almost for this time. So, what's the point of a generator and gas tank? For when we stopped for lunch on the way, in the movies, in the trees and forests and stuff. That's what we did. You would need to use the generator and gas tank to prepare lunch? Often, yeah. We use it for, I don't remember what we used it for, we just carried it with us. What kind of stove or device were you powering with the generator? Uh, I don't know. I don't remember. I just know we always carried the generator with us because that's what we did have happened. You were asked about not stopping the center, and you agreed there are gas stations along Highway 89 on the route that you took in the Flagstaff area? Yes. Past the Silver Saddle Center? Yes. Gas stations and restaurants? Yes. The Flagstaff Mall? [00:50:27] Speaker ?: I don't know. [00:50:28] Speaker 2: Okay. And then when you turned on to Country Club, is it your position there were no gas stations to stop at on Country Club? I had no idea they were back there when I was on Country Club. You didn't see the gas stations ahead of you as you approached I-40 on Country Club? No, I had no idea they were back there. I thought they got out and got into different vehicles like we'd already talked about prior to this experience. When you got in 540, you didn't notice the signs along the road talking about upcoming gas stations or restaurants? There was only like, it's only like one mile from where I pulled off of Country Club, on the freeway to the exit I took, mile maybe two. When you got off 540 on the platform, you didn't notice any gas stations there? Yes, we were there across the street. I had to go closer to traffic and wait through traffic so I kept turning right, clear around, and then into the parking lot where I parked. I just kept a right-hand turn so I didn't have to go through traffic and leave because I was a little concerned that they were on that kind of one further. I mean, I was really concerned. You didn't notice the gas station on the right, right after the exit? I don't remember a gas station. I had a total of them. If there's one there, then I must have been so concerned about that gas home that I didn't even see it. What about restaurant parking lots? It must be way different than I remember because I don't remember anything. I just kept turning right until I pulled into the parking lot. I turned left because, well first, and then I turned right just like Charles Busey and I got quite across the traffic because that guy dropped behind me. And I knew those girls who went back down to the normal ones, so I was kind of scared. I just kept turning right and kept turning back into the parking lot of the park. So you drove past the subway restaurant as well? I don't remember anything. You missed the McDonald's? I don't remember anything other than I just parked as quick as I can, what I felt like as quick and safe as I could. Well, it seems like you went past an awful lot of businesses, gas stations and restaurants. Oh, it might have seemed that way to you, but it didn't to me. It seemed like I tried stopping the click of that kid. What I'm saying is I care about those people more than my life. I'm not trying to harm them. Were you just so paranoid about police that you didn't notice all of those businesses? I must have been in those. [00:53:04] Speaker 3: Why did you tie down the five gallon jugs of water? [00:53:10] Speaker 2: I didn't tie them down. I didn't know they were tied down. Someone else probably did. You have to realize that like I said, there's so many people in this group. And it's just, it's very difficult for me to keep track of whatever you think it goes on. And I may, yeah. [00:53:30] Speaker 3: Next. As an experienced driver, why did he not check the cargo trailer himself? I should have. Why did he not lock the cargo door himself? [00:53:54] Speaker ?: I should have. [00:53:57] Speaker 3: Is that part of an experienced driver's responsibility? [00:54:02] Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. [00:54:04] Speaker 3: I just, yeah. It's busy. Too busy. If nothing was wrong in your view of things, why were you so paranoid? [00:54:16] Speaker 2: I'm wrong is an interesting question. Part of the reason I was paranoid, because the first stop that I had when I had that telepathic experience, whatever you want to call it, and also the 911 caller, I think is who it was, came up and he was a little bit frustrated. I said, "Where did he get from? What are you doing?" And so that got me kind of paranoid. And I knew, I knew that some, some police officers would have a problem with being a traitor, even though I did look on the internet. and I typed, or maybe I asked, maybe I asked the nurse to do it, to see if it's illegal to, for people to write a joke. The objection would strike. The objection would strike. The objection would strike. [00:55:04] Speaker ?: Excuse me. Sustained is to the last portion of the answer and that portion is stricken from the record. I got it. I appreciate that. [00:55:14] Speaker 2: I see. In other words, we looked on Google to see if the objection sustained. [00:55:25] Speaker 3: Can you explain to me what I'm doing wrong? If nothing was wrong in your view of things, why were you so paranoid? Yeah. [00:55:34] Speaker 2: I was just paranoid because, like I said, the witness, the seller sat over, walked up and asked us these questions quite, you know, emphatically. Where are you guys from? What are you doing? So it kind of scared me a little bit. And also the fact that they had called me and were on the phone. And, um, I was concerned about the people between them were thinking. [00:56:06] Speaker 3: Alright, thank you. And does the state have any follow-up questions that they wish to ask in response to those last jury questions? Sure. [00:56:15] Speaker 2: This mysterious individual, what were they confronting you about? Mysterious individual? What were these? This person at the Silver Saddle Center, what were they confronting you about? Oh, I don't know. I just saw him in the rearview mirror and I could see his facial expressions and he was talking to one of the girls. So I really don't know what he was asking. But they just told the neighbor that, hey, he was asking, what are we doing? Where are we from? Um, you know, what are, something there's their dresses or some time. Do you think he's concerned about the girls staying in the trailer? Um, yes, but at that time, they weren't in the trailer. They were, well, excuse me, they weren't driving and parked. They were getting in and out, getting stuff out of the trailer. because that's where we stored all our stuff.