Ruth Odinga opens up on Raila’s death, her fallout with Mbadi & the future of ODM — Full Interview

[0:10] Mwishimewa, I'd like us to begin with the current political storm. [0:15] And what exactly is the fallout between you and Treasury Cabinet Secretary John Burdy? [0:24] I honestly do not have an answer to why I have a fallout with the Cabinet Secretary John Burdy, [0:32] our CS for finance, because as far as I'm concerned, we went for a meeting. [0:41] And after the meeting, he accused me of having been someone who is disrespectful to the party [0:52] and that especially having talked matters that I did in the funeral in Lariade. [0:59] And as far as I remember, my speech was very clear and my tone has always been very, very clear [1:06] since even during the funeral of my brother that with a strong ODM, [1:13] and a united ODM, we could be able to go either by having our own presidential candidate in the next election, [1:24] or even if we were to go to any negotiating table with any of our other partners, [1:33] we would go stronger if we go as a united one ODM. [1:41] So when this came, I wondered because I thought that each one of us, including our late party leader, [1:50] Arayla Molodinga, was always for the strongest party we could be together. [1:57] And I remember the last PG we had, he was very categorical that we must remain and we must come out strongly now [2:05] and really ensure that we have a very strong and united party so that whichever table we are going to go to. [2:14] And he even told us that nobody has even discussed in the party whether we are going to go it alone or whether we are going to partner with anybody. [2:22] Yeah, because whatever conditions we had was after 2027, but then as a party we had not discussed. [2:28] But what he was emphasizing and I think that what the party was all about was that we would go to the table as a strong united one ODM. [2:41] So it's like the Apostles, Apostle Paul, where when you come now to say that this is what we want and then the same, same people that you are with, [2:51] I feel like I'm crucified like the Apostle Paul, that I'm also preaching that we should be together. [2:58] And even right now they're still talking about the same unity. [3:01] So why my talking about this unity should be seen as a problem and as an issue of an Odinga coming out [3:13] is to try to bulldoze or to disrespect any member of the party. [3:21] In his words he said that, and he appeared to be referring to you, that just because someone is Raelah's sister, they cannot order them around. [3:30] And a few days later he went on to pick at Winnie Odinga, who is your niece. [3:36] And he said that she lacks the range and the capacity to question him. [3:43] What do you carry from this? [3:47] I would like to say that the attack that was on me to me was very unwarranted. [3:53] Because whatever I talked about was really something. [3:58] And that was meant to bring the unity by bringing all forces. [4:05] And I have a very strong reason which I'll come to why I believe that ODM has gotten to the stage we have [4:15] due to actually trying to always ensure that we have dialoguing, we actually have participation [4:23] of all members of ODM and everybody on board to ensure that the party continues. [4:30] Because ODM is a very diverse party and you must imagine that we have got a lot of different opinions [4:35] and a lot of different people. [4:37] So for me I thought that we have not exhausted. [4:40] Neither have we even started exhausting all the channels that we could do to ensure that we bring everybody [4:46] back on board and the case of Winnie was also very unfortunate because I believe that we are here [4:55] to also enhance and ensure that the young people also have a voice in this party of ours. [5:01] And for a person who has also been brought up and has said in his own words that Raila has mentored him, [5:11] I would have thought that he would have taken his time to also mentor the daughter of Raila [5:18] who he left as a young girl who was also politically inclined and not to castigate her opinion, [5:30] which could have been an opinion of very many young people who we also need in the party. [5:36] So for me I believe, like you say, that much as I would want to say that the attack on the Odingas, [5:42] and the attack on the Odingas is something I will talk about later on, [5:47] but I also believe that attacking a young lady or a young person who has got her opinion [5:56] on what she thinks or she knows is the right is the right thing or her opinion that this is the role [6:05] of a treasury CS should not mean that they are juvenile for telling them what she thinks a role [6:15] of a CS should be. [6:16] You've actually put it that you think that the issue he has with you is because you want a strong ODM. [6:26] And with Winnie, during the burial of the parent of Richard Onyonka, she said that the Treasury [6:34] Cabinet Secretary needs to focus on matters economy and matters how the country improves financially, [6:42] actually saying that he needs to talk less and work more. [6:48] What do you make of his performance as the Treasury CS since his appointment? [6:52] I would not be able to, I have the performance of the CS as we are speaking is an issue that I would say [7:03] I would want to talk on on a later issue on his. But his performance on coming into the involvement of the [7:10] party issues because where the attack has come from, for me, is more on the issues of the party. [7:18] And on the party issues, I remember that we clearly did say that they left and that is how the party [7:26] leader to go as experts to support the government as experts from the ODM party and they relinquish their [7:35] seats in the party. And that's how some of us, even myself, became a deputy organizing secretary when [7:43] they were now relieved of their roles. Now, when he comes back and now starts being part of the ODM party [7:51] to the extent of castigating us and ordering us in the party around, I find that a bit [7:59] difficult because I think now it becomes where the roles are now mixing up roles. When you're CS and [8:10] you're serving the government, should you also be so directly involved in the party issues that are [8:17] having? And we have party organs and party disciplinary organs that could even castigate and say, [8:24] Ruth, you're disrespectful. And therefore, for this, we feel this is what should be done to you. [8:28] So for me, I'm very key on that one. On the issue of whether, you know, you cannot also mix issues [8:36] about what Winnie directly asks him to do as his role and then bring it on to me because mine is very [8:45] categorical. Mine is on the issue of him castigating me, telling me I'm disrespectful because I asked for [8:53] this party to have unity. And I would like to also ask him where in particular I have been disrespectful [9:00] with the party. [9:00] But have there been any disagreements between you two, including during the time when [9:07] Baba Raila Molodinga was not just the ODM leader, but also the at the center of Kenyan opposition [9:14] politics and over the actually Kenyan politics? I must say that and that's why I find it a bit [9:23] difficult to talk because there was a time that honorable body and I have a lot of respect for him [9:30] having been our chair in the party. And this is something I would like to talk about. There is a time [9:37] that when he became nominated, I think he stepped down from his position and I think it's all over [9:47] in the news he talks about it. Yes. [9:50] And I must say that when he became nominated and he became in whatever, he wanted to become the [9:57] minority leader of the party. And I stood with Wandae to become the party leader. I don't know [10:05] whether that would have worked as well between me and him, but I think that could be something that [10:13] might be one of the no love loss between me and him. But I didn't think that should be because it seems [10:19] funny that men do disagree to agree, but when it comes to a woman, maybe he feels I should not have [10:26] gotten into that whatever, but I think he was still made the minister, the CS. No, no, still made the [10:38] chair of the PAC and nominated in the cabinet. And I would want to really not talk about the [10:51] CS in the matters as this as it is right now, because I believe that there's pertinent issues [11:00] that the CS has talked about. And one of them is what I wanted to talk about. And that is something [11:08] that being a sister should not make me feel privileged. Yeah, I promise we'll get to that. [11:17] But just one more question on this. Do you believe there are larger political interests behind the [11:23] attacks and criticism? Perhaps people think that Mbadi could be speaking for someone else, [11:28] not him. Do you believe so? Of course, the vehemence and the attack, especially on people like us, might [11:41] want me to also think that what could be behind such vehement attacks. But like I told you, [11:53] I'm thinking that and believing that if we are in a party, we should be driving the same way. And in all, [12:02] honestly, honestly, if we are really for the ODM party, the best thing that can happen to ODM party is [12:10] see if we could have all the factions that are actually right now out and about, whether it is [12:19] Linda Manainchi, Linda Ground, Linda Legacy, Linda, there are so many Lindas. In fact, some are still [12:24] mushroomy. If we could come back to the table, iron out our issues and have one strong ODM back to our [12:32] orange. How the party, our former party leader and our late party leader, Rahela Odinga left us, [12:43] I think we would be able to go to any negotiating table together as one. So when somebody becomes a bit [12:51] so vehement and about why we should not talk about unity of the party, then you wonder whether they are [13:03] actually being honest to themselves or are they not, there's something that they're not telling Kenyans. [13:10] Yes. Let's get to that point that you wanted to discuss. And we have seen the role of the Odinga [13:16] family increasingly become a subject of debate, not just within ODM, but also in national politics. [13:24] In your view, is the Odinga name that you have today a burden or a political asset to the party, ODM? [13:32] I would like to start off by being very, very honest with you. I am Jaramogi Odingo Dinga's daughter. [13:44] And Jaramogi Odingo Dinga is a name that has been associated with the struggles and the fights and [13:54] democracy and fighting for the people, the equality of the people, the human rights of the Kenyans. [14:01] And in the early days, when even somebody like Jaramogi came out, [14:10] graciously at that time, they were not fighting even as Kenyans. They were fighting an imperial [14:16] government and ensuring that even then justice was done. When he felt that it was actually Jomo [14:26] Kenyatta who should become the president and not himself. In himself, he knew that right now we are [14:32] being told that Kikuyu's laws, what he knew Jomo Kenyatta was a Kikuyu and he was a Luo, but he felt [14:38] that he was the one with the righteous. He had the right to be the president more than himself. And [14:45] he did that and then became the vice president. But even when he felt that even as being a vice [14:51] president, he was not serving the people the way he should have, I think he stood down. I don't think [14:59] many people will leave the position of a vice president to become back to the people because [15:07] he feels that he can serve the people more better when he was there. So I come from that background of [15:13] Jaramugi's daughter. And that is a background of actually fighting for the people of the government [15:21] of the people and for the people and on democracy and equality and not tribal Kenyan unity and finding [15:31] out that we are together. So I am Ogingo Dinga's daughter. And remember as early as 1969 when my [15:40] father had already gotten into the, had already left the government and formed his Kenya People's Union. [15:46] I remember that in 1969 when we had president coming to open the Russia hospital, I was a young [15:57] girl of about only six years old and my father went with me. No, my father was going with Raila and [16:07] Kerr, Odungil and then now Kerr. But he was then my father's assistant. And I was the one who was there [16:15] in the back of Raila. He carried me. I was six years old. I was with him when that uprising happened [16:21] in Russia hospital, now called Jaramugi Odiga hospital. And after when they started, the chaos came in, [16:29] we went in and as young as I was, I was standing in a doorway and my father was inside, [16:36] hiding inside there. And the troops asked me if you'd seen the old man. And I told me that [16:42] he's gone that side. And so they didn't get my father over there. A young feat for a young girl [16:50] that I was applauded for it, but I didn't understand. I also did it because I was there with Raila and we [16:54] were directing that he should, she's not there. So he wasn't taken in. But then after that came the [17:01] house arrest, I lived under the house arrest. I was that young. I'm the one who used to be able to [17:07] carry all the letters and messages from there, because remember that they were there under house [17:15] arrest. To live in the morning, to go to school, you had to go into the century and you had to be [17:19] stripped off your clothes and then wear them so that there's nothing you have carried out and inside. [17:25] But I still managed, and I will not tell you exactly, but I managed to carry out missives [17:32] to the outside world, the people my father wanted, and also carry back missives inside. [17:37] So I learned not only to be, it was very traumatic for a young girl coming there, the policemen were [17:45] there, but I still managed to come in. So I went through all that with my father under house. House [17:53] arrest is something that you not wish even one of your worst friends, because house arrest is a place [17:59] that even us as children after five o'clock immediately you leave school, you are in the house. [18:04] There's no way you can go, you can't play with your neighbors, you can't do anything, you can't [18:09] come outside the house. So you are also under house arrest. It teaches you a lot of resilience, [18:15] it teaches you a lot of learning how to live with guards who can walk in and check the food [18:20] anytime and be there and teaches you to be able to live with a girl. So basically we realized to the [18:28] point that this, my father did not relent. That means that he said that if it is what he has to go [18:35] through, four Kenyans to get the freedom he felt they needed, he had to go through. Even his children [18:43] had to go through it. Because I think as a person, seeing your children going through that and you [18:47] still continue being resistant and saying that I will still stand for what I want, meant that we also [18:54] learned. So I think that as an Odinga, I went through all that as a child. So it's something that [19:02] taught me a lot of resilience, a lot of toughness and a lot of being able to weather storms when it [19:12] comes to the political scenario. So as you're asking me whether I feel that it's not only in that one, [19:21] we have gone through a lot of issues in life. That is just one of them. Under my father being under house [19:30] arrest, remember that also in 1982, we had an attempted coup in Kenya. Well, there's allegations [19:43] that my brother Laila Molodinga was implicated or there was allegations that he was part of the coup. [19:53] And so there was a lot of manhunt and arrests being done of the people who either was associated [20:04] with him or who are, you know, close to him. I happened to be one of them. Well, that is when I [20:11] was in Form 5 in school. And I used to live with them. Actually, by the time this happened, even Mama [20:16] Ida was not around. She was in Germany. So I was the person who was around. And after they had arrested [20:21] him, they also were looking for me. They were very famous. I don't know whether they're called famous. [20:29] That was Soki Singh and Patrick Shaw. And when you had Soki Singh and Patrick Shaw looking for you, [20:35] you were not comfortable. So I was in Kenya High at that time. They were looking for me. And so the [20:42] other way was to add myself in or to find a way out like every other person who they had been looking for. [20:50] So my father arranged and I had to leave the country. I'm one of the first women exiles that left Kenya [20:57] to go to Uganda, where I stayed under a very rough regime of Obote, the second regime of Obote, [21:05] at the Nile Mansion. And that was so traumatic for me because the seventh floor where I was put up, [21:14] fifth floor was the torture chambers. And so I was only a girl of Form 5. So when I called my dad, [21:21] they decided to take me to Tanzania. And I stayed also under very harsh conditions. [21:30] In Tanzania, before I eventually had to go to Zimbabwe, where my sister, my older sister, [21:42] Barry Lodinga, the first woman, my sister was the first woman town clerk and first black in Zimbabwe. [21:53] So basically, that was very traumatic. But when I was in Tanzania, one of the reasons why I say it was [22:02] traumatic is because I met other fellow refugees or fugitives at that time. And one of them was, [22:18] the two, there were quite a number, but the two I remember I had to go and we saw at the Tanzanian prison, [22:25] in the Salaamu Zochuka and Okumu, who at that time, they had said they were going to repatriate to Kenya. [22:36] But we thought that the President Nyerere would not do that. Eventually, they were brought back. [22:51] And I remember being one of the people who was telling them when we went there that, [22:54] just go, even the inhaler has been picked up, and it will be okay. But they didn't make it. [23:12] They were hanged. That in itself is a position that can never allow me not to stand for democracy. [23:30] Because even when they were going, they said we are going, but you who remain behind, [23:38] make sure that the change we are looking for is gotten in Kenya. [23:43] So, I was about 19 years old. So, I then ended up in Zimbabwe, where I had to then now do my A [24:01] levels. I had come from Kenya for five, went through all that. By the time I was getting into school in [24:08] Zimbabwe, from six, I had been doing in literature. I had to do Shakespeare in that one year. I had been [24:22] doing geography of Kenya and West Africa. I had to now get into doing geography of Southern Africa. [24:32] I did history of Oyo, Kingdom of Oyo, and now I had to do the Boer, history of the Boers and all. [24:41] But I did it in that one year. I also started, did what I could there. When I came back, [24:50] they said that, before that time, there was no this Kenya Qualification, what do you call it? [24:56] Kenya Qualification, National Qualification Authority. So, they say that this being my GSC [25:05] exams that I had done, which were not Kenyan, either I repeat from six, or I, but I couldn't go in, [25:13] or I go in as a foreigner. So, my father said, how would my daughter study as a foreigner? So, [25:18] I had to go and live and go to study in Norway. It's interesting. I'll tell you that later. [25:26] But, I want to say that it was not very easy because we had to go through all this. [25:38] And yet, my schoolmates will be surprised. Why in Kenya here? Jokindungu is my best bit, [25:47] not even classmate. The justice, Jokindungu from Kenya High. They were here. And that's why [25:55] sometimes I laugh when somebody tells me, because by the time I went to Norway, now that is just [25:59] a bit of a crack. When the time I went to Norway, there were literally no Kenyans. Most of the people [26:05] who were there were just West Africans. So, when nobody says, why did I get mine in West Africa, [26:09] I wish I had the chance to live in my country and get the Kenyan handsome men that I see here. [26:18] You'd really tell us about that if he'll allow us. But, it is against this backdrop that some people [26:24] could say that ODM has been a personality driven party and not a fully institutionalized one. And [26:31] perhaps that's why we are seeing these factions. What do you think? [26:35] How would it be a personality driven party? Because long before we even got ODM, ODM is a very recent [26:45] party that is here. And ODM was formed. I really find sometimes very difficult for us to call ODM as a [26:56] party. Because ODM is a movement. And then we had the parties. We did have, before we got there, [27:04] remember there was Ford Kenya. And then when we had Ford Kenya. Yeah. And later on split [27:12] Ford Kenya, where Raila now came out and reformed the NDP. Yes. The National Democratic Party. We [27:20] actually, Raila was there and I think he only had Omino. Most of the, the, and then later was joined [27:29] by some other members. Because at that time, most of the other members were Ford Kenya. They had already [27:35] gotten in by Ford Kenya. Even like my brother, Buru and all. So meaning that splitting from [27:41] Ford Kenya, I would mean that they would lose their parliamentary seats. But we went on and he went to [27:47] VAI. And I think that is one of the only ones I can say that, Raila, we never got the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the certificate. Because really, uh, [27:56] that was when it was being formed. We did get a few MC, uh, councillors then. Yeah. For where we had, [28:05] and he had people that supported, that were supporting him. Yeah. Uh, like, uh, uh, from Kisi, [28:16] from Western Kenya, you know, even people like, uh, Fulabuke and all that. But then he went into that in the NDP. [28:23] And that's when now, after that, we had NDP. And then, as we moved on until we got NAC, and then [28:32] Orange Democratic Party. And I think the Orange, uh, many people don't understand that Orange, if you do [28:40] ask even the ones who are now talking right now, where it came from. Orange Democratic movement came [28:46] from what you call the Orange movement. I don't know if you know about the Orange movement of, of the East [28:51] Europe. Mm-hmm. And it came because of the, the kind of suppression and oppression that was being [28:58] seen in the Eastern Europe, and then it came there. And so that brought in that name, but plus the [29:03] Democratic aspect of that movement. Right. So when you talk about Orange Democratic [29:09] movement, yeah, it's a movement that wants the say of the people and of the people. And, uh, when you [29:18] talk about it being a personality-driven party, because I, for example, I did not have to be in that [29:26] party if I didn't believe in the fact that it's actually one that looks after, that is of the people, [29:34] and is made of the people. Why I say this so strongly? One of the biggest reasons why I say this, [29:40] if you look at even how we went about the referendum, look at it. When we did the 2005 referendum, [29:50] Yes. You realize that was the orange banana. It was called, the symbol was orange banana. Yes. And that [29:59] was for, for that, for us to get that constitution in 2005. Mm-hmm. I remember by that time, I was [30:09] actually in the team that was led by Uhuru Kenyatta. It was Ruto, uh, the now President William Ruto, [30:19] Balala, myself, were in one team that was, uh, driving the orange team at that time. Mm-hmm. [30:28] But we went, the whole teams that were formed went throughout the whole country. It was like a proper [30:36] campaign to get the views of the Kenyans ending up with that referendum that was there. That people [30:45] must be able to say, this is what we think the new constitution should be, this is what we want, [30:50] this is what you, whatever. People were not just brought for anything for them to say, this is what [30:56] we want. So it was a people driven process. Yes. Come the 2010, now the yes and the no. Mm-hmm. [31:06] Remember how that was so vigorous. Actually more vigorous than any campaign that we've gone through, [31:13] because apart, apart from the two or seven campaigns, I never saw the 2010, the red and the green. [31:23] Huh? We went to the people to tell them exactly what we want. And I remember I was in the team [31:31] of Nyaza, led by my brother Oburu, who was leading the Nyaza team. And every other area region had [31:39] teams that were there. Mm-hmm. And our main issue was to go to the people and just convince them and [31:45] talk to them about why we want this new constitution and what it will entail. Even I was convinced as I was [31:54] talking about it, that actually a third gender rule was in it and that women were going to be included [32:01] into this. Mm-hmm. And that to me was one of the overriding reasons why I decided to even vie [32:08] for governorship of Kisumu County. Mm-hmm. And if you saw it, so many women even came out and [32:15] vied, yeah, in different areas. In fact, in Kisumu, I think we were even three women who vied for this [32:22] position because of that conviction of what people felt that, yes, this new constitution [32:29] bring even devolution, bringing all this governorship. But we went to the people. Mm-hmm. [32:36] We went to the people. There's nothing I've seen that you'd say is a personality driven, [32:42] because there's nothing. Even our party leader, Naila, even as recent as when he was being told [32:50] that there's an MOU, he said, let me go back to the people and talk, go around the country and find [32:59] out if the people would want us to go for this MOU. Mm-hmm. So basically, and if you leave that, [33:12] the diversity of this party would not be one that you would say is a one-person, [33:18] one-man party. Mm-hmm. Because if I see it now, I would still want to tell you that this is the only [33:27] party that transcends and was actually in nearly, there's no county in Kenya, you would say that ODM [33:37] does not have membership. Mm-hmm. And that we do not feel any candidate in any position. Yeah. [33:43] So I think to me, the fact that it is a party that was still seeking the mandate of the people. Mm-hmm. [33:51] And looking for democracy. Mm-hmm. And one of the only party that I recognize the women wing. Yeah. [33:59] As an independent wing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And also the youth wing. Mm-hmm. [34:04] I think that is something that was not there in any of these parties that were there before. So I think [34:10] that we have one of the best parties that was ever formed. Mm-hmm. And we should look after it. Mm-hmm. [34:18] Yes. Speaking of this party that has been ever formed, do you think it should be filled in a [34:23] presidential candidate next year? The election is only 15 months away. Yeah. In your assessment, [34:32] should ODM fill a candidate the way it has done since 2007 to date, either directly or indirectly? [34:41] As far as I'm concerned, it still comes to the people of Kenya. Mm-hmm. [34:46] What would the people of Kenya want? To me, I still believe. And if you would have given me the chance. Mm-hmm. [34:54] I would have said that we would have had our own little referendum to ask the people that this is [35:01] the first time you're not filling a candidate. Are you comfortable? And what are the pros and cons of [35:08] not filling a candidate? And do you think that if you are asked as people that you have [35:14] a candidate, would you want a candidate? Who would you also want as a candidate? Mm-hmm. [35:20] And if that candidate is there, would you want them, would you work hard enough to make sure that [35:26] that candidate becomes a president? Mm-hmm. [35:28] Yeah. Because if we do that, then we are now dealing with ODM the way ODM is as a party. Mm-hmm. [35:36] But for us to lead from the front and lead from the top and not involve the party organs. And the party [35:48] organs is large. I would like to tell you a very good story that happened to us in 2007. And this is [35:58] what is bringing me back to what many people are tending to say I am pulling or maybe asking about [36:09] reconciliation. I have been in the process of reconciliation in Kenya and outside Kenya. And [36:21] I've seen it work. And that's why I believe that actually even the ODM reconciliation of bringing us back [36:29] together is actually not something that is not achievable. Okay. In 2007, after the [36:36] fracas, after the announcement of the elections, of course, then we had started the post-election [36:42] violence and the chaos. My brother sent me out. And it was a very risky mission because I left [36:50] Wilson Airport. There were about two or three of us. And took a private plane to Tanzania, Dar es Salaam. [36:58] In Dar es Salaam, we arrived. And through some of the friends that we had, and remember ODM and also [37:07] Raila has got a lot of friends across the country who had been watching and who are also interested [37:12] in the results that were happening. Some of these people, we had the former Prime Minister Wairoba, [37:20] we had Advocate Mkono, we had Obeto, we had Masweti, who was the CCM, Maswetu, who was one of the CCM [37:31] . And they told us that in fact, it's so good that I had gone and [37:40] that the day before, then Uhuru Kinyata had already come to tell them that actually it is [37:48] Kibaki, who won. So they said they would make an appointment for me to see the president. And I [37:55] said, wow, that is good. We did get the appointment. But I called my brother and told him, I'm here in [38:00] Tanzania, Dar es Salaam. And we have now a secured appointment with the with the president. But I [38:09] cannot go and talk to the president myself. As you know, I was a senior very young girl. What [38:13] would I go and tell the president? And that's when they came up in their team and said that Nyong'o [38:20] and Joe Nyaga, who had been in the University of Dar es Salaam with President Kikwete should come. [38:28] I have evidence. I think I even have a photo. We did have the meeting and that's when they brought [38:35] in Mkapa and the former president Mkapa and they also brought in Grasha Michelle to come together [38:42] with him to Kenya for that talk that was happening. I happen also to have connections because as you [38:50] know, I have Ghanaian connection and our party, the Buzia party, you always make fun of me as Mrs. Buzia, [38:58] is the NPP party. And the president that we had then was Kofo. And so through that connection, [39:04] we did get President Kofo to also come and join in the talks. And you then know what these talks [39:13] were. And that talks, we had everybody, even President William Ruto was there. We had people [39:19] like Arolio Mondi and they know the role that we played in ensuring that we had the talks that brought [39:27] in that dispensation. And that was even a more serious one than what we are talking about the [39:35] differences that we have in this part. And therefore, that for me, I was feeling that I have played that, [39:41] I have played that kind of role. I also have played a very big role. When my brother was in DRC, [39:50] we had a lock. There was no way President Shakedi could be able to rule because Kabila had [40:00] marshaled all the smaller groups, parties, and therefore it was very difficult for him. [40:06] Now, I had a friend and I still have a friend who was called Lukwebo, Bahati Lukwebo, and he had his [40:12] party. And Lukwebo ensured that they met with Raila and together we convinced him so he could become [40:22] the Speaker of the Senate and then have his party together with Shakedi so that then Shakedi would [40:28] be able to have the numbers he needed to be able to rule in DRC. I believe that on the right [40:37] also did this when it was with Somali. I think he also did it in the Cote d'Ivoire and a lot of [40:45] countries to try and bring that reconciliation. I know we have got good friends even when we had [40:52] all these issues. We have friends who have supported ODM and the processes of bringing reconciliation even [41:00] from Uganda. We have the people like, what do you call, we have friends like Captain Mukula and we have [41:13] the Otunu, Professor Otunu who have all been there and are still willing. The people mentioned we are [41:30] willing to come and support the process of ensuring that ODM can still come together. We can some things [41:39] we must be able to sort out ourselves locally but some might be above us. I myself, I might tell you, [41:47] I vied as a governor and it's in records that I was pronounced and I announced the winner of that [41:55] elections as a governor but I was prevailed upon. It was not a very easy situation for me but sometimes [42:04] the party becomes bigger than you and when the party becomes bigger I was asked to step down [42:10] for somebody who I knew I had actually beaten in the elections and I became the deputy governor of [42:18] Kisumu County. It means that if we could all sit down and not think we are above the party [42:26] and not look at ourselves as the the the the the the the the the real leaders yeah and think of the [42:34] people that because this party is about the people and how does it happen. How many times has [42:41] Israel Odinga relented even though he knows he's the one who won the elections because he thought Kenya [42:47] was bigger than himself and so it we must also do the same and stop chest thumping in this our party [42:57] and look at it that whatever decisions we are making is it for the good of the people and have [43:03] we consulted the people because we are servants of these people we are not the leaders we are not [43:11] they are not I I'm seeing a lot of chest thumping and a lot of self-grandizance in the party [43:20] and I feel so sad that in that end it turns out that those of us who are trying to say that hey let's [43:27] look back for the sake of making sure that this party uh is is then the legacy of the person who has [43:39] sacrificed the most to have this party where it was is maintained what do we do to ensure I am not [43:48] saying who is right or wrong I am saying that whether right or wrong Raila Odinga and the members [43:57] that have been this party we've been accommodated this is a democracy in a democracy you must the [44:06] even if we are minorities even if I'm a minority in this party but I must have my say even if the [44:13] majority must have their way. As you call for this closing of ranks between Linda Ground and Linda Mwananchi [44:19] some have called you a Linda Mwananchi sympathizer and they have gone on to question your ability [44:26] to be neutral in this case others have also said that you are sitting on the fence what would you [44:32] tell them? I've never heard about me being somebody who sits on the fence because I don't know what this [44:39] fence is yeah when you say that you want people to come back together and when you say that you would [44:46] want dialogue to reign in any situation what makes you a fence sitter because when did we be because [44:56] we've differed in opinion yeah and I think it's differing in opinion unless there's somebody who's [45:03] pushing something another agenda to ensure that we must be divided I think that to me people are [45:09] differing because some people say they want this party to go this way them people are saying they want [45:14] this party to go this way and I'm saying yes let's let's just have those ones and bring your points to [45:20] the table but let's be let's do it inside our ODM in our house here yeah and it's like when you tell [45:28] your mother that you're now being a fence sitter how does a mother be a fence sitter when the two of his of [45:35] the children were worrying and he wants them to come together so that we can come back and agree [45:42] and it doesn't mean therefore that if the mother is saying yes you are the bigger one and probably [45:49] you have got this thing to say but do not finish the smaller boy because he's a younger boy you [45:57] understand you know there's sometimes that a bigger a bigger son can be unfair to the younger one and you're [46:03] trying to say hey but even you listen to what this younger one is also saying it does not mean you're [46:08] favoring one more than the other but I will still try to look at who is looking at the interest of the [46:17] people or the legacy of what Rayla Amolo Odinga stood for because we must remember yeah and in remembrance [46:28] yeah as the Odingas and this I will include even my brother Buru very clearly that we've come from one [46:35] stock and that is the stock of Jaramoga Odinga and even he himself is a believer in that of the rights [46:44] of the people yeah he's a believer of the rights of the people and that I will not say that because [46:51] many people would ask me oh you seem like you're going against your brother or guru I am not going about [46:58] against my brother guru I am talking about how do we where have we listened and where are we [47:06] getting the people even right now as we are going down to do public participation because rallies can [47:13] be public participation town hall meetings are public participation meeting with party officials is [47:18] public participation but is that public participation really getting us the results we want of ensuring [47:25] that all our our members and are we listening to what the ground is saying what is the ground saying [47:35] yeah speaking of those who accuse you of being a Linda Monanchi sympathizer not Linda ground [47:44] we saw during that special national delegates convention that was taking place a few weeks back there was a [47:52] parallel one that was led by Linda Monanchi and in that particular function Sifuna himself whom you've time [48:01] and again defended said that he cannot be there the SG of a mediocre leadership and actually asked Oburu [48:09] Oginga is your brother to look for another SG do you agree with him that I am not going to talk for Sifuna [48:17] and neither will I also talk because we've also had the other side also talk also on it's like two worrying [48:24] factors yeah and talking about whatever and maybe also Sifuna maybe he felt that the way he was told to [48:32] step down was not procedural was not correct and maybe he was just reacting to that kind of situation so for me [48:40] I would not want to be pulled into the into those what Sifuna says or what as I told you or the other [48:49] function also says against Linda Monanchi and Linda ground that's why I was telling you I would not want this [48:58] today to be able to talk on the issues of Linda Monanchi, Linda, Linda Monanchi, Linda ground [49:07] because there's another Linda that has come up I had it in Kisumu Juzi [49:11] this is another new Linda legacy yeah there's a new Linda legacy [49:16] so as we continue this Linda's might become too many [49:21] and forget about one but as I'm speaking even the Linda when I ground now I get confused about [49:30] these leaders the Linda ground yes has now come back to say that they're now Linda they're now [49:38] ODM ODM what they are now there's no more they are now more no more in the ground [49:45] yeah so it means to me that is something so good so if I could also see how this Linda Monanchi [49:54] can also come back to Linda to ODM then we now sit down and say where are our differences what are [50:02] we going to do are we agreeing on an ndc coming or how are we ironing out our problems and somebody [50:10] should not say that some people have gone therefore they have won in any situation in some negotiating [50:17] table that people can come together and agree on issues there's nothing about saying we are [50:24] sending anybody out and if anybody wants to go let them go but not that you're saying the whole [50:31] we should not have people together first let's offer that one and I'm very happy that my brother [50:37] the party leader has in his last meeting said that the door is open for anybody who wants to [50:47] come back into ODM although he qualified it but he said that the door is open so to me that is [50:54] another way of saying that at least this dialoguing can happen and I believe that if we could have [51:04] those members of ODM who then just see chest thumping or feeling that they have won it is not about that [51:13] ODM is not about you leaders chest thumping ODM is a party for the people and let the people have the [51:21] chance of looking after this party yeah what do you make of Oburu's leadership he has time and again said [51:29] that Raila's shoes despite Raila being his younger brother were too big to fail but in his words he [51:36] said but what do you make of his leadership so far I would like to say that Oburu Dinga having just come in [51:49] first of all I would like Kenyans and I heard Karoli say something that was to me very fundamental [51:58] that much as we all look at us and think that we are made of stone or actually we are not even Kenyans [52:06] remember that even some people are still affected by the death of Raila Moro Dinga Oburu Dinga was a very [52:15] close brother very close they are remember they've got about only a year or something between them yes [52:22] and they've grown up together and I'm sure you also have a brother that you know maybe you know and you've [52:28] grown up and to the point that they they were actually looking after themselves especially when they [52:32] lost a very powerful father too yes so uh the death especially the death that nobody expected of Raila [52:42] was a death that happened and then he was brought in immediately before even the body came to Kenya to [52:50] be told now you must run this party I think he's done exemplary well given the circumstances that he [52:58] was under and then the the pressures of the people who are around him who said this he must do and having [53:07] been someone who has been in in actually senior positions too that Oburu has been and has done very [53:13] well one of the best performing MPs we have has been Oburu yeah and he's been a senator yeah he's been [53:21] in the Yala and he's been assistant minister even in treasury he was a very good person uh [53:30] Oburu is one of the best civil servants I knew as an economist so I think that here he is trying to ensure [53:41] that the different factions that are in the party and I'm telling you there are a lot of different [53:49] factions that all want to ensure that what is the stake in this party who is there who wants what and [53:57] whatever and he's holding that helm if you leave all that there's also the other forces like there's no [54:07] money in the party yeah we are fighting to ensure that we get back we get our our political parties [54:14] share and all that so for me I would say that uh my brother Oburu has tried for the given the [54:23] circumstances that he's in let me take you back to uh linda monanchi how's your relationship with [54:30] let's say james orengo who's declared himself the acting pl of odm um i don't know why i would want [54:40] to be involved in this uh rengo i have had very good relationship with wandai yes i am actually i'm i [54:51] was a bit surprised when people now come to say that i've been combative i have been a very good [54:57] i've been very good relationship with wandai i've never had any proper issues with the simbarati [55:04] somebody i've supported and has supported me a lot in the party i have what uh abdul swamad [55:11] because of the the family our family the dingas and the nasir nasir the father and all that we've had [55:16] i've not had any issues with him um when you come to orengo orengo and me as i told you when i [55:25] went to zimbabwe and i was a refugee in zimbabwe orengo came and was a refugee in zimbabwe [55:31] and we lived more or less in the same house as refugees uh i have been with the rengo i've been [55:37] with a young young and young has even worked with me and has been my boss in the county government [55:43] where i had even expected because i wanted to buy a second time and that's why i was telling you there's [55:49] been a lot of sacrifice that even me personally have done and that's why i feel that when some people [55:55] who have been privileged in this party can come and say that we should not speak when most of the [56:01] dingas have never been given a chance to buy in fact there's been very few of us dingas that have [56:09] ever gotten any government position remember that even as an odinga as recent as kibaki's time is [56:17] when our names were removed even in immigration i could not get a passport unless my father wrote a [56:25] letter to the head of the to the minister of immigration that time to be able to remove our [56:33] file in the immigration it was a special file that was kept there in under the red tape that could not [56:41] be opened by anybody apart from there so even our travel was restricted getting a government job i [56:47] myself sat from when i came from norway in a room of 16 interviewers and ended up not having a job i was [56:55] the only one who was not absorbed and i had to go back to norway to do masters because i could not [56:59] get a job in kenya many of our the dingas have not been in any employment and even now i remember [57:08] there's even a sister of mine who says she wants to buy and already she's being hit because why should [57:13] a dodinga want a position yet we were hit even when rila was there when my sister when i was qualified [57:22] to become an ambassador she was the first woman to get a phd in kenya and she was been working as a [57:26] lecturer at the university of nairobi yet she when she was now being taken for ambassadorship it was [57:33] being said that why israel a sister going so none none our merit under merit class we are not even [57:42] allowed to be anything because we are rodinga on the other hand we are born in politics like myself [57:48] i believe i'm one of the best politicians you can ever find yeah because i buy it everywhere but i [57:54] will not be able to to get a position without me being told that why is she buying yeah because [58:01] she's rila's sister even posthumously i am still being accused by my fellow colleagues that because [58:10] she's rila's sister why does she think she should talk yeah and i'm like um why are we being villainized [58:17] because of this odinga name now i have had relationship with all these people nyongo or [58:25] rengo remember that they had to be coming to our home and we grew up more or less knowing them as [58:35] for me and young nyongo is my elder brother he's been in our home or rengo the time that he was there [58:43] very close to my my dad so and rila was there rila was the one who was opposing some of the things [58:50] my dad was saying and the rengo was there like the one who was now the favorite son of right and so [58:57] it's a political growing up that we know each other so you cannot now come and tell me when you've [59:02] come into politics yesterday that i should not talk to a rengo why would i not talk to a rengo or [59:08] rengo has been in this fight and this league for all this life if you disagree and you and it is allowed [59:15] for you to disagree or agree to disagree with the rengo like he can agree to disagree with you but [59:22] you cannot you wish him out of this politics yeah because and you cannot wish me not to talk to a [59:28] rengo because you disagree with him i also sometimes disagree with the rengo but does not stop me and [59:35] having that relationship with the rengo because that is what you call mature politics mature politics [59:41] does not mean that if i disagree you say ruth is lecturing people i think i even have a degree of a [59:50] right to lecture sometimes because i have got the experience and this experience is self-made yeah [59:57] because as people even say there are times that i was disagreeing with my brother kenyans know me very [1:00:05] well for saying i was against kushika mkono i have been somebody who has been saying let everybody go [1:00:13] on a fair field and one of the things i did is avoid for governorship on my own and that was a period [1:00:22] that even my own family said that we were more than four of us there was myself there was their call [1:00:28] there was and then they said that you are too many yeah and so we feel ruth you should not buy and i [1:00:40] said but the new constitution is saying that even women should buy so why don't you ask aila or the [1:00:46] guru or somebody to leave why should it be me i'm going because i'm the only woman amongst these people [1:00:51] and i died from governor of kisung and from there i also have a vibe from there you can imagine the [1:01:03] political sacrifice i made because the next time i wanted to buy i was lying against nyong who was a [1:01:09] very good colleague of my brother so i was compelled and appealed to by my brother not to buy against nyong [1:01:16] but to support him and i did full-heartedly so when somebody says the truth does not even listen [1:01:23] to the brother and i i listened to him and left being a governor to become a deputy again listen [1:01:32] to him not to buy as a governor again so that i could become the first governor woman and be and i [1:01:40] i thought i was going to be made a deputy by him he didn't he gave me a director an advice under [1:01:50] director in his office imagine coming from 600 000 to 100 000 because you be your sister yeah what [1:01:59] kind of sacrifice can somebody make more than that and you're still being called that you're somebody [1:02:05] who feel privileged when there are people who have gotten and they can they're saying it themselves [1:02:10] they have gotten from chair to assistant ministers to whatever and this in this environment some of us [1:02:16] even what you have fought for you are not being given because you're somebody's sister i mean to be [1:02:21] honest i'm a founder member of this of dm and as a founder member i am still merely i thought that even [1:02:30] after the the other people went to become css somebody like me i wanted to become in central [1:02:35] committee and become even and support my brothers in the central committee you understand but i'm still [1:02:43] just a mere deputy organizing secretary i cried but i took it because i cannot leave the party [1:02:51] and neither have i ever left the party any time these things have been done many of them threaten [1:02:57] always when they're not given what they want they turn into watcha i'm going independent [1:03:04] some of us have remained loyal and i've stayed in this party for as long as we know so basically [1:03:12] um if it is a sacrifice i think this family we've really sacrificed a lot to ensure that people go [1:03:21] because you know every time rila would want to do anything they say because that's that's the sister [1:03:28] i write and and on why are you not allowing me and i've never gotten even this last election that we had [1:03:36] i now felt that hey has another term so do i go to political oblivion or should i buy the people of [1:03:47] kisumu love me they said madam even if your brother is going to be there because i was doing his campaign [1:03:53] but why don't you campaign with you also having something to quarter kitty night were women rep [1:04:00] because they all wanted me to actually go for governor but we could not [1:04:04] go because of the imposition so they asked me to go for kitty women rep and i did go for kitty [1:04:12] women rep when they came the time that they said that they were going to give people direct tickets [1:04:18] and especially the women who buy it we all went to the house in nairobi the sauter in nairobi [1:04:26] when i realized where they invited us and say that the polls have said the odm polls have said that you [1:04:33] route you already have over 80 percent they're doing very well and if you assume so we want to [1:04:38] there's no need to go for nominations we will give you a free ticket i said no i said first of all i [1:04:46] didn't know that the odm had info track i didn't know that ldm was a apple apple whatever i thought [1:04:56] that ldm was a party yeah so where they did this info track to make sure that they were that that yeah [1:05:02] that i was having 80 percent for me and i think i was the only one and that one i can say the people [1:05:09] were put into that was me and attend yeah for me i went and i refused i walked out and i went and i [1:05:17] vied and i won in the nominations but i had six women vying with me and then another four when i think [1:05:26] we went for the main election i don't know whether there were four or three but i still got over 324 [1:05:33] 000 votes overwhelmingly winning more than even the governor because the governor had only another [1:05:40] extra one person and he still got 370 or something so it means that in overall the person who got the [1:05:46] highest votes who are in kisumu county was seen myself because i am in touch with the people [1:05:52] i and i i i i work for the people of kisumu even right now i am working very hard for the people [1:06:00] of kisumu because i know i'm going to go and if given a fair field we shall get to kisumu politics [1:06:09] actually and your track record as the the woman rep shortly but allow me to take you back you've said [1:06:16] that you have a very good relationship with the rengo very good relationship with nyongo and a very [1:06:22] good relationship even with wandai someone will say that's why you opted to back wandai for the [1:06:27] minority leadership in 2022 of ambadi um i've always known i knew and i but one day one day and [1:06:40] but i knew badly much more than mandai because i've known badly remember since body was uh [1:06:46] uh i've known badly for a longer time because he was our chair of our party before even when i got [1:06:57] into the politics and all that i had no big issue against this one my only problem was that when i had [1:07:05] already been when i wanted the position yeah and he was a new person and a young one of these young [1:07:13] people who had already come and i have this thing about young people being given chance especially [1:07:20] when it comes to our party that is one of the biggest passions i have because i believe in [1:07:26] continuity i believe in also bringing people up i started in this party a long time ago and i believe [1:07:33] that uh so much in odm which is lacking is actually bringing up the younger people there's this [1:07:43] arrogance of saying since india to my core we are the ones who own this and therefore there's [1:07:49] no much chance and as you can even see right now i even have something to say about the the the [1:07:55] youth leader the youth leader and these youth leaders across the country of odm and people who [1:08:00] are some are even over 45 and what have you so when will these other younger people get chance [1:08:05] and so one day having got had a very good track record also of how he was running his constituency and [1:08:14] enthusiastic in parliament and all that and i felt that uh buddy had already been given his chance [1:08:26] his nomination and he already had gone through all this but they had already even been a minority [1:08:32] leader ready for for for odm yeah an assistant minister and all that so mine was just to say that [1:08:39] so that we can encourage the other younger people i will i will stand up for for him so that it's not [1:08:47] automatic that it is just oh um buddy has come back he's already got a nomination and he should then be [1:08:55] given that so i didn't do it out of any selfish reason of because i personally uh had [1:09:03] preferred uh one day but i i preferred to give chance uh just like how i also vehemently really [1:09:11] supported milio diambo as a woman to become the whip yeah and actually i was for her to become the [1:09:18] minority leader yeah in uh in in whatever because that is the vacancy that came yeah be it as it was [1:09:27] she then had to become the whip and she's one i think one of our very strong women weeps and a good [1:09:36] example for all the younger women who now wants to become whips so basically if even you come to [1:09:44] kisumu you'll find that that is one of the reasons why the youth uh like me you know i'm their little [1:09:49] bit of agency because i enjoy bringing them up yeah is that why some will say you have a soft spot for [1:09:57] the likes of edwin sifuna and babu owino is actually my son i saw him grow up in kisumu remember i come [1:10:06] from kisumu and i have a lot of affinity with the people the local people one of the reasons why i am [1:10:13] very popular within kisumu is that i am one of the few people who was born in kisumu left went abroad [1:10:22] studied abroad did everything but when i came back i never stayed in aerobic i went back to kisumu [1:10:28] so i am a real typical kisumu person so when i was living there i knew even babu's mom babu's mom is [1:10:36] one of the ladies who i know very well i know babu i know babu's history babu is a born kisumu person [1:10:44] you see those boys you see running up and down in kisumu babu has been brought up by the as them so [1:10:50] you're not talking about someone who is what but if you can even do it in kisumu and come and do it [1:10:57] in a row yeah then you know that he has got his own potential that should be looked into maybe [1:11:03] sometimes i always tell him he didn't end up for a point but babu is my son [1:11:13] and sipuna all the young people yeah should be given a chance to be able to air out their views [1:11:23] they might not speak the language as correctly as how the seniors would want but that is how their [1:11:30] language is we should also now see how we also adapt to it or maybe we're going to ai and start [1:11:36] learning how they are talking because you see you must understand that language so sometimes it can be [1:11:44] bubble it can be weenie it can be any of these young people but we cannot also ignore them in in in [1:11:54] life having said that i believe and i'm very strongly saying this that um the voice of the people must [1:12:07] have must be heard and some of us are here to ensure that the voice of the people are heard and we [1:12:14] listen to the ground and i will not be shy away from always defending the rights of the people [1:12:26] regardless of being intimidated and i don't think i will allow myself to be intimidated it might be [1:12:34] isolating it might be a lonely path but the precious path of ensuring that you do what is right by the [1:12:47] people is a right that i believe i want to protect because kenyans need to have their say they are the [1:12:59] majority let's get to know to know in you more and more we've had a bit of your history first [1:13:06] politically before we get personal you're the woman representative for kisumu you've done four years [1:13:13] you're heading into your fifth year next year is election year will you be going for the same seat [1:13:20] or are there higher ambitions first of all i must tell you before i became uh a politician i was a [1:13:31] business lady i used to run inspector uh before i ran inspector international i was running one of the [1:13:38] biggest petroleum companies called petro plus africa our headquarters was in dubai and then kenya and the [1:13:47] us were in lisoto and nigeria lagos and i used to be the uh md for for that for for petro plus africa [1:13:57] our partners were south africans and it was out of that that we we revived the spectra international [1:14:03] because we wanted to use the the ethanol and the fuel to do bio fuel in kenya however because of the [1:14:13] the tariffs and the laws of kenya it was very difficult for us to do the blending so we ended up [1:14:20] now just doing the ethanol so i ran the ethanol factory and we're one of the biggest ethanol plants [1:14:29] in kenya but due to the high tariffs of kenya and taxation which is very probably prohibited of doing [1:14:38] business in kenya one of the biggest barriers of doing business in kenya is the kind of taxation [1:14:45] and the the business atmosphere of you know how we deal with even our business partners we had to [1:14:52] sell most of our alcohol like what is now happening the taxes are better in in in uganda so we were [1:15:00] selling the ethanol in uganda and rwanda bulundi other than kenya where the taxation was even over 100 [1:15:11] percent yeah of that they were being charged for the ethanol here in kenya so we were we had to sell [1:15:21] mostly to to there and kenyans had to to resort to illicit blue yet they're the ones with the ethanol [1:15:29] factories that is how sad it was in kenya after that when i decided because i told you that i went through [1:15:37] the referendum and then decided because one of the criteria so that you should have been a ceo [1:15:41] yeah to become a governor and because i really am the politician who prefers governance i got into [1:15:49] governor i i got into that because i preferred that one than actually legislation so that's how became [1:15:56] i got in because i thought that having used that and i was actually running one of the biggest factories [1:16:01] in kenya of over 700 employees and and so that's how i moved into governorship uh in governorship when [1:16:13] i became the deputy governor i must proudly tell you that i'm the first i'm the first person who [1:16:20] developed the performance management system for kisumu county which was now emiliated by the other [1:16:26] counties in kenya i also became in charge of the service delivery union first of all i became in charge of [1:16:33] this revenue uh revenues department of kisumu county where after doing the revenue i actually reported [1:16:44] even to the senate that is something you can actually see i was in the senate when i said that [1:16:48] the corruption that was in kenya was in kisumu was so rampant that we were losing one million kenya [1:16:56] shillings in revenue per day and in three months the auditor general also came out with a report that [1:17:04] was saying that was saying that kisumu was losing 364 million a year in revenue i was in the senate and [1:17:13] i also went to the senate to against my governor on the corruption rate in kisumu i was also very very [1:17:23] vocal in the stopping all this benchmarking that was happening at that time because you remember at [1:17:30] that beginning there was always that oh mcs are going to israel to benchmark or they're going to [1:17:37] nairobi to mombasa to benchmark and i remember even actually if you remember there's a gentleman called [1:17:44] when i stopped a flight of mcs going to nairobi to benchmark and say that there's no way they can use [1:17:54] air tickets of over 70 something whatever to go to nairobi to go and benchmark and then they were [1:18:02] supposed to go to israel and i said but tanner river one of the counties had just come back why couldn't [1:18:07] they just get the report of that from them then to go back there i then was very very vocal about [1:18:17] corruption and i played a very big role in that especially developing uh a monitoring and evaluation [1:18:27] system for the then sub-county administrators because remember when we started the government [1:18:32] and the county governments there was a heavy competition between the the then uh government [1:18:39] administration that the dccs and the accs the chiefs then and the county government sub-county [1:18:47] administrators and all and so the our sub-county administration was rendered useless but then i did [1:18:54] under my service delivery units make sure that they were trained and taught how to do my money and [1:19:00] evaluation so that they could monitor our our projects and we developed the pmc which is the [1:19:06] project management committee is compressing of the of the community and you know different you know [1:19:14] the religious community and the chiefs so that they could monitor the projects that were being done [1:19:20] and then is when they brought it to us at the the unit and we could give it to the finance for the [1:19:25] contractors to be paid i wish that if i got to become a governor i would revive that kind of system [1:19:31] because that system worked not the system that we are now have where contractors are even committing [1:19:36] suicide because they're not being paid and no work is being done on the ground so i worked a lot to [1:19:43] ensure that time i was also the founder and the chair of the kenya network of women governors we didn't [1:19:53] have governors we had nine women deputy governors we realized that there was a lot of issues amongst us [1:20:05] that one of the issues was that there was mcs that have been brought in who are women who did not [1:20:12] understand anything about the role they were supposed to play we also had the service public public service [1:20:18] board which had the women who are not trained or even the executives so through the kenyan network of [1:20:25] women governors we partnered with u.n women u.n habitants and formed a consortium i remember [1:20:32] our our our patron was uh margaret kamar the now senator margaret kamar and she supported us and [1:20:42] to bring in the consultants who then train we would take for example go to eldorate take the women of [1:20:49] our association lamu and maybe um and bring them together and have them be trained on etiquette on [1:20:58] how to the to develop bills and generate bills and then how to enact them and all that so this is an [1:21:06] initiative that i actually spearheaded also within the country with our nine women governors and i think [1:21:13] it really went a long way because i remember that kisumu became one of the first counties to have the [1:21:19] disability act enacted with one of our disabled women in kisumu county county lagwanda so i also [1:21:28] remember being very instrumental in that one to start the disaster management act that was done between [1:21:34] us and i think kisumu was the second one after that but we we we did that also so it helped us to support [1:21:44] the women and we looked for it and remember that then in that kisumu we had a deputy governor a speaker [1:21:53] woman a deputy speaker woman a deputy woman three women out of the seven in the in the in the public [1:22:03] service board and four out of the six in the cecs and i think i played a very instrumental part especially [1:22:12] when they removed the the the the the government the county government removed the deputy the speaker [1:22:19] and ensure that the other that one woman became a speaker instead of a man and a very very dramatic [1:22:28] case where we had to even break the door to ensure that this lady got in so i have been very [1:22:34] i i won awards of gender uh gender awards for my county so that was then when i was a deputy governor [1:22:46] of kisumu i really did do a lot as i want because the manifesto that we actually using even the governor [1:22:55] was my manifesto i'm the one who had the manifesto i'm the one who had been in the as a as a as a md [1:23:03] and brought in the idea that we assume being the hub for east africa and having that we had an icdl [1:23:10] internal container depot and we could decongest mombasa by bringing in goods to the icdl and then [1:23:18] having them shipped especially across the lake through bukoba and all and when we did not have [1:23:25] enough molasses from my factory i'm the first person to use the envy uhuru and one other bridge [1:23:31] to bring in molasses from bukoba to kisumu to be used at the molasses factory so i knew it was doable [1:23:39] that we could be able to use the lake as a uh to decongest even our borders you know we have a lot of [1:23:47] issues at the borders but i also thinking that if we used the rail and the old gauge even if we didn't [1:23:55] we had did not still use the naroc the new sgr and the old gauge was revived because it already had [1:24:01] the towns molo londiani and then it came all the way through the icdl then it would also stop us from [1:24:08] the non-tariff barriers where we have so many police roadblocks so many tariffs that people pay on this [1:24:14] road and then congest this business of having a border you see a border you can stay for 10 days [1:24:22] or 12 days that is not active for for biashara so i also wanted the ring road i i have got a manifesto [1:24:30] a full manifesto that i did not have time to actually implement some of it has been done by the governor [1:24:36] now but i still believe that if given the chance to become the governor i could still do this because [1:24:44] i am born bred kisumu i understand the politics of kisumu and i actually understand the economy because [1:24:53] i have got both hands in business in kisumu having been an md of the biggest companies both in kisumu and [1:25:03] also having been the deputy governor and now the women rep who is also actively doing a lot especially [1:25:11] for the women and the youth of kisumu the latest that i've done even in my own docket is that i do [1:25:19] a lot in the blue economy i've done something on sex for fish you know kisumu we had a lot of issues [1:25:27] with women having to sell themselves to be able to get the feed the catch this i knew when i was even [1:25:36] the deputy governor it was one of the saddest things that i've ever seen but when i became a woman when [1:25:41] i became the deputy when i was even the deputy governor i tried to see how i could support the [1:25:47] women so that they could be able to have their own ways of earning this income being the the women [1:25:56] rep i have now i came up with an idea i have bought the women boats in fact even in two weeks [1:26:03] i'm giving another seven boats out and under the sex for fish i have empowered the women to be able [1:26:10] to even have their own boats which they can even hire out or they can run in them there's two groups [1:26:18] that are running them buy them even the nets you know the nets are isn't an issue so they can even [1:26:24] hire out those nets and whatever but they now have some control of even what is going on in the lake as [1:26:32] i that's as part of their income i have taken a lot of the girls back to technical and polytechnic [1:26:42] colleges and i can be proudly tell you that i have women right now young girls who give birth and back [1:26:51] to school i take them to the polytechnics pay school fees make sure that there's a fresh the [1:26:57] children can be and they go and do mostly technical subjects i have teams that have come out to attack [1:27:05] who are carpenters i have builders and i can now probably tell you that within the lumumba and [1:27:13] uh and uh anderson uh affordable housing in kisumu i've employed more than a hundred of the students [1:27:26] that have brought from the tvets who are paid for fully and completed their courses and are now working [1:27:34] and got them the employment in in whatever in fact in another two weeks also we are graduating them [1:27:40] also and being even the ones that are already working in these projects i am also doing what [1:27:47] you call grade tests for you know kisumu has got one of the highest juwakali because you know our people [1:27:54] like doing work we have the mechanics and the juwakalis of kisumu and of course we also have a very high [1:28:00] density uh high the what you would call the slums but the high population right there's the population [1:28:08] population areas within kisumu and they all turn up in the juwakalis so i actually take them for what [1:28:16] you call government grade tests and from the government greatest they are now able to work in [1:28:21] all these affordable housing and all the new where they also can develop themselves i even have those who [1:28:28] have done the grade test to the point that they're now doing diplomas yeah in whatever whatever but we also [1:28:36] do for them i do for them public participation and buy them machines that they need i buy for them [1:28:42] whether they lay the machines or the whatever i even have young ladies who will know how tools [1:28:49] that come from kisumu work in bondo with their tools their mechanics on the road we buy them the [1:28:54] uniforms so that we are transforming their lives in what i can do with other my gaff money but i also work [1:29:04] into the ministries i walk into the ministry ict department has just offered me about over 100 [1:29:13] computers which i'm taking to the technical colleges to ensure that now we can do all that so i have done [1:29:20] on the field security i have got an agronomist i think i'm one of the only ones who have been an agronomist [1:29:27] to support because our farm people don't do farming i'm also started a circle yeah and my circle is [1:29:34] actually doing very well which is mostly for the women groups that we have formed because we must [1:29:39] train you to do financial literacy in our region financial literacy is not one of our best whatever [1:29:45] but we are doing financial resources for each and every group that we give empowerment money and ensure [1:29:51] that they can now even save in the cooperative that was started for us in the region so i'm doing [1:29:59] my best to ensure that uh i could because this was for me the the the women reps office is a [1:30:07] stepping stone it was something i came into but i also felt that it was not being run correctly by [1:30:13] those who are holding it and so i wanted what i want to do in kisumu to become an example whoever wants [1:30:19] wants to come to that position i believe it's an affirmative position which is very good but uh yeah [1:30:25] i'm ready to go on to the next uh place just lastly on kisumu politics as we wind up perhaps you could [1:30:33] even make it clear that you want to be the next governor but you've been a heartbeat away from from the [1:30:40] uh top brass or the top seat in kisumu do you therefore then believe now having vied before having [1:30:50] been the number two and having all these ambitions and all these manifestos you have what it takes [1:30:57] and finally that kisumu seat itself is ripe to have a female governor um i hate i've never done the [1:31:10] politics of course it's nice to say i believe in myself but i've never done the politics of uh [1:31:19] saying that i am the one who is right so far i have not announced to anybody that i want to become a [1:31:26] governor but i'm seeing even the newspaper putting my name up as a contender and i'm seeing the people [1:31:35] of kisumu wanting me to buy for that position so i think it is more something that i will give them [1:31:43] all to you that you maybe want to ask the people of kisumu if ruth odinga would be one of the people [1:31:50] they would want to consider they would make me a governor in kisumu will you want to lead them [1:31:56] will you want to lead them i'm already leading them i'm already a leader and i will not tell you that [1:32:02] is any mean feature because i'm in a county position the women rep is actually a county position [1:32:08] and as i've told you the things i'm already doing i have i need them in fact there are some people [1:32:14] remember that kisumu has got also got a very big rule on the area there are some people that even if [1:32:19] you go to the room will still tell you that they still think i am governor and if you go to kisumu [1:32:24] i'm still called governor yeah even now i am actually high excellence yeah let's finish up with you [1:32:33] personal history and early life you've actually mentioned quite a bit of it in our interview but [1:32:39] uh like to take you back to 1991 after railers release from detention he reportedly chose to [1:32:47] firstly connect with his family in norway where you were living what do you remember about that moment [1:32:52] you've talked about it um when when we were laying him to rest but what do you remember um [1:32:59] personally i've been very close with my brother political and i uh we've gone through a lot of [1:33:09] very hard times in the politics even i think for him because i used to come around and myself my sister [1:33:23] when one and when he was around [1:33:26] and all of us we used to go to see him let's say when he was in detention mamaida and i think [1:33:36] it's one of the most painful parts when you go to see him in detention and then he'll go away and [1:33:42] he's being taken back and you're leaving and very emotional and all that but i have followed his part a [1:33:52] lot politics and so uh even when when they took him into detention and then we had to leave the country [1:34:06] and he'd come back like when he was now released and now for the third time he had to be taken back [1:34:12] again and so he said he wanted to come to norway and he came to norway the funny part is that when he [1:34:22] came they wanted to know if i was really a sister and they put him in a room they put them in a room and [1:34:31] then they put for him like a blindfold or something no no no he was dressed like a what do you call [1:34:39] them muslim oh yes the hijab the hijab and all that yeah but they forgot to teach him how to walk different [1:34:46] there's a way he the dingas walk and i think raheela's walk was very distinct so immediately he [1:34:57] walked i said that's the one who's my brother so they identified i said yes that is him and he came [1:35:06] to be with me and of course there was a refugee where they supposed to take him but uh you know [1:35:13] that was a refugee is a general hostel and all that and knowing you know they you don't blame the [1:35:19] norwegians them for them they were treated equally and that is no part of the whatever but so he came [1:35:26] and lived with me actually we were living with him in my in my house at that time i had already having [1:35:32] my my son yeah who's named after him actually sankara raila and and and i used to i was going i was [1:35:42] still in college so he would babysit for me when i go to college and stay with my son and so they [1:35:49] actually became very close but the most important thing is that um uh really somebody who really knows [1:35:56] how to in a few minutes you know the whether they were the congolese who are students there you know [1:36:02] that time there were very few and to us and to have a place where you could have raila or dinga [1:36:12] to the students you know we and we were we were very radicalized even me myself my firstborn son is [1:36:17] also called sankara and after thomas sankara you know so we were very radicalized and there we were [1:36:24] you know raila has come and therefore there was all these the the recreans who are fighting for [1:36:30] their freedom you know they had the ethiopians we had you know so he could you in a few minutes he had [1:36:37] gotten us all and the and the students from the refugees and the students from sweden and from denmark [1:36:45] but then so at that particular time my now husband was working with the norwegian human rights [1:36:54] institute and he he went with him there so that at least he could say his story and what he has been [1:37:00] through and which they were very happy about and uh through that i remember that i also we also knew the [1:37:07] and uh board the one gentleman called border nation and i'm proud to say that uh we introduced to mama ida [1:37:14] and that's how uh mama ida got the first funding for what you could call you now was now then got to be [1:37:23] known at the kenya league of women voters which is the way of margaret margaret thome was even one of the [1:37:31] the the the the the the the members there and this was and became a very big played a very big [1:37:38] instrument it was very instrumental in molding a lot of women leaders that you can now see [1:37:45] here and that came out of that norwegian visit of his and uh what i thought was so courageous is that [1:37:54] he tried to stay there but for his love of kenya he could not manage well because i remember that is [1:38:03] a time that after that you know kidako igi wa mwere kariuki wa ngondu all came and people are settling [1:38:12] down there and he said that if it meant him coming back and being arrested he would not mind being [1:38:28] arrested again and going back to detention but he was coming back to his country and he courageous [1:38:34] came back yeah on that bit just like in the early 90s reports indicate that you are with [1:38:41] rila may his soul rest in peace in his final moments yeah and there have been people saying [1:38:48] rila told them this rila told them this mbadi recently said that while people say that they [1:38:55] were told different things by baba he's not there to clarify or even defend himself what do you make [1:39:02] of all these people saying they were told this and this and this by baba for me i would i would not [1:39:11] dispute all of it but i would also not say that so many people will take advantage but i would not [1:39:18] dismiss the way he has dismissed because rila was not in detention he was not in prison he was not in [1:39:28] a sick bed as you have seen even clips rila was walking when he collapsed meaning that even actually [1:39:37] the day before and the day up before that he was somebody was talking and there was no way we were [1:39:44] told never to give him a phone so he had his phone and he was talking to people so and rila was a [1:39:53] a people person one thing i dispute of those who say that rila would say hey here listen to somebody [1:40:00] that was not rila rila will speak to someone and your next and you don't know who he's speaking to [1:40:05] and you just say okay and finish his story that was rila for you so for anybody to say that rila gave him [1:40:16] a phone and told him this one is the person this one is the one who's against me this one is the one was [1:40:21] uh betrayed me that one i will tell you is not true but that he was speaking to people i would [1:40:31] not say he wasn't because he did speak to those who dared to call him one thing i might tell you [1:40:40] some who knew that he was there as usual did not bother because you know many people also didn't [1:40:45] think that rila would die so when he's away they're busy doing their own things so not many of them [1:40:51] called as if they had premonition that he was going to die that is also not true because by saying [1:40:58] that he told me this i'm the last words how did you know that was his last one there's nothing like [1:41:03] that he was just talking uh what i know is also we limited a bit of his talk and the reason why we [1:41:11] limited his talk is that i want to be very open with you it's even colors for some of these people [1:41:18] to say who knew what rila was saying last one thing i know is that you can celebrate my brother [1:41:24] as much as you want but remember rila died a very sad man because of kenyans who had wished him death [1:41:32] this is a man who had lived his life loved by people and mostly revered by many to be in a place now [1:41:45] where he was and all he was listening to is watching if edu at all was being saying baba die [1:41:54] cursing him he should die he should be dead he betrayed us he did this so of course we limited [1:42:01] that kind of whatever for him not to get to see those kind of things but he would see you tell [1:42:06] people you think i'm dead i'm alive i'm here i'm going on but i think that it is unfair for those who [1:42:14] now want to villainize him even in death or to rubbish him rila did so much for this country [1:42:23] that i believe that he should remain respectful we should honor him and we should thank him for [1:42:32] what he has done for our country not to ask six months later where is he or what is he or what is [1:42:40] he doing rila did and i think that he we still have his spirit and also apart from the spirits of [1:42:48] his uh i think even the kennedys are still being talked about people talk about the mkrumas or mkrumah [1:42:58] himself and why would we already forget rail and say we move on i think there's a lot he's taught us [1:43:09] that we should still be able to emulate to support us in helping run the country yeah second last [1:43:18] question you are the last born child in that family this perhaps could be last born to last born [1:43:25] but you lost rila and beryl back to back how do you remember them and how has it been coping with [1:43:34] their departures that came one right just after the other i have not even had time i'm the last one [1:43:46] i look after nearly everybody in the family one of the reasons being that also i am the kind of person [1:43:52] who they call me the doctor of the family i love i love treating people in fact if you have any illness [1:43:59] just come to me i'm a doctor so basically i do take care of my family especially in that in that in [1:44:08] that matter and i was even surprised the other day that one politician would even say that that i am [1:44:20] not supporting my brother guru i do i do that even recently i actually went with him abroad to ensure [1:44:27] that his help was okay and that's not about a month ago and even when he's been in hospital here [1:44:35] where i don't even see them i only see them after when they're now carrying out but when he's [1:44:41] unwell still us from me as a family was at the time there are questions about his whereabouts or [1:44:48] a different one there were times when there are questions about his whereabouts was that the same [1:44:53] period yeah yeah okay okay yeah and so we have to keep him well it was a bit unwell so we have to [1:45:00] keep him well and keep him even when i was being attacked i was i was actually from making sure that [1:45:07] he was okay so basically um it was very hard hitting for me because i always get to know when they're not [1:45:19] well it's uh because of the instinct but also you know they took care of me i am like the first born [1:45:27] in each one of their families and even when people see me and they say oh madame ruth is with winnie [1:45:34] equally even aburus kids or barrels or when was kids i am their big sister yeah they call all call me [1:45:46] fondly auntie adiambo but auntie adiambo is the auntie adiambo who makes sure that i'm the bridge [1:45:51] between them and their fathers because some at their age some of the things they do the parents [1:45:56] will not understand so it is me to ensure that they what there's that rapport between them and so i do [1:46:05] take good care and show that i am able to manage that bridge and i would say that uh it was a bit [1:46:20] more instinctive i was there with him in narobi hospital it was a bit instinctive that i knew [1:46:26] that it wasn't that well um and suggested that we go abroad for the treatment i went a bit [1:46:35] it took me a bit longer because my passport was at the american embassy was supposed to go in parliament [1:46:40] for the imf meeting but i managed to go there and he was very happy to see me he was even surprised [1:46:48] because i carried fish and everything that normally likes to eat um those who are even talking [1:46:55] surprisingly you know that even when any of those my brothers even had coffee them the one who was [1:47:02] within even raila took him to mombasa ensure that he got away from the covid and any other time whether [1:47:12] there's they're not well because you know at a certain age you just you get to maintain them and [1:47:18] look after them same as my sister beryl because i lived with beryl you remember i told you i went [1:47:24] to exile in zimbabwe and so i lived with him her and when were they like my mothers also it's been very [1:47:34] difficult and i think a bit uh insensitive of our politicians fellow ones like us uh to especially [1:47:52] with us it's like as if um um we are equal it's like raila's death i shouldn't think that my brother [1:48:07] died i should they should even some of them even tell me that you don't know me how i'm feeling you [1:48:13] know you know how i was close to the island you don't ever remember that this was actually raila's [1:48:17] sister and uh cruelly telling us that uh we the dingas should now go to hell you know and forgetting [1:48:25] that we are also human beings is not something i've found that is very easy however me i'm here to serve [1:48:31] the people and i will not at any particular point shy away from serving the people of kenya and i would [1:48:44] like us to come to the table and bring back all these people when you see me talk about people [1:48:49] like torome when i talk about the bishops when i talk about people like topico when i talk about all [1:48:59] these leaders from turkana from bombasa kwale you know we have got this uh people want to come people [1:49:08] who've loved raila and love this party because they would want this party to come together we have [1:49:15] people from abroad when i'm talking to you i've gotten calls from people like oh beto i've gotten [1:49:21] from this uh the people like mkula they even came to the funeral they're expecting that they can be [1:49:30] called i personally talk to people like nana adu of ghana we have a obasanjo who's been our father [1:49:40] since our dad died these are people who can come because odm is not a small party odm is actually [1:49:47] a very big and important party it touches lives outside kenyans it touches lives outside nyanza yeah [1:49:57] and i'm i'm sure we would be in a better position if we could invite all these people on a table to [1:50:05] support us raila used to go and talk have one-to-one with the different presidents raila has helped [1:50:13] presidents come together why can't he also support so odm can come back as one and support oburu the [1:50:21] party leader to ensure that this party because oburu is for me i even told them oburu given chance [1:50:31] he will certain this party but i'm sure maybe the people who wanted him to become party did i don't [1:50:38] know whether whether they thought that they wanted him to really become party leader or they didn't [1:50:44] that one is a question that i will answer on my second part lastly during the burial of the late [1:50:51] raila odinga we saw you introduce your family i just wanted to find out how crucial have they been [1:50:57] in in terms of being a support system for you and also in your political journey next round [1:51:13] i'm a very good cook i love cooking i'm i love socializing i've got very many friends i am i am [1:51:24] very adaptable i can sit in the village by the way my auntie is 110 years old that is the last [1:51:34] one sister of jaramugi she's still alive and has been living with me most of the time so i take care [1:51:41] of her i have about seven adopted children i only have two of my own the other seven i've adopted i love [1:51:52] people around me so i've got a very large team of there is purity and purity is my young daughter [1:52:03] she's my photographer and she's from the mountain yeah from kirinyaga yeah she's from kirinyaga and she [1:52:12] works with me she walks around with me i have no hang up about where we come from remember that for me [1:52:19] i've i went to school in asumbi girls very naughty i got uh i was in a strike in asumbi but then i came [1:52:25] to kenya high and uh like i told you njokindungu is one of my friends i have no i i really have very [1:52:33] little bone of this this tribalism i don't really understand it that well because i've been brought up [1:52:43] in a in a multicultural society here and then when i went to study in zimbabwe i speak shona quite well [1:52:52] i speak tree in ghana i speak a bit of wolof in gambia because also my husband has worked with u.n so [1:52:59] we moved to very many of these countries so and because i love culture and i love that i have been [1:53:05] around i speak french swedish danish norwegian uh because i stayed in the scandinavian countries uh [1:53:16] basically very adaptive to everything um very amiable but stubborn not stubborn in a negative manner but [1:53:33] i believe in fairness and that is really one of my problems you will not do anything wrong [1:53:39] and and you will expect me to agree i am nowadays what i would call a fair agenda i don't want this [1:53:47] business of the people also is using gender and for their own good where they will not support what [1:53:54] is wrong like for example they'll be quiet about one day two and then make noise because somebody is a [1:54:03] governor and has been abused somewhere i don't agree in that if you are fair you are fair throughout [1:54:08] if mandato has been mistreated then we must talk because that thing of mandato is wrong you understand [1:54:16] and so and when when another woman has been raped in the village let's be able to talk about it when a [1:54:23] man has been sodomized let's also say it in our open but not not use as if they're leaders and therefore [1:54:31] because a leader has been abused therefore you know that root odinga is now bad and therefore we whatever no [1:54:39] and also i don't believe in uh even kisumu they know me i don't believe in politics of money [1:54:49] yeah because i believe in giving somebody something to do so i am not the kind of them and the boys know [1:54:56] it even if they meet me here the only other person they know is meaner than me and that one is new [1:55:02] at least me they know i'm kind i will give you something whatever but i'm not the kind of person [1:55:07] that you will come finding that i'm dishing out money for them to be clapping for me i also don't [1:55:15] get in those kind of things because i don't believe in that in me i don't believe in gunism [1:55:21] i really hate this buying our youth i prefer empowering them and so they know it they know [1:55:29] they know that yeah so i i just i am my father's daughter and you used to also say it i look very much [1:55:37] like my father uh i have some traits of mine in oburu i've taken some of oburu's traits a lot of [1:55:47] raila's traits but i am actually my father so if you see me you've seen the ramogi yeah i'm a very [1:55:53] major ramogi person who can walk with akala you know akala gingko dinga shoes you can find me i'm a [1:56:01] good avid farmer i love farming and and restaurants i used to live in akuru i used to have one of the very [1:56:10] good uh restaurants in my summer called madjengo in akuru used to make for the matatu people something [1:56:16] called dubu in the morning so that is i'm just telling you that's generally uh that's generally [1:56:27] all right thank you so much that has been ruth dinga some may refer to her as the woman representative [1:56:35] for kisumo county you could also refer to her as the sister to the late raila odinga and the daughter [1:56:42] to the late jaramogi oginga odinga speaking to us candidly in a tell all interview from matters the [1:56:50] current political tension to the future of odm to her plans for kisumo and eventually to her early life [1:56:58] as well as her personal or rather her political life my name is david mudhoka keep it here at ntv [1:57:06] as we bring you these candid conversations on the road to 2027