Richard Madeley Challenges Climate Activist That Brought M25 To Stand Still — Good Morning Britain

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Well, more and more people are trying to do their bit to help tackle climate change. They're taking it personally, but the high costs of environmentally friendly choices like electric cars, these new boilers, leave many wondering if it's just too expensive to save the planet. [00:00:17] Speaker 2: Well, following on from the latest report that the UK is still lagging behind on its climate policy, many question how our individual behaviour really could make a difference if the government isn't moving quicker. [00:00:30] Speaker 1: Well, we all saw the news pictures last night and we're joined now by climate activist Assad Rehman, UN ambassador for climate change Dale Vince and Liam Norton. These are the pictures I'm referring to from Insulate Britain. That's the climate change activist group which brought the M25 juddering to a standstill for many hours of the day yesterday. And we're going to start with you, Liam. Thanks very much for coming in this morning. Now, this is not a flippant question, OK? I just wonder what makes you and the people who performed that demonstration yesterday clairvoyant. Because how can you possibly know what's in the vehicles that you're holding up for hours? For example, if you just bear with me on this question, how do you know that there aren't parents with a child who's going to an absolutely vital appointment with their cancer specialist? How do you know there's not a funeral cortege and that people are going to their mother's or father's funeral? How do you know that there aren't people going to them is a vital job interview, which might actually be to do with helping to save the planet. You don't know any of these things and yet you're taking huge risks with other people's lives as individuals. What gives you that right and what gives you that foresight? [00:01:35] Liam Norton: Well, I agree with you that we don't know. So you're completely right. And I don't think it's about what gives us the right. I think it's about what is the reality that we're in at the moment. [00:01:48] Speaker 1: What does that mean? [00:01:49] Liam Norton: Well, it means that if you... Sir David King, the Chief Scientific Advisor to the British Government, has said that what we do in the next three to four years will determine the future of humanity. Now, you're an intelligent person, Richard, right? Can you read between the lines of what three to four years will determine the future of humanity? Can you read between the lines? [00:02:11] Speaker 1: And you're an intelligent person who's admitting that they're not clairvoyants. Can you explain to me, say, for example, the parent of a seven-year-old child who has an absolutely critical hospital appointment to deal with their potentially terminal cancer, but an appointment that may save their lives, and they find themselves sitting behind one of your roadblocks for hours on end and missing that appointment or that treatment. Can you justify that? [00:02:35] Liam Norton: I'd be furious. Well, then why are you doing it? Because, as I've just said, what we do in the next three to four years will determine the future of humanity. So this is the situation that we find ourselves in. [00:02:46] Speaker 1: So you're prepared to risk that child's cancer treatment and potentially life. Because you don't know. We're talking about many thousands of vehicles stuck behind these protesters. For hours. By the law of averages, there are going to be critical journeys that are being interrupted and stopped. Can I give you a definition of something? Yeah. And tell me what you think of it. And you are an intelligent person, so I'd like to know what you think. This is a definition. Do you know what that's a definition of? Go on. [00:03:29] Liam Norton: Well, I don't think it's fascist to have a demand of universal care. And that's what Insulate Britain are talking about. What we're talking about is the best value for money for reducing emissions per pound spent. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of proper jobs, meaningful jobs. And we're talking about stopping the deaths of thousands of our old people, which is what happens because old-age pensioners have to choose between food or heat. So that's what's going on in the United Kingdom at the moment. But why is the price... But Richard, just let me finish. [00:04:01] Speaker 1: I'm coming in on that point because it's a perfectly fair point and I've got a perfectly good... Insulate Britain is about universal care. Why is it reasonable, in pursuit of those perfectly understandable aims and ambitions, to completely risk the health, the lives, and not just getting to work on time, but the kind of scenarios I've outlined, why is that a price that people have to pay in order to support, willy-nilly, your ambitions? Because who you should... [00:04:26] Liam Norton: Yeah, well, if you want to talk about fascism, right, it's using weak people and using lies. And what we're talking about is a truth. And that's what I'm talking about. And that's what Sir David King's talking about when he's talking about what we do in the next three to four years will determine the future of humanity. What Insulate Britain are talking about is a universal care. That's what we're talking about. And you should get the government on here. You should get the Minister for the Department of Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy... Well, we have government ministers on this programme every day. And you should be asking them why it is that they're not looking after the British people's interests. And as soon as a meaningful statement is made by the government, do you know how many homes need to be insulated and retrofitted by 2050? It's 1.5 a minute. How many are being done? Zero. We've got an absolute crisis in terms of what we need to do to decarbonise our homes at the moment. [00:05:19] Speaker 2: Your campaign is to try and get people to insulate their homes. Is there not a more popular way you could do it than bringing the M25 to a standstill? As Richard said, if even one person in one of those vehicles was trying to get to hospital, you've lost everybody. [00:05:36] Liam Norton: Well, this isn't about who we lose and who we gain. This is about asking... [00:05:41] Speaker 2: You've said that's exactly what it's about. [00:05:42] Liam Norton: Well, this is about asking the government to get on with the job and then not doing. And that's what this is about. And nobody's speaking about the reality of the situation that we're talking about here. [00:05:53] Speaker 2: You've been talking about it all week. [00:05:54] Liam Norton: You've been talking about melting ice caps, which you should have been doing 10 years ago. But what we're talking about is the destruction of our economy, the destruction of the fabric of our society. What would you say... And what we do in the next three to four years [00:06:07] Speaker 1: will determine how this country... What would you say to the widow of a man who yesterday... And this could have happened. It didn't, but it could have happened. And if you continue with this protest, it could well happen. Who died behind the wheel of stuck traffic of a heart attack and wasn't able to be airlifted to hospital, driven to hospital, receive any kind of serious treatment and died in the car behind the wheel after maybe... It took my father 20 minutes to die of a heart attack. In that time, given different circumstances, he might have been saved. What would you... If we could produce a woman in the studio now whose husband died next to her in the car because they couldn't move, they couldn't get to a clinic or a hospital because of what your guys were doing, what would you say to her? [00:06:44] Liam Norton: Richard... What would you say to her? Richard, a few years ago, I was on building sites with a tape measure and a pair of pliers, and I've woken up to this crisis, OK? Sorry, you're not answering that question. Yeah, no, I'm about to. What would you... I'm about to, but what I'm saying to you is why do you think grannies are on the road yesterday? Why do you think that's happening? We feel terrible about the situation that we find ourselves in. This is the way that has been proven to force the government to act, right? And I would tell that person that they need to go and sue the government for their inaction, and this is criminal. Before they bury their husband? I would feel terrible for that situation. The government aren't looking after... But not terrible enough. The government are not looking after their citizens, Richard. And neither are you. What we are doing... Neither are you. We've got a plan... We've got a plan to insulate Britain. It's going to... It gives you the best value for money, per pound spent in terms of reducing emissions. Hundreds of thousands of meaningful jobs will be created. [00:07:43] Speaker 1: And you think that would come from somebody who missed their parents' funeral yesterday because of your protest? [00:07:47] Liam Norton: We're going to stop... What we're talking about is stopping pensioners freezing to death in their house. [00:07:50] Speaker 1: You're blocking out reality, aren't you? You're only seeing one aspect of reality... You're in denial of the reality of the crisis. You're ignoring the reality of the individual. You're seeing the reality of the state, as it were, and that's fine, but you're seeing it at the absolute expense of the reality to the individual. And that is fascism, I'm afraid. I think you need to face up to that. [00:08:09] Liam Norton: I think you're confused, Richard, about what that word is. I'm not confused at all. It's easy to throw around terms and try to put me on the back foot. [00:08:15] Speaker 1: Well, of course I'm going to put you on the back foot because of what you're doing. [00:08:18] Liam Norton: But what I'm talking about, what Insulate Britain are talking about is universal care, and that can't be fascism. Well, there wasn't much universal care [00:08:25] Speaker 1: on the M25 yesterday. Well, there was. No, there wasn't. There was. If you were stuck in the queue. Are you going to carry on with this? Because ordinary people... Are you going to carry on with this protest? [00:08:33] Liam Norton: The ordinary people that were stuck in that traffic are in the same crisis as you and me, aren't they? And this is what this is all about. The United Kingdom, this country of ours, needs to understand that we've got a crisis. So you think somebody who couldn't get to their parents' funeral... We need to roll up. We need to roll up. Who couldn't get to a serious medical appointment yesterday is going to say, [00:08:51] Speaker 1: it's OK because it's for the greater good. You really think that's what they're going to say to you? Pardon? You really think that somebody, in some of the real-life scenarios that I've outlined today, to you, this morning, you really think that they're going to say to you, if they have the pleasure of meeting you, yeah, that was OK that I missed my cancer appointment, that was OK that I missed my mother's funeral, that was OK that the funeral corte's got caught up in the roadblock, it didn't matter because it was for our greater good. [00:09:14] Speaker 2: You really think that's what they're going to say to you? It's because you want our homes insulated. Really? [00:09:17] Liam Norton: Do you know that there were pensioners drowning to death in Germany? Yes. Yeah. And do you know how much rubbish, 90,000 tonnes from the flooding in Belgium? So this is the reality that we're in. It's a really awful situation that we find ourselves in. [00:09:30] Speaker 1: Isn't there another way to draw this to our attention? [00:09:32] Liam Norton: No. Really? Yeah. This is it. So there's only one way of protesting and that's to block the traffic? It's not protesting, actually, Richard. It's called resistance. And when the government are being criminal in their inaction, ordinary people are left with no other option. That's what you see in history. And normal is over, right? And that's what Sir David King means. When he's talking about three to four years and what we do will determine the future of humanity, you need to read between the lines of what that statement means. I don't think anybody's disputing the scale of the problem. [00:10:04] Speaker 2: I think people are wondering how you carry people with you when you block the M25 and hold people up for hours and hours at one time. Let's talk to... We've got two other guests on this. Asad Raymond is a climate activist and director of War on Want. And Dale Vince is the UN ambassador for climate change. And chairman of Forest Green Rovers, the world's greenest football team. Dale Vince, is this the way to persuade people to change their behaviour? [00:10:33] Speaker 4: Look, obviously, both sides of this debate has just taken place. And I think that in order to bring about the kind of change we need, with the urgency that we need, there's a very fine line to be trodden in terms of disruption, to get attention from the government, to make the point that they're not doing enough, balanced against the impact on individuals and whether or not that actually puts them off the course. I think it's a problem, you know, a fine line to tread. But, you know, we have to do something because there is an urgency. You know, this is a vital decade, actually, to avoid the worst of the climate crisis. And what we're talking about, the livelihoods of millions of people in the very near future, if we don't act urgently and radically, then we're going to ruin their lives and, you know, the economy, the country they live in. The whole world is at risk from the climate crisis. [00:11:25] Speaker 1: You say that it's a fine line, and if it was simply inconvenience, in the way that I would have been inconvenienced yesterday, if I was on the way to cover a story and I couldn't get there, that would be an inconvenience, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. You've heard the scenarios, and they aren't silly, high-flown scenarios that I've just outlined to our guest here. That's not a fine line. That's a red line. [00:11:45] Speaker 4: No, it's a fine line because you're outlining emotive hypotheticals and what you're ignoring is the science. The science that says millions of people will lose their lives, will be displaced from their homes, have to flee to other countries. You're ignoring all of that. [00:12:03] Speaker 1: I'm not ignoring that because I agree with him. I agree that we should be lagging our homes. I agree with all the measures that we should be taking and trying to find the money because most people can't afford it on their own, and that's going to involve some kind of tax hike, but I agree with him. I'm already there, but I don't need to see people, and I'm sorry, you may say that these are hypothetical examples, and to an extent they are, but believe me, they are real too, and there are going to be real tragedies as a result of the actions that he's taking. I agree with this point, and I'm not in denial about it, but I think the methods that him and his team are using are completely dangerous. [00:12:37] Speaker 2: OK, let's ask Asad Rahman, because you're a director of War on Want. I mean, you know about the global impact of this crisis. What's your view about the threat on the day that a very controversial protest like this will have compared to the long-term impact on the government? [00:12:58] Speaker 5: Well, as Laura's piece short, we're in the midst of a planetary crisis. Last month, scientists told us it's called Redfish Humanity, and the reality is, of course, governments have long known that the climate crisis is real, they need to act, and they haven't acted. In fact, emissions continue to rise. We're likely to, we're on a trajectory to over three degrees warming of the planet, where the real question of the future of humanity hangs in the balance. So the question, yes, you know, have we moved the dial on this conversation? Absolutely. We are having more conversations about the climate crisis. Are governments listening? Well, we heard yesterday our own prime minister say we're going to dig more and extract more fossil fuels, but when we should be investing in, of course, renewable energy and public transport. Our government policies are too far away. Either targets are too weak, we don't have policies in place. So what do we do as people? Well, first of all, I think we have to recognize that, you know, this is a structural issue, right? We have an economy that's built on fossil fuels. We have an economic system where laws and rules are put in place that basically for hundreds of years have said to companies, you can exploit the planet and people to maximize profit and ignore what the damage you do. And these are really parts of our interests. And to shift them, it requires us as individuals, of course, to be ethical in our behavior, but it requires us to be active citizens, to be pushing our governments to act in our interests rather than the interests of these big fossil fuel companies. [00:14:36] Speaker 1: Okie dokie. Thank you very much indeed. You planning more sit-downs on the motorways today? [00:14:42] Liam Norton: The campaign's going to be ongoing. Yeah, until... That's a yes, is it? What we're asking for is a meaningful statement from the government that they're going to act on insulating Britain and we'll get off the roads immediately. [00:14:53] Speaker 2: People's day-to-day lives... This is the statement from the government. People's day-to-day lives should not be disrupted, especially on busy motorways where lives are put at risk and resulting in traffic delays will only add to vehicle emissions. We're investing 1.3 billion this year alone to support people to install energy-efficient measures and our upcoming heat and building strategy will set out how we decarbonise the nation's homes in a way that's fair, practical and affordable. I mean, just on that one point alone, traffic delays which add to vehicle emissions, you realise that that's what happened yesterday. [00:15:26] Liam Norton: Susanna, you and I both know that that statement is ridiculous. [00:15:30] Speaker 2: Well, you've said it's ridiculous. I'm saying that the point about traffic emissions is certainly not ridiculous. Idling traffic because you've held it up for hours is not healthy for our air pollution, is it? [00:15:42] Liam Norton: Susanna, I'll repeat, you know, you're fully aware that what you've just said is ridiculous and what is ridiculous is the 1.3 billion pounds of investment. That's what's ridiculous. So it's true... We're talking about hundreds of billions, potentially trillions of pounds is required. So Susanna's ridiculous [00:15:59] Speaker 1: because you say so. Richard, Richard, you've been to up to me. You've had a really good back of the whip and you've finished up by calling my co-presenter. Hundreds of billions is what's required. We are out of time. Hundreds of billions. 1.3 billion is nowhere near what's required. Let's cool off.