President Barack Obama in Conversation with Marc Maron — WTF Podcast

[0:01] how are you doing good buddy how are you doing we've aged i know i'm a little hunched over you [0:07] look like you're walking okay how you doing mr president it's good nice to see you how have you [0:11] been well you know i'm okay nice to meet you how come he's in a suit man because everything else [0:16] is in the wash yeah i know he's a suit guy like i had it when you were first on i was like what am [0:21] i gonna wear and i'm like i'll just wear the planet shirt i guess well you're casual yeah i [0:25] am because because i knew you would be here i think we're in here this way the uh kind of [0:32] do you basketball well uh yeah i'm signing them stuff gets stacked up that i'm supposed to sign [0:38] believe me you remember my old garage right yeah it's it's it's it's similar it's a yeah a little [0:43] meter yeah but not much okay we're rolling on both yeah everything's good i i can i say before we start [0:51] or whatever you want to start to me i can't imagine anything tougher or more terrifying than [1:01] doing stand-up comedy so once you do that yeah i mean everything else is is easy i won't say easy [1:08] i'm saying not as frightening yeah the the to me standing alone on a stage and hoping a bunch of [1:17] people laugh at your stuff yeah it's uh yeah it you get used to it yeah but not unlike i'm sure uh [1:25] your gig yeah uh you know sometimes it's not going to go exactly right it's not always gonna you're not [1:31] always gonna uh hit it out of the park right but i guess what i'm saying is at a certain point for you [1:37] there's got to be just you've had a lot of reps yeah reps are helpful man if reps in talking to people [1:43] and reps in comedy but it's weird with both for me because uh i i seem to get just as anxious and [1:50] and and it never goes away not for me because i i don't know if it's part of my preparation but [1:59] with stand-up it's a little less where like i know that a part of me lives up there yeah that that [2:05] that i exist on that stage yeah uh and so i don't freak myself out as much but with conversations [2:12] i i don't generally know what's going to happen and the anxiety is different but uh but yeah i i [2:18] still keep it fresh by being terrified well look there's uh bill russell yep bill russell greatest uh [2:26] greatest champion of north american sports yep kept throwing up even after yeah but right before games [2:34] it's true right yeah yeah i mean you gotta have a little bit of a few butterflies otherwise did you you [2:40] don't get it you know not not just having a conversation right um you know if there's a big [2:49] speech that i gotta give yeah um then there's still a little bit of a little bit of fear a little bit [2:55] of adrenaline yeah yeah a little bit of like all right let me make sure that yeah you know i got yeah [3:01] you're ready to go you're focused i'm focused lit up i'm i'm pumped up are we are we just gonna dive [3:09] in here i think we're already doing it we're already doing it i do want to ask let's go i got a weird [3:13] question i want to ask you and i decided to start with this as opposed to end with it and it's kind [3:18] of business yeah but it's important for me it's important for the show i'm gonna i'm gonna ask you [3:23] to for your signature on something absolutely what do we got is it a commutation i can't do that anymore [3:29] no this is uh i i created this pseudo legal document to to on this our last episode and this is uh this [3:37] is something i wrote and i it's uh it's honest but i i i wanted to witness and you're here so to all [3:44] concerned this is dated 10 13 25 the date of the last show i mark marin hereby formally release brendan [3:51] mcdonald from the professional responsibility of listening to me talk from now and in perpetuity [3:58] brendan has listened to me talk no less than 10 000 hours over the last 22 years often several hours [4:05] in one sitting that's a lot even more than i've listened to myself talk brendan is free to talk [4:10] to me socially but that is entirely up to him if if you choose this if he chooses to do so i will be [4:17] delighted and promise not to abuse the privilege it has been a life-changing ride on my yammering [4:23] and i am forever grateful to brendan for keeping me at my best i i am i'm more than happy i'm gonna sign [4:29] it just you sign it i will witness it and uh this is kind of a commutation i mean i'm essentially [4:37] brendan is released yes it's a it's a big day from me from you you know i have a sense that uh [4:45] he kind of liked hanging out with you yeah it was a it's been a hell of a partnership i mean [4:52] it may be a little stockholm syndrome no no he he won't let that happen yeah i'm completely aware that [4:58] i have not had that impact on his brain because if i did we'd both be in trouble he's like the better half [5:05] of uh he's protected me you know i'll say and and it'll go on uh i'll record stuff and in the back [5:13] of my head i'll think like brendan's not gonna he's not gonna leave that in no yeah yeah it's [5:18] well you gotta you gotta have uh he's like your super ego that's exactly right and he's a functioning [5:24] part of my memory yes like i don't remember like obviously i remember our conversation but there's been [5:29] 1600 and more almost 1700 conversations that's a lot so how do you so so tell me how you're feeling [5:35] look congrats first of all congratulations yeah second of all i'm honored to be on your last show [5:43] how are you feeling about this whole thing uh transition well uh moving on from this thing [5:48] that has been well uh one of the defining uh parts of your career 16 years yeah i mean [5:56] well i mean i i maybe you could help me i feel okay i feel like i'm i'm sort of ready right for [6:02] the break but uh but there is sort of a a fear there of uh you know what do we what do i do now [6:09] i mean i'm busy right but not unlike your job i'm gonna compare my job to the presidency now is that [6:15] i think it's pretty simple thank you [6:19] i've got a lot of people who over the last 16 years have grown to rely on me yes [6:23] and you've got a lot of fans just around yeah and in unlikely places oh yeah yeah as in here yeah [6:33] yeah the uh but like you know they they need something right they that there is a a feeling [6:39] of like how am i going to feel you know less alone how am i going to deal with my mental [6:45] this or that and and how am i gonna find you know a way to exist in the world that we're living in [6:51] i mean i'm not offering them solutions but i am commiserating and it's comforting they trust you [6:58] yeah and and and they feel as if what you're going through and what they're going through [7:06] occupies a similar space right and so they don't feel like they're traveling this journey that can be [7:12] frightening alone sometimes that's right and and yeah there's a power in the human voice you know that [7:17] you you grow attached to yeah yeah so when you left what did you do for your mental health [7:26] with the weight of well look how old are you now i'm 62 right so uh you know uh you you've still got [7:35] a couple of chapters left and my theory was uh somebody gave me advice right before i i was leaving [7:46] office uh and it was don't rush into what the next thing is take a beat and take some satisfaction [7:58] looking backwards and saying oh you know what didn't get everything done that i wanted wasn't always [8:03] exactly how i planned it but there's a body of work there that i'm proud of right you know pat yourself [8:10] on the back for a second just be a little brain dead for a while uh you know i i've uh read a bunch of [8:18] books that had been stacked up by i had a big uh deficit with my wife and had to kind of work my way [8:30] out of right uh so we went on a lot of trips and hung out and and you know just had nice dinners and [8:39] and slept in um and then i think you know what what this is an opportunity for for you it was an [8:48] opportunity for me was figuring out all right um what's my next highest and best use you know what's [8:54] my what what's what's a new purpose yeah that uh scratches that itch and it it may not come to you [9:04] right away the podcast was kind of a random thing right you said oh let's try this out and and yeah you [9:10] didn't know it was going to go for 16 years i i assume when you did the first show no we didn't know [9:15] anything you didn't know anything you're trying to figure it out and and and so but but you probably [9:21] have an inkling of you know what you just described about people trusting you you connecting partly [9:29] because you're willing to be vulnerable in front of people and and kind of let them know uh you know [9:37] what's going on inside your gut um there's a power to that what what's another way of channeling it [9:45] right that that may be different than you playing a character in a movie or right you know you or even [9:51] you doing stand-up there's there's something more raw honest exposed about what you do when you're [9:57] just having a conversation and connecting with people and so the question is well is there another [10:01] way for me to catch that yeah you know but you don't have to rush into it i guess my main thing would [10:08] be you know take your time right unless unless you really got some bills to pay no no i'm okay but [10:14] like it feels like the like i remember when uh you left and the you know there is this sort of a a [10:23] vacuum and and in terms of like my obviously my responsibility to to my audience is is different [10:31] but how do you sort of you know did did you feel the weight of that responsibility yeah i mean what was [10:39] unusual for me was obviously a lot of uh what i represented yeah a lot of what michelle and i had [10:50] tried to project the values are thinking about america um my successor seemed to represent the opposite [11:05] right not seemed did yeah and so i think there was a lot of anger loss a lot of sadness yeah uh some fear [11:16] uh among a big chunk of the country and i and you know one of the problems with uh the american [11:26] political system is although we have political parties we don't have a parliamentary system so [11:32] so basically the president in my case uh democrat i leave office and there's no obvious person who's now [11:44] the shadow prime minister the leader of the party for the democrats right and so there there were a lot [11:50] of terrific people who were doing good work but uh you know we have this weird situation where you don't [11:55] have a designated person who's right speaking on behalf of the whole party so um i actually found myself [12:04] drawn back in to uh uh day-to-day politics or commentary more than i had wanted to be after the second [12:13] term after the yeah in 2017 2018 um and i thought i was going to be able to remove myself more from [12:24] being out there in public and was going to be able to concentrate on what i really wanted to do which was [12:32] uh coach the next generation of leadership sure um yeah move from player to coach essentially and i kept [12:40] on being uh asked to to comment on news of the day and look at this outrage and yeah why aren't you out [12:49] there more and right and and that kind of thing um and look that's flattering yeah and uh you know it's [12:58] it's an indication that you made a connection with people sure um but i i i tried to be a little bit [13:07] disciplined about recognizing that i'd moved on to a new phase where i i did not have formal power [13:18] i have some hopefully moral suasion some some credibility yeah but i didn't have formal power [13:24] and and so more than anything for the long term what i could do that would be most helpful would be to [13:32] start promoting up lifting up shining a spotlight on those you know that next generation of of [13:42] leadership and talent uh new voices because part of what also happens is you know um you know as you [13:50] get older michelle and i joke about this um no matter how much you you want to pretend otherwise [14:01] you you're starting to get a little out of touch you're not completely you know plugged into the [14:07] zeitgeist it happens naturally it just happens yeah yeah i mean look i i i don't my brain doesn't [14:15] register tick tock yeah mine either the same way that it does my 16 year old niece right right you [14:24] got to get a guy to do it for you i it's not just the the the the technology itself it's that i'm not [14:34] plugged in i'm not relating to yeah the cultural you know stream in the same way that somebody who [14:42] who's 20 or 25 or even 35 is but that's an interesting point is that you know human connection [14:50] you know tick tock and like when you and i did the podcast 2015 the landscape was was not as glutted [14:57] you know instagram didn't have the power it does tick tock i don't even know if it was around no not [15:02] that i and you know there was a way of of making a real connection and it seems like a lot of these [15:08] platforms now like tick tock is just an inundation of stuff that like what a like i know when i talk [15:16] to you and i can feel it and and you can hear it that there's a human connection right and it seems [15:22] like you know that's necessary yeah it's i listen i've been wrestling with this for a while you know [15:30] people talk about me being the first digital president and that's true obviously the internet [15:35] existed before me and but but you know i will when i came into office in 2009 yeah you know the smartphone [15:45] was not yet widely around um and so the smartphone comes out around 2010 facebook twitter a lot of social [15:57] media is just taking off um it seemed optimistic it did right yeah so so you know there's all this [16:04] sense of this is human connection my campaign wouldn't work i i joke about the fact that um i was an early [16:12] adapter of all this social media not because by the way i was so uh smart yeah it was that my campaign [16:22] was broke enough that i had to rely on a bunch of 20 and 25 year olds volunteering in our office yeah and [16:27] they'd say like hey uh senator um this is a website i said our website great yeah sounds good sounds good [16:36] and say so you can have pictures and you can have even video on there and see this little box like [16:41] people can can click it and and they can contribute money right and i'd be like really that's good that [16:47] well that's that seems useful and then they'd say and this one they can like volunteer and i'd be like [16:51] well that's great yeah let's do that and and so i probably i mean part of the reason i was elected [16:59] was we were adapting all these new media but you know this dates myself when i talk to audiences i [17:06] was like my social media our social media was my space yeah and meetup right now meetup is the one [17:15] that i always tell people is the most interesting to me i don't even know what it is i missed it so [17:20] meetup was you know it was a social media early yeah early early uh application and you could send [17:29] basically text over so so let's say there were a bunch of volunteers up in idaho oh yeah yeah and you [17:37] know idaho is not a big blue state with a lot of delegates so we don't have the resources to send [17:43] a whole staff right paid staff up to idaho but we have you know a few volunteers uh some people [17:50] some supporters they send us a message saying hey we're idahoans for obama yeah and uh we'd we'd love [17:59] to to build a we think you know you can win this uh state and so we go all right so we'd send [18:06] a bunch of information through meetup and we'd give them the app and basically what the app would [18:11] do is you could send out here's obama's positions on things here's you know dates of yeah yeah debates [18:19] and this and that but the main thing it did hence the name was it would help these volunteers organize [18:27] themselves to meet up in person in person yeah in a church basement in a bar right in a vfw hall whatever [18:36] and what i always tell people was wonderful about this rudimentary app was they'd show up when they [18:47] actually met in person and maybe they were assuming that they were all thought the same way and right [18:54] we're we're had the same positions on everything and they'd show up at some you know obama volunteer [19:00] meeting and you'd have a you know what looked like an ex-army sergeant with a crew cut yeah and you'd [19:07] have a black young black woman with a nose ring yeah and you'd have a suburban mom you know with some [19:15] kids and it turned out that by virtue of meeting in person you kind of realize that people are a little [19:22] more complicated sure maybe they don't agree with me on everything right maybe they're and that's a [19:28] good thing right so it creates this friction and this interest and and it it it forced people to [19:35] kind of say all right well you know it turns out that i don't have to agree with everything to to [19:40] work with somebody right and then out of out of those meetings they'd have to go out and start knocking [19:46] on doors and that's the ultimate meetup because now you're you're you're forcing yourself to talk to [19:50] strangers who definitely don't agree with you on stuff but there was that sense of human interaction [19:58] yeah in all and and that that that gave people a sense of how somebody could be a good guy but [20:06] also have blind spots somebody could be you know uh seem like a real jerk and yet there's this redeeming [20:14] quality they they they it's the same sense that you get living in a neighborhood right yeah which is [20:22] like you go to the soccer game and all the parents are sitting around and you know some guy or gal may [20:30] may not be your cup of tea but then you see him hug their kid and you go oh and you know what he's [20:36] all right he's all right well and that's foundational to democracy working correct and and what happens [20:42] now is that uh with you know us and them and with uh all these social media platforms you know being [20:50] uh individuals reality right so there's no conversation you just got people blasting away at your face all [20:57] day and and and and and the whole reeling thing the algorithm yes yes yes it does capture your mind [21:07] and send you down a very narrow track in a way that and and it's interesting for me i said like my brain [21:14] doesn't work that way right but i'll be honest with you with me it's mostly like sports videos yeah sure [21:21] but i i see how this mechanism works where you can just get on a track and that algorithm is powerful [21:31] and you will suddenly be consumed by this thing for half an hour or and you look up and you've wasted a [21:40] whole bunch of time and and but what it's also done is it has narrowed your world significantly and [21:46] and if if you get on on a political or social track on those reels um it's hard to break it'll [21:56] break your brain it'll break your brain and it's it and it's it's it's so uh terrifying and disturbing [22:02] that where you don't and also the dopamine part of it it's that people don't have necessarily whether [22:08] they do or not it'll annihilate the their sense of values it'll annihilate principles you know in a way [22:15] because it works them up by delivering this thing well it is well known i mean this has been [22:21] documented right uh you know the the design of phones the way social media apps are set up a lot of [22:30] that is science based uh that that arose out of you know figuring out how to make addiction right [22:38] figuring out how to make slot machines sure sure i mean there's a reason why all these pings and [22:43] yeah right right you know stuff comes up on your phone yeah when notifications come if you haven't [22:49] silenced it on your phone right just that sense of the only game i really play is uh uh on my my phone [22:57] is word with friends with pete susan my my old photographer from the white house sure took our picture [23:03] yeah and um and it's just a way for us to stay in touch yeah there's a very particular ping that comes [23:11] up when he's played yeah and if my if i haven't turned my phone off it does i i could be in the [23:20] middle of negotiations on a you know nuclear treaty yeah and that thing goes out there's a part of me [23:27] that's like you know what i i wonder what he played right so so all that is shaping um the political [23:38] environment in ways that even when you and i talked in in in 2015 yeah it that didn't exist and now the [23:46] interesting thing is podcasting uh-huh um is obviously it's gotten segmented and and and it's [23:57] getting chopped up so that people don't listen to a whole conversation on the video yeah on the video [24:02] and all that stuff there is still i think a power in just people listening to conversations if they listen [24:12] to the whole thing sure that i i think is different yeah i you know i i you you and rogan i guess came [24:22] up yeah started right around the same time right and it it was interesting to me when you know people [24:30] started criticizing i don't know bernie or somebody else for going on rogan right it's like well why [24:37] wouldn't you yeah of course go go if you have time to go have a conversation with somebody [24:44] you know then that is consistent with democracy to to me engaging in a honest conversation that's not [24:57] just yelling not just trying to score points but all right i'm going to take time to listen and then [25:03] i'm sure kind of share how i'm thinking about things um still valuable that that part of it is [25:09] valuable and and the fact that we can have access to that um that that we can we can in some ways [25:17] participate in that conversation i i i think is is actually not the big the the big problem but the [25:26] problem that happens with podcasts is that they get all chopped up and then it it gets put up on the [25:33] on the the video stream yeah and um the content economy yeah the one thing that we did was always keep it [25:41] audio so then we were kind of it's harder to to clip audio correct and and folk and the people that [25:47] listen to my show are in for the whole conversation and i think what you're talking about which you know [25:54] i try to kind of under understand or wrap my brain around is that there's a tribalization happening [26:01] uh in terms of even if bernie you know goes on joe you know that you know bernie is focused and he [26:07] knows what he wants to say yeah but you you know in when it's taken out of context or it's or it's [26:12] you know solely looked at by a bubble of people that the the message can become obscured right and [26:21] diminished yeah but but look there's this young state rep uh james terrico who was on there a while [26:27] back out of texas oh that guy's good right he's terrific really talented young man and and you know [26:32] uh it it does require a certain confidence in your actual convictions to debate and have a conversation [26:45] with somebody who disagrees with you on a whole bunch of stuff what makes him so good though because [26:50] there is something grounded about him that you had it too i i you know what so so in our foundation a lot [26:57] of the work that that i do is is is working with young civic leaders yeah political leaders journalists [27:06] human rights lawyers not just here in the united states but around the world and one of the first [27:11] things i say to him is uh know what you really believe right like that's your starting point right [27:22] and if you know what you first of all if if you understand your convictions you got a moral compass [27:29] you got a code you've you've spent time wrestling with what it is that you care about and what you [27:35] believe yeah then it's a lot easier now to be open and actually listen to other people uh and as [27:44] opposed to constantly trying to beat off anybody who might contradict right uh you know your your current [27:52] uh perspective and i think a guy like him uh he's his starting point is let me let me say what i believe [28:03] and and it doesn't mean that anybody in public life and and by the way anybody who's married anybody [28:09] who's in a relationship you know it doesn't mean that you you you can't practice the art of diplomacy [28:17] that you can't say it compromised in ways that are more likely to be received right um you know but [28:25] it it it i think now more than ever what people long for and and the word authenticity gets overused i [28:37] think what people long for is uh some core integrity that that seems absent just a sense that ah you know [28:49] the the the person seems to um walk the walk doesn't just talk the talk well there's a vulnerability to [28:55] that yes and there's a vulnerability to you know having that integrity and having those principles [29:02] where if you're going to do it you know straight yeah that you know you have to leave yourself open [29:11] uh to what's going to come back at you and still stand strong correct and and and sometimes it's going [29:17] to be uncomfortable and and painful yeah look and and and i and i think that that's um you know there's [29:25] been a lot of post-mortem about democrats and yeah progressives and you know i saw you know your [29:33] stand up where you said you know uh you know we somehow you know we we we figured out how to be so [29:41] annoying we annoyed the average american into fascism yeah which which cracked cracked me up because [29:50] there i wasn't as funny about saying this but even you know four or five six years ago i'd say [29:57] you know you can't just be a scold all the time you you you you can't um constantly lecture people [30:09] without acknowledging that you've got some blind spots too and the life's messy and uh you know and [30:15] and and and so the the vulnerability i think comes in and saying all right i've got some core convictions [30:22] i've got beliefs that i'm not going to compromise but i'm also not going to assert that i am so [30:34] righteous and so pure and and and and so insightful that there's not the possibility that maybe i'm wrong [30:43] on this sure or that you know other people if they don't say things exactly the way i say them or see [30:52] things exactly the way i do that somehow they're bad people and and and and and so there was this weird [30:58] what what i saw uh in and and and i think this was a fault of of some progressive language was um [31:12] almost asserting a a holier than thou superiority that's not that different from what we used to joke [31:20] about coming from you know the right the the right the moral majority and you know right with a way [31:27] and a certain fundamentalism about how to think about stuff that i think was dangerous but because [31:32] it was also a single issue yeah that if you have progressives like you you know and how you straddled [31:39] this stuff in in general with being you know constantly trolled and attacked by the right and then you [31:45] have the left who are like well he droned a lot of people and then it never goes i'd get my ass kicked [31:50] right but but it seemed like the intention on on your behalf and i noticed this is a something that [31:57] happened to me recently i was in canada yeah you know for a couple days and uh and i was talking to [32:02] somebody up there and and and i said the the best thing that that that trump has done is bring your [32:08] country together they they do seem to be uh rallying around the uh the maple leaf but but but it was it [32:17] was fundamentally like you know despite whatever differences they have and it is a parliamentary [32:23] system up there but as individuals that however they were leaning culturally right or left that when [32:30] you know the bullying started and the tariffs started and the threats started they were able to to go [32:36] down to their core beliefs of what their country meant yes and and what it what it meant to them [32:41] correct and and how they were you know going to come together and and you know rebuild from the inside [32:47] right so we don't have to deal with this but it struck me as to like you know well how how are and i [32:56] know the answer to some level how are we not capable of it how is it that most people don't understand [33:00] the civic responsibility or the civic structure of how this country is supposed to work outside of the [33:05] people that are shamelessly uh against it yeah look i i mean i think the the way i describe it america has [33:19] always had warring narratives i mean a lot of american history is is a war of ideas right and and you [33:33] know i gave a speech probably my the the speech that is closest to my heart that i gave throughout my [33:41] presidency was the speech i gave on the 50th anniversary of selma the the the march on selma [33:47] over the edmund pettus bridge and you know i talked about that clash being as important as as [33:59] gettysburg or appomattox you've got on one side john lewis and a ragtag band of you know pullman porters and [34:11] maids and clergy and a couple rabbis and college kids and they're marching from one side and on the [34:20] other side you've got um you know folks with billy clubs on horseback and fire hoses and dogs and all [34:30] that and what what john lewis represented was the narrative that says we the people means just what [34:40] it says that we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal uh and on the other [34:50] side was the fact of slavery and conquest and hierarchy and domination and if you didn't have [35:00] property you didn't vote and women weren't involved and and and that was always part of america too [35:07] right and and and and the question has always been can we pull off this experiment in which people [35:21] are showing up from all over the place they're not tied together by blood they don't necessarily [35:27] worship god in the same way or worship god at all they they they speak different languages they they [35:34] have all these weird foods they they show up with these odd customs and and and some of them [35:41] were dragged here in chains and and and and some of them had had their their land taken from them and [35:48] their culture destroyed and and out of all that can we create a a a shared creed right that allows us [36:03] to live peacefully together and get stuff done and on the other side there has always been the idea that [36:09] no no we the people means something very particular yeah at each stage and then look this [36:16] led to ultimately civil war but even after civil war you got jim crow and reconstruction yeah and the [36:22] clan and you there's always been this fight over what is the the true story of america and and i [36:33] believe deeply in this story that yeah if we can pull this off if if we can actually treat everybody [36:40] with decency and respect and compromise and make democracy work it shines a light for the entire world right [36:48] and the other path of of tribe and a zero-sum game and everything's dog eat dog and a competition and [36:57] you try to take advantage the other person because they're going to try to take advantage of you [37:01] and if they don't look like you and they don't believe what you do and they have a different faith [37:05] in you that that they're a threat to you that is the path that leads to things like world war ii [37:11] and the holocaust and uh you know slavery and and and pol pot and and and and rwanda and you know we've [37:23] we see how that plays out yeah and and so the question is you know can we can can can the better [37:32] in my mind can that can that better story win and i and i think that after world war ii you and i are [37:38] basically the same generation we grew up in a monoculture with and and as flawed as it was [37:48] you know with tv and walter cronkite and we were all watching the same things we were seeing the [37:53] same things we were listening to the same things there were groups that weren't represented there was [37:59] you know bias in it women didn't have power you know and were stereotyped in all kinds of awful ways [38:06] uh the lgbt community was just invisible and forced into the closet there was all kind of flaws to it [38:15] but it but there was a common narrative that said yeah you know we can all pledge allegiance to the flag [38:25] we can all uh you know feel that we are full-fledged you know true you know blooded americans [38:39] uh because we believe in these these certain these ideals and what you're seeing right now is a [38:48] reassertion of this idea of like nope if you don't look a certain way you don't think a certain way you [38:56] don't practice a certain faith um you know you're not a real american and i started to see this during [39:03] my that's what birtherism was about yeah yeah that's that's what when sarah palin was talking about [39:08] real americans versus right i guess the unreal americans it was that that was already boiling [39:16] over and i say all that because i think that um i think the majority the vast majority of americans i [39:26] still i think still believe in in that creed that sense of of unity that that sense of a shared narrative [39:35] but it's not reinforced a lot in the media and that's where we get back to this whole issue of social [39:41] media you don't hear that that um that sense of of what we have in common except during the super [39:52] bowl yeah and a couple other yeah maybe during the olympics a sense of unity a sense of like people [39:59] helping each other like i believe that what you're talking about you know politically in in terms of of [40:06] what we spoke about earlier that people are different some may have different beliefs but there was [40:10] a compromise that could be met and that tolerance in and of itself was is is conditional to democracy [40:17] working forbearance i think is the the formal term that political science use you have to put up with [40:22] folks that's right if they as long as they're not actively hurting you right you've got to put up with [40:28] them and and you can battle them and and ultimately it gets sorted out in politics and the the the winners [40:34] get to move their agenda forward and the losers lick their wounds and come back later yeah but there's [40:41] always that sense of yeah but but we're not going to call each other vermin right and we're not going [40:47] to try to crush you if you lose that's right but we're not going to target you but the brains have been [40:54] you know broken you know through exploiting grievance and anger and you know in talking about the left [41:00] that the fact that so many uh decided to not vote at a protest because they didn't feel that the you know [41:09] the situation in israel the ethnic cleansing of of gaza and whatnot was not going to be dealt with by [41:16] kamala or however that goes so you get this protest vote of people not willing to make a compromise for [41:22] what you used to talk about as the incremental progress yeah well and and and look that's the thing [41:27] that i spent a lot of time talking to younger leaders about this yeah and it's there's no simple [41:34] solution to it but i will say that part of what a liberal democracy requires is an acceptance [41:48] of partial victory right and not not perfection you know when i was in the white house [41:57] i'd sit around on any issue with my cabinet or my staff senior staff and we'd go around analyzing [42:04] everything and at some point i'd say all right i think i've got all the information if we do x is [42:10] this going to make things better because and i'd say i'd tell them better is good yeah we're not going [42:20] to get to perfect right if you're telling me that the affordable care act is going to ensure 50 million [42:26] people do i think that's better than if we had a if we were starting from scratch and i could get a [42:33] single-payer plan instituted and and and get that through congress and suddenly we had universal health [42:39] care and we had taken the profit motive out of do i think that would probably be a smarter way to [42:45] do it absolutely right but since i can't do that yeah i don't have the votes for that how about this [42:51] yeah we can make it better we can make it better right and and you know this um this sense that [43:04] things aren't worth it unless we get everything we want i think uh is is either a recipe for [43:17] disappointment in a democracy but also maybe in life um or it leads to this weird cynicism where you [43:28] just withdraw entirely that's that's part of what happened to uh too many of our folks uh we we i think [43:38] we were we decided all right if i'm not going to get everything then that justifies doing nothing i [43:47] it's interesting i had a conversation with malia my daughter yeah it was probably three four years ago [43:55] and she was saying to me dad you know i'm talking to a bunch of my friends and and this climate change [44:03] thing yeah you know they're just everybody just feels like it's hopeless now it looks like you know [44:09] we just keep on throwing this crud into the air people aren't listening to science [44:16] and we're going to blow through these targets that the scientists tell us you know if we don't keep [44:21] it at a two percent celsius increase you know we're going to have these catastrophes and it doesn't seem [44:29] like there's any chance for us to do it so a bunch of my friends now say you know what's the point right [44:35] like uh you know it's too late so what should i tell them and i said well you know what it's true [44:43] that we probably will blow through this target um because it's really hard for humans it's never been [44:52] done before to completely re-engineer our energy sources in one generation yeah and there's greed [44:59] and profit motives and just getting people organized and legacy systems it's it's hard but actually we're [45:05] making some progress i said you know if if we're able to stop the increase at 2.5 instead of three [45:18] it'll there'll still be a lot of disruptions and and flooding and drought and wildfires and some bad [45:26] stuff will happen but you know what that half a centigrade difference that could be the diff that [45:35] could make a difference in in a billion people's lives right totally and i and i and so i i told [45:41] her i said you tell your friends well that's worth working for yeah you know it it doesn't mean that [45:50] we won't have some really serious problems because of climate change but that's the reality but that's [45:55] the reality but you know what that half percent difference that that could be in entire coastal [46:01] villages it could be you know uh what happens in bangladesh where hundreds of thousands or millions [46:10] of people can eat instead of not eat yeah it could affect whether or not people can make a living where [46:16] they live as opposed to trying to cross the oceans to migrate to places where they can and and and all [46:21] the political conflicts that come with that that that mentality of understanding we should be doing [46:29] better than we're doing yeah we it's it's a shame that we're stuck with um this crazy you know short [46:39] sighted approach to climate but well let's let's see what we can get done that i think is the mentality [46:47] that all of us have to carry with us well i think what you were talking about about about cynicism and [46:53] disengagement is now there's a level of fear yeah that is is real right and and justified totally [47:03] so you know what happens you know in terms of what we're talking about all the things that were [47:09] that you lived through and and and we lived through whether we were kids or not the progress that was [47:14] made uh civil rights gay rights women's rights uh you know things uh policies that were meant to you know [47:23] make an attempt at uh at sort of expanding democratic ideas and you always had this core group of the other [47:31] side that have been you know trying to dismantle this from you know since the new deal but now you [47:37] know and look the the left and and and people like me you know you you throw around the words you [47:45] you know fascism in relation to authority just willy-nilly right and you you talk about authoritarianism [47:53] as if it's something that happens everywhere else and i think right now you have a lot of people who are [47:58] still locked into this like it could never happen here but at some point don't we have to wake up [48:03] and say it's happening i think there is no doubt that a lot of the norms civic habits [48:17] expectations uh institutional guardrails that we had that we took for granted for our democracy have been [48:32] weakened deliberately i don't think they're destroyed but i think they have been damaged [48:40] and it's and and they've been systematic about it i you know when i when i used to travel around the [48:48] world um you know this is back when uh democracy promotion was still bipartisan right yeah you know [48:57] george bush was for it bill clinton was for it yeah i was for it uh marco rubio apparently was for it [49:06] right so so it wasn't controversial for me to go to other countries and say you know what it it's a good [49:16] idea for militaries to be under civilian control you know yeah yeah because um when when you have [49:28] military that can direct force against their own people that is that is inherently corrupting and so [49:40] when you now start seeing the politicization of the military deliberately right they just landed in [49:49] chicago yeah that uh what when you have what what looks like a deliberate end run around not just a [50:03] concept but a law that's been around for a long time posse comitatis that says you know you don't use [50:12] our military on domestic soil unless there is a extraordinary emergency of some sort that when [50:24] when you see an administration suggests that ordinary street crime is an insurrection or or terrorist act or a [50:36] terrorist act that is a genuine effort to weaken how we have understood democracy and then that that was [50:53] understood by democrats and republicans i always try to i mean it's it's almost too easy of a thought [51:04] experiment hey if i had sent in the national guard into texas and just said you know what a lot of [51:15] problems in dallas you know a lot of crime there and uh i don't care what governor abbott says [51:23] i'm gonna kind of take over law enforcement because i think things are out of control i [51:29] it is mind-boggling to me how oh yeah fox news would have responded yeah i i mean there were times [51:37] where i remember there was there was a moment i don't remember what year this was where the military [51:45] just had regular exercises in texas yeah right out of one of the bases for it or and uh and ted cruz [51:55] and and a number of other folks were out there lending credence to the fact that i was preparing [52:03] for you know the the whole black helicopter one world government i was about to take over texas [52:09] and this is like a sitting u.s senator yeah it's like kind of retweeting about what what what what's [52:16] going on with these exercises secret ops i didn't even have any i i didn't monitor military exercises [52:22] because you know what that was the pentagon's job that was the secretary of defense and the joint chief [52:28] of staff and the co-coms that was their job to to prepare and focus on military readiness and they [52:38] made report to me the the point is that we have blown through just in the last six months a whole [52:46] range of of not not simply assumptions but rules and laws and and practices that were put in place to [53:02] ensure that uh you know nobody's above the law and that we don't use the federal government to simply [53:14] reward our friends and and punish our enemies and the same things obviously happening in the justice [53:20] department so people are right to be concerned the the interesting thing and and what i've been trying [53:30] to do when i've been speaking about this publicly is just to remind folks you know justice was true [53:38] during the mccarthy era and and and has been true throughout our history what's required in these [53:45] situations is a few folks standing up and giving courage to other folks and then more people stand [53:53] up and kind of go like yeah no that's that's not who we are that's not that's not that's not our idea [54:00] of america we we don't want masked you know folks with rifles and and machine guns patrolling our streets [54:14] yeah you know we we we want we want cops on the beat who know the neighborhood local neighborhood [54:23] and and the kids around and and that's how we keep the peace around here you know we we don't want [54:29] uh you know kangaroo courts and trumped up charges that's what happens in in other places that we used [54:36] to scold yeah for doing that you know we we want like our court system and our justice department and our [54:44] prosecutors to be and our fbi to be just playing things straight and looking at the facts and yeah [54:50] not meddling in our and in politics the way uh the way we've seen later uh lately and i think if enough [54:57] people start not not not just being in a fetal position but also not being just not worrying about [55:07] it and detached and and detached from it but but being vigilant but also saying you know what [55:13] enough yeah we can stand up to this yeah you know we can call it like we see it yeah you know [55:23] you know we need we need people who have whatever platforms they have to be able to say no that's not [55:33] who we are and to be willing to get attacked on x yeah by whoever uh for doing that and it's not easy [55:44] yeah because sometimes you fear for your life yeah and and and you know there's this whole process of [55:50] doxing and yeah you know i always used to michelle and i talk about um the fact that you know a lot of [56:02] our friends we used to call them civilians because if they got criticized you know on the comment page [56:08] about something yeah they'd be freaked out right you know what i mean we we've had so much you know [56:16] incoming uh over the course of 10 years now we chose it or at least i chose it michelle as michelle [56:21] will point out and then she was subjected to it um that that yeah we you do get a tougher skin but i [56:28] understand how it's hard when suddenly your email you know your email or your you know phone is filled [56:36] up with hostile nasty trolling garbage trolling garbage right and and you've gotten used to it too [56:43] but but but i tell you you know it's not like we're not at the stage where you have to be like [56:51] nelson mandel and be in a 10 by 12 jail cell for 27 years and break rocks yeah we're not at that point [57:01] right now there's just a little discomfort and so when i say for example if you're a law firm [57:08] you know you saying to you know we're going to represent who we want and we're going to stand up for [57:17] uh what we think is our core mission of upholding the law and maybe we'll lose some business for [57:24] that but that's what we believe that's what's needed you know if you're a university president [57:31] say well you know what this will hurt if we lose some grant money from the federal government but [57:37] that's what that's what endowments are for let's let's see if we can ride this up because what we're [57:42] not going to do is compromise our basic uh academic independence if you're a business you say you know [57:48] what you know we're we're not we're gonna we think it's important because of what this country is to [57:59] hire people from different backgrounds and and and we're not going to be bullied into saying that we [58:04] can only you know hire people or promote people based on some criteria that's been cooked up by steve miller [58:12] yeah we all have this capacity i think to to take a stand and and and ultimately this goes back to [58:25] something i said earlier about convictions you know if if if convictions don't cost anything [58:32] then they're really just kind of fashion they're not really conviction and and i do think that our [58:38] generation yours and mine mark because again we're about the same age we were so accustomed to things [58:45] kind of getting better consistently over our lifetimes less little less racist a little less sexist [58:51] less homophobic a little more generous that um it was easy i think to say well yeah i'm a i'm a progressive [59:06] but it didn't really cost us anything you know we could take positions on things that we thought were [59:15] um correct correct yeah but they were never really tested right so well here's the test [59:22] and and and and and and i think i think ultimately a lot of people will pass but i i think they haven't [59:30] realized yet no we're being tested right now i i think people and that includes young people right [59:37] like i understand there are consequences to the choices that we're making if you decide not to vote [59:47] that's a consequence if you are a hispanic man and you're you're frustrated about inflation and so [59:53] you decided you know what all that rhetoric about trump doesn't matter i'm just mad about inflation [59:59] and now you know your sons are being stopped in la because they look latino maybe incarcerated for a few [1:00:08] days and maybe yeah and uh without the ability to call anybody yeah might just be locked up well that's [1:00:15] that's your that's a test well there's a there's some clarity that's that's coming about right now that i [1:00:25] wish you know it'd be great if we weren't tested this way but you know what it's uh we probably [1:00:33] need to be shaken out of our complacency anyway yeah and it what's interesting about the test and [1:00:39] standing up and what you said the difference between fashion fashion and uh you know standing up [1:00:46] is that people if people are comfortable in their own lives and and they can convince themselves that [1:00:52] it doesn't affect them i mean that's the biggest challenge yeah and and also on the list of of you [1:01:00] know universities and uh law firms and businesses is that you know uh corporations yes are a different [1:01:09] animal in in relation to the bottom line into whatever which way the wind blows politically and that's [1:01:16] certainly with the destruction of of dei policy they're not beholden to uh to toe a democratic line [1:01:23] and that that becomes the biggest fear in terms of the certain freedoms well look i mean we saw what [1:01:30] happened with kim and and i mean the consolidation of media it's interesting we were talking about [1:01:38] there used to be sort of a monoculture yeah yeah three tv stations sure and pbs but it'll be part of [1:01:48] partly because it was coming out of world war ii and i think people had been sufficiently scared and [1:01:57] traumatized by what had happened in terms of propaganda and hitler and all this yep we set up a [1:02:04] bunch of structures that created journalistic standards and fact checking and clear lines between opinion and [1:02:14] fact and uh and and and now we've got justice media is just as concentrated but none of the rules right [1:02:25] right and it can feed some of our worst impulses and and tell each segment of people um out there [1:02:34] you know just feedback their own biases and prejudices back to them and and make money on it [1:02:41] this whole point about corporations this is something i've been thinking a lot about [1:02:45] also is that um i do think so much of what's been driving political instability everywhere is this [1:03:00] widening massive gulf in opportunity wealth income right uh within countries between countries um i mean [1:03:13] the idea that that some people now have three four hundred billion dollars on their way to a trillion [1:03:20] dollars and you've got uh you know ordinary people still trying to figure out how to eat eat and and [1:03:28] pay the rent uh in that is driving a lot of this right and and part of what i think we have to spend [1:03:42] more time thinking about is some old-fashioned values that that aren't based just on money and how much [1:03:52] you've got and material can uh you know concerns and and and i'm uh i am somebody who believes that [1:04:02] you know market-based economics is actually not only the best way to create enough stuff for everybody [1:04:10] to be okay but i also think it it's tied to freedom state-run economics generally don't work pretty uh work very well [1:04:21] but so much of our culture now so much of what we teach our kids is geared around buying stuff and having [1:04:30] stuff and posting it on instagram and then right it's it's winning to some way right what winning is now [1:04:39] defined solely by material uh goods how much you got and to some degree fame that'd be that's become [1:04:50] another currency right right and and i do think part of what our conversation needs to be more about [1:04:58] is and and it used to come out of the church or you know out of you know um the stories we told our kids [1:05:12] was this sense of oh you know what character matters honesty matters community and family and loyalty [1:05:20] and kindness matters those are the stories that that that's part of our political project right is [1:05:34] is is reaffirming that stuff i think you were asking how i navigated some of these um conflicts [1:05:46] and and i'd get attacked from the right and i'd get attacked from the left one way i did that was [1:05:52] trying to tell people what i really thought but you know the other thing was i actually had some [1:06:00] pretty old-fashioned values even if i had you know progressive or newfangled ideas yeah you know if i [1:06:10] talked about trans issues i wasn't talking to down to people and saying oh you're a bigot i'd say you [1:06:20] know what it's tough enough being a teenager let's treat all kids decently why would we want to see kids [1:06:29] bullied or shamed or shamed why would we want to do that why wouldn't we want to just you know what [1:06:35] if it was our kid yeah right and and i think spending more time talking about why those values are [1:06:47] important um not being cynical about them not being ironic about it yeah but saying no no that stuff [1:06:53] matters sure that would make a difference all right well we've got our work cut out for us yeah yeah [1:06:59] you know what i i think we're going to be okay and i think that part of the reason you had such a big [1:07:07] fan base during the 16-year run is there was a core decency to you and the conversations you had [1:07:15] maybe slightly edited by brendan yeah thankfully that that i think speaks to who we are and [1:07:27] you know we can't take this stuff for granted but my experience is most people are really decent and [1:07:36] and and and i think that's why when they hear somebody else who is that it uh it gives them [1:07:42] courage and gives them hope and and uh you should be proud of having done that well thank you mr [1:07:47] president and thank you and i'm i'm glad i made the trip you came to my house the first time i'll come [1:07:51] here and i hope to uh talk to you again we'll meet uh halfway next time okay buddy thanks man all right