Patrick Clancy's Emotional & Haunting 911 Call Played in Court — Lindsay Clancy Murder Trial

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: guys oh no basement basement she killed the kids today lindsey clancy's jury heard that 9-1-1 call that i so poorly reenacted uh transformed an ordinary day uh in court and an ordinary suburban afternoon and one of the most horrifying moments imaginable in anyone's lifetime tonight we're breaking down what those chilling minutes could mean for the trial and you've got a couple of boston insiders here who are going to give us they're going to spill the tea on kevin reddington and uh the ada the da and all that's going on inside the courtroom in plymouth massachusetts [00:00:46] Speaker 2: welcome to the global phenomenon surviving the survivor here's your host emmy award-winning [00:00:52] Speaker 1: journalist joel waldman what's up sts nation welcome to surviving the survivor this is the global phenomenon bringing you the very best guests in all of true crime we go from brockton to budapest from los angeles to lagos we cover it all we've got well over 50 countries in our community and some people say what is this guy talking about a global phenomenon what am i supposed to call the american phenomenon we've got countries all over the world i can't call it a state phenomenon we've got every state in the union represented it is a global phenomenon we cover the biggest cases and right now there is no bigger trial in america than the lindsey clancy trial you have to go back to january 24th of 2023 uh when prosecutors allege that lindsey clancy found a window of opportunity and murdered her three young children five three and eight months old uh strangling them with exercise bands but the defense here says wait a minute uh this was a woman who was given a ridiculous amount of medication a cocktail of medications that made no sense uh medication so many that they were all over the home and she was suffering from postpartum depression and even a postpartum psychosis so what is that what does that even mean we've got another amazing set of experts here to break it down and without further ado let me bring them in one by one the man who knows uh the plymouth courthouse who knows the da and the ada uh very well joe krowski he is a brockton based boston based brockton bomber he is joe krowski uh attorney and counselor at law welcome joe thank you uh next up dr sarah orak she is a columbia university trained board certified uh reproductive psychiatrist specializing in postpartum depression postpartum psychosis and women's health and has her own women's health center called mavida based in los angeles which is where my wife the coe the chief of everything is from and last but not least margaret mclean she hosts the margaret mclean show she is a former boston college professor go doug flutie you got to be a little older to understand that one uh she is an attorney and uh she is a trial attorney at one point and also a former prosecutor uh joe let me start with you we're gonna dig right in here and then we will uh dissect and talk about it all but um you know you've got both sides here the commonwealth let me just start here in your own opinion is this a prosecutorial overreach did this case have to be tried uh your friend hope he's a friend of yours kevin redington who you've known for 40 plus years seems a little perturbed that this case ever went to trial oh he certainly does and i do think [00:03:58] Speaker 3: it's a prosecutorial overreach and look i know the prosecutors prosecuting this case i know the district attorney uh in this county i have a good professional relationship with them i just philosophically disagree on how they view these types of cases this is not the first case involving maternal filicide where they prosecuted it for first degree murder and again it's jennifer sprague very experienced but in my opinion is just putting the case in as if this is a standard methodical deliberately premeditated uh murder case completely ignoring in diminishing the mental health issues that were [00:04:45] Speaker 1: impacting clearly were impacting uh the defendant in this case yeah and joe just uh kevin redington uh i thought he delivered a masterful opening statement and uh doesn't take more than a second to realize the guy at 74 years old he's you know he lives breathes and eats the law and he does it in a very sort of uh brockton style which is blue collar nothing fancy but very effective how good an attorney is kevin redington [00:05:18] Speaker 3: uh so kevin's been doing this at the highest level for as long as i can remember you know the gold standard and defense attorneys and look the prosecutor by definition is not supposed to be as emotional and as passionate as the defense attorney they're supposed to be more cold and dispassionate methodical but uh kevin as you can see has kind of a really folksy relatable sometimes bombastic style he's impromptu he's anecdotal when he's up there he ad libs and it's really a contrast in styles that you've already seen and i think you'll continue to see in this case uh thank you joe south africa's in the house hence [00:06:02] Speaker 1: forth and thusly the global phenomenon dr sarah orrick obviously has a very big brain between those ears columbia university trained um and uh still young and uh conquering the world with mavita health um how did you how did you why did you start mavita health and how did you choose this field you [00:06:22] Speaker 4: seems like you could have done whatever you wanted to do you know lindsey clancy is a great example this is a misunderstood uh psychiatric diagnosis that used to be in our diagnostic manual in the 80s and was dropped off um so this is a unique and very specific diagnosis and um you know i i think with what we're seeing likely postpartum psychosis of course i've never treated lindsey clancy personally so i don't know um but really i think um these cases and so much maternal depression and just the issues that affect women uniquely because of these changes in hormones in the postpartum is exactly why i went into this field and cases like this should never be tried in my opinion the uk australia canada 21 european countries say if there's infanticide the mother needs mental health treatment not uh criminal punishment [00:07:24] Speaker 1: could she i mean could she be treated assuming uh she goes to a psychiatric hospital and was to get [00:07:31] Speaker 4: treatment well this is the this is this is the saddest part of this case it happens in about one in one thousand births so it doesn't happen as often it's like postpartum depression which happens with one much greater frequency about one in five or one in seven women um experiences that but i have personally treated women with postpartum psychosis and if they get the proper treatment 98 of them will get better and only four percent or less of cases end in infanticide um i mean just to follow up on [00:08:03] Speaker 1: that then let's say she is sent to a psych hospital and not a prison which personally is where i think she belongs but my personal opinions don't matter but i offered them up anyway because i host a show and i don't have to follow the rules of mainstream media anymore so i'm telling you i think that uh she should be in a psych hospital and not a prison but dr sarah orack and you feel free everyone to disagree with me that's why we live uh here in america but if she goes to a psych hospital uh a year from now five years from now 10 years from now 15 years from now um can she be properly treated can she fully understand um what she did uh can she contribute to society she can she be come quote unquote mentally healthy again [00:08:49] Speaker 4: i think what's really hard in this case is that without the tragedy that occurred most of these women more than 98 go back to their baseline this is not like schizophrenia this is not like other psychotic disorders people get better and go back to their normal lives now after this tragedy i don't know how you survive that right that's more of a philosophical question but she can certainly get better from a psychiatric perspective but certainly what happened will weigh on her i mean that's a [00:09:18] Speaker 3: prison of itself frankly just to uh jump in quickly and i don't want to take margaret's turn but to your point if she is acquitted and but she's acquitted under circumstances by lack of criminal responsibility she will be sent to a state hospital in massachusetts and look it's gotten better but it still is sorely lacking and addressing the needs of the people that are housed there uh in my mind it's still too much of a state prison and not enough of a mental treatment facility um there's just a dearth of resources and there's the dearth of expertise they're doing their best but we don't have dr orick there that would treat a lindsey clancy and give her the one-on-one attention she would need so unfortunately you don't just throw money at the problem but we don't throw enough money resources time effort energy and [00:10:11] Speaker 4: understanding or empathy at the problem and not at this problem i mean from the beginning i think this is also a case of a woman without support which is so reflective of what motherhood is like in the united states not family support not the right kind of mental health support i mean i i think it's it's an extreme version of what many mothers experience today right this woman is in the midst of the worst depressive episode potentially psychosis she's still taking care of three kids cooking dinner um giving them baths i mean i have three children i can barely take care of them right now when i'm perfectly well uh without support so you know i think it's also reflective of a bigger issue [00:10:51] Speaker 1: uh i have three children and uh without my wife uh i don't know what would happen and with my wife we barely keep it together um you can blame me for getting three dogs on top of that and that has kind of put us over the edge but now that fred is in a uh belly band uh to prevent his marking maybe things will get better already here you see dr sarah orak is amazing margaret mclean you haven't gotten a comment and yet you got talking to bostonians and los angelinos and me um here's the issue i mean the the the ada is doing what she can and uh she is making the point that number one uh lindsey clancy was not on all these medications she's also taken some sort of veiled and not so veiled shots at patrick clancy himself um i don't know the extent of the amount of testimony and i know you have uh newborn grandchildren so congrats again but um i just wonder at all today oh you did so so what do you think in terms of uh the commonwealth up to this point versus kevin reddington and lindsey clancy well first of all i i agree with [00:12:04] Speaker 5: what joe said earlier kevin reddington is an a just a veteran attorney and i i'm gonna start with him i thought he handled that track that horrible 911 call that the jurors heard today we didn't unless you were in the courtroom but my understanding is you know jurors were crying lindsey clancy was shaking and there's kevin reddington and i think genuinely holding his client's hand and you know rubbing her hand at the same time i think he came comes across as a very sympathetic man and um i think his opening statement was just very well done so i'll get back to him but the prosecution she's got this case it's been assigned by tim cruise who i also agree overcharged i mean maybe voluntary or involuntary manslaughter or don't bring charges at all in this case but they have three young victims and they are on the side of the children so i do get that and i think the prosecutor today did a good job um focusing in on bringing patrick through some of the testimony like noting that she was getting much better after she got out of mclean she lindsey seemed much better and on the day of the tragedy she was having one of her best days building a snowman outside playing with the kids he also said he did not fear for the children's safety when she sent him out to pick up the medication at cvs and the takeout dinner and i also think that those two witnesses the one who was the witness from cvs pharmacy who took the phone call from lindsey clancy on the day of the uh right right before right the um tragedy she uh said hey she sounded normal to me she wasn't slurring her words she was able to um answer my questions and explain what what the mirror what kind of miralax she wanted and where it was and who would be picking it up and the same for the 3v um hostess she was she described lindsey as very you know again um seeming normal and meticulous and and you know what i i think is here is you have two different camps you have the camps where i know you you are sarah and and i may be as well because i'm very familiar with mental illness i have a friend who's gone through psycho severe psychosis so um i think some of the camp that i've heard from will say this seems like you know how could somebody be so meticulous in planning and act normal right before doing this to her children and i think also showing the exercise bands was significant today because if you use those three different bands and you tie it just like patrick patrick described um you know tie it like you're tying your shoelaces but not in the bow it takes time and effort to do this to each individual child and then what dawson was in another room and i'm thinking you know was he hiding so i i thought she did an excellent job telling the story and um setting out the room roadmap and the timeline that goes to premeditation and delivered acts yeah uh well [00:15:28] Speaker 1: said uh by margaret and dr uh sarah orak back to you um put it you know we put the cart ahead of the horse a little bit i think there are people here who are even wondering what is postpartum depression what is postpartum psychosis how are they different and how is it different than we always hear the term you know baby the baby blues yes we had page bellenbaum on last night who's a thought leader in this area um explain this i mean what is postpartum depression versus psychosis versus the blues yeah as [00:16:01] Speaker 4: quickly as possible baby blues happens in about 85 of mothers in the first two weeks and it's these fluctuating hormones that make you feel at once like oh i'm so happy about this baby and oh my god is anything going to be better again sort of what you describe is like these waves that happen after two weeks we start to see potentially postpartum depression and that's what we really think that for some women they're very sensitive to that crash in hormones that happens in the postpartum and the symptoms are mostly depression so it can be low mood sadness just not being able to function in the way that you used to what's interesting is sometimes depression can look a little ragey there can be anger irritability for some women especially cultural differences there and postpartum psychosis is a separate entity that is something where it has waxing and waning and this is what may have may describe what happened where she was very coherent at one point and then you sort of wax and wane and are having psychotic uh episode which is really a break from reality which doesn't occur in depression and baby blues people with depression and baby blues have some insight i know what's going on but with this break with reality i think hey maybe my kids are evil and i have this voice that's telling me i've got to do something to save them i mean break from reality doesn't make sense there's a description of auditory hallucinations which can sometimes also occur so and that this waxing and waning is something that we see very frequently in this diagnosis so again it's almost a lack of education in the general population about this yeah and i know you haven't treated her and i know that [00:17:35] Speaker 1: has to be sort of a disclaimer here but uh from sort of a classic textbook a textbook example of postpartum psychosis and postpartum depression does she appear to exhibit these things uh with the way [00:17:51] Speaker 4: the way she's doing this certainly i think the intractable insomnia is certainly something that we see um she was saying she was having auditory hallucinations and these thoughts i think what's hard is that a lot of women because our amygdalas grow during the pregnancy have what's called intrusive thoughts so when you're walking down the stairs you feel like you may throw your baby down the stairs and it's really very protective because what do i do i actually hold my baby stronger i make sure that i don't um kind of make a misstep but obviously she was explaining that she was having these symptoms and i know that there's a lot of talk of the medications i've seen the entire published list none except one actually two benzodiazepines can help with postpartum psychosis seroquel does as well but at very high doses and as we heard i don't think she was taking all of those medications at the same time and certainly never finished a course there was a lot of fragmentation a lot of different providers likely not talking to one another so what i also don't want to result from this is the psychiatric medications made her do it because that's not what's going on here uh interesting [00:18:59] Speaker 1: we'll come back and talk about that a little more uh joe krausby um from elise here someone has to be on the side of the children your response to that comment it's sort of chilling i mean they are dead [00:19:13] Speaker 3: um what do you say look everyone's on the side of the children right but we have a we we don't honor those children by punishing their mother for something that she was not capable of and that is the actual intentional malicious killing of a children that by all accounts she loved so much and cared for so much we punish people in this country for actions that either they intended to do or they could control and one of the problems in these cases and i've done a lot of mental health cases is the symbolism everyone has this notion that people that are mentally ill are in straight jackets in rubber rooms and they're walking around in a catatonic state they can be coherent cogent methodical plan they can turn things out in on a moment's notice things can change i've had clients at the state hospital uh in massachusetts and there's a lack of imprecision the brain is a very fragile and frail thing and science is still emerging so no one is doing this to punish the children uh this one uh miss clancy even if she is acquitted again is going to regret this and what happened and mourn those children for you know the rest of her life absolutely unequivocally how to honor the children is to do more research [00:20:38] Speaker 4: on this because we have very limited research and more resources right she was begging to be admitted and wouldn't be right was calling hotlines and hey i need help um i think we really failed her right the state of massachusetts the providers um you know the united states is there anything uh doctor that [00:20:59] Speaker 1: triggers this in some women but not in others is there research about that yeah there is some research [00:21:05] Speaker 4: so certainly if there's a family history of psychosis can sometimes be the case i think with her there was already a history of of postpartum depression and very significant symptoms after the birth of her two older children which we know actually get worse after each postpartum period so she was already a very vulnerable um because she had symptoms before and it doesn't sound like she had really good wrap-around care she was going and getting prescriptions every couple of days because i think she was just so [00:21:37] Speaker 3: overwhelmed yeah um go ahead joe yeah pop in to that point you know what this case has that a lot don't i'm talking about in the criminal side of things is there's actual contemporaneous records right of her reaching out and expressing the homicidal homicidal and suicidal ideation prior to this event happening notwithstanding that my review of the records one of her uh mental health appointments was a 17-minute telehealth appointment is my information imagine that drive-by telehealth for someone that's in the throes of postpartum depression so this is really a referendum on you know the local government the district attorney's office uh you know the the mental health community everyone [00:22:27] Speaker 1: uh shout out to maui swift that she's been uh she's in the comment section has been here since day one here's the uh hotline number one eight three one eight three three tlc mama one eight three three tlc mama if anyone out there is having any issues uh you know either about to give birth or has just given birth um margaret i'm just curious so this is day two now of patrick clancy on uh the witness stand we didn't know there was going to be a cross uh but after his morning testimony there was cross today um in your opinion what has been the commonwealth's objective with him uh being on the stand over the [00:23:08] Speaker 5: last two days what's been the purpose of talking to him well the prosecution is trying to demonstrate through patrick that lindsey's behavior leading up to the crimes was rational and lucid right they have to show that she was saying beyond a reasonable doubt that's the burden here so for example what i went through before that what she tried to bring out was um hey she seemed like she was having a good day she were you worried what bothered me though was what were those um thoughts that she was having uh she was having these horrible thoughts and and they didn't really get into that she did worry about harming her her kids so um that goes to the defense rather than the prosecution in my opinion but again i think by calling those two witnesses to the stand cvs and 3v restaurant those two women just um for some people that don't understand the complexities of mental illness who don't understand what sarah is telling us about and joe they they really can't they can't see how anybody even even if somebody has mental problems mental issues they can't understand how anybody could could actually kill their kids with exercise bans so again the prosecution is trying to show a deliberate methodical of three crimes were committed deliberately methodical with the exercise bans and again they're showing this planning this 20 minute time frame and then she tried to take her own life so they they i agree i think it was overcharged and i think it will come down to the battle of the experts right because kevin reddington's going to have to produce a an expert like sarah who's going to have to explain that yes people can suddenly seem lucid like she did earlier in the day but then all of a sudden just lose it and hearing voices this is your one chance take it it's your one window of opportunity and so she went and and you know did what she did to those children i can't even say it it's just so so horrific but that's uh i think she's doing as best she can with the evidence that that she has and some people will buy into it yeah by the way i've seen quite a few comments saying [00:25:27] Speaker 1: that just watching the trial is triggering a lot of people who have and look if we're being honest just about everyone's got some mental health issues there's no such thing as normal in this world i think that's a myth and i think it's triggering a lot of people to say you know maybe i'm a little nutty maybe this is making me worse i mean everyone's got to just take care uh with a case like this and this is such an unusual trial typically people pile on the defendant uh that's typically what happens and it's one side versus the other and here um it seems like people are incredibly conflicted and including uh yours truly here but kelly mcclellan back to dr sarah here um i had from kelly i had a suicidal teenager and was told a one-year wait list i'm not even sure what an iop program is the system intensive outpatient program okay intensive outpatient i mean this is a real problem i don't want to draw myself into this i just went to the er a few weeks back for a very minor health scare and it was just a debacle it was just i i i was i was almost embarrassed uh i won't say it to be you know what in this country uh at that point um how screwed up it was to just go and see a doctor and the amount of calls i had to get on after the fact and that's just i mean for a guy that's in pretty good health just going for you know make sure everything was okay i cannot imagine what it's like for kelly mcclellan or what it was like for lindsey clancy i mean how does the system get fixed when it does appear to be unbelievably broken in so many ways no that's an impossible question we've tried to answer it at [00:27:10] Speaker 4: movita health you know health mental health should be covered by your insurance you know you pay premiums why pay out of pocket for these services that's one and then weightless we see patients within two days if we can we wrap around care we've seen women that have stepped down from inpatient units after postpartum psychosis and we're able to wrap around them we see them three four times a week we have we have a family that's on you know the last case we saw the parents the parents-in-law agreed to stay in the house at all times with the with our patient and the baby the husband could still go to work but these are that's the type of environment that you need unfortunately hospital stays the insurance says she's got to get out and i suspect because she's a nurse she's white she's privileged she sort of can function she appears that she can kind of probably look pretty good and pretty healthy and have these waxing and waning moments you know i think someone that's so recently been discharged from an inpatient hospital to be left sort of on her own taking care of the kids i we just need so much more so yeah the the mental health system is broken but also our care system in the united states is broken child care is so unaffordable that she probably couldn't even afford a nanny to help her out [00:28:24] Speaker 1: yeah uh they had a babysitter uh he said they were doing okay but i don't know that that was enough and joe i'm coming to you um but um i had another question for sarah which was on the tip of my tongue and i just forgot it so i'm gonna go back to joe right now and it'll come to me i know it will um joe during opening statements kevin reddington you know got pretty uh passionate and turned to the da who i'm unfamiliar with and said he would kill the soul of this young woman that's why i knew this guy was from brockton um kind of beautifully stated uh he is really i think deeply uh upset that this is even being prosecuted just a look that he is uh is giving uh to to the uh da and the looks that he is giving uh in court i mean you know him how personally do you think he's taking [00:29:16] Speaker 3: all of this so the frontline prosecutors right attorneys buckingham and sprague are the ones prosecuting the case but i think he was referring to tim cruise the district attorney that was actually in the courthouse watching the case look those two go way way back and i don't think ada excuse me da crews will take it personally but i think it was an authentic visceral reaction that kevin had uh and he got caught up in the moment and certainly you know those openings were not necessarily technical there was a lot of emotion and a lot of argument put into them uh by both sides but i think he's wearing his heart on his sleeve and i think uh that plays well with the jury uh i think that he genuinely sincerely believes that his client is a victim in all of this too and is being re-victimized by having to endure this prosecution i mean this has to be to the extent that she already was mentally ill can you imagine what this trial is doing to her and one of the things again and this is not a personal shot i've had many cases with these prosecutors and i find them to have integrity and skill but one of the things again that i would criticize is it's too dismissive dismissive of the suicide attempt dismissive of the symptoms she was showing you know someone isn't necessarily going to scream from the top of the mountaintop that i'm about to kill my kids or i'm talking to dead people or things like that but i think that's what makes clancy so authentic that she wasn't exaggerating any of the symptoms this was real life documented uh throws of mental health symptoms that she was [00:31:01] Speaker 1: experiencing uh i i agree i agree with you a hundred percent and uh dr orrick i remember the question i was going to ask you you know when when the 911 call we're going to get to that in a second was played in court today we didn't hear it but we have a transcript and we'll go through some graphics on that um she appeared to be sobbing with her head in her hands uh really weeping and my question is if you people who go through this this is now two three years later if you were to talk to her today and have a conversation with her today is in your opinion is she totally out of this sort of psychotic state is she fully aware of what she did and uh we talked about this earlier but i mean that has got to be punishment enough i'm not sure how she 100 yeah well you know a lot of people who [00:31:51] Speaker 4: survive these psychotic experiences and go back to their baseline which at this point it's been so many years that it's likely that she did if she did have postpartum psychosis there is also the possibility that she had a bipolar disorder and maybe this was mania right there's a lot of different um kind of diagnostic uh options here though postpartum psychosis is likely the the one but people describe almost some dissociation not totally remembering it's kind of what our brain does when we experience trauma is we forget some things ask anyone who's had a traumatic incident they sometimes have a patchy memory of it have a hard time sort of remembering the fine details but generally it sounds to me like she is someone who has insight into what occurred even though it might not be crystal clear because she [00:32:36] Speaker 1: was in this waxing and waning state yeah um margaret one question i'm going to start to play some sound and look at these graphics but this issue you know it's it's she's either guilty or she's not criminally responsible um yeah how does the defense um i mean the the state has all the burden but how does the defense prove here that she's not criminally responsible uh have they done it yet i mean how do we know when we [00:33:05] Speaker 5: get there well i think that uh reddington has done an excellent job through cross-examination today showing that she was through patrick clancy that i mean he even i thought on cross what stuck out to me was patrick at one point described lindsay as rocking back and forth on the sofa and um like she had a bad reaction to seroquel she was very sleep deprived uh benzos made it worse so then she tried valium she wanted to get on a a medication that would help her so she was legitimately trying to get better yet she was getting worse so i think that will play into what he the you know his theory of the case which he laid out very well through through opening statements um will ultimately you'll need some experts to go along with it and to explain what does sleep deprivation mean i mean as sarah can explain sleep deprivation can lead to psychosis alone right yeah yeah and um that's what really stood out to me was how much she just could not she couldn't sleep and she was trying everything to get just to be able to sleep and i think that ultimately that she and the hearing the voices so i there is a burden shifting by the way that goes on here so in massachusetts when she first goes to court she's presumed saying but as soon as kevin reddington starts producing some evidence to the contrary the burden shifts entirely to the commonwealth to prove beyond a reasonable doubt hurt that she was saying at the time these acts occurred so and he you know he's just we're still in the prosecution's case in chief so as time goes on and it's when it's the his turn his case in chief the i think the expert testimony will be doing uh what sarah is explaining to us is what is sleep deprivation can that puts waxing and waning is a big thing and i think when you mention that sarah i think people don't get the concept of what waxing and waning is because they see she seemed lucid and rational on the day the crimes were committed right before they were committed but that so that shows you've got to show waxing and waning it's quite similar if you've ever [00:35:22] Speaker 4: seen anyone with delirium or they're in the icu or hospitalized that all of a sudden they're like doing well and then all of a sudden orange it's very similar in that way yeah uh definitely you know [00:35:34] Speaker 1: joe krowski what about jennifer sprague and her um direct exam of patrick clancy i mean here's a guy who lost his three children in the worst imaginable way and loses his wife somehow i don't know how but this guy got it together enough to get himself remarried and instead of people being happy for him they're criticizing him for not sticking with his wife through this um to me this guy is unbelievably resilient and here she is she's kind of at times she's pointing the finger of blame toward him as well saying you know essentially you didn't do enough why didn't you ring more alarm bells and this guy is being so re-traumatized uh that at one point today um tim jansen whom to get to in a minute who was reporting for us uh thought that he was having a panic attack and emts and ems rush into the court house we don't know for sure that it was for him uh and lindsey was having a really hard time as well but how careful does she have to be uh with i mean the witness is off the stand now but in [00:36:41] Speaker 3: directing you know questioning him she has to be really careful uh again and one of the criticisms i would have is that there's kind of a lack of empathy or sympathy that i'm getting that she has towards patrick clancy one of the things that makes him such an incredibly credible witness on behalf of the defendant is first of all jennifer spray called him because she has to right we've got to remember she still has to prove the murder before we even get into the mental health part of it she has to prove all of the elements of first degree murder that it was a deliberately premeditated unlawful killing with malice so she has to put him in and he's really the only percipient front row witness to everything that transpired kevin was able to make it his witness right on cross-examination to pull out and extract uh exactly the type of mother that lindsey clancy was but he's credible because he went off and got married this is a woman that took the life of his three children and he's back there and i think that it's fairly obvious he's back there to support her and what does that say to me that he knows the real lindsey clancy he knows the lindsey clancy that he married that gave birth to those three children would have fought and would have given her own life for those three children he knows that in that brief moment of time that wasn't lindsey clancy that killed those three children that was a shell of herself again that was suffering from a serious serious mental disease or defect yeah i talked about this [00:38:23] Speaker 1: during the trial today it's such a small world my wife got a message from a friend i don't even know all the details because i haven't been home yet but long story short this friend knows lindsey clancy so well that she was in her wedding party uh and said she could have been any one of us uh was an unbelievable mother um and uh this person a hundred percent uh is convinced that this is a psychotic episode because she knew her prior to all this and uh was by all accounts an amazing mother uh i'm trying to get more information and hopefully get them uh on sts if they want to come on but you see [00:38:59] Speaker 3: i'll go ahead uh just one point to that right if patrick had gotten on there and talked about you know she was a negligent mother she was a physically abusive mother if those were the type of anecdotes we were hearing she'd be in some serious trouble right now but she wasn't she was a great mother she did with the resources and the faculty she had she did everything she could but in my mind the mental illness at the 11th hour it it won and she couldn't and i think part of what the [00:39:31] Speaker 4: audience in public is sort of reacting to and again not understanding the full extent of their relationship his participation in the child rearing and kind of chores at home etc but i think it's reflective of the huge load on women around child rearing taking care of the house cooking cleaning and what sounds like a traditional relationship that they had in the midst of a psychotic episode and frankly i think you know she needed more support that she did not have yeah um look it was like uh [00:40:04] Speaker 1: i don't know one in the morning last night and we're done with the show we're done with uh trial coverage and uh the coe is literally like organizing things in the bathroom after taking the three kids to soccer or practice and dance and summer camp and uh it is it's a disproportionate um amount of work that the women do compared to the men the men complain i complain a lot more so i'm a lot better at that and whining about it but um and i'm not saying this for brownie coe's not even listening right now she's at soccer but i really don't know um as a father of three relatively young children 12 10 and seven um just in a normal and quote unquote normal and it's anything right right not having a mood episode [00:40:57] Speaker 4: not not being ill in this way where you're seeking treatment like every day some of the like meetings she had with prescribers was like you know three days in a row i mean this this [00:41:06] Speaker 1: reeks of desperation yeah i mean i was i was just gonna say it's difficult enough under perfect circumstances and then you do this and patrick clancy god bless him he just he said he never even [00:41:18] Speaker 4: knew what psychosis was told this that's part of the problem the couple should be educated together and he should have been at every appointment he should have information about hey let's not leave lindsay alone for a period of like six months until she's sleeping until she's feeling better [00:41:36] Speaker 1: yeah that was gonna be my question you know not the onus but i mean husbands you know it seemed it's it seems like he was overwhelmed he didn't know what to do essentially you know he he was he was being supportive in the way that he knew to be supportive but right um what and i'll just read this comics i think this is interesting and we'll circle back real quick in the deepest depressions of my life thank you for sharing this danny causey uh no one would ever have known i learned to adapt to be able to work socialize it's i mean people really are good at hiding what's women especially are great at masking yeah um so i mean that but also just going back to the husband issue i think this guy was trying to be a supportive husband and maybe didn't know how to do that and i don't think supportive in the [00:42:23] Speaker 4: way hey lindsay how can i help you yeah right still burdening her with how he can be helpful which is what i think what a lot of fathers do instead of just like go and be helpful initiate work right initiate child care initiate taking the kids to camp [00:42:41] Speaker 1: i try to do some of that joe krowski i take my kid to soccer i do the uber but do you ask your wife if you should take them to soccer probably okay i'll get your number we'll get on a tax uh a test and i will i will clear everything with dr warwick before i move forward now um a little bit of sts news and tim was going to come on but he said look i don't want to be the the newsier show and he also had a dinner with an elderly family member who eats prior to five but tim was asked to leave court today tim is an attorney and a uh former federal prosecutor and he had absolutely no idea of the courtroom rules uh because he operates out of tallahassee and in florida things are a little more footloose and fancy free but apparently in the commonwealth uh tim was had a camera on in the hallway which is a no-no and so he was asked to to leave um and he wasn't going to go back to report anyway because he has obligations but um i don't know that he's able to i haven't talked to tim yet um but he did want to say because a lot and i'm gonna play a clip of his uh this is after the 911 call but tim was looking over his shoulder and i even asked him about that and it's because they kept getting these indications that court was going back into session so he was looking around to see if he had to go back into court it was a bit of uh you know a mini disaster tim felt really bad about it tim's a great friend of mine very good attorney uh this is him coming out and speaking to us about this 911 call and his reaction to it let's uh watch it together let me let me say something that 911 call [00:44:22] Speaker 6: was the most dramatic riveting there were journalists coming out of the courtroom in tears after hearing the 911 call the husband patrick was great trying to save lindsay give medical care and he was doing the best he could and he was talking to 911 he was trying to help her try to keep her awake and all of a sudden the paramedics show up you can hear the ambulance and then all of a sudden he he goes in the house and then you hear screaming uncontrollable screaming the man had just seen his kids with bands around him he yelled she killed my kids i'm gonna hold it right there uh joe krowski this [00:45:10] Speaker 1: was the big moment in court today uh the commonwealth playing it uh the judge ruled that it would be suppressed from the public tim had a chance to hear because he was inside the courtroom what does this do for the commonwealth um you know he is devastated uh to me this doesn't show any sort of culpability to you know from anyone other than what we've been talking about which is she was not in her right mind i'll go through the transcript in a minute but uh your thoughts on this 911 call [00:45:42] Speaker 3: right so that came in and the commonwealth was the moving party to have that 911 tape admitted into evidence under the spontaneous utterance exception and judge sullivan allowed it i don't know whether or not it was over objection but i think really helpful to the defense because you know clancy's probably processed this thing and he probably still does every day but he has a a certain cool demeanor and almost a flat effect now that doesn't mean that he's not mourning the loss of his kids every single day but this was a really dynamic contrast real time contemporaneous to what he was seeing in that tragedy and i think if i'm a juror i have to be sitting there saying you know this whole couple went through this and this is not some planned out evil malicious uh murder case so i agree with the sentiment in the con the context of your question i think it was probably much more helpful if it was designed to engender sympathy i think it did so for the defendant not for the prosecution [00:46:50] Speaker 4: even his flatness right now patrick's is not that unique right he has gone through unspeakable trauma and that flattened some people's or that he's trying to dissociate from this because how can you survive this right that's what we have to ask each other this testimony that is hard for any human being to get [00:47:09] Speaker 1: through and survive yeah 100 um margaret i'm going to play the rest of this out you know tim has two daughters and he was really emotional here listening to it let me let me play out the rest and then we'll [00:47:21] Speaker 6: get your take on it to the 911 the 911 caller was like oh my god oh my god it was so traumatic that the judge immediately called a recess he gave a curative instruction before he played it i think he knew how emotional how emotional it was going to be it was as emotional and traumatic as i've ever seen in a courtroom in 41 years um the poor man had to relive this testifying again today and thankfully they didn't play the 9-1-1 while he was still in the courtroom they removed him um they introduced some bands and some clothing but thankfully they didn't make him listen to it and relive that 9-1-1 call it was absolutely devastating traumatic um and i think everybody in the courtroom will never forget what they just heard [00:48:19] Speaker 1: uh thanks to tim and he had a rough day and he took it personally uh tim is not a member of the media uh traditional in the traditional sense he had no idea and to be honest uh this is not uh just going back to the hallway stuff that's something that i you know they either have to have signage up or let people know um on a daily basis because they're going to be people especially in new media that are not aware of that but even i mean in florida you can do that so um poor tim felt awful about the whole uh situation but he's a great guy and very well intentioned but margaret um just what i asked joe i don't see how this call helps the commonwealth in in any way uh at this point and and i understand look there's this mentality of like an eye for an eye a tooth for the tooth justice for children and they're probably going to be people on that jury who say i don't care you know how psychotic this woman was she killed her own kids um she's going to prison i'm gonna i'm gonna convict this woman and that's why tim jansen by the way said he believes there's going to be a hung jury so let me start there is there a possibility of a hung jury here margaret your thoughts on the 9-1-1 call [00:49:35] Speaker 5: yeah i think so and i have to say i'm i'm with joe and sarah here because i've seen someone in severe mania and uh i so i have a special understanding of mental illness but i can't tell you how many so i'm from plymouth county right it's my own county and i can't these are my peers the jurors so i can't tell you how many people in plymouth county are completely divided and i'm talking about some people who who are very familiar with mental health and they're saying you know i i'd have to convict her i'd have to convict her it seems almost almost like it's 50 50 here believe it or not and i i i really sympathize i truly do and i do think that i don't know that 9-1-1 call can go either way because you can have parents that could put themselves themselves in patrick clancy's shoes and say this is the worst this would be the worst day of my life i wouldn't want to live after that right so they may want justice for those three innocent children and see they're looking at the little pajamas with the robe that we saw today so they may be on the side of the prosecution here like i said it's very divided and by the way i wanted to make a point earlier joel you mentioned you got a text about lindsey clancy somebody who knew her well one of my best friends worked with her at mass general hospital in the labor delivery unit and so um they uh so the unit that her co-workers are um telling a telling a story about her that she was a loving they're devastated they can't even watch this trial so i'm kind of letting them know what's going on but they are um they paint her as a lovely a lovely woman a great mother um she was a very dedicated woman at the labor as a labor and delivery nurse and i think that's uh exactly what patrick said about her she i mean she didn't you know she did all these activities with the kids she took them through the marigold round and hall you know that's where i took my kids so it's not like she you know there wasn't any underlying like she wasn't having an affair or you know there wasn't anything it just there's no motive no motivation you know yeah so the only reasonable explanation and is she had a uh clear break from reality here so i'm in your camp uh but uh there's uh i don't i don't care [00:52:03] Speaker 1: but i will tell you i will get we will all get some hate mail today uh but that's fine that's fine and that's just the nature that's the way the world is a divisive place dr sarah sarah we talked about the husband what her parents are in court what about the parents you know i don't care if you're i'm still my mother's uh little boy and i'm in my 50s you're always your parents children um they must feel absolutely awful and helpless uh what about the parent parental perspective here listen there can be [00:52:34] Speaker 4: heartbreak and devastation at not having your grandchildren but also love and care for the daughter that's suffering and struggling and will suffer for the rest of her life let's be clear wherever lindsay ends up she'll need prison to be in a prison of right her own making with what occurred and frankly what we allowed to occur um as a community as you know with the health system that we have so i i really do feel for them and understand how they're trying to do the best to try to provide any [00:53:04] Speaker 1: quality of life for this woman yeah i'm gonna get to the um full screens here of the of the 9-1-1 call and i'll read it for those who are listening but joe um another thing uh that was interesting dynamic wise is the commonwealth never said to patrick clancy hey if you need a break we'll get you a break but the minute kevin reddington got up there he said if this is too tough we'll take a break now interestingly he's also gonna uh be a witness for the defense um he really didn't challenge patrick clancy in any way shape or form he was just kind of asking questions it's got to be a weird position for kevin reddington to be in uh how do you think he handled that oh i think he handled it exceptionally [00:53:47] Speaker 3: well i think his direct quote was if i was if i push too hard again letting the jury know that that kevin fails the emotion of this and he's personally invested in this this is a you know fight for his client's life and the reason i think he reserved on some of the questions is he hasn't technically raised the mental health defense right in massachusetts it can be put in through cross-examination it can be put in in your own case in chief with experts but certainly in his opening make no mistake about it it's an ngi defense he's essentially conceded that she committed the axe what i think he wants to do though is patrick clancy is such a valuable witness hold some of it right hold some of it back get those experts to testify the dr oryx of the world to lay the foundation of what the mental illness looks like and then call patrick back to kind of fill in those blanks and the anecdotes the things that he was actually uh saw her experiencing and line them up with the expert testimony well i [00:54:55] Speaker 4: think there's more to come another piece that i thought would be interesting to talk about is i think now that they're both filing civil lawsuits patrick and lindsey right against the health care providers [00:55:05] Speaker 3: and what that will sort of throw into the mix yeah that's going that's going to be explosive because you've got to imagine that he's not just going to subpoena and call uh experts that he's hired he's going to call the treatment providers these people that you know have been heavily criticized for the contraindicated and over medications for the short visits for not probably heating the the warning signs that were all there and some of them are being sued so i would imagine they're going to be quite defensive witnesses when uh attorney reddington calls them unless attorney sprague calls them in her case in chief that i guess that's to be decided yeah uh this is uh you know just the more i think [00:55:50] Speaker 1: about it how uh dynamic and and interesting a kid nancy grace would yell at me for this because she doesn't like fascinating our interest joel these are real victims these kids do you think they would say fascinating but you get what i'm saying here um dr orrick before i get to these full screens on the 911 call which we have to get to um one of the things we talked about and sort of the case part of the case a big part of the case that the commonwealth is building is the day the murder she was fine she's building snowmen she's texting her husband she was totally coherent with the cvs manager who took the stance today she's totally coherent with the hostess at the restaurant where she ordered food she's not slurring her words can you just talk about sort of moving in and out of psychosis and what we talked talked about earlier which is women being so good at masking things i mean what does it tell you about her state of mind that day that she wasn't slurring probably not a lot right not a lot at [00:56:48] Speaker 4: all because we see this we see this clarity and and coherence and then all of a sudden slip into these very bizarre thoughts kind of divorced from reality and frankly again i don't know i i just want to make sure that these are the facts but like i did read something about her entering a 5k race and completing it potentially a couple of months postpartum this woman seems to be one that pushes herself to extremes maybe she asks a lot about herself she sort of like does it right she tries to function as hard as she can and yet is breaking right it's not enough so i suspect that there may be some a-type qualities where she can appear really great and actually be falling apart yeah she was a high [00:57:34] Speaker 1: school and collegiate athlete she was a collegiate cheerleader uh you know in great shape and he's a runner and an athlete and she did run a 5k now uh this is slide one with the 9-1-1 call i'm gonna read it since there are a lot of people who listen to the show but 10 20 uh a.m here uh explain how i'm not sure the time here but explain how she tried to commit suicide where is she now stay awake how old is she 31 to 33 is she awake yes is she breathing yeah lindsey what did you do to your neck she's talking patrick clancy says um on to slide two uh when last half hour how far did she fall she fell straight down um 20 feet multiple voices going on is she responding normally um someone says a little bit uh this could be uh i guess an emt worker patrick clancy wake up what part of the body was injured the neck someone says patrick clancy says she's breathing lindsey look at me look at me uh and it gets more and more dramatic 9-1-1 are there weapons uh whoever this worker is i don't see any then patrick clancy where are the kids with multiple voices speaking 9-1-1 saying do not move her patrick clancy's saying open your eyes can someone okay lindsey look at me open your eyes 9-1-1 i'm going to tell you how to stop the bleeding she had cut herself on the neck and wrists uh the person who's there says it's not bleeding they're open wound she's in the backyard is there something on her neck a knife or something can you put pressure on it no uh multiple voices and then lindsey wake up she's moaning and patrick clancy's begging whether to wake up and we go here to 9-1-1 telling him put pressure on the cut patrick clancy says lindsey look at me say my name she's conscious don't move her tell her to be still i'm gonna stay on the line with you is there a fence right here right here i need you to stay and go uh check on my kids hello footsteps guys guys oh no yelling screaming oh my god hello what's going on patrick clancy the basement the basement oh my god hello hello screaming screaming ah she killed the kids she killed the kids oh my god oh what is he screaming about the 9-1-1 operator asks uh patrick clancy crying screaming gasping oh my god screaming screaming screaming hello what's going on from 9 uh one one joe krowski we're not there we're not listening to but i got goosebumps i mean this is a guy who in real time on a 9-1-1 call says my wife she killed the kids uh there's no worse circumstance imaginable but i go back to my first question why is this being prosecuted this call makes me ask that [01:00:26] Speaker 3: question again yeah i know that that call should make you question that again and it it's fairly unique for a judge to excuse a witness uh to not have to listen to that and think of the import of that it's the imprimatur of the court the court is the same even though he's not supposed to uh share an opinion and the jury's not supposed to draw any conclusions from anything the judge does that he has an opinion one way or another but think of the message that sends the judge knew it was so hurtful and harmful and painful for patrick that he allowed him to be excused to not have to to listen to that because typically uh when you're doing a trial the witness that made the 9-1-1 call if they're testifying the 9-1-1 call is played while they're sitting there in the witness stand because they're the ones that lay the the foundation for it so it to me has a much more punishing effect [01:01:23] Speaker 1: than probative effect in this trial yeah um just an unbelievable um 9-1-1 call that we didn't hear but the transcript i mean i'm just curious um dr orrick from your perspective just through your lens uh as a [01:01:40] Speaker 4: medical doctor what do you make of that exchange just absolutely horrifying discovery even i mean this woman was attempting suicide very clearly um just to think about this being tried in this way is just um you know especially when patrick doesn't want you know he doesn't want her to be tried in this way um just feels like a betrayal frankly of this family of the children um and of what's really going on here which is perpetuating stigma against real mental health issues especially [01:02:14] Speaker 1: those that affect mothers in this country yeah this is heavy stuff i mean margaret uh to you you know emotion is not really supposed to become evidence but if it's ever going to happen it's going to be with this with this 9-1-1 call i mean how does the emotion of the 9-1-1 call factor in to the i mean this is going to certainly be something i would imagine that the jurors and it's by the way it's 12 women six men 12 of who will be selected six who are alternates but don't know that they are alternates but when they go into jury deliberations i would imagine they're going to ask to hear this call again what is the emotion of it due to the potential outcome of the case [01:02:56] Speaker 5: uh i wonder if they'll want to hear it again i mean they're never going to forget it but i think it's it's just i i that's why i think it's going to be a no matter who the 12 are right and it'll be really interesting to see what the the women versus men dynamic ultimately is because i'm wondering if there's going to be if women are going to be more pro lindsay clancy i i don't know um i was thinking about that but either way i think based i i'm also thinking that based on that 9-1-1 call and all the emotion and the children and those photographs of the children there are going to be jurors that are staunchly on the side of the children here and they will they will just listen they listen to that and they may not change their minds based on the expert testimony it's really it's really hard to say here again and i think like joe made the point and i i agree with him where reddington has to put on some excellent uh expert witnesses and then possibly bring clancy back on the stand i really agree with that and i also think it's interesting too i hadn't thought about the fact that some of the experts who the um commonwealth is they've got to call experts too so they will probably call some of the providers and who may test testify against lindsay clancy because of the civil lawsuit i thought the timing of the civil lawsuit was interesting uh i read it i read the entire civil lawsuit you know several whenever whenever when it came out and i was thinking wow i i thought it was um that made me really be on her side looking at all the medications and all the times she sought treatment so uh but i think you still have people that are going to be on the side of those three [01:04:53] Speaker 1: children yeah a couple more questions and we'll get final thoughts in just a moment it's been a it's been a day and a half already but joe krowski to margaret's point i've asked this uh 18 jurors uh 12 women six men who in your opinion are going to be more compassionate toward lindsay clancy in [01:05:11] Speaker 3: this case the women or the men you know i thought about that and that's a question that's been asked a lot and i don't know if it's going to fall down along those lines of gender you know i think that what you want are jurors that answered those extensive questionnaires honestly and truthfully and if they follow the law after they hear the experts and if they're going to be uh it's going to be emphasized that it's not up to lindsay clancy to prove to them that she was not criminally responsible the government has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was criminally responsible that one she knew she appreciated the wrongfulness of her conduct but two even if she did she could help it she could stop herself i think that second prong is going to be really difficult for the government to overcome again gender i don't know i think probably a a woman can more relate to a a female and what they go through i defer to the doctor on that this has been an eye-opener for me and there's a couple of other cases and one that was right in that courthouse where an african-american woman from brockton was convicted under similar circumstances but you know she was from brockton didn't have the wealth didn't live amongst the beautiful people she was called evil in the closing argument by the prosecutor and she was going through it too men i think sometimes we don't appreciate that postpartum and psychosis and things that females are going through don't manifest themselves and don't display themselves like we would expect them to and the the struggle is real and i think if reddington can educate the jury on that and his experts can educate the jury on that uh that she's going to prevail [01:07:04] Speaker 1: um margaret what about this is an interesting question and i have no idea because i'm not a lawyer could the judge issue a directed verdict uh there's something that feels i don't know there's to me there's something that feels a little off with this whole thing uh is there a possibility that a judge in this case steps in and says i'm taking the reins this is what what's going to happen i don't [01:07:25] Speaker 5: see that happening here i think that commonwealth has produced just enough evidence you know through lindsey or through patrick clancy of premeditation i can't see this being a directed verdict here um because i think we have to wait for the defense to put on the experts to explain the postpartum psychosis part of this this whole case so i think we'd be much very premature of the judge to do that [01:07:53] Speaker 3: and one thing on that the standard in massachusetts like most jurisdictions is they the judge has to view the evidence in the light most favorable to the commonwealth he doesn't lay in on credibility and make those assessments i i this is a very careful methodical judge i've been in front of him too many times to count there is no way that he's going to take this case from the jury they're going to [01:08:16] Speaker 1: decide uh innocence or guilt in this case wow yeah i agree yeah you just heard from uh joe krowski and margaret both uh you heard margaret's uh home county is plymouth county and joe has been around um a long time um joe is it going to come down to uh dueling experts here whoever has the best uh expert is going [01:08:37] Speaker 3: to win this case i think because this is such a it is so heavily based on the science and the psychiatry so i i really do think that this is going to come down to the experts i would agree and i think [01:08:55] Speaker 4: ultimately the jurors is who has the highest health literacy and least stigma around mental health is probably how it's going to shift and how it's going to end up i don't think it'll be gender lines it'll be like who can really integrate that knowledge um and push aside some of the you know initial judgment that i think some people have without that information i did see on his witness list he has [01:09:18] Speaker 3: dr resnick and dr orrick can correct me if i'm wrong but my information and i talked to him once he's one of the original real pioneers that kind of created a subspecialty of paternal infanticide and that's right yep this is dr resnick sarah resnick i think he's out and say in cleveland right i believe so in cleveland he he is you know the go-to i think he's actually retired now but is [01:09:46] Speaker 4: doing this case well it's what's interesting i went to columbia there's definitely um spinelli dr spinelli is one of the originals also kind of um advocating for postpartum psychosis to be in our dsm which is sort of the psychiatry bible um what's interesting is that the massachusetts general team is actually some of the foremost experts but of course they won't be yeah that's that's interesting dr orr to [01:10:10] Speaker 1: you um you know one of the rubs against lindsey clancy is that oh well she was a labor and delivery nurse she should have known better that she was experiencing these things your response i think [01:10:22] Speaker 4: this is the humility that we all think that we're exceptions and it's never going to happen to us this can happen to every single woman that gives birth it happens one in a thousand births but it can happen to me it could happen to anyone no one it doesn't there's no you know it doesn't choose socioeconomic status or race anyone can have postpartum psychosis some people have again more vulnerabilities and risk factors like if their mother had postpartum psychosis or they've had psychosis in the past but everyone can get this and i think if you have that humility that can be [01:10:53] Speaker 1: really important here yeah uh deborah deborah miller i'm with her i'm exhausted this is like a therapy [01:10:59] Speaker 4: session this is uh we're being traumatized i think as as an audience frankly um and as a country uh so i [01:11:07] Speaker 1: think that's also part of the exhaustion yeah a hundred percent margaret mcclain host of the margaret mcclain show check it out on youtube like subscribe like subscribe to and subscribe to surviving the survivor uh as well since you're here it's easy you just got to use your index finger to hit that uh light button margaret was also a professor at boston college like our good friend dr ann burgess uh but unlike ann burgess margaret uh an accomplished trial lawyer and a prosecutor um what is the biggest uphill battle here margaret uh for the commonwealth i mean what what hurdle do [01:11:43] Speaker 5: they really have to get over in your final thoughts oh they have to prove uh sanity beyond a reasonable doubt and i think that's an uphill battle especially after the dr resnick testifies right so again beyond a reasonable doubt it's pretty significant and there will be enough i think the defense defense is going to show enough uh evidence through again they don't have any burden but they're going to show enough evidence that this woman was really suffering tremendously from postpartum psychosis and you know they'll get into that waxing and waning that sarah was talking about how she it's possible to be lucid one minute and have a conversation with someone and do these horrible things because a voice told you to do it so i again i think it all goes to the education of those jurors as as joe was saying as well so that's going to be the hardest part is to prove sanity beyond a reasonable doubt and i think it'll get much more [01:12:43] Speaker 1: more difficult as the defense builds its case yeah um dr sarah auric has more initials after her name than the uh alphabet um so it tells you something md ms dr it goes on and on and on she's also the president of movida health and she turned 19 last week so even more impressed well thank you i'm not she's the female doogie hauser um dr orrick just this is i keep saying this there's really uh nothing good to say about any of this this is a tragedy all the way around i mean i get like this sounds so [01:13:21] Speaker 4: much like andrea yates and we didn't talk about the parallels there but this is um the only silver lining because there are none here um is maybe more education for the public and if these forensic psychiatrists and who testifies like really does a good job of explaining this to a lay public that [01:13:37] Speaker 1: could be good for everyone yeah so that was that was my question and that is her answer more education i think if people start to understand this andrea yates i think earlier i said 2001 someone told me 2005 it's been 20 plus years i think uh we need a lot more education andrea yates i think had the option to get out of that hospital and said no keep me here uh she didn't want to leave which tells you something in and of itself and by the way her husband stood by her side um and in this case you've got patrick clancy uh standing by his ex-wife's side which is interesting but uh remarried remarried correct correct that is true uh remarried in april this year uh joe krause he comes to us from brockton marvelous marvin haggler's hometown it's a fighting town and uh joe krausky's as salt of the earth as kevin reddington um your friend kevin who's been doing this for uh a few years now um how important is his uh this main witness coming up uh dr resnick what's a guy like reddington by the way he doesn't really have a lot of notes he's there by himself um he doesn't have counsel by his side um what's he doing on a night like tonight joe uh preparing for the next day uh marvin haggler but also rocky [01:14:58] Speaker 3: marciano and we are we're the hub of plymouth county here in brockton i just wanted to add one more comment the biggest obstacle the commonwealth has they don't have to prove motive but motive this is res ipsut locutor it speaks for itself why else would she have done this but for mental illness the only thing i've heard loosely tossed around is selfishness she did not kill her three children because she was selfish uh kevin reddington don't be fooled he's old school but he's working uh and he'll be working all night he'll be working all weekend and dr resnick i mentioned one but he's got i believe dr zeisel he's got a host of experts and it i don't know if he's going to call one two three or or all of them but this is a financed experienced defense team joe how long does this trial [01:15:50] Speaker 1: last some people said six to eight weeks i don't think it's going to go that long how long do you think [01:15:54] Speaker 3: it lasts no jury selection went a little quicker than i think people anticipated i think six would be on the outside we're not like california in some of those states you know i i do murder trials that will go three to four weeks so i think six weeks there might be a lot of delay they already took one day off there might be some other a lot of these experts are out of state so i think six weeks including [01:16:17] Speaker 1: deliberation and one other quick question there's a field trip on friday to the house what is that supposed to accomplish joe is that does that mean there's no court that day what what's happening [01:16:27] Speaker 3: there no they'll they'll leave usually there's a quick they allow the judge sullivan allows the attorneys to make a view statement where they just describe to the jurors what they're going to see and what to look for and there was some pre-trial litigation regarding this the commonwealth wanted it the defendant thought it was redundant with the pictures and videos judge sullivan likes views i know that from my cases so they're going to go on the property and they are going to go into that house and they are going to see the rooms and kind of get a feel for it although i have heard that the house does not look any and one of the objections was it looks nothing like it did before and pro video is so prolific and they've got their 3d diagram and all that you don't really need it but they're going to do it but when they get back 11 30 12 o'clock they'll go right into the evidence typically unless he's going to give them a half day i think the judge when you ask about how long it's going to take is mindful these jurors are going to be hearing this is this is hard work right they're going to be hearing some really traumatizing stuff uh throughout the course of this trial so i think he's going to give them a lot of early days or at least give them the option whether or not they want to break early [01:17:38] Speaker 1: on a lot of these days and uh the one guy on the panel uh who knows nothing from nothing is me but i'm going to go with the price is right and say it's going to be under six weeks i'm going to go with three to four weeks just because i don't know how much this jury is going to be able to handle uh this and i think the lawyers are going to keep that in mind uh and also i want to be able to take a little time uh in august before i go to another trial so uh that is wishful thinking on my part but a great panel margaret mclean love you plymouth massachusetts joe krowski love you brockton mass love you los angeles where my wife is from that huge thanks to all the guests and uh this is as we said there's no nice way to say this is an awfully horrible case with not a lot of positive outcomes other than we learn more about postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis uh we'll be back tomorrow with more um testimony in this case assuming the coe she decides in our house so i'll let you know but i'll be uh posting on twitter at podcast sds on instagram at surviving the survivor and don't forget to like and subscribe love you america we will see you soon guests stick around for me for one second second thank you