Patrick Clancy: Full cross-examination

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: President Jury, thank you for your patience with us. What we're now going to do at this point is we're going to return to the evidence. We have witness Patrick Clancy, who testified earlier, is now being recalled, as I said, for the purpose of cross-examination. OK, all right, counsel? Thank you, Judge. [00:00:25] Speaker 2: Afternoon, Mr. Clancy. You and I have certainly met before, correct? Correct. Would you agree with me that I went with you and your brothers, maybe some other people, into your home very shortly after the state police finished with searching and removing what they felt was evidence from the home? [00:00:47] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:00:48] Speaker 2: And you recall that you went into different rooms and looked at different things. And I think I took some photographs and things of that nature. Do you remember that? [00:00:57] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:01:04] Speaker 2: So if I may, you met Lindsay back when she was in school, or was she working as a nurse? [00:01:12] Speaker 3: She was at the MGH Institute. [00:01:14] Speaker 2: And the MGH Institute is like Mass General Hospital nursing program, correct? [00:01:19] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:01:20] Speaker 2: And she had some kind of like an accelerated course or something. Yeah. Had a double major. Yeah. She was a very good student. [00:01:27] Speaker 3: She was, yeah. [00:01:29] Speaker 2: And she, at a relatively young age, got her RN and was a nurse at Mass General, correct? [00:01:36] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:01:37] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:01:38] Speaker 2: And at Mass General, she was a, they call it L&D, a labor and delivery nurse. Is that it? Yeah. Do you remember how many years she worked in Mass General? [00:01:51] Speaker 3: Um, I think she started in 2014. [00:01:53] Speaker 2: Um, do you remember when she graduated from nursing school? Six months earlier. [00:01:59] Speaker 3: Six months earlier. [00:02:00] Speaker 2: And were you guys in a relationship then? We were. Yeah. And had you started living together in Southie or was that before then? [00:02:09] Speaker 3: Not in Southie. We didn't live together in Southie. We lived together in Quincy. Quincy. [00:02:13] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:02:14] Speaker 2: Um, tell us a little bit about, um, you know, Lindsay, obviously the most, um, how did she like being a nurse? [00:02:23] Speaker 3: She loved it. I think it was her dream. [00:02:26] Speaker 2: Did you say that she enjoyed her work and helping people? [00:02:30] Speaker 3: Definitely. [00:02:31] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:02:32] Speaker 2: So there's been some commentary here from the government about that she was anxious because she had to go back to work, like she didn't want to go to work, she was lazy or whatever the case may be. Objection. [00:02:43] Speaker 1: Sustained. If you could rephrase that. [00:02:45] Speaker 2: All right. So I'll strike lazy then. She didn't want to go back to work, but I believe you said in answer to the DA there was a reason that you could see that she was anxious about going back to work, correct? [00:02:59] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:03:00] Speaker 2: Now, was she anxious about going back to work, to your knowledge, because she just didn't want to work? [00:03:06] Speaker 3: No. [00:03:07] Speaker 2: What was the reason? [00:03:08] Speaker 3: She struggled to be away from our kids at a young age. [00:03:12] Speaker 2: Yeah. So when you guys ultimately moved to Doxbury, did you have children then? Yeah. And as the years went by, you obviously had more children. Ultimately, you got three children, correct? Yeah. Yes. Tell us about her birth with Cora. Yeah. And Cora. It was a bit of a rough breath. Is that right? [00:03:35] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:03:36] Speaker 3: She didn't have time to get an epidural and she bled a lot. [00:03:42] Speaker 2: Do you, in the years that you lived with Lindsay as boyfriend and girlfriend, fiancees, and then ultimately husband and wife, do you recognize your handwriting? [00:03:53] Speaker 3: I haven't seen it in a long time, but I'm not sure. [00:03:58] Speaker 2: Okay. Well, the council's looking at that. Is it your understanding, would she take notes or lists and work and home and things of that nature? Yeah. [00:04:17] Speaker ?: Excuse me. [00:04:18] Speaker 2: I'm going to approach you, sir, with this document and just ask if you can recognize the handwriting. [00:04:28] Speaker 3: Yeah. That looks like your handwriting. [00:04:30] Speaker 2: Looks like Lindsay's handwriting? Yeah. So I'm going to run away after this. [00:04:36] Speaker 1: Any objection? [00:04:37] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:04:38] Speaker 1: All right. If I could see the council. [00:05:08] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. 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[00:05:50] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:05:53] Speaker 3: I'm going to run away after this. [00:05:54] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:06:10] Speaker 3: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:06:12] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:06:19] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. [00:06:20] Speaker 3: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. 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[00:09:19] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:09:21] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. [00:09:22] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:09:24] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:09:38] Speaker 3: I'm going to run away after this. [00:09:39] Speaker 1: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:09:41] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:09:43] Speaker 1: I'm going to run away after this. [00:09:44] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:09:48] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. 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[00:10:27] Speaker 3: I'm going to run away after this. [00:10:38] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:10:40] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. [00:10:41] Speaker 3: I'm going to run away after this. [00:10:42] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. [00:10:43] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:10:47] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. [00:10:48] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:10:53] Speaker 3: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:10:55] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:10:58] Speaker 3: I'm going to run away after this. [00:11:08] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:11:12] Speaker 1: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:11:16] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:11:20] Speaker 4: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:11:22] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. [00:11:23] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:11:38] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. 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[00:19:23] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:19:25] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:19:41] Speaker 3: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:19:43] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:19:50] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:19:52] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:19:54] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:08] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:09] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:13] Speaker 3: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:16] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:20] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:23] Speaker 3: I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:24] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:25] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:28] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:40] Speaker 3: I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:41] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:48] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:52] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:53] Speaker 3: I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:54] Speaker 2: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:56] Speaker 3: I'm going to run away after this. [00:20:57] Speaker ?: I'm going to run away after this. I'm going to run away after this. [00:21:09] Speaker 3: I'm going to run away after this. That's Lindsay and Cora. [00:21:11] Speaker 2: Was that some kind of like a family fun day, if you recall, where there was like lots of things for kids to get in? Yeah. [00:21:18] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:21:19] Speaker 2: The end of September, '21. [00:21:27] Speaker ?: Callan? [00:21:28] Speaker 3: No, that's Dawson. Dawson. [00:21:32] Speaker 2: Okay. September, '21. Callan was born when? [00:21:35] Speaker ?: I'm sorry. [00:21:36] Speaker 2: May, '22. Okay. And Christmas Eve, December 24th of 2021. That's Cora's birthday. Okay. And that's her birthday party that year? [00:21:46] Speaker 3: Yeah. Now that's 2021, right? [00:21:48] Speaker 2: Correct. Fast forward one year, and that would be December, Christmas of 2022, right? Right. And was that when you guys had the birthday party for... Right. And was that when you guys had the birthday party for... Right. Right. And was that when you guys had the birthday party for... Right. You guys had the birthday party for... At the trampolines? No. [00:22:08] Speaker 3: When was that? I believe it was January 7th. Okay. [00:22:12] Speaker 2: But that was the... That would have been for that particular birthday, right? [00:22:15] Speaker 3: That was for the birthday with friends, because most people weren't available on Christmas Eve. Christmas Eve, right. Okay. And then... [00:22:22] Speaker 2: And down. Again, September 1st of '22. Remember when that was taken? Yeah. [00:22:27] Speaker ?: That's with Callan and Dawson. [00:22:28] Speaker 2: And was that your yard? That's in the backyard. Backyard. Okay. This would have been September of '22. [00:22:33] Speaker 3: Obviously right before '23, right? Right. And was that your yard? [00:22:36] Speaker 2: That's in the backyard. Backyard. Okay. This would have been September of '22. Obviously right before '23, right? Right. And... Again... For this one here, July of '22. Can you tell me if you guys had a pretty good summer that year? It was a good summer. [00:23:00] Speaker 3: Yeah. That was on Cape Cod. This picture was on Cape Cod? [00:23:03] Speaker 2: Yeah. Couple of points that I wanted to raise, sir, with you. We have an email sent from your... Is it Surface Pro? Is that what it's called? That was my laptop. [00:23:34] Speaker 3: Is that? Yeah. [00:23:36] Speaker 2: I'm going to approach you, sir, and ask if you can identify this as being an email that [00:23:57] Speaker ?: you sent. Yeah. [00:23:59] Speaker 1: Okay. I'd just like to know the purpose of... [00:24:01] Speaker 2: Purpose? [00:24:02] Speaker 1: Yes. I would say the purpose. [00:24:04] Speaker 4: No. You could approach that. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:09] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:24:09] Speaker 4: Thank you. [00:24:10] Speaker 1: Thank you. [00:24:11] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That may be admitted. [00:25:11] Speaker 1: No objection, your honor. No objection, your honor. Okay. Thank you. That may be admitted. [00:25:16] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, while we're waiting for the copy, let me just move on to something else. Do you recall yesterday the district attorney was asking you a question. or statement. stated to you that on decision. On decision on decision on decision on decision on decision on decision on decision on decision decision on decision on decision on decision on decision on decision on decision on decision on decision on decision on decision on decision. All right. [00:25:31] Speaker 2: Well, while we're waiting for the copy, let me just move on to something else. Well, yesterday the district attorney was asking you a question or stated to you that on December 2nd of 2022 that you and your wife went to a fancy hotel in Boston and she had a massage and you both had a big dinner. Do you recall her asking you that question? Yeah. And in fact, would you agree, sir, that you did not in fact go to a fancy hotel December 2nd of 22 being a Saturday night before your anniversary the third. You stayed at home, didn't you? We did. [00:26:19] Speaker 3: We stayed at home. [00:26:20] Speaker 2: And when you were asked that question by the VA, she wanted the inference to be that Lindsey Clancy in December of 22 was so relaxed that she wanted to have a massage and have a big dinner in a hotel. In fact, she was in her bed, in her bedroom that night. Objection. [00:26:37] Speaker 1: It's sustained. If you could rephrase that. [00:26:39] Speaker 2: I'm approaching you with what it appears to be from one of the photographs that the district attorney had showed you yesterday with her in a mask. The mask and, I believe, the dressing and the mask. Mm-hmm. Right? And then... [00:27:11] Speaker ?: Yep. [00:27:15] Speaker 2: Now, that photograph, sir, was actually preserved, if you will, on the LaptopPro computer. Isn't that right? [00:27:27] Speaker ?: Um... [00:27:28] Speaker 2: Did she send that to you? [00:27:30] Speaker 3: She sent it to my computer. Okay. I don't know. [00:27:34] Speaker 2: And where was she? Do you remember when that picture was taken? Okay. Let me show you. [00:27:39] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:27:40] Speaker 2: Okay. That's what the photograph was. [00:27:42] Speaker 3: It looks like they're at the doctor. [00:27:44] Speaker 2: At the doctor's office. [00:27:45] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:27:46] Speaker 2: And can you tell me the date that that picture, right here in the corner of the top, what date was that picture taken? It's December 2nd. The same date that we're talking about, correct? Correct. And what time was the picture sent? [00:28:06] Speaker 3: 12:45 PM. Okay. [00:28:08] Speaker 2: So, when you're dealing with these things on the computers, it's a little hard sometimes to understand what they're depicting. Right there, you see that there, that's the date that we're talking about, right? [00:28:38] Speaker 3: Right. Just to clarify though, it looks like that was on an iPhone. [00:28:42] Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sorry. iPhone. Okay. It was sent to you though. [00:28:46] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:28:47] Speaker 2: And it was on December 2nd, the date that the DA was suggesting you were in Boston having massages and dinner, right? [00:28:53] Speaker 4: Objection. That was December 3rd. All right. [00:28:56] Speaker 1: That's the jury's memory. Yeah. If you can answer that. [00:29:01] Speaker 2: Do you recall, sir, that she also had sent you the same day, or taken a picture, of what appears to be Cora's Christmas list, wish list. Is that what that is? [00:29:21] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:29:22] Speaker 2: Okay. And if you look at the record on that, that was sent. If you can read that. It's December 2nd at 6:13 PM. [00:29:30] Speaker ?: 6:13 PM. And then finally, if you look at the metadata that is apparently buried in the photograph. [00:29:38] Speaker 3: Um, it gives latitude and longitude of where the photograph was taken. [00:29:45] Speaker 2: Is that right? If you're familiar with metadata, I would imagine. The way you can't do this. [00:29:50] Speaker ?: Use the tape. Use the tape. [00:29:50] Speaker 2: Use the tape. Use the tape. [00:29:52] Speaker ?: The tape. [00:29:52] Speaker 2: The tape. The tape on the thing tells you where to put the photo. Oh. [00:29:55] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:29:55] Speaker 2: Yeah. [00:29:56] Speaker ?: That's our address. [00:29:57] Speaker 2: Okay. And that would be the metadata with the latitude and the longitude and shows you where these photos were taken. Correct? Correct. Correct. [00:30:04] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:30:04] Speaker 2: About the needs, your honor? So, I think we had exhibits, right? Right? Right? [00:30:08] Speaker ?: If you're familiar with metadata, I would imagine. The way you can't do this. Use the tape. Use the tape. [00:30:12] Speaker 3: Use the tape. Use the tape. The tape. The tape on the thing tells you where to put the photo. [00:30:16] Speaker ?: Oh. Thank you. [00:30:18] Speaker 3: Yeah. That's our address. [00:30:20] Speaker 2: Okay. And that would be the metadata with the latitude and the longitude and shows you where these photos were taken, correct? [00:30:27] Speaker 1: Correct. [00:30:28] Speaker 2: Okay. About the needs, your honor? [00:30:30] Speaker 1: So, I think we had exhibit 76. They're making a copy of that. Do you want to mark that? I don't know if we marked that yet. That was the earlier one, just so everybody could keep this straight. And this latest email would be exhibit 77. [00:30:51] Speaker 2: That would be the letter, the email. [00:30:57] Speaker ?: The one that just copied. [00:30:58] Speaker 2: Yeah. The email right here. [00:31:00] Speaker ?: Yep. [00:31:09] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:31:10] Speaker 5: Exhibit 76 on 77. Okay. Thank you. [00:31:14] Speaker 2: Thank you. Now, sir, exhibit 76 is an email from you. We will kind of delete the people that are on the email, if I may, your honor, as we mark it as an exhibit. Let me approach you. Does it indicate the date and the time at the very top you sent that email to your staff members? It does. [00:31:47] Speaker 3: It does. Yep. [00:31:49] Speaker 2: Well, the jury is what the date was. [00:31:52] Speaker 3: It's January 24th at 5:24. [00:31:55] Speaker 2: And that was sent from your Surface Pro? [00:31:59] Speaker 3: I don't know, actually. It could have been sent from my iPhone. [00:32:02] Speaker ?: I don't know. Okay. [00:32:04] Speaker 1: That would be exhibit, exhibit 76. [00:32:08] Speaker 2: Now, when was Kalen born? [00:32:22] Speaker 3: May 26th, 2022. May 26th, 2022. [00:32:24] Speaker 2: My memory serves that it was a good birth. It was not an easy birth, but I mean, there were no complications? [00:32:29] Speaker 3: There were no complications. [00:32:30] Speaker 2: And were both of you very happy with Kalen being born healthy? Yeah. [00:32:35] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:32:36] Speaker 2: We felt very lucky. And then in that summer of 22, you had one of the best summers that you've had, right? Yeah. What happened in September, October of 2022? [00:32:51] Speaker 3: Lindsay's mental health started to deteriorate. [00:32:55] Speaker 2: And when you say that, sir, what is it that you, as your husband, observed? [00:32:59] Speaker 3: Just increased stress and anxiety. [00:33:02] Speaker 2: And did she, as a result of that, go to see or reach out for help to see someone? Yes. [00:33:10] Speaker 3: And who was that? I believe it was Jennifer Tufts. [00:33:14] Speaker 2: Now, Jennifer Tufts is a psychiatrist? [00:33:17] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:33:18] Speaker 2: Yeah. And where was she located? [00:33:21] Speaker 3: I never went to her office, somewhere on the South Shore. [00:33:26] Speaker 2: Do you remember when Lindsay went to see Jennifer Tufts? [00:33:31] Speaker 3: I don't remember the exact date. I think it was sometime in September. I wasn't really involved at the beginning of Jennifer Tufts. Of course. [00:33:42] Speaker 2: Do you recall that the difficulties or the troubles, so to speak, began towards the end of September into October of '22? [00:33:59] Speaker 3: Yeah, it was pretty gradual. [00:34:02] Speaker 2: But do you remember when the DA asked you yesterday whether or not you used your computer to Google suicide in, I think it was August of '22? Do you remember her asking you that question? [00:34:17] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:34:18] Speaker 2: And do you remember your response? [00:34:24] Speaker 3: No, honestly. You didn't Google that, did you? I don't think I did, no. [00:34:29] Speaker 2: No. But I'm going to show you, sir, a web history of your computer. Have in mind that the question was asked of you as to whether or not in August of '22 you Googled suicide, you responded no, right? [00:34:46] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:34:47] Speaker 2: The inference being, I guess, that back in August of '22, she wouldn't Google me, apparently, right? Sure. You know a guy named Tim Hall? [00:34:57] Speaker 3: I think you mean Tom Hall? [00:34:58] Speaker 2: Yeah, Tom Hall, I apologize. Who's Tom Hall? [00:35:01] Speaker 3: He's a musical artist. [00:35:04] Speaker 2: He's a what artist? [00:35:05] Speaker 3: Like a musical, like a country artist. [00:35:07] Speaker 2: Country? Is he like a guitar playing guy or a singer? [00:35:10] Speaker 3: Yeah. Was. [00:35:12] Speaker 2: When you say was, what happened to him? [00:35:15] Speaker 3: He committed suicide. [00:35:16] Speaker 2: And I'm going to show you, sir, your Surface Pro records back in August of '22. Do you recall Googling the name Tom Hall so you could access one of his new albums and new records? [00:35:39] Speaker 3: I do remember briefly listening to Tom Hall's music. Okay. [00:35:43] Speaker 2: Now you've never seen, I haven't, you haven't seen this document, correct? Correct. All right, and this would be, I'm sure you're probably familiar with it, when you get a phone dump or a computer records dump, you get a print out of all the sites that somebody would go on Google, Wikipedia, things like that. [00:36:01] Speaker 3: Right. [00:36:02] Speaker 2: If you can look to the right. [00:36:04] Speaker 3: Yep. [00:36:05] Speaker 2: Down a little bit, and you see I think it says Tom Hall? [00:36:08] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:36:09] Speaker 3: What does it say on Tom Hall? [00:36:10] Speaker 2: It says his Wikipedia page. Yep. [00:36:12] Speaker ?: Let's see here. Put it up here. [00:36:14] Speaker 3: Put it up here. Put it up here. Put it up here. [00:36:17] Speaker ?: Put it up here. [00:36:18] Speaker 2: Put it up here. [00:36:19] Speaker ?: Put it up here. Put it up here. Put it up here. Put it up here. Put it up here. So. [00:36:25] Speaker 2: Here, we've got. Here, we've got. [00:36:33] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. [00:36:37] Speaker 2: So that shows you when somebody Googles, and then it goes Wikipedia. And you see where up above it says suicide methods? [00:36:54] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:36:55] Speaker 2: Now you didn't, as you said to the DA, you didn't Google suicide methods, right? [00:36:59] Speaker 3: I didn't Google suicide methods, no. [00:37:01] Speaker 2: But in fact, sir, when you Googled Tom Hall, it took you to the Wikipedia page, and it said that he died, right? [00:37:08] Speaker 3: He did, yeah. [00:37:09] Speaker 2: And then you clicked on the Wikipedia page, and it went into a hyperlink. You know what a hyperlink is? Yeah. Hyperlink. Yeah. What is a hyperlink? [00:37:19] Speaker ?: Just so I know. [00:37:20] Speaker 3: So like in Wikipedia, it would be a word that's highlighted in blue, and it goes to a website. [00:37:27] Speaker 2: Okay. So, if I suggest to you, sir, that as you move down on your searches that afternoon, that you were looking at Tom Hall, that it brought you to ways to commit suicide. Suicide, Tom Hall, Google search again, Tom Hall, all on that date at the same time. And you were just looking to see about the guy because he killed himself, right? [00:37:56] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. [00:37:58] Speaker 2: Yeah. [00:37:59] Speaker 3: Any objects? Can I just see the packet? [00:38:01] Speaker 4: Oh, yeah. Again, Your Honor, I got that discovery from the DA, so it's... [00:38:06] Speaker 2: Well, it's an email from his expert on us. [00:38:07] Speaker ?: Just take a look at it, and we'll kind of go from there. [00:38:07] Speaker 2: We'll have to say. Thank you. Thank you. [00:38:10] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:38:11] Speaker 4: Well, it's an email from his expert on us. [00:38:13] Speaker 1: Just take a look at it, and we'll kind of go from there. We'll have a second. [00:38:41] Speaker 2: While she's looking at that, I just ask, what is the URL? What does that mean? Hold a second, she gets a chance to finish. [00:38:52] Speaker 4: Yes, I would object. [00:38:57] Speaker 1: If I could see, council. [00:39:11] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So while that's being marked Exhibit E for ID, basically, that would at least refresh your memory, sir, that in fact, [00:40:28] Speaker 2: inadvertently, that you touched the Wikipedia thing for a suicide, but it was for Tom Hall, the singer, right? Sounds like that was the case. Okay. Do you recall what medication Lindsay was put on by Dr. Tufts? [00:41:02] Speaker 3: She started with Zoloft. [00:41:03] Speaker 2: Now, council had asked you about whether or not Lindsay was on Zoloft or any SSRI antidepressant medication in the past. Do you remember that question? Yeah. Do you remember her asking about that you were having a conversation with her and she said that she was going on Zoloft and that she had already been to Tufts, or was it Tufts that she got the script from? Correct. Okay. Okay. She told you that, right? Yeah. She didn't hide that from you, right? No. And you were at a wedding, is that right? You were walking down the street, the two of you together, like at the end of the night, and she basically told you that she had to use the meds? [00:41:45] Speaker 3: It was earlier in the day, it was before the wedding, but yeah. [00:41:48] Speaker 2: Okay. And do you recall how, to your observation, how dedicated was she to taking her medications as instructed by the numerous doctors that she ultimately saw? [00:42:04] Speaker 3: She always took them as instructed. [00:42:07] Speaker 2: Do you remember, did she in fact have a diary that she kept of the milligrams, the type of medication, the date that she took the medication, and what, if any, the actions that she had to it? Do you recall that? [00:42:31] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:42:32] Speaker 2: And do you remember where that was kept? Did she keep it in any particular place? [00:42:36] Speaker 3: I think she kept it in the kitchen. [00:42:37] Speaker 2: In the kitchen. So I'm going to show you a photograph that the state police took in your house. Is this a fair and accurate picture, a picture of your kitchen? Yeah. So, that kind of shows a bunch of books that are in a, like, a room. In a, like a cabinet or something, right? [00:43:06] Speaker ?: Right. I'm going to show you this enlarged spine, if you will, of a book. [00:43:06] Speaker 2: I'm going to ask if you haven't read that before. I don't recall seeing this. I don't recall seeing this. [00:43:09] Speaker ?: Would you agree, sir, that this book is, in fact, the same book, the same coloring that was in the bunch of books in the kitchen? Yeah. [00:43:10] Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah. [00:43:12] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. Okay. [00:43:14] Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. [00:43:16] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. [00:43:16] Speaker 2: Okay. [00:43:17] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. [00:43:18] Speaker 2: Thank you. Okay. Okay. [00:43:21] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:43:21] Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. Okay. [00:43:24] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:43:25] Speaker 2: seeing this. Would you agree sir that this book is in fact the same book, the same coloring that was in the bunch of books in the kitchen? Yeah. In this book you see what the caption of the book is. [00:43:55] Speaker 3: Yeah, it says good moms have scary thoughts. [00:44:02] Speaker 2: And I'm going to approach you with this document, sir, which would be a number of pages from the book, the cover of the book, and the inside of the book. You've never seen that before at all? [00:44:20] Speaker 3: I don't recall seeing this. Thank you. [00:44:22] Speaker ?: So with that I understand, Your Honor, I will not offer this at this time. Hold on, if you could show what it is that you got. [00:44:34] Speaker 2: I'm sorry, you said you're not offering it? Oh, the foundation. [00:44:37] Speaker ?: Okay. Any objection? [00:44:37] Speaker 2: No. Okay. [00:44:39] Speaker ?: So can I put it in? Yes, that's fine. [00:44:41] Speaker 1: Okay, great. Thank you. No objection to him not offering it. [00:44:44] Speaker ?: All right. [00:44:44] Speaker 1: If I could just look at it. Yeah. [00:44:46] Speaker ?: Why don't I, why don't we do this? [00:44:46] Speaker 1: Why doesn't everybody come over here with that? [00:44:47] Speaker 4: We can kind of figure out where we go. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you said you're not offering it. [00:44:49] Speaker 2: Okay. Any objection? [00:44:51] Speaker ?: No. [00:44:52] Speaker 1: Okay. So can I put it in? Yes, that's fine. [00:44:55] Speaker 4: Okay, great. [00:44:56] Speaker 1: Thank you. [00:44:57] Speaker ?: No objection to him not offering it. [00:44:58] Speaker 2: All right. If I could just look at it. Yeah. [00:45:01] Speaker 4: Why don't I, why don't we do this? [00:45:02] Speaker 1: Why does everybody come over here with that and we can kind of figure out where we go? [00:45:17] Speaker ?: Okay. Thank you. Thank you. [00:45:47] Speaker 2: Thank you. Who was the next doctor, if you recall, that Lindsay went to consult with? [00:46:35] Speaker 3: Julie Paul. [00:46:36] Speaker 2: And is this a doctor or a nurse practitioner? [00:46:41] Speaker 3: I don't remember with Julie Paul. It was very brief. [00:46:44] Speaker 2: Okay. Now, is it fair to say that Julie Paul was at South Shore? Yeah. [00:46:49] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:46:50] Speaker 2: And Julie Paul was a friend of your mother's. Is that right? [00:46:55] Speaker 3: Yeah. I think they're acquaintances. [00:46:57] Speaker 2: Yeah. And your mother was a nurse also at South Shore Hospital? [00:47:01] Speaker 3: In L&D. [00:47:02] Speaker 2: Yeah. And your mother was good enough to refer Lindsay to this person to consult with, right? [00:47:11] Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think it was a formal referral. I think she just said, "This is a specialist that you might want to talk with." [00:47:17] Speaker 2: All right. And did she go to see the specialist? [00:47:20] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:47:21] Speaker 2: And did you go with her? Or was this a... [00:47:23] Speaker 3: No. I never met Julie Paul. [00:47:25] Speaker 2: Get yourself up. Were these, like, in-person meetings or are they, like, what do you call them? Zoom meetings? [00:47:31] Speaker 3: And... Most of the meetings were Zoom. The only in-person that I'm aware of was with Rebecca Gelata. [00:47:36] Speaker 2: Rebecca Gelata. Okay. And that was because you insisted on it, right? [00:47:40] Speaker 3: I thought it was warranted at that time, yeah. [00:47:43] Speaker 2: Right. Because you were pretty much at your wit's end with the 15-minute Zooms and you wanted to sit down eyeball to eyeball and talk to this person, right? [00:47:52] Speaker 3: I hadn't attended any prior to that. I just wanted to get clarification. I wanted to see if we could get on the same page. [00:48:00] Speaker 2: Okay. All right. So now, Lindsay's on Zoloft from Dr. Tufts, the psychiatrist, correct? [00:48:08] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:48:09] Speaker 2: And then that runs into when, when you guys, she goes to see Nurse Paul. [00:48:19] Speaker 3: Can you clarify? What is it? Can you clarify what you're asking? [00:48:22] Speaker 2: Yeah. What month? [00:48:24] Speaker 3: When was it that she saw Nurse Paul? Maybe October, but I'm not sure. [00:48:28] Speaker 2: Okay. When she saw Nurse Paul, do you remember where she saw Nurse Paul or was it a video thing? [00:48:34] Speaker 3: I don't know. [00:48:35] Speaker 2: I wasn't involved. Okay. Did Nurse Paul prescribe medication to her? A lot if he knows. I don't know off the top of my head. All right. Do you recall whether or not, to your opinion, that she had any reactions to the Zoloft that she had been placed on by Dr. Tufts? Infection. [00:48:58] Speaker 1: I don't know any observations that were made. Right. [00:49:02] Speaker 2: So it's not guesswork. It's observations. Anything you saw and observed. Yeah. [00:49:07] Speaker 3: It seemed to align with her insomnia symptoms. [00:49:11] Speaker 2: Now, the insomnia, inability to sleep, was that a significant problem from your observations with her? Yeah. It was a huge problem. And when you say huge problem, was there one point when she was on medication from Tufts that, in fact, she had gone 48 hours, I think, without sleep? [00:49:28] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:49:29] Speaker 2: And that was disturbing to her? [00:49:31] Speaker 3: Yeah. And it was just hard to function. And how about you? Was it disturbing to you? I just wanted her to get sleep and feel better. [00:49:39] Speaker 2: Now, during that period of time, she then went and saw the next doctor or nurse practitioner, which we talked about, which would be nurse practitioner Paul at South Shore, right? Right. Now, after seeing nurse practitioner Paul, if you remember or know, did you observe? Did she seem to get better or did she seem to get worse? [00:50:01] Speaker 3: It would be hard to say. It was, I think it was a week at most. So, it's really hard to say in that short of timeframe. Sure. [00:50:12] Speaker 2: And when you say a week at most, you mean that that's like she was seeing nurse practitioner Paul for about a week? Yeah. [00:50:19] Speaker 3: I mean, she may have only seen her once. It was very brief. And then she got reassigned somewhere, so. [00:50:25] Speaker 2: And the reason, if you know, that she got reassigned somewhere would be doctor, nurse practitioner Gelata, right? [00:50:32] Speaker 3: Right. [00:50:33] Speaker 2: Same practice, right? Right. And the reason was because Paul moved on to another job, right? [00:50:41] Speaker 3: Right. [00:50:42] Speaker 2: So, Lindsay wasn't out doctor hunting. She was referred by the nurse practitioner that was referred to you guys by your mom because Paul was leaving, right? [00:50:53] Speaker 3: Yeah, she just switched doctors in the same practice. All right. [00:50:56] Speaker 2: Now, she sees Dr. Gelata, right? Right. Did Dr. Gelata, to your knowledge, put her on medication? Yeah. And what was the medication if you know? [00:51:08] Speaker 3: Mainly Seroquel and benzodiazepines, Ativan. [00:51:15] Speaker 2: No. Benzodiazepines, they're addictive, right? Apparently. Objection. [00:51:22] Speaker ?: I'll allow it. [00:51:23] Speaker 5: And a benzo would be, for example, Ativan, correct? Correct. [00:51:25] Speaker 2: Now, Seroquel, she was placed on Seroquel as well, is that correct? Right. And to your observation, again, you're not a doctor, what you saw of your wife, was she affected positively or negatively by the Seroquel that she was on? [00:51:38] Speaker 3: It appeared that she was affected very negatively and she's reporting that she was getting worse on the Seroquel. [00:51:57] Speaker 2: And do you know, did she report that to Dr. Gelata? Yeah. [00:52:03] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:52:04] Speaker 2: When she would consult with Dr. Gelata, prior to you actually going, do you know, were they all on video? [00:52:14] Speaker 3: Yeah, they were all on Zoom. [00:52:16] Speaker 2: Okay. Do you have any opinion for the jury as to approximately how long these meetings on Zoom would be with the nurse practitioner? Probably around 20 minutes. At some point, do you recall that you went with Lindsay to see Dr. Gelata, is that right? Yes. And do you remember, if you remember, when that was? Early December. In early December of 2022, can you tell the jury, from your observations, how did Lindsay appear? How was she acting? How was she faring? [00:52:52] Speaker 3: She was extremely sleep deprived and just highly anxious. [00:53:00] Speaker 2: Was there a number of occasions that you would actually see her on the sofa rocking back and forth with her head under a pillow? Yeah. Did you report that and other symptoms to Dr. Gelata? [00:53:12] Speaker ?: Lindsay did. [00:53:13] Speaker 2: So when was it, if you recall, that you went and saw Dr. Gelata with your wife, person to person? [00:53:24] Speaker 3: When was it? Yep. Early December. I think it was December 6th. [00:53:28] Speaker 2: And do you remember, you have a pretty good memory about this, do you remember what medication she was prescribed by Gelata? [00:53:35] Speaker 3: Coming out of that meeting? Yep. Yeah. She increased the Seroquel significantly. And then I, and then she prescribed her Valium to help taper off of the benzos. Taper off the benzos? Yeah. [00:53:52] Speaker 2: To your knowledge, did Lindsay go to doctors to seek out benzodiazepines or drugs just because she was a drug addict? No. [00:54:03] Speaker 3: No. No. Lindsay, I think wanted to, um, she definitely didn't want to take any more benzodiazepines and definitely didn't want to take any more Seroquel. I think that it wasn't really a matter of trying to get off the medication. It was just trying to get on the right medication. Okay. [00:54:19] Speaker 2: Um, let's say mid December. What observations, if any, heading up towards Christmas, did you guys, uh, endure? [00:54:29] Speaker 3: Um, she seemed to get worse. Um, the Seroquel was increased to 400 milligrams. 400? [00:54:36] Speaker 2: Yep. [00:54:37] Speaker 3: By Dr. Gelata. [00:54:38] Speaker 2: Yeah. [00:54:39] Speaker 3: Yeah. And, and the idea behind that was it would help with sleep. Um, but she didn't get better. She, she got worse. [00:54:49] Speaker 2: Do you recall that at one point she went to a place called women's and infants? Yeah. In Rhode Island. Right. Women and Infants Center for Women's Behavioral Health. Do you recall that? Right. Do you remember when she actually went to women's behavioral health? [00:55:12] Speaker 3: Uh, sometime in mid December. I don't know the exact date. [00:55:15] Speaker 2: All right. So if I suggest to you, sir, that I have certified copies of the women and infants, uh, medical records, uh, indicating that on December 20th of 2022, uh, that was the day that you'd done. That was the day that you dropped her off at women. Does that refresh your memory? Yeah. Your Honor, I'd like to offer the certified copies of the women and infants hospital records. [00:55:36] Speaker 5: I would object. We don't have a copy of those. [00:55:39] Speaker 2: All right. [00:55:40] Speaker 1: Um, you don't have them? Could I see everybody here? [00:55:57] Speaker ?: I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. [00:57:28] Speaker 2: I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. [00:57:30] Speaker 3: I would have a copy of those. [00:57:31] Speaker 2: I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. [00:57:36] Speaker 3: I would have a copy of those. [00:57:37] Speaker 2: I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. I would have a copy of those. [00:57:40] Speaker ?: I would have a copy of those. [00:57:41] Speaker 3: I would have a copy of those. [00:57:50] Speaker 2: Okay. [00:57:51] Speaker 3: Did you go and talk to them? [00:57:52] Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you remember who you talked to? [00:57:54] Speaker 3: I don't remember their names. [00:57:55] Speaker 2: Do you remember the conversation? Did you describe or indicate what her symptoms were at that point in December 20th of 2022? [00:58:04] Speaker 3: Yeah. The conversation was they didn't. Objection. Yes. All right. Sustained at this time. [00:58:12] Speaker 2: Did the people at women's and infants facility in Rhode Island prescribe any medication to your knowledge? [00:58:21] Speaker 3: I don't think so. [00:58:22] Speaker 2: Did they provide any counseling or anything? [00:58:25] Speaker 3: I think they tried to, but they felt that it wasn't the right fit for Lindsay. [00:58:31] Speaker 2: Do you recall that in fact it was because of the drugs, they weren't sure what symptomology would be because of the drugs? Objection. [00:58:41] Speaker 1: Sustained. [00:58:42] Speaker 2: Do you recall whether or not the people at women and infants in Rhode Island reached out to Dr. Gelata? [00:58:51] Speaker 3: I don't think so. Well, if he knows. I don't think they did, no. [00:58:56] Speaker 2: And was it one day or half a day that she went to women and infants in Rhode Island? [00:59:02] Speaker 3: It was half a day. Half a day. [00:59:04] Speaker 2: So after you pick her up and you bring her home, it's now you and the kids? Lindsay and it's days before Christmas, right? [00:59:15] Speaker 3: Yeah, and her parents were there. [00:59:17] Speaker 2: Why were her parents there? [00:59:19] Speaker 3: They were visiting, trying to help out, and I took Dawson to watch. She said they stayed home with Cora and Kellen. [00:59:28] Speaker 2: Now, during that time frame in December of '22, maybe a little bit before, maybe after Thanksgiving, did your mom and dad and Lindsay's parents' comments to your house and try to help out with the kids? [00:59:44] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was separately, though. [00:59:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, it would be separately. I mean, what would they do? [00:59:51] Speaker 3: Just be there, help out, play with them, get takeout, play Scrabble. [01:00:01] Speaker 2: Did Lindsay's mother and father actually stay there and sleep in the basement? [01:00:06] Speaker 3: They did, yeah. [01:00:08] Speaker 2: Were you aware personally, let me back up, you and Lindsay as husband and wife would in effect sleep in the same bedroom, is that correct? [01:00:16] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:00:17] Speaker 2: There was an occasion, though, that she said to you about you go downstairs, and then I think she ended up downstairs? [01:00:24] Speaker 3: Yeah, for the purposes of her getting better sleep. [01:00:27] Speaker 2: And for her purposes of getting better sleep, were you aware that on one occasion she used a gummy, a sleep aid gummy? Did you know that? [01:00:40] Speaker 3: I don't recall that, but we did have them in the house. [01:00:43] Speaker 2: Okay. Now, to your knowledge, was Lindsay a person that liked to smoke the weed and use the CBDs, oils, and all that stuff, or did she not imbibe in that? [01:00:54] Speaker 3: No, she didn't smoke. [01:00:56] Speaker 2: So, you had these gummies in the house, sleep aid, right? [01:01:01] Speaker 3: I mean, some people might call them a sleep aid. [01:01:04] Speaker 2: Okay. Heading into the holidays of '22, do you recall where you spent Christmas? [01:01:18] Speaker 3: I think it was at our house. We celebrated Cora's birthday, and then I think we actually went down to Wallingford, Connecticut, to be with her parents after. Her parents? [01:01:29] Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay. And then heading into January of '23, who did she then see for doctors or nurse practitioners, if you know? [01:01:43] Speaker 3: After she got back from McLean? Yes. She switched back to Jennifer Tufts. [01:01:49] Speaker 2: Now, before she switches back to Tufts in January, on New Year's of 2022, 2023, you guys drive to Boston, go to MGH, and ultimately she turns herself into McLean Hospital, right? Right. Now, McLean Hospital is basically a locked ward facility, correct? Correct. Was she allowed to just wander around and leave the place whenever she wanted? [01:02:19] Speaker 3: She couldn't leave, but inside she could go to different areas. [01:02:23] Speaker 2: Can you tell, Jerry, what her state of mind was as she went to McLean Hospital with her husband on New Year's '23, at that point? [01:02:32] Speaker 3: She was scared. She didn't want to go, but I think it was the second time we went to the ER, and I said, "You have to go." [01:02:42] Speaker 2: Now, at McLean Hospital, I know you visited with her. Is that correct? [01:02:47] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:02:48] Speaker 2: District Attorney asked you yesterday about the excellent care that she was provided with all these counselors and therapists, and you indicated that it was your understanding that she was playing with clay and coloring, right? [01:02:59] Speaker 3: Right. [01:03:00] Speaker 2: Can you describe for the jury what McLean was like to you as a husband visiting his wife? In other words, were there doctors? Were there nurses? Were there people in the hallways? [01:03:09] Speaker 3: What I saw was it looked like mainly nurses. It was the tail end of COVID, so they're mostly behind this plastic-covered area. It could have been just the time of day that I visited, but people were hanging around, watching TV, playing with clay. [01:03:32] Speaker 2: Do you know whether or not she saw a doctor, a psychiatrist, ultimately from McLean Hospital? [01:03:41] Speaker 3: I was not aware of that. The only one I was aware of was the doctor on the second to last or final day. [01:03:48] Speaker 2: And what was that, Dr. Goodhart? [01:03:50] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:03:51] Speaker 2: And did you speak to Dr. Goodhart? [01:03:54] Speaker 3: I ended up calling her. I wanted to see what her evaluation was, and so I gave her a call and we spoke, and she said, you know, she's clearly depressed. Sustained. Sustained. [01:04:13] Speaker 2: Okay. So, you spoke to Dr. Goodhart. Yeah. Did Dr. Goodhart, to your knowledge, prescribe any medication? [01:04:22] Speaker 3: I think she recommended medication, and then -- [01:04:26] Speaker 2: How many medications did she recommend? [01:04:28] Speaker 3: I don't know if she recommended multiple. I want to say it was Cymbalta, but she said, you know, check with your doctor and make a decision. [01:04:40] Speaker 2: So, when Lindsay left, it was because she wanted to leave one day early because of Cora's birthday. Is that right? [01:04:48] Speaker 3: I didn't think it was -- I don't think it was one day early. I think she had a five-day stay, which, at the time, my understanding was that was pretty standard. And, yeah, she did want to attend Cora's birthday. [01:05:01] Speaker 2: Okay. So, there's no doubt, sir, in your mind, that when she was discharged from McLean that -- you got these, right? McLean? Yes. Yeah. That when she was discharged from McLean Hospital, it was not against medical advice. The doctors gave her to go help and let it go with you, right? Right. [01:05:19] Speaker 1: Are they off of the McLean records? [01:05:20] Speaker 2: Any objection? [01:05:21] Speaker 1: No. All right. They may be admitted. [01:05:24] Speaker ?: They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. [01:05:26] Speaker 2: They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. [01:05:28] Speaker ?: They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. [01:05:31] Speaker 2: They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. [01:05:41] Speaker 3: They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. [01:05:42] Speaker 2: They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. [01:05:50] Speaker 3: They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. [01:05:52] Speaker 2: They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. [01:05:53] Speaker 3: They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. [01:05:55] Speaker 2: They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. [01:05:58] Speaker ?: They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. [01:05:59] Speaker 3: They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. [01:06:01] Speaker 2: They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. [01:06:08] Speaker ?: They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. [01:06:09] Speaker 2: They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. They may be admitted to the doctor's birthday. You had the party for Cora, correct? Yeah. You guys had friends over, friends that you guys knew? [01:06:22] Speaker 3: Friends came to the party, which was at a place in Plymouth. [01:06:27] Speaker 2: Would you agree with me that Lindsay had a number of friends from actually grammar school through high school through college that she stayed in touch with over the years? Yeah. And you as well? [01:06:38] Speaker 3: Yep. [01:06:39] Speaker 2: And they're good friends. Like you still would see them and you guys would do dinner and things of that nature, right? [01:06:44] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:06:45] Speaker 2: Actually, one of your friends, I think it was one of your friends, it might have been one of her friends, actually named her in January or around that time frame to be godmother or take care of their child if anything bad happened to them and they were dead, right? Remember that? [01:07:02] Speaker 3: My brain has been foggy for the last couple of years. [01:07:06] Speaker 2: I understand. [01:07:07] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:07:08] Speaker 2: Okay. In January, as time went by, do you recall that she would actually continue to take notes of her medications that she was taking, right? [01:07:25] Speaker 3: That sounds like something Lindsay would do. [01:07:27] Speaker 2: I kept a diarrhea or a little log, right? Yep. I'm approaching you, sir, with this and asking if you can identify this. Are you ready? [01:07:37] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:07:38] Speaker 2: And when you say yes, and I'll put it on the little screen, what is it? [01:07:41] Speaker 3: It's the dosage of medication that she took and how she's feeling. [01:07:55] Speaker 2: So this is kind of like a little medical diary that she was keeping. [01:07:59] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:08:00] Speaker 2: For example, you know, here you'd see on that five milligrams Valley and 200 Seracole slept well. Horrible thoughts in the morning, right? [01:08:08] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:08:09] Speaker 2: And did she at some point, I think the DA had asked you. I'm going to offer this if I may. [01:08:14] Speaker 1: Any objection? No. That may be admitted. [01:08:17] Speaker ?: Thank you. [01:08:18] Speaker 2: There was an occasion where she told you in the presence of her mother that she was having horrible thoughts, right? [01:08:37] Speaker 3: Right. [01:08:38] Speaker 2: And you told us about that yesterday, and it was quite an emotional thing for her to do that, right? Right. After that timeframe, you continued on. You were working in the basement, right? Yeah. I shouldn't say basement. It was a finished place, right? A finished basement, yeah. And that was where you worked on a regular basis. Is that right? Yeah. Would that be a 40 hour week or longer? [01:09:08] Speaker 3: It varied, but yeah, roughly 40 hours. [01:09:11] Speaker 2: I know it was maybe COVID, tail end of COVID, but one of the other reasons that you did that was so you could be home and help out. Is that right? [01:09:20] Speaker 3: Yeah. I worked from home since 2018. Okay. But yeah, I built an office down there. [01:09:26] Speaker 2: So you were always there. Yeah. Not always, but you were down there when you would work. [01:09:31] Speaker 3: When I wasn't traveling. Yeah, I was there. [01:09:33] Speaker 2: Okay. So when would you travel? Tell us about that. [01:09:36] Speaker 3: I really didn't travel actually much during COVID, just towards the end and once in November. [01:09:43] Speaker 2: November of what year? [01:09:45] Speaker 3: 2022. November of 2022. But before that, I traveled extensively. [01:09:49] Speaker 2: Let's look at November of 2022. November of 2022 is a month before she's telling you and her mother that she was having thoughts about hurting children, right? [01:10:01] Speaker ?: Right. [01:10:02] Speaker 2: November of 2022, and you traveled, where did you travel to? [01:10:07] Speaker 3: New York. [01:10:08] Speaker 2: And how long were you there, sir? [01:10:10] Speaker 3: Two nights. [01:10:13] Speaker 2: And who took care of the kids? [01:10:15] Speaker 3: Lindsey. Sorry? Lindsey took care of the kids. [01:10:22] Speaker 2: Lindsey. So for two days, two nights, a month, and a week or so, before she killed the children, she was home with the kids for two days. Is that right? Right. Fair to say that you also had your friends that you would do brunch with on occasion, Sundays or weeknights or whenever, guys night type thing? Yep. And you'd be out with your friends. If she wanted to kill the kids, she certainly could have done at that time when you're out, right? In theory. As opposed to sending you on a three-minute trip to CVS and a nine-minute trip to a restaurant, you were away for two days in November and on a number of occasions for brunch as well as skiing, right? You were a pretty active guy. Yeah. Right? I'm going to approach you, sir, in another one of the books that was in the kitchen cabinet, I believe. Do you remember this one? [01:11:26] Speaker 3: I don't think so. [01:11:31] Speaker 2: But is it fair to say, sir, that she had a number of books about parenting and things like that, and this one here was Pregnancy and Postpartum Anxiety Workbook. Did she have workbooks that you were aware of or work diagrams and things like that? [01:11:58] Speaker 3: She had books of different sorts. [01:12:02] Speaker 2: So you can't identify this as being in the kitchen, right? [01:12:10] Speaker 3: I don't recall seeing that book. [01:12:12] Speaker 2: Can I write this idea? [01:12:13] Speaker 3: Sure. [01:12:14] Speaker 5: Thank you. [01:12:27] Speaker 2: By the way, I will draw that. I'm going to approach you, sir, with this document and ask if you can identify it. [01:12:46] Speaker 3: It says postpartum depression and anxiety patient information sheet. [01:12:50] Speaker 2: Okay. And if you go towards the end there, if there's some fear to beat her writing in it? [01:13:00] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:13:01] Speaker ?: Okay. All right. All right. That may be admitted. Is there any money? Yeah. Okay. All right. Is there any money? Okay. [01:13:05] Speaker 1: All right. That may be admitted. All right. [01:13:08] Speaker ?: That may be admitted. [01:13:09] Speaker 2: Thank you. It's got a bunch of flowers on the front. It appears to be a notebook. So you're understanding that the state police went in your house and they seized all sorts of items such as this? [01:13:51] Speaker 3: Yep. [01:13:51] Speaker 2: So we don't have originals that the police do. Right. Fair and accurate? [01:13:56] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:13:59] Speaker 2: Is that the caption that you were referring to? [01:14:03] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:14:04] Speaker 2: Postpartum depression and anxiety. [01:14:06] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:14:06] Speaker 2: And at the end of this particular document, you would agree, sir, that it has writing? [01:14:15] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:14:16] Speaker 2: And whose writing is that? [01:14:18] Speaker 3: Lindsay's. [01:14:20] Speaker 2: And is this like a book or notes that she would take documenting on a daily basis, any effect that she had from postpartum? [01:14:30] Speaker 3: It appears to be a case. [01:14:32] Speaker 2: Yeah. Your Honor, I would offer the records of Dr. Jennifer Tufts. Ask the mental health records. [01:14:58] Speaker 1: No option. [01:14:59] Speaker 2: All right, that may be, they may be admitted. I'm going to have to, I think, maybe talk to the DA about this, because I do have a lot of tabs and notes in this one. I know we have clean copies, right? [01:15:10] Speaker 4: We have a clean copy we're planning to admit, so that's no problem. [01:15:12] Speaker 1: So we'll enter that, and then before we can then substitute it with a clean copy. Thank you. [01:15:28] Speaker 2: John, can I see the exhibit for the office? One of the things that you had identified yesterday was the document that you obtained from CVS, is that correct? Yes. It sets forth all of the medications that were purchased by Lindsay, by prescription from the physicians that she had seen during that period of time, correct? [01:15:59] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:16:01] Speaker 2: And you indicated yesterday that the police had seized a number of pill bottles and then you also had a number of pill bottles, is that right? [01:16:15] Speaker 3: Right. [01:16:18] Speaker 2: And the pill bottles that you had, do you recall, what are the circumstances that you had them in a bag in your car? [01:16:28] Speaker 3: The reason I had them in a bag is because sometimes a provider would adjust medications. So, for example, I do remember Lindsay had a prescription of Ativan, and then a few days later they wanted to increase the dosage because it wasn't effective. So, what they would do is they would say, give that old prescription to your husband, he'll discard it, and then continue taking from the new prescription. [01:16:58] Speaker 2: And then the DA yesterday went through that there were scripts and there were pills on the 30 count, but then there's 27 and three were gone, but that's because she wasn't taking her medication. That's not the case, it was what you were told to do, right? [01:17:12] Speaker 3: Correct, yeah. Without that context, it paints a different picture. [01:17:21] Speaker 2: Exhibit 2 would be the pills that you had turned in, I believe, is that correct, that were in your bag, in your car? [01:17:30] Speaker 3: Right. [01:17:30] Speaker 2: I know you can't tell from what it was in the bag. [01:17:32] Speaker 3: Right, I remember it's Exhibit 2, though. [01:17:34] Speaker 2: Okay. Wednesday, January 24th, one of the troopers located four medication bottles, and at some point on the 26th, at about 2.30 in the afternoon, bottles were then documented by the police. When was it, if you know, that you turned these items in to the police? [01:17:57] Speaker 3: I believe it was after the event. I don't remember the exact date, but I remember I told them I do have other prescriptions in my truck still, and I gave them to them. [01:18:10] Speaker 2: Okay. So the police already went in with a search warrant. They already seized all the drugs that they could find in the house, in the kitchen, in the bedroom. Were there drugs in the kitchen, by the way? [01:18:20] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. [01:18:21] Speaker 2: They're all over the place, right? [01:18:23] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:18:24] Speaker 2: And they seized that, right? [01:18:26] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:18:27] Speaker 2: And then you, to be cooperative, told the police that you also had pills in your car, and you went to the DA's office and gave them to Attorney Sprague and the state police, right? [01:18:38] Speaker 3: Right, but to be clear, those were discontinued prescriptions. [01:18:41] Speaker 2: These are the ones that she stopped? [01:18:43] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:18:44] Speaker 2: All right, and then you had new prescriptions, so there were new prescriptions that were prescribed to her, right? [01:18:49] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:18:50] Speaker 2: Now, when I met with you in the house, long after the state police had gone and finished their search, you recall that we went up to the bedroom, and I removed this from the nightstand right next to the bed? [01:19:03] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:19:04] Speaker 2: Can you tell us what that is? What is this? Is it a drawer, obviously? [01:19:08] Speaker 3: That's the drawer that goes into the nightstand. [01:19:09] Speaker 2: And inside the drawer, sir, do you recall that there were a number of items that I see? Yeah. [01:19:20] Speaker ?: Yeah. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:19:20] Speaker 2: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:19:22] Speaker ?: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:19:25] Speaker 2: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:19:30] Speaker ?: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:19:33] Speaker 2: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:19:38] Speaker ?: That's the drawer that I see. [01:19:39] Speaker 2: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:19:41] Speaker ?: That's the drawer that I see. [01:19:42] Speaker 2: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:19:53] Speaker ?: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:19:57] Speaker 2: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:20:12] Speaker ?: That's the drawer that I see. [01:20:13] Speaker 2: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:20:16] Speaker ?: That's the drawer that I see. [01:20:17] Speaker 2: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:20:23] Speaker 3: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:20:25] Speaker 2: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:20:39] Speaker ?: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:20:42] Speaker 2: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:20:46] Speaker ?: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:20:48] Speaker 3: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:20:52] Speaker 2: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. [01:20:59] Speaker 3: That's the drawer that I see. That's the drawer that I see. Yeah. Yes? Yeah, she did. [01:21:15] Speaker 2: Your Honor, I would offer the drawer. [01:21:22] Speaker 4: I could just see. Yeah. [01:21:25] Speaker 1: I think there's a watch on the side there. I know. [01:21:28] Speaker ?: I see what's on there. [01:21:35] Speaker 4: No objection. [01:21:36] Speaker 1: Okay. Do you want to put that in as one exhibit? Sure. Okay. [01:21:42] Speaker ?: A reference to the Apple Watch, sir. [01:21:44] Speaker 2: How many Apple Watches did she have? Just one. [01:21:46] Speaker ?: Just one. [01:21:47] Speaker 2: The only one she had. The police never seized it, right? Correct. And the drugs that were in the drug. The empty drugs and the pill bottles from January, December, '22, '23. The police never seized it, right? Correct. And the drugs that were in the drug. The empty drugs and the pill bottles from January, December, '22, '23. The police never seized it, right? [01:21:58] Speaker ?: Correct. [01:21:59] Speaker 3: And the drugs that were in the drug. [01:22:00] Speaker 2: The empty drugs and the pill bottles from January, December, '22, '23. The police never seized it, right? Did they? No. I'm showing you an item, sir. It's like a little green piece. Have you ever seen that before? [01:22:08] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:22:09] Speaker ?: Can you tell the jury what it is? Objection. We could go to sidebar. Yeah. Can I see council sidebar, please? [01:22:14] Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [01:22:17] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. To your knowledge, sir, was she advised by nurse practitioner Tufts to keep a nighttime doctor at the hospital? [01:26:13] Speaker 3: Thank you. Thank you. [01:26:15] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [01:26:30] Speaker 2: Thank you. To your knowledge, sir, was she advised by nurse practitioner Tufts to keep a nighttime dump diary of all of her thoughts and write them down so that she had something that she could refer to? [01:26:47] Speaker 3: Not that I'm aware of. [01:26:49] Speaker 2: Do you ever see her writing notes in a diary or like a thing with dates on it, November 23rd, for example, things of that nature? [01:26:58] Speaker 3: I knew she kept notes, but I didn't see her doing it. Yeah. [01:27:02] Speaker 2: I'm going to show you this document or item, ask, that appears to be her handwriting. [01:27:08] Speaker ?: Yeah. [01:27:09] Speaker 2: And does that contain indication as to her state of mind, particular date, or dates thereafter? Yeah. Yeah. Just take a look at the other page. [01:27:23] Speaker ?: It's just a little short of the wallet. Right? Right? [01:27:30] Speaker 1: Yep. [01:27:31] Speaker 2: You want to write what I want for this one? [01:27:34] Speaker 1: Call home. [01:27:35] Speaker 2: Can I see it, please? Yeah. [01:27:37] Speaker ?: Yeah. [01:27:38] Speaker 2: I got it from the state police, so I assume you guys have it. [01:27:42] Speaker ?: No objection. [01:27:43] Speaker 5: Okay. [01:27:44] Speaker 1: That may be admitted. Okay. [01:27:46] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. [01:27:52] Speaker 4: Okay. Okay. [01:27:54] Speaker 2: I'm going to show you another document, sir. It appears to be a document. Do you recognize her handwriting? That document with dates September 29th, April 22? [01:28:05] Speaker ?: Yes. [01:28:06] Speaker 2: And is that, if you had, can you tell us what that appears to be, sir, if you know? [01:28:11] Speaker 3: It looks like a schedule for Callen. [01:28:14] Speaker 2: And the schedule for Callen, that would be, what, like when he's eating or sleeping or something like that? Yeah. [01:28:22] Speaker 3: And naps. [01:28:23] Speaker 2: Yeah. So, for example, where it says September 29th, there it is, 22, and then it makes reference to Callen, last fed with a timeframe, and then there's a bunch of pages like that that go forward on those dates. Is that what that is? Yeah. Put them down for a nap, 9:35 with a smiley face, things like that, right? [01:28:44] Speaker 3: Right. [01:28:45] Speaker 2: Is this typical for Lindsey that she would document these things as a new mother? Yeah. Was she being controlling, in your opinion, of her child and of you by doing this schedule? [01:28:56] Speaker 3: No, I found it helpful. [01:28:58] Speaker 2: Any objection? [01:29:00] Speaker 3: No objection. That may be admitted. [01:29:02] Speaker 1: Any objection. [01:29:03] Speaker 2: One of the things, sir, that the district attorney had asked you about is the exhibits of the, I think it was the window in the bedroom. You said it was 20 feet drop to the ground? [01:29:23] Speaker 3: Right. [01:29:24] Speaker 2: Is that right? This is a photograph of the same one you already introduced, but I just don't know where it is. So this is the photograph of the house, and you can identify that, right? [01:29:39] Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the living room window. [01:29:41] Speaker 2: Okay. And the window that you're talking about that's 20 feet up would be on the very top of that picture, correct? Correct. Now, when you identified this picture, you see that there's some kind of an orange ball, appears to be an orange ball underneath the silt? [01:30:17] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:30:18] Speaker 2: The left? It appears to be red marks or red spots, like possibly blood above it? [01:30:24] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:30:25] Speaker 2: Can you tell the chairs what that little orange ball is? [01:30:28] Speaker 3: Yeah, we had a woodpecker who would peck at the house and create holes. That's why I've paired some of the other sections, too. And I took some foam and filled the hole. [01:30:39] Speaker 2: I'd offer that, Your Honor, just a continuity. [01:30:49] Speaker 1: No objection. That may be admitted. [01:30:51] Speaker 2: And I'd also, if I may, just the top picture, I believe, is also see where it looks like fingerprints or blood on the edge of the window on the second floor. You see that? That's from the house? Yeah. [01:31:05] Speaker ?: Excuse me. [01:31:06] Speaker 5: You're turning right in. Yeah. [01:31:08] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. [01:31:10] Speaker 2: I'm talking about the hornet thing right here. And then this is, I see on this top here. Okay. So you see on the top of this window here. Underneath the hornet thing, you can see it. But in the exhibit, you can see there's like blood drops or blood smears there. [01:31:38] Speaker 3: Yeah. I see it. [01:31:40] Speaker 2: That's the first floor window that's directly underneath the second floor window, right? Right. [01:31:44] Speaker 1: That's right. [01:31:45] Speaker ?: Any objection? [01:31:45] Speaker 2: No. [01:31:46] Speaker 1: They may be admitted. No. [01:31:48] Speaker ?: They may be admitted. No. [01:31:48] Speaker 1: No. [01:31:49] Speaker ?: They may be admitted. No. [01:31:51] Speaker 2: I'm all set. Thank you, sir. I'm all for a redirect. [01:32:18] Speaker 4: Yes, sir. Thank you. Mr. Clancy, you were shown an email and it's been marked as an exhibit that you sent to coworkers on January 24th, 2023 at 5:24 PM, correct? Yeah. And you were asked about it coming from the Surface Pro, but your testimony was that it could have come from your iPhone, correct? Correct. And in fact, you watched footage earlier of yourself going into the CVS in Kingston at 5:32 PM, correct? [01:32:51] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:32:52] Speaker 4: And you had your phone with you, correct, because you used it? Yeah. And we also saw you on the 3V footage using your phone as well, correct? [01:32:59] Speaker 3: Right. [01:33:00] Speaker 4: So this, you were clearly out of the house at 5:24 PM, correct? [01:33:05] Speaker 3: Sorry, what time did you say I was at CVS? [01:33:09] Speaker 4: So you walked in at 5:32 PM, correct? Correct. And you left the house, as you were leaving the house, Lindsay sent you the text about PDLX, correct? [01:33:22] Speaker 3: I don't know if I had left the house yet, but yeah. [01:33:26] Speaker 4: But that was sent at 5:15 PM, correct? Right. And how far away is the Kingston CVS? Three minutes. [01:33:33] Speaker 3: Okay. [01:33:34] Speaker 4: And so you leave the house, you get into your car, and you drive to CVS, correct? Correct. And so that should have taken three minutes, correct? Yep. So after the text that was sent at 5:15 PM, that would have been sometime around 5:18 or 5:20 PM that you should have arrived at CVS, correct? [01:33:53] Speaker 3: Right. [01:33:54] Speaker 4: But you don't go in until 5:32 PM, correct? [01:33:58] Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know what time I pulled in the parking lot. [01:34:03] Speaker 4: I'm not asking what time you pulled into the parking lot, but is it fair to say that the video that you were shown earlier shows you entering the store at 5:32 PM? [01:34:11] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:34:12] Speaker 4: So from the time you should have been at the parking lot of CVS around 5:20 PM until 5:32 PM, could you have been in your car sending this email on your iPhone? [01:34:24] Speaker 3: Yeah, I just don't know if I pulled into the parking lot at 5:20. [01:34:28] Speaker 4: But sometime after the text was sent from Lindsay about PDLX, but before 5:32 PM, you were in your car? [01:34:37] Speaker 3: Correct. Okay. [01:34:39] Speaker 4: Now, you were asked about my questions to you about going to Boston, and my questions to you were about December 3rd, not December 2nd, correct? Correct. Because your anniversary is December 3rd, not December 2nd, correct? [01:34:57] Speaker 3: Right. [01:34:58] Speaker 4: So Dawson was taken to the doctors on December 2nd, correct? [01:35:01] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:35:02] Speaker 4: And on December 3rd, did you have plans, not that they were followed through, but did you have plans to go to Boston that day? [01:35:08] Speaker 3: Yeah, so I can provide some clarification on that. Sure. So yeah, on Monday, I was a little bit confused by it because we were home. But yeah, I think there was a plan prior to that, like an anniversary plan to go to Boston, but it was canceled. [01:35:27] Speaker 4: Okay. [01:35:28] Speaker 3: And the picture you showed was from September. [01:35:31] Speaker 4: So the plans that you had to go to Boston, I'm showing you here some text messages between yourself and Lindsay. And here, there's one here that says the spa, the Omni is booked, but you're on the wait list as a backup. I have you booked for massage at the nearby IHG for 90 minutes at 145. Is that correct? [01:36:01] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:36:02] Speaker 4: And then you later say we can get lunch and then head over. She responds okay. And then you write that they'll let you use the gym and the pool while she's getting her massage. Is that correct? [01:36:18] Speaker 3: Right. [01:36:19] Speaker 4: And then you talk about plans for lunch and dinner. And so there were the plans, they just fell through, right? [01:36:28] Speaker 3: Yeah, we canceled them, yeah. [01:36:29] Speaker 4: So it's not as if I made that up out of thin air. That's here in the text messages, correct? Right, yeah. [01:36:34] Speaker 3: It was just confusing because we were home. But yeah, when I left, I recollected that and then I found the picture and the picture was from September. [01:36:44] Speaker 4: And was that from the wedding you went to? [01:36:46] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:36:47] Speaker 4: If we could have the text messages marked, this is something. [01:36:50] Speaker 1: Any objection? No. That may be admitted. [01:36:54] Speaker 5: 87. [01:36:59] Speaker 4: Now in cross-examination, you said that Lindsay always took the medications exactly as instructed. But in direct, you said you weren't always with her every time she took the pills. Is that correct? [01:37:12] Speaker 3: That's correct. But the understanding was that she took it as directed. [01:37:15] Speaker 4: Because she told you she did? [01:37:17] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:37:18] Speaker 4: And because you trusted her to do so? [01:37:20] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:37:21] Speaker 4: But you can't sit here and say definitively that she took every pill exactly as instructed every single time because you didn't watch her every time. [01:37:30] Speaker 3: Correct? I was not standing next to her every time she took pills. [01:37:34] Speaker 4: And you were asked about the Facebook search in August, August 23rd, 2022. And you were asked about being on the Surface Pro and looking up the country singer who had killed himself. Is that right? [01:37:49] Speaker 3: Right. [01:37:50] Speaker 4: Okay. So I think that what you said when you were asked by defense counsel about whether or not you accidentally went to this site on methods of suicide, you said that could be likely that might have happened. You're not sure, correct? [01:38:15] Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so subtle that I don't remember specifically. But I do remember listening to Tom T. Hall. [01:38:22] Speaker 4: How often did you listen to him? [01:38:24] Speaker 3: It was like for a week. [01:38:25] Speaker 4: Okay. And so were you aware that on 8:23, August 23rd, 2022, at 9:40 a.m. someone signed into Lindsay's Facebook account on the Surface Pro? [01:38:38] Speaker 3: No. [01:38:40] Speaker 4: And then at 9:43 p.m. is when the Tom Hall site was accessed. Do you recall that? Yeah. And at 9:45 a.m. is when a person not just hit a link by accident, but actually had to click on a link to go to suicide methods. Are you aware of that? No. [01:38:58] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:38:59] Speaker 4: Is there any reason why you would have been going in and logging on to Lindsay's Facebook account while going on Wikipedia and looking at suicide methods all in that same five minutes? [01:39:12] Speaker 3: No. I didn't use -- I didn't log into Lindsay's Facebook ever. It's very possible that I looked at Tom Hall's Wikipedia page, but -- [01:39:23] Speaker 4: At some point? [01:39:24] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:39:25] Speaker 4: Do you remember spending three minutes on the Methods of Suicide site, scrolling through and reading the Methods of Suicide site for three minutes? No. [01:39:36] Speaker 3: I don't remember something I did for three minutes almost four years ago. [01:39:41] Speaker 4: Do you remember being on that site, the Methods of Suicide, and clicking on a link to a bridge in Australia that people use to commit suicide? No. No. No. So, in this five minutes or so where someone's using the Surface Pro, using Lindsay's Facebook while doing that, and then clicking on these links you don't remember, you think it might have been you? [01:40:06] Speaker 3: I have no idea. Okay. [01:40:08] Speaker 4: Now, you talked about Lindsay's stay at McLean Hospital. You said that it was a locked ward she had to stay there. Is that correct? [01:40:22] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:40:23] Speaker 4: But it was a voluntary commitment, wasn't it? [01:40:26] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:40:27] Speaker 4: You didn't file any legal paperwork to have her committed, correct? [01:40:32] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:40:33] Speaker 4: There was no court order making her stay there, correct? Correct. So, if she wanted to leave and expressed to the doctors that she wanted to leave, and they didn't believe she was a danger to herself or others, she could leave, correct? [01:40:44] Speaker 3: To be honest, I don't know. Okay. [01:40:48] Speaker 4: Now, you stated on direct examination that you visited her two times during the time that she was there at McLean, right? At least twice, yeah. And you said those were in the evening hours, is that correct? [01:41:01] Speaker 3: Yeah, afternoon and evening. [01:41:03] Speaker 4: Afternoon and evening. So, you weren't there during the morning and early afternoon hours when they were offering these group therapies and when she was meeting with other practitioners? [01:41:14] Speaker 3: I wasn't there in the morning. Okay. [01:41:16] Speaker 4: And were you there during the, when the staff was checking on her every 15 minutes? [01:41:21] Speaker 3: No, but she did tell me about that. Okay. [01:41:24] Speaker 4: And were you aware that she was evaluated several times and at first she had to stay on the unit, but then eventually, based on what she was telling them, she was allowed to go on the grounds with staff? [01:41:35] Speaker 3: Yeah. I was aware that she went on at least, I think at least one walk. [01:41:39] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:41:40] Speaker 4: And so people were seeing her and interacting with her and changing the way her stay went at McLean Hospital throughout her stay? [01:41:49] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. [01:41:51] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:41:52] Speaker 4: And you talked about Dr. Goodhart recommending medications. What was the medication that you, you said that she recommended? [01:42:01] Speaker 3: I thought it was Cymbalta, but I think she ended up taking amitriptyline. [01:42:12] Speaker 4: So, looking here at the CVS records that you provided, we see, I'm sorry, so we see here, here we go. Okay. Aliyah Goodhart, second from the bottom. Yep. Chazodone, 50 milligrams. So, you thought that Dr. Goodhart had just recommended medication when it was actually a prescription that was given by Dr. Goodhart, correct? [01:42:57] Speaker 3: Right. But I believe, so there's another one as well, lorazepam. Yes. I believe those were prescribed while she was staying there. [01:43:04] Speaker 4: And so, they were filled at CVS and sent to McLean? [01:43:11] Speaker 3: Possibly. I remember there was an issue where she didn't have her medications when she went to McLean, so she needed them to be brought there. [01:43:19] Speaker 4: She was discharged on January 5th, correct? Right. Are you aware that this document from CVS says that the prescription for trazodone, 50 milligrams, prescribed by Dr. Aliyah Goodhart was filled on January 5th, 2023? [01:43:34] Speaker 3: Right. [01:43:35] Speaker 4: Okay. And then the other prescription by Dr. Goodhart, the lorazepam, one milligram lorazepam, was also filled on January 5th, 2023, correct? Yeah. So, that's when she was discharged, not while she was staying there, correct? Right. [01:43:52] Speaker 3: That's correct. [01:43:53] Speaker 4: So, Dr. Goodhart did that prescribed medication for Lindsay, trazodone, and Ativan, and not Cymbalta, correct? [01:44:02] Speaker 3: She recommended Cymbalta, but she wasn't the one who prescribed that. [01:44:07] Speaker 4: In fact, no one prescribed that, correct? [01:44:10] Speaker 3: Because it ended up switching to amitriptyline. [01:44:14] Speaker 4: And the amitriptyline was prescribed by Dr. Jennifer Tufts, correct? Right. [01:44:21] Speaker 5: And... [01:44:34] Speaker 4: And Dr. Tufts prescribed five milligrams of diazepam on January 9th, 2023, correct? Right. And amitriptyline on January 16th, it was 10 milligrams of amitriptyline, and that was prescribed when Lindsay said she was having some issues with depression, correct? Correct. Okay. So, she went to McLean Hospital, and she was weaned off the Seroquel, correct? [01:45:05] Speaker 3: I believe so, yeah. [01:45:07] Speaker 4: And all the medications that she had taken prior to going to McLean, she was no longer on, those were gone, correct? Once she had been in McLean. [01:45:15] Speaker 3: I don't know if it was... I'm not sure. I don't know if it was all of them. [01:45:19] Speaker 4: Well, are you... Did you have conversations with your wife about what she was taking? I mean, were you aware that she was only on... only prescribed Trazodone and Ativan when she left McLean, and then amitriptyline was only added on the 16th? So just those three medications? [01:45:38] Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think... I thought she was taking Trazodone before McLean. [01:45:42] Speaker 4: Right. So she had been prescribed it before and stopped taking it, correct? [01:45:47] Speaker 3: I don't remember. I'd have to look back on records. [01:45:50] Speaker 4: So you're not sure about what she was taking and when, are you? [01:45:53] Speaker 3: Not the exact dates, but I remember she was taking Trazodone, and I thought she was taking it before McLean. [01:46:00] Speaker 4: So the best resource of what she was prescribed and when would most likely be the doctors and the CVS records then, correct? [01:46:08] Speaker 3: The CVS records is a good resource. [01:46:10] Speaker 4: And you talked about the pills and how these were pills that she was no longer on, so it wasn't really a good representation of what she had taken, correct? Correct. But she was only prescribed Zoloft once, right? At the very beginning. [01:46:32] Speaker 3: Right. [01:46:33] Speaker 4: And she only took seven of those pills, correct? [01:46:35] Speaker 3: Right. [01:46:36] Speaker 4: So it wasn't as if she was prescribed a higher dose or a different dose of Zoloft and was still taking that, and so that seven pills misrepresents the Zoloft she took, right? [01:46:49] Speaker 3: I believe she stopped because she was switched to Prozac. Okay. [01:46:54] Speaker 4: And then even going forward, the Prozac, there weren't many pills taken out of that either, correct? [01:46:59] Speaker 3: Yeah, eventually she stopped that as well. Okay. [01:47:02] Speaker 4: So she'd take a few pills, she'd have some side effects, they'd switch the medication, correct? [01:47:07] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:47:08] Speaker 4: And so they were trying to figure out what would work for her, correct? Yeah. [01:47:12] Speaker 3: Okay. [01:47:13] Speaker 4: And then she ends up at McLean because she's having difficulties, according to her, with the Seroquel, correct? [01:47:19] Speaker 3: That was part of it, yeah. [01:47:21] Speaker 4: And they wean her off of that, right? [01:47:23] Speaker 3: Yep. [01:47:24] Speaker 4: And then after McLean, she's only on the Trazodone, the Ativan, and then on the 16th adding in the Amitriptyline, correct? [01:47:34] Speaker 3: Right. [01:47:35] Speaker 4: You mentioned that you went to New York in November of 2022. Defense counsel said that was a month before the children were killed, but that's actually two months before they were killed, correct? [01:47:49] Speaker 3: It was, yeah, it was about a little more than two months. [01:47:53] Speaker 4: And she hadn't been on the Seroquel yet, right? [01:47:56] Speaker 3: I don't know exactly when she started the Seroquel. [01:48:00] Speaker 4: Would December sound right? [01:48:03] Speaker 3: Yeah, or end of November, yeah. [01:48:06] Speaker 4: And so when you took your trip to New York, she was having some issues, but she was doing okay, wasn't she? [01:48:13] Speaker 3: She was doing much better than she was in December. [01:48:16] Speaker 4: Okay, and did you also take another trip with Cora in November? [01:48:22] Speaker 3: Yeah, so I did the trip to New York, and as soon as I got back, went to bed, and then the next morning left with Cora. [01:48:29] Speaker 4: And was that November 4th through the 7th to San Francisco? [01:48:32] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:48:33] Speaker 4: And where, who was taking care of Dawson and Callan while you were in San Francisco with Cora? [01:48:39] Speaker 3: Lindsay. [01:48:40] Speaker 4: And so during your trip to New York, and then immediately after your trip to San Francisco with Cora, were there any issues, or any problems, or did anything happen while Lindsay was caring for those kids? [01:48:53] Speaker 3: Nothing bad happened. She was, I would say her anxiety and depression was starting to tick up, but yeah, obviously nothing bad happened. [01:49:02] Speaker 4: Okay. And it's your testimony that things started to get worse in December. Is that correct? [01:49:09] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:49:10] Speaker 4: But it was also your testimony that after the stay at McLean, things got better, wasn't it? [01:49:15] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:49:16] Speaker 4: And she steadily progressed throughout January getting better, right? [01:49:20] Speaker 3: Definitely, yeah. [01:49:21] Speaker 4: And on January 24th, 2023, you testified that that was one of her best days. Yeah. You were asked about the Apple Watch. The police didn't collect the Apple Watch, right? They did collect her phone, correct? You identified it earlier, right? [01:49:41] Speaker 3: Correct, yeah. [01:49:42] Speaker 4: And her Apple Watch was linked to her phone, was it not? [01:49:45] Speaker 3: It probably was, yeah. [01:49:48] Speaker 4: You were also asked about the drop from the second floor window. Were you aware that the measurement from the windowsill to the ground was actually 12 feet? [01:50:01] Speaker 3: I've never measured it, but yeah, I believe what you're saying. [01:50:06] Speaker 5: I'm looking for one of the exhibits from Defense Council. It's the, yes. [01:50:23] Speaker ?: Exhibit 84. [01:50:23] Speaker 4: This was the packet here that Defense Council was going through with you, where you said this is Lindsay writing Kellan's schedule. Is that right? Right. But this was also Lindsay sending notes back and forth between herself and Elaine. Is that correct? [01:50:53] Speaker 3: Possibly. Possibly. [01:50:55] Speaker 4: There's different writing here, correct? If you want to look at it. Yeah. For example, this first page after the cover, we have writing here that you said was Lindsay's, correct? [01:51:09] Speaker 3: It looks like it, yeah. [01:51:10] Speaker 4: Yeah. And then down here there's a note that's in different handwriting, correct? [01:51:15] Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say so. Okay. [01:51:18] Speaker 4: So were you aware that Lindsay was using this notebook to communicate back and forth with the nanny about Kellan's care? [01:51:25] Speaker 3: She had different notebooks. She always had a notebook that she would leave for the babysitter or for me. [01:51:30] Speaker 4: And so, for example, on Tuesday, September 4th, she wrote, "Last Fed at 6 AM. Give him a bottle whenever he wakes up, he likes it very warm. He's been resisting the bottle. If he won't drink it after 45 minutes of trying, please text me to let me know. Put down for next nap one hour after he wakes. Try to put down drowsy but awake. But if he cries, pick him up and rock, bounce, or hold him until sleep, then put down. He usually sleeps 45 minutes but let him sleep as long as he wants." These are very detailed notes that Lindsay is sending to the nanny, correct? [01:52:05] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:52:06] Speaker 4: And then she also wrote, "If you have time, wash and cut up veggies, sweet potatoes, one-inch cubes peeled, broccoli, small pieces, peppers, one-inch pieces, plastic Ziploc bags to put them in. Next bottle, two and a half hours after the first bottle." Correct? [01:52:22] Speaker 3: I believe what you're reading, yeah. [01:52:24] Speaker 4: So very particular about what she wanted the nanny to do, how she wanted her to do it, and when to feed Callan, when to put him down for a nap, all of those things. Very particular, correct? Sounds like it, yeah. [01:52:36] Speaker 3: Again, Thursday, September 29, 2022. [01:52:37] Speaker ?: Callan last fed at 8:45. Please put him down for a nap at 9:35. You will be home from gymnastics at 11:45. Clean clothes and dryer if you get to it. [01:52:37] Speaker 3: So, again, very specific time. [01:52:38] Speaker ?: Let's put him down for a nap at 9:35. You will be home from gymnastics at 11:45. Clean clothes and dryer if you get to it. So, again, very specific times for putting them down for a nap at 9:35. You will be home from gymnastics at 11:45. Clean clothes and dryer if you get to it. So, again, very specific times for putting them down for a nap at 9:35. You will be home from gymnastics at 11:45. Again, Thursday, September 29, 2022. Callan last fed at 8:45. Please put him down for a nap at 9:35. You will be home from gymnastics at 11:45. Clean clothes and dryer if you get to it. [01:52:46] Speaker 4: So, again, very specific times for putting him down and when to get up and asking her to do additional work like laundry. So, again, very specific times for putting him down and when to get up and asking her to do additional work like laundry and things like that, correct? Yeah. Again, October 6, 8:00 at 8:15, fell asleep at 8:40, changing tables now in the bathroom. If he wakes before 9:40, give him 15 minutes to settle himself back to sleep. I'm hoping he will sleep until 10:15. If he is still asleep at 10:40, wake him. Feeding at 11:00 a.m. First try bottle. If he doesn't take it after 15 minutes, make oatmeal. Two tablespoons of oatmeal. Make thin with breast milk. Can heat for 5 to 10 seconds. Again, very specific directions on what she wants done and how she wants Callan cared for, [01:53:51] Speaker 3: correct? [01:53:52] Speaker 4: Yeah. And throughout this notebook, it's more of the same, correct? Or have you even seen that? I haven't seen it. [01:53:58] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:53:59] Speaker 4: I have nothing further, thank you. [01:54:08] Speaker 2: Which nanny was that? [01:54:10] Speaker 3: That would have been Elaine Rossi. [01:54:13] Speaker 2: And Elaine Rossi, how long was she the nanny for you guys? [01:54:16] Speaker 3: A month or two, yeah, probably two months. [01:54:19] Speaker 2: And then she just needed more hours and moved on and Lindsay was home so. [01:54:24] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think she preferred more hours. We couldn't really give it to her and Lindsay was home anyway so. [01:54:32] Speaker 2: And as far as the records are concerned, it's fair to say that Lindsay as a concerned mother would give instructions to people that would be taking care of her infant? [01:54:41] Speaker 3: Yeah, I would have done the same. [01:54:43] Speaker 2: A lot of discussion. A lot of discussion about these prescriptions and scripts from the different doctors. And one of the things you referenced was that you believed that she was on trazodone. And if I suggest to you that there was a doctor, Isad Parayarara, Kayvon, on November 16th of '22 that prescribed 50 milligrams of trazodone while she was on buspirone and floxetine. Does that refresh your memory that in November she was prescribed 50 grams of trazodone? [01:55:15] Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember trazodone being like a part of the medication plan for a while. [01:55:21] Speaker 2: And one of the things that you did as we talked about is you went to CVS and you got a list of all the drugs, right? Right. And if I suggest to you sir that this is just an easy reference with different colors for different doctors of exactly what the CVS provided. Does that appear to be fair and accurate? [01:55:39] Speaker 3: Yeah. [01:55:40] Speaker ?: Yep. [01:55:41] Speaker 5: Can I see which one that is, please? No objection. [01:55:44] Speaker 1: Okay, that may be admitted. [01:55:46] Speaker 2: That's all I have, sir, thank you. [01:55:49] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:55:52] Speaker 1: All right. Thank you, sir. You may step down. Thank you. Councilor, could I see you?