About this transcript: This is a full AI-generated transcript of Nancy Brophy murder trial: Day 22, morning session — Live stream from KGW News, published October 12, 2026. The transcript contains 23,151 words with timestamps and was generated using Whisper AI.
"Thank you. Thank you. I want to do that. So, with that, though, anything before we bring the jury out? Your Honor, I would, counsel has two Glocks sitting on counsel table, which I anticipate plans to use during the cross-examination of my client. I would ask for a 104 hearing with respect to that..."
[00:00:00] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:01:00] Speaker 1: I want to do that. So, with that, though, anything before we bring the jury out?
[00:01:29] Speaker 2: Your Honor, I would, counsel has two Glocks sitting on counsel table, which I anticipate plans to use during the cross-examination of my client. I would ask for a 104 hearing with respect to that particular demonstration, because I have some strong concerns regarding the extreme prejudice that would come from him asking my client to handle a Glock in the courtroom.
[00:01:52] Speaker 1: I would never do that. I would never do that. All right. If he's not going to ask your client to handle the Glock, do you still have issues?
[00:02:04] Speaker 2: And not touch it or anything? I'm mostly just worried about the optics of her having to handle it.
[00:02:09] Speaker 1: Okay. All right. So, you're not asking her to touch the gun or are you? You've got to be highly improper. Okay. I just, you know, I don't know. I don't know what's coming. I'm just trying to understand. All right. Let's go ahead and, well, anything else from either side?
[00:02:27] Speaker 3: I don't know if this is the right time, Your Honor, but I do feel that maybe just bringing it up now, you had asked us about timing and we need to ask the jury or talk to the jury about possibly extending. I do feel like based on the fact that defense is not done with their case yet, it's Tuesday, I anticipate it's probably going to go most of the day, if not all day. I believe our rebuttal case is probably limited to two days or less. That would take us to the end of the day on Thursday if all, everything goes well.
[00:03:03] Speaker 1: Sure.
[00:03:03] Speaker 3: Which would mean, I think, instructions and probably closing on Friday. One, I think we're going to probably definitely be using Friday at this point. And then two would be, that means the jury's not even going to get this case until probably Friday afternoon. I'm assuming that they probably would need to be told that, you know, depending on deliberations, of course. But given the amount of evidence in this case and the time, how long this case has taken, I think it's very reasonable to think that their deliberations are probably easily going to go into next week. Sure. And if they're not expecting that, maybe it's.
[00:03:38] Speaker 1: And let me also say, that doesn't even take into consideration, I don't think, a possible surrebuttal, right?
[00:03:43] Speaker 3: Well, yes, I wasn't even thinking that when I was speaking right now. So, yes, I think if there's going to be a surrebuttal, that that took place on Friday, there's a really good chance we don't even get to closing. Okay. So, I think at this point, it's probably safe to say where they should at least be warned.
[00:04:00] Speaker 1: Right, I think I'm assuming defense agrees with that as far as the timing goes.
[00:04:06] Speaker 4: We do. You know, it would be helpful, I think, to find out whether that's going to cause a huge problem for any of the jurors. If it is, we could try to be creative, but given the time pressures that we were describing to the court on Friday, if we just were able to say we're going to do the closing on Monday, that would be absolutely fine with us. If it's okay with the jurors, that would make a certain amount of sense. I do think that we're going to have close to a full day of surrebuttal if Ms. Jacobs testifies, and it sounds like she's still on track to do that. If she doesn't testify, then it's much more realistic to think that we finished this week.
[00:04:42] Speaker 1: Sure.
[00:04:42] Speaker 4: Right.
[00:04:43] Speaker 1: So, I think what I'll tell them, I don't want to say closing arguments will be this day, or they will be some other day, since there's still a lot that can happen. I think what I will do is indicate to them, in talking with the attorneys, we don't know precisely when we'll be at the point where they're going to make closing arguments, and you'll get instructions, but it's possible that could be Friday or even Monday of next week, and then there would be time for you to deliberate, which means, in short, the trial will not be done by the 20th, very likely. I'll ask them maybe not to bring up concerns this morning, but if they have concerns, to let Ms. Liu know about them so that we can address them if they have them.
[00:05:32] Speaker 4: Right, I mean, we do feel strongly about not wanting to lose any of the jurors.
[00:05:36] Speaker 1: Sure, sure. So, go ahead. I'm sorry, Ms. Wynmeyer, would they be able to cut you off?
[00:05:40] Speaker 4: No, I just, I mean, if the feedback that Ms. Liu received from the jurors is that four of them said, hey, we're planning to leave for Memorial Day weekend plans on Wednesday, this is a huge problem, then I would request that we have some sort of brainstorming, you know, here to try to figure out a way to speed this up a little bit more, because we don't want to lose jurors, but if Ms. Jacobs testifies, I do think the rebuttal that we have lined up is likely to take close to a day.
[00:06:10] Speaker 1: All right, and I will tell the sides, you know, fairly easy ways to speed things up a bit or to allow more time for trial is to maybe start a half hour earlier, start at 8:30, maybe take just an hour for lunch. There are things we can do to sort of allow for more time in the day, so I don't know that we need to do that today yet, but I would ask the sides to think about it and see what options they feel would be the best along those lines. But let's go ahead then and bring in the jury, and I'll start by talking to them a little about that.
[00:06:52] Speaker 5: Okay, so I'm going to go ahead and go off record, and I will mute Lebex.
[00:07:22] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Please be seated. I wanted to mention some things to the jury, and not asking for any kind of response right now. but just something to think about. I'm sure some of you have been wondering whether or not it's going to be going to be the case. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right.
[00:11:12] Speaker 1: Please be seated. I wanted to mention some things to the jury, and not asking for any kind of response right now, but just something to think about. I'm sure some of you have been wondering whether or not we're going to conclude on Friday the 20th, as we told you we would. And I think the answer to that is, as I've said many times, trials are somewhat inherently unpredictable. But the best thoughts we have on it right now is that you may not hear closing arguments until Friday, possibly even Monday. There are some ways that we can try to extend the hours of the day to get more information to you, such as starting at 8:30 as opposed to 9:00, or only taking an hour for lunch rather than an hour and a half. We haven't decided what we're going to do, but what I'm going to ask you to do is, if you have concerns either about coming earlier or having a shorter lunch or perhaps coming in part of next week, I'm going to have you write down your concerns along with which juror number you are and provide them to Ms. Lu. Please don't try to talk to her about it in the hallway. It's just not realistic that she can process everybody's concerns and give you any kind of real answer. It's something that we'll have to have you write out so that we can figure out what we're going to do. I realize for some of you this may be a big inconvenience and for others it may not be as big a inconvenience. It's hard to know, but I did want to give you that heads up now. I will say, certainly you can anticipate that we'll be in here on Friday, the first Friday that we'll actually be in the courtroom. So with that, Mrs. Brophy, let's have you retake the stand.
[00:13:13] Speaker ?: Did that work? Okay.
[00:13:14] Speaker 1: And you're still under oath, so we won't have you retake the oath. We'll just have you have a seat. And remove your at your mask when you're ready. And then we'll continue with Mr. Overstreet's cross-examination. Thank you, Judge.
[00:13:42] Speaker 3: Ms. Brophy, I want to start -- can you hear me okay? I can.
[00:13:45] Speaker 6: Okay.
[00:13:46] Speaker 3: I want to start just clarifying something from yesterday. Okay. That I believe you testified to. You said when you got downtown later that morning, June 2nd, that you kind of figured what was going on based on how people were reacting around you. But is it -- it is true that nobody actually told you that it was Dan that had been killed until Detective Posey, correct? Yes.
[00:14:16] Speaker 6: Okay.
[00:14:17] Speaker 3: And that was during that interview? Yes.
[00:14:20] Speaker 6: Okay.
[00:14:21] Speaker 3: But you stated that Karen called you before you went into that interview. Yes. Dan's mother, Karen. Yes. And that you told her that it was Dan and that he was dead.
[00:14:34] Speaker 6: Yes.
[00:14:35] Speaker 3: Based on the fact that you thought that Dan had been killed.
[00:14:42] Speaker 6: It was more than think.
[00:14:45] Speaker 3: But you hadn't been told?
[00:14:47] Speaker 6: I had not been told. But I had not heard from him. All of his friends avoided looking at me. And the police officers knew who I was before I got there. And one police officer hugged me. This is not good news I'm going to hear.
[00:15:02] Speaker 3: What if you were wrong?
[00:15:04] Speaker 6: Then I would have called Karen and said, happy days. I was wrong. And Karen and I would have celebrated and we would have laughed. And we would have had family jokes about this for 20 years. And it would have been much, much better than it turned out. Okay.
[00:15:20] Speaker 3: Stated you bought this ghost gun build kit and you realized you couldn't put it together.
[00:15:27] Speaker ?: No.
[00:15:28] Speaker 6: I realized it was more intricate. I didn't realize they couldn't put it together. It was more intricate than I thought it would be. Okay.
[00:15:35] Speaker 3: Based on what?
[00:15:36] Speaker 6: Based upon the fact that it was supposed to be a few parts. And I thought it was a few too many parts.
[00:15:42] Speaker 3: What steps did you take to actually try to build it?
[00:15:44] Speaker 6: I didn't take any because I wasn't ready to write this story yet.
[00:15:49] Speaker 3: You decided to write that story months prior. Yes. Um, but you weren't ready to start writing it. That's right. So what was the need to buy the gun at that point? I was celebrating.
[00:16:01] Speaker 6: It was Christmas. Right.
[00:16:03] Speaker 3: But what was the need to buy the gun? If you weren't writing the story yet?
[00:16:15] Speaker 6: Mr. Overstreet. We have had testimony upon testimony upon testimony about the fact Dan was a collector. Dan didn't wasn't a collector by himself. I had my little piles of stuff, you know, uh, what I found. What I have found in life is if you see something you want it, you can afford it. Buy it now because circling back for it. It may or may not be there.
[00:16:36] Speaker 3: And so now you're a gun collector?
[00:16:39] Speaker 6: No. Now I have a piece of writing information research.
[00:16:49] Speaker 3: Did you, you said you didn't take any steps to try to build this gun? I did not. And I want to show you what's marked the state's exhibit 25. Do you, first of all, do you recognize this?
[00:17:05] Speaker 6: Yes.
[00:17:08] Speaker 3: Do you recognize all the parts in here?
[00:17:10] Speaker 6: Well, you're further away than I would say, but certainly it looks like all the parts are there.
[00:17:14] Speaker 3: Is this what it looked like when you got it? Yes. Approximately. Approximately. Okay. And you saw this part in the kit?
[00:17:23] Speaker ?: I did.
[00:17:24] Speaker 7: Was there anything you needed to do to this to make it functional?
[00:17:31] Speaker 6: I haven't gotten that deep into this gun. I'm not sure how to answer that question because the answer is, I don't know.
[00:17:37] Speaker 3: Was there anything in the instructions or anything you saw online that made you think that you needed to manipulate this part?
[00:17:46] Speaker 6: Once again, I go back to, I don't know, because there are a slew of parts. You know, the only thing I can attribute it to is when you buy an Ikea thing, there are pieces that come fairly close together. And that isn't where you celebrate. You celebrate the little bags of all, you don't celebrate the little bag. Let me say this to this again where it makes sense. You're delighted to see pieces more or less together. All the little parts, you're less delighted to see.
[00:18:14] Speaker 7: And is this why you never even opened these little baggies?
[00:18:20] Speaker 6: I wasn't ready to start yet. I didn't want them misplaced.
[00:18:23] Speaker 3: Okay. No attempts to try to build it. You didn't do any further research because you weren't ready to write this story?
[00:18:31] Speaker 6: That's right.
[00:18:32] Speaker ?: Thank you.
[00:18:44] Speaker 3: Your defense attorney stated an opening that you knew or that you thought you knew that Nathaniel had previously done a build kit. Yes. You knew that or thought that at least.
[00:19:01] Speaker 6: I thought he had said that and I believed him.
[00:19:05] Speaker 3: When you had this story to do a gun build kit and you actually, when purchased a gun build kit, you didn't ever talk to Nathaniel about his experience with a build kit?
[00:19:15] Speaker 6: No. And that wouldn't have been where I would have gone with that. Where I would have gone first would be to my father-in-law, Jack, who I knew had every equipment in the world and could help you drill out the parts that needed to be drilled out. Okay.
[00:19:27] Speaker 3: But you didn't do that either?
[00:19:28] Speaker 6: No, because I wasn't ready to start yet.
[00:19:30] Speaker 3: And how did you know you needed a drill press?
[00:19:33] Speaker 6: Because it was on one of the videos.
[00:19:35] Speaker 3: One of the videos? Uh-huh.
[00:19:37] Speaker 6: How many did you watch?
[00:19:38] Speaker 3: I don't know. How many videos if you weren't writing the story yet?
[00:19:41] Speaker 6: I was watching videos to see how to put it together.
[00:19:44] Speaker 3: But I thought you weren't ready to put it together.
[00:19:46] Speaker 6: I'm not ready to put it together. But that doesn't mean I'm not researching what I have to do to get it ready to get put together.
[00:19:52] Speaker 3: Okay, so now you're doing research online.
[00:19:56] Speaker 6: We have stated previously, and I am not backing down from that, that I investigated, investigated, investigated. One of my friends has a sign over her desk that says only James Michener gets to use all his research. You research everything to maybe come up with six sentences in a book that will make the book more realistic. So yeah, I do tons of research.
[00:20:19] Speaker 3: You do a lot of research.
[00:20:20] Speaker 6: I do.
[00:20:21] Speaker 3: So I'm just having a hard time having that make sense with what you said about planning and preparing.
[00:20:33] Speaker 6: Dan was a better planner than I was. Hang on.
[00:20:36] Speaker 3: Let me ask you a question.
[00:20:37] Speaker 6: I'm so sorry.
[00:20:38] Speaker 3: You said yesterday that you're not a planner.
[00:20:45] Speaker 6: Did you say that? I did say that. But let me put a caveat on that. Please. I am not a planner in the initial stages the way Dan was. But you know, I rarely go into anything willy nilly. And I rarely do anything that I don't complete.
[00:21:07] Speaker 3: States Exhibit 82 showed that you were doing some of your research maybe on February 1st. You were searching for gun shops at that time.
[00:21:18] Speaker 6: I'm not sure what State Exhibit 82 is.
[00:21:21] Speaker 3: Okay. It was your internet, some of your internet history. Okay. It was showed to you yesterday by your council and asked to you by your council about February 1st and you're searching for gun shops in Portland. What were you searching for? That was different.
[00:21:38] Speaker 6: I wasn't researching that when I'm looking for gun shops in Portland. It was not for gun pieces at this point. It's on the whole different conversation. That's writing. And that's a little cubicle in and of itself in my life. What Dan and I were talking about was did we need to own a gun at this point? And while we had both been adamant anti gun people for a long time, the last three or four years had changed how we felt about that. And we were discussing it and had been discussing it for well over a year.
[00:22:10] Speaker 3: So as what was described yesterday as a left leaning individual. Yes. Your response to gun violence in the country was to buy a gun.
[00:22:19] Speaker 6: In 2017, one of the, uh, memes, uh, of the left was, uh, if we continue to be anti guns, what's that mean that everybody in the country who will own a gun, but the people on the left. And it was a serious concern. Lots and lots and lots of people were changing their ideas about gun ownership because the country had become so diversified.
[00:22:48] Speaker 3: Well, Miss Brophy, I appreciate a meme as well and what other people's opinions might be, but I'm asking your position as somebody who was so anti gun. So anti gun. In fact, that your law enforcement husband wasn't allowed to have a gun in the house. No. Hang on. Sorry. So anti gun. But your response to gun violence increasing in this country was to buy a gun yourself. Yes or no? Yes.
[00:23:11] Speaker ?: With a caveat.
[00:23:14] Speaker 3: At what point from the time you received this ghost gun to June 2nd, did you decide that you were not going to use it?
[00:23:42] Speaker 6: We're speaking now of the gun that we bought at the gun show. No. Oh, all right. Ask me the question again, please.
[00:23:48] Speaker 3: This ghost gun that I just showed you.
[00:23:50] Speaker ?: Right.
[00:23:51] Speaker 3: At what point did you decide you were not going to use it?
[00:23:54] Speaker 6: I never decided I was not going to use it.
[00:23:56] Speaker 3: Is that why you kept it?
[00:23:57] Speaker 6: I kept it because eventually I was going to put it together and write the story. Okay.
[00:24:02] Speaker 3: And you decided the way to keep it would be to put it in a box with scarves and purses and store it in storage.
[00:24:11] Speaker 6: No. What I decided was to store it away until I reached the point that I would do it. But I was trying to get moved at that point. Certainly there was, you know, I didn't see another big option there. And I even marked the box because at any point I expected the police got to come back to me and say things like, does Dan have a computer? Do you all have a computer? Can we look at any of this? Do you all have anything else? So I marked it so I could find it again. That was for the police benefit. That wasn't for mine. Oh. Oh. I marked the box that I packed that it had a gun kit in it because I thought sooner or later the police are going to come back to me and the police never once talked to me after that.
[00:24:58] Speaker 3: Did you literally just say that was for the police's benefit?
[00:25:02] Speaker 6: That was literally what I said. I marked the box for the police's benefit so that I could find it again when the police came back. For what? Well, I sort of thought that if the police didn't find something they would want to come back and re-interview and I would be able to show them things. I thought the fact that all they had was Stan's phone and not a computer from us might not, they may have reached a dead end and said, Mrs. Brophy, is there anything you can give us that would help? Any electronic equipment? Anything else? So I was kind of in my mind making a list. At that point, silly me, since I believed I didn't kill my husband, I didn't think I was a serious suspect. Despite you telling people that you were. I told people I was the suspect because it's always the wife. Right.
[00:25:52] Speaker 3: So you lost me there for a minute. Let's circle back. You said something about computers. Right. I didn't ask anything about computers. I'm asking about a gun.
[00:26:03] Speaker 6: You're asking why I was marking things for the police.
[00:26:07] Speaker 3: I did not ask you that.
[00:26:10] Speaker 6: Okay.
[00:26:11] Speaker 3: I think maybe that's where I got a little lost. Okay. You said that you marked that box for the police benefit.
[00:26:18] Speaker 5: Uh-huh.
[00:26:19] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:26:20] Speaker 3: So you thought that was important to the police that they might want this gun kit.
[00:26:25] Speaker 6: I had a hard time believing that I would be interviewed by the police for 45 minutes. We would have a brief conversation on the telephone and I would never hear from them again until the case was solved. I thought for sure the police would come back and say, is there anything else you've got that could help us? And that would have included the gun kit.
[00:26:52] Speaker 3: Let's make this easier. What is the relevance of this gun kit to the police?
[00:26:56] Speaker 6: None. But we had it. You know, I figured they'd ask for it sooner or later.
[00:27:01] Speaker 3: Why would the police ask you for a gun kit that they don't know that you own? I'm failing to understand what your rationale was for making this available to the police. You think it's so important to them that at some point they're going to come asking for it. But you don't call them.
[00:27:21] Speaker 6: I figured the police were doing the police job the way the police did it that they probably did not need. I will be the first to tell you I got my detective's license on TV and I can guarantee you I had ideas on how this case should have gone. But I sort of figured the police had more experience and they were the ones in charge.
[00:27:40] Speaker 3: Do you think you have relevant evidence to a murder investigation and you don't think you should mention it to the police?
[00:27:49] Speaker 6: How does a gun kit, even though I marked it, how is a gun kit relative evidence? I'm asking you. I'm asking you because I don't think it is because it's never been put together. Then why would you mark it for the police? Because I figured the police would come back and want to know.
[00:28:09] Speaker 3: What else did you think was relevant to the police investigation that you marked and did not share with them?
[00:28:17] Speaker 6: I thought they would eventually want to know about the computers. I thought they would eventually want to go through the computers and see what they could find, if anything, that would help them.
[00:28:27] Speaker 3: And did you give them a computer that belonged to Dan?
[00:28:30] Speaker 6: No, we had a computer. They never asked for it. But in my mind, I knew they would eventually if they didn't solve the case by somebody coming in and confessing, they would eventually come back and say, can we see your computer? My computers weren't packed because I thought they were relevant to the police if the police wanted to go in that direction.
[00:28:50] Speaker 3: Well, that's not exactly true, right? I mean, you had a computer in storage.
[00:28:55] Speaker 6: No, I had a computer in a box in one room and a computer by the bed in another room. That's not in storage.
[00:29:03] Speaker 3: Right, one in a box in your room. What about the one that was in the storage unit? There was not a computer in the storage. So there wasn't a laptop in the storage unit? There was not. Okay.
[00:29:11] Speaker 6: What your testimony, what your guys' testimony was, they found the computer in a bedroom and they found the computer in a box in the other room. In what had been the office.
[00:29:24] Speaker 3: And you would agree then that the stuff that was found on the computer that has been shown here in court was on the computer that was packed away in a box.
[00:29:36] Speaker 6: I think that's why they did it. But, you know, they were the two computers.
[00:29:41] Speaker 3: Why did you get a new computer in March of 2018?
[00:29:44] Speaker 6: When you open the computer, the old computer, you can't read the screen because it's become lines across it.
[00:29:51] Speaker 3: So you did all your research of all these guns on one computer, then packed that away and put it in a box in the closet and then you got a new computer. Is that right?
[00:29:58] Speaker 6: I get a new computer every year. I take a computer with me when I go out to the fields. I beat a computer up. I buy a fairly inexpensive computer because I know I'm replacing it the next year.
[00:30:08] Speaker 3: And you thought the police would want that, but you didn't give it to them.
[00:30:13] Speaker 6: The police never contacted me again. I assumed that they were doing their job and didn't want my interference.
[00:30:20] Speaker 3: So you told your friends in this car ride, that was in February, right?
[00:30:26] Speaker 6: To one of them, yes.
[00:30:28] Speaker 3: The one where you're telling Darla Lukenbaugh about the fact that you bought this gun kit? Yes. And at that point you had already bought states exhibit 26, the full gun from the gun show, correct?
[00:30:42] Speaker 6: If I hadn't bought it, I was close to buying it. I'm not sure of the exact date of the car ride in February.
[00:30:50] Speaker 3: In fact, you had not only bought this gun during that car ride, but you were actively bidding on the slide and barrel. Isn't that right? Yes, probably.
[00:30:59] Speaker 6: If it was after the 15th of February that we did this.
[00:31:03] Speaker 3: And we'll get to the slide and barrel in a minute, but your testimony and what your defense has asserted in their opening statements was that you bought that slide and barrel for writing. That's true. But you didn't tell your friends about the slide and barrel.
[00:31:16] Speaker 6: I was more on the story than I was on the gun kit. Right.
[00:31:20] Speaker 3: You would agree that you never told law enforcement that you owned this ghost gun kit?
[00:31:32] Speaker 6: No, because this ghost gun kit, despite the fact you refer to it as a weapon on a regular basis. It's not a weapon unless I hit somebody over the head with the case. There's nothing about that gun kit. That's a gun. Except that if you spend a few hours and put it together, it could be a gun. But I've got eggs and flour in my pantry and that's not an omelet either until you put it together.
[00:31:55] Speaker 3: And you would agree that you also never told the police about the slide and barrel that you purchased on eBay on eBay.
[00:32:05] Speaker 6: Mr. Overstreet, when I talked to the police, when I talked to police in June, they asked me specific questions. My husband had just died. The fact that I was coherent at all is a miracle. The fact that they never came back to me after that for a follow up interview, I think thought was shocking. You know, I thought this was on the police. This wasn't on me. The police said, we're handling this. You just go home and rest. You know, you go home and take it one day at a time, you know, and they never contacted me again, except for the things that I, they asked people, which was Dan's schedule. I got that to them and I was having trouble with their email, but I did what I was asked to do.
[00:32:48] Speaker 3: Are you declining to answer my question?
[00:32:50] Speaker 6: Perhaps not. What was your question?
[00:32:52] Speaker 3: That was a lengthy answer for not remembering my question.
[00:32:55] Speaker 6: Well, I go off on tangents.
[00:32:57] Speaker 3: So I asked you, is it true that you did not tell the police about the slide and barrel? It is true.
[00:33:03] Speaker 6: I did not tell the police about the slide and barrel.
[00:33:05] Speaker 3: The slide and barrel that would fit perfectly on the gun show gun that you purchased.
[00:33:09] Speaker 6: The slide and barrel that I was using for research for my writing. I did not tell them about that. You can answer that question.
[00:33:15] Speaker 3: I did.
[00:33:16] Speaker 8: I said, I did not tell them. Would you agree that it fit on the gun that you bought from the gun?
[00:33:22] Speaker 3: It was the same thing.
[00:33:23] Speaker 6: It could have been in change, interchanged. Yes.
[00:33:27] Speaker 3: So although you owned, well, we'll get to that in just a second. When exactly did you put the ghost gun in storage?
[00:33:36] Speaker 6: Somewhere between June 2nd and September 5th when I was arrested.
[00:33:42] Speaker ?: I have no idea. How big was your property?
[00:33:43] Speaker 6: We had half an acre. Half an acre.
[00:33:45] Speaker ?: You're sure of that?
[00:33:46] Speaker 3: I'm positive of that. That's some conflicting testimony as you might remember.
[00:33:48] Speaker 6: Yes.
[00:33:49] Speaker 3: Yes.
[00:33:50] Speaker 6: But it was testimony from a woman who lived in an apartment who thought any amount of lawn was going to be huge. So you had a half an acre.
[00:34:05] Speaker 3: Yes. And it's true that that lot behind your house was not five acres, right? It was actually just about an acre.
[00:34:11] Speaker 6: It could have been slightly larger. I think I've seen the plot than it was something like 1.3, but that's been a long time ago and I could be wrong.
[00:34:20] Speaker 3: You talked about the interview with the police and how you just found out your husband died and it's very hard to remember everything that you talked about in there. But you do recall that you didn't have any trouble telling them about the firearm that you had purchased at the gun show, correct? In fact, you told them the whole story about why and how you purchased the gun.
[00:34:39] Speaker 6: Detective Merrill said, does Dan have any guns? Dan owns half a block. I told him about the full block. And I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, although I thought listening to that sentence, it came out study, which wasn't really the way I wanted it to come out. But what I will tell you is he asked me. I answered him the best way I knew how.
[00:35:00] Speaker 3: Why didn't you just say, yes, we have a gun.
[00:35:03] Speaker 6: I was trying to be helpful to the police at this point. So they would know what was going on. You know, at this point, I thought they were going to find my husband's killer. I didn't think they were going to say, let's look at the one person who didn't kill him.
[00:35:19] Speaker 3: But instead of just answering, yes, we have a gun and it's at home. You actually made sure to give them a full story as to how and why you purchased that gun.
[00:35:28] Speaker 6: Mr. Overstreet, you are having trouble keeping me quiet now because I tell stories as I'm talking to you. Do you think I was less than that with the police when I'm upset? This is how I talk. I tell full stories to illustrate what I'm saying.
[00:35:42] Speaker 3: Even though you were just informed of your husband's murder?
[00:35:44] Speaker 6: Well, apparently it didn't make me quieter. It just made me more upset.
[00:35:48] Speaker 3: And you paid cash for that gun?
[00:35:50] Speaker 6: Yes, we did.
[00:35:52] Speaker 3: Your attorney made a big deal out of you purchasing things with your debit card or credit card. Right. Why would you pay cash at the gun show?
[00:36:04] Speaker 6: Well, actually that was Stan's idea. And when we talked about it and what have you, he said, here's 400 in cash. You get cash from your thing. So I went on Dan's idea on that.
[00:36:15] Speaker 3: Didn't you actually withdraw the $400?
[00:36:17] Speaker 6: I withdrew the $400, but he gave me 400 in addition and he gave me cash. Okay.
[00:36:26] Speaker 3: I don't know that I quite understand that. Didn't you withdraw $400 from your On Point account?
[00:36:30] Speaker 6: After he'd given me the first 400.
[00:36:32] Speaker 3: How did he give you 400? In cash. Where did that come from?
[00:36:36] Speaker 6: Dan has cash at the house. Dan operates a cash business. You know, he sells eggs. He sells crap on the cart. He sells, um, he operates with a lot of cash. Okay.
[00:36:50] Speaker 3: So he gave you, and we'll talk about that too. Um, so he gives you $400. Mm-hmm. You then go to On Point and withdraw $400. Mm-hmm. So you have $800 cash. I do. What did you do with the remaining 300?
[00:37:03] Speaker 6: Well, it wasn't a remaining 300. Uh, as they were taking the gun apart to show me how it worked. They sold me, uh, but I didn't have a receipt on this. They showed, sold me, uh, some oil that I would, they thought I was going to need. And in addition, I had bought a book on Glocks in general. So, uh, what did I do with the probably 200 plus, but not much plus? Uh, I don't know. Maybe I gave Mark back to Dan. That was a long time ago. It wasn't that essential to me. I have no memory of what I did with it.
[00:37:41] Speaker 3: You didn't put it back in your bank account?
[00:37:44] Speaker 6: Maybe Dan and I went out to dinner. Who knows? You know, but I could have just as easily given it back to Dan. Okay.
[00:37:52] Speaker 3: You told, uh, detectives, and I believe you testified to this as well, that you got home with that gun.
[00:38:03] Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:04] Speaker 3: And, uh, looked at it. Mm-hmm. Thought it was heavy, ugly. Some other maybe descriptive terms you used. I'm not quite sure right now. Um, but you realized you didn't want it. You and Dan both realized you didn't want it.
[00:38:22] Speaker 6: I think we were both ambivalent about it still. This didn't really solve the problem, but I think we went back and forth for months before we bought it and for weeks after we bought it.
[00:38:32] Speaker 3: Okay, so you didn't decide you didn't want it that day.
[00:38:35] Speaker 6: That's right.
[00:38:36] Speaker 3: Got it home. You took it. Did you handle it?
[00:38:39] Speaker 6: Oh, sure. We both did.
[00:38:41] Speaker 3: What did you do to handle it?
[00:38:43] Speaker 6: Well, you know, we pulled it out and we looked at it. And, I mean, how would I have known it was heavy if I hadn't held it? Uh, you know. Uh, and, you know, somebody testified earlier that there were two little dark hairs that were in the slide. In our house, who had two little short dark hairs was not me. You know, that would have been Dan. Uh, he handled it. Um.
[00:39:11] Speaker 3: Did you see him handle it?
[00:39:12] Speaker 6: Yeah, it was right there.
[00:39:13] Speaker 3: And what did he do with it?
[00:39:14] Speaker 6: He looked at it. He picked it up. He messed with it. He pointed it toward the backyard. So, you know, even though it had no bullets in it. Uh, and, um, you know, I don't recall. We had a great conversation about it, but he definitely handled it.
[00:39:29] Speaker 3: Did you ever remove the side and barrel?
[00:39:31] Speaker 6: Oh, sure, I played with it.
[00:39:33] Speaker 3: Oh, you did remove the side and barrel?
[00:39:35] Speaker 6: Sure. Oh. I didn't think that was a secret.
[00:39:39] Speaker 3: Well, you didn't tell the police that.
[00:39:41] Speaker 6: The police didn't ask me whether I'd remove the side and barrel.
[00:39:45] Speaker 3: You told the police that you got it home and that you realized how much you didn't want it and you put it away and never touched it again. Do you remember that?
[00:39:53] Speaker 6: I could have said that, but I was upset at the time. So, that was probably an exaggeration. Uh, I handled the gun, you know, I may not have loved it, but I was still curious about it. And keep in mind, I'm writing a story about a gun and I need to research guns so I can have it. But yes, I didn't, you know, I touched the gun. Yeah.
[00:40:15] Speaker 3: And so your testimony today, after hearing all the testimony and seeing all the evidence on the screen, your testimony today is that you have removed that side and barrel.
[00:40:21] Speaker 6: I have.
[00:40:22] Speaker 3: So you know how to do it. Yeah. It's not that hard, right?
[00:40:25] Speaker 6: Oh, it's terribly hard. I broke two nails doing it. Don't believe them when they say it's not that hard. You can't just whip it off the way they do it. You have to hold the gun a certain way. You have to pull it back. I broke two nails pulling it back. And I thought this isn't any fun. And, uh, you would be shocked at how hard it is to do. You know, yeah, if you've handled guns all your life, I'm sure it's a piece of cake. But I can tell you, for me, it was not.
[00:40:50] Speaker 3: Okay. So you remove the side and barrel.
[00:40:52] Speaker 6: Yes.
[00:40:53] Speaker 3: You can see that it's nearly identical to the ghost gun side and barrel, correct?
[00:40:59] Speaker 6: I'd have to look at both of them now, but I would say yes. Let's do that. Oh, yeah, we can look at that. Okay.
[00:41:10] Speaker 3: I would agree that they look identical, but they obviously are not.
[00:41:24] Speaker 6: One of them is quite a bit longer than the other one.
[00:41:39] Speaker 3: A bit longer.
[00:41:40] Speaker 6: Which makes them not identical. When you're circling the little things on which find five things in this picture that aren't identical, you would circle them.
[00:41:52] Speaker 3: Right. This one is slightly shorter. Yes. Block 19 ghost gun. What else is not identical about this gun?
[00:42:02] Speaker 6: Well, one of them obviously has a zip tie on it, but they are similar is what I would say, but they are not identical. Can you see the back?
[00:42:12] Speaker 7: Yes.
[00:42:13] Speaker 6: I agree they're similar. Can you see the top? I agree they're similar. I'm not going to point this at you, but can you see the barrel?
[00:42:17] Speaker 7: I can.
[00:42:18] Speaker 6: Okay. Anything about this side?
[00:42:20] Speaker 7: That is not exactly the same.
[00:42:21] Speaker 6: I would ask you this as you're demonstrating this. Does it fit on the other gun? No. Does that make it not identical? Yes.
[00:42:41] Speaker 7: You knew it didn't fit, right?
[00:42:42] Speaker 6: I knew it didn't fit because I knew that I had a book on Glocks and in order for a Glock to work it had to work the right way.
[00:42:51] Speaker 3: You knew it didn't fit and then you bought a sliding barrel that would fit the gun show gun, right?
[00:42:56] Speaker 6: No, I bought a sliding barrel that was the same one. I could have easily bought one that fit the ghost gun, but I did not. I bought this one.
[00:43:06] Speaker 3: Why would you buy another sliding barrel to fit the ghost gun when you couldn't build it? You already own it. You own this piece right here. You own this. Yes. So why would you buy another one?
[00:43:17] Speaker 6: You know, if a trigger had been available, I would have bought a trigger. I'm telling you, I was fascinated with gun pieces at that point because I was writing a story on gun pieces and making it into a gun.
[00:43:29] Speaker 3: There's a trigger in this kit?
[00:43:31] Speaker 6: Yes, and I would have bought another one if I'd had it. I figured if I could construct them together the way the character would have, it would have worked fine.
[00:43:40] Speaker 3: But Ms. Brophy, you didn't buy other gun pieces. You bought a sliding barrel that would fit this gun. That's true. No other pieces did you buy? No.
[00:43:49] Speaker 6: But I wasn't finished shopping either.
[00:43:52] Speaker 3: You were worried. Your counsel said this. I don't know if you believe it or agree with it, but I'm going to ask you. You needed to buy that sliding barrel because you were worried about taking this gun apart? Yes.
[00:44:08] Speaker 6: Okay.
[00:44:09] Speaker 3: But you just testified that you took the sliding barrel off of it.
[00:44:12] Speaker 6: That's not taking the gun apart. We're talking about if we took the sliding barrel itself completely apart, could I put it back together and have a gun that wouldn't backfire on me and kill me? You know, and so the fact that when I said to Dan, I can take this gun, the real gun, not the kit-plated gun apart, and it'll help me do this. Dan said, no, no, no, no. I've seen you in action. That's a mistake. Let's keep it together. We may get to sell it.
[00:44:45] Speaker 3: I'm not talking about taking the entire gun apart.
[00:44:48] Speaker 6: Okay.
[00:44:49] Speaker 3: I'm talking about the sliding barrel.
[00:44:50] Speaker 6: Yes.
[00:44:51] Speaker 3: That's a critical piece of information. As you know now, if you didn't know before this trial, you know now the sliding barrel is at issue. Right?
[00:44:59] Speaker 6: Yes.
[00:45:00] Speaker 3: You keep talking about the gun and taking it apart and all that. I'm talking about the sliding barrel.
[00:45:04] Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:05] Speaker 3: You have a gun complete. Mm-hmm. Slide and barrel intact. You know how to remove it. In fact, you did. Mm-hmm. You can manipulate the sliding barrel separate and apart from the rest of the gun.
[00:45:18] Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:19] Speaker 3: But you chose to buy the exact same piece. Is that right?
[00:45:27] Speaker ?: Yes.
[00:45:28] Speaker 6: But I have a caveat on that too. Of course.
[00:45:32] Speaker 3: Go ahead.
[00:45:33] Speaker 6: The caveat I have on that was I wasn't thinking, hey, this would work that way. I was thinking because for me, the gun was the gun. The toy was the toy. The pieces were the toy.
[00:45:46] Speaker 3: I'm not talking about the ghost gun, Ms. Brophy.
[00:45:49] Speaker 6: We're talking about the difference between the slide and the barrel.
[00:45:54] Speaker 3: I'm not talking about the ghost gun. Okay. I thought when you said caveat that you're going to explain to us why in the world when you've already owned this exact piece, you would need to buy another one days later. Within days.
[00:46:14] Speaker 6: What I can tell you is it was for writing. It was not to, as you would have it, murder my husband.
[00:46:22] Speaker 3: Why isn't this for writing? What's the difference?
[00:46:25] Speaker 6: Are you tapping the ghost gun or you tapping the, uh, the full gun? That isn't for writing because that isn't the story.
[00:46:37] Speaker 2: Your Honor, at this point, if counsel is going to be aggressive, I would ask that he not have a gun. Explain to me what the difference is.
[00:46:44] Speaker 1: Okay. Hold on a sec. I'm going to allow him to hold the gun.
[00:46:48] Speaker 7: Explain to me what the difference is between this piece right here that I'm pointing to the slide barrel that you removed yourself and the one that you bought on eBay.
[00:46:58] Speaker 6: I thought we just went through that.
[00:47:00] Speaker 3: You're telling me you couldn't use this for writing.
[00:47:04] Speaker 6: No. That was the end piece. That was for protection. The other was for research.
[00:47:27] Speaker 3: So at this point you spent over a thousand dollars in guns and gun parts. Is that right? By the time you buy the eBay slide and barrel, you're upwards around $1,500. About. About. Your attorney seemed to indicate that you happened upon the eBay slide and barrel.
[00:47:52] Speaker 6: Yes.
[00:47:53] Speaker 3: Just a pop-up ad.
[00:47:55] Speaker 6: No, it wasn't a pop-up ad.
[00:47:56] Speaker 3: That's what she said.
[00:47:58] Speaker 6: Well, if that's what she said, then I probably said that to her at one point or another. But it wasn't something that the slide and barrel was a. Did you say that? Did you say that? Yeah. Sorry. I didn't happen upon it. At the point that I decided I wanted to do this, I tend to be impulsive and I bought it because I wanted it. Where is it?
[00:48:25] Speaker ?: I have no idea.
[00:48:25] Speaker 6: If you'd asked me on the day of my wrist, I would have told you that it was either in the house or it was either in storage. I haven't seen it for months and months and months and months and months.
[00:48:52] Speaker 3: So.
[00:48:53] Speaker 8: And you just bought it in February and got it at the very last day of February, right? February 28th. Could be. I don't know. I mean, I'm not looking at my numbers, notes. You didn't lose this gun. No. You didn't lose the gun kit.
[00:49:09] Speaker 6: The gun kit went to the police. The gun went to the police. I didn't have to worry about packing that.
[00:49:16] Speaker 3: Ms. Brophy, I'm talking about the time leading up to the murder. Oh, all right.
[00:49:20] Speaker 6: No, I knew where it was.
[00:49:22] Speaker 3: You knew where the ghost gun was?
[00:49:24] Speaker 6: It was on the floor of my closet.
[00:49:26] Speaker 3: You knew where that gun was?
[00:49:27] Speaker 6: Yes. And I would tell you that the slide was on the floor of my closet next to the ghost gun.
[00:49:33] Speaker 3: Sitting on the floor?
[00:49:34] Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:35] Speaker 3: Just like literally sitting on the floor?
[00:49:38] Speaker 6: Well, it wasn't in the middle. It was tucked next to, rather than behind, next to an armoire I had in the closet.
[00:49:48] Speaker 3: Okay. When's the last time you saw it?
[00:49:50] Speaker 6: That's what I was saying. I can't remember. I have no idea when the last time I saw it was. I know that I messed with it in February. I know I messed with it in March, but I can't remember seeing it after that.
[00:50:02] Speaker 3: Why didn't you make an attempt to locate it and mark it for the police like you did the ghost gun?
[00:50:14] Speaker 6: I stumbled across the ghost gun when I was packing. That's why I marked the box. In my mind, I had a list of things I thought the police might come back and ask me for, and I thought the ghost gun would be among them.
[00:50:25] Speaker 3: Do you see the irony in not being able to locate that and that being the allegation that that was the murder weapon?
[00:50:36] Speaker 6: You know, I see nothing ironic about this case at all. You're aware that the police searched your storage unit?
[00:50:49] Speaker 3: I am.
[00:50:50] Speaker 6: Your pods?
[00:50:51] Speaker 3: Yes.
[00:50:52] Speaker 6: Your house?
[00:50:53] Speaker 3: Yes. You're aware that they even opened up your appliances inside your house to search for guns?
[00:50:58] Speaker 6: I was not aware of that. Okay.
[00:51:00] Speaker 3: You would agree that you've previously written about hiding weapons inside appliances, correct? One of your books? Maybe, but I don't remember that.
[00:51:11] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:51:12] Speaker 3: Are you aware that they even opened up a wall to search for a gun? Yes.
[00:51:19] Speaker 6: They did it after the house went into eight months after they had gotten the search warrant. They went back with a new search warrant just before it closed.
[00:51:28] Speaker 3: So they did all that searching. Mm-hmm. Got the ghost gun. Mm-hmm. Couldn't find the sliding barrel from eBay.
[00:51:38] Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:40] Speaker 3: But you stored a lot of stuff in your niece's basement, didn't you? I did.
[00:51:46] Speaker 6: But the stuff I stored in my niece's basement happened after the police were finished with the house. That was everything that was at the end. So the police had either looked at it or they hadn't. Mm-hmm.
[00:51:59] Speaker 3: You didn't store anything anywhere else before your arrest?
[00:52:08] Speaker 8: No.
[00:52:09] Speaker 3: And you're sure that nothing went to your niece's house?
[00:52:13] Speaker 6: I'm positive nothing went to my niece's house. So, until after, wait, wait, let me back up just a minute because there's a fact here. Susan had left some clothes. For a while they had been at Sarah's house before Dan died. And I'm going to say maybe as long as a year before Dan died, I went and got all the boxes that Susan had left and put them in our storage building so that when Susan came, I was able to give those to her sister and she took them home. So, I have had things stored at Sarah's house in the past.
[00:52:51] Speaker 3: You know, like you just said, that the police were very interested in the sliding barrel. For me, but. Right.
[00:53:01] Speaker 6: I know that from the testimony and from the hearings we've had.
[00:53:05] Speaker 3: You have the discovery.
[00:53:07] Speaker 6: I have discovered here.
[00:53:08] Speaker 2: I have a matter for the court.
[00:53:10] Speaker 1: Let's say let's have the jury step out for just one minute.
[00:53:15] Speaker 6: I need to stay.
[00:53:29] Speaker ?: Yes. All right, different.
[00:53:55] Speaker 1: Seated. Go ahead, Miss Maxwell.
[00:54:01] Speaker 2: Yes, your honor. I am worried that we are headed in a direction where counsel is going to ask my client about what the police, what kind of evidence the police wanted and why after her arrest, she didn't produce a sliding barrel to the police. And I would make a fifth amendment argument against that. If we're going to go down that road about whether she didn't voluntarily produce evidence after her arrest, I have serious concerns about that and would make an objection.
[00:54:27] Speaker 1: I don't want to do it in front of the jury. Just to understand the objection, what type of evidence? We've heard testimony that she doesn't know what happened to the sliding barrel.
[00:54:35] Speaker 2: I think what counsel, the direction counsel went is you knew that the sliding barrel was important to the police. You knew that from reading the discovery, and I anticipate the next question is even after reading in the discovery that the police were very concerned about finding the sliding barrel, you did not produce it. Now, I know that she's already answered the question and the fact that she said, I have no idea where that our sliding barrel is. But, but at this point, if we're going to pursue a line of questioning about what evidence she must produce or where the jury should think she must produce post arrest, I think is wrong. And I think it violates her, her rights not to even have a jury make an adverse inference regarding the production of evidence.
[00:55:18] Speaker 1: Let me ask, what was the question, what was the line of questioning going to be? I'm going to ask her about why she didn't.
[00:55:26] Speaker 3: Well, I don't want to disclose the question, Your Honor. Okay. It's not that. I can tell you that.
[00:55:31] Speaker 1: Here's where I'm at. So she is testifying. She's not remaining silent. And she's already answered the question about what became of the slide and barrel. I'm not totally sure where the state is going with this line of questioning. So at this point, I'm overruling the objection. But Ms. Maxwell, depending on what the state asks, feel free to raise it again. But at this point, I think it's fair game to, to ask about what she knew. And I don't know if she knew or didn't know what the state's about to ask. Because I'm not quite sure what the state's going to ask.
[00:56:17] Speaker 3: And I will say, Your Honor, I'm not asking why she didn't give it to the police. She's already said she didn't know where it was. I already have that answer.
[00:56:26] Speaker 1: Are you asking questions about her refusing to produce other evidence? I mean, can you give me a general idea? I know you don't want her to hear the question in advance. I'm just trying to get an idea of the theme. It is not her refusal to produce evidence.
[00:56:46] Speaker 3: Okay.
[00:56:47] Speaker 1: It's not my line of action. All right. All right. Let's bring the jury back in.
[00:56:55] Speaker 5: We'll go ahead and take the jury. We'll go off her.
[00:57:25] Speaker ?: Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.
[00:59:55] Speaker 1: Please be seated. I overruled the objections, so Mr. Overstreet you can ask the next question.
[01:00:13] Speaker 3: Ms. Burpee, I'm going to come back to that in a minute. But I believe your answer was that you did have the discovery, you reviewed it.
[01:00:24] Speaker 6: Ms. Yes.
[01:00:26] Speaker 3: Okay, and you do realize or did realize that this slide and barrel that was outstanding was a central issue in this case?
[01:00:34] Speaker 6: Ms. Yes, probably eight months after my arrest I realized that.
[01:00:42] Speaker 3: Okay, and you understand that today?
[01:00:44] Speaker 6: Ms. Yes.
[01:00:46] Speaker 3: Ms. Now you've testified, well we've heard different things from your interview with the police and what you've said on the stand that you sort of hated guns, you didn't like them, but then you became interested in them for writing, then for safety, and then you seem to have taken quite an interest after that in guns. Is that safe to say?
[01:01:10] Speaker 6: Ms. I would say the irony is that we bought a gun to protect us and it didn't protect us. I'm just asking about your interest in guns. Ms. My interest in guns were twofold. One is the protection, which it didn't work, and second is the writing, which has nothing to do with guns, but has to do with gun pieces. Right.
[01:01:29] Speaker 3: But you said you became obsessed with firearms.
[01:01:32] Speaker 6: Ms. I was obsessed with the writing and the gun pieces, not with firearms. You know, I wasn't investigating AR-15s or shotguns or anything like that.
[01:01:43] Speaker 3: Just Glocks?
[01:01:44] Speaker 6: Ms. Just a handgun that would protect my character.
[01:01:48] Speaker 3: And you did a lot of research online? Ms. Not yet. I've started it. So you, didn't you just testify like?
[01:01:58] Speaker 6: Ms. That I started researching, that I research online all the time, but I wasn't finished researching by any stretch of imagination.
[01:02:05] Speaker 3: You had been to a gun show?
[01:02:07] Speaker 6: Ms. Yes.
[01:02:08] Speaker 3: Bought a gun?
[01:02:09] Speaker 6: Ms. Yes.
[01:02:10] Speaker 3: Bought a ghost gun? Ms. Went through that whole process? Ms. Right. Uh, when did you go to the gun range? Ms. I never have been to a gun range.
[01:02:18] Speaker 6: Never been to a gun range?
[01:02:20] Speaker 3: So you're doing this research. You're getting ready to do this writing. You have all these people around you that know about guns and own guns and have maybe even done some research themselves for their own books. Ms. Mm-hmm. Ms. Uh, why didn't you ever talk to Nathaniel about guns?
[01:02:43] Speaker 6: Ms. I have talked to Nathaniel about guns. There was a point, I was writing a story early on, and I told him I needed a gun, uh, a type of gun that I could have my, uh, hero use, and he gave me the name and explained why. When was that? Ms. Well, you know, it was probably, uh, it was probably, uh, 2010. It was, it had been a while before.
[01:03:17] Speaker 3: So, in 2018, 2017, 2018, you had known for years that Nathaniel had knowledge about guns. Ms. Yes, but, sorry. Did you talk to Dan's brothers about guns?
[01:03:31] Speaker 6: Ms. They owned them, or at least Bill owned them.
[01:03:35] Speaker 3: And, uh, did you talk to Tonya Medlin and her husband about guns?
[01:03:38] Speaker 6: Ms. Apparently Dan talked to them more than I did, but, yeah.
[01:03:42] Speaker 3: And Terry Reid?
[01:03:44] Speaker 6: Ms. No, I don't think Terry Reid and I discussed guns at all.
[01:03:47] Speaker 3: What about your other writer friends, including Jessie Smith?
[01:03:50] Speaker 6: Ms. Jessie Smith, salute. Uh, I probably talked briefly to Linda Smith, but I knew how she felt. Uh, and Linda Smith does not write that kind of a story anyway.
[01:04:02] Speaker 3: Why didn't you talk to Matt Gitchell about guns?
[01:04:04] Speaker 6: Ms. Well, I didn't know that he was an authority.
[01:04:09] Speaker 3: Why not follow up with Tony Hall, who you knew was an authority?
[01:04:11] Speaker 6: Ms. Tony Hall was really Dan's friend. I mean, I knew him, but I never ran into him. Why didn't you do any research at the guns?
[01:04:20] Speaker 3: Why didn't you do any research at the gun show or go to a gun store and talk to them?
[01:04:25] Speaker 6: Ms. Because I wasn't ready to write the story yet. That would have come.
[01:04:29] Speaker 3: In fact, the company that you bought the gun through, J&B Firearms, that's actually a gun store that's very close to your house, right?
[01:04:36] Speaker 6: Ms. It turned out to be, yeah.
[01:04:39] Speaker 3: They had recommended that you go to Threat Dynamics or that gun range that we've seen a couple of times. You never went to Threat Dynamics? Never. You've never gone to the Tri-County Gun Club?
[01:04:52] Speaker 6: Ms. Is that the one that we keep talking about out on 26th? No. Oh, well, no, I've never been there.
[01:04:58] Speaker 3: Where were you going on the 26th when you were out near that gun range?
[01:05:10] Speaker 6: Oh, on the two random days in March that we've been talking about off and on? Is that what you're asking me about now?
[01:05:18] Speaker 7: Yes.
[01:05:19] Speaker 6: Okay. Dan and I had decided that that was an area we wanted to look at. I'm driving around frequently out there trying to look to see if there's any property, anything that leaps out at us, anything that is all the requirements Dan has. The land has to be flat for gardening. The land has to be fairly treeless so that we don't have the shadow hanging over it. I know what he requires and I know what I need in the house.
[01:05:48] Speaker 3: Isn't that state land out there?
[01:05:50] Speaker 6: It is after fashion and that's why I didn't go all the way out to where you're saying it was. I went out after fashion and came back.
[01:05:56] Speaker 3: You just drove out there randomly? Were there less than a couple of minutes and then headed back to Portland on the 26th?
[01:06:03] Speaker 6: No, I didn't do any of that. Wait, let's stop. Ask your question to me again and let me see if I can.
[01:06:11] Speaker 3: On the 26th, the first day. I believe it was Monday. Right. While Dan was at work. Right. You drove out to that area. Right. And according to cell site location information, it appears that you drove out there, turned around, and drove back.
[01:06:26] Speaker 6: I don't think I drove that far out there. I mean, you know, I don't I if I know that it's out there. I know because we've talked about it and talked about it and talked about it, but I have never, ever, ever been there. And if I had been going there, I would have gone there with Dan and I would have gone there. We ended up at the closest I got to it. We had what? Two minutes, 10 minutes that I could have spent there. I can think if I was just going out to fire a gun at dirt that I could have found someplace a whole lot closer to my house and driving an hour and a half to make that happen.
[01:06:59] Speaker 3: So you knew about that gun range?
[01:07:05] Speaker 6: I had heard about the gun range from the J and B people.
[01:07:09] Speaker 3: In fact, that's your handwriting, right? I don't know.
[01:07:12] Speaker 6: I haven't seen that note in ages.
[01:07:14] Speaker 3: So you knew it was there, though?
[01:07:18] Speaker 6: And I'm not sure that is my handwriting, so I'm thinking about it. I think they wrote it down. But I can look at the note again and tell you. Let's not get lost in the weeds here.
[01:07:26] Speaker 3: Okay. You know about the gun range. I knew about the gun range.
[01:07:30] Speaker 6: They told you about it. I knew about the gun range.
[01:07:32] Speaker 3: Your car just happens to be out in that area on the 26th. I'm sorry, your phone happens to be out in that area on the 26th.
[01:07:37] Speaker 6: And what I can tell you is Delilah Marville's property is west of Banks. Vernonia is northwest. The area Dan wanted to look in is this area. And we, I was looking, you know, and I can tell you we've been looking for a while. You'll see if you went back and looked at my locations at the kiosk. I frequently was in that area looking once again, property, what would work? You know, I'm all over town. Now, to be perfectly honest, I don't remember doing any of this, but I'm sure I did it. And since you brought it up so often, I have seriously thought about it. But all I can tell you is it wasn't a day where I thought, whoa, this will be new and different. This was just a day. And I'm assuming the reason I'm driving around out there in that area is because I look for property. This is not a situation where I have a clear memory of it. This is a situation where if I was out there on two random days in March, then what was happening was I was probably looking for property. And that is my best guess.
[01:08:48] Speaker 3: Didn't you have lunch with someone that day? I could have.
[01:08:51] Speaker 6: I don't remember.
[01:08:52] Speaker 3: In Portland?
[01:08:53] Speaker 6: I have no idea. I mean, let's go back. Let's look at the records. I can probably reconstruct. But where does it say I had lunch?
[01:09:05] Speaker 3: Didn't you go to Nicholas's restaurant in Northeast Portland on Broadway on the 26th?
[01:09:11] Speaker 6: Okay. I could have.
[01:09:13] Speaker 3: Does that sound familiar?
[01:09:14] Speaker 6: I go there frequently. I have a friend who really likes to go there. And we frequently meet and talk about writing there.
[01:09:20] Speaker 3: And who were you meeting there?
[01:09:22] Speaker 6: Well, it's somebody who hasn't testified. It's a woman named Marilyn Hull. Marilyn Hull. Hull.
[01:09:28] Speaker 3: H-U-L-L. So on the 26th, you get up. You Google how to load a Glock 9mm. You drive out to an area that happens to you. Wait, wait.
[01:09:37] Speaker 6: I don't know that I Googled that. But if you say I did, I'd like to see that. But I could have. I mean, once again, I am messing with gun pieces. You know, I am not messing with research. I am not messing with. So I could have put that in that morning if I had some spare time. Because I don't think I gave up the gun research until the beginning of April when I knew I had to get back and finish my other story. Part of the problem is, is if you don't finish the story you're on, then you have story pieces everywhere. And, you know, people say, what's the most difficult thing about writing a book? It's finishing the book. You have to force yourself to finish it. When you've written yourself into a hole, it's real easy to see a new idea out there that would be more interesting. You have to go back and force yourself. So yeah, I had a few months where I flirted with guns. But real frankly, my goal was to finish the book I was on.
[01:10:41] Speaker 3: Okay, so in March, you are doing research at that point.
[01:10:45] Speaker 6: I could be, yes.
[01:10:46] Speaker 3: And can we go ahead and put up States Exhibit 82? Sure. Go there to March 26, 10:13 AM. Do you see that? Mm-hmm. Searching, loading a 9mm Glock. Okay. Immediately after that, searching, cleaning a Glock. Okay. And then you get in your car.
[01:11:14] Speaker 6: Okay.
[01:11:15] Speaker 3: Drive out to an area that has now been established is where that Wolf Creek gun range is. I don't want to put this back on.
[01:11:23] Speaker 6: Okay. But I can guarantee you that I wouldn't have gone that far. And the reason why is because it's all forested land and it's higher elevation than what Dan wanted. But I'm not going to tell you I wasn't out there because I probably was. You know, you've got video that shows my phone visited it.
[01:11:40] Speaker 3: And you're out there for no time at all. Basically turn around and drive straight back into Northeast Portland for lunch. That could be.
[01:11:47] Speaker 6: Okay. It could be that that could have happened. I drive a lot in my job. I also drive a lot for meditation, for work, for writing.
[01:11:58] Speaker 3: What does that have to do with what we're talking about? Right.
[01:12:03] Speaker 6: You're saying you drove around two random days in March. I'm saying my best guess is I was looking for property. But my best guess could have been I was filling a plot hole too. Are you following me? Then I don't know what I was doing. I'm giving you what I regard as great possibilities of what I was doing. Great.
[01:12:23] Speaker 3: Great. So you have a nice lunch.
[01:12:25] Speaker 6: You go home.
[01:12:26] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. The next morning you get up and do the same thing.
[01:12:29] Speaker 6: Okay.
[01:12:30] Speaker 3: Dan's at work again.
[01:12:31] Speaker 6: Okay.
[01:12:32] Speaker 3: You drive out to the same area. Mm-hmm. Exact same area. Mm-hmm. But you're there for longer. Do you recall that?
[01:12:40] Speaker 6: I recall the testimony that I've heard.
[01:12:43] Speaker 3: I'm asking if you recall.
[01:12:45] Speaker 6: No. No. These are two random. I drive all the time. I don't think about this. I drive when I'm thinking for about the story. I drive when I'm working. I work all over this whole area. No. I don't recall two random days in March that I was driving around. I can tell you for sure I never went to the gun ranch.
[01:13:07] Speaker 3: Would it surprise you that that's the only two times that your phone as far back as the phone records go that we have. When you head out that way that it's the only time you don't go all the way to the coast.
[01:13:18] Speaker 6: No. That can't possibly be true. And the reason why that can't possibly be true. It's because I have a lot of clients in. Uh. For known for don't you. And I would have gone out to see them if nothing else during Medicare. Uh season. You know I have clients. I drive all over. I love for known. Yeah. I think it is a charming little town. But. Uh. But that does not mean that I. That could possibly have been the only times I was out there that I didn't go to the coast.
[01:13:50] Speaker 3: Do you agree on the 26th and 27th you didn't go to Vernonia?
[01:13:53] Speaker 6: I don't remember going to Vernonia. But your records show that I didn't go to Vernonia. And I'm ready. I'm willing to believe you.
[01:14:00] Speaker 3: I want to talk about Dan's routines. Okay. We've got a lot of testimony in this case. I think you'd agree that he held a pretty strict routine. Is that correct?
[01:14:20] Speaker 6: Yes.
[01:14:21] Speaker 3: When it. Whatever it was. Whether it was what time he left for work. Or.
[01:14:26] Speaker 6: Depending on the day. He. He held a strict routine depending on what his. His schedule was for the day.
[01:14:31] Speaker 3: I think you testified that. Within. The 30 minute windows. Pretty much he got up at the same time every day. Didn't matter if he was going to work. That's absolutely true. Um. What time was that? It was between 4:00 and 4:30.
[01:14:42] Speaker 6: That's when he would wake up. Mm-hmm.
[01:14:44] Speaker 3: Okay. Need. I think you testified too. And I. I know you told the police that. He walked the dogs. Mm-hmm. Take care of the chickens. Mm-hmm. Um. Sometimes go get you coffee. Mm-hmm. That was pretty routine for him. Mm-hmm. Okay. Anything else? He frequently.
[01:15:01] Speaker 6: If he needed to. Do something like go to Wojamiah in the morning. He would do that. Uh. He did shopping. For his class. Or for whatever he was doing. Uh. Usually early in the morning. Okay. Uh. You know. He. Uh. He worked in the garden. Early in the morning.
[01:15:19] Speaker ?: It.
[01:15:20] Speaker 3: Sounds like you two. Kind of. Did your own thing. During the day. Like. He would go to work. You had your things. Sorry. Your things to do. Like you would have. Go and meet clients. Things like that. But you didn't. You didn't work together.
[01:15:36] Speaker 6: That's not true. We frequently work together. Uh. He.
[01:15:41] Speaker 3: You worked at OCI.
[01:15:42] Speaker 6: No. No. But we worked together. On different things. If he had a. Class. Outside of OCI. For example. I might take things down to him. I took things down to OCI. For Dan. And. Three to four times a month. Because he would get to school. And realize. He'd left something. So. We worked together. In terms of. Of doing things. But not necessarily. On projects. Right. Am I being clear.
[01:16:06] Speaker 3: Not really. Okay. So. When you.
[01:16:10] Speaker ?: Would you say.
[01:16:11] Speaker 3: That generally. You knew. Where Dan was. Yes.
[01:16:15] Speaker 6: Yes. I would say that.
[01:16:17] Speaker 3: And in general. Would he know where you were. In general. He would know where I was. You guys would communicate. I'm. I'm going to work. Or I'm coming home. Or whatever.
[01:16:26] Speaker 6: Yes. Or. You know. Uh. I sold a policy. Or. Uh. Uh. The dogs. Are having an issue. Or whatever. We. We were in constant contact.
[01:16:39] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:16:44] Speaker 3: And. In general. I know it depends on what kind of. Stuff is happening at OCI. On the weekends. Did Dan generally leave around the same time.
[01:16:52] Speaker ?: Every day. No. It would depend on what his schedule was. You know. If he was working weekends. He worked.
[01:16:58] Speaker 6: He left at a different time. If he was working days. He worked at a different time. If he was going mushroom hunting. He left at a different time. Listen to the question. The question is. On the weekends. All right. And going to OCI. Right. Did he generally leave at the same time. Right. I would say within a 30 minute window. Yeah. And. On June 2nd.
[01:17:15] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Did you expect for him to leave. Earlier that day. Because of the live fire. It wouldn't have surprised me. For him too. But Dan was always prepared.
[01:17:22] Speaker 6: Dan took being a boy scout to heart. And. He was a boy scout.
[01:17:25] Speaker 3: He was always prepared. He could have left earlier. He could have been. Well enough prepared. That he. Didn't need to. And in preparation.
[01:17:32] Speaker 6: For that live fire. He actually took. Two carts down. To the school.
[01:17:36] Speaker ?: The day before.
[01:17:37] Speaker 6: Yeah. That was a live fire. It wouldn't have surprised me. For him too. But Dan was always prepared. Dan took being a boy scout. To heart. And he was always prepared. We went to a party. Where somebody cut themselves. With a knife. Who had a medical kit. Dan. You know. He was Mr. prepared. So. He could have left earlier. He could have been.
[01:17:55] Speaker 3: Well enough prepared. That he. Didn't need to. And in preparation. For that live fire. He took. Just.
[01:18:02] Speaker 6: Okay. He took two carts. Down.
[01:18:05] Speaker 3: Because he does.
[01:18:06] Speaker 6: That every weekend. Gotcha. He does that every Friday.
[01:18:09] Speaker 3: Yes. Most.
[01:18:11] Speaker 6: Well. I hate to commit. To every Friday. He does it every weekend. But. The days he chooses. To do it. Or. His days.
[01:18:20] Speaker ?: And.
[01:18:21] Speaker 3: You were aware. That he did that. That Friday.
[01:18:24] Speaker 6: June 1st.
[01:18:25] Speaker ?: I was.
[01:18:26] Speaker 3: Okay. And. You know. Dan. Generally parks. On 17th. In front of the culinary. Institute.
[01:18:34] Speaker ?: No.
[01:18:35] Speaker 6: He. I think he parks. There a fair amount. But he also parks. On Madison. He. Rarely uses a lot. Because. He's one of the lucky people. Who have a parking sticker. He can park on the street.
[01:18:46] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[01:18:47] Speaker 6: And he parks. Wherever he parks. I mean. Is. Assigned parking. Or even. His idea. Of assigned parking.
[01:18:55] Speaker 3: Does it make sense. To you though. That when he is. Bringing things. To the school. That he would park. On 17th. So that he could unload.
[01:19:03] Speaker ?: And load.
[01:19:04] Speaker 6: Into the school. That would make sense. But I would also say when he and the Starbucks across the street were doing five gallon buckets of coffee grounds, he parked on Jefferson so he could deal with that.
[01:19:25] Speaker 3: You stated that you knew that the doors would usually be locked at the school. Is that true?
[01:19:31] Speaker 6: The doors were always locked. As far as I know, I don't know of an incident where anything but the student door would have been opened that people could have gone in and out.
[01:19:44] Speaker 3: We'll talk about the school in a little bit more in just a second. You sort of mentioned this, I actually think you did mention it, that Dan always had cash. Was that just kind of the guy he was? He liked to deal with cash as opposed to cards and credit cards?
[01:20:02] Speaker 6: He operated with cash and so he needed a lot of ones because of the cart. So he frequently would have little money bundles of ones at home from either money he had made off the cart or what have you. He operated with cash more but it was largely for the cart.
[01:20:22] Speaker 3: Right, right and it's true that he often didn't even know how much money was in his own account. Right?
[01:20:31] Speaker 6: Dan was more routine than that. I wouldn't say he didn't know how much was in his account. I would say it differently. I would say Dan had certain the reason why we broke up our finances the way we did was because his expenses were much more routine and he could figure out his money based upon the fact his check was much more routine than my life was.
[01:20:55] Speaker 3: But he would actually reach out to you to ask you if his check had been deposited, right?
[01:21:00] Speaker 6: He would call me and say I need you to look at the bank account and tell me this or that.
[01:21:13] Speaker 1: Your Honor, I'm about to start a new subject. I don't know if you want to all right, let's go ahead and take our morning break then and be back on the record at 10:45.
[01:21:21] Speaker 5: Okay, we'll go off record and come on back, all right? Okay, we'll go off record and we'll come on back, all right?
[01:21:45] Speaker ?: Okay, we'll go off record and we'll come on back, all right? Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
[01:40:52] Speaker 1: So, we'll just go to 445 as we have been going. So, with that, let's uh, yes.
[01:41:22] Speaker 2: Two things. One, I have to find my glasses before we do anything, and I don't know where I left them, but I'll go find them. Um, oh, thank you. The problem with losing your glasses is you can't see. Sure. Um, the other thing is, and I just thought it'd be easier to do it now rather than when the jury, leave the jury back out. One of the exhibits that I'm going to want to talk to my client about on redirect is, um, what's the exhibit number? Are you talking about that text thread? Susan? Yeah, it's 2-1-2-point-4, 2-1-2-point-4. Oh, I would, I would like to show the court right now exhibit defense exhibit 2-1-2-point-4. Okay. Um, so I want to talk to her, which is a text from Dan Brophy to Nancy Brophy asking her whether she's tackling Susan's room with, I think, with abandon. Um, Council had asked Ms Brophy on cross-examination whether why she hadn't cleaned it, why they hadn't cleaned up the house before Dan died. And so I want to talk to her about this. I want to talk to her, but this is a text question because it sets the time in which she's actually trying to clean out Susan's room, which is the second bedroom downstairs, which happened on March 4th of 2018.
[01:42:45] Speaker 1: Okay, I'm trying to follow. Uh, there were some questions about whether or not they had cleaned up to prepare to sell the house before his death.
[01:42:57] Speaker 2: Uh, what is the relevance of this? The relevance is this. He's asking Ms Brophy whether she's attacking Susan's room with reckless abandon. And the date of this text message is March 4th, 2018 about 12:30 in the afternoon.
[01:43:13] Speaker 1: Okay, so your argument is that it's rebutting a contention that they weren't doing anything to prepare for.
[01:43:20] Speaker 2: Yes, and I want to show that to my client and ask her what she was doing in Susan's room.
[01:43:26] Speaker 1: Um, on March 4th. Okay. I think I'm, I think I'm following now. Yeah. Okay. And does the state, what's the state's position?
[01:43:34] Speaker 3: Well, we, we do have a relevancy objection and a hearsay objection, but also Dan asking, I mean, Ms. Brophy could certainly say on, on redirect or she can clarify on cross if she wants that they were in fact getting ready to sell the house and one of the things they were doing was cleaning up that room. What Dan's asking about attacking the room that any context whatsoever. Um, what does that have to do with Ms. Brophy's testimony?
[01:44:03] Speaker 2: Yeah. All right. I think it's the question, which isn't hearsay because it's a question, but it's, it's tethered to this specific time and date.
[01:44:12] Speaker 1: I, I understand. And I, you know, she'll answer the question, which will provide the context. Uh, so I will allow, I will allow this. Are you asking to admit this or to show it to her?
[01:44:27] Speaker 2: I want to show it. I want to, but I, I want the, I think that the date and time of this question is admissible to corroborate Ms. Brophy's testimony that yes, they were cleaning out the house before. And one of the first things she did was to clean out Susan's room, which was the second bedroom downstairs. And this is also the room. The room that Jack Brophy had declared was filled with Dan. I think it was Dan Brophy's was a debris. It was just Dan debris, Dan debris, Dan debris. Um, so he had already referenced that. And I will, I want my client to talk about what was going on months before Dan died. But I think that the date stamp on this particular, uh, text message is relevant. It came off of Dan's phone. The question that he's asking is not hearsay because it's a question and I want to be able to corroborate and bolster Ms. Brophy's testimony regarding what was happening in that timeframe.
[01:45:28] Speaker 3: All right. Did you want to add anything more Mr. Overstreet? Well, first of all, the idea that a question can't be hearsay is not true. Um, questions can be hearsay. In fact, it is offered for the truth of the matter, asserted that they were cleaning the room. That's what the question is. And that's what they're offering it for. So therefore it is hearsay.
[01:45:49] Speaker 1: All right. So anything more? No. All right. I would agree that questions can be hearsay. I'm not sure that this one is, but in any event, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna allow this in. I don't know that this particular question is hearsay because you just read it by itself. I don't know if it's a statement really of anything. I don't even know if one could even understand what it means, uh, without the context that your client will provide. So I'll allow the question and the admission of this text.
[01:46:28] Speaker 2: Okay. Thank you, Your Honor. Now I do have my glasses. Okay. There's the second thing.
[01:46:35] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[01:46:37] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:46:37] Speaker 1: You, since I have no idea, sort of preparing for the inevitable and concerns about the length of the trial, uh, I'm not gonna hold anyone to this, but how much longer do you think cross examination is roughly roughly?
[01:46:54] Speaker 3: Uh, it's really hard to say your honor because based on the answers. Okay. And the length of the answer. So I can't really say.
[01:47:02] Speaker 1: All right. Uh, let me ask this then for the other witnesses that are lined up for defense. At which I think there were four or five. I don't remember precisely. Do you have a rough ballpark of how long you think those other witnesses will take?
[01:47:19] Speaker 4: Well, I'm known for being overly optimistic about things like this. I was gonna say they really shouldn't run more than about a half an hour each, but that's not okay. That gives me some idea. All right. Okay.
[01:47:32] Speaker 1: Let's uh, let's bring the jury back.
[01:47:34] Speaker 5: Okay, um, we'll go off record and you can watch.
[01:47:37] Speaker ?: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
[01:52:02] Speaker 1: And Mrs. Brophy, if we can have you retake the stand?
[01:52:08] Speaker 3: Thank you.
[01:52:38] Speaker 6: I'm ready.
[01:52:39] Speaker 3: I want to talk to you about your familiarity with the Oregon Culinary Institute. Okay. And I asked you if you can see States Exhibit 1, and that's what you were saying. Yes, you can see that okay?
[01:52:58] Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
[01:52:58] Speaker 3: Okay. Does that look familiar to you?
[01:53:01] Speaker 6: Yes, it does.
[01:53:03] Speaker 3: How many times would you say you visited the Oregon Culinary Institute?
[01:53:12] Speaker 6: Hundreds
[01:53:15] Speaker 3: Have you been to most areas of the building I?
[01:53:18] Speaker 6: Have been and before it was or CI it was a division of Western culinary
[01:53:24] Speaker 3: So I have been there many times is that where you is that that's not the building that you went to culinary school No, it's not okay, but when it was Western culinary If you you had familiarity with it then mm-hmm, okay, and then when it became the Oregon Culinary Institute Of course Dan worked there. Mm-hmm. Okay, so you think you've been there hundreds of times? Mm-hmm Is there any area that you hadn't haven't ever been in You can use the pointer there if you'd like all right
[01:54:06] Speaker 6: This area it's not that I don't know that classroom is that I've really never been in there and this little closet Area in here. I've never been in there This became a classroom later But I've certainly been in it when it was an empty space
[01:54:22] Speaker 3: Other than that I would say no, okay when you would come down to the culinary Institute Well, there's been some testimony that used to come to the restaurant quite a bit. Mm-hmm Where would you generally park and where would you go in?
[01:54:38] Speaker 6: You can have an hour's parking out in front and But I never parked the student parking lot. It was too crowded So either parked in the hour parking lot or across the street in front of Starbucks in that area You would go in this entrance down here This entrance down here
[01:54:58] Speaker 3: And then sit in the dining room and then when you came down to say bring Dan something or Just come to visit or whatever Where would you generally park and go in then?
[01:55:13] Speaker 6: A lot of times I wouldn't park at all a lot of times Stan would leave the vehicle and lock for me I would find where he'd parked I'd put stuff on a seat. I'd lock his car. I would get back in and go other times Dan would meet me with a cup of coffee because he knows a good bride and He would give me the coffee. I'd give him whatever it's gotten at how at the house and I would not go in on the few occasions that I went in I Would come in the student interest because that was the one that was unlocked
[01:55:43] Speaker 3: Now you said that you visited the culinary Institute a couple weeks prior to Dan's death. Mm-hmm also on a Saturday Mm-hmm about 7:30 in the morning. I could have been With cell site location information said that was 7:30 would you agree with that? I probably would yeah You said that day you were meeting a client and you decided to stop there to use the restroom, right? You said that Dan Had to let you in. Yes, which door was that Dan would have let me in
[01:56:12] Speaker 6: The staff entrance which is down at the end of that strip that's 17 right side door right and did you park on the street?
[01:56:23] Speaker 3: Yes, and he let you in that door. Yes, you said you went to the restroom. Yes, which restrooms did you go to I have no idea Did you go to the ones in that main hallway or did you have to go somewhere else?
[01:56:34] Speaker 6: Well, the restrooms are Here and here so I went to one of them I'd have no idea which restroom I went to when you were using the restroom. Where did Dan go? He did whatever he does, you know He was doing what his routine was or whatever. What did you see him doing when you were in there? Well, I was in the restroom. I didn't see him doing anything. Not where you're in the restroom when you're in the building I Came out of the restroom. He came out of one of the classrooms. He walked me to the to the door and I left I you know there wasn't we didn't have social hour. He was working. I was bar in the bathroom I had things to do. He had things to do
[01:57:15] Speaker 3: What were the names of the other people that were there?
[01:57:18] Speaker 6: I didn't see anybody there, but That didn't mean people weren't there. I would have said yadu was there and I probably would have said the other instructor was there
[01:57:28] Speaker 3: You didn't see or hear anyone did you? Not that I recall and that was on May 17th I'm not sure if the cell site location information put you at the school at 7:30 on May 17th. Would you agree with that?
[01:57:45] Speaker 6: I'm not sure and the reason why I'm not sure is I'm just gonna say I'm not sure okay
[01:57:53] Speaker 3: But you agree that it's two to three weeks prior hmm something like that Okay, and you didn't go another time. No So Being familiar with this building you knew there were no cameras in the building, right?
[01:58:11] Speaker 6: You know that just never came up in the conversation I wouldn't have told you if there were cameras in the building or not
[01:58:17] Speaker 3: You don't recall telling anybody that you knew there were no cameras in the building
[01:58:20] Speaker 6: I may have said that because I may have known more five years ago than I know more now Okay, did I know there was no cameras now? Because of all this all this the all these things that have happened I Can't really tell you although I may may have known it whether there were cameras before that I just don't remember if I knew that before
[01:58:48] Speaker 3: What about outside the building did you see any cameras? Once again, I wasn't looking what about over at BMW or yeah, what was BMW was prior to the property room? Did you see any cameras over there?
[01:59:06] Speaker 6: not looking I wasn't paying enough attention to have told you that did you see any cameras when in any of the visits that you?
[01:59:14] Speaker 3: Came down to the Oregon Culinary Institute Couldn't tell you when did you find out about Mark's death I?
[01:59:25] Speaker 6: I can't tell you the exact time but I can tell you the day and it was a mark died on
[01:59:32] Speaker 3: June 22nd, what were you doing when you got that call?
[01:59:37] Speaker 6: I Can't even tell you for Susan or Holly who called me I talked to both of them, and I don't know who told me that but It's Sarah not Susan Holly Sarah or Holly Sarah and I Sarah said can I come over and I said sure but whatever I was doing it was probably wandering around in a fog anyway So I have no idea what I was doing
[02:00:02] Speaker 3: So did you find out on a phone call or
[02:00:05] Speaker 6: Is it better if I sit back a little? Did I guess I found out on a phone call
[02:00:12] Speaker 3: What about Ed? What were you doing?
[02:00:19] Speaker 6: I think cousin Janet was Sarah when we found out a bit ahead I We both knew he was in bad health, but I think cousin Janet may have gotten the text or a phone call or something from that so we knew
[02:00:39] Speaker 3: And you've seen all the video you driving around downtown at this point, right?
[02:00:45] Speaker 6: Yes
[02:00:46] Speaker 3: Seeing the He's still photographs from that Mm-hmm, and you you testified on direct that It looked like you looked like your van
[02:00:58] Speaker 5: Mm-hmm
[02:01:00] Speaker 3: Didn't quite say you do agree that that is you at this point, right?
[02:01:09] Speaker 6: You know I do I do I do but I would say that it took me a while to get to that stage Yeah
[02:01:17] Speaker 3: But as you sit here today, you agree that it is you driving That van that morning
[02:01:23] Speaker 6: Yes, but I also think that Yes, but I also think that Uh Only because of the date stamp can I tell on the things can I tell you was that morning? Right
[02:01:33] Speaker 3: You're not challenging that
[02:01:40] Speaker 6: You're agreeing that that is you we have more things to challenge than me driving around in this case
[02:01:49] Speaker 3: You would agree that you're driving around and at the in front of the culinary suit At the exact time that Dan is being murdered
[02:01:59] Speaker 6: I know actually I don't agree with that I was driving around for a full hour before Dan got murdered I was down there before Dan ever got to school I had was driving around writing For a full hour. I was only in that vicinity for six minutes, and I don't know that Dan was murdered in that six minutes You know we agree that he we agree that he was murdered in that time frame, but in terms of When he arrived and shortly thereafter, but in whether it's not in that six minutes or not, I don't know
[02:02:34] Speaker 3: I'm sorry. Did you just say that you were driving around writing?
[02:02:37] Speaker 6: Yes, that's what I was doing was driving around writing I testified to that yesterday that I would find a place to park and I jot down ideas
[02:02:46] Speaker 3: I thought you didn't know that you were driving
[02:02:49] Speaker 6: Yesterday when I testified for was that when I was sitting in there I could remember being in the being in the parking lot riding
[02:03:01] Speaker 3: Didn't I say that yesterday? Yeah, no, so let's let's go back. Okay, let's go back
[02:03:08] Speaker 1: View so this is briefly don't ask questions. Mr. Overstreet. Don't answer questions.
[02:03:14] Speaker 6: Sorry
[02:03:17] Speaker 3: So Yesterday you stated that you remembered a time being in that area
[02:03:26] Speaker 5: Mm-hmm
[02:03:27] Speaker 3: and you were riding
[02:03:27] Speaker 5: Mm-hmm
[02:03:28] Speaker 3: There was a white van Mm-hmm There was a man going back and forth between the white van and some other location You assumed that he was working on the van It was distracting to you And that you decided to leave. Do you remember that?
[02:03:41] Speaker 6: Mm-hmm
[02:03:42] Speaker 3: Is that is that accurate? Yeah, okay Your attorney then asked you if that was on June 2nd
[02:03:50] Speaker 6: And I said I did not know Right
[02:03:53] Speaker 3: So if you do not know you have no memory of driving around downtown on the morning of June 2nd Mm-hmm How can you sit here today and say that I was driving around writing?
[02:04:04] Speaker 6: Because if I was down there, that's what I was doing and you're right I stand corrected that I should have answered the question differently and said I don't know But I do know based upon the time stamps that I was down there an hour before Dan died And that I was only down there for Six minutes or less from the time that he signed into the building Until you see me again leaving the area right that six minutes
[02:04:35] Speaker 3: You just happened to be in front of the culinary institute during that time. No, I wasn't Did you see the video where you can see your van turning off of 17th on to jefferson at 7:28 a.m
[02:04:47] Speaker 6: I could I did see that but that doesn't mean I was in front of the the culinary institute That means I would have come up from another street to have gotten there
[02:04:57] Speaker 3: But you're not seen on any other cameras until that moment ah, but
[02:05:04] Speaker 6: As you all testified if there's a train you can't see when people cross madison So I could have been And what I actually think I was if this is having thought about it for a while is in another parking lot off madison At that point so I can say At 7:28 I definitely turned the van and was driving There and we all saw it, but I have no idea and I know I wasn't parked in front of the building So what I would have been is riding someplace else and coming around now I'm doing this based upon putting stuff back together not based upon actual memory
[02:05:42] Speaker 3: Right, you said you know that you wouldn't have been parked in front of the building
[02:05:45] Speaker 6: But how would you know that because I would have gone inside because I would have said hi, dan How are you because um? Uh when dan came out of the building he was said hey, nancy, how are you? You know, this is we're not foreigners. We know each other
[02:05:59] Speaker 3: How do you know you didn't go in the building?
[02:06:02] Speaker 6: I know I didn't go in the building because I didn't kill dan You know, I know that for a fact
[02:06:08] Speaker 3: If you have no memory How do you know you didn't go in the building?
[02:06:14] Speaker 6: You know i'm reconstructing this but i'm reconstructing this based upon what I know in my heart and what I know in my heart Is the reason why I have no memory is because I was stunned by the fact dan was dead And I wouldn't have been stunned if I'd been in the building and shot him
[02:06:32] Speaker 3: I didn't suggest that you did go in to shoot him What i'm suggesting and asking Okay, is did you just go in the building and how would you know if you didn't?
[02:06:42] Speaker 6: I agree that uh, but He wasn't part of my focus that morning. My focus was on my story and getting it out and getting it done. You know And dan is at work You know You don't your wife doesn't drop in to see you at work just because she's driving by you know She assumes you're working. I assumed dan is working. You did it two weeks prior I did it for a specific purpose which was to go to the bathroom right so miss brophy
[02:07:11] Speaker 3: Would you agree that it's possible that you went into the oci on the morning of june 2nd? To use the bathroom. No, I wouldn't
[02:07:19] Speaker 6: Impossible, I would say it was impossible even though you have no memory of it even though. I have no memory of it
[02:07:32] Speaker 3: Where did you normally go to get starbucks?
[02:07:36] Speaker 6: It depended on where I was going that morning If I was going to mcminnville, there's a starbucks As I've drive to on 217 that I can hop off on If I was going to
[02:07:50] Speaker ?: If i was going to
[02:07:50] Speaker 6: If i was going to oregon city what I actually did was I didn't stop for Starbucks because there was a starbucks in the fred meyers where I was going so I would have gone there Uh, if I was at home, uh, there's a starbucks on beaverton hillsdale highway right by jesuit high school There's a starbucks on hall where it intersects with um Right across from the beaverton mall Those are the two I tend to go to occasion occasionally, but if I have time and i'm going to sit there and write Then I usually go to the one at 17th and um 17th and canyon Which is just the other side
[02:08:44] Speaker 3: Other side of uh, 26 right?
[02:08:47] Speaker 6: Uh, no the other side of
[02:08:52] Speaker 3: Other side of 217 from your from your house Okay, so have you taken a look at your bank records?
[02:08:59] Speaker 6: I have not
[02:09:01] Speaker 3: In preparation for this trial you haven't seen your bank records?
[02:09:05] Speaker 6: Well, I saw months and months ago
[02:09:07] Speaker 3: Uh, and you've heard testimony that you go to starbucks quite a bit
[02:09:11] Speaker 6: I do
[02:09:12] Speaker 3: I think somebody said almost a thousand dollars in a year or something like that
[02:09:16] Speaker 6: Yeah, I was shocked by that figure too
[02:09:17] Speaker 3: I think we all would be But there's no charge for starbucks on the morning of june 2nd
[02:09:25] Speaker 6: Yes, but if you go through my bank records you will see there's no charge for starbucks a lot of days when I know that I had coffee You know if I had cash I could have paid cash Keep in mind that I don't have my purse with me because I'm not carrying a purse I'm not wearing a bra, so I don't have A credit card with me. I don't have My phone with me, so I would have had cash and just given it to them
[02:09:52] Speaker 3: That it makes more sense that you would have cash over a card
[02:09:55] Speaker 6: It makes more sense if I don't have a bra that I don't have a card with me
[02:09:59] Speaker 3: And you do agree you left your phone at home that morning
[02:10:02] Speaker 6: I agree I wasn't wearing a bra so my phone wouldn't have been in my bra
[02:10:07] Speaker 3: Right So you're just this day is the day that you paid cash at starbucks. I pay cash at starbucks a fair amount So in the morning if dan doesn't bring you coffee it would be normal for you to get up Not fully get dressed run to starbucks use cash use a card who cares right go back home and and right
[02:10:40] Speaker 6: That was more that would be a normal morning On a day when I wasn't committed to doing something else right but on june 2nd
[02:10:48] Speaker 3: Now you're saying that morning you got up Well, let's let's let's take a step back okay The night before Your testimony was that you went to sleep Late or went to bed late And when you went to bed you went up to that attic bedroom. Yes, and dan was already in bed. Yes And He was asleep. Yes And the reason you went to bed late was because of a leak Is that not the reason you went to bed later?
[02:11:17] Speaker 6: It just happened to be no, I frequently went to bed much later than dan dan went to bed early because he got up early
[02:11:24] Speaker 3: Okay, what time did he go to bed that night? I don't know. Okay. What time did you go to bed? I don't know that. Well, you said it was late. What's what's your reference?
[02:11:31] Speaker 6: Well, it was later in the dan my reference point was that there was water on the floor Okay, and the water on the floor. I was trying to clean it up enough that uh, you know, we didn't step in it in the middle of night and didn't make it worse Which sink are you talking about the sink in the bathroom upstairs? So my bedroom is long and narrow And right off of my bedroom to the left is a bathroom and As I stepped in there, I could We go from carpeting to sheet goods and I could feel the water under my feet. Okay
[02:12:06] Speaker 3: Uh, I think it was maybe just a little confusing. There was some testimony about something some a problem with the kitchen sink
[02:12:11] Speaker 6: But you're not talking about the kitchen sink. No, and I thought that was not uh I thought it was confusing, but I also thought at that point I was probably being making a point rather than pointing to the right sink just pointing to a sink in general. Okay fair enough
[02:12:27] Speaker 3: I just want to make sure we're talking about the right sink, right? I just wasn't clear on that So you're talking about the sink with the leak that was a concern on june 1st Was in the bathroom upstairs. Okay So you kind of clean it up you go to bed late It sounds like maybe you woke up at some point in the night. I wake up every night in the middle of the night Do you have a specific recollection of waking up in the middle of the night? No, okay? Um And by that you mean like you have to use the restroom or something or you know
[02:12:55] Speaker 6: I really don't sleep very well at all and I particularly don't sleep when I'm wound up And when I'm working on a story, I'm wound up. So I'm just not a great sleeper anyway anymore
[02:13:05] Speaker 3: So when you wake up Was Dan already up?
[02:13:10] Speaker 6: Yes, Dan was standing Over the sink in the bathroom
[02:13:17] Speaker 3: And what was he doing?
[02:13:19] Speaker 6: He was he said why are why do we have all these towels in the sink? And so that was What we talked about was the fact that I think there's a leak and I had built underneath, but I couldn't feel it You don't the whatever that long pipes called that and And he said well, I'll get something He said I'll get something Or maybe I know he got something because I saw it. I'm not sure which way this is the truth here Uh, but I when I Dealt with it later. There was a white bucket underneath But the last thing I saw him doing was taking the wet towels down the stairs
[02:14:08] Speaker 3: That's the last time you saw him
[02:14:09] Speaker ?: That's the last time you saw him?
[02:14:09] Speaker 6: Uh-huh
[02:14:11] Speaker 3: You talked about a leak. He walked downstairs with some wet towels
[02:14:13] Speaker ?: Uh-huh
[02:14:13] Speaker 3: You stayed in bed
[02:14:15] Speaker 6: Uh-huh Uh-huh Oh, no This is where I got up and threw on a minimum amount of clothes and Uh, ran to get coffee
[02:14:25] Speaker 3: I thought your testimony was you don't remember going to get coffee
[02:14:29] Speaker 6: I don't remember going to get coffee, but I do remember throwing on some clothes and uh, leaving the house
[02:14:37] Speaker 3: That wasn't your testimony yesterday
[02:14:39] Speaker 6: That I didn't throw on clothes and leave the house
[02:14:41] Speaker 3: That you got dressed, but you said you didn't have any recollection of leaving to go get coffee
[02:14:46] Speaker 6: Well I think we're splitting hairs here. I don't remember getting coffee. I didn't agree to disagree on that, but okay. Okay
[02:14:55] Speaker 3: Which is it miss Brophy? Do you remember going to get coffee or do
[02:15:00] Speaker 6: I do not remember getting coffee. I remember putting on clothes and heading downstairs That's almost always a prelude to I'm going to get coffee and dan was already gone by time. He got downstairs. Oh, no Dan was dan would have been there for uh Quite a bit longer I was expecting to get coffee and be back before he was out of the shower and dressed and everything else. You know you see him No, he's in the basement. He took the wet towels down
[02:15:28] Speaker 3: So he's still there, but you didn't see him that he's still there So now you remember you went downstairs you got dressed you went downstairs
[02:15:36] Speaker 6: Okay, and I have a real problem with this and I have to apologize to you because What I do is I reconstruct based upon what I know would have happened not what actually happened So allow me to apologize for the fact that I have misleading you here and that was not intentional What I would tell you is I don't remember running into dan But if I would have I think I would have remembered it Uh, he's downstairs. I'm assuming dealing with the uh The towels i'm assuming That most mornings i'm right back in bed before he ever leaves okay, so what time did you leave? I have no idea what time did you get back. I have no idea What I know is the last time somebody saw me was I was in a video at 7 28
[02:16:27] Speaker 3: Right So that morning you wake up you get dressed you go downstairs you leave you don't have any recollection as to where you went No And you don't know how long you were gone. I know from From your okay memory memory. No, you have no idea how long you were gone. No, I have done Uh, you know now that your phone was not with you. Yes When you got back was dan still there
[02:16:59] Speaker 6: No And but I couldn't even tell you wait once again. I'm filling in for lengths I don't know that dan was there or not there what I remember is That I was sitting in bed riding when maxine called there's a huge little blanket there
[02:17:17] Speaker 3: I know you jumped ahead with your lawyer. I'm not we're gonna go slower. Okay So you Assume you go get coffee Get home. You don't know if dan's still there or not
[02:17:33] Speaker 6: I don't remember if dan's still there. I don't remember
[02:17:37] Speaker 3: You do remember Some point you're back in bed
[02:17:42] Speaker 6: Yes Because maxine called and I was in bed riding and what time was that? I don't remember that either maxine called what 9 30 10 o'clock somewhere in there sure You remember that I remember maxine calling and you remember what she told you I do you remember how you responded?
[02:18:00] Speaker 3: Yes, and then you remember uh calling dan Yes, you remember tech trying to text dan. Yes, you remember him not answering or responding to your text. I do You then called maxine bordering back right you had you remember that conversation right you got the phone with her you called Karen brophy, right you remember that conversation. I do You remember after that that you got dressed
[02:18:28] Speaker 6: Yes, well, yes, yes you got your phone
[02:18:32] Speaker 8: Got grabbed all my stuff your stuff went downtown
[02:18:37] Speaker 3: Drove downtown And when you drove downtown, did you take the normal way that you would drive when you were going to the culinary institute?
[02:18:46] Speaker 6: I'm going to say
[02:18:48] Speaker ?: I'm going to say
[02:18:48] Speaker 6: I'm going to say That technically I don't really remember but based upon habit. I would have bet money on it
[02:18:53] Speaker 3: Okay So the same road that we see you coming in on on jefferson earlier in the morning That's the route that you most likely would have taken. Mm-hmm. Okay So when you came in when you get to that roundabout Did you go down columbia and turn on 17th?
[02:19:08] Speaker 6: Yes, and I parked at potluck in the park
[02:19:25] Speaker 3: Tricky here I want to show you a map I'm showing you what's marked the states exhibit 95. I talked about the roundabout when you came in here
[02:19:38] Speaker 7: Did you come down to 17th and park on this corner right here? I didn't park on the corner. I parked right right in there
[02:19:45] Speaker 6: Yes, there's like a few spots there. Well, there's a delivery driveway And I don't think they think there's spots. I think I just created a spot
[02:19:54] Speaker 3: So you didn't come in drive around lincoln and come up jefferson, right?
[02:20:00] Speaker 6: If we're talking about I If we're talking about after maxine called
[02:20:08] Speaker ?: Okay
[02:20:10] Speaker 6: Well the video shows I'm down there another time
[02:20:13] Speaker 3: We're to the point in the morning where you've talked to maxine you've talked to right
[02:20:16] Speaker 6: Right, and so I would have gone exactly the way you showed and parked in potluck in the park
[02:20:21] Speaker 7: So you came down here turn on 17th park somewhere in here, right Right, okay, and then where did you walk to from there?
[02:20:29] Speaker 6: Can I use the pointer? Yes, please All right, so there was police Sorry, there was a police tape that ran from this corner right here across the street so that you could not Turn either on to 17th or continue on Right in the middle of the street was a police car And I walked from here to the police car, okay
[02:20:58] Speaker 3: And you said you interacted with a police officer at that point a male police officer yes And he directed you to go somewhere
[02:21:07] Speaker 6: I said i'm nancy brofie and he said wait here and he said I want you wait over there by that building which that building was the corner of directly opposite of OCI okay, and I went stood over there and He brought other officers
[02:21:26] Speaker 3: Okay, is that when uh officer wells came and gave you a hug?
[02:21:31] Speaker 6: When officers wells gave me a hug We had walked from the corner. I would gone around the corner and come up 17th and so we were probably real frankly writing about where the ab is on this sign And uh, they had said we want you to stand back over here So that you're out of the range of the camera from the press And I said okay, and I'm crying and that's when officer wells gave me a hug. Okay, and did she tell you anything? She told me she would like to be married to a chef
[02:22:09] Speaker 3: Okay, did she tell you anything else?
[02:22:14] Speaker 6: Not that I can recall okay
[02:22:16] Speaker 3: Okay, and did you speak with uh the tips volunteer before?
[02:22:22] Speaker 6: You went into the van or after I did not speak with them before okay, and she
[02:22:27] Speaker 3: I was in the band and they escorted her in you recall seeing uh brian wilkie and Yes, okay, where was he?
[02:22:42] Speaker 6: They they were across madison And there was uh brian wilkie and uh, I know woody bailey was with him There were two or three other people who were kind of all standing together over here
[02:22:59] Speaker 3: And you recall when the detectives walked up to you and said they wanted to speak with you in the van It was in that period of time and you remember getting in the van Yes, you remember where the detective sat Yes, you remember having a conversation that was recorded with them. Yes Yes, uh, you don't necessarily remember all the conversation
[02:23:22] Speaker 6: I would tell you it's funny, but i've heard that tape enough that I can tell you what uh
[02:23:26] Speaker 3: Uh, what was on the tape is there anything inaccurate that you were reporting to the police
[02:23:32] Speaker 6: Not intentionally
[02:23:34] Speaker 3: That's not what I asked
[02:23:39] Speaker 6: When the police said to me where were you this morning I told them where I was And I told them where I was based upon the fact that when maxine called me that's where I was in fact
[02:23:48] Speaker 3: What you told the police were you were in bed? Okay, you woke up when dan came upstairs. Yes That he came upstairs to take a shower. Yes That after he got out of the shower you to discuss the leak I told him after the shower. Well, maybe I don't know that you specified exactly when but
[02:24:08] Speaker 6: Well, we're on veracity here. So we need to be accurate. Well, you tell me I don't think I told him it was after the shower. Okay. Was it before I did I think my memory is that I don't remember if he'd taken a shower or not That's why I was surprised you said that okay, but you told the police that
[02:24:25] Speaker 3: You could have been well, you said you've heard the tape. I've heard the tape You told them that you took a shower. I'm sorry that mr. Brophy took a shower
[02:24:33] Speaker 6: I think I told him he came upstairs to take a shower. I don't think I told him he took a shower
[02:24:37] Speaker 3: You said that after the shower he got dressed and left Do you remember that no? But I may have said it and you said that he left at 705 to 710 inch remember that yes, but that was based upon when he always left okay But you just testified to something completely different
[02:24:54] Speaker 6: Here's the thing is that No, I i'm still on the same thing I testified to the fact that I was trying to help the police So that they had an idea of what dan did in the morning. I didn't think this whole thing had a damn thing to do with me I thought it had to do with uh What was dan doing? What can you do? What can you tell us to help us so we know what his routine is? So was what you told the police inaccurate it could have been but at that point I was screaming in my brain Dan is dead dan is dead and if I was inaccurate it was not to mislead them
[02:25:37] Speaker 3: Do you remember going into quite a bit of detail with the detectives even regarding dan's uh accident the prior week when he cut his hand
[02:25:44] Speaker 6: I could have yes
[02:25:46] Speaker 3: heard that on the tape though You've seen the video heard the testimony You would agree that the critical moments that you've been asked about your responses has been you don't remember
[02:26:16] Speaker 6: It's the most accurate thing I can tell you
[02:26:28] Speaker 3: Right but at the critical moments that you were there in the area At the same time That someone happens to be shooting your husband Within a six-minute window With the exact type of gun that you own And is now mysteriously missing
[02:26:53] Speaker 6: That's your version of what happened that is not my version the only thing I know for sure is I did not kill dan And I have no problem with that I know I didn't tell you can't kill dan with the gun that was put together the gun that wasn't put together or the slide that we can't find But you know when your husband dies Everything around you grinds to a halt and what I told the police The police said this is a death notification but it wasn't a death notification it was an in-depth interview as seen by the fact you're bringing up every moment of it as we're coming back And at death notification they would have said we can see you're upset let us Schedule an appointment let us come back and see you this afternoon let us do something different instead They hammered away with what at me it with questions Hammer hammer hammer and I can tell you this I tried to help them the absolute best I could I tried to give them what I knew was his routine. I tried to help them in any way I could And the fact that you have managed to construct a case against me out of that Is you've constructed a case, but I think your case is held together with real frankly band-aids You know Anything else you want to add to that? No, I think I'm done probably more than I want to be
[02:28:16] Speaker 3: Isn't it possible with your memory problems of the morning that you actually went into the building and shot your husband? And you just don't remember. No, it is not
[02:28:28] Speaker 6: No, it is not because the one thing I knew I had a strong thing is the last time I saw Dan I see Dan every day. I talked to him every day. This is not a man I would have shot because I had a memory issue. It seems to me like if I had shot him I would know every detail You know, I could have told you all sorts of things that was true I did not shoot my husband and I don't know even how to defend myself against the truth, you know
[02:29:00] Speaker 3: We've talked a lot about Dan talked about the devastation to his family. Yes to the community And you've seen the devastation in person Right multiple times over and over All the people reaching out to you the memorials And the testimony in court. Yes You would agree that up until the time that you took the stand You you didn't really show a lot of emotion in this in this trial
[02:29:35] Speaker 6: No, I wouldn't agree with that at all the fact I didn't cry doesn't mean that I didn't show emotion or that I didn't have emotion It's mean I didn't do the overt thing what I would tell you is it wouldn't have mattered if I'd cried or not Because if I had cried, you would be sitting here saying to me. Do you agree that you were overly dramatic? So I don't think there's a win-win in this conversation for me
[02:29:59] Speaker 3: But you chose to take the stand I chose to take the stand explain your side of the story tell my size of the story
[02:30:07] Speaker 6: Which I might point out. I have been absolutely quiet about From the day Dan died to now. I have not had press interviews. I have not done any of the things that Where I could have told my story early
[02:30:23] Speaker 3: Okay When I talk about emotion or lack thereof while you're sitting over there at council table listening to testimony You agree that you you actually Laughed on quite a few occasions. Is that right?
[02:30:40] Speaker 6: The fact that when I think about Dan, it still gives me joy. I do laugh I love people who come up and say to me and I've had several people who've said this in the last four years Dan was my teacher. I loved him and I said tell me stories about him because That gives me joy, you know Yes, I find that it and you know, am I broken hearted? I'm broken hearted Am I delighted to hear stories from people who loved him as much as I did? Yeah, I am
[02:31:08] Speaker 3: Hearing those stories make you emotional as well
[02:31:11] Speaker 6: Talking about Dan period makes me emotional But a lot of the people who tried who came up and cried what they weren't crying for Dan They were crying for themselves. I had a horrible experience happen to me I'm crying and I am empathetic to that But when Karen Brophy teared up My heart broke because I knew she loved him as much as I did And I knew that she was crying for Dan, not for some other reason
[02:31:36] Speaker 3: What about the students? That knew Dan and loved him
[02:31:41] Speaker 6: The students that knew Dan and loved him didn't testify earlier who testified a lot of earlier was the instructor Two or three of the people who had been in the pastry class and I am Grateful to them for the fact they did what they could do do not misunderstand me But I don't think it changed their life They went back to school the next weekend They graduated from the program They weren't testifying they had to have counseling as a result of this I'm saying the people whose heart were broken the people who missed Dan and loved him the most The people who loved him the most I would I cry with them because we know
[02:32:26] Speaker 3: Sorry, did you just testify and say that the person who literally tried to save his life was not negatively affected by this?
[02:32:33] Speaker 6: No, I said she went on with her life that she didn't I did not say that she had a horrible experience I said I was empathetic to that experience But I also know that she wasn't crying that day in court because of that She was crying because she had had a terrible experience and it affected her with bad memories But it did not stop her life. Her life went on Her life she went back to school. She graduated with the program You know, it stopped my life. It stopped the Brophy's life There were students he had whose life had stopped and and co-workers he had who were truly truly Broken hearted miss brophy, did you listen to the testimony of clarinda perez? I did and i've heard it three times now The first time she told me I cried this because she told me in person every time she's been on the stand clarinda perez has sobbed and sobbed and I am sympathetic every time she does it. I know she went through a terrible experience but She's not crying for dan. She's crying for the terrible experience. She had you mentioned that i'm asking about your feelings
[02:33:45] Speaker 3: Okay, what what let me ask the question again, please you you listened to clarinda perez testify about her experience, right? As she saw dan on the ground She knew cpr She took it upon herself to try to save his life. Yes
[02:34:04] Speaker 6: And failed yes
[02:34:07] Speaker 3: She felt that yes You saw her tell that story on the stand
[02:34:15] Speaker 6: uh-huh
[02:34:17] Speaker 3: It was absolutely devastated about that experience
[02:34:21] Speaker 6: No, I disagree with you entirely on that. I think she had a terrible experience I think that it was a bone jarring experience for her I think she did everything she could and she was proud of the fact and I was proud for her that she did everything she could But when she's crying five years after the fact because it was a terrible experience I think she's crying for the fact she had a horrible experience Not for the fact that dan brophy a man she barely knew died
[02:34:50] Speaker 3: Keep mentioning that we're going to play what's uh marked as state's exhibit 116 Yes The play just real briefly and have you identify the voice
[02:35:24] Speaker 5: So far they haven't covered anything
[02:35:27] Speaker 3: What does that sound like?
[02:35:29] Speaker 6: Well, i'm also looking where it says call to care sarah sarah gitchell so i'm assuming that's sarah gitchell
[02:35:35] Speaker 3: Who's the voice that you hear? Yes, that's my voice. That's your voice. Yes. This is a phone call that you made to sarah gitchell could be yes That's what it says. Okay. Why don't we go and go back to the beginning? Play that
[02:35:51] Speaker 5: So far they haven't covered anything that we didn't know i mean they had all these little girls who cried today uh You know and i've seen all these little girls well i've seen particularly the uh uh spanish girl cry three times now so you know she cries off cue
[02:36:13] Speaker 6: Didn't i just say essentially that
[02:36:15] Speaker 3: That's your response after hearing these people testify to their experience That's what you thought about that
[02:36:23] Speaker 6: I thought it was interesting that corinda perez when she told me did not cry When she's on the stand she cries and she sobs and she carries on I think she has uh i think she had a terrible terrible experience that i totally totally agree with And i am sympathetic to that but i also think she can cry on cue when she gets on stand Because she didn't cry when she told me she told me and i cried you know when we went to an event that she came up and said I am the person who did cpr and i immediately burst into tears You know and she told me the story and i told her how wonderful i thought she was you know that she had done that
[02:37:05] Speaker 3: But you seem to be a couple steps ahead of me throughout this you're expecting this
[02:37:12] Speaker 6: I don't know if expecting that is what i would say But i'm sorry i'll try and uh be quieter
[02:37:20] Speaker 3: When you you keep saying clarinda perez over and over and you keep mentioning her name In this audio you don't actually say clarinda perez Okay Is she the one you're referring to when you say the spanish girl
[02:37:32] Speaker 6: I think she is i don't think the others were spanish but they could have been okay
[02:37:37] Speaker 3: And isn't it did you see clarinda perez at the farm yard I'm sorry about the name but the farm yard memorial in august that's where she told me Okay, isn't it true that when she came up to you and tried to talk to you you actually ignored her
[02:37:52] Speaker 6: No, it's not
[02:37:57] Speaker 3: Dr warford testified and called you a problem solver would you agree with that?
[02:38:02] Speaker 6: I think on my feet yes
[02:38:05] Speaker 3: It's true You're not a lawyer right no you got a lot of lawyers in your family true including some of them that practice criminal defense
[02:38:14] Speaker 6: yes
[02:38:19] Speaker 3: Ms brophy do you know where i can go in the metro area to rent night vision goggles
[02:38:26] Speaker 6: I have no idea
[02:38:28] Speaker 3: You know if there's a place i can go where i can just try them out handle them
[02:38:32] Speaker 6: I have no idea
[02:38:34] Speaker 3: But you bought a pair
[02:38:36] Speaker 6: I had a person who worked for me who took a loan from me and that was what he used for collateral He paid the loan back he got the night vision goggles back
[02:38:45] Speaker 3: Sorry the line of questioning with your lawyer was things that you had purchased in order to further your writing
[02:38:51] Speaker 6: It could have yes, I can see that but But in a way I purchased it if he had not come back and reclaimed it Uh, they would have been mine
[02:39:04] Speaker 3: We heard from a few of your writer friends that are quite successful Lots of published books and make a decent living um That's not true for you though, right?
[02:39:14] Speaker 6: I No, I I started most of those people started being published About five years earlier than I did and I have not been successful I have had I have sold books But I have not sold enough books to make me break out and have people say hey This is an author I remember but considering that with the advent of amazon that 10 000 Uh books get published every month is now harder to do that than it's been in the past
[02:39:47] Speaker 3: Right and you're actually a self-published awesome. I am Have you ever been published besides yourself? Yes, I have what book was that?
[02:39:55] Speaker 6: It was a book called sex in the office. It was published by Black lace publishing and it was part of an anthology
[02:40:04] Speaker 3: When was that?
[02:40:15] Speaker 6: The 2005 maybe 2006 somewhere in there Not much success after that, I I would say publishing changed and uh uh I wouldn't say I would say it differently. I would say I didn't get into romance writers With the idea that uh of being published that was never my goal. My goal was to write because I like to write Friends like salute said no You need to write toward getting published and we were friends long enough that I wrote toward getting published
[02:40:55] Speaker 3: When did you start writing?
[02:41:01] Speaker 6: I can't remember time. I haven't written whole life whole life
[02:41:06] Speaker 3: and When we talk about being published There's been some questions to you about this witches book or which is trilogy that you wrote Um in this email that you got
[02:41:20] Speaker 6: That was from a publisher. That was from an uh a um
[02:41:26] Speaker 3: Agent an agent so not a publisher. That's right. There's an agent asking to see More of the writing so they could determine whether they were going to be interested in purchasing it, correct? That's true. No, no, no, they weren't
[02:41:39] Speaker 6: No An agent uh acts as your go between a lot of editors won't look at your work without an agent
[02:41:47] Speaker 3: So nobody was actually telling you they were buying that book?
[02:41:49] Speaker 6: Nobody was telling me that no
[02:41:51] Speaker 3: How many people do you think you sent that Manuscript to
[02:41:56] Speaker 6: I didn't send the manuscript to many people, but I queried a lot of people You didn't send that manuscript to At best I send a chapter editors Agents don't want to have you send their manuscript unrequested if you send a little bit of the writing They look at it and say yes, we're interested in this story. No, we're not
[02:42:17] Speaker 3: I'm not an author, so I don't necessarily I might be using the wrong terminology, so feel free to correct me You've sent a sample a piece of the story to how many people do you think oh?
[02:42:29] Speaker 6: Oh, I probably sent it out to uh
[02:42:32] Speaker 3: 10 to 20 you got rejected from all of them. Yes You got this one email about somebody who may be interested, right? You didn't respond to that email
[02:42:43] Speaker 6: Yes, I did Where's that? Ah, I sent them the manuscript Where's that? What do you mean? Where is it? It went magically by uh email to her I A few months later if you look down the road you'll see that uh she sent me a rejection letter And I would guess based upon what I know about this that it would take her 90 days to do that
[02:43:13] Speaker 3: Testified yesterday that you didn't know anything about guns So you had to do some research that's true And that began in 2017
[02:43:30] Speaker 6: That began with this particular story in 2017 You actually know quite a bit about guns before that right? I wrote heroes that operated with guns But where I would get into trouble because I didn't write in depth about guns like for example in 2015 I did a lot of research on dirty bombs and on Plastic explosives like c4 and so uh So you research what you need I hadn't really needed I could pass guns off in By throwing out equipment uh equipment stuff I could talk about flashbangs and I could talk about this So it sounded like my guys were in it You know romance writers don't need a technical description I'm not tom clancy what they need is a uh Enough believable things that they can get by now when you're writing a book about guns and putting it together You need information about guns But for the most part and in that book I needed information about how c4 worked and what a string of pearls were and um Things like that I needed information I've researched navy seals because several of my hero heroes were Leaving the military and they had been navy seals
[02:44:50] Speaker 3: Right, but when you say things to the police like oh the shooter thingy I mean you have more knowledge than that. I have more knowledge than that
[02:44:59] Speaker 6: But the sugar shooter thingy is when your husband has just died and your words are leaving you The shoot I would have said the shooter thingy when I was stressed You know, I talked to myself in that video. I say Nancy this is this. I don't talk to myself in third person I haven't gone over the bin that far and yet I listen to myself in that thing and I think Whoa, you I was stressed as hell that I'm talking to myself in third person
[02:45:30] Speaker 3: 2015 you wrote and self-published a book called the wrong husband, correct? I did on page 231 of that book It says austin counted to 25 Slid out from his hiding place and fired six shots into the body on the bed At the seventh squeeze of the trigger the gun clicked no more bullets Okay, that sound right? Yes, you wrote that yes In 2015 also i'm sorry in 2017 you wrote a in self-published a book called the wrong seal Yes on page 178 of that book It says slowly she eased the gun out of her pocket and propped the barrel on the branch Each shot had to count does that sound right?
[02:46:06] Speaker 8: That sounds right something you wrote
[02:46:08] Speaker 6: Yes, but you notice none of that required any in-depth knowledge in january 2015
[02:46:13] Speaker 3: You self-published a book called hell on the heart I did on page 4064 It says the gun fired the force of the projectile entering her body rocketed her backward
[02:46:25] Speaker ?: You recall that?
[02:46:26] Speaker 6: I'm pretty sure there was not 4,000 words in that but 4,000 pages in that book
[02:46:31] Speaker 3: I'm sorry I might have the page numbers wrong I'm sure you're right I don't think you wrote that lengthy of a book Also in that book you wrote instead a darkened window descended in the barrel of a gun sparkled in the sunlight And the shot was loud does that sound right? Could be Later on in that book you actually talk about a glock specifically you say dare emerged his glock in his hands But pointed toward the ground that sound right?
[02:47:02] Speaker 6: Yes And I as long as we're on that you ask or somebody asked the question sorry
[02:47:09] Speaker 3: Also in that book you talk about a glock again Instinctively john counted each shot while pulling his glock free of his shoulder holster You wrote all that As a writer is it true That you spend a lot of time thinking about murder
[02:47:30] Speaker 6: Oh yeah When you're romantic suspense somebody's dying
[02:47:37] Speaker 3: You also consequently Think about police procedure quite a bit is that right?
[02:47:43] Speaker 6: Yes and no I mean I have wrote that and I know what you're quoting me on but I think less about police procedure and more about Because with the exception of only one book Do I really talk about police? Most of the Most of my stories were frankly about the same thing but But police procedure is not I don't go through it step by step the only book that I have about cops is the wrong cop
[02:48:14] Speaker 3: Right it wasn't necessarily talking about what you were writing about Talking about your thoughts
[02:48:20] Speaker 6: I know I don't think a ton about police procedure You know For one thing I would have known more if I was paying attention in this case this case has taught me a lot That I will never be able to use again but it's taught me a lot about police procedure I had no idea about
[02:48:40] Speaker 3: You've obtained books regarding police procedure is that right?
[02:48:45] Speaker 6: I have research books on Any number of things but police procedure I don't really think would be the thing I've attended classes where they talked about police procedure
[02:48:55] Speaker 3: Right you took that class with uh Miss smith out in clacking i'm sorry washington county
[02:49:01] Speaker 6: They didn't talk about police procedure then I mean they may have been some references to it But they talked about what does the sheriff's county do And what does each department do and how are they working within the community? It was it was an interesting class it taught me a lot of things but it was More it was for the benefit of the washington county public relations you know that shows we are working in a different way Than you think we're working and it was very effective because I was dazzled by some of the things that they said
[02:49:33] Speaker 3: And as a romance writer and thinking about murder and police procedure You also consider what motives people might have is that correct?
[02:49:40] Speaker 6: Yes, because I don't think people murder willy-nilly unless you're a professional hitman I think lots of people who say things like uh I would never murder anybody And I say it's between you and your child It's him or it's your child What would you do and I would bet money that that's all of a sudden their ideas of I would never murder anybody might radically change
[02:50:05] Speaker 3: Would you agree that financial reasons is a big reason people might murder
[02:50:13] Speaker 6: Yes, but I don't ever write about that I mean I think financial is a big reason
[02:50:18] Speaker 3: And do you agree that divorce is expensive and may not result in you getting anything or much
[02:50:26] Speaker 6: Divorce is expensive I don't think that is a mystery to anybody here, but I don't think that It might result in you're not getting anything Uh, you know real frankly, I suspect that you will get half of what you have you know sure
[02:50:44] Speaker 3: And as a romance writer and thinking about these things um You you know that people might consider using guns or knives or or poison to commit a murder is that right weapons yeah And you also would if somebody were to ask you you advise against them Of considering a hitman because you're bringing somebody else into your
[02:51:06] Speaker 6: How many lifetime stories have we seen where the girl hires a hitman to kill her husband and lo and behold the hitman turns out to be an fbi agent? You know, I think that's a stopped on theme
[02:51:18] Speaker 3: Right You actually find it easier to wish people dead instead of actually killing them correct?
[02:51:24] Speaker 6: Oh, yeah, I mean it's so much easier to say Than to actually do anything because by the time you're over being annoyed at them you're over being thinking they uh, you know need to have bodily harm
[02:51:38] Speaker 3: My last question to you miss brophy is if there's one thing that you Know about murder is it that
[02:51:46] Speaker 6: Anyone is capable of doing it. I absolutely believe that And I believe that because once again if it's your child Or the person in front of you 10 to 1 you will find yourself capable of murder I think most people don't murder for flimsy reasons. I think people get pushed into a corner where they have no other options I think people murder because they're protecting somebody they love I think people murder. Well, there's some mercy killings perhaps where people murder to save The person they love pain, but I think that's rare. I think people murder in rage I don't think people murder because they say well, you know, we'll just sneak down and uh Do this quickly, you know, I think if you're going to murder somebody 10 to 1 that person knows that you are not happy with them You know, I don't think that should come as a mystery, you know to anybody I don't think people murder willy-nilly out of the uh Just because you know, yeah financial reasons a big reason but going back to my case There's not enough financial reason there to make it I do better with dan alive financially than I do with dan dead. There's no financial gain here You know, we had solved our problem. I turned the book into an editor and I said Well, they had a problem here in october of 2017, but they had solved it But then she murdered him in 2018 when they had solved their financial problem Where is the motivation? I would ask you You know an editor would laugh and say I think you need to work harder on this story You have kind of a big hole in it. You know I think people murder out of anger more than anything else
[02:53:33] Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask everyone to stop there. It's now noon. We'll take our lunch break and we'll be back at 1 30.
[02:53:39] Speaker ?: Okay, all night you you you you You You You You Thank you.