Murdaugh Murder Trial: FULL cross examination of Alex Murdaugh

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: This examination, police court, Mr. Murdoch, let's start with a few things I think we can agree on. All right, sir. You agree that the most important part of your testimony here today is explaining your life for a year and a half that you were never down at those kennels at 844. Would you agree with that? [00:00:26] Speaker 2: I think all of my testimony is important, Mr. Waters. [00:00:30] Speaker 1: Would you agree that that's an important part of your testimony? [00:00:33] Speaker 2: Sure. [00:00:34] Speaker 1: All right. And would you also agree that the first time that law enforcement officers that you've talked to and the prosecution and here in open court ever heard you say that you lied about being in the kennels was today in this court? [00:00:55] Speaker 2: Yes, I'm aware of that. [00:00:57] Speaker 1: You would agree with that? [00:00:58] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:00:59] Speaker ?: All right. [00:01:00] Speaker 1: All this time later, this is the first time you've ever said that? [00:01:03] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:01:07] Speaker 1: And you would agree with me that for years you were stealing money from clients? [00:01:16] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. I agree with that. [00:01:18] Speaker 1: And that you were stealing from your law firm? [00:01:21] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. I agree with that. [00:01:22] Speaker 1: And that had been going on since at least 2010? [00:01:28] Speaker 2: I'm not sure of the exact date, but it's been going on a long time. I'll agree with that. All right. [00:01:31] Speaker 1: What's your best guess of the date? I'm not sure. [00:01:33] Speaker 2: I don't take a dispute with 2010. I just don't know that for sure. [00:01:37] Speaker 1: All right. I'm sure about a lot of things, but you don't know that. Is that correct? [00:01:43] Speaker 2: I'm fine with that date, Mr. Waters. I don't have any reason to dispute it. I'm just not certain of it. [00:01:51] Speaker 1: All right. Let's just keep on things that we may be able to agree about. And let's talk first about your family's legacy here in the legal profession, okay? [00:02:08] Speaker 2: Talk about anything you want to. [00:02:09] Speaker 1: Good. Tell me about your great-grandfather. Was he the solicitor for the very circuit that we're in? [00:02:18] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:02:19] Speaker 1: And what was his name? [00:02:20] Speaker 2: Randolph Murdoch, Sr. [00:02:22] Speaker ?: All right. [00:02:23] Speaker 1: What did he go by? Do you know? [00:02:26] Speaker 2: Randolph. [00:02:27] Speaker 1: Randolph. And did you ever get to know him, or did he pass before? [00:02:31] Speaker 2: Oh, no, sir. He got killed in 1940. [00:02:33] Speaker 1: And how long was he solicitor? [00:02:35] Speaker 2: 20 years. [00:02:36] Speaker 1: 20 years? [00:02:38] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:02:38] Speaker 1: And then your grandfather, who was that? [00:02:41] Speaker 2: Randolph Murdoch, Jr. [00:02:43] Speaker 1: All right. And did he go by? What did he go by? [00:02:45] Speaker 2: Buster. That's who Buster is named after. And was he solicitor? Yes, sir. He was the solicitor for 46 years. From 1940, he took over when my great-granddaddy got killed, and he served until 1986. He was the longest-serving prosecutor in the country. [00:03:07] Speaker 1: And you knew him, obviously, well. He was your grandfather, correct? [00:03:10] Speaker 2: Oh, I knew him extremely well and loved him dearly. [00:03:14] Speaker 1: Idolized him, did you not? [00:03:17] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:03:19] Speaker 1: So he was the chief prosecutor for all that time as well. Is that correct? [00:03:24] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:03:24] Speaker 1: And then your father, Mr. Randolph, he became solicitor not long after that. Is that correct? [00:03:33] Speaker 2: When my grandfather retired, because you weren't allowed to be solicitor after age 72, my dad took over, filled his unexpired term, and then he ran. [00:03:47] Speaker 1: And he became the chief prosecutor for this area right here as well? [00:03:50] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:03:51] Speaker 1: And how long was he solicitor? [00:03:54] Speaker 2: From 1986 until 2006. [00:04:00] Speaker 1: Until 2006? Yes, sir. I actually worked a case with him about a guy who killed a trooper. [00:04:10] Speaker 2: He's a fine, fine, fine man. Yes, he was. An excellent lawyer. [00:04:13] Speaker 1: Yes, he was. And he was an excellent lawyer, right? [00:04:16] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:04:17] Speaker 1: That's a big part of your family legacy and your heritage that's so ingrained around here is that history of being the chief prosecutor and being part of the central part of the legal community. Is that correct? Would you agree with that? [00:04:33] Speaker 2: That my family's been a central part of the legal community? Yes, sir. I agree with that. [00:04:38] Speaker 1: And not only just the central part of the legal community, but the chief prosecutor for this area since 1910, I think, up until 2006? [00:04:49] Speaker 2: 1920. [00:04:51] Speaker 1: 1920. [00:04:52] Speaker 2: 1910 is when my great-grandfather started the law firm. The law firm. Yes, sir. [00:04:59] Speaker 1: All right. So 1920 to 2006, correct? [00:05:04] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:05:05] Speaker 1: An unbroken chain of being the chief prosecutor here, correct? [00:05:08] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:05:09] Speaker 1: And then you went to law school as well, is that right? [00:05:12] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:05:13] Speaker 1: And when did you graduate from law school? [00:05:15] Speaker 2: 1994. [00:05:17] Speaker 1: 1994. And did you ever become a full-time solicitor? [00:05:22] Speaker 2: No, sir. [00:05:24] Speaker ?: All right. [00:05:25] Speaker 1: And so you went into private practice, I think, with Molson Kuhn, is that right? [00:05:29] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:05:30] Speaker 1: 1994. And then you went to the former law firm that no longer exists because of your activities, correct? [00:05:35] Speaker 2: I started in 1994. [00:05:36] Speaker 1: Answer my question, if you would, please, first. [00:05:38] Speaker 2: What was your question? [00:05:39] Speaker 1: My question was that you started first with Molson Kuhn. Go ahead and answer that one. [00:05:44] Speaker 2: Yes, that's correct. [00:05:45] Speaker 1: And then you went to the law firm that doesn't exist anymore that started in 19, but it doesn't exist anymore because of your activities, correct? [00:05:52] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:05:56] Speaker 1: And as part of that, of your practice, you were a trial lawyer, correct? [00:06:03] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:06:04] Speaker 1: Successful trial lawyer. [00:06:05] Speaker 2: I don't know about your adjective, but I was, you know, I guess so, yes, sir. [00:06:14] Speaker 1: Did you make millions of dollars in legal fees? [00:06:16] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:06:16] Speaker 1: But you won't tell this jury that's successful? [00:06:20] Speaker 2: If that's the criteria, yes, sir, I was successful. [00:06:24] Speaker 1: Well, you won cases, correct? [00:06:25] Speaker 2: I did win cases. [00:06:26] Speaker 1: Settled cases? [00:06:28] Speaker 2: Sure, I settled cases. Okay. [00:06:31] Speaker 1: I heard your former law partner say that you were a successful lawyer. [00:06:36] Speaker 2: I did hear some of them say that. [00:06:40] Speaker 1: I think you even became president of the Trial Lawyers Association. Is that right? [00:06:45] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:06:46] Speaker 1: And when was that? [00:06:47] Speaker 2: I'm not sure the exact year, but it would have been in the 2015 range, 2014, 15, 16, somewhere in there. [00:06:58] Speaker 1: And in that role, you were kind of the president of the Association of People Who Do Trial Plaintiff's Work, right? [00:07:05] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:07:06] Speaker 1: Who do jury trials, correct? [00:07:09] Speaker 2: Well, that's part of it, right? Yes, sir. That's part of it. [00:07:12] Speaker 1: That's part of it. Sitting down, looking jurors in the eyes, and giving a closing order. Is that right? [00:07:17] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:07:19] Speaker 1: And what kind of cases did you normally do? Just generally what subject matter? [00:07:28] Speaker 2: I did all kinds of cases. I did cases that, I mean, I handled some very big cases. You know, I had a lot of cases where, you know, somebody, their cable company was billing them $20 more than they should have been. And I handled everything from that to the big cases and everything in between. [00:07:54] Speaker 1: All right. So the big cases, tell me about those. Those were typically plaintiff's work, all plaintiff's work, correct, for your big cases? [00:08:01] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:08:04] Speaker 1: Okay. And plaintiff's work is where, or there would be, say, for example, automobile or truck accidents, correct? Were that some of it? [00:08:14] Speaker 2: All, every big case I ever had was an automobile. I mean, no, sir. Not all of them were automobile wrecks. Were many of them? Sure. All right. [00:08:25] Speaker 1: And if they, let's say, your plaintiff collided with, like, a UPS truck or a tractor trailer or something like that, you've had cases like that, correct? I have. And they led to very big recoveries. Is that correct? [00:08:39] Speaker 2: The UPS case did I handle? [00:08:40] Speaker 1: Yeah. [00:08:41] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:08:42] Speaker 1: All right. And as a part of that, developing those types of cases, you were involved in investigating the facts of the case, correct? Yes. And you were involved in gathering, let's say, telemetry data from automobiles, correct? [00:09:05] Speaker 2: Telemetry data, like you presented in this courtroom this week? [00:09:09] Speaker 1: Yeah. You never did that? [00:09:11] Speaker 2: I've never had a case specifically where the type data that y'all have presented in this case that I've used, but I've had data from automobiles. I've had. [00:09:21] Speaker 1: From their, essentially, their computers. [00:09:22] Speaker 2: OnStar data. I've had data from the black box, you know, but specifically telemetry data. I don't believe that I've ever had one of those. [00:09:30] Speaker 1: But OnStar and black box data, correct? [00:09:34] Speaker 2: More so the black box event recorder. I mean, many times in a wreck, the event recorder will go back and tell you things leading up to the wreck. Sure. So, and I've been in numerous cases where those were involved. [00:09:49] Speaker 1: And you've had cases where cell phone evidence was relevant to your case? [00:09:54] Speaker 2: Sure. [00:09:55] Speaker 1: People's call logs were relevant to your case? [00:09:58] Speaker 2: I have had those. [00:10:00] Speaker 1: Cell tower location was relevant to your case? [00:10:03] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:10:04] Speaker 1: Computer evidence was relevant to your case? [00:10:09] Speaker 2: I'm sure I have, yes. [00:10:15] Speaker 1: And when'd you start with the law firm? [00:10:22] Speaker 2: August of September of 1998. [00:10:27] Speaker 1: And you've been doing essentially that kind of work, more or less, up until September of 2021, correct? [00:10:36] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:10:39] Speaker 1: To the point where you rose to be the president of the Trial Lawyers Association. [00:10:44] Speaker 2: I was the president of the Trial Lawyers Association in around 2015, as we discussed. [00:10:50] Speaker 1: So, can we agree now on successful? [00:10:53] Speaker 2: I mean, by those criteria, I was successful, certainly. I mean, we've talked about a lot of my flaws here today, too. Do I feel like I was successful? I know, sir. I'm not sitting here today, I don't. But if you want to use that term and on those criteria, I don't have any problem with you saying at that time, it looked like I was successful. [00:11:12] Speaker 1: Do you think people viewed you as a successful lawyer? [00:11:16] Speaker 2: I'm sure there were a lot of people that did. [00:11:19] Speaker 1: Do you think people viewed your family as very prominent? [00:11:22] Speaker 2: I believe that there were a lot of people that did, yes, sir. [00:11:25] Speaker 1: And did you think that a lot of people viewed you and your family as very prominent in the legal community here? [00:11:31] Speaker 2: I never thought of myself as prominent. [00:11:33] Speaker 1: I asked you if you thought people viewed you that way. At the time, did I think people viewed you that way? Yeah, prior to everything happening. [00:11:42] Speaker 2: No, I don't think that I thought people viewed me as prominent. No, sir. I mean, like a big shot? No, sir, I don't think that. [00:11:51] Speaker 1: What about your family? [00:11:53] Speaker 2: Did my family thought we were big shots? No, sir, I definitely don't think that. [00:11:56] Speaker 1: Do your family as prominent in this community? [00:12:00] Speaker 2: Prominent? Yes. As in? [00:12:03] Speaker 1: It's not a hard question. [00:12:05] Speaker 2: Well, I'm just not sure. You know, I think my family was very well thought of. I think my family was respected. I think my family helped a lot of people. [00:12:18] Speaker 1: I'm not challenging you on any of that. I'm just getting you to agree what seems to be a basic fact. Would you agree with that? [00:12:23] Speaker 2: With what? That my family helped a lot of people and was well thought of? Very prominent. If that's what you mean by that, yes, sir. [00:12:31] Speaker 1: And that your family had a very long association with law enforcement? [00:12:36] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:12:37] Speaker 1: And you had a long association with law enforcement? [00:12:42] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:12:42] Speaker 1: Yes. [00:12:45] Speaker 2: By association, I assume you're talking about friendships? Yeah. [00:12:50] Speaker 1: But not only just friendships, but also professional as well, correct? As a prosecutor? Professional associations with law enforcement. [00:12:57] Speaker 2: As a prosecutor or as a civil attorney? [00:13:00] Speaker 1: Okay. Let's talk about civil. Did you have associations with them in civil cases? [00:13:04] Speaker 2: Sure. I mean, as we discussed, a lot of cases that I handled were wreck cases or it might be a train wreck or a track to trail, but there were a lot of highway patrolmen involved. There were a lot of local law enforcement involved. So, yeah, we dealt with a lot of law enforcement in the civil practice. [00:13:20] Speaker 1: All right. And then you also mentioned that you were a prosecutor as well, correct? [00:13:27] Speaker 2: I was a volunteer assistant solicitor. All right. [00:13:30] Speaker 1: Did you or your family or your law firm ever have events or parties or social affairs in which the law enforcement community in this area was invited? [00:13:44] Speaker 2: I mean, sure. The law firm itself didn't really sponsor things like that, but there would be occasions where one of us in the law firm, and certainly we all had a lot of friends in law enforcement, and they were always invited. [00:14:05] Speaker 1: Okay. And it's a simple point. You had a lot of friends in law enforcement, your family, and you had a long association with the law enforcement community in this circuit. Is that correct? [00:14:16] Speaker 2: Association being friendships and working relationships, absolutely. [00:14:20] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:14:22] Speaker 1: All right. Well, let's talk about being a prosecutor. When did you become an assistant solicitor? [00:14:27] Speaker 2: I believe that I became an assistant solicitor when I moved from Beaufort to Hampton. All right. So that would have been sometime around September 1998. It might have been a little bit after that, but sometime. [00:14:41] Speaker 1: Did you get a badge when you became an assistant solicitor? [00:14:45] Speaker 2: At some point, I did, yes, sir. [00:14:46] Speaker 1: And who gave you that badge? [00:14:49] Speaker 2: My father. [00:14:51] Speaker 1: Mr. Randolph? [00:14:52] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:14:54] Speaker 1: And over the years, did you prosecute criminal cases, much as what's going on here today? [00:15:01] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. At times, I did. And? I believe that I prosecuted from 1998 to 2001. I believe that I... 2001? [00:15:12] Speaker 1: Keep going. I'm sorry. [00:15:14] Speaker 2: I mean, 2021. I'm sorry. Until 2021. From 1998 to 2021, I believe I was involved in five jury... I believe there were five trials. Five trials? It was the best that I can remember. And all with my dad. That was really the purpose of me being an assistant solicitor, was getting to spend time with him, do things with him. [00:15:37] Speaker 1: Sure. And you... Five jury trials over all that time, but you had a badge that entire time, is that correct? [00:15:43] Speaker 2: I had a badge for a big part of that time, yes, sir. [00:15:46] Speaker 1: You actually had two badges, right? [00:15:47] Speaker 2: I had one badge, but when my granddad became an assistant solicitor for my dad, when my dad became the solicitor, he had an assistant solicitor's badge. [00:16:01] Speaker 1: Right. [00:16:02] Speaker 2: When he passed away, I had his badge, and that was one of... At some point in time, you were asking somebody about two badges, and that was the other badge. [00:16:13] Speaker 1: I got you. You said you did five criminal jury trials as a prosecutor, correct? [00:16:21] Speaker 2: Assisted in those, or was doing them, yes, sir. I believe I was actually the lead lawyer in one of them. I helped my dad and the other four. [00:16:30] Speaker 1: Still a part of preparing the case? Yes, sir. Still a part of gathering the evidence and putting it together for trial? [00:16:38] Speaker 2: In a criminal case, we didn't do much of the gathering of the evidence. We took what law enforcement had gathered, but... [00:16:47] Speaker 1: But putting it together for the criminal trial, correct? [00:16:50] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:16:51] Speaker 1: Presenting evidence in court? [00:16:52] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:16:53] Speaker 1: Giving jury argument? [00:16:56] Speaker 2: I did the closing argument in one of them, yes, sir. [00:17:00] Speaker 1: Did you ever have any cases that you prosecuted that went short of a jury trial, either pled out or were dismissed for some reason? [00:17:10] Speaker 2: You know, I'm sure that at some point over between 1998 and 2021 that I took some plea, but as we sit here today, I can't specifically remember that, and I don't ever remember working a case up for trial that didn't go to trial. But I'm sure at some point in time, I was involved in some level on a guilty plea, or guilty pleas. [00:17:38] Speaker 1: And you'd agree with me that the civil system and the criminal system have a lot of differences, correct? [00:17:43] Speaker 2: A lot of differences and a lot of similarities. [00:17:46] Speaker 1: And a lot of similarities, and that's where I was going next. Fundamentally, it's about analyzing the evidence, preparing for trial, presenting that case, and making your argument to the jury, correct? [00:17:59] Speaker 2: That's a big part of it. [00:18:00] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:18:03] Speaker 1: And would you agree with me that as cases go on, or as you are preparing for trial, that you analyze the evidence that's been gathered by law enforcement and present the evidence that supports your case, correct? That's just part of it. [00:18:24] Speaker 2: Presenting evidence that you deem favorable for your position? [00:18:27] Speaker 1: Yeah. That you analyze the evidence, and then you put in the evidence that supports your case. It's an ongoing process. Yeah. Do you agree with that? [00:18:33] Speaker 2: That's part of what you did. [00:18:35] Speaker 1: And same thing in the civil case, right? As you go along, you may have evidence, but you ultimately analyze that evidence, and some evidence makes the cut, and some of it does not. Is that fair to say? [00:18:49] Speaker 2: As far as what you're trying to—I think we agree on that. [00:18:53] Speaker ?: It's a simple question. [00:18:53] Speaker 1: We would agree on that. [00:18:54] Speaker 2: I think so. I'm not exactly sure what your question is, but I think I understand it. [00:18:59] Speaker 1: I'm just asking you that as a lawyer, as you've been since 1994, is that right? [00:19:05] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:19:06] Speaker 1: It's a simple question. You analyze the evidence that's been gathered, whether civil or criminal, and then present that in court. Is that correct? [00:19:14] Speaker 2: Yes. That's part of what you did. [00:19:16] Speaker 1: And that is an ongoing process as you prepare for a case. Is that correct? [00:19:21] Speaker 2: An ongoing process as you prepare for—in criminal courts or civil courts? Either one. Well, I mean, but there's a distinction, because in civil court, you have the deadlines, and so you aren't allowed to gather evidence during a trial, or a week before a trial, or, you know, for instance, if this was a civil trial, and we found that ONSTAR data during the third or fourth week of trial, you wouldn't be able to use it, because you're past deadlines. But in a criminal case, you are able to use it. [00:19:53] Speaker 1: But you would agree that none of that was the fault of anyone on this side of the table? That GM initially responded they had nothing, and then responded all of a sudden that they did? [00:20:04] Speaker 2: I don't have an opinion, and that's certainly not anything I'm intending to convey. [00:20:08] Speaker 1: You talk to this jury a lot about that, but you know nothing about that particular part of it. Is that what you're telling us? You talk to the jury a lot about the GM data, but you're telling me that you're unaware that GM initially responded to law enforcement's timely request and said they didn't have that, but then in the course of the trial, all of a sudden came up and said, you know what, we found something, and that's the reason why it arrived late. You're saying you don't know anything about that after talking to this jury about that? [00:20:35] Speaker 2: I don't know a single thing about that. I know that y'all represented that to the court, and I don't have any reason to doubt it. But I don't... [00:20:44] Speaker 1: And you would agree that that's generally consistent with the telemetry data that the FBI did, correct? The OnStar data? [00:20:55] Speaker 2: The OnStar... I think the OnStar data and the telemetry data are totally different. [00:20:59] Speaker 1: All right, you don't think they're generally consistent with one another. Is that what you're telling the jury? [00:21:04] Speaker 2: No, I'm not telling the jury anything about that. I'm just saying, do I think they're consistent? I think they're telling... I think the OnStar data gives you one set of information, and the telemetry data gives you another set of information. Okay. [00:21:24] Speaker 1: But you don't think they're consistent? I mean, you talk about it to this jury. I think we're struggling on what seems to be a fairly simple point. Don't you agree? [00:21:40] Speaker 2: Mr. Warden, I'm just trying to answer your question. And so I'm not trying to be difficult. My understanding of what you're referring to as the telemetry data is when the car goes into park and drive and that sort of thing. Is that what you're referring to? [00:21:56] Speaker 1: Yes. [00:21:57] Speaker 2: And the GPS information is telling you where a vehicle is on a certain path. [00:22:02] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:22:03] Speaker 2: And what direction it's going. So I think that there are two different types of information. [00:22:10] Speaker 1: The question was, were they consistent with one another? [00:22:14] Speaker 2: I guess so. I don't think they contradict each other. [00:22:18] Speaker 1: All right. Thank you. [00:22:20] Speaker 2: All right. [00:22:25] Speaker 1: You were the breadwinner for your family, correct? For your immediate family? [00:22:28] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:22:30] Speaker 1: And that included, obviously, for Maggie, correct? [00:22:35] Speaker 2: I'm sorry? [00:22:36] Speaker 1: That included for Maggie, correct? [00:22:37] Speaker 2: Absolutely. [00:22:39] Speaker 1: And in large measure for Buster and Paul as well. Would you agree with that? [00:22:46] Speaker 2: Did I was the breadwinner? [00:22:47] Speaker 1: The primary breadwinner, yes. [00:22:50] Speaker 2: No, I was their source of income for Maggie, Buster, and Paul. [00:22:59] Speaker 4: Okay. [00:23:00] Speaker 2: I mean, I guess as they got older, I mean, there's some point where Buster had a job, but I mean, I would still consider myself the provider for them at that time. Okay. [00:23:19] Speaker 1: Again, there's no trick here. I'm just trying to ask a simple question. [00:23:22] Speaker 2: Mr. Waters, I don't think that was a trick. Okay. [00:23:25] Speaker 1: So you were the primary breadwinner. We can agree on that. [00:23:29] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:23:30] Speaker 1: Go ahead. Give me one second. Give me one second. All right, I'm going to show you what's been marked as states 570 and see if you recognize this particular item. You can go ahead and take it out of the bag. [00:24:16] Speaker 2: All right, sir. [00:24:16] Speaker 1: You know what that is? Yes, sir. That's 571? [00:24:22] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:24:23] Speaker 1: All right. And then I'm going to show you what was in the bag in 570. Can you tell me what that is? [00:24:26] Speaker 2: I can. [00:24:27] Speaker 1: All right. What is that? [00:24:28] Speaker 2: Which one? [00:24:30] Speaker 1: 570. What is that? [00:24:31] Speaker 2: All right. 571 is what I would consider to be my badge. [00:24:36] Speaker 1: All right. And then what is this one right here, which is 570? [00:24:39] Speaker 2: Okay. 570 would be the one I told you about was my grandfather's badge after he retired, when he became an assistant for my dad. [00:24:48] Speaker 1: Your Honor, this time I'd offer states 571 and 570 in the evidence. You're admitted. All right. Where did you keep 570, the one that was your grandfather's? [00:25:03] Speaker 2: It didn't have a single place that it was kept. [00:25:07] Speaker 1: You know where it was recovered by law enforcement? [00:25:09] Speaker 2: No, sir. [00:25:10] Speaker 1: Would you dispute if it was recovered out of the Mercedes you were driving on September 4th, the day of the side of the road incident? [00:25:16] Speaker 2: No, I believe that. [00:25:19] Speaker 1: Can I have the elbow, please? Can I have the screen, please? And 571, where did you keep this one? [00:25:44] Speaker 2: Usually in my car. Where in your car? It could be on the dash, like you were talking to Mark Ball about. It could be in the center console. It could be in the cup holder. It could be on the seat. Usually in the front seat, but in my car is where I tried to keep it. [00:26:02] Speaker 1: All right. And when you had it in your dash, would you have it face up or face down? [00:26:09] Speaker 2: I didn't have any particular manner in which I stored it anywhere. [00:26:14] Speaker 1: There was no rhyme or reason to it, is what you're telling the jury, how you had it in the dash? [00:26:20] Speaker 2: There may be occasions where I had it in the dash for some particular reason, but there were a lot of times where it probably was in the dash for no particular reason, other than that's where I put it, just like I put it on the seat or in the cup holder. All right. [00:26:44] Speaker 1: You said there were particular reasons why you might put it in the dash. What would those reasons be? [00:26:54] Speaker 2: It could be any number of things. If I'm going somewhere where I want somebody to see it, then I would put it in the dash. If there's another reason for somebody to see it, like, for instance, if I get pulled over, I might have it in the cup holder so an officer could see it when he walked up. [00:27:19] Speaker 1: Now, why would you do that? Why would you have it in the cup holder? You're not saying you were on official business, are you? [00:27:24] Speaker 2: No, I'm not saying I'm on official business. [00:27:27] Speaker 1: Why would you want it in a cup holder if you got pulled over? [00:27:34] Speaker 2: Because I've found that law enforcement oftentimes is friendlier when you're in law enforcement. [00:27:43] Speaker 1: When you're in law enforcement. So you considered yourself law enforcement? [00:27:49] Speaker 2: No, sir. I can't say that I considered myself law enforcement. [00:27:53] Speaker 1: Well, you carried a badge on you as an assistant solicitor for two decades, roughly? From around 98, so yes, sir, for two decades. And you would ride with it, sometimes sitting in the front dash facing out, correct? [00:28:09] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:28:09] Speaker 1: And you would put it in the cup holder so that law enforcement would see you if you got pulled over, right? [00:28:15] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:28:16] Speaker 1: Okay. So you didn't consider yourself law enforcement? [00:28:19] Speaker 2: I personally didn't consider myself to be law enforcement, no, sir. [00:28:23] Speaker 1: All right. So you were just using having this badge to your advantage and taking license with it. Is that correct? [00:28:30] Speaker 2: I guess in some circumstances, that is accurate. That's correct. [00:28:43] Speaker 1: See if you could use it to get away with something, correct? Get better treatment if you got pulled over. [00:28:50] Speaker 2: Get better treatment if I got pulled over. I mean, that's probably a fair statement. Yeah. If somebody in law enforcement saw that, yeah, I'd say that's true. [00:29:10] Speaker 1: Did you have to take an oath when you got that badge? No, sir. [00:29:14] Speaker 2: You didn't? Not that I remember. I certainly don't recall taking one, like going somewhere and raising my hand. [00:29:25] Speaker 1: Raise your hand and saying, I promise to do my duty, barely and with integrity. You never had to do that? [00:29:32] Speaker 2: Mr. Waters, if I did, I sure don't recall it. I mean, it was a very informal process when I became a volunteer assistant solicitor for my dad. And then when I continued with Duffy, I mean, at some point, you know, if I took any oath at all that I can remember, it would be on some paper that I may have had to sign, but I don't specifically remember doing that. [00:30:04] Speaker 1: Let's talk about it. Let's go back to 571. And on the inside of it, what are those right there? Those are an ID card with your picture on it? Yes, sir, that is. All right. And at the top, on that top, leave it in there if you would, please. Can you not see it? [00:30:25] Speaker 2: I can, but I was just going to see what's on the back. [00:30:27] Speaker 1: Okay. [00:30:29] Speaker 2: All right, sir. [00:30:31] Speaker 1: All right. And it's got your picture on it, got your name on it? Yes, sir, that does have my picture and my name. All right. Put that one back for me, please. [00:30:44] Speaker 2: All right. So you want to look at this top one? [00:30:48] Speaker 1: Look at the top one. Okay. What office does it say that you are on that top one right there, up there at the top? [00:30:56] Speaker 2: State of South Carolina solicitor, the solicitor of the 14th Judicial Circuit. It says that as solicitor of the 14th Judicial Circuit, I do hereby certify that. And it has. [00:31:08] Speaker 5: Your name. [00:31:09] Speaker 2: Right. And it has all that data. [00:31:13] Speaker 1: What position does it say that you're appointed to? [00:31:18] Speaker 2: As the, okay, it says that as solicitor of the 14th Judicial Circuit, I do certify that Richard A. Murdoch was on July 1st, 2013 appointed as the deputy solicitor of Allendale, Beaufort, Colleton, Hampton, and Jasper counties in and is authorized to enforce the laws in the 14th Judicial Circuit of South Carolina. [00:31:41] Speaker 1: All right. Awesome. Can I hold it back? [00:31:43] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. Signed by Duffy Stone. [00:31:46] Speaker 1: Signed by Duffy Stone. So deputy solicitor, is that correct? [00:31:49] Speaker 2: I was never a deputy solicitor, Mr. Waters. That's what that says, but I've never been a deputy solicitor. Unless deputy solicitor is, I was a volunteer assistant solicitor. And as far as I know, Sean Thornton has been the only deputy solicitor that Duffy Stone had. [00:32:07] Speaker 1: And it's a simple point. It says deputy solicitor, but deputy solicitor is a higher rank than assistant solicitor, correct? To your understanding? [00:32:13] Speaker 2: That's what I think. Yeah. And that was Sean Thornton. I've never been deputy solicitor, even though that does say that. All right. I agree with you. And that was signed by Duffy Stone, not by me. [00:32:27] Speaker 1: I understand. This is what was given to you. [00:32:29] Speaker 2: That's what was given to you. [00:32:30] Speaker 1: You went through this whole long thing in the beginning about whether or not you had an association with the law enforcement community, but this was given to you not by your father, but by a successor, correct? [00:32:40] Speaker 2: Well, no, sir. I believe we got to this because you were asking me if I took an oath. And I don't remember taking the oath. And then you started asking me about these things. [00:32:48] Speaker 1: Okay. And you agree that this card says deputy solicitor, right? [00:32:53] Speaker 2: I agree that card says deputy solicitor. [00:32:55] Speaker 1: All right. Would you agree with me that it says on the back that it is proposing special trust and confidence in your ability, care, prudence, and integrity? Is that what it says on the back of this? [00:33:12] Speaker 2: I mean, if you're – no, sir. I mean, I trust if you're reading that off the back of that, I assume that it does. All right. You were reading off of the one that Duffy Stone gave me, correct? [00:33:54] Speaker 1: Yeah. And then the one at the top, where did that one come from? You want me to bring it back to you? [00:33:58] Speaker 2: No, sir. I think I can see it. That would be – [00:34:00] Speaker 1: It's not focused very well. [00:34:02] Speaker 2: That's okay. I mean, I know what it is. I looked at it when you handed it to me. So the card on the bottom is what I got from Duffy Stone. The one on the top – and the one on the top should give you a better – there we go. All right. So the one on the top was what came from my dad when he was solicitor. The one on the bottom is what came from Duffy Stone when he was solicitor. And Duffy Stone took over after my dad retired in 2006. Duffy Stone filled my dad's unexpired – the rest of his unexpired four-year term, much like my dad filled my granddad's. And then Duffy became the solicitor. [00:34:53] Speaker 1: Did you ever have lights in your vehicle? [00:34:57] Speaker 2: In the particular vehicle? No. [00:35:00] Speaker 1: In any vehicle? [00:35:01] Speaker 2: Yes, sir, I did. [00:35:02] Speaker 1: Was that a government vehicle? [00:35:03] Speaker 2: No, sir, it was not. [00:35:05] Speaker 1: When did you have lights, like blue lights and stuff? [00:35:08] Speaker 2: Yes, sir, I had some blue lights. [00:35:09] Speaker 1: When did you have blue lights? And let me remember, you did five cases over 20 years, and you had blue lights in your vehicle. But it was your private vehicle, correct? [00:35:19] Speaker 2: Well, it was the vehicle that I drove. It was a law firm's-owned vehicle. [00:35:24] Speaker 1: The law firm's-owned vehicle. So how did you get blue lights in there? [00:35:27] Speaker 2: I had them installed. [00:35:28] Speaker 1: And who installed them? [00:35:29] Speaker 2: I believe that Eddie Gibson installed them. [00:35:38] Speaker 3: And who was that? [00:35:39] Speaker 2: He's the guy who apparently does blue light work for most of the sheriff's departments in the 14th circuit and a lot of the police departments. [00:35:53] Speaker 1: And did you, when did you have that installed, do you recall? Was it one vehicle or more than one vehicle? I'll start with that. [00:36:02] Speaker 2: I believe I had blue lights in one vehicle. [00:36:06] Speaker 1: And when did you have that installed, do you think? [00:36:08] Speaker 2: I'm not sure. It would have been- [00:36:10] Speaker 1: I mean, five years, ten years? [00:36:12] Speaker 2: No, here I can give you a time frame. [00:36:14] Speaker 1: Okay. [00:36:14] Speaker 2: The vehicle that I was in on, that got taken in on June the 7th, I got that vehicle sometime around late December or January. So I'd had it for six months. I would have had the previous vehicle for five years. That's how long we kept vehicles in the law firm. So I would have had it for five years, and sometime during that five-year period, I had lights installed. [00:36:47] Speaker 1: Did you ask the sheriff at the time if you could do that? I did. Who was that? [00:36:53] Speaker 2: I believe it was T.C. Smalls, and I believe in Colleton it was Andy Strickland. [00:37:01] Speaker 1: In Colleton it was Andy Strickland? [00:37:02] Speaker 2: And I believe in Allendale, it was Tom Carter. [00:37:09] Speaker 1: Were you friends with Andy Strickland? [00:37:11] Speaker 2: Yeah, I was friends with Andy Strickland. [00:37:16] Speaker 1: And you said, hey, I'm going to get some blue lights installed in my vehicle, and he said, that's cool. Or words to that effect? [00:37:23] Speaker 2: I mean, that doesn't sound like the words that he would have used or I would have used, but I certainly asked him, and he certainly said it was okay. [00:37:29] Speaker 1: It was okay. [00:37:30] Speaker 2: All right. Along with Sheriff Smalls, and I believe Sheriff Carter. I'm not positive about Sheriff Carter, but I believe so. [00:37:58] Speaker 1: I'm going to show you just real quick what's been marked as states 507. [00:38:04] Speaker 3: See if you recognize that. [00:38:09] Speaker 2: I believe this is my suburban, yeah, this is my suburban that y'all have. [00:38:21] Speaker 1: Okay. Does that look like where your badge was on the day of the incident? [00:38:27] Speaker 2: I have no idea. [00:38:28] Speaker 1: You don't recall putting it there? [00:38:29] Speaker 2: No, but I don't take issue with the fact that it's there, if that's how they say it was. I found it, and that's a picture. [00:38:41] Speaker 1: Your Honor, I'd offer states 507 in the evidence. Go ahead. Submit it. You testified some about the boat case, and we'll talk more about that later. Boat case, I'm sorry. The boat wreck case, can we agree that that's what we're talking about when we say the boat case, February in 2019? [00:39:24] Speaker 2: Well, there's two things. You refer to the civil case when you say the boat case, but when I think about the boat case, I think about the charges that y'all brought against Pawpaw. Okay. But also the civil case. [00:39:39] Speaker ?: All right. [00:39:41] Speaker 1: Pawpaw, that was your new name for Paul? [00:39:45] Speaker 2: I mean, I called him Pawpaw. Maggie called him Pawpaw. Bus calls him Pawpaw. [00:39:52] Speaker ?: Sure. [00:39:52] Speaker 2: Roro calls him Pawpaw. Roro? [00:39:55] Speaker 1: Who was Roro? [00:39:56] Speaker 2: That's Rogan Gibson. [00:39:58] Speaker 1: Okay. And this jury, of course, has heard multiple recorded statements of you during the course of this. Did you ever refer to Paul as Pawpaw during that? [00:40:10] Speaker 2: I don't know. [00:40:12] Speaker 1: You don't, do you recall? [00:40:15] Speaker 2: How I referred to, I can say Paul if you prefer that. [00:40:19] Speaker 1: No, you can call him whatever you want. I'm just asking you if you ever called him that during the course of that entire investigation. Or is that also the first time today, at least publicly? [00:40:28] Speaker 2: Is today the first time I've called my son, Pawpaw, Pawpaw? No, sir. That is not correct. [00:40:32] Speaker 1: Have you ever called him that on all the recorded statements that this jury has heard? [00:40:37] Speaker 2: I don't know. [00:40:38] Speaker 1: You ever called Rogan Roro in all the recorded statements? All the time. In the recorded statements, did you ever call him that? [00:40:45] Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I called him Rogan also, so I don't know. But I'm happy to call him Rogan, and I'm happy to call Paul Paul. [00:40:58] Speaker 1: All right, well, let's talk about, and I'll be specific, with the boat wreck criminal case and the boat wreck civil case, okay? Is that fair? [00:41:07] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. All right. [00:41:10] Speaker 1: And we've talked a little bit about your badge. Did you have your badge with you on the night of the boat wreck? [00:41:27] Speaker 2: On the night of the boat wreck, did I have it with me? Yeah. When? [00:41:33] Speaker 1: Did you go to the hospital that night? [00:41:35] Speaker 2: I did go to the hospital that night. [00:41:36] Speaker 1: Did you have it with you then? [00:41:41] Speaker 2: I don't know, but I don't believe so. But I really don't know. [00:41:44] Speaker 1: You don't believe so? But when you went to the hospital on the night of the boat wreck, were you acting in any official capacity? [00:41:51] Speaker 2: The night of the – when I went to the hospital, was I acting in an official capacity? [00:41:55] Speaker 5: Yes. [00:41:56] Speaker 2: No, sir. [00:41:57] Speaker 5: Okay. [00:42:25] Speaker 1: I'll show you what's been marked as States 569, and do you recognize the person on the right in that image? [00:42:35] Speaker 2: No, sir. [00:42:37] Speaker 1: You don't recognize that? [00:42:39] Speaker 2: I don't recognize him. No, I'm asking about that. Oh, me? [00:42:43] Speaker 1: Is that you? [00:42:44] Speaker 2: Yeah, it looks like me. [00:42:45] Speaker 1: All right. What's hanging out of your pocket in plain view? [00:42:47] Speaker 2: Looks like a badge. [00:42:49] Speaker 1: You didn't recall that until I just showed you that picture? [00:42:52] Speaker 2: No, sir, I did not. [00:42:53] Speaker 1: Your Honor, I offer States 569 in the evidence. [00:42:56] Speaker 2: Okay. [00:42:57] Speaker 1: Committed. That's you in the white shirt. Is that right? [00:43:10] Speaker 2: Yes, sir, it is. [00:43:12] Speaker 1: And this is the badge hanging out of your pocket? Do you remember which? Is that correct? [00:43:17] Speaker 2: Looks to be, yes, sir. Which badge is that? Which one of the two? Do you remember? No, you can't tell from here. [00:43:22] Speaker 1: Okay. And why'd you have it hanging out of your pocket like that? [00:43:25] Speaker 2: I don't remember having that. I don't know. [00:43:28] Speaker 1: You don't remember that? [00:43:30] Speaker 2: I don't remember that, no, sir. [00:43:32] Speaker 1: Did you generally walk around with the badge hanging out of your pocket? [00:43:36] Speaker 2: Generally speaking, no, sir, I did not. Or only when you wanted some advantage from it? Did I hang it out of my pocket when I wanted an advantage? Yes. I may have. Okay. I certainly may have. [00:43:58] Speaker 1: What advantage did you want? [00:44:01] Speaker 2: When? Then. I don't even recall this, Mr. Waters. But if I was wanting some advantage, as you say it, I guess, and I don't remember this, but I guess I would want, you know, as I said, a badge has a warming effect with other law enforcement. And so if I was seeking any advantage, as you say, then I guess that would be what it was. [00:44:29] Speaker 1: Do you ever want to be the solicitor? [00:44:40] Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a time period where I did. [00:44:44] Speaker 1: Did you ever want to be the solicitor, the elected solicitor? [00:44:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a time period when I absolutely did. When was that? Prior to, around the time my, prior to my dad retiring. [00:45:00] Speaker 1: Prior to 2006? [00:45:02] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:45:04] Speaker 1: How long did you explore that? [00:45:10] Speaker 2: I mean, I really, I wanted to be, I wanted to be a solicitor for a long time. But, you know, at the time when my dad retired, I was already struggling with pills. And I knew I couldn't do it. [00:45:36] Speaker 1: In 2006? [00:45:37] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:45:39] Speaker 1: And we'll talk more about the pills in a bit, but you say you were already struggling with pills in 2006, correct? [00:45:44] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:45:45] Speaker 1: But over that next 15 years, you still were able to maintain a lucrative law practice. Would you agree with that? [00:45:52] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:45:53] Speaker 1: And you've already testified that all your law partners had no idea of this pill problem that you had all that time, correct? [00:46:03] Speaker 2: I'm testifying that I believe, in fact, I'm certain that none of my partners knew I had an addiction. [00:46:20] Speaker 1: That night of the boat wreck, you say you don't remember putting your badge out, correct? [00:46:24] Speaker 2: No, I don't remember, I don't even remember having my badge. [00:46:27] Speaker 1: Do you remember going around talking to the kids, the other kids that were on the boat? [00:46:32] Speaker 2: Yeah, I talked to some of them. [00:46:34] Speaker 1: Do you remember going to do that? Yes. And was your badge hanging out when you did that as well? [00:46:39] Speaker 2: You know, I wouldn't think so, Mr. Waters, but like I say, I didn't, I don't think so. [00:46:46] Speaker 1: So it just comes naturally to put your badge out on something like this that you don't even remember why you did that. [00:46:52] Speaker 2: No, I don't even remember having my badge, and I specifically know that I didn't use the badge. You know, did I mean to do this? I'm not saying that I didn't, but I don't know if I was putting it in my pocket. And the flap, you know, you notice that that flap is not Velcro down. I don't know, I don't have a specific memory of that. And I never went around, you know, acting like I was on official business. [00:47:18] Speaker 1: So you're saying it might be an accident that your badge was hanging out there? [00:47:21] Speaker 2: I'm saying that I have no memory of that whatsoever. [00:47:25] Speaker 1: All right, well, did you ever, you never used these badges as like a wallet, right? [00:47:28] Speaker 2: No, I did. [00:47:29] Speaker 1: You did? I did. So you're saying you had your credit cards and all your stuff in there? [00:47:34] Speaker 2: No, sir, no, sir. I'm not saying that, and I'm not saying that on that night. You just asked me if I ever used it as a wallet, and there were times when I used it as a wallet. [00:47:42] Speaker 1: Were you using it as a wallet that night? [00:47:44] Speaker 2: I don't remember, but I don't think so. I didn't use it as a wallet very often, and I didn't use it as a wallet for very long when I did use it as a wallet. [00:47:53] Speaker 1: All right, so let's see if we can get back to what we agree on. So you would agree that you had to make a conscious decision to grab that badge when you went into the hospital, correct? Would you agree with that? [00:48:04] Speaker 2: Yeah, at some point I had to make a conscious decision to pick it up. [00:48:07] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:48:08] Speaker 1: But you're saying you don't know if you hung it out like that on purpose while you're talking to that law enforcement officer or if it's just an accident that is hanging out of your pocket in full view of everyone. [00:48:17] Speaker 2: Well, I am saying that because that is not how I would normally carry a badge, and even if I wanted to give somebody an impression, to me, that's got kind of an obnoxious look to it. That's just not something that, I mean, that's not something I would typically do. But I may have done it that night. I have no memory of that. [00:48:37] Speaker 1: Okay. All right. So you're saying that just could be an accident that it's hanging out like that? [00:48:43] Speaker 2: I'm saying it could be, or I could have put it there like that. [00:48:46] Speaker 1: All right. [00:48:46] Speaker 2: I don't remember. Did you generally just walk around with it in your pocket? [00:48:51] Speaker 1: Or would you only carry it when you wanted to use it for something? [00:48:55] Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't generally carry it around in my pocket just any time. [00:48:59] Speaker 1: Okay. All right. All right. So we got the badge that may be accidentally hanging out of your pocket. You won't concede that you did that purposefully. [00:49:09] Speaker 2: I mean, Mr. Waters, if you want me to say I did that on purpose, I don't have a problem with that. I'm saying I don't remember that. All right. So can I tell you that I did that on purpose? No, sir, I can't. Can I say that this happened by accident? No, sir, I can't. What I can say is I don't remember it, and that's not how I would normally, that's just not how I would normally, you know, that's just not, that's not something I did. That's not a normal thing. So I don't know. [00:49:42] Speaker ?: Okay. All right. [00:49:44] Speaker 1: That's fine. You won't concede to this jury that there was any intention or purpose to you doing that at the hospital on the night of the boat ride? [00:49:51] Speaker 2: I'm saying I don't remember using that badge. [00:49:54] Speaker 1: Fair enough. [00:49:54] Speaker 2: And I specifically remember, you know, I'm sorry, go ahead, and you can ask me that. [00:50:00] Speaker 1: You specifically remember what? [00:50:03] Speaker 2: When I went into the room with the kids, did I pull my badge out? And I know that I did not do that. [00:50:09] Speaker 1: No, because it was on your pocket like that, correct? [00:50:12] Speaker 2: It's on my pocket like that right then. [00:50:16] Speaker 1: Did you use that to get into areas that shouldn't be accessed by non-official personnel? [00:50:22] Speaker 2: Absolutely not. I mean, there was nowhere that I went that was not truly public domain. I mean, basically, the places that I went to were, when I got there, I went to Pawpaw. When I left Pawpaw, I went to Morgan Dowdy, who was like a daughter to Maggie and I. I had dated Paw for a long time, and I went to Morgan. Morgan had an injury to her hand that was bad. She was very upset about Mallory, and they were working on her, so I left her room. I went back to Pawpaw. At some point in time, I noted I went to Connor's room, and I believe those are the only rooms I went to. But again, I can't tell you that with certainty. [00:51:18] Speaker 1: While you were wearing that badge like that, did you tell any of the kids who were in the boat wreck not to cooperate with law enforcement? [00:51:24] Speaker 2: I never told anybody not to cooperate with law enforcement. Whether I had a badge hanging out my pants, didn't have a badge, or any point in time did I tell anybody, don't cooperate with law enforcement. [00:51:39] Speaker 1: Did you become aware in March or April or May of 2021, shortly before June, that an investigation into the investigation of that night had begun, as well as your conduct? [00:51:51] Speaker 2: Yes, I did learn of that. I don't know the status of that investigation, being that I've been charged with so many things and haven't been charged with that. I'm assuming that there may not be charges. [00:52:19] Speaker 1: Whether or not you were aware that that had begun in the spring of 2021? [00:52:24] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. I was aware. Well, at some point in time, I became aware of it. Was it February, March, April? I know it was after that night, and it was before June 7th. [00:52:50] Speaker 1: Before June 7th. [00:52:54] Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that I already knew that on June 7th. [00:53:03] Speaker 1: You mentioned Andy Strickland. Do you know what happened to him? [00:53:06] Speaker 2: Do I know what happened to him when? [00:53:08] Speaker 1: How he lost his job? As sheriff? [00:53:14] Speaker 2: I believe that when he was charged. I don't know if he resigned or he was suspended. [00:53:27] Speaker 1: Okay. Do you remember if that was a few months prior to you becoming aware of an investigation into the investigation of this boat case, including you? [00:53:38] Speaker 2: Do I know what now? [00:53:40] Speaker 1: Andy Strickland was charged and lost his job. Was that a few months prior to you becoming aware of the investigation into this incident that's on the screen? [00:53:52] Speaker 2: A few months prior? I don't really know this for a fact, but I believe, as I'm sitting here today, I believe that Andy was charged back in the fall. And like I said, we learned about when – I've testified about when I understood there was an investigation into whether or not I was acting in a public manner or whatever. Whatever it was y'all were investigating, public corruption or that. So if it was a couple of months, if it was a month or two when Andy Strickland got charged, then – I mean, if you showed me that, I'd be surprised because I think it was – I think he was charged before that. [00:54:53] Speaker 1: But you're – this was a friend of yours, correct? The guy who you asked if you could put lights in your car in a private vehicle, correct? [00:55:00] Speaker 2: Well, I mean, Andy – yeah, I considered Andy a friend. I considered T.C. a friend, and I considered Tom Carter a friend, all of whom I asked if I could put lights in the vehicle. [00:55:14] Speaker 1: All right. And – [00:55:15] Speaker 2: So, yes, sir, I mean, I considered Andy a friend. [00:55:18] Speaker 1: Would you at least agree with me that in at least the fall of 2020, your friend Andy Strickland was indicted and lost his job for a financial and corruption investigation? Objection, Your Honor. Rather, let's – [00:55:33] Speaker 4: Response. [00:55:39] Speaker 1: Your Honor, I think there's a link between his knowledge of that and what he's admitted that there was an investigation going on in the months prior to the murders. [00:55:52] Speaker 5: I mean, the question is, something about Andy Strickland being indicted? I just don't see the relevance, Your Honor. [00:56:04] Speaker 4: I sustain the objection. All right. [00:56:10] Speaker 1: We can at least agree that you were aware prior to the murders that there was this investigation, correct? The one on the screen, the one related to the investigation into the vote case. [00:56:24] Speaker 2: Was I aware that y'all had started an investigation into what I did in the hospital prior to June 7th? Yes. I believe that to be correct. All right. And if it wasn't before that, it was shortly after it. [00:56:47] Speaker 1: You, I, testified that you've had a pill addiction for approximately 20 years, correct? [00:56:54] Speaker 2: I think that's – I think that's about right. [00:56:59] Speaker 1: And so when did you start stealing money from clients? How long did it take before you started doing that? [00:57:11] Speaker 2: I'm not sure when the first time I did that is. You don't know? No, sir. [00:57:15] Speaker 1: You haven't gone back and thought about that? [00:57:16] Speaker 2: Well, sure I've thought about it, but to be able to sit here – I mean, you've got to understand, I've been in rehab and I've been in jail, and I don't have access – you know, all my telephone calls were put on the media, so I haven't had a lot of phone access – I haven't had a lot of access. So as we sit here today, I cannot tell you the exact time – I don't deny that I did it, but I can't tell you the exact time that I first did it. [00:57:45] Speaker 1: And you told this jury that's the cause of your financial problems? [00:57:50] Speaker 2: Did I say that the – [00:57:53] Speaker 1: The opiate addiction was the cause of your financial problems? [00:57:56] Speaker 2: It was certainly a cause, yes, sir. [00:57:57] Speaker 1: A cause. Not the only cause, though, correct? [00:57:59] Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't think it was the only cause, but, yeah, it was certainly a cause. [00:58:04] Speaker 1: You recall testimony in this courtroom about how you had some land deals go bad around the time of the recession in 2008, 2009? Sure. And you recall testimony from your law partners in this courtroom that you had some big cases that they thought cured those issues, correct? [00:58:25] Speaker 2: I heard them say that, yes, sir. [00:58:26] Speaker 1: Do you disagree with that? [00:58:28] Speaker 2: Do I disagree with what they thought? No, I mean, I don't have any reason. [00:58:32] Speaker 1: Do you disagree if that was true? [00:58:34] Speaker 2: They thought – my partners thought that I got past my financial difficulties? I have no reason to dispute that, Mr. Waters. I'm not trying to frustrate you. Was that true? [00:58:45] Speaker 1: What is what they thought true? [00:58:47] Speaker 2: That I was past my financial difficulties? Is that the question? Yes, that's the question. Was it true that I was past my financial difficulties? I mean, they were certainly better after that, but, I mean, no, I don't – no, I don't think I was past them. No, sir. [00:59:08] Speaker 1: All right. What was the first big case after the recession that you had? [00:59:13] Speaker 2: Mr. Waters, I can't tell you what the first big case was. Remember the – What date? [00:59:21] Speaker 1: All right. Well, let's go with the Pinckney case. Do you remember when that was? [00:59:28] Speaker 2: I remember, generally speaking, when it was, yes, sir. [00:59:31] Speaker 1: What year was that? 2011? Would you dispute that? [00:59:35] Speaker 2: 2011, what, when it ended? [00:59:37] Speaker 1: When you got recoveries in that case. [00:59:41] Speaker 2: I mean, if you're looking at something that tells me that, I have no reason to dispute that. But I can't remember off the top of my head, but that's certainly in the time frame. [00:59:51] Speaker 1: It's fine, Mr. Martin. We'll go through it. Let's do it. [00:59:54] Speaker 2: Mr. Waters, like I said, I take you at that. I just don't know off the top of my head. All right. I don't have a reason to dispute that. All right. [01:00:26] Speaker 1: I'm going to show you what's been admitted into evidence in the States 331. Let's go with, actually, 332, 333, and 334. Do you recognize those documents? Just generally, do you recognize them? I do. All right. And just generally, what are those? Those are disbursement sheets. Can I have them back, please? [01:00:56] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. Just give me one sec. [01:00:58] Speaker 1: Yeah. Take your time. [01:00:59] Speaker 2: I'm just trying to see which ones. All right. I mean, there's some things about it that I'm curious about, but can you ask the questions? [01:01:18] Speaker 1: We'll talk about that. [01:01:20] Speaker 2: All right. [01:01:20] Speaker ?: All right. [01:01:25] Speaker 1: Let's talk about, let's start with Natasha Thomas. Do you remember her? [01:01:30] Speaker 2: I do. [01:01:31] Speaker 1: How old was she when she became your client? [01:01:34] Speaker 2: I'm not sure. She was young. [01:01:36] Speaker 1: She was a teenager? [01:01:37] Speaker 2: I'm not sure, but I know she was young. [01:01:39] Speaker 1: She was underage, correct? [01:01:41] Speaker 2: Yes. She was underage. I do believe that. [01:01:44] Speaker 1: All right. [01:01:45] Speaker 2: In fact, I know that. [01:01:46] Speaker 1: And can you tell me what the, she was injured in this wreck, in an automobile wreck, correct? Yes. And the company Michelin, that was one of the defendants for an alleged tire issue, is that correct? [01:02:01] Speaker 2: That is correct. [01:02:02] Speaker 1: All right. And do you remember how much Natasha Thomas got in that particular case? And I can show it to you on 334. Do you remember how much she got? As a gross settlement, I believe it shows $2 million. $2 million. All right. And how much were your, or PMPED's fees that would be attributed to you in that, out of that $2 million? [01:02:27] Speaker 2: $800,000. [01:02:30] Speaker 1: $800,000. [01:02:31] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [01:02:32] Speaker 1: All right. Excuse me. Yes, sir. All right. And so that would be $800,000 in fees that would get attributed to you. That has nothing to do with the money that you subsequently stole from that teenager. [01:02:45] Speaker 2: Correct? The $800,000 is different from money that I stole? [01:02:51] Speaker 1: Yes. [01:02:52] Speaker 2: That's correct. [01:02:53] Speaker 1: All right. So you got $800,000 attributed to you with the firm, but that was not enough. You also stole money from that teenager. Is that correct? That is correct. All right. When you did that, did you sit down with her, much as you sat down with this jury, and explain to her what was going on while you were stealing her money? [01:03:13] Speaker 2: That would be the normal process, but I certainly don't remember specifically doing it. That would be the normal process, correct? That would be. It may be a little different with a teenager, but certainly, I mean. [01:03:25] Speaker 1: You would sit down with them across the table and go through these documents, correct? [01:03:31] Speaker 2: That would not be abnormal, yes, sir. [01:03:34] Speaker 1: All right. And then you would explain to them what was going on and how they were getting everything they were entitled to, correct? [01:03:41] Speaker 2: If I was the one doing it, yes, sir. [01:03:43] Speaker 1: And you would look them in the eye while you did that, correct? [01:03:46] Speaker 2: It wouldn't be unusual for me to look them in the eye. [01:03:49] Speaker 1: While you were doing some fast talking to a teenager, correct? [01:03:54] Speaker 2: I certainly was not telling her the truth. I don't know if I was talking fast or slow, but I wasn't telling the truth. [01:04:01] Speaker 1: All right. Well, you ultimately convinced her that there was nothing amiss here, right, while you were stealing her money, correct? [01:04:07] Speaker 2: I don't know if I convinced her that nothing was amiss or I misled her, but I admit candidly in all of these cases, Mr. Waters, that I took money that was not mine and I shouldn't have done it. I hate the fact that I did it. I'm embarrassed by it. I'm embarrassed for my son. I'm embarrassed for my family. And I don't dispute that I did it. I understand that. [01:04:36] Speaker 1: You understand that we have to ask about these things because we've heard about it in a very academic paperwork manner, but every single one of these, you had to sit down and look somebody in the eye and convince them that you were on their side when you were not, correct? That's what you did in every single one of these. I mean, every time. Answer my question, yes or no, and then you can explain. I'll let you explain all day long. [01:05:01] Speaker 2: Well, I mean, no, sir, that may or may not be true. And Mr. Waters, just to try to get through this quicker. I admit. I know you want to get through it quicker, but we're not. So answer the question, please. What I admit is that I misled them. I did wrong and that I stole their money. Now, this is something. What's the date on that one? [01:05:22] Speaker 1: I'll bring it back to you. [01:05:24] Speaker 2: Well, you can tell me. I trust you to tell me accurately. [01:05:27] Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's kind of funny. It doesn't have the date on it, but I'll let you take a look at it. [01:05:36] Speaker 2: All right, I'm just looking at the date of a check. So that's December 20th. So that goes to 2011. So that gives us a ballpark. So that's 12 years ago. For me to sit here and tell you specifically that I remember sitting down and talking with Natasha Thomas, I can't tell you that. But what I can tell you, and I can tell you that I didn't do right by Natasha Thomas. I took money from Natasha Thomas that didn't belong to me, and I was wrong for doing that. [01:06:04] Speaker 1: Okay. [01:06:05] Speaker 2: And I admit that. [01:06:07] Speaker ?: All right. [01:06:08] Speaker 1: And I know, Mr. Murdoch, that you would like for it just to be as simple as that, just to say, yes, ladies and gentlemen, I stole money, and have that be the end of it. But in every single one of these cases, I object to the comment, Your Honor. You just justify that you would like to just admit that and make this quick, correct? Isn't that what you said? Isn't that what you implied? [01:06:30] Speaker 2: No, sir. Mr. Waters, you have charged me with murdering my wife and my son, and I have sat here for all these weeks listening to all this financial stuff that I did wrong, that I'm embarrassed by. I'm happy to talk to you about as much of that as you want to talk about. I'm required to talk about it as much as you want to talk about it. But the fact is, is I cannot specifically remember sitting down. The details that you're asking me for, I can't tell you. But what I can tell you is that in all these financial situations, I stole money that was not my money. I misled people that I shouldn't have misled, and I did wrong. I can tell you that. And I may be able to tell you specifically, in some instances, what I did or didn't do. [01:07:22] Speaker 1: All right. Well, good. Well, we'll do that. But the point that I'm asking you is, it's not just as simple as some paperwork. You had to sit down and deal with these people and convince them that you were telling them the truth in order to steal this money. Correct? [01:07:38] Speaker 2: That may not be true, because in some situations, I may not have had to do that. They may have just trusted me to do it. Okay. So that's my point is, I misled them. There's no question about that. But did I sit down in each particular instance, and like you're breaking it down step by step? I can't say that. [01:07:58] Speaker ?: All right. [01:07:58] Speaker 2: I can say I did wrong, I stole money that wasn't mine, and I shouldn't have done it. [01:08:05] Speaker 1: All right. [01:08:06] Speaker 2: And it was terrible, what I did. [01:08:08] Speaker 1: All right. Well, let's look at states 330. This is Arthur Badger in the EPS case, correct? That's correct. All right. Do you remember what the total recovery was in that particular case? There were multiple plaintiffs. Let me ask you that first. There were multiple plaintiffs in that case, correct? [01:08:24] Speaker 2: That's correct. [01:08:25] Speaker 1: And do you remember what the total recovery was in that case? [01:08:28] Speaker 2: Not exactly, but I mean, I know generally. All right. Was it $12 million? Would you disagree with that? Was it $12 million? I mean, if you tell me it was $12 million, then I believe you, but I thought it was a little bit more than that. [01:08:41] Speaker 1: All right. [01:08:42] Speaker 2: And ultimately, if you have multiple plaintiffs, how do you decide as the plaintiff's lawyer, [01:08:48] Speaker 1: how does it work out that amounts of that total recovery get allocated to individual plaintiffs? [01:08:54] Speaker 2: I mean, different cases are different ways. [01:08:58] Speaker 1: Is it true that often the defense attorneys, the civil defense attorneys, will ask the plaintiff's attorneys how you want that allocated? [01:09:11] Speaker 2: Sometimes, yeah. [01:09:13] Speaker 1: Sometimes? Is that what happened in this case? In the Badger case? [01:09:17] Speaker 2: I can't remember exactly how we came to that. [01:09:21] Speaker 1: Who was the deep pocket in the Badger case? Do you remember? The defendant that had the money that you ultimately recovered from, the vast majority. Do you remember? [01:09:31] Speaker 2: Well, it was UPS. I can't remember if it was corporate or if there was insurance, but it was certainly UPS was the major defendant. But I believe Arthur Badger was a defendant. I can't remember. I know UPS was. [01:09:50] Speaker 1: Did you sit down with him and explain this paperwork that you were using to steal his money? [01:09:56] Speaker 2: I believe I did sit down with Arthur Badger. [01:09:59] Speaker 1: And managed to convince him that nothing was amiss while at the same time stealing money? [01:10:04] Speaker 2: I believe I did. [01:10:05] Speaker 1: And did you allocate millions of dollars to Arthur Badger personally while only telling him that his recovery was going to be around $300,000? [01:10:17] Speaker 2: I believe that I did. Yes, sir. [01:10:19] Speaker 1: And on this exhibit, 330 sat down and looked him in the eye with all this stuff on here and fast talked him past these figures that he believed you and left thinking that you had done him right. [01:10:31] Speaker 2: I believe that I sat down with Arthur Badger, and I know that I misled Arthur Badger, and I'm sure at some point during that conversation that I looked him in the eye. [01:10:48] Speaker 1: Going back to States 333, do you remember Hakeem Pinckney? Do you remember him? I do. What happened to him? [01:11:01] Speaker 2: He was injured in the same wreck that Natasha Thomas was injured in. [01:11:07] Speaker 1: Was he badly injured? [01:11:09] Speaker 2: He was. [01:11:13] Speaker 1: How badly injured was him? [01:11:16] Speaker 2: Yes, he was terribly injured. He became a... I can't remember what level, but he was a quadriplegic. [01:11:28] Speaker 1: Do you remember what the total recovery amount was for him? [01:11:34] Speaker 2: Not off the top of my head, no, sir. [01:11:36] Speaker 1: All right. Well, let me show you States 333. And see what the total, if you recall, what the total recovery was in that case. [01:11:46] Speaker 2: It looks like it was $10,245,000. [01:11:52] Speaker 1: And that was for Hakeem, correct? [01:11:55] Speaker 2: That's correct. [01:11:57] Speaker 1: And how much of that was the attorney's fees that would have gone to PMPED that would have been attributable to you? [01:12:08] Speaker 2: $4,098,000. [01:12:12] Speaker 1: $4,098,000 in legal fees that you would have gotten from this settlement. Is that correct? [01:12:17] Speaker 2: $4,098,000. Yes, sir. [01:12:24] Speaker 1: And in the end, that wasn't enough for you, correct? [01:12:31] Speaker 2: Was that enough for you? Was that enough for me in that case? Yeah. [01:12:37] Speaker 1: I mean, it was $4,098,000, over $4,098,000 in legal fees that you received that would have been attributable to you through the law firm at the end of the year, whatever it worked out to be. But you would have been credited with over $4,098,000 in fees for that. Is that correct? [01:12:50] Speaker 2: That's correct. [01:12:51] Speaker 1: And was that enough for you? [01:12:54] Speaker 2: Was that enough for me? [01:12:55] Speaker 1: Or did you take more? [01:12:56] Speaker 2: I took monies from Hakeem Pinckney that did not belong to me, that I should not have taken. [01:13:04] Speaker 1: Been rendered a paraplegic? [01:13:07] Speaker 2: No, sir. He was a quadriplegic, unfortunately. Quadriplegic. [01:13:09] Speaker 1: Thank you for correcting me. [01:13:10] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [01:13:16] Speaker 1: Did you ultimately take money from his mother, Pamela, as well? [01:13:26] Speaker 2: I believe that I did. [01:13:32] Speaker 1: Do you remember how much money you took from a king? [01:13:35] Speaker 2: No, sir. Not off the top of my head. I do not. [01:13:40] Speaker 1: If I told you it was over $370,000, would you agree with that? [01:13:46] Speaker 2: If that's what the records show, I don't dispute that. [01:13:49] Speaker 1: Do you remember how much you took from the teenager, Natasha Thomas, in addition to your legal fees? [01:13:55] Speaker 2: Not off the top of my head, no, sir. [01:13:57] Speaker 1: If I told you it was over $350,000, would you agree with that? I don't dispute it. Do you remember how much you took from Arthur Badger? [01:14:05] Speaker 2: Not off the top of my head, no, sir. [01:14:07] Speaker 1: If it was over $1.3 million, would you agree with that? [01:14:10] Speaker 2: I don't dispute it. [01:14:11] Speaker 1: Around the time that this was going on, did you have some land deals that were going bad, that had gone bad? 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011? [01:14:47] Speaker 2: I think those had happened a little bit before that, but I had some land deals that certainly had problems. [01:15:07] Speaker 1: That had something to do with the money you were taking as well, did it not? [01:15:12] Speaker 2: I think the whole picture had things to do with me doing stuff I shouldn't have done. I mean, I would agree that that certainly would have played some role in it. [01:15:27] Speaker 1: Were you living a wealthy lifestyle? [01:15:31] Speaker 2: A wealthy lifestyle? A wealthy lifestyle? A wealthy lifestyle? A wealthy lifestyle? A wealthy lifestyle? Probably. I mean, we were living whatever lifestyle, probably. [01:15:44] Speaker 1: Would you characterize your lifestyle as wealthy? [01:15:46] Speaker 2: You know, that's not how I would characterize it. You wouldn't characterize it as wealthy? I'm not going to take issue with it. [01:15:52] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:15:59] Speaker 1: Around this time, were you making more than a million dollars a year? [01:16:03] Speaker 2: Around what time? [01:16:05] Speaker 1: 2011. [01:16:08] Speaker 2: Yes. [01:16:10] Speaker 1: 2012? [01:16:12] Speaker 2: Yes. [01:16:14] Speaker 1: And you were still stealing money as well, correct? [01:16:16] Speaker 2: Yes. [01:16:18] Speaker 1: Can we at least agree that that's a lot of money? [01:16:25] Speaker 2: Over a million dollars? Never mind, it's fine. Okay. I think there's no question that's a lot of money. [01:16:29] Speaker 1: Okay, good. We can agree on that. That's a lot of money, correct? I feel like we're struggling here. Were you living a wealthy lifestyle? Jackson, the statement here. Were you living a wealthy lifestyle? [01:16:42] Speaker 2: I just don't know what you mean by wealthy. [01:16:44] Speaker 1: Is this a hard question, Mr. Murdoch? [01:16:45] Speaker 2: Well, it's hard for me to know exactly what you want, you know, and it depends. I was spending money that wasn't mine, that I shouldn't have. I think that, you know, we lived a lifestyle. I don't have an issue, if you want to call it wealthy. [01:17:07] Speaker 1: All right. Would you concede with me that not all of this money was going to pills at this point in time? [01:17:14] Speaker 2: No. [01:17:14] Speaker 1: All this stolen money? [01:17:17] Speaker 2: No, I doubt that it was. [01:17:20] Speaker 1: Okay. And it was being used to support your wealthy lifestyle? [01:17:26] Speaker 2: Well, I haven't looked at all these documents to know exactly what was being spent where, but here's what I do know. I know that I was making a bunch of money, and I should have had more money than I did. And I know that I was spending a bunch of money on pills. And I know that, you know, I just, I don't remember in 2011 if those land, I just can't remember those land deals. But, you know, if I spent money on other things, I don't dispute that either. I just haven't looked at the records. [01:18:03] Speaker 1: But you would at least concede that the money you were stealing was going to support your ever-expanding wealthy lifestyle. Would you concede that? [01:18:17] Speaker 2: Did all of the money I stole? Any of it, Mr. Murdon? Any of it, yeah, I would certainly agree that there was money that didn't go to buy just pills. [01:18:27] Speaker 1: All right. And you would concede that even though you were generating millions of dollars in fees, that was not enough for you. Would you concede that? [01:18:40] Speaker 2: If by concede that, you mean was I also stealing money that I shouldn't have? Yes, sir. I agree with that. I've said that repeatedly. [01:18:54] Speaker 1: Who were the plylers? [01:18:56] Speaker 2: They were two young girls from Columbia. [01:19:01] Speaker 1: They were underage when they became your clients? [01:19:04] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [01:19:06] Speaker 1: Did they suffer a loss in their family as a result of an accident? [01:19:10] Speaker 2: They did. [01:19:10] Speaker 1: What loss did they suffer? Who died? [01:19:13] Speaker 2: Their mother. Their mother did. [01:19:15] Speaker 1: And did you get a sizable recovery in the case, in that particular case, related to that? Yes, sir. Do you remember how much that recovery was? [01:19:24] Speaker 2: I don't. [01:19:25] Speaker 3: Got any idea? [01:19:30] Speaker 2: I know it was a significant settlement. I know it was a very good settlement, but... [01:19:35] Speaker 1: Millions of dollars? [01:19:36] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. It was millions of dollars. But whether it was, you know, two million, I know it was significant. I don't know if it was eight figures, but I know it was a significant settlement. [01:19:51] Speaker 1: And was there a conservatorship for them because they were underage? [01:19:57] Speaker 2: There was a conservatorship for them, but I don't think the fact that they were underage is why there was a conservatorship. [01:20:07] Speaker 1: You don't think it was because, at least in part, they were underage when the settlement was received? [01:20:14] Speaker 2: No, that's not what I remember. But for purposes of your thing, Mr. Waters, I agree there was a conservator appointed. [01:20:24] Speaker 1: Well, what is your memory of why the conservator was appointed? [01:20:26] Speaker 2: My memory is that the father, in this case, who was the beneficiary or a big beneficiary in this and who was the PR of the mother's case, was an undesirable witness. And there was testimony that he had hit his wife. And it was clear we felt like we didn't want him to be the face of the lawsuit. So we appointed a conservator. Who was that? For that purpose is why I believe we appointed a conservator. [01:21:10] Speaker 1: Okay. And who was that? That was Russell Lafitte. At Palomata State Bank? [01:21:15] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [01:21:16] Speaker 1: And after that, did you get Russell Lafitte to start loaning you money from the Plowler Girls account that he was conservator for? [01:21:29] Speaker 2: He loaned me money from the Plowler account. I don't know if I got him to do that. [01:21:34] Speaker 1: Oh, you didn't talk to him about it? Y'all didn't talk about that at all? [01:21:37] Speaker 2: No, we did talk about it. [01:21:39] Speaker 1: I mean, there's e-mails to that effect. Are you disputing that to this jury? [01:21:43] Speaker 2: Mr. Waters, I'm not disputing. I'm just telling you that Russell Lafitte gave me a loan from the Plowlers. Your question was, did I get him to do that? And I don't necessarily believe that to be accurate. [01:21:58] Speaker 1: Well, who came up with the idea? [01:21:59] Speaker 2: I don't know that it was, I think Russell felt like that it was a sound investment for those girls to charge me a higher interest rate when they weren't getting but so much interest somewhere else. [01:22:18] Speaker 1: What was that interest rate that y'all thought was such a good idea for these girls? Do you recall what it was? [01:22:24] Speaker 2: I can't remember. [01:22:25] Speaker 1: The reality is that you needed the money, and this was a convenient source to keep your massive cash flow going as early as 2011, 2012. Isn't that correct? [01:22:36] Speaker 2: Well, this was a loan, yes, sir. But exactly why it came from them versus the bank, I can't tell you the details without looking at all that. I can't tell you that off the top of my head. [01:22:51] Speaker 1: And despite all you were earning, you would even send Russell emails saying, hey, transfer over $75,000 from the Plowler account into my account, correct? Do you remember emails to that effect that you would have to him? [01:23:03] Speaker 2: Do I remember an email to that effect? No, I don't remember that. [01:23:07] Speaker 1: Would you dispute that there were emails to that effect? [01:23:08] Speaker 2: Not if you say there were, Mr. Waters. I don't dispute that. I don't dispute any of this, that I took money that didn't belong to me, that I misled people. [01:23:18] Speaker 1: I know that you want the answer to be that simple. That's not what I'm asking. We agree on that. We've agreed on that. [01:23:23] Speaker 2: No, sir. I don't necessarily want the answer to be simple. I just want everybody to understand I do not dispute that I stole money that was not my money, that I misled people to do that, that I misled people that trusted me to do that, and that what I did was terrible. I don't dispute that. It's just the way you're asking these questions, and, you know, I mean, there's some things in there that I do take issue with. [01:23:56] Speaker 1: Okay. Which part of what I just asked you about the pliers do you take issue with? You take issue that y'all didn't conspire to do that, you and Russell? Yes. You take issue with that? You take issue with that? Okay. [01:24:07] Speaker 2: I can tell you that Russell Lafitte never conspired with me to do anything. Whatever was done was done by me. [01:24:16] Speaker 1: Okay. So you told the pliler girls that you were borrowing money from their account? Yeah. [01:24:22] Speaker 2: No, I don't know. I don't know that I told them that. [01:24:26] Speaker 1: Did you tell Russell to tell them? [01:24:30] Speaker 2: I don't recall. I don't believe so, but I can't sit here and tell you what I told him however many years ago. [01:24:40] Speaker 1: Did you tell Russell he could borrow money from that account too? [01:24:45] Speaker 2: I don't remember having any discussion with him about him borrowing money. [01:24:51] Speaker 1: Was the supposed interest rate you were paying far lower than anything you could have gotten anywhere else? [01:24:58] Speaker 2: I don't even know what interest rate I was paying. [01:25:00] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:25:01] Speaker 1: One thing's clear, you never told this to the pliler girls, did you? [01:25:04] Speaker 2: I would have thought the interest rate that I was paying was a little bit more than what a bank loan would have been, but I don't know that to be – I don't know what the interest rate was, so I don't know that for sure. [01:25:18] Speaker 1: When you stole the Badger money, how much did you steal from Arthur Badger that we talked about before in the UPS case? [01:25:24] Speaker 2: I don't remember the exact amount. Over $1.3 million, would you dispute that? I don't dispute – I don't dispute that. [01:25:38] Speaker 1: And that was in addition to the $1.2 million in attorney's fees for his case alone that would have been attributed to you through the firm? [01:25:46] Speaker 2: What I stole from Arthur Badger – [01:25:48] Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. [01:25:50] Speaker 2: Inappropriately was in addition to any fees that I legitimately earned. I shouldn't have stole the money from Arthur Badger. I misled him, and I was wrong. [01:26:01] Speaker 1: Did you speak with Russell Lafitte once you stole this money from Arthur Badger about structuring that $1.3 million that you stole in a manner so it appeared to be payments to the Plyler account? Do you understand the question? [01:26:21] Speaker 2: No, sir. Say that again. [01:26:22] Speaker 1: Did you have any conversations with Russell Lafitte about structuring this $1.3 million into multiple payments and then applying it to the Plyler account? [01:26:33] Speaker 2: I've heard the testimony, and I've seen some of those records. [01:26:36] Speaker 1: If you did, did you have any conversations with Russell about that? [01:26:42] Speaker 2: I had to. [01:26:43] Speaker 1: Okay. [01:26:43] Speaker 2: I had to have. [01:26:44] Speaker 1: All right. You even asked him to recut the check, correct? To have Jeannie recut the check. [01:26:51] Speaker 2: I've seen, I believe, an email or a text to that effect. [01:26:56] Speaker 1: So you don't dispute that? [01:26:58] Speaker 2: No, I don't dispute that. What I dispute is if you're insinuating in any way, this was stuff that I did. I mean, this stuff, I did these things wrong. Russell Lafitte didn't do anything. I'm not here to talk about that. [01:27:15] Speaker 1: I'm just talking about what went on. [01:27:17] Speaker 2: And I know, but you keep talking about what I did with Russell Lafitte, and what I want to let you know is that I did this. I know. And I'm the one that took people's money that I shouldn't have taken and that Russell Lafitte was not involved in helping me do that. I'm just asking you a second question. Knowingly. If he did it, he did it without knowing it. [01:27:36] Speaker 1: All right. So you sent him an email and then asked him to recut the check and have the check made out to various amounts short of that and then applied those over time to give the illusion of payments to the plowler account. Is that correct? [01:27:49] Speaker 2: Mr. Waters. Is that correct? I don't know, but I'll tell you this. I don't dispute. I don't dispute what's in those emails as far as or texts as far as what I told Russell and as far as what I did to, again, take money that didn't belong to me, take money that didn't belong to me, that wasn't mine, and that I was wrong for taking. It's just the specifics of that you want me to give you details on, and I can't do that. And did you steal that badger money because you had to pay back the plowler girls' money before they turned 18 and reached the age of majority, [01:28:37] Speaker 1: and Russell would then have to be held to account for that money that he had loaned to himself and to you? [01:28:44] Speaker 2: First off, I don't know anything about any money that Russell loaned to himself. I only know about what he loaned to me. And I don't specifically, I don't believe that me stealing Arthur Badger's money and taking that money that did not belong to me, that I wrongly took, had anything to do. I don't remember it having a relationship with having to pay back a loan or being some time pressure to pay back a loan that he gave me on the plowler conservatorship. They don't remember that. No, and I'm not saying that that didn't happen. I'm saying that I don't remember. That's not the way I remember it, and I don't remember it. [01:29:33] Speaker 1: Did you ultimately borrow a million dollars roughly from the plowler girls without their knowledge? Does that sound right? About a million dollars in total? [01:29:44] Speaker 2: If you tell me that's the number, I mean, that surprises me, but I don't dispute what's in the records. But I didn't believe I had a loan for, are you saying a million dollars? I didn't believe that I had a loan. Mr. Waters, if that's what the records say, I don't dispute it. That's not what I thought. I didn't think I had a million-dollar loan from them. But if that's what the records say, I don't dispute that. But I can tell you this. If I had a million-dollar loan from them, I don't remember that. And I may be confusing it with a loan from the bank. But again, if that's what's in the records, I don't dispute it. [01:30:39] Speaker 1: So you have no memory whatsoever. And so for all you know, it's just a coincidence that the plowlers were about to turn 18 when you stole this Badger money and you applied a significant amount of it to pay that off before they turned 18. You don't have any memory of that. [01:30:54] Speaker 2: No, I can tell you that that was never an issue or motivation for me, again, taking Arthur Badger's money that I shouldn't have taken, that didn't belong to me, and that I was wrong for. I don't remember a loan from the plowler conservatorship as being motivation for that. [01:31:26] Speaker 1: So for all you can remember, it's just a coincidence. [01:31:30] Speaker 2: Why I stole Arthur Badger's money, just being a coincidence? [01:31:33] Speaker 1: No, why you applied it to the plowler loans right before they turned 18. [01:31:40] Speaker 2: No, I'm not saying it's a coincidence or not a coincidence. What I'm saying is I don't remember that. Okay. And so I don't remember that being the motivation. If it was, I just – I didn't know I had a million-dollar loan from the plowler conservatorship, at least as I sit here today. But, you know, I would have known I had a loan from somewhere. And if I took Arthur Badger's money and applied it to that, I mean, again, I stole money that didn't belong to me. I misled Arthur Badger to take that money, and I was wrong. [01:32:23] Speaker 1: How many times have you practiced that answer before your testimony today? Because you keep doing the same one over and over again. [01:32:28] Speaker 2: I've never practiced that answer, but you keep asking me these questions, and I keep using that answer. [01:32:36] Speaker 1: Let me show you what's been entered into evidence as states 321. Do you recognize generally that document? [01:32:45] Speaker 2: I do. [01:32:50] Speaker 3: And what is that? [01:32:53] Speaker 2: This is the disbursement sheet on the Deion Martin case. What happened to Deion Martin? [01:33:00] Speaker 1: He got in a wreck. Did you know his family? [01:33:05] Speaker 2: When he got in the wreck? [01:33:06] Speaker 1: Prior to him getting in the wreck. [01:33:09] Speaker 2: I knew who his family was prior to getting in the wreck. But after he got in this wreck, I became very close with his family. Became very close with his family. [01:33:18] Speaker 1: And Deion suffered some pretty severe injuries, correct? [01:33:23] Speaker 2: Deion was hurt bad. [01:33:25] Speaker 1: Including an injury to his head. [01:33:29] Speaker 2: You know, I heard you say that the other day. I don't specifically remember Deion having a head injury. I believe Deion had more orthopedic injuries, but he may have had some injury to his head. [01:33:43] Speaker 1: You met with him on a number of occasions? Yes, I met with him on a number of occasions. Met with his parents on a number of occasions? About Deion? About the case. While the case was going on. [01:33:56] Speaker 2: I don't know if I met with his parents about Deion's case. But I know I met with Deion. And I may have met with his parents if they say that. I mean, his dad is one of the most honorable fellows that I know. If he says I met with him, I certainly believe that. [01:34:12] Speaker 1: But you said you became close with them, correct? [01:34:15] Speaker 2: Close with the parents? I consider Deion's, yes, I consider, I think, the world of his dad and his mom and Deion. [01:34:32] Speaker 1: What was the recovery that was obtained in Deion's case? [01:34:37] Speaker 3: I'll show it to you. [01:34:39] Speaker 2: Let's see. It looks like recovery, $2 million. Actually, this is, let's see. I know it was $2 million, but I believe the recovery was less than $2 million. I believe that I said it was $2 million. I can't remember exactly what recovery is, but I know it was less than $2 million, and I know that I misstated it as $2 million. [01:35:24] Speaker 1: So you falsified the paperwork, right? [01:35:28] Speaker 2: It appears that I put inaccurate information on the paperwork, yes, sir. [01:35:34] Speaker 1: You put inaccurate information. You falsified it, right? [01:35:37] Speaker 2: If you like that word, yes, sir. [01:35:39] Speaker 1: All right, and that's that right there where you put that $500,000 on there, correct? Great. Oh, I'm sorry. Can I have the envelope, please? [01:35:52] Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Mr. Waters. What was the question? [01:35:55] Speaker 1: Let's get the envelope out, and then I'll show you. Right there, that's the $500,000 that you falsified this document with. Is that correct? Where it says structured annuity directly to Michael Gunn? [01:36:17] Speaker 2: That looks like one place that I – yes. Why did you do that? Why did I – [01:36:28] Speaker 1: Yeah, why did you put that $500,000? What was your purpose in doing that? [01:36:37] Speaker 2: It appears that I was stealing his money, $500,000. [01:36:44] Speaker 1: Were you not inflating your fees with that one? [01:36:47] Speaker 2: I mean – You don't remember? I know that I inflated the fees like I just talked about, but I believe what – go back to the top of that thing. I believe what I must have done with the structured annuity is I had that $500,000 check, and I must have had that made to forge, as you've heard, to steal that money from Deion Martin. [01:37:25] Speaker 1: All right. Down at the bottom. That I shouldn't have. [01:37:27] Speaker 2: Is that your signature down there? It is. [01:37:30] Speaker 1: Is that Deion Martin's signature on the other side? It – Do you dispute that? [01:37:35] Speaker 2: No, I don't dispute that. [01:37:40] Speaker 1: So you would have sat down with Deion Martin and gone over to this document with him and convinced him that there was nothing to miss here? [01:37:48] Speaker 2: You know, again, I don't know if I went over to document with him or not, but I certainly misled Deion Martin. I certainly lied to Deion Martin. I certainly took money from Deion Martin that did not belong to me, and I shouldn't have done it. [01:38:01] Speaker 1: You don't specifically remember talking to Deion? There was nothing in you that causes you to remember talking with Deion, sitting there with this document in front of him, and as you looked him in the eye, knowing that you were lying to him the whole time. You don't even remember that? [01:38:16] Speaker 2: Nothing in you that causes you to remember that? To specifically remember? I'm not sure that I did sit down with Deion Martin. But I certainly, Mr. Waters, I misled Deion Martin. I lied to Deion Martin. I took Deion Martin's money when I shouldn't have. [01:38:32] Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you this. Of all the people on here, all these exhibits, do you have any independent recollection of a time where you sat down and looked that person in the eye, and you were lying to them and convincing them that everything was okay while you stole their money? Do you remember even one of them? I'm sure I did. Okay, well, tell us about one. I mean, you have to show me. You have to give me. I'm asking you if you remember one time where you're sitting there in your heart, looking somebody in the eye, knowing you're stealing from them, and you remember it. [01:39:05] Speaker 2: I remember stealing from people. I remember lying to people. And I remember misleading people. For me to tell you that I sat down with each one of these people. [01:39:14] Speaker 1: I'm asking you to tell me about just one conversation, one time where you recall looking somebody in the eye and convincing them with your lies that nothing was amiss. One conversation. [01:39:26] Speaker 2: There were plenty of conversations where I looked people in the eye and I lied to them. There were plenty of times where I took money that I shouldn't have taken. There were plenty of times where I stole money for me to sit and tell you a specific time that I sat down with a specific document and what exactly was said. If you ask me questions, but I can't remember sitting down with Deion. They certainly remember it, don't they, Mr. Murdoch? I don't know if they do or not, but I would assume so. [01:40:00] Speaker 1: But you can't tell us one time where it just sticks out in your memory where you're like, I'm pulling a fast one right now. Oh, no. Or anything. Whatever reaction you had. Oh, no. You can't remember a single one? [01:40:10] Speaker 2: No, sir. That's not correct. I can remember a lot of times where I lied to my clients, I misled my clients, and I stole money from my clients in conversations. But for me to sit and tell you that I had a conversation about this particular document, I don't dispute it. [01:40:31] Speaker 1: I know you don't dispute it, Mr. Murdoch. You've said that a hundred times. Haven't you? But you can't recall for this jury one of these people looking them in the eye while you lied to them. You can't recall a single one. I've asked you this three times now. Oh, I promise you. [01:40:49] Speaker 5: Your Honor, I asked and answered three times. [01:40:52] Speaker 2: Here, here. Here you go, Mr. Waters. Your point's made, isn't it, Mr. Murdoch? I don't know if your point's made or not, You don't know that either, do you? Here's what I will say again. I remember lying to clients of mine. I did it on more than one occasion. I took their money when I shouldn't have taken it. I'm sure that I looked them in the eye. I'm sure that I misled them. But I can't tell you exactly when those occurred 12 years ago. It's the only point. I don't dispute that they occurred. I don't dispute that everything about what I did was wrong. But I can't sit and tell you the specific details that you're wanting me to give you. [01:41:50] Speaker 1: We could just write that answer down on a sheet of paper and you could hold it up each time you want to say that, couldn't we, Mr. Waters? [01:41:56] Speaker 2: If that's what you want to do, Mr. Waters. But I'm trying to answer your question. All right. [01:42:06] Speaker 1: These were real people you were dealing with, right? [01:42:08] Speaker 2: Absolutely. [01:42:09] Speaker 1: I know you want to give that answer, but these were real people, aren't they? [01:42:13] Speaker 2: No, they're very real people. And, you know, one of the saddest parts of this whole thing is, is, you know, they're people that I still care about. And I did them this way. You know, that's what I was meaning in that text. That you made an issue about to Annette Griswold. And it was a lot talking about my partners, but it was a lot talking about these people. I mean, I know the people that I did wrong and that I hurt and that I stole from. I mean, they're people that I think a lot of. And, hang on, hang on. I want to say one more thing. And there's no question that the actions that I did, the things that I did wrong, hurt a lot of the people that I care about the most. And I did a lot of damage. And I wreaked a lot of havoc. And I'm... [01:43:22] Speaker 1: You did a lot of damage and wreaked a lot of havoc. I hear you. There's no question about it. Yeah, I'll show you what's been marked as States 315. See if you recognize this. I do. [01:43:34] Speaker ?: I do. [01:43:35] Speaker 1: Which case is this? [01:43:39] Speaker 2: This is Elise Mallory. [01:43:43] Speaker 1: And what happened in this case? I stole her money. What happened, though, with the underlying case? Can you tell the jury that? Do you remember that? [01:43:55] Speaker 2: I believe it was Ms. Taylor, Ms. Mallory's... I believe it was her daughter. It might have been her granddaughter, but I believe it was her daughter, was in a wreck. [01:44:16] Speaker 1: Did she die? [01:44:17] Speaker 2: And she got killed. [01:44:19] Speaker 1: And Ms. Mallory came to you for help? She did. Do you remember that one at all? [01:44:23] Speaker 2: Okay, we remember one now. Oh, no, Mr. Waters, I remember all of these people. Okay. It's not that I don't remember them. You're just asking me details about conversations. Okay, great. I can promise you, I remember all of these people that I did wrong. [01:44:38] Speaker 1: Right, and you stole all of the money, didn't you? [01:44:41] Speaker 2: I stole all of the money. Most of the money that I've been accused of stealing, I stole. No, I mean, you stole every single dime of the recovery. [01:44:50] Speaker 1: She didn't get one dime, isn't that right? I have to look at the records, but if that's... You credited yourself with legal fees, and then you stole all the rest of the money, correct? [01:45:02] Speaker 2: I don't dispute that. All right. [01:45:04] Speaker 1: Tell me about... First of all, tell me about Ms. Mallory. So she lost her daughter, correct? Is that correct? [01:45:10] Speaker 2: That is correct. [01:45:11] Speaker 1: And she came to you for help, is that correct? [01:45:12] Speaker 2: Granddaughter, but... [01:45:13] Speaker 1: All right. [01:45:14] Speaker 2: One. [01:45:15] Speaker 1: All right. And she came to you for help, correct? Yes, sir. I agree with you on that. Very, very sweet lady, correct? Very sweet lady. All right. Tell me about your conversation when you looked her in the eye and lied to her while you were stealing every dime of the money. [01:45:31] Speaker 2: This is a perfect example, Mr. Waters. I stole her money. I did her wrong. But I don't even believe that Elise Mallory was there when I stole that money. I don't... If you look at that disbursement sheet, there's... I don't even believe I ever showed that to her. [01:45:48] Speaker 1: Okay. You don't remember having any conversations with her when you lied with her about this case while you were stealing all her money? [01:45:55] Speaker 2: I don't think I did in this case. I don't think I had any meetings with her. I think I stole her money and I don't believe that I had a meeting with her. [01:46:03] Speaker 1: See, again, you can't tell us one conversation you had with any of these people when you looked them in the eye and convinced them that you were doing them right, that you were telling the truth. [01:46:13] Speaker 2: That's not true, Mr. Waters. I remember a lot of those conversations. I remember a lot of them. [01:46:19] Speaker 1: Okay. All right. You just testified. You remember a lot of them. I've been asking you now for the past ten minutes to tell me about one of them where it's stuck in your heart. It's stuck in your brain. [01:46:30] Speaker 2: There are a lot of conversations I had where I misled my clients and I stole their money, where they trusted me, and I remember them. [01:46:43] Speaker 1: Okay. And, again, can you tell me one? Tell me how it went down, what you said, how you convinced them, how you looked them in the eye, how you made them believe, how you used your skills as a trial lawyer to convince them. Can you just tell me about one of those? What was going through your head when you did it? [01:47:00] Speaker 5: Your Honor, objection under Rule 403. We've been going over and over and over this. [01:47:05] Speaker 2: Objection was overruled. What's your question, Mr. Waters? [01:47:12] Speaker 1: Can you tell me about one of the conversations you had with all of these people? Just one. I can tell you. What was going through your head and how it went down when you sat there and looked them in the eye and convinced them that you were doing them right while you were lying to them and stealing their money? [01:47:31] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. I had a lot of conversations with a lot of my clients that I cared about. And so I will tell you that I had conversations with them where I misled them and I lied to them and I took their money. That was a number of times. Okay. But you're asking me. [01:47:57] Speaker 1: Just one specific one, Mr. Murdoch? [01:48:00] Speaker 2: Every single one of these clients I would have had conversations with at some point. It's fine. But this particular, like Mr. Waters, that disbursement sheet, I didn't have, there was never a sit down with Ms. Mallory about the dispersing the money. You don't recall talking to her about the status of her case and telling her lies and convincing her that you were on her side? [01:48:20] Speaker 1: You don't remember that? [01:48:21] Speaker 2: No, I definitely remember that. But that's not what you asked me. I had numerous conversations with Ms. Mallory, you know, about this case. But the fact is, is you were asking me about me sitting down with this disbursement sheet, looking her in the eye and convincing her. And I'm telling you that that didn't happen in this case. Now, I had a lot of conversations with her where I misled her, Mr. Waters, where I lied to her. Tell me about what? Tell me how it went down. [01:48:56] Speaker 4: We're going to recess for the day and resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning. Everyone remain seated while the jury leaves. We'll see you all at 9.30 tomorrow morning. [01:49:20] Speaker 1: - No more. [01:49:21] Speaker ?: - No more. [01:49:50] Speaker 4: - Thank you. - I'm adjourned for the day. - I'm sorry, Your Honor. [01:49:53] Speaker 6: - Yes, sir. Your Honor, we have two experts we brought in, basically one of them last night and another one came in today from out of state. They're not complicated ones. Pathologists' testimony perhaps take 30 to 45 minutes on direct, I don't believe there's going to be much cross. The other one is a crime scene analyst who's testified not about the whole crime scene, but specifically based on the pathologist testimony about what happened in the feed room. Total, they should not take more than two and a half hours. I wonder, since this apparently is going to go on for a while, if we might put them up tomorrow, either first thing in the morning or at the morning break. That's what Mr. Waters will do and get them out of here. Because I believe his cross is probably going to go into Monday anyway at the rate we're going. It's just an accommodation. They're not controversial. They're not going to opine on who killed who, when, and how. Just the mechanics of what happened. [01:50:55] Speaker 4: What says the state? [01:50:57] Speaker 1: Your Honor, and I think the defense would have to concede. I've been very accommodating as I can throughout this, but I do not want to interrupt my cross. They took a very long time today and the state is entitled to the same consideration without interruption. [01:51:18] Speaker 4: Can you project how many more hours do you have? [01:51:22] Speaker 1: Well, I actually didn't think it would take this long to get this far, but I think I've got some more financial to move through and then we'll get to the other evidence. [01:51:31] Speaker 4: Two hours, four hours, six hours. [01:51:33] Speaker 1: We're not so bad at that, Your Honor, three, four, something like that. And that's the outside. [01:51:41] Speaker 6: Perhaps tomorrow afternoon we could get to one or two. We could probably do this fairly quickly if, Your Honor, just leave that door open. I'm going to keep them here. But if I have to keep them here over the weekend, the financial impact of that is huge. [01:51:59] Speaker 4: I understand the dilemma, but I'm not going to require the state to break up the cross-examination of this witness. [01:52:08] Speaker 6: Well, again, you know, as I sit here and listen to this, I could have sworn this was a murder case. For two hours now we haven't heard the word "murder" once. And not criticizing the strategy, obviously denigrating his character is what this is about, but really not relevant to the issue of whether he killed or not. [01:52:29] Speaker 4: The credibility is an issue as it relates to all witnesses in every case. The world adjourned until 9:30 tomorrow morning.