About this transcript: This is a full AI-generated transcript of "Men Have Driven Climate Change" - Dia Mirza — Ecofeminism — Arati Kumar Rao @SohaAliKhanP from Soha Ali Khan, published June 8, 2026. The transcript contains 19,297 words with timestamps and was generated using Whisper AI.
"I saw men on some substance or the other. They were either addicted to good khaa or they were drinking alcohol. And the women were left behind to deal with the flooding. They were doing back-breaking work. They had no one and nothing. When I saw little girls struggling to just be allowed to go to..."
[00:00:00] Dia Mirza: I saw men on some substance or the other. They were either addicted to good khaa or they were drinking alcohol. And the women were left behind to deal with the flooding. They were doing back-breaking work. They had no one and nothing. When I saw little girls struggling to just be allowed to go to school, it's a lot to unpack.
[00:00:21] Aarti Kumar Rao: Before I forget, so I thank you for even choosing to speak about this. We call it Mother Earth, but a lot of these women have actually realised what that means and they have fought for it.
[00:00:30] Dia Mirza: Patriarchy is the cause for climate change. It's men who have driven climate change.
[00:00:34] Aarti Kumar Rao: What's happening right now in Himachal and Uttarakhand is so, so sad.
[00:00:39] Dia Mirza: I mean, you call her Ganga Ma, you're spitting, defiling her in every way. If we continue to produce and consume at the rate that we are, we will need seven Earths in the next 20 years. Women and children always bear harshest brunt.
[00:00:54] Aarti Kumar Rao: Patriarchy is not about men. Feminism is not about women.
[00:00:57] Dia Mirza: If you are standing up for ecological health, you are coming in the way of progress. It needs to be planet, people and then profit.
[00:01:06] Aarti Kumar Rao: You can't wake someone who only pretends to be asleep.
[00:01:09] Dia Mirza: 1% of the world's population controls 90% of the world's money.
[00:01:14] Aarti Kumar Rao: How do you talk to your child? How do you implement certain things? Just go for a safari in your house. You might see a spider catching a fly. And that's interesting too. Yes. So don't lose your sense of wonder. Don't grow up.
[00:01:26] Speaker 3: What is the danger of excluding women's voices? Catastrophe. You know, becoming a mother really changed the way that I saw the world, not just in an emotional or in a spiritual sense, but in a very practical sense. I suddenly became hyper aware of what I was consuming, what I was feeding my child, what I was throwing away, what kind of air my daughter was breathing and what kind of planet we're leaving behind for her. But it wasn't just motherhood. I remember growing up in a house where my mother, who has been a woman of incredible strength and grace, she would often remind us that nurturing doesn't make you weak. It makes you responsible. And that is something that I've seen in so many women. From the women who walk miles every day to fetch clean water, to young girls striking for climate justice across the world, there is a deep connection between women and the earth. And not just because we care more, it's because we are affected more and we have, in some ways, always carried that burden silently. And it leads me to think then that perhaps empowering women, could that actually help heal our planet? And that is why today's conversation is so important. We're exploring ecofeminism, not just as a theory, but as a lived reality. It's about understanding why women are at the heart of climate change, both as its victims and as its most powerful warriors. Hello and welcome to All About Her, a space where we have honest and meaningful conversations about women's health, wellness, happiness and self-care. And today we're talking about the environment in feminism and how they go hand in hand. We have two incredible guests with us today. My first guest is someone that I've long admired, not just for her work on screen, but for her deep commitment to the planet. She's an actor, a producer, UN environment goodwill ambassador, a passionate advocate for ecofeminism. Please welcome the incredible Dia Mirza. Thank you. Thank you for being here. I know you're not feeling your best, but still thank you for being here.
[00:03:36] Dia Mirza: I am feeling very good. Thank you very much because I'm on your podcast. Let's hope that continues. Yes. I just have to say that this was long overdue and I'm so excited for you.
[00:03:47] Speaker 3: Thank you for coming. Also, obviously I could not think of anybody else to be sitting in that chair. There were very few names. The first one that came to mind, so I'm very happy that you agreed. Thank you. Joining us is someone who has dedicated her life to telling the stories of our land and its people. An Indian author, acclaimed photographer, she spent years chronicling fragile ecosystems, vanishing rivers, and also the lives that are deeply entwined with them. Through her lens and through her beautiful words, she captures not just landscapes, but what you call a quiet, slow violence of ecological change. We're so happy to welcome Aarti Kumar Rao to this conversation. The very, very cool Aarti Kumar Rao. Very cool. I love what you're wearing. I love the way that you write. Thank you. And I want to get into that also, the beautiful storytelling. I'm very nervous.
[00:04:38] Aarti Kumar Rao: Why?
[00:04:39] Dia Mirza: I don't know. You shouldn't be. You're with two women who respect and admire you deeply. And I am so, so grateful to share this space with you.
[00:04:50] Aarti Kumar Rao: And likewise, this is the first time we're meeting. Really? Yup.
[00:04:54] Dia Mirza: Yeah. We've been on some lists together.
[00:04:56] Aarti Kumar Rao: Yes. You've been on some very powerful lists. Other than some hit lists. Some people were not happy with this.
[00:05:03] Dia Mirza: We will get into this list. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I have to tell you. Can we start this podcast with a story? Of intimidation and threat.
[00:05:12] Speaker 3: Okay, tell me about the list. First, the good list is the BBC 100 Most Influential Women. Yeah, 2023. 2023. You two were two of the three Indian women on that list. Yeah.
[00:05:26] Dia Mirza: That's a good list to be on. Yes, it was.
[00:05:28] Aarti Kumar Rao: Yeah, it was surprising. And I was…
[00:05:30] Dia Mirza: Yeah, it was surprising. Yeah. Where did they find us?
[00:05:33] Aarti Kumar Rao: I know. I asked them. I said, "Where did you find me?" And they said, "We do our research." Yeah. Somebody else also said quite recently to me. Yes. I like to do my research.
[00:05:42] Dia Mirza: What's the list you're talking about? The hit list? So, we were both… We were often invited to be on panels. And recently, we were offered to be on a panel on sustainability by a mainstream… media house. And a very, very prolific journalist who I've long admired was coordinating this piece with both of us. And four days before the event, we received the creatives, which was like the posters for the panel. And on the creative, we saw a sponsor name that terrified us. And so, we spoke with each other. We reached out to one another. And I said, "I'm extremely uncomfortable. I'm not okay with doing this anymore." And she said, "Ditto." Yeah. And I was like, "I'm pulling out." She said, "I'm doing exactly the same." And the journalist in question was not very happy with us. She was violently upset. She called me and she said, "Because of you. Deer's pulling out."
[00:06:46] Aarti Kumar Rao: No, but it wasn't because of you. We talked. So, it's not one… I mean, we both… It was unconscionable, let's just say. A person who's committing ecocide… I mean, it was just… You couldn't sit under… Yeah. A company that's committing ecocide was a sponsor for sustainability. And you're sitting underneath that banner and speaking. It would just be so wrong on so many levels. Yeah.
[00:07:00] Dia Mirza: I mean, the reason I wanted to have this conversation, we're having many of them under this umbrella
[00:07:20] Speaker 3: of All About Her. The environment I've always understood is important to us. I've understood that ever since, you know, we have been brought into existence, our footprint can be damaging in so many ways. Some of us try and minimize that footprint. Some of us don't. Some of us are not aware of the havoc that we create. But, apparently, there's something called ecofeminism. There's a deep link between the planet and between women. And, apparently, some of that violence that occurs to the world has a graver impact on women. And, perhaps, a more immediate or most urgently felt impact on women. And, that's something that I wanted to explore more of. So, I thought I would ask you first, Arthi, to explain to some of us, because I'm sure that if I don't know, a lot of other people also don't know, what is ecofeminism and when did this phrase come about?
[00:08:16] Aarti Kumar Rao: Ecofeminism is, I think, something that was born in the middle of the last century. And, I'm going to butcher this person's name. It's French. Francois Dubon, I think, is how you say it. She was the one who came up with this term and it was literally marrying feminism with political ecology. And, that basically means how various things in ecology disproportionately, maybe even, affect women. And, how women, because of their role in society, how they affect change in ecology. And, you know, the whole intermingling of it. But, beyond that, I think it is an ethos. And, the reason why I'm saying beyond that is because these labels, they become very heavy to carry. Ecofeminism, it will come with baggage. People will relate it immediately to feminism and then you're going to be labeled and, you know, packaged and thrown away. Right. But, it's really, it's an ethos. It's a way of thinking. And, what does it say, basically? It says everything is interconnected and that you have to nurture things in order for them to thrive. And, you break one thing and you're going to break something else somewhere else, right? It's this whole thing. And, so there were a lot of people who, in the 1960s, for example, there was Rachel Carson, who wrote this seminal book called Silent Spring, where she connected the use of DDT to the deaths of bald eagles, to the extinction, near extinction of bald eagles. And, that kind of set the ball rolling as well. But, I think, all along even India's history, we've had these amazing women who have realized what the earth is. We call it mother earth and all of that, but that's, again, tokenism. It's kind of just lip service. But, a lot of these women have actually realized what that means and they've fought for it. And, that, I think, is something that we have an amazing heritage of, an amazing tradition of doing that. And, among others, we are as well. Yeah. Now, with the new generation. But, it's something that's really important for us to reclaim. And, it's not as much about women as it is about thinking about an ethic. It's a land ethic. It could be men doing this, right? It could be anybody, right? It is trying to front and center the land so that we may survive. We may all survive.
[00:10:53] Dia Mirza: Right.
[00:10:54] Aarti Kumar Rao: It's not a commodity. Yeah.
[00:10:56] Dia Mirza: I think that the feminine that we are referring to, whether it's in parlance to eco-feminism or feminism, is the innate nature of the female form or the feminine form, whether it exists even in a man, to nurture. Right. It's really that. Right. And, you nurture with a sense of equality. Right. And, you believe that what you give will thrive. Right. Right? And, what you support and you love will thrive. So, I actually started understanding eco-feminism from Vandana Shiva. I think she's someone who has articulated eco-feminism so brilliantly and has done it over decades and has done it with such tangible and relatable and nuanced contextualization of what it means. And why it's so urgent and why it's so urgent. And for me, she is like the torchbearer of eco-feminism in not just in India but the world. Because I think what eco-feminism does is that it helps a mostly patriarchal male dominated world understand that it is this patriarchy that has been exploitative. And it is this exploitative nature over consumptive, destructive, exploitative, capitalist nature that has caused the ecological imbalance that we are all bearing the brunt of today, especially people in vulnerable sections of society. Yes. And as we know, whether it is war or it is a natural disaster, women and children always bear the deepest and the harshest brunt of those calamities and situations. We've grown up, Suha, seeing women walk miles to collect water. I've seen it in my own household. I remember my momima, she lived on the third floor. And when there was no water supply, she and her daughters would climb up and down stairs, filling buckets of water, taking them up to their home. I saw my house help waiting in line in the harsh summer heat for hours for one pot of potable water that they could then boil and consume. We continue to see this in what is perceivably or presumably a thriving urban setup. And we see the inequality around us so glaring every day in a city like Mumbai. I mean, there's no greater example of what this exploitative form of living is doing, right? I mean, you see these high rises and right outside you'll see a sprawling slum within access to basic hygiene, basic health, basic water. And that's what ecofeminism is, to bring that awareness and that understanding that we can no longer live controlling, manipulating, exploiting and harming the natural world.
[00:14:40] Aarti Kumar Rao: It hasn't worked. It's brought us to where we are today. This man over nature, man dominating nature.
[00:14:48] Dia Mirza: Yeah. I said, you know, when we did the BBC 100 list interviews, one of the things I said in my interview was that patriarchy is the cause for climate change. It is the men in this world. It's the men who have driven climate change and they are entirely and totally responsible for the chaos that has been unleashed on our world today and the misery that people are experiencing everywhere. I mean, not just the global south, but the global north as well now, right? And for some reason, it was, it was, it became very politically sensitive. Is it? Yeah, because I got really trolled for saying that. Really? Yeah. I think it's just for people. It's very interesting to observe. I was like, why are they trolling me for something that is so obvious? And then you realize that it is the obvious that has escaped most people.
[00:15:46] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it is. And I think, you know, for you to unpack that term and to talk about the nuanced definition of that, about the nurturing. Yeah. And we spoke about Mandana Shiva and, you know, Dr. Shiva also talks about just our human values being so intrinsically linked to a seed. Seeds. Yeah. And how seeds grow. And I think if people see it in that context, it's not about man versus woman. It's about like that capitalist structure about how the green revolution perhaps was not a good idea in our minds. You know, us, you know, we'll talk about it later because I want to give this conversation some kind of structure. So it's easier for people to follow. So we spoke about what ecofeminism is. And now I understand that better, but I want to understand how this theory becomes personal to people like you. And for you, Aati, I know that you were in, you grew up in a particular family, which was sensitive to the ecology that they believed in. They had a certain value system. Yeah. But then you did also tread a corporate trajectory for some time. Yes. And then you said you were very unwell. She was it. And you lay on that sofa and you thought about what am I doing. She was selling her soul. Totally. And then you pivoted. But so when did ecofeminism become something personal for you?
[00:16:59] Aarti Kumar Rao: I think it always was. You know, sometimes you take the least, the path of least resistance. Yeah.
[00:17:06] Speaker 3: Ah, yes.
[00:17:07] Aarti Kumar Rao: You're there. I just had a child. Imagine going out for months into the world to tell stories the way I tell them. It wasn't going to be possible. I didn't even think about it. But then a nine to five and a very accommodating. The company was great to me. They allowed me to do all of that. So when I was having a child, it was the correct thing. And it was a path of least resistance. So, yes, I did do that. But there has never been a moment in my life. There's never been a time that the environment and the state of the environment has not been discussed in the family as something that is a central value of the family. My mother's family, we have botanists and zoologists. And so, you know, everything is always nature, nature, nature, nature, nature. And Papa is like this environmentalist. And he was the one who was reeling against large dams and stuff like that, that I speak about in the book. So I grew up with him reading to me from absolutely wonderful poets, essays, people who talk about how to treat the land. So it's never been away from me, I think. And eventually when I decided enough was enough and I was going to tell stories again, it was like a no brainer what I was going to tell stories about. I was not going to go, you know, into any other kind of journalism. It would have to be talking about land and landscapes. So it's never been apart from me.
[00:18:39] Speaker 3: You know, what I loved about what you said in your book also was growing up as a young child, you would have various relatives visit also. Oh, yeah. And some of them worked at the World Bank. And that was very opposed to what was being taught and practiced at home. That was actually traumatic.
[00:18:53] Aarti Kumar Rao: Very traumatic.
[00:18:54] Speaker 3: And the debates that you, and what was interesting for me was that you understood that people can talk and talk and talk at each other and maybe not reach anywhere.
[00:19:02] Dia Mirza: And have very different viewpoints.
[00:19:04] Speaker 3: And have different viewpoints. And that's why perhaps your style of storytelling, you decided to speak your voice through words and through photographs and through travel, which might be another way of getting your point across. Yes.
[00:19:17] Aarti Kumar Rao: Yes. In fact, that's a very, I'm so happy you've both picked up on that. She's astute, I told you. Yes. Yes, absolutely. I agree now. Now? Well, I didn't know you before today. In all fairness, but I'm hugely thrilled because it's true, you know, I saw my dad. I also learned another thing, Soha. I saw my dad stand up against everyone else. There was not a single person who thought like him in the 80s. Yeah. And he would not let go, you know, because he believed in it.
[00:19:52] Dia Mirza: Sounds so much like my dad. Yeah.
[00:19:55] Aarti Kumar Rao: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you realize that if there is something, and especially if it is scientifically sound, or it's got backing of evidence, may not be proof, but at least evidence, you learn how to stand up for your convictions then, you know. And I saw that. You even have them. Yeah. This is family. You can't make enemies of them, right? Yeah. But still, Papa would hold steadfast because he believed what he was saying, right? And look at us now, 40, 50 years on. And it's like he said, you know, all of these things, what's happening right now in Himachal and Uttarakhand is so, so sad because people have been screaming about this, you know.
[00:20:43] Speaker 3: And it has happened in the past. Yeah, it's happened in the past. For 40 years. I want to stop you there because that's a whole part also that I want to discuss. But, and before I come to you there, because you said there's so many similarities between you and Aarti and one of them you said my father was also like that. I know a little bit having read the book, but for those who haven't, who must, tell us about that upbringing because it's not like you grew up in a forest. Yeah. You know, you grew up in Mumbai. Yeah. And in Mumbai, you managed to lead a sustainable life. And that was helmed by your father. Yes. So what was life like growing up?
[00:21:21] Aarti Kumar Rao: It was kind of funny because we saw everybody around us, they got their first cars and they got everything, you know. And then Papa was like, no, I'm not going to get a car. You have your cycle, you walk, whatever, you know, do it, go up to. And we lived in a colony. So my father worked for the Tatas. And again, that was another, you know, huge dichotomy because he's working for a thermal power company, but he wants to build a biogas plant. They did allow him in all fairness. They allowed him to do a lot of those things, but it was a fight. It was a struggle all the time. Right. And so I'm seeing all this. And then in our house, there would be no pest control because chemicals. We cooked in a solar cooker. And so, which you said was also, so we cooked in a solar cooker. So we would make rice and my sister and I would run up to the terrace and, you know, kind of turn it towards the sun so that, you know, it would constantly get a certain amount of heat. And the dal didn't come out as well, but then, you know, but still. So we were doing all those things. Papa never bought a car in all of his life. My mom and my dad always used public transport. And we grew up with those kinds of values as well. And Papa always wore khadi. He was like, no, that's, you know, you do it by hand. It's a thing, you know. There is a whole history again with the loom and, you know, what all happened to Indians and so on. So Papa was very clear about what he was and what he was not. And of course, growing up, for me, sometimes that was hard because I was like, you know, can't do this, can't do that. I don't have this, don't have that, that kind of thing. But looking back now, my God, I salute him because it's just taught me what a conviction and holding on to your own values in the face of so much opposition. Yeah, and so as kids, we were like, conflicted about it. Because, you know, he would wake us up at 5 a.m. and take us to Sanjay Gandhi National Park. Go look at birds and stuff like that. We'd walk for 14 kilometers on a Sunday, which was the only day because our school was Monday to Saturday. So Sunday was the only day we got. And then we were grown. But once we were in the forest, oh my God, oh my God, you know, just absolutely fantastic. And then we'd come out of after 14 kilometers and there would be a little shack outside and we drink like energy, bottles and bottles of energy. Do you remember energy? Is it still there? I don't even know if it's there. I don't know energy. But I'm assuming it's like. It's a milk drink. Right. That will hydrate you and refresh you.
[00:24:02] Speaker 3: Whatever.
[00:24:03] Aarti Kumar Rao: It was cold. That's all. We just grand chugged it. But yeah. So as kids, we were conflicted. But now looking back, I think we had the best of both because mummy was a communicator. And she would, you know, for her English grammar, everything was like, it has to be perfect. You're not going to, you know, kind of make those stupid mistakes. So that taught us communication and, you know, storytelling. And Papa was with, you know, all of his other. So that's the blend that's in. That's the blend. Yeah. It keeps me up at night sometimes when, you know, either one is off.
[00:24:40] Speaker 3: So it's not off at all in the book, I have to say. But I have to come to you in terms of saying that we all know, at least when it comes to our fraternity, when it comes to Mumbai, when it comes to the environment. There are very few names, your name will be number one, if you want to call somebody who's a known face, certainly to speak about the environment. And what everyone appreciates about you is that you walk the walk and you talk the talk. And you've had a fantastic journey from the beginning, whether it was modeling to films to all of that. But this passion and this connection that you spoke about in the beginning of this podcast, was it always there? Was it because of your family upbringing, because you also made a reference to the fact that your father was a lot like Aarti's father and the solar cooker?
[00:25:22] Dia Mirza: Yeah, I think it's a combination of many things. But I grew up in Hyderabad in the 80s with, you know, two parents. I mean, mom is an ardent gardener. She loves plants. She knows, you know, she knows every plant name there is. And so I grew up watching her and working with her, working with soil, planting, watching, you know, seasons change, replacing seasonal plants. Just like, and grew up in this beautiful, open, verdant space in Hyderabad that my early childhood had these rolling hills with streams and, you know, millions of year old rocks and just swinging and watching cobras slither by and mom just saying, stay still, let it go. And so there was no, so there was no introduction of fear for any species. Right. So we weren't afraid of lizards and cockroaches and snakes. And I mean, and we watched birds and, and Papa was mad. He was an artist. He traveled by road from Germany to India. He was in the country doing workshops with teachers on just how to keep creativity alive in education and how to use creativity to teach. And a very big part of that was to engage with nature. And that's what really kept your creativity alive. And he was building solar baskets and talking, discussing the black hole and had, of course, a very, very, very strong point of view on the capitalist structure that was emerging and, and how exploitative it was. I remember they, I mean, one of, one of the reasons why my parents separated was because my father had such a strong point of view about the projects that he would take on. He was an industrial fair, fair designer amongst other things. And he was, you know, offered to do this project. And he found out that the factory that he was asked to design, redesign, was spewing affluence into a nearby river. And he refused to take the job on despite the fact that they were paying him a lot of money. And we needed the money. Yeah. And I remember one of the most, like, loud fights between my parents was about this. And he said, no, I won't do it. And my mom was like, who's going to pay the bills? I mean, we've got to pay for her school. There's all of this expense. And we don't have the luxury to say no. He said, no, but we always have a choice. How old were you then? I must have been five. So I, I grew up with this and I lost Papa when I was nine. And I think when you kind of lose a parent that young, you also pedestalize and idolize them so much more. So I grew up believing that my dad was a hero and he was fallible and human and all of that. But he really was for me in my eyes. And interestingly, my adoptive father was also somebody who spent a lot of time outdoors and in nature. And he took me out a lot. So we would go sailing. We would go trekking. We would go to go on these, you know, picnics during the monsoons to Hussain Sagar and Gandhi Bait and spend time in the, in the ruins of, of Golconda Fort. And I think all of that time outdoors and the home that he, you know, raised me in was a home that had, oh, I get goosebumps. Even now we had this glorious backyard with mango trees and guava trees and chiku trees. And so I spent my childhood there then reading in the upper branches of these trees. And so I can't even begin to tell you what all that did for me. So then even in school, we were being spoken to about, and it wasn't really, they weren't telling us, they were talking to us and engaging with us and helping us identify habits and behaviors that were disrespectful. They were, they were wasteful. So I remember, you know, waiting for the pencil to get that shot before I replaced it, being conscientious about my consumption or use of paper. So we weren't one of those kids who would just keep crumpling up paper and throwing it. It exasperates me when I see it in cinema in any form of it, even to this day.
[00:29:57] Speaker 3: Or when people keep their, in Hollywood films, they keep the water running. Oh, my God, while they're brushing their teeth, I want to kill them. I have a full machine in the shower. I know.
[00:30:06] Dia Mirza: Stop it. Yes. I know. So that mindfulness about turning the tap off while you're brushing your teeth or you're soaping your hands or just bringing your attention to your behaviors and your consumption, especially your behaviors and consumption, all really stems from that, that bringing that childhood. And like many, many of us, I was also obviously sucked into a world of commodification. And as a model, my primary job really was to sell everything. And it's very interesting because I felt so dichotomous for so long. You were conflicted then. Absolutely. It's not like this is a new engagement with the planet. Not at all. Not at all. In fact, I felt conflicted even in so many of the parts that I was playing because I realized that they didn't carry the integrity or the intelligence or the ethos that I carried. Right. And if I was not able to embody that spirit in the parts that I was playing at some level or the other, then what was I standing for? And then your father's voice comes to you saying you always have a choice. Yes. Yes. And I stepped back in 2005. I took a two-year sabbatical at what is considered your prime. Prime. I was 24. And I said, I don't like what I'm doing. I'm not having fun. I made money. I'm independent. I have a home I can call my own in a city that now is mine because it's embraced me. And I don't have to worry about my bills, but this is not making me happy. And that's when I realized that I needed to go back to myself. So, it was like a homecoming of sorts. And ever since I've been able to integrate the stories that are connected to this value system in some way or the other, even in the most mainstream films. So, the parts that are now bringing themselves to me really are the parts that kind of embody that spirit.
[00:32:20] Speaker 3: I see that completely. And I think that now… So, it's what you call alignment? That awareness and now people will know that they will come to you. And I think if it is mainstream, all the better because that's what people are consuming. That's what people are watching. So, if you can get the message in that vehicle, then it will actually be heard and amplified. Because we're talking about ecofeminism, I wanted to ask you when you became aware of that connection between women and the environment and how we treat women and how we treat the earth.
[00:32:46] Dia Mirza: Very young. I must have been in school, like I said, just seeing the struggle with water. Yeah. I think that's the most immediate and apparent struggle. And then when I saw and witnessed stories of young girls in vulnerable communities who were dropping out of school because their fathers didn't have a good crop yield. You know, I grew up with stories of sisters who shared their uniforms. So, they would go on alternate days to school because they had one school uniform. I think that comes from exposure really, Soha. It's about who your parents expose you to when you're growing up, the organizations that you kind of, you know, electively work with and you learn from. And then, of course, how aware you are of what's happening in the world around you. Yes. You know, one of the conditions that my dad had was I had to read the newspaper every day. Yeah. Front to back. Yeah. He would say, don't read every article. You have to know every headline and you should have read at least one article on every page. I wouldn't put that condition for my children today because I'm not sure how much of that news is real. And now we have this algorithm. Yes. Yes. But I mean, okay. So, the point is that it was very, very important to grow up and be, grow up being informed. And it's something that has carried through. Yeah. Even though I live in a, work in an industry that is so insulating and can also be so escapist because, you know, you have security, you're working in bubbles for the most part. You're not really interacting with life so much. And especially if, you know, you're very young and you are a perceived star. Yes. You're not necessarily walking into the market and getting a sense of "Bhindi ka on liyaaz ka daam ki hai aaj". But I think I just made damn sure that I was rooted and I was working and engaged with reality. It was when I did Ganga, the soul of India, which was the travel show from the source of Ganga, Gangotri, all the way to Ganga Sagar. It was slow travel with this really intimate team through five states of India. It was, it was, it was a, it was a turning point for me because I, everything just became so visible. The beauty, the magic of nature, because you see it in this pristine environment and you realize, Oh my God, this river has been revered in worship for centuries and why? And then you see how exploitative and indifference and just so many things that start to happen in the, and the kind of pollution and filth that starts entering this river. And it's such a revelation because you see how women and children and girls are treated is, is also so deeply juxtaposed with that river. I mean, you call her Ganga Ma. Yeah. And you, you're spitting everything. Defiling her in every way. Defiling her in every way. Yeah.
[00:36:10] Speaker ?: And you're okay with it.
[00:36:11] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[00:36:12] Dia Mirza: You're just okay with it. And not talk, I mean, not to mention the thousands of crores that have been assigned to clean her, but the abject failure in doing so. But then you also, like for me, I saw, I mean, whether it was Uttarakhand or Uttar Pradesh or like just the states, the way the river flowed and the, and the, and the way women were treated. It was, it was so revealing. And I think that for me was a turning point. I'm sorry. I, I said much more than I intended to, but it kind of took me somewhere.
[00:36:48] Speaker 3: And it's when you, when you journey and when you meander. Yeah. Is when you experience.
[00:36:53] Dia Mirza: Yeah. Because I saw ghost villages so hard. I saw women, predominantly women working in the fields. Yeah. I saw very few men. And when I did see men, I saw men on some substance or the other. They were either addicted to good car or they were drinking alcohol. I saw very old men remaining in. We should talk about rural villages. Yeah. Yeah. And, and when I was talking to the women, I realized that the men had left. Mm-hmm. They'd gone to the cities. Mm-hmm. To do labor.
[00:37:28] Speaker ?: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:29] Dia Mirza: And the women were left behind to deal with the flooding. Yeah. To deal with the droughts. Yeah. To deal with the pressure. They were doing backbreaking work, soul crushing work. They had no one and nothing to support them. And I think when I saw little girls struggling to just be allowed to go to school. Yeah. I think all of that then becomes so glaringly evident. And then as with my role with the UN, I receive a lot of data. Yeah. And statistics. And when COVID happened. Yeah. That then really magnified the fractures of society. Yeah. Because you realized, oh my God, we've had a 60% dropout of rural children. But 60% is girls. Yeah. The boys are continuing to go to school. The girls are not. So, it is a gender issue.
[00:38:29] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[00:38:30] Dia Mirza: And climate. And now with, I mean, with so much more reportage, thankfully, because I think it's making people more aware and helping them understand how brutal this reality is. But you see what's happening in Uttarakhand, in Himachal, in Punjab, in Jammu and Kashmir. And you see how that then impacts lives, livelihoods, women and children. Okay. Ecofeminism is a thing. Ecofeminism is a thing.
[00:38:59] Speaker 3: Ecofeminism is a thing. And the fact that you explained that by saying that the men are absent, that they're working, that they've moved. The women are there. And I know, Aarti, you speak about this a lot also. Or they're numb. Or they're numb or they're on something. Yeah. And I'm putting on my glasses only because… That time of the day. Yeah. I want to read from Marginlands, which is this beautiful book because you have… Thank you so much. Ecofeminism, like Dia said, she travelled. And it's only through travelling and spending. Sometimes you go to cover a story and you think you're going to be back in a couple of days. And then you call your boss and say, it's going to take me a year. Because I've been told that I need to be here as the seasons change. Yes.
[00:39:32] Dia Mirza: And that takes a year. But that awareness, Soha also came from the travel as a childhood. Yes. And she's reflected so deeply with her choice. Yeah. To not be a visiting storyteller. Right. To the fact that she realized and recognized how important it is to live with the land. Yeah. Live with the people. Yeah. And watch seasons change with them. Yeah. And see how the land changes with them and how they change with the land through the seasons.
[00:39:59] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[00:40:00] Dia Mirza: Yeah. And that is what makes her writing so innovative. And how, like over time, they have figured out ways.
[00:40:07] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. And to exist.
[00:40:10] Aarti Kumar Rao: Exactly. And those are the ones that will endure. And how. You know, that's called resilience. Right.
[00:40:16] Speaker 3: So. But I mean, I want you to speak for yourself. I just want to read because your writing is so beautiful. And I'm really sorry. I underlined. Please. What job. I do this all the less. So my mother will not be happy. Really. That I'm treating my books like this. But I think it's love. Yeah. And it's the only way I remember also. So very quickly, I'll put on my glasses. Because you talk about on, in your book, Margin Lands, why women are central to the environmental crisis and what the environmental crisis is. And you've said it is slow violence. Yeah. Which is a term that really stayed with me. And you said it's a kind of destruction that unleashes itself incrementally over seasons, often over generations. It's unspectacular, sometimes imperceptible. It can be spatially dispersed. A disruption in one place can affect landscapes and lives several hundred miles away. Those who live in these landscapes and ecosystems themselves die by a thousand cuts. Mm-hmm. So it is this slow violence that you may not even understand what is happening to you and why. Dia has spoken about how through her travel she's, you want to say something? Yeah. Say, say. I do, but I don't want to interrupt you. Oh, but then I'll, okay. I've already forgotten now since you interrupted me. Oh. But I've, so with your travel and with your spending, with your seeing this slow violence, the environmental degradation, that connection with women, and you've spoken about it in that you'll ask the questions, it'll be the men that answer. Always. But the women have something to say. Yeah. And you need to spend some time with them. Perhaps you go into the kitchen and you watch them cook and you make them comfortable and you earn their trust. And then they share with you stories of how this slow violence has impacted them. Mm-hmm. So tell us some of those stories. So, do you want to say what you wanted to say?
[00:41:56] Aarti Kumar Rao: Before you forget. Because you were bursting. Yeah. In case you forget like me. I remember her question, so.
[00:42:01] Dia Mirza: No, it's very, I just wanted to bring in an urban context. But once you're done with what you're saying. Because in Thailand effect. Uh-huh. And what it's doing to women, again, in vulnerable communities who live with no cooling systems. Mm-hmm. What that's doing to sleep, with sleep deprivation. Yes. How that impacts their health, their hormones, their lives, their wellbeing, their everything.
[00:42:25] Speaker 3: I understand the value of sleep at this stage in my life, hugely. Yeah. Yeah. So, when you're done.
[00:42:31] Aarti Kumar Rao: Yeah. It could be a question. This is, it's such like everybody, because there's so much here, you know. Yeah.
[00:42:38] Dia Mirza: It's really wonderful.
[00:42:39] Aarti Kumar Rao: It's a lot to unpack, but. Before I forget. So, thank you for even choosing to speak about this. Because people like you, you have large mouthpieces. And I feel it's such a wasted opportunity when I see people with huge mouthpieces saying absolutely nothing. Nothing. But saying a lot. Yeah. I mean, they say a lot. But it's not about anything that's, that's central to survival today. But, and so, thank you again. You know, we talked about water, right? We talked about water, people, women going to fetch water and stuff like that. I had a huge aha moment when I went for the first time to the desert and I spent time with the women. They, they do a rainwater harvesting, right? Yes. So, it's close to their village. And so, morning and evening, they have to go and get the water from there. I met men, different from, not from the village, men who said, "Oh, but that's why we have the canal and we have the pipes. We want to give pipes, piped water." And the women said, "No way. We don't want piped water." I know this. So, and I was like, you know, I went there with my city thought, "Oh, you get piped water, you'll have time to do other things." Right. That's what I'm thinking. And so, I go there and this is a part which is very close to the border. And this is Rajasthan where a lot of people are in parda and stuff, women are in parda. So, what I realized when I sat with these women at the well, morning and evening, I used to walk with them. They would go singing and coming back singing. I even have those recordings. It's absolute fun. So, I'm sitting with them at the well and I tell them that, you know, so, isn't this like, you know, time wasted, blah, blah, all those things that we have been taught to believe. And they said, "This is the only time we get to meet other women." It's their social time. It's their social time. They will not give it up for anything. They said, "If you give us piped water, that's it. We'll never leave." You won't be able to share. Yeah. We'll never leave home. Those walls will be like… You don't even think about it. I don't even think about it. I was talking to someone and I said, "Oh, but then, you know, they might have some free time to do." Free time to do what? This is… Yeah. This is the fabric of their society. Right. And you would be rending it by just doing what you think is right. Now, of course, the piped water had other problems. So, never mind that. But, you know, so, we go or we think we know how various things affect women. And what I realized, I think, in these 10-12 years of doing this work the most is that no two situations are the same.
[00:45:14] Dia Mirza: You know, there's a statistic about women that collect water in the country. 182 days are spent collecting water. They spend 182 days a year collecting water. It's crazy.
[00:45:28] Aarti Kumar Rao: It's crazy. But that's the thing, right? So, and then there are places where collecting water is a threat to their life even. So, in places like Sundarbans and stuff like that, you know, where you have various other things going on. It was a very real, I mentioned it in the book, where I was walking back and forth once and it was from a lady, a widow who had lost her husband to the tiger. The tiger widow? Yeah. There's a whole chapter on that. And what? She had lost her father and her uncle to a tiger too. So, I was spending time with her and then I was staying in a small little place. I used to walk every day. The morning I would walk, spend the whole day with her and come back at night. One day somebody asked me, "Aren't you afraid? Why are you walking back and forth?" I was like, "Afraid of what?" So, they said, "This is where the tiger hides." And they just pointed out to the dhan, you know, the paddy fields. That's it. The next step I took, I would look at paddy fields and there would be this rustling of wind through it and I'm like, "God." That's what they live with. And the women live with that kind of fear because they're in the village. Their husbands leave to go, you know, get fish and crab and stuff like that. They don't know whether they'll make it back. They don't know if they'll be attacked. There have been enough and more attacks in the village. So, you know, beyond climate change. Climate change is a huge cloud over all of this. But at a very basic level, the women who work with the land, oh my God. They really have, it's a hard, it's a crazy hard life. And like Dia mentioned, the things we are doing to the land, we are either making it completely unviable to even do agriculture or fish or any of those things. So the traditional livelihoods are all one by one becoming unviable. What do the men do? They up and leave and migrate to the cities and they do crushing terrible labor here. It's not a happy life here either. Like she said, the women who are left behind are left behind in landscapes which don't have schools. They don't have women and children. Hospitals, these women, when they get pregnant, they have to be, they have to walk four kilometers sometimes to give birth. And of course, then maternal mortality, infant mortality, it's just like out the roof, you know. So there are, so statistics sometimes don't tell the whole story. And like she said, when you're going down a river and you're actually seeing it, you're like, oh my God, there's a completely, there are so many different Indias within India.
[00:48:04] Speaker 3: And, you know, you said in your book also that out of all the biodiversity hotspots that exist all over the world, I think four of them exist in India. And we've seen how rapidly, you know, since the 80s or maybe before, ecological, in economic change, development, sometimes rapid, sometimes unplanned, is really devastating a lot of that area. And then that impact which you've highlighted on women being so important. What I wanted to ask you is, you spoke about the Sundarbans, you spoke about Thar, you've spoken about some of these powerful learnings, dams, for example. You said this river, it meanders. If you follow it, you'll see how rivers do meander and they have through time. Now, because in the need of providing irrigation, in the need of trying to harness water as a source of energy, energy, which I suppose we understand because we want to develop, these things are done, but it has an impact. There's perhaps a way of doing it, perhaps we haven't done it the right way. I remember ages ago reading Arundhati Roy's Damned Nation, how many dams we have. Yeah. But talk to us a little bit, because we see now with every monsoon, there's flooding. Right now what's happening in Punjab. It's not the first time. There have been devastating floods in different parts of the country. Yeah. And people understand, attribute part of it to climate change, but a lot of it is also man-made. Yeah. Tell us about that, because that's happening right now.
[00:49:34] Aarti Kumar Rao: You know, I think that's what Dia was, I think we were talking about it before we got, we went live, where it's happening because we've lost the connect.
[00:49:42] Dia Mirza: Yeah.
[00:49:43] Aarti Kumar Rao: With nature. Connect with land, connect with nature. It's a very elemental relationship. It's something that it's who we are. We're made of water. We're made of these things, right? We come from the land. And when we lose that, we're really at loss. And then it becomes like, oh, this is a place to be acquired and built upon. But very clearly, for example, in Dharaliya, you know, where the little Nala created a crazy devastation. Where did it devastate? It devastated because there was an old path of the little Nala over there, upon which the new town had been built. And then the river remembers. Yeah. You know, it's going to come back. That, it's just basic physics. The river will find its, you know, water will find its… You know, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
[00:50:34] Speaker 3: In our own homes in the monsoon, you know, water finds its way. It finds its way. Through the walls, through the cracks.
[00:50:39] Aarti Kumar Rao: Exactly. It does. And if you go and build on a place which was once water, and you think that you have, you have tamed nature, you have dominated what we were talking about, right? It's a big mentality. You shouldn't say male mentality, no? It is. Okay. Male mentality. Of thinking that there's power. Dominance. We have the power. Dominance. Dominance. And that we can control, we can tame women and nature and everything. Right? If anybody has…
[00:51:07] Dia Mirza: Nature says, "Shut up."
[00:51:08] Aarti Kumar Rao: No, exactly. Nature has other… Nature says, "Shut up." Shut up. You don't know what the heck you're doing. If anybody has been to the Brahmaputra, you know that river is wild. It's mad, right? Yeah. And it's mad beautiful. And what are you going to do? You're going to build embankments to straightjack at that river? You're going to build embankments to straightjack at any river? It's silly. And it's not going to work. And it has not worked. And there has… And yet… Yet… Even two days ago, there was going to be a huge number of trees felled in Himachal. You know, the thing is that…
[00:51:47] Dia Mirza: I'd like to add to this because I think it can be opened up into a little wider understanding. When I first started seeing all of this news on degradation across the country, obviously, now people approach me with like… They're cutting 10,000 trees here, and they're cutting 1 lakh trees here, and 2 lakh trees. And I'm like constantly bombarded with this information. I keep asking why. I think three things are fundamental to this reality. One, this disconnect with nature. That people in positions of power, they're just totally disconnected with the natural world. Yeah. And they're disconnected with the basic understanding that everything in life is connected. It's connected.
[00:52:29] Aarti Kumar Rao: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:52:31] Dia Mirza: Two, it's because of this arrogance and this egotism. Yeah. But it's also because capitalism has convinced people, and it's not a part of the economics of the world, that environmental action is obstructionism. Yeah.
[00:52:55] Aarti Kumar Rao: It's a bad guy. It's a bad…
[00:52:57] Dia Mirza: Yes. Yeah. So if you are standing up for ecological health, you are coming in the way of progress. Yeah. Now, so I think it compels then, begs the question, what defines progress? Right. What defines peace? Right. What defines peace? Right. And what defines health? Right. Because if you look at the identity, like the reality that we are, we identify with as perceived progress, practically everything that we think is convenient is actually harmful. Right? Everything. Take, for example, the air conditioner. Mm-hmm. It's cooling the inside, but it's heating the planet. Yeah. And the more of these systems that you incorporate, the worse, the more heat you're generating in a city. Yes. And so you're compounding the issue of heat island. Right. But you are so stupid. I actually started a hashtag called WeAreStupid about 10 years ago. Mm-hmm. I had to discontinue using it. I think we should bring it back. We should bring it back. We should bring it back. Who told you to discontinue using it? Stupid and idiotic.
[00:54:16] Aarti Kumar Rao: Cover that now.
[00:54:17] Dia Mirza: We'll just add that. Hashtag WeAreStupid. Human beings are just stupid. And then practically everything that we have innovated or created for convenience is harmful to human health.
[00:54:29] Aarti Kumar Rao: Yeah. And you know, one thing, if people love development so much and they say, oh, environmentalists are against development, how about this as a statistic? 6% of our GDP is lost to environmental degradation. Why? You don't need to do it that way. Right. We are not against development. Right. We're against, we're for appropriate development. Frankly, the thing that passes for development is construction right now.
[00:54:54] Dia Mirza: It's ironic that this is happening in our land. Yeah. In a land like India that has possibly the richest environmental movements, knowledge, information, education. Right.
[00:55:11] Speaker 3: We are the land that reveres. And a lot of that's stemming from women. Absolutely. You go to the Chipko movement. Absolutely.
[00:55:18] Aarti Kumar Rao: Even before the Chipko movement in 1730. Ooh. That's a long time. Yeah. Near Chodhpur. The Maharaja wanted to cut down a whole bunch of Khejari trees. Khejaris are these gorgeous, gorgeous. They're called Tulsi's of the desert. Beautiful they are. Massive things. They're very giving. Every part of the tree is used. And this Maharaja wanted to cut it down. And the Vishnois, this lady, Amrita Devi, she said, no way. She gathered a whole bunch of women and they hugged the tree. This is 1730, almost 300 years before where we're sitting today. They were killed. Yeah. Those trees went. They were killed. But that was the one beginning.
[00:55:58] Dia Mirza: It's the start of the beginning. I mean, it's what Vangari Mathai would have possibly been inspired by. But I think until this perception of development doesn't change, until people genuinely understand that an unhealthy environment, a broken ecological system is the unraveling of everything that
[00:56:25] Speaker 3: we are working. Which we feel. At least in Mumbai, every so often in December and in January, everybody starts to wake up and talk about the AQI and talk about pollution and our children are not going to school. And then it settles down. I want to explore that with you because you've said a few things that have been controversial to other people in relation to this, in terms of the definition of progress, in terms of who you wish perhaps were making or calling the shots. But because you spoke about nature and not being, especially people who are forming policy, not really understanding or being connected to nature, because I love your writing so much.
[00:57:01] Aarti Kumar Rao: I like reading from your book. Thank you, Suha.
[00:57:03] Speaker 3: Page 223 I mark. This other nature, which I thought was so well put. We think of nature as being elsewhere. It's now a tourist generation, a tourist destination that we can enjoy on weekends for a few hours of detox. We're supposed to always be around us. Our relationship with it is now transactional rather than integral. Yeah. Oh God. And I was thinking, you know, like perhaps, like we go, somebody else was saying that, you know, for example, if a tree, when you cut it down, if it screamed, when you go fishing, if those fish screamed, if they spoke about, you know, and the violence that is being inflicted on them, perhaps some of us, not all of us would stop. Because some of us are still not deterred by that. But some of us might stop. But because they don't have a voice, then we have people like yourselves who speak and are sometimes heard, are sometimes not. Yeah, you've spoken about the fact that the male ego, that that is a cause for a lot of the disasters that are happening in ecology and the environment. And that sentiment, that statement got a big response from people, which you will know more about than I do. Do you think that if we had more women in positions of power pertaining to this, that they would do things differently?
[00:58:19] Dia Mirza: Women who weren't talking men. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:58:23] Aarti Kumar Rao: So important, what you just said. Yeah. So important.
[00:58:26] Dia Mirza: Because there are a lot of women in positions of power, who aren't speaking women. Yeah. They're speaking men. And because they're doing it, because they aspire to control. Exactly. And do exactly what men have done, which is why for me, the suit is so symbolic of that mindset.
[00:58:44] Aarti Kumar Rao: No, my dad hates suits. Yeah.
[00:58:46] Dia Mirza: The suit. The suit. The pantsuit. Oh, I see. The suit. Yeah. Yes. The tie. Women don't need to wear a suit to perform a role or a job. Because that's exactly what we don't want women to do. We don't want them to become a suit. No. We don't want them. Because for me, the suit is a representation of dominance, of oppression.
[00:59:12] Aarti Kumar Rao: And of monoculture thinking.
[00:59:15] Dia Mirza: Yes. Of exploitation. Okay. And that's exactly what we need to break. So yes, we need many more women to assume the roles and the responsibilities that can make us a more kind, a more inclusive, a more generous, a more thinking and feeling world. And what would you like to see them do differently? I think women should start with understanding the role that they play in bringing balance. I think it's been something that has been imposed on them in a very different way. You know, it's been forced on them. But I think it's important to kind of internalize and recognize that it's innate to us. And when we speak about balance, it's not about accommodating and adjusting to the male egos that you're surrounded by. But just understanding how critical and powerful the kindness in their heart is. And to never be embarrassed or ashamed of it. And to never be embarrassed or ashamed of their vulnerability. To never, ever shake off their tears. To always, always…
[01:00:32] Aarti Kumar Rao: Isn't it a bad thing to be emotional these days?
[01:00:35] Dia Mirza: Yes, of course it is. It's horrible. It's a sign of weakness. Weakness. No, no. It's worse than weakness. It's a taboo.
[01:00:42] Aarti Kumar Rao: I know. And I think that, again, comes from that whole Silicon Valley thinking. Yeah. I'm sorry I said it now.
[01:00:46] Dia Mirza: Yeah.
[01:00:47] Aarti Kumar Rao: I'm going to have a ton of people trolling me. But it's terrible. Yeah. Because that's done away with kindness. It's done away with empathy. It's done away with connection.
[01:00:56] Dia Mirza: Authenticity.
[01:00:57] Aarti Kumar Rao: Authenticity.
[01:00:58] Dia Mirza: Yeah. So, as women, as mothers, there's, especially as mothers, we need to reconnect with nature. We need to discover that while, you know, we focus on nutrition and exercise and all of these things, what's fundamental to our well-being is that time that we spend in nature every day. And to be able to really just perceive the richness and the abundance that the natural world gives us, that we need to recognize as our true riches, we need to spend more time in nature.
[01:01:35] Speaker 3: And I'm going to ask you to expand on that question when we come to that. Aarti, I wanted to ask you, because, you know, we've spoken about how women should speak women. And there have been women. And we've spoken about Dr. Shibha, for example. How do we, for the women who have been leaders in this, how can we amplify those voices? Support each other. Yeah. Celebrate each other.
[01:02:00] Aarti Kumar Rao: And I think not be ashamed or be unabashedly woman. You know, it's really important to be woman in your multifaceted. You contain multitudes. I'm borrowing that from someone. But that, we're so afraid of showing different sides of ourselves or different moods. And we are allowing ourselves to be straight-jacketed into a lifestyle which is clearly not working. Right? So, be unabashedly. And I think when there are people who are speaking out, and they might be really tiny people. They may not be speaking English. They may not be, they may not live in houses like us. They may not dress like us. Right? I just thought of something. Yes.
[01:02:46] Dia Mirza: Yes. Please. Please do. Come on. Don't allow yourselves to fall bait to a culture that feeds insecurity. Say more. Tell you. The cosmetic industry. The fashion industry. The advertising world has been programming you to believe you're not good enough. That there is something external that is going to validate your beauty. Mm-hmm. Your authenticity. Your fierceness. Mm-hmm. See it for what it is. Mm-hmm. And recognize that it is a male-dominated world that has programmed you to be insecure. Right. And therein then comes the question and the importance of supporting each other as women. Celebrating each other as women. And the differences. Validating each other as women. Yes. Yeah. And acknowledging each other's differences. Yeah. And being steadfast. Right. In that acknowledgement. And saying, it's okay. Yeah. I may not agree with you. Yeah. We may not be the same. We may not have the same values or mindset. But I respect you. Yes. And I accept you. For who you are. For who you are.
[01:04:04] Aarti Kumar Rao: And not put them down. Yeah. How many women do we see who laugh at these jokes that are clearly patriarchal? How many of them will say "Bhenji" to a girl who dresses in a Slovakian? Aunty. Aunty. I'm an Aunty Bhenji. Whatever you like to call me. But that's the thing. Right. It's just…
[01:04:22] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[01:04:23] Aarti Kumar Rao: I'm Buddhi. Oh, yes. You cross the circle. But the thing is, and women will do this to women. Yes. And we just… I think it's… Let's recognize it for… It's… Like I love to say, patriarchy is not about men. Feminism is not about women. There are enough and more patriarchal women. And there are enough and more feminist men. Yeah. And I think it's that thinking. It's that attitude. It's that… It's that mental makeup where respect comes above all. And if it is an Adiwasi lady who's picking Mauwa flowers, follow it back to see why. What is it about Mauwa? You know, instead of saying, "Oh, no. You know what? She'd be better if she worked in something else and then she can get…" Follow it back to see why the Mauwa is important. What does it do for their culture? Right? Where is that leading her? What joy does it give her? Celebrate that.
[01:05:17] Speaker 3: Maybe just start by talking to her.
[01:05:19] Aarti Kumar Rao: Yes, talk to… Listen to her. Listen to her. Listen to her. And I think people like us who are out there telling stories or amplifying voices, I think it's so important. I've tried… I hope I've succeeded to do it in Marjan Lands, where it's not me speaking. I've just tried to bubble up that because they have so much wisdom to share. Yes. So much. Even the men who are working with the land, I call them the… You know, they're feminists in their own way.
[01:05:48] Dia Mirza: Oh, yeah.
[01:05:49] Aarti Kumar Rao: They are so with it. They're there. They understand it. They're feeling it. They are feeling it with all their senses. They're walking through the world and not sleepwalking through it. Yes. Oh, my God. What happened?
[01:06:04] Speaker 3: Even I want to… But I'll forget. Let me say first. I've got brain fog. You spoke about shepherds walking, feeling with their feet. And that was also beautiful. If you can just make a reference to that. Of how they find water. Oh, yeah. In like the middle of a desert.
[01:06:17] Aarti Kumar Rao: I was shocked. So, I'm in the desert. You know the story. I'm sure, dear. I'm in the desert. It's been 22 months since they've had rain. This is the thar, deep thar near the Pakistan border, right? So, this friend of mine, he's a shepherd farmer and my guide, guru, everything. He takes me. We go and sit on top of a dune.
[01:06:36] Speaker ?: He doesn't say anything.
[01:06:37] Aarti Kumar Rao: You can't make him say anything. You ask him questions. He won't answer. You just sit and wait. So, I'm sitting and waiting. And he digs. He digs into the dune. And six inches in, he comes up with wet sand. It hasn't rained for 22 months. They're almost in a drought situation. But, and I look at him and I say, I'm asking him, how is this wet? He says, come. So, we go down, most ungainly, but we go down the dune. And at the bottom of the dune, there are these hand-dug wells, which are still giving. There's been a shepherd who has just come with his huge flock, pulled up water. And you put your ear to the well and you can hear drops of water. It's just refilling itself. They know that the separateness of, you know, sand allows water to go in. And dunes hold water in their bellies. And that's how they refill these wells at the bottom of the dunes. How would we ever know that? But these people have walked these districts. They know what to do. They know how to do. They know which plant they can eat.
[01:07:38] Dia Mirza: And their children know. And we have no right to remove them from that situation.
[01:07:42] Aarti Kumar Rao: The children don't know. That's what's scary. But that's dying.
[01:07:45] Dia Mirza: That is the problem. That's the scary part. That is the problem. Yes. That and the language is dying.
[01:07:50] Aarti Kumar Rao: Language is dying. The knowledge is going. Wisdom is going. It's going.
[01:07:55] Speaker 3: And then there are people, of course, who come from…
[01:07:57] Dia Mirza: Because the mobile phone has reached far and wide. My turn to say. I've got to touch the line. Go for it.
[01:08:05] Aarti Kumar Rao: It's a quote from Aldo Leopold. I quote it. If you've heard me talk, I say it all the time. But he said this in 1949. And it still… Sticks back.
[01:08:14] Speaker 3: We will keep talking about it if it's still relevant.
[01:08:17] Aarti Kumar Rao: It is. So he says, civilization has so cluttered the elemental man-earth relationship with gadgets and middlemen that awareness of that relationship is growing dim. We imagine industry is what supports us. Forgetting what supports industry. Yeah.
[01:08:33] Speaker 3: It's so true.
[01:08:35] Aarti Kumar Rao: Yeah. 1949.
[01:08:37] Speaker 3: Yeah. Which leads me to Ninna's question. So my friend Niranjana, who you know, asks a question for every podcast. And it's usually like a controversial question. She likes to be controversial. She likes to be right. Sometimes she has not been right. So she says that ecofeminism is not a new movement. It is actually an ancient and a very inherent connection with our earth, with our planet, nature that actually patriarchal systems have oppressed. Yes. I only ask you this because I think you've already just answered it. Yeah. So it would be an opportune time for you to…
[01:09:04] Dia Mirza: It's a clear, emphatic answer is absolutely. I agree with her. One hundred percent. Yeah. I think ecofeminism is the most innate part of every ancient culture. Absolutely. And continues with even… Till this day. If they remember it. Yes. Yes. Indigenous communities. They know it till this day. Completely agree.
[01:09:29] Aarti Kumar Rao: In fact, if you ask the people in the hills who have been having all these floods, they've been saying that when we build the way we used to build, those have not been washed away. No. We know that we don't build this low. We know what the high line of floods is. We know to build above it. We know what part of the hill… We know where to cut the hill. We know where to cut the hill. Yes. Exactly. We know where to cut the hill. So it's all… And thank you for asking this question, Niranjana. Yes. Thank you for asking this question, Niranjana, because it really underlines what the ethos of margin lands is. If you listen to the land, you're not going to go wrong. Right. That's all there is to it.
[01:10:06] Speaker 3: And that's what ecofeminism is. That's it. That's all it is. Then there are some vested interests perhaps that come in and then they say this land is arid. This land is useless. It's wasteland.
[01:10:15] Dia Mirza: Let's do some mining. Can I give you a statistic?
[01:10:17] Speaker 3: When?
[01:10:18] Dia Mirza: If we continue to produce and consume at the rate that we are, we will need seven Earths in the next two years. In the next 20 years, sorry. And as we know, there's no planet B. That is not something that anybody's even considering. Because the primary, the cause of all our problems and all of our misery is the fact that we think that the Earth is this endless supplier of everything that we need.
[01:10:45] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[01:10:46] Dia Mirza: And that we can continue using and extracting and exploiting without giving back. Yeah. There's a very powerful movement underway right now. And I hope it really catches on, which is to give nature back. Mm-hmm. To give nature back 50%. So to give nature the space to reclaim itself, because we've noticed that wherever we have allowed nature to just do her thing, she's not only survived, but she has thrived. Mm-hmm. So now you have billionaires reform, like just regenerating lands. Mm-hmm. They're buying up forests that are under threat and allowing them to get regenerated. Yeah. It's happening. There are also billionaires who want to control natural resources. Mm-hmm. So they're buying up large tracts of land, especially land that has water. Mm-hmm. With, of course, the understanding that in the next 15, 20 years, water is going to be the single most scarce commodity. And they want to control it. And COVID, I'm sure, lockdown, just immediately it was like reprieve for the world. Yeah, I did. Right. It was also very obvious.
[01:12:04] Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it's an experiment that we could not have conducted to prove. Yeah. If you walk away from the sea.
[01:12:09] Aarti Kumar Rao: And the flip side of that is, if you keep encroaching, you're going to have many more zoonotic diseases.
[01:12:15] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[01:12:16] Aarti Kumar Rao: Because you're going to be going into lands where… You would have so many what?
[01:12:18] Speaker 3: Zoonotic.
[01:12:19] Aarti Kumar Rao: So that's diseases that hop from the wild or from an animal to humans. Pathogens. Which is what happened in COVID, right?
[01:12:27] Speaker 3: Right, right, right.
[01:12:28] Aarti Kumar Rao: So, and the more you encroach, the more you cut, the more you destroy where these things already live, you're putting yourself in harm's way. And this thing shut down the world for two years. God knows what the next pandemic is going to do. And it's not alarmist. It's just sense. You don't want to do this. Any scientist will tell you, you don't want to do this.
[01:12:52] Speaker 3: What I want to do is try and bring it close to home. We've spoken about, you know, some people feel when they're watching that this is happening in Thar. Ah, yes. You know, Rajasthan, it's happening in Sundarbans. It's not really affecting me. And we do tend to just put on our blinders. And until it's too late, we don't wake up. Or like I said, in like January, in Mumbai, we wake up and say, let's, you know, do something about pollution. So what I loved about the last one of the last chapters of your book was bringing it home to a city like Mumbai and being able to see how just in a small confined area, you don't have to travel wide, you don't have to do huge systemic changes. But if you can keep a few things alive, you can see the cumulative effect of that. Yeah. So in your more eloquent words, tell us a little bit about the bees in Mumbai. Oh, thank you.
[01:13:42] Aarti Kumar Rao: Mumbai, Bangalore, any of these cities that we're building, building, building, building, concrete, concrete, concrete. Bees can't make holes in concrete, right? So we're taking away nesting spaces for bees. And these bees are what, I mean, this goes back to that same thing, right? The disconnect, the following things back, making connections. What do bees do? Where do they get their pollen from? What do they do in life, right? They go to plants and they pollinate or they, in their interest for getting nectar, they're also, exactly, they're taking pollen from one place, putting into another and making fruit. What you eat, everything is done by pollinators, right? So like you were talking about, people are becoming very conscious about their health and nutrition and stuff like that. Where's all that coming from? It's coming back. You follow it back. You need to fix land systems to be able to do that kind of nutrition, to be able to be that healthy. Like you said, air that you breathe, water that you drink. How much of our water is polluted? 70% or 90% of our groundwater is polluted. Not fit for consumption. 70% of our surface water is polluted, our rivers and our, right? We may think that it's far away or it's in some other land. But nature, again, coming back to the fact that environment is not other, it's around us. Every time Bangalore floods, it costs GDP billions of dollars. It is hurting you. When you flout or you do not understand the way the land behaves or flows or the topography, forget that geography, the local geography, you're going to hurt yourself. It's not far away. No. You're not, you can't buy your way out of bad water or bad air. No.
[01:15:39] Dia Mirza: You know, Scandinavian countries now are digging up concrete and replacing it with the population systems. So now their cities don't flood anymore. Correct. I mean, there's a lot of innovation to guide, you know, urban planning and to kind of help us build, not just for climate resilience, but to kind of right the wrongs, so to speak. But I think the real issue is people don't have the will and the required sense of urgency to change the way we're building. No. I mean, when it comes to elections, nobody's ever trying to win votes on the basis of the environment or climate. No. Because, I mean, it's clearly not important, right?
[01:16:29] Aarti Kumar Rao: It's what slow violence is, right? It's imperceptible. You can't see it. It's not dhamakedar, you know, it's not like this beautiful thing.
[01:16:36] Speaker 3: But I mean, we do like, if you like, look at the Punjab floods, right now, for example, if you see that they flooded in 1988 or… Yeah, 40 years ago.
[01:16:43] Aarti Kumar Rao: 40 years ago.
[01:16:44] Speaker 3: 40 years ago. Yeah. And if you see that it's those areas that are meant to let the river… Flood plains. Flood plains. It's called flood plains. So then… You shouldn't be building that. You shouldn't be building that. It's pretty basic to me. Yes. Don't grow crops there. Don't build. Because there will be damage, there will be destruction. At least maintain those embankments. Yes.
[01:17:04] Aarti Kumar Rao: So, unfortunately, we got that as a legacy from the British. Rivers behave very differently in Europe. The Thames is very different from the Ganga or from the Sutlej or from the Bias. Here, we have them flooding, inundating regularly because that's how the silt fertilizes the land and that's how things grow. So, when you adopt blindly from another culture or another completely other milieu, why what's not good for… What's good for Punjab may not be what's good for Madhya Pradesh. Right. That's the very next, you know, neighboring states. None of it is going to… It doesn't work that way. And so, when you blindly take and you do it… And we kind of adopted it quite blindly, I would say. Many things which have harmed us in so many ways. It's really come back to hurt us. We need to do what's right for us. Right. And exactly like what Dia said, you cannot be… you cannot allow vested interests or interlopers to make those decisions for you. So, you know, if we are in… sitting in car, we put on our walking shoes, walk out to see how the things go and see what's right for car. Right. And be able to fight for that. Right. You know, when somebody comes and says, yeah, let's build a playground here. Playground might be a good thing, but that may not be the right place to build it. Right. So, let's educate ourselves about what, where, when, why, and who's pushing it. Right. Because there's always some kind of…
[01:18:37] Speaker 3: Right.
[01:18:38] Aarti Kumar Rao: Right?
[01:18:39] Speaker 3: So… You know, again, brings me back only because I've only read so much on it, but to Vandana Shiva and to just talk about biodiversity and then how certain people came in and said, no, now forget about all these seeds and just do this one. And what that means, what the Green Revolution did. Yeah. How we don't need to be hungry. Or what pesticides. What pesticides. When we have neem. How it emerged. Right. And why are we not using neem, which is so effective. How are people able to patent things like neem and turmeric, which is criminal, again, to do. Basmati rice. You know, these are patents that she's fought and continues to fight against. So, to understand that even that is happening in the world where somebody is trying to own a seed. Capitalism. Yeah. Capitalism. What is… Feminism is fighting. That's really… And I don't think people make those connections. Hopefully, I'm saying that there's so much to understand, but if they're able to even join a couple of dots in this conversation. Yeah.
[01:19:39] Aarti Kumar Rao: I don't know whether you've felt it, Tia, but every time we bring up something like, say, capitalism has caused this, what's thrown in my face is, communism hasn't worked. Look what it's done to other places. So, it becomes these labels. Okay, communism didn't work. That doesn't mean you have to go back to that. Right? Let's find a way. What are all these brains doing, right? We've got so much brain power.
[01:20:01] Dia Mirza: No, I don't think capitalism is the issue. It's the capitalism that is completely devoid of conscience that is the issue. So, it's the capitalist mindset that has been derived from the understanding that we can control and, you know, profitability at any cost. So, you know, you can kill biodiversity, you can destroy entire ecosystems. Displace people. You can displace communities and people and completely ravage the environment so long as you're making money.
[01:20:41] Aarti Kumar Rao: Money, yeah. The ends justify the means.
[01:20:45] Dia Mirza: But that is being now challenged and questioned. But tell me more about that. Because, I mean, I don't want to, that's a lot to unpack, Soha. But I know that they're leading economists now in the world. Economists, professors who are teaching economics. Yeah.
[01:21:03] Aarti Kumar Rao: And even Nobel Prize winners from India. Who are basically saying. Like Abhijit Panerjee. Yeah.
[01:21:07] Dia Mirza: You have Abhijit Panerjee. You have Jeffrey Sachs. I mean, people should read their books and understand that. And stuff I keep sending my husband all the time. Because he's in this world, right?
[01:21:18] Aarti Kumar Rao: Great. Sane.
[01:21:20] Dia Mirza: Dude, another thing. So many connections. They're all connected. So, basically, they're all saying something quite simple. Which is that the current model of economics has cracked, has fractured the world. Right. Has created inequalities that are insurmountable in many places, right? And that we're going to struggle. COVID made it even worse. And so, if we truly want to survive, firstly, and most importantly, if we would like to survive as a species, we need to rethink and redesign the economics of the world. So, it needs to be planet, people, and then profit. Those priorities. Those are the priorities.
[01:22:16] Aarti Kumar Rao: But now imagine the inconvenience of this thing.
[01:22:21] Dia Mirza: Okay. The problem and the inconvenience of this thing is that 1% of the world's population controls 90% of the world's money. And what is so stark and strange about this is that we are unable to get through to that 1% to convince them and help them understand that if you don't change the way you do business, we are all dying. Right. And we're not going to die happy deaths.
[01:22:52] Speaker ?: It's going to be very painful. I have no idea why we can't get through to that 1%.
[01:22:52] Aarti Kumar Rao: I'm wondering whether it's the case in Bengali that apparently there's a saying that you can't wake someone who only pretends to be asleep.
[01:23:10] Speaker 3: So, they know. They're doing this in full knowledge. No, but I mean I don't think like… And they feel that they're protected. No. That they have…
[01:23:16] Dia Mirza: No, they've apparently built themselves these… Eight, seventy-year-old white men.
[01:23:18] Aarti Kumar Rao: No, but…
[01:23:19] Dia Mirza: Yeah. They're these… Say it. There's no need to speak. Anyway, our mics are catching it. These are 80-year-old white men that have colonized our planet. Yeah. That control everything. Yeah. Yeah. Now, they think that they've built themselves bunkers. Yeah. Yeah. And other things. And they also… Some of them think they're going to migrate to Mars. Mars. Yes. Yeah. But the point is that… Sharing a brain here. Yeah. This is a really beautiful, vibrant, alive planet. There is no other planet that has the diversity of life that ours does. Yeah. Or the beauty. And we don't need to like think about how we're going to breathe in another land. Hmm. Which is outside our own. So, I think… I think I really would like to believe that if we all kind of got together and made our protests known in whatever way, it could be something as basic as… I don't know… Segregating waste at home. So, Professor Chetan Sulanki, he runs an organization called Energy Swaraj. And he's called the Solar Man of India. So, he built this solar bus and he took a sabbatical from work a few years ago. And he basically said, I commit to being on the road for 10 years. So, I will spend one decade on the road away from my wife, my children, my work. And I will travel the length and breadth of the country, raising awareness on Energy Swaraj. So, first, of course, is to bring people's attention to their patterns of consumption. How much electricity… How basically… He breaks it down beautifully, right? He says, okay, so what is the first thing that you do when you wake up in the morning? You brush your teeth. So, let's understand how much energy has been consumed for just that one activity, right? The water that runs through pipes. How were the pipes built? Right. How did they arrive where they are? The tap. How was the tap built? How did it arrive where it is? The wash basin. The mirror. So, he breaks something as mundane… As brushing your teeth into… As brushing your teeth into understanding how much energy has been consumed to facilitate that simple first exercise that you perform in the day.
[01:25:45] Speaker 3: I'm going to ask you to break down all of this when we come… I am not Professor Jaisabalanki. No, no. No, no. But as the angles are what you do in a day-to-day way. Okay. But let's close the loop on the systemic stuff that we're talking about in terms of…
[01:26:00] Dia Mirza: So, this is why I thought of him when you said about this. Because he was back at IIT recently and he posted this picture of professors and students using plastic bags.
[01:26:10] Aarti Kumar Rao: Hmm.
[01:26:11] Dia Mirza: Right? And then post pictures, faces, but just images. Right. And he said if this institution that is helping people understand how we need to innovate, build, consume, live, produce is not going to change something as fundamental as these habits, how are we going to bring about any change that is going to be change at scale? Right. I thought it was such a… such a pertinent and such a revealing question. Right. Because that is our problem. We are not understanding. Like, I see it, right? When I remember we were at one of the cops and I saw water packaged in plastic bottles everywhere. And I was like, we have the plastics treaty underway. Something that we are dealing with is one of the biggest pollution crisis in the history of mankind. Yep. You are… Every environmental organization is there.
[01:27:11] Speaker 3: And you are drinking water out of time. But even when you and I were there at a documentary that was released in cinemas and they were having a special screening and that distribution partner, it was about saving the planet without conserving water. And in every chair there was a single-use plastic bottle and they got up and called it out, which a lot of people may not have. Yeah. Because, you know, then you are again raising your voice. People might say, oh, yes, okay. The difficult one. Could have let it go. The difficult one. But then to consistently stand up and do that and say, this is… this is not okay. Yeah. And this is hypocritical.
[01:27:51] Aarti Kumar Rao: Also what's not okay is being called the difficult one. That would change that, really. I mean, this is… We are seeing what's happening already. We are the aliens. It's crazy. I mean, there's enough evidence to show that the microplastics are in you and affecting you and all of that. In your breast milk. Yes. They already have that proof. How can you still be so… that's why I say trying to wake up someone only pretending to be a snake. Yes.
[01:28:15] Speaker 3: That's all it is. Talk to me about the institutions.
[01:28:17] Aarti Kumar Rao: So, Dia was talking about how we all need to band together to protest against the 1% and their consumption patterns. And protest begins with choice. With choice. We have to also walk the talk ourselves. Yes. Yes, of course. However, I think it's a great… I mean, of course we need to do that. But I wish… I wish we had the institutions to be able to hold something legally binding. Yeah. You know, we don't have that.
[01:28:55] Dia Mirza: Right now, just the Supreme Court. In India… Right now, only the Supreme Court is doing that. I mean, recently has come under fire from the kind-hearted ones because they weren't so kind-hearted. No. And also the fact that some of these things… But a large part of wherever, like… wherever we've managed to stop… Yeah.
[01:29:15] Aarti Kumar Rao: NGT, something like that, right? Yeah. What is NGT? The National Green Tribunal.
[01:29:19] Dia Mirza: The National Green Tribunal. Set up to hear and pass rulings on cases that have, you know, environment under threat.
[01:29:30] Aarti Kumar Rao: However, they're also only limitedly effective because they will say certain things, but there's no… Follow-through. And there's no penalty. There's no accountability. Right. There's something… Somewhere, you know…
[01:29:42] Dia Mirza: Then it goes to the Supreme Court.
[01:29:43] Aarti Kumar Rao: Yeah. And if the Supreme Court is independent and strong, say in the US or wherever, right? Wherever you are in the world, if these… the judiciary is separate and strong, you know, from the executive and all of that, right? You have that independence in place. It's great. But now, I mean, if you're doing it across countries and you're trying to band together because there are the certain few who are "the problem", what international body has the teeth to be able to enforce something? I mean, we're seeing it in a genocide where… Yeah. So many people are screaming for change and "toothless".
[01:30:29] Dia Mirza: No, but even an international court that has been, you know, that has called the man a… Yeah.
[01:30:36] Aarti Kumar Rao: A war criminal.
[01:30:37] Dia Mirza: A war criminal is not able to, kind of…
[01:30:40] Aarti Kumar Rao: So, where are our institutions to be able to affect this kind of change? And even within India… That's actually been the biggest…
[01:30:45] Dia Mirza: For me, that's the most terrifying thing about the times that we live in. Yeah. Because… That, you know, everything that you counted on at some point… Right. Like, when you're growing up, you imagine that, you know, the government… Yeah. Or the courts… We'll take care of these things. Yeah. Or the media… Some of us… Yeah. There's intellectual honesty there, but… Now you feel like everything… Every institution at some level or the other feels compromised or controlled.
[01:31:13] Speaker 3: Because that is my question. I feel like environmental degradation has got to a point where I've been told it's already too late. And when you tell somebody it's already too late, it's very demotivating. And they feel like, then why do anything? Because it doesn't… If you look at that pie chart, no matter what I do individually in my home, it doesn't make any difference. What we need is for these people in the construction industry or in, you know, some… in real estate… To make those big changes for it to have an impact. Yeah. But again, like, and I refer to your book, if you start and if you look at your circle… And if you make some changes, keeping in mind the effect that it will have, and then hopefully that effect will multiply… I'd like to be optimistic… Yeah. …about the fact that we can correct some things. But you can correct me if I'm wrong. I want to start this little end part of this conversation by talking about motherhood. Because we are all mothers here. And I know that you've been passionate and you've been connected with the environment since before that, as have you been. I know that I have thought a lot more about the planet and about my heir after I became a parent. Hmm. So in terms of, for you, how do you talk to your child? How do you implement certain things? How do you take forward the knowledge that you got from your father, and you also Aarti? And how do you walk the walk at home? Because we know children don't learn by you saying, "Read this book. Here's Marginland. Read it." You know, they watch you, and they absorb. So after motherhood, how has that relationship evolved for you?
[01:32:57] Dia Mirza: I think you have a cellular shift, right, when you become a parent. Yes, and you become so awake and alive to every moment. At least for me, it's been like, wow. I don't think I've ever felt so alive. And so that kind of drives what I do. It inspires me to do much more than I possibly would have otherwise. I mean, I know that I was extremely committed, even before I had Avyan, because I've always felt maternal, and I've always cared, because all the children of the world are our children. And I've lived that. I've always felt it. I felt like your daughter is mine. Yeah. And so, which is why I guess I cared so much and wanted to become a part of a solution. But when Avyan came along, that feeling just became even more heightened. And I don't think we can teach children how to love and respect and care for nature unless we take them into nature. And it can be something as basic as planting host plants that attract butterflies and bees and sunbirds. And Avyan has the privilege of a balcony in front of his bedroom that has this really biodiverse space. And he wakes up to birdsong and he watches birds through the day. He watches butterflies. He watches bees. He identifies birds. He's been to more wildlife sanctuaries in the four years of his existence than most grown-ups I know have. Yeah. We regularly identify green, urban green spaces that we want to go and explore and discover. And I don't really teach him anything, Soha. What's the closest one to us? Nature does what she needs to do. What's the closest urban green space to us? Um, Bel Air. The garden in my building. Are you inviting everyone to your garden? Yes. And it's something as basic as that. And that garden is biodiverse because it's got old fruit bearing and native trees. And I have identified over 25 bird species in that garden. And Avyan has been watching birds there since he was three months old. And little things like he knows when he's washing his hands, he turns the tap off while he's soaping his hands. Or when he's brushing his teeth, the tap is off. Just a thing that I taught him to bring his awareness. I don't know whether he'll continue with it through life, but I thought gratitude is so integral to bringing our attention to consumption. And so, he, after every meal, he thanks the person who's cooked his meal. He thanks the farmer that grew his food. And he thanks Mama Earth. Now, I don't know whether he'll, I mean, he's four and he's cute and he started saying it when he was one and a half. Um, when he could articulate the words that I was telling him. But he says it on his, after every meal, he just closes his eyes and says, "Thank you, thank you, Mama."
[01:36:24] Speaker ?: And he'll go off.
[01:36:25] Dia Mirza: And he, it's not something that he just says, he understands it. He understands that the water he's bathing with, the water that he's drinking, the water that is being used to water his plants, comes from the earth. He knows that we assign more value to experiences over material gifts. Of course, he's an urban kid growing up in an urban, you know, society that is highly consumptive and wasteful. He attends birthday parties where enormous, ridiculous amounts of plastic is used. Um, I'll give you a sweet example. So, we went for a birthday party and there were these plastic balloons with like animal shapes. Uh, and so the host said, Avian, why don't you take some home because you, you know.
[01:37:15] Aarti Kumar Rao: I'm just thinking the person doesn't know you have to fall. Maybe with this punchline.
[01:37:20] Dia Mirza: Yeah. So the kid, this kid is two and a half. He just looks up and he says, "No, thank you. It's made of plastic." And it, it doesn't come from, um, I don't nag him.
[01:37:34] Speaker ?: Right.
[01:37:35] Dia Mirza: I'm not telling him these things every day, all the time. I think it comes from, A, treating him as an individual with intelligence and telling him things the way they are. And helping him understand why it's wrong or why it's good. And him making that choice for himself.
[01:37:54] Speaker ?: Yeah.
[01:37:55] Dia Mirza: And it's incredible when I see him. He, so, the doorbell rang the other day, the coconut, the Naryalwala had a replacement come in to, a substitute come in to, you know, deliver the Naryals and nothing burns my blood more than Naryalpaani arriving in plastic packets. Oh, you saw that? And plastic straws. Oh, that's crazy. So, this boy, Bichara, he didn't know who he was delivering to. So, he rang the doorbell and Avyan ran to the door, opened the door and it was the Naryalwala with the Naryals. So, he stands there with his hands on his hips and says, "Phaia, why did you take it in plastic? Why did you take it in our house? Why did you take it in our house? Why did you take it in our house? Why did you take it in our house? Why did you take it in our house? Why did you take it in our house? Why did you take it in our house?
[01:38:39] Speaker 3: Why did you take it in our house? Why did you take it in our house?
[01:38:41] Speaker ?: Why did you take it in our house?
[01:38:42] Speaker 3: Why did you take it in our house? Why did you take it in our house? Why did you take it in our house? Why did you take it in our house? Why did you take it in your house?
[01:38:47] Dia Mirza: Why did you take it in your house?
[01:38:48] Speaker 3: Why did you take it in your house?
[01:38:49] Dia Mirza: Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house?
[01:39:04] Speaker 3: Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house?
[01:39:16] Dia Mirza: Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house?
[01:39:46] Speaker 3: Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house?
[01:40:00] Dia Mirza: Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house?
[01:41:51] Speaker 3: Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house?
[01:41:56] Aarti Kumar Rao: Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house?
[01:42:00] Dia Mirza: Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house?
[01:42:16] Aarti Kumar Rao: Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house?
[01:43:06] Dia Mirza: Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house?
[01:43:24] Aarti Kumar Rao: Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house?
[01:43:28] Dia Mirza: Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house?
[01:43:33] Aarti Kumar Rao: Why did you take it in your house?
[01:43:34] Speaker 3: Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house?
[01:43:46] Aarti Kumar Rao: Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? Why did you take it in your house? An individual can only do so much. It has to become something that is the norm. Some of it, most of it…
[01:44:23] Dia Mirza: You know what? I think the one action that everyone can take is to connect with nature. Absolutely. Spend time in nature every day.
[01:44:30] Aarti Kumar Rao: Walk more but also never lose your sense of wonder. You know, we all want to go and see a tiger or a leopard, but just go for a safari in your building, in your garden, in your house. You might see a spider catching a fly. You know, and that's interesting too. Yes. So don't lose your sense of wonder. Yeah. You know, that's so important. So don't grow up, you know.
[01:44:52] Speaker 3: As we come to the end of this, I just wanted to highlight, we've spoken about it, but if you can just underline and highlight, because some people don't… I don't know, three people might watch this whole conversation. So they tend to hold on to a few things. So what is the danger of excluding women's voices when it comes to biodiversity, when it comes to the environment? Catastrophe. Look around you. Exactly what we're experiencing.
[01:45:19] Aarti Kumar Rao: Look around you. This is what has happened when we've excluded voices. Yeah. And not just women. Indigenous people. Yeah. People who are fishermen. People who have lived with… They know how the fish behave in the water. Yeah. We're losing that, right? Because we've excluded that voice. The farmer who knows which area will grow what crop well. Yeah. This… This… This… You know, whatever, right? Because of microclimates and stuff. Don't let's exclude those voices. Because of that, we've become like this monolith, monoculture. Yeah. And it does… One size never fits all.
[01:45:58] Dia Mirza: Because of the industrialization of all these sectors. Yeah.
[01:46:02] Speaker 3: Because you spoke about this and these disappearing ways. The disappearing language. The disappearing dialect. Because you've got a beautiful glossary in this book. And you've said, for example, that some of the shepherds in the deserts have… Forty… More than… Forty names for clouds. Yeah. Yes. More names for the forty… More names for clouds than there are cloudy days. Exactly. So, if there are forty days… Forty cloudy days in the year… They still have more names… Yeah. For clouds… Than Inuits do for snow.
[01:46:30] Aarti Kumar Rao: Snow. Exactly. And they're surrounded by snow every day, right?
[01:46:33] Speaker 3: And the value of that dialect. Yeah.
[01:46:35] Aarti Kumar Rao: Speak briefly. I was sitting and having chai with a shepherd. When I looked up and I said, "Aaj baarish honne wala hai." And he said, "Nai. Ismai sit baarish nai hoga." He was able to recognize which cloud, what, where, when, how… To me, it looked like a grey cloud and it was going to rain. He said, "No." Until it becomes that size and that thick. So, they know how to read the land. And he says, "Yeh bhasha nahi bhavishya ka drishya hai." So, it's like… It's like… It's… It's a… Manifestation of the land for them. It's not just language. Yeah. And when you have that language, when you know how X is different from Y or what Y does, it's place in the world, you know to protect it. Yeah. When you lose that name, it's gone. Yeah. So, it's so important to preserve language that describes landscapes, that describes how things are in order to respect, in order to protect, in order to revere.
[01:47:35] Speaker 3: Hmm. Which brings me to a sort of parting question, which is, if a young girl is watching this podcast, and I hope she is, what is one thing that she could do, a place to begin, if she wants to be part of the solution? I'll ask you Dia first, and then I can come to you. Yeah, yeah. Is there something that she should read? Is there something that she can do, so that she feels part of the solution?
[01:47:56] Dia Mirza: She can begin at home. Yeah. By the active choices that she makes. Yeah. That are informed by the wisdom of inspiring leaders. She can also read about Vangari Mathai, read about Vandana Shiva, read about Aarti Kumar.
[01:48:15] Aarti Kumar Rao: Right.
[01:48:16] Dia Mirza: She can spend time working in spaces that are trying to combat pollution. So that could be blogging, it could be working at a local community or center that is, you know, stitching cloth bags. Recognize that every conscious choice you make for yourself has an impact on the earth. And let that understanding inform your choices. Final words to you, Aarti.
[01:48:56] Aarti Kumar Rao: Final words to me. Okay. I would say to any young girl, to put on a pair of walking shoes, pick up a little notebook and go for a walk. Write down everything that catches your fancy. Rinse, repeat. Yeah. Do that every day because the power of observation, of paying attention to your world is the first step in learning to respect it.
[01:49:25] Speaker 3: Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I know how much value I've got from this conversation. I felt like I had an understanding of how precious our environment is. I do a little bit, but not enough, but really want to have more and more conversations like this. I still feel that people are not connected. People feel it's too obtuse, that it's too inconvenient, that it's somebody else's problem. It'll happen much later in life. It doesn't affect them. And I really am grateful for people like you who don't have to do this, who believe in it and who do this and live it day in and day out. So thank you very much for coming here, for sharing some of your wisdom. Thank you for having this conversation. Thank you for having us.
[01:50:08] Aarti Kumar Rao: Thanks. And thank you for bringing this into the spotlight, Soha. It's really important. Thank you. It's important that people like you shine this light.
[01:50:17] Dia Mirza: This conversation doesn't really fit into the regular scheme of things. Right. And the fact that you thought of having it, the fact that you invited the two of us and the fact that we spent this rich two hours together. Yeah. It's so, so, so much. So thank you.
[01:50:35] Speaker 3: I think this has been really an enriching conversation for me. And what struck home the most was that actually ecofeminism is not just about man versus woman. It's about nurturing the feminine in you and bringing that to the fore when it comes to your relationship with the planet. And men can do that just as well as women. Through, I think, Dia's personal journey and Aarti's powerful insights, we've understood that climate action, it's not about policy. It's not about protest. It is about those things, but it's not just about those things. It's also about choices. The daily choices, community care and honoring the wisdom of women who have been protectors of our planet long before ecofeminism even had a name. So thank you very much, Dia. Thank you, Aarti, for just being on the podcast with us today and for sharing, I think, wisdom that we all need to hear. And until next time, stay informed, stay healthy, and we'll see you in the next episode.