Melinda Bouma Interview with Exclusive TCR News

[0:00] Hey everyone, this is Randy from BibleBuyingGuide.com and I'm talking today with Melinda [0:05] Bauma from Zondervan and she headed up kind of an important project and so I want to talk to [0:12] Melinda about that today. Melinda, can you introduce yourself and tell our audience what [0:16] we're talking about? Yes, I'd be delighted to. So, hi Randy. Everyone, I'm Melinda and I'm the [0:23] publisher for Zondervan Bibles, as Randy said, and that is just a fancy way of saying I get to work [0:28] with making new Bibles and bringing fresh life into older Bibles all day long every day and I [0:35] love it. So, one of the projects that I've gotten to be a small part of with an amazing team of [0:41] specialists is bringing the Thompson Chain Reference Bible kind of into a revised edition for the 21st [0:48] century. So, that beloved TCR is what we're going to talk about today. This guy right here. Yes, [0:54] I'm so excited. I have questions on cards because, you know, memory and stuff and this helps me keep [1:01] them in order. So, I'm going to go ahead and just ask my questions in order. Okay. Okay. Can you step [1:05] us through the process of updating the TCR? Sure, I'll do my best and Randy, I also have some notes for [1:12] myself because memory. So, I want to make sure I don't miss any of this, especially because the [1:17] process was pretty intricate because we felt such a responsibility to steward it well. So, yeah. So, [1:26] first I'll just preface the whole thing with saying if you really want more behind the scenes details of [1:31] step-by-step how we did this, there are blog posts that I know you helped contribute to that are on the [1:37] ThompsonChainReferenceBible.com website. So, I'll do my best today to give some detail, but that's a great [1:42] place to go to learn more. Yeah, the process of this was, as I kind of indicated, we, we want to [1:50] preserve as much as we can about what people love about the ThompsonChain. And so, it felt imperative [1:56] that we learn what the ThompsonChainReference system is, how it works, how it has served readers [2:03] over the years. I'm delighted because the editor on my team who worked on this has grown up using and [2:10] loving the ThompsonChain. So, for him, this was a personal dream come true. And he also is very [2:15] familiar with how the system works. But we wanted to do a lot of listening and a lot of question asking, [2:21] and we did some polls in the ThompsonChain Facebook group, just to learn from people who've loved this [2:27] for years and say, what, what would you want improved? If anything, what do you want us to make sure, [2:33] you know, doesn't go away? How do we really honor this legacy of five generations who've used the [2:39] ThompsonChain and their personal study, preaching, you know, preparation. And so, we, we looked through [2:47] the, the marginal reference system. First, we made sure that was complete and comprehensive because [2:53] over the years, as new additions came out, new marginal references were added. And so, we wanted to [2:59] make sure we had a complete system and that it was digitized. That was a big part of the puzzle for us. [3:05] We reviewed the back matter. And we looked at the illustrations and the maps and said, there's a lot here we [3:11] want to keep. But we wanted to maybe update those. So, those were actually all new hand drawn. We commissioned [3:18] brand new maps, new illustrations. That was really exciting. We had the Herculean task of deciding what content [3:27] remained and if there was anything to cut. And I say that because one of the polls that we did, we asked [3:34] readers, what do you love about the ThompsonChain? And what would you say is your favorite content or [3:40] really most helpful content? And we heard clearly, Randy, from people, please give me more readability, [3:47] like increase the font size, make, you know, use better paper, more opaque fonts, but also try to keep it as [3:54] portable and slim as possible. And it can be hard to make a print size larger and save on pages. [4:02] And we've talked about this offline before, just how every Bible we make has its own ambition. Like, [4:10] what is the goal of this Bible? And so, every Bible, you're making decisions that are in some ways [4:16] trade-offs from each other because if this Bible's goal is to be super readable, then it might be a bigger [4:21] Bible. If this Bible's goal is to fit in your pocket, it might be a smaller font. So in this case, we just [4:26] tried to determine from listening to our readers, what do they want? And so the process of that was [4:32] listening, updating where we could, and then a very stringent review on that back matter. So you've seen [4:39] a new copy, you know this, but for listeners to know, one thing we did, it's the only change we made [4:45] kind of into the text area is at the back of the Bible, where it used to have those condensed kind [4:51] of book overviews. We did hear from readers, those could be really helpful next to that book of the [4:56] Bible. So the Thompson chain now has a very clinical overview, it fits very well with the kind of [5:04] personality of the Thompson chain. But there's a brief book intro for every book of the Bible. The rest [5:09] of the back matter was either updated, revised, redrawn, except for a few smaller elements that [5:16] were removed. But the big one, the big process piece we went through was to determine what to do [5:22] with the archaeological supplement. So that's one of those pieces, it's always hard to make a decision [5:28] where you're going to remove something. But our readers told us, if it meant getting them a larger [5:33] print size, that would be the one element they would sacrifice. And we agreed with that, because [5:40] you can get archaeological information about the Bible through other sources through commentaries, [5:46] we have other Bibles that do that. And honestly, Randy, it would have taken a really long time to [5:51] get that updated. And we just knew readers did not want to wait years and years to get an updated, [5:57] easier to read edition of the Thompson chain. So I'm really pleased with where we landed out of that [6:03] process. But I would say that's, that's, you know, kind of a high level view of the process. And I [6:09] think we achieved the goals that we set out to in fact, the new Thompson chain, the first ones in the [6:15] NIV, that regular size, it's in comfort print. And that regular size print size is what the large print [6:23] has been in the past. So we were able to really improve that significantly. [6:27] It is very readable. I'll attest to that. Number two, what were some of the challenges with the [6:36] update? Okay, where to begin? Well, some of the challenges are what I already shared, which was [6:42] just feeling that I think appropriate pressure and responsibility for updating such a legacy. I mean, [6:48] this is not just a Bible. This is a Bible that's been used for 100 years. And it's an incredible Bible. [6:54] So one of the challenges was to make sure we took the time to make those decisions. We didn't want [7:00] to rush it. I didn't want to make a decision just for decision sake. You know, we wanted to Emily [7:06] Tobin, who many of you watching this might know from Facebook, because she posts a lot in the groups. [7:12] She's been doing a great job at being transparent with our decisions and timing as much as we can, [7:17] you know, share. We she did a poll, we wanted to really listen. But the challenge of that then is [7:25] like, okay, making those decisions. And so that was a big one. One challenge was the time that it takes. [7:33] We had to digitize files, we had to complete the chains, we had to have commission new maps and [7:39] illustrations. That was a challenge. All of that is not cheap. But we didn't want to hold back, we wanted to, [7:46] you know, spend the time and money that was needed to make this a great resource. Continue it, I [7:50] shouldn't say make it, it's a great resource, make it more readable, and just bring it, you know, more [7:55] up to date. And yeah, I think I've already hinted at this. But probably the biggest challenge I felt was [8:01] just that pressure of like, taking this on, and really wanting to honor the work that's come before, [8:09] while setting this Bible up for another 100 years and helping new readers come into the Thompson chain [8:14] family. Now, you mentioned completing the chains, can you describe what you're talking about? [8:21] Yeah, I'll do my best. So the chains are, they're made, some of them work across all translations, [8:29] and then some are translation specific. And so sometimes what would happen is over the years, [8:34] when these were brought into new translations, you know, the chains were reviewed by a human being, [8:40] by you or me, you know, kind of everyday person who can make mistakes and miss something. And so the [8:45] chains were not always like each topic may not have necessarily been completed in its trace [8:51] throughout the scripture. And that was revealed over time through different editions, but then also [8:57] using some specialists in kind of data review, they were able to go through the text and just make sure [9:04] that if this subject, if you're looking up redemption, or the redeemed, like, does that really include [9:11] every single possible reference? And does it include it in a way that it works through every [9:15] translation, but then every Bible translation might have different language that's used based [9:20] from its just translation process. And we wanted to make sure then that that chain was always completed [9:27] based on that text. So that's a huge challenge to make sure we complete them, that they're comprehensive, [9:33] and that we, you know, just bring them up to date from the work that had been started, you know, years ago. [9:38] Plus, there used to be things in the back that were not in the margins, and then there would be [9:43] things not in the margins or in the margins that were not in the back. Yes, they've been completed now, [9:48] correct? They have. So we reviewed the indexes, the numerical and alphabetical against those marginal [9:54] chains and vice versa. So if anything was missing from one to the other, they are now in there and complete. [9:59] So yes, I think that would be we feel like we've completed that those chains and just made sure that [10:06] the handwork that was done by faithful individuals, we had this extra element to kind of back check and [10:11] review that. Excellent. Yeah, that alone, that alone took all your time. I don't know how you [10:19] did that. Next one. Why did you begin the updates with the NIV? Oh, yes. Okay, great question. The [10:27] Thompson chain has been and currently is still available in King James, New King [10:32] James, the NASB 77 text and the ESV. And the one addition that had been around for a while, [10:39] but then has been out of print for a while is the NIV. And I think that's, it's likely when the [10:45] copyright like when the newest text was launched in 2011, the Thompson chain just was not updated to [10:50] the 2011 NIV. And we've heard so many requests from people over the years that they wish that the [10:57] Thompson chain was in the NIV. So we felt like, well, the others are still available, [11:02] but this one's not available at all. So we started with the NIV so that our readers can have that [11:06] option. Excellent. Okay. Can you tell us anything about the other translations that you have planned [11:14] and their possible release schedules? And then I'm going to go ahead and mention that the ones that [11:18] I get asked the most are the, the NASB 95 and 2020, which will you choose or will you choose both? [11:27] And then also I get a lot of questions about the NIV 84 versus 2011. Okay. Can you talk about those? [11:34] I'll do my best. So the short answer is that I'm not going to be able to reveal a ton of information [11:40] that's not yet been shared. And here's, here's why. Candidly, each one of these, it's not as simple as [11:46] just retype setting the Bible text and, you know, the marginal references will automatically just [11:51] work. Each one has a lot of specialized work that goes into it, or here's a little known fact, [11:57] the maps, we make sure that the spellings of the locations on the maps match the spellings of those [12:03] locations within that translations text. So there's a lot of nuance. So for that reason, I just said, [12:11] our team, we've decided we're not going to announce anything before we know it's set and ready to go. [12:17] Because this has taken the team a lot of time. And so we've announced the NIVs that come out here [12:22] shortly. The King James comes out this October. And then in a few weeks, Emily will be announcing [12:27] the next edition. So I can't yet tell you what that is. As for the NASB, we do hear that same [12:34] question about will you do the 95 text or the 2020 or both? What I can say is, for that one, [12:42] people just please keep sharing what you'd like. You know, we're doing our best to listen to our [12:47] readers. So we don't actually have an announcement on that yet. The NIV, I've seen that question too, [12:55] in the Facebook groups. So the 1984 NIV is not viable to be published. So it won't be available [13:02] in the 84 NIV. But it will be available in the 2011. And that's because the copyright edition of the [13:07] 2011 is the only NIV in print. And so that's kind of the charter of the translation committee is that [13:14] the NIV there, it's always representing their most up to date scholarship and work. And so that's the [13:20] the only NIV that's available to be published. Okay, I did have a few people ask about the 77 NASB. [13:27] Oh, sure. Okay, so I'm glad I'm glad to have a chance to actually share this because I don't [13:32] think we've shared this anywhere yet publicly. The NASB 77 is what's used in the current Thompson chain. [13:40] And so what we're going to do is that the new comfort print edition will not be the 77. [13:45] What we're going to do, though, is keep at least one edition of the 77 available in print [13:51] for so long as people, you know, want it and purchase it. So that's what's nice is we have [13:55] that option. It won't be the fully, you know, revised edition. But for people who love the 77, [14:01] they'll be able to get that one for a while to come. Okay, so the current 77 with the Kirkbride text, [14:08] that will always be available as long as long as it's people want it. Yep, exactly. Yeah. Okay, [14:15] next one. Will there be any differences in the other translations? And you already touched on this [14:20] about the maps and a few others, but I know there's a little bit more. So can you get into [14:26] some details there? Sure. And it might be helpful for me to more start with what will be the same. So [14:31] here's, here's our goal, the Thompson chain, a lot of it will be the same in the sense of the current [14:37] kind of layout, the print sizes. So you won't get like a regular size NIV. That's nine and a half print [14:44] size. And then the KJVB nine, they're all going to be the same standard across the three sizes. [14:50] Each translation will be available in all three sizes, large print, regular size, handy size. [14:56] Each translation will have a premier collection edition planned for the regular size at this point. [15:03] Each one will have the same set of back matter, if you will, each one will have book intros, [15:09] but the marginal references, and thus the indexes are built in a way where about 90% of the content [15:19] in there of the different references matches or works across all translations, but bears up to 10% [15:26] per Bible. That's really specific to that translation. So, you know, you're going to find [15:31] differences in the marginal references and indexes. If you're using multiple editions, you'll see those. [15:38] Also, the spellings on the maps, like I noted. And then each one for the translations that we, [15:44] you know, steward and publish here, they have their own comfort print typeface. And so, Randy, [15:49] when you see the King James and the NIV, for instance, you would know right away, these are [15:54] related. These feel like brother and sister or, you know, but they're not going to feel like identical [15:59] twins because the comfort print typeface really does bring out a different personality for that [16:05] translation. And so, that's one of my favorite parts of it is things can definitely be part of [16:10] the same family, but then unique for that translation and for that translation's readers, [16:14] what they'll, you know, most enjoy and appreciate, so. Excellent. Okay. So, Leni, going forward from here [16:21] though, we have every translation will have all three sizes, handy size, regular size, large print, [16:27] premier collection, and a premier collection. Do you have the premier collection in mind for large print [16:32] or, or handy size? Oh, great question. Not yet in mind, like as a standard, but again, [16:40] I've seen people requesting that. I think I've seen the most comments on a large print [16:45] premier collection. So, I would just encourage, you know, anyone watching this today and anyone else [16:50] who comes across this in the future, talk about that online or, you know, show in your comments that [16:57] that's what you would love. So, if people tell us what they're looking for, we really do our best [17:01] to say, hey, we're missing something here if there, if enough people want it. So, [17:05] yeah, I would encourage you to just let us know what you're looking for. Excellent. I like it when [17:10] publishers listen. Yeah, I think many, I think many do. Yeah, they do. One more, red letter versus [17:18] black letter. So, the premier collection is black letter. All other editions are red letter. Do you have [17:24] any plans to do those in the other? No, we don't actually at this time. So, again, that would be [17:31] something if we hear enough about, you know, then people could let us know what they're looking for, [17:35] and we'll see what we can do. Excellent. And then last one. Okay. Where can our viewers learn more [17:40] about the TCR? Oh, yes. Okay. Two great places. Well, three counting this today. Obviously, you do a [17:48] great job of talking about this and, you know, reviewing and sharing what you know. You've also done [17:53] for us, people might not know this, but we did an exciting video series that can be found on the Zondervan [17:58] YouTube channel, where Randy just does a wonderful job walking through kind of who can benefit how [18:04] each different kind of use might play out. Like if you're a pastor, how would you use the Thompson [18:09] chain? If you're an everyday person like me, how might this be beneficial? And those are wonderful. [18:14] So, I would encourage people to go there to the Zondervan YouTube and check those out. [18:18] And then the other main place would be ThompsonChainReferenceBible.com. [18:23] And there you'll find a newsletter sign up you can, you know, submit for and get updates from [18:29] our team of what's going on with Thompson chain and new additions. Also, there's this incredible [18:35] set of blog posts there. And Randy's actually written some of those I know some of our, [18:40] our in house editor who worked on this update did a couple of those. But, you know, we get really [18:45] technical and really fun. I'm a big Bible nerd. So I think these are fun. But we talk about things like [18:51] the density of the ink and how we measure that for excellence. And we have pages that show [18:59] the actual process of how this was composed in our typesetting phase and just some really great [19:04] behind the scenes stuff of how we put this together. So yeah, you can learn more there about [19:08] what's available, how it came together. So yeah, Zondervan YouTube or ThompsonChainReferenceBible.com. [19:14] My favorite article is the one about the ink. That one wasn't mine. [19:18] That was impressive. I enjoyed that. I didn't know about that. And welcome. So I guess we're [19:24] at the end of our questions. I appreciate the work you've done on this. I know the Thompson [19:29] well, and I've used it for 44 years. And it's not an easy Bible to update. And it's been updated a few [19:41] times throughout the hundred plus years that it's been available. It's not something that you're, [19:46] you're just going to, you know, let's just update it. It's not that, you know, this, [19:51] this took about a year, two years, something along that line to make it, to make it what it is now. [19:57] That's an impressive, an impressive project. So I appreciate the work that you've done on that. [20:02] And I'm sure that when the NIV is finally available, that everyone else will also appreciate it. When will [20:10] this be available? Yes, it started shipping. So I think people would start receiving copies, [20:16] or if you go into a store, you would see it. Both of those should happen in the next one to two weeks. [20:20] So we're, we're days away. It's very exciting. I can't wait for everyone to see it. Me neither. [20:27] I hope people love it. And, you know, I just, I also can't wait to read the feedback. So again, [20:32] like that's how we get better and keep learning what our readers will value. And so I'm really excited [20:37] about that. Nice. So do you have any parting thoughts for our viewers? No, I mean, just [20:42] gratitude that, you know, people continue to support our work and that what we do continues to support [20:48] the ministry of everyone who watches. So that feels just really special. We love making Bibles that [20:54] people can read and use however they need and whatever obstacles someone might have to really [20:59] getting into God's word. We try to do whatever we can to remove them through paper and fonts and all of [21:05] that. So just a big thank you to everyone and a big thank you to everyone, including yourself, [21:10] for the reviews and the feedback that just helps us, like I said, really know how to serve people [21:15] well. So really excited about the future. Thanks. I will place links in the notes for all the resources [21:22] that you've mentioned. And I guess that's it. I appreciate your time today. Thank you very much. [21:28] Good to see you, Randy.