'May ginawa ba ang bise na inciting to sedition?': Bong Go asks Lotoc, who says 'yes'

[0:00] Sir, balik muna tayo dito sa ating bayan. Masada lang malayo, inaabot natin. [0:06] To our Mr. Witness, some questions lang po, no? [0:10] Yes po, Your Honor. [0:12] Nabanggit niyo kahapon na 20 years na po kayo sa NBI? [0:15] 12 years, Your Honor. [0:18] Be specific, anong year po? [0:20] 2014, Your Honor. Nagsimula po ako from the NBI Academy. [0:24] 2014? [0:25] 2014. 12 years na po, Your Honor. [0:27] Ah, hindi 20 years. [0:28] Hindi 20 years, Your Honor. [0:29] 12, Your Honor. [0:31] 12 years. [0:33] So, kailan ho kayo nag-head ng cybercrime? [0:39] February 2023, Your Honor. [0:44] February of 2023. [0:47] Maupay na Adlao pala? [0:49] Maupay po ang Adlao, yapon, sir. [0:52] To our prosecutor? [0:55] May hapon, sir. May hapon. [0:57] Maupay na kulop? [0:59] Maupay man. [1:02] Kailan ho kayo naging RD? [1:05] Um, July 2025, sir. [1:09] July 2025. [1:10] So, naging cybercrime head kayo February of 2023? [1:15] Three, sir. [1:16] Before that, sa ano kayo na-assign? [1:18] Ah, chief ng digital forensics, sir. [1:21] 2022. [1:22] 2022. [1:25] So, meron mo bang nag-recommend sa inyo? [1:28] O wala na? [1:29] Nag-apply lang kayo? [1:30] O sino nag-lag... [1:31] Nang ano po, sir? [1:33] Naging head kayo ng cybercrime? [1:36] Um, as chief of the digital forensics, I was designated by the then director, Medardo J. Delemos. [1:46] Then, as chief of the cybercrime division, I was also designated by the then director, Medardo J. Delemos, sir. [1:55] So, 2016 to 2022, sa ano kayo na-assign? [1:58] Um, 2016, I think, Anti-Organized Crime and Transnational Crime. [2:04] Up to 2020? [2:05] AOTCD yun, you're honored. [2:07] Then, 2018, nasa cybercrime division na po ako. [2:11] So, hindi po kayo head doon? [2:13] Hindi pa. As investigation agent po, noong 2018, sir. [2:16] Anyway, nabanggit niyo po kanina about sworn affidavit. [2:20] And then, nabanggit niyo about journalists, no? Na part nung press conference. Tama ho ba? [2:28] Yes, sir. [2:28] Marami sila, di ba? Marami nabanggit sa mga karang araw, including last week, di ba? [2:34] Bakit ho ba, ba't hindi niyo kinuha yung... [2:39] Bakit po hindi kinuha ang sariling sworn affidavit ng mga journalists na personal na naroon po sa press conference? [2:46] Sa halip ay affidavits po ng agents na naglalaman po ng inyong summary ng mga sinabi po ninyo. [2:52] Bakit hindi niyo pinursige yung mga affidavits na mga nando doon sa... [2:57] Yes, Your Honor. Nung nag-appear po yung mga media personalities na nag-participate nung online press conference at the November 23, 2024, [3:07] may kasama ho silang lawyer, and then we want them to execute an affidavit, [3:12] ang advice sa kanila ng lawyer, hindi na raw, pwede lang sila mag-participate ng interview, [3:19] pwede sila mag-sign sa binin sa meeting. So hindi na po namin pinilit. [3:23] So wala hong journalists or mga vloggers na kasama po doon sa sworn affidavit? Wala ho. [3:33] Sa inyo lang, purely puro po ito sa... [3:37] NBI. [3:38] Magaling sa NBI lang po. [3:39] Yes, sir. Kasi ayaw po ng lawyer nila na mag-execute sila ng affidavit. [3:45] Pero may kasama po silang lawyer doon, sir. [3:47] Yung mga detalye pong nakasaad sa inyong affidavit tungkol sa naganap na press conference, [3:51] galing ho ba ito sa personal knowledge ng mga agents o batay po sa sinabi ng mga journalists [3:56] na nakausap po ng agents pagkatapos? [4:00] Yes, Your Honor. Q&A yung mode nung interview. [4:05] At nag-reflect ho yan doon sa minutes of meeting. [4:09] And then nag-execute ng affidavit yung nag-interview ng agent. [4:15] So magkasama ho yung mga dokumento na yun, sir. [4:17] Mako-consider mo ba ito na second-hand account? [4:21] Paano nyo masigurong naging actual ho yung pag-interpret ninyo sa mga sinabi? [4:30] Ano pong interpret, sir? [4:32] I mean, kung batay po ito sa second-hand account, paano nyo masisiguro na sakto, walang na idagdag, [4:39] o hindi na misinterpret sa pagitan ng aktual na sinabi ng mga journalists at mga nakasulat sa inyong affidavit? [4:45] Yes, Your Honor. That's the reason why inauthenticate namin yung video mula-simula hanggang sa matapos [4:53] para o hindi kami mawala sa tunay na nangyari. [4:58] That's the reason why it re-unscribe din ang ating agent on case kung ano laman ng video, [5:03] kung ano yung naging tanungan doon, para o hindi kami mawala sa investigasyon namin. [5:09] And in fact, Your Honor, when we tried to establish whether or not nag-atter ba talaga ang vice-presidente [5:17] na may kinausap na siyang tao para pumatay sa tatlo, na confirmed namin ito noong November 26 video [5:25] kasi ni-reterate ng vice-presidente, in-admit niya, instead na sinabi niyang hindi ko sinabi yun, [5:32] sinabi niya noong November 26 na video na indeed may kinausap na siyang tao para pumatay doon sa tatlo. [5:38] So, nabuo yung aming investigation na ang tawag po namin doon is admission against interest [5:50] doon po sa ginawa ni vice-president during the November 26, 2024, sir. [5:59] Anyway, last question na lang po on si Disho. [6:01] How do you reconcile the fact that the vice-president discouraged her supporters [6:07] from going to the streets with a claim of inciting to sedition? [6:12] Ano po yung, sorry, sir? [6:14] On sedition charges, Diva. [6:15] Yes, sir. [6:16] How do you reconcile the fact that the vice-president discouraged her supporters [6:20] from going to the streets with a claim of inciting to sedition? [6:25] Well, in inciting to sedition, Your Honor, specifically in the case of people versus nabong, [6:32] it is not necessary na magkaroon ng actual sedition. [6:36] The law also penalizes if the seditious words would encourage people to do illegal acts [6:44] or to overthrow government. [6:46] In other words, if the speeches would stir up the people to go against the government, [6:50] if the speeches would disturb the peace of the community, [6:54] if the speeches would undermine order and public security, [6:58] hindi ho nasasari na magkaroon ng actual na sedition. [7:01] That's under... [7:02] Meron ho bang nagawa yung vice-presidente na... [7:06] yung gaya ng sinasabi niyo ngayon? [7:11] Nagawa pong inciting to sedition, sir? [7:14] Magkawo. [7:15] Based sa findings namin, sir, yes. [7:17] Based po sa findings namin. [7:20] Ganito po ang nangyari. [7:21] Anyway, kinumpere po namin based on the content and context of the utterances made by the vice-president [7:28] in November 23, 2024, the utterances made by the vice-president in October 18, 2024, [7:36] then the utterances made by the vice-president in 26, November 2024, [7:41] and under facts and circumstances, nung Trinay po namin ikumpere siya, [7:46] may nakita ko kami ng mga utterances that would stir up the people. [7:52] Against the government. [7:53] For example, Your Honor, [7:55] noong October 18, ang sabi ng vice-presidente, [7:58] walang number one ang Pilipinas na to hanggang number two lang to para sa akin. [8:02] Wala itong number one. [8:04] Kinumparaho namin noong November 23, [8:06] ang sabi doon sa November 23, [8:08] I do not recognize anybody above me. [8:11] It's a reiteration doon sa kanyang sinabi. [8:14] That's number one, Your Honor. [8:16] Then number two, [8:16] may sinabi siya noong October 18, [8:19] na anong magagawa ko, [8:23] hindi marunong maging presidente yung nakaupo, [8:25] kasalanan ko ba yun? [8:27] And then, November 23, [8:29] kinumpara namin yun, [8:30] ang sabi niya doon, [8:31] this country will go to hell [8:33] because the person na nakaupo [8:36] is hindi marunong maging presidente [8:37] and who is a liar. [8:39] So nakita namin yung pattern [8:40] at consistent na utterances. [8:42] Then tinira namin yung pangatlong line, [8:43] ang sabi niya doon, [8:44] alam ko si BBM may limang impeachable offense, [8:48] pero papasa ba dyan sa house? [8:50] Siyempre hindi. [8:51] Then pagdating sa November 23, [8:53] sinabi naman niya doon na [8:54] the president is lying through his teeth [8:57] para makuha lang niya yung bota ng mga tao, [9:00] tapos minura niya sila, [9:01] P.I. Ka, BBM, Lisa Marcos, [9:04] and former speaker of the house. [9:08] So tinignan namin, [9:09] sino ba yung nagsasalita? [9:10] Kung ang nagsasalita, [9:12] Your Honor is yung ikalawa [9:14] sa pinakamataas na posisyon [9:16] in public, [9:17] at yun yung kanyang utterances, [9:19] definitely, Your Honor, [9:21] there is a tendency [9:23] to stir up the people [9:24] against lawful government. [9:27] Kindly wind up, Senator Goh. [9:30] No more questions, [9:31] Mr. President. [9:32] Thank you, Senator Judge Goh. [9:34] Senator Judge Padilla [9:36] intimated to the presiding officer [9:38] that he will defer [9:39] his questions to a later time. [9:42] Counsel for the respondent, [9:44] you may proceed [9:45] with your cross-examination. [9:47] Just a manifestation, [9:49] Your Honor, [9:49] in relation to the query [9:52] or the manifestation [9:53] of Senator Judge Villanueva. [9:55] In relation to the query [9:57] of Senator... [9:57] No, no, [9:58] his manifestation, [9:59] Your Honor. [10:01] No need, Counsel. [10:02] Proceed, [10:02] unless he asked you a question [10:04] to save in the court's time. [10:06] Please proceed [10:07] with your cross-examination. [10:08] All right. [10:09] I'll just transform it [10:10] into a question. [10:11] You were asked about [10:11] that December 2, 2024 letter, [10:14] correct? [10:14] December 2, yes, sir. [10:16] That is the letter [10:18] where you gave a schedule [10:19] for the Vice President [10:20] to attend, correct? [10:23] Yeah, signed by [10:24] our Assistant Director. [10:24] The schedule that you gave [10:26] was November 11, 2024 [10:28] at 10 a.m. [10:29] and then you gave the address. [10:32] So in other words... [10:32] My question naman is this, [10:36] if tama yung schedule [10:39] sana at nakapunta si PP Sara, [10:42] would it have affected [10:43] your investigation? [10:44] Your Honor, [10:45] even up till now, [10:47] ready ho kaming tanggapin [10:49] kung anumang information [10:50] na threat against [10:52] the life of the Vice President. [10:53] Continuous po yun. [10:56] In fact, [10:56] sabi ko nga kanina, [10:57] yung intelligence service namin [10:59] is may ginagawang monitoring [11:00] from time to time [11:01] dun sa threat [11:02] to life against [11:03] the Vice President, [11:05] President, etc. [11:06] Okay, I'll move on [11:06] to a new point. [11:07] Now, let me show you [11:09] a portion of the interview [11:10] of Dempsey Reyes [11:11] of the Philippine Daily Inquirer. [11:14] Please direct your attention [11:15] to paragraph 13 [11:16] of the minutes of the meeting. [11:18] This is also [11:18] the transcription [11:21] made by Agent Calilong. [11:23] Page 173 [11:24] of Annex G9 as well. [11:27] So, here, [11:33] it says, [11:34] may press con kasi [11:35] earlier than that, [11:36] sabi niya na parang [11:37] sabi niya lang, [11:38] gusto daw siyang patayin daw [11:39] according to her, [11:41] ni Speaker. [11:42] That was during [11:43] a press conference [11:44] the day before, [11:45] November 2022. [11:47] So, [11:48] being, [11:49] considering that [11:49] this is part of [11:50] the minutes of the meetings, [11:51] this is also part [11:52] of the NBI's own records, [11:54] correct? [11:55] Yes, sir. [11:55] Alright. [11:56] Now, my question is this, [11:57] did you issue a subpina [11:59] against Speaker Martin Romualdez, [12:02] former Speaker Martin Romualdez? [12:04] Did you issue a subpina [12:05] kasi kay Speaker Romualdez, sir? [12:09] Yes. [12:11] Kasi, [12:12] ba't ako mag-i-issue ng subpina, [12:13] wala pa kami [12:14] sufficient na... [12:16] So, what's the... [12:17] you did that issue? [12:18] Hindi kami nag-issue, sir. [12:19] So, in other words, [12:20] for VP Sara, [12:21] you issued [12:22] not just one, [12:23] but two subpinas. [12:24] But for the former Speaker, [12:26] you did not issue a subpina. [12:27] That's just the question. [12:28] There is an apparent commission [12:29] of the crime for great threats [12:31] and inciting proceedings, right? [12:33] I see. [12:33] So, for this particular portion, [12:35] you just turned a blind eye [12:37] and did not issue. [12:39] Anyway... [12:39] There is no validated information [12:41] of that, sir. [12:42] Let the witness answer. [12:43] There was a question... [12:44] But based on your... [12:45] Counsel, kindly don't argue [12:46] with the witness. [12:47] But based on your testimony yesterday, [12:51] you said that you have a system [12:53] of evaluating factors, correct? [12:56] My question to you is, [12:58] based on that system, [12:59] does Martin Romualdez [13:01] have the capacity [13:02] to execute a death threat, [13:04] for example? [13:05] We haven't established [13:07] any apparent crime [13:09] committed by the former Speaker, [13:11] Your Honor. [13:12] So, hindi kami nag-delt dyan [13:13] sa issue na yan. [13:15] At any rate, [13:16] this minutes of the meeting, [13:18] which you all confirmed [13:19] that is part of the NBI's own record, [13:22] isn't this information [13:23] regarding the death threat [13:25] against VP Sara? [13:25] Well, ang sabi po dyan, [13:27] if I may read my press con, [13:30] kasi earlier than that, [13:32] sabi niya, [13:33] parang sabi lang niya, [13:35] gusto daw, [13:36] siyang patayin daw, [13:38] according to her, [13:39] ni Speaker, [13:40] that was during a press conference [13:42] the day before. [13:43] Precisely, Your Honor, [13:44] the reason why we issued a letter [13:46] noong November 22 [13:48] is to ask the Vice President [13:50] kung ano ho yung facts [13:51] and circumstances dyan [13:52] sa issue na yan. [13:52] But since hindi ho [13:54] nag-gabirang Vice Presidente, [13:56] wala ho talaga kaming mapagsimulan. [13:58] Wala kaming validated information. [14:00] But you issued the subpoena [14:01] against Dempsey Reyes, correct? [14:03] Yes, sir. [14:04] Pero ang tinanong nyo [14:05] kay Dempsey Reyes [14:06] yung case lang [14:07] against VP Sara. [14:09] Hindi nyo siya tinanong [14:09] ng threats to her, correct? [14:12] Well, unang-una, [14:13] ang in-establish namin, [14:14] ang focus ho [14:15] ng investigation namin, [14:16] the reason why we subpoena [14:18] the late Dempsey Reyes [14:19] is whether or not [14:21] nag-author ba [14:22] yung Vice President [14:23] doon sa statement niya [14:25] na nag-contract na siya [14:26] ng tao [14:26] para patayin si BBM, [14:28] si Lisa Marcos, [14:29] at si former Speaker. [14:30] Sir, yun po yung [14:31] focus ng investigation namin. [14:33] So despite that track, [14:34] you still maintain [14:35] that this part of the investigation, [14:37] you did not have bias? [14:38] We don't have bias. [14:39] Argumentative. [14:40] Alright, I'll move on. [14:40] Argumentative. [14:42] Let's go back [14:44] to the investigation [14:45] that you did [14:46] against VP Sara. [14:48] So you mentioned yesterday [14:50] that the offended parties [14:52] in this case, [14:53] if at all, [14:54] are BBM, [14:55] FL, [14:56] and the former Speaker, [14:57] correct? [14:58] Yes, sir. [14:59] Did you subpoena [14:59] any of them? [15:01] No, sir. [15:02] Did they appear [15:02] before the NBI? [15:04] No, sir. [15:05] Nakausap niyo ba sila [15:06] ng personal? [15:07] No, sir. [15:08] And yet, [15:09] you concluded [15:10] that they were victims [15:11] of grave threats, [15:13] correct? [15:13] Based on the evidence [15:14] we've gathered, [15:15] yes, sir. [15:15] So without [15:16] any personal [15:18] correspondences with them, [15:20] you came to that conclusion? [15:21] The evidence is clear, sir. [15:26] According to you. [15:27] Oh, objection. [15:28] Your Honor, [15:28] I move that... [15:30] Wait, wait, wait. [15:30] We cannot let this pass. [15:32] I move, Your Honor, [15:33] that the Defense Council, [15:36] with all due respect, [15:37] be admonished [15:38] from stating [15:40] those unprofessional remarks. [15:43] We are in front [15:44] of National TV. [15:46] That is his answer. [15:47] If you are not satisfied [15:49] with his answer, [15:50] please don't lay [15:51] any value [15:52] to what the witness [15:53] answered. [15:55] Your Honor, [15:55] may I move that... [15:56] This is a reminder [15:57] for counsel [15:59] for both parties. [16:01] Kindly avoid [16:02] side remarks. [16:04] Henceforth, [16:04] the presiding officer [16:05] will have it [16:06] stricken off the record. [16:07] And whatever question [16:09] you pose [16:10] and afterwards [16:11] withdraw [16:11] will likewise [16:13] be stricken off [16:14] from the record. [16:15] So as to avoid [16:15] any attempts [16:17] at showmanship, [16:18] usually seen on TV, [16:20] yes, [16:21] but will not be tolerated [16:23] by this impeachment court. [16:25] Counselors are so reminded... [16:27] We will comply, [16:28] Your Honor. [16:28] Please proceed. [16:29] To clarify, [16:30] Mr. Witness, [16:32] yung NBI subpina [16:33] against VP Sarah [16:34] that you issued [16:35] was her being [16:36] a respondent, [16:38] correct? [16:39] Yes, sir. [16:39] Pero as a complainant, [16:41] you did not issue... [16:42] We issued a letter, sir, [16:44] December 2. [16:44] No, no, no. [16:44] As the complainant [16:47] na siya yung subject [16:48] naman ng threats, [16:49] walang subpina [16:50] as to that effect. [16:52] Walang subpina, sir. [16:53] So in other words, [16:54] hindi talaga siya [16:54] naka-explain [16:55] kasi what you sent out [16:56] was a letter [16:57] and not a subpina. [16:59] Yung letter [17:00] is to inform [17:01] the Vice President [17:02] na iniimbestigahan din namin [17:04] yung threat [17:04] against the life niya. [17:06] So therefore, [17:07] kailangan namin [17:07] yung presence niya [17:08] or any information [17:09] na pwedeng makatulong [17:10] sa investigation. [17:11] Yun na nga, [17:11] pero hindi mo, [17:12] hindi niya siya sinenda [17:13] ng subpina. [17:13] Isn't it that [17:14] in a regular case, [17:16] the prosecutor [17:16] sends out the subpina [17:17] both to the complainant [17:19] and to the respondant? [17:20] With the prosecutor, sir? [17:21] Yes. [17:22] You're a lawyer, [17:23] you know this. [17:23] When you file a case [17:24] before the prosecutor's office, [17:26] the handling prosecutor [17:27] issues out [17:28] sa subpina [17:29] sa parehong parties. [17:30] Alam ko, [17:31] during the case concert, [17:32] I think nag-appear yata [17:33] ang Vice President [17:34] sa DOJ. [17:36] Doon ako na-inform. [17:37] Okay, I'll move on [17:37] to a new point. [17:39] Let's talk about [17:39] the reversal [17:40] by the DOJ. [17:41] There was [17:42] an initial finding [17:44] on February 5 [17:45] and then it was [17:46] eventually reversed. [17:48] Now, [17:48] would you agree with me [17:49] that the rectifications [17:51] that you made [17:52] for the first affidavit [17:53] of investigation [17:54] were procedural deficiencies? [17:58] Procedural deficiencies. [17:59] No, it's part [18:01] of the case buildup, [18:02] Your Honor. [18:03] But what you added [18:05] were TSNs, [18:06] affidavits [18:07] of your own agents, [18:09] correct? [18:09] Don't you consider that as... [18:10] Those were affidavits. [18:12] Yes, but don't you consider [18:13] that those [18:13] as procedural [18:14] and not substantive? [18:16] Part of the evaluation [18:18] and case buildup, [18:19] yes, sir. [18:19] Alright. [18:20] But in effect, [18:22] the substance [18:22] of the case [18:23] remained the same. [18:25] Walang nabago ho [18:26] sa affidavit, [18:27] sa una [18:27] at sa pangalawa, [18:28] parehas po yun. [18:29] Very good. [18:29] So, in other words, [18:30] wala kang [18:31] no additional discussion [18:32] on the merits [18:33] of the case? [18:35] On the merits [18:36] of the case, [18:37] yung findings namin, [18:38] hindi yun nabago yun, sir. [18:39] Very good. [18:39] So, no additional [18:41] witnesses were interviewed? [18:45] What do you mean [18:46] interviewed, sir? [18:46] Wala nang additional [18:47] interviews. [18:48] Kung ano yun sa [18:48] first affidavit nyo, [18:50] yun na rin yun sa [18:50] second affidavit. [18:52] Wala nang additional [18:53] interviewees? [18:56] Kung, [18:56] I think, [18:57] ang naalala ko, [18:59] anim ho na [18:59] media personalities [19:01] ang na-interview namin [19:02] at yun ho yung [19:03] nag-reflect [19:03] sa affidavit [19:09] at the same time [19:10] we tried to issue [19:10] subpoena [19:11] sa, I think, [19:12] head ng ABS-CBN. [19:13] I understand that, [19:14] but be more responsive. [19:15] Your Honor, [19:16] Your Honor, [19:16] if I may, [19:17] the witness is still [19:18] in the process [19:19] of answering his question. [19:20] Your Honor, [19:20] but the answer is [19:21] not responsive. [19:23] My question is very simple. [19:24] Let me finish first [19:25] with all the respect, [19:26] Your Honor. [19:26] With the permission [19:28] of the counsel [19:29] for the parties, [19:30] Attorney Lutok, [19:30] the question was, [19:33] sa pagitan ng una [19:34] at pangalawang [19:35] sinubmit ninyo sa DOJ, [19:37] may mga testigo [19:38] ba kayong dinagdag [19:39] sa pangalawa [19:40] nyong submission [19:41] sa DOJ? [19:42] O pareho din po [19:43] yung mga testigo [19:44] nilakip lang [19:45] yung mga affidavit [19:46] na hindi na ilakip [19:47] dun sa unang pagsabit? [19:49] Yeah, insofar as [19:50] I'm concerned, [19:50] Your Honor, [19:51] parehas lang po. [19:52] Okay. [19:53] Alright. [19:53] But we will never know [19:55] that for sure [19:55] because you never released [19:57] your first affidavit [19:58] of investigation, [19:59] correct? [20:01] Well, I think