About this transcript: This is a full AI-generated transcript of US Senate Hearing on Aviation Safety & Near Misses — Sen. Jerry Moran & Chris Sununu from Defense Now, published June 23, 2026. The transcript contains 17,784 words with timestamps and was generated using Whisper AI.
"Good morning, everyone. Thank you for your presence this morning. Thank you to our witnesses for joining us. And, Dr. Duckworth, it's been good to work with you in bringing this subcommittee's hearing to fruition. And I now call that subcommittee to order. Our hearing is titled Close Calls,..."
[12:26] Good morning, everyone. Thank you for your presence this morning. Thank you to our witnesses for joining us.
[12:30] And, Dr. Duckworth, it's been good to work with you in bringing this subcommittee's hearing to fruition.
[12:37] And I now call that subcommittee to order.
[12:42] Our hearing is titled Close Calls, Improving Safety Across the National Airspace System.
[12:48] We have with us today Governor Sununu, Governor Chris Sununu, President and CEO of the Airlines for America,
[12:54] Todd Hopley, the President and CEO of American Association Airport Executives, James Viola, President and CEO of General Aviation Manufacturers Association,
[13:05] and John Jason Ambrose, President of the Airline Pilots Association.
[13:10] Thank you for your commitment to maintaining the safest air system in the world.
[13:15] This subcommittee certainly eyes its chairman. The safety of our aviation system is our highest priority.
[13:21] The United States has built a remarkable safety record through decades of collaboration, innovation, and commitment to learning from mistakes.
[13:30] But we certainly should not be complacent.
[13:33] Today's hearing reflects a growing concern shared by industry, government, and traveling public regarding numerous close calls we've seen in recent years across the nation.
[13:42] Just this past weekend at Boston Logan International Airport, a Delta Airlines flight was forced to abort its landing and execute a go-around after an aircraft departed from an intersectional
[13:53] runway. While the flight landed safely and no one was injured, the incident serves again as a reminder of why continued vigilance and safety improvements across the national airspace system remain essential.
[14:06] These incidents have occurred in a variety of different environments and different circumstances.
[14:11] These close calls did not become tragedies because of safety professionals, pilots, air traffic controllers, and airport personnel responded to the dangers,
[14:18] and our safety system worked. But regardless of that outcome, they still remain a warning call for and a reminder that our aviation system is fragile
[14:32] and that we must act, FAA, the private sector, Congress, should act in all ways responsible before a tragedy occurs.
[14:43] Today we will evaluate the trends we are seeing across the system, whether current training programs are sufficient,
[14:48] if aviation professionals have the tools and resources they need, and whether we are utilizing all available technologies.
[14:54] We will also review the steps that can be taken by Congress, by the FAA, and industry to reduce risk and improve safety.
[15:02] The challenges facing our aviation system are not limited to a single issue. They include runway incursions,
[15:08] surface safety incidents, increasing operational complexity, workforce shortages, controller staffing concerns, aging infrastructure,
[15:15] and the need for technology's modernization. Addressing these challenges require a system-wide approach and a commitment to continuous improvement.
[15:21] As we consider how to strengthen safety across the system, we should also evaluate how new technologies can help identify risks early.
[15:30] Recent reporting highlighted FAA's efforts to evaluate how artificial intelligence could assist with air traffic management, reduce congestion, and support operational decision-making.
[15:39] While these tools are not intended to replace and cannot replace the judgment of aviation personnel, they may offer new ways to identify emerging risks, improve situational awareness, and increase the safety of our air system.
[15:54] In the coming months, coming weeks, really, I intend to introduce the Runway Safety Awareness and Focused Effective Training and Technology Act, of course, it turns into some set of letters, the Runway Safety Act.
[16:06] This legislation would focus on improving airport driver training and supporting technologies to reduce runway incursions and other surface safety incidents.
[16:16] Close calls should not simply be viewed as warnings. They are critical opportunities to strengthen the system, procedures, and technologies that keep the flying public safe.
[16:25] I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about the trends they are seeing, the lessons that can be learned from recent close calls, and how Congress can partner with industry to make certain the United States maintains a high standard of aviation safety.
[16:36] Again, I thank our witnesses for your presence here today, and I recognize the Senator from Illinois, Senator Duckworth.
[16:42] Senator Duckworth.
[16:44] Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[16:45] Chairman Ryan, I want to thank you so much for your continued work, and there's no question as to your dedication to aviation safety.
[16:52] Thank you for bringing together this panel of industry experts for a very critical conversation about an issue that should concern every American, the alarming rise in close calls in the national airspace system.
[17:03] In November of 2023, I chaired a committee hearing on this very topic.
[17:08] National Transportation Safety Board Chair Jennifer Homendy warned that, and I quote, the concerning uptick in such incidents is a clear warning sign that the US aviation system is sharply strained.
[17:17] We cannot wait until a fatal accident forces action.
[17:20] We must act before there is tragedy, end quote.
[17:23] That warning has only grown more urgent.
[17:26] Today marks 510 days since an Army Black Hawk helicopter collided midair with flight 5342 over the Potomac, a tragedy that robbed families of the chance to ever see their loved ones again.
[17:37] 67 people lost their lives, and we have four of those families here today.
[17:43] And I thank you for your continuing dedication concerning your grief and loss into improving the air traffic control system for the rest of us.
[17:52] Last month, when Administrator Bedford testified before this committee, I pressed him to commit to implementing the NTSB's recommendations stemming from the DCA midair collision.
[18:02] And I ask the same with this panel that is here today.
[18:05] We must learn from this catastrophe and from the hundreds of warning signs we see in close calls that happen every single year.
[18:12] While this is a hearing on close calls, I want to acknowledge tragedies that took place in the last two weeks.
[18:17] My heart goes out to the families of the 12 individuals that lost their lives in Butler, Missouri, when a single engine turboprop plane crashed in the field and caught on fire,
[18:25] and to the families of the eight people who were fatally injured when a B-52 crashed shortly at the takeoff on Edwards Air Force Base.
[18:33] Our aviation system's safety depends on layers of redundancy.
[18:36] When multiple layers begin to fray, the entire system becomes vulnerable.
[18:41] And in May, at Newark Liberty International Airport, United Flight 169 struck a light pole on final approach.
[18:47] The light pole then flew into a tractor trailer that was traveling southbound on the New Jersey Turnpike.
[18:52] I always knew the New Jersey Turnpike was dangerous, but holy cow.
[18:56] Senator Kim's not here, but he would probably respond to that.
[18:58] The incident put 221 passengers, 11 crew members, and countless travelers at risk.
[19:03] Luckily, the truck driver only sustained minor injuries.
[19:06] And just this past Saturday, as the chairman has mentioned, around 11.30 a.m., Delta Airlines Flight 2351 was on approach at Boston Logan International Airport.
[19:16] Air traffic control cleared American Airlines Flight 3161 to take off moments before Delta Flight 2351 was about to touch down on an intersecting runway.
[19:25] The crew of the Delta Flight spotted the American Boeing 737 and executed a go-around to avoid a collision, saving the lives of the 129 passengers and six crew members on board.
[19:35] These closed calls remind us of the tight margins for the calculations made by pilots and air traffic controllers.
[19:42] In far too many of these incidents, the difference between a closed call and a deadly disaster has come down to a single highly trained and professional individual taking emergency action.
[19:53] We have been fortunate to have experienced pilots and air traffic controllers who prevent disaster.
[19:58] And we must continue to invest in those pilots and air traffic controllers.
[20:01] That is why I fought to protect the 1500 hour route to ensure that pilots have the training necessary to make split second decisions that save lives.
[20:09] The 1500 hour route that came out of the Kogan air tragedy must be maintained.
[20:13] The safety of our skies would not be possible without the dedicated air traffic controllers who are too often overworked, understaffed and forced to use antiquated equipment.
[20:22] While I anticipate today's conversation will focus on the equipment that is needed to keep our skies safe, the workforce must be part of that conversation.
[20:31] The workforce is critical to that conversation.
[20:33] While new equipment is necessary, many of these issues that threaten aviation safety are far harder to tackle than replacing wires.
[20:40] Like rewiring the culture of complacency at the FAA, addressing the dire mental health issues that pilots and air traffic controllers too often experience, and building a robust aviation workforce.
[20:52] An effective modernization of the national airspace system requires sustained focus and dedicated funding.
[20:58] And I can't believe that we're sitting here today almost a year after the one big beautiful bill that provided only a third of the funding required to modernize the air traffic control system.
[21:08] In fact, our president seems far more interested in spending $300 billion to reconstruct Iran, instead of spending a fraction of that around $50 billion to build an air traffic control infrastructure that would secure the safety of our skies.
[21:24] Think about that. He'd rather spend $300 billion repairing Iran because of his war of choice than actually investing in our air traffic control system, which we have said is critically in dire need of that investment.
[21:38] You know, that's in addition to the billions that the president jammed through Congress in his massive spending bill and millions in taxpayer dollars he has wasted on his pet projects like his Marie Antoinette ballroom.
[21:49] Republicans may control both chambers of Congress and the White House, but there is bipartisan agreement that we must strengthen the safety of the NAS.
[21:55] We must remain steadfast because real progress requires every stakeholder, industry, labor, regulators, policymakers on both sides of the aisle who are dedicated to this.
[22:04] We must work together. We frankly have no other choice. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[22:09] Senator Duckworth, thank you very much. I'd now like to introduce our witnesses.
[22:13] Our first witness is Governor Chris Sununu, the president and CEO of Airlines for America, which represents the country's major carriers and cargo companies.
[22:20] Mr. Sununu is the former governor of New Hampshire and the longest serving Republican governor in nearly a century.
[22:26] Our second witness is James Viola, president and CEO of General Aviation Manufacturers Association.
[22:31] In his role, Mr. Viola represents the interests of over 140 airframes, avionic engine and component manufacturers.
[22:41] Third witness is Todd Hopley, president and CEO of the American Association of Airport Executives.
[22:46] Mr. Hopley represents the interests of airport employees ranging from the C-suite to the terminal and airfield.
[22:54] And our final witness is Captain Jason Ambrosie, president of the Airlines Pilots Association.
[23:00] In his role, Mr. Ambrosie advocates for more than 75,000 pilots serving as the spokesperson and leader for the organization.
[23:07] He advocates for pilot safety and sustainable aviation industry.
[23:11] Governor Sununu, you are recognized for five minutes.
[23:14] Well, thank you very much. So good morning.
[23:17] Good morning.
[23:18] Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Duckworth, members of the Aviation Subcommittee.
[23:21] My name is Chris Sununu, serving as president and CEO of Airlines for America.
[23:26] So thank you for inviting us.
[23:27] And on behalf of Airlines for America and our members, we appreciate the opportunity to participate in this review of recent near misses and the work needed to further strengthen what is the safest aviation system in the world.
[23:38] Let's begin, obviously, by taking a moment to recognize the lives of those that have been lost and those affected in the recent accidents.
[23:46] To thank all those first responders who risked their lives in those situations.
[23:50] These moments are a somber reminder that aviation safety demands constant vigilance.
[23:55] I'd also like to acknowledge the efforts of the Federal Aviation Administration and National Transportation Safety Board led by FAA Administrator Brian Bedford and NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy.
[24:06] Their drive toward aviation safety and dedication to this critical mission is foundational to its success.
[24:12] U.S. commercial aviation remains extraordinarily safe, and that record has been built through decades of disciplined collaboration among airlines, manufacturers, airports, pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, dispatchers, and traffic controllers.
[24:25] Our industry is defined by its people and their commitment to learn from every incident.
[24:30] Airlines utilize data-driven, non-punitive, and highly collaborative safety programs to identify precursors and implement mitigations before harm occurs.
[24:40] Central to this approach are air carrier safety management systems, known as SMSs, which institutionalize proactive hazard identification, risk assessment, and continuous improvement across operations.
[24:54] SMSs provide a structured organization-wide framework for managing safety risk through clearly defined policies, formal processes, and a strong safety culture.
[25:05] By integrating data from voluntary reporting programs, operational performance metrics, safety analysis, it's these SMSs that enables air carriers to prioritize their resources, address those emerging risks, and continuously monitor mitigation effectiveness.
[25:20] In addition, this cultural bedrock of safety, airlines utilize technology to combat challenges both in the air and on the airport services.
[25:30] Technologies that reduce the likelihood of mid-air collisions by providing traffic and resolution advisories that direct pilots to maintain or increase separation.
[25:38] Those are a core safety component for our air carriers.
[25:42] Ground-based technologies that improve controller awareness and reduce runway encouragement risk are also integral in reducing those incidents and accidents.
[25:50] We always say aviation safety is a journey. It is not a destination.
[25:55] And while industry stakeholders and regulators continue their efforts to identify, assess, and mitigate systematic risk, there's also a key role for Congress to play.
[26:04] Most importantly, Congress must support the people, the infrastructure, and the operational stability that the national airspace system requires.
[26:12] This includes supporting policies that promote the sustained hiring, training, and retention of safety-critical aviation workers.
[26:20] A modern safety system requires enough certified controllers, enough instructors, and enough training capacity to support the system safely and efficiently.
[26:30] Congress should absolutely build upon its $12.5 billion down payment toward air traffic control modernization with the next round of funding to ensure that technology gaps that have been ignored for the past 30 years finally get addressed.
[26:44] Air traffic modernization is one of the few policies that does enjoy bipartisan, bicameral support, as well as the support of nearly 60-member Modern Skies Coalition, consisting of stakeholder organizations across the entire industry.
[27:00] If I had an eighth page, I would read it to you.
[27:04] In closing, it's really all about making sure that the policies going forward are applicable and timely, and making sure that we're not delaying any more, whether it's in funding, whether it's in technology for operational safety, or making the investments in the most important part of the system, which is the people.
[27:25] We have the safest aviation system in the world, and that's something to be very proud of, but it also comes with the responsibility of maintaining that and living that journey every single day. Thank you very much.
[27:36] Or better close than if you had a piece of paper. Well done.
[27:40] Mr. Hopley, while I didn't introduce you in that order, Mr. Hopley, you are now recognized.
[27:45] Thank you, and thank you for the invitation. It's always an honor to be before the committee, and thank you for your continued focus on aviation safety.
[27:53] Recent tragedies and incidents reinforce that we can never become complacent, take safety for granted, or lose our shared resolve to mitigate risks.
[28:04] To successfully mitigate risk and enhance safety, I believe we need to focus on process, people, and technology.
[28:12] Three points this morning. One, process. Safety management systems are an effective framework for identifying, analyzing, and mitigating hazards and risks.
[28:23] Airports, airlines, tenants, and the FAA utilize SMS to identify local risks and to tailor mitigation efforts to unique, airport-specific circumstances.
[28:36] While the broad implementation of SMS across industry and government is enhancing safety, we need to strengthen FAA and industry coordination and data sharing, as my written testimony describes in more detail.
[28:52] Point two, people. There are opportunities to enhance safety on or near runways by addressing human factors, including more consistent initial and recurrent training.
[29:06] All workers who operate on airport movement areas, including runways, are required by the federal government to undergo extensive driver training, which often involves classroom or computer-based training, written tests, supervised driving, practical exams, and annual recurrent training.
[29:27] Triple AEE has decades of experience training airport workers. In the past year alone, we have delivered more than 67,000 movement area driver training courses and nearly 430,000 non-movement driver training courses at 325 airports.
[29:49] And we are deploying AI capabilities to provide enhanced recurrent training that recognizes individual learning habits and adjusts accordingly to promote improved learning retention and training results.
[30:04] And while effective training tools are available and improving, we believe more can be done. Specifically, we support the establishment of a task force at FAA to develop recommendations on how to improve the consistency of movement area driver training and basic skills nationwide, while preserving flexibility to address airport-specific conditions.
[30:27] We appreciate the conversations that we've had with you and your staff, Chairman Moran, and look forward to working with you to develop legislation in this area, recognizing its promise in improving runway safety at airports across the country.
[30:41] Point three, technology. Increased investments in technology and facilities to modernize the ATC system are producing real enhancements to safety and efficiency that we can build on in the years ahead to the benefit of travelers for generations.
[30:58] In the airport environment, surface surveillance tools are expected to be in place at more than 200 airports in the months ahead. These systems promise to enhance safety and mitigate near misses and can be bolstered with the installation of vehicle movement area transmitters where possible.
[31:17] Airports differ in layout, traffic mix, tower hours, runway configuration, weather, and low visibility operations, construction activity, and vehicle access needs, and they must have the ability through SMS and other assessments to evaluate and prioritize technology deployment and safety investments to effectively target each dollar toward its highest and best safety purpose.
[31:45] Current airport resource limitations are real and growing. AIP is oversubscribed by a factor of three.
[31:55] PFCs have not been adjusted for more than a quarter of a century. Billions of dollars in annual IIJI investments are expiring, and some in Congress are contemplating limits on the ability of airport operators to utilize technology to charge users for their use of airport facilities.
[32:15] We need to address those challenges, recognizing that they impact the ability of airports to fund safety projects and other critical improvements. Thank you.
[32:23] Mr. Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Duckworth and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to testify for this and for holding today's hearing. I am proud to represent General Aviation Manufacturers Association, better known as GAMMA. GAMMA is an international trade association representing more than 130 companies across the general aviation manufacturing and services sectors. Our members,
[32:36] include the world's largest manufacturers manufacturers of general aviation countries with aircraft aircraft including on
[33:07] lift aircraft, engines, avionics, components, and related technology. Gamma members are
[33:14] also providers of maintenance and repair services, fixed base operations, pilot and maintenance
[33:19] training, and aircraft management companies. In the U.S., our industry supports $339 billion
[33:26] in economic output and 1.3 million jobs nationwide. I personally have a comprehensive aviation
[33:33] background. I flew Blackhawks in the Army's 82nd Airborne and Chinooks in the 160th Special
[33:39] Operations Aviation Regiment and later served at the FAA overseeing pilot certification
[33:44] and general aviation safety. Just this weekend, I flew both an OH-6 Loach helicopter and a Grumman
[33:51] Tiger airplane. I hold an air transport ratings for both categories and I'm a flight instructor with
[33:56] 8,000 hours. I again offer my condolences to the families affected by the tragic accident at Reagan
[34:04] National last January. That tragedy reminds us all to keep strengthening aviation safety culture.
[34:13] Gamma applauds the commitment and leadership of this body to respond to the tragic accident. Gamma
[34:20] values the work being done to foster technologies developed by aviation manufacturers to advance
[34:25] safety and operational improvements. Gamma is also proud to be serving on the committee of the Modern
[34:31] Skies Coalition, which is supporting the modernization of our air traffic control system. Gamma is focused
[34:38] on helping foster aviation safety and we support many key initiatives including the implementation of SMS,
[34:45] the safety management systems, and the work of the GAJSC or the General Aviation Joint Safety Committee.
[34:51] It's a public-private partnership with the FAA that has helped reduce fatal accident rates for issues like
[34:57] controlled flight into terrain through better situation awareness technology. The numbers for general
[35:03] aviation show real progress. The general aviation fatal accident rate has improved from 1.12 for 100,000
[35:11] flight hours a dozen years ago to an FAA preliminary estimate of 0.58 last year. That progress comes from
[35:20] the safer aircraft, better pilot training standards, and technology adoption such as automatic dependent
[35:27] surveillance broadcast systems, better known as ADSB. As of the beginning of this year, over 171,000
[35:35] aircraft are now equipped with ADSB out, which transmits the aircraft's position and flight information,
[35:42] and the vast majority of those operators have voluntarily installed ADSB in to see other traffic.
[35:49] Electronic flight bags provide these safety benefits to aircraft without installed displays, giving pilots
[35:56] traffic, weather, and terrain awareness on a tablet. General aviation manufacturers continue to innovate and
[36:03] provide solutions that improve runway and taxiway safety and give pilots three-dimensional views of
[36:10] traffic, terrain, and weather in the cockpit. Next-generation collision avoidance systems are being layered on top of
[36:16] ADSB to give pilots even earlier warnings of nearby traffic and obstacles. These technologies are real. Many are available
[36:25] today, and this is proof that our industry is investing in safety solutions. I do, however, want to highlight that
[36:32] making progress in safety involves the entire aviation ecosystem. New safety technology only reaches
[36:39] cockpits if the FAA has the resources and the workforce to certify it promptly, if FAA and global regulators
[36:47] harmonize the standards, if the supply chain can deliver parts, and if our maintenance and repair
[36:54] shops already near capacity can install it. I thank this subcommittee for its leadership and commitment
[37:01] to enhance aviation safety. Your sustained attention and your willingness to work with industry on
[37:07] solutions makes a real difference in how quickly these technologies can reach pilots and passengers.
[37:14] Gamma stands ready to be a resource on technology, certification, and safety policy as you continue this
[37:22] important work. Thank you for the opportunity to testify, and I welcome your questions.
[37:27] Thank you very much. Captain Moroza. Welcome. Well, thank you. Good morning,
[37:34] Chair Moran, Ranking Member Duckworth, and members of this subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity
[37:39] to testify and present the perspective of the 80,000 commercial airline pilots of the Airline Pilots
[37:45] Association International. My name is Jason Ambrosi, and I am a current and qualified 767 Captain at Delta
[37:51] Airlines and President of Alpha since 2023. As I speak before this committee today, my thoughts are
[37:58] with my union brothers. We have lost to two tragic collisions in the past 16 months. Captain Antoine
[38:05] Forrest and First Officer McKenzie Gunther, who lost their lives in the ground collision at LaGuardia
[38:10] in March of this year, and Captain Jonathan Campos and Honorary Captain Samuel Lilly and the 65 others who
[38:18] died in the mid-air collision in DCA in January of 2025. The unfortunate truth in aviation is that we
[38:27] make the most progress on safety only after lives have already been lost. Yes, we honor the lives of
[38:34] those lost by strengthening aviation safety, but I can assure you we would all rather have our union
[38:40] brothers flying the line with us. And I know their families would certainly rather have them in their
[38:46] lives rather than honoring their legacy. Alpha is calling for urgent action with the full knowledge
[38:52] that technologies that could have prevented these accidents exist and are readily available right
[38:58] now. I commend the quick work of this committee and the leaders in the Senate who drafted and passed
[39:04] the Rotaract, which seeks to close the gaps in the aviation safety net that allowed the Potomac midair
[39:09] collision and similar accidents to happen. Your collective urgency matched the gravity of the moment.
[39:16] The mid-air collision exposed a safety gap, the lack of an integrated ADS-BN mandate. Without it,
[39:24] pilots are forced to rely on last-second warning systems like TCAS that offer limited alerting time,
[39:30] insufficient call-out information, and are suppressed near the ground like in the airport
[39:36] environment. Pilots are the safest when we are aware of and can avoid threats. Of particular importance
[39:43] for this hearing, the Rotaract also has substantial benefits for surface safety, including runway incursions.
[39:50] The legislation's performance standards require integrated capabilities for pilots on the airport
[39:57] surface. This would include adopting the use of ADS-BN applications for direct runway safety-relevant
[40:04] traffic and runway alerts to flight crew on cockpit display of traffic information. Much like the airborne benefits
[40:12] of ADS-BN that have been discussed at length, the Rotaract surface applications will give flight crews
[40:18] better awareness of what's happening around them at the airport. These tools identify the runway traffic
[40:24] status under normal operational conditions, alert pilots to any abnormal traffic condition, and enable
[40:31] them to take evasive action. There are other critical technologies and systems that we must implement
[40:37] and support to reduce the risk of close calls and accidents. In the airport environment, we must
[40:43] invest in systems that could prevent collisions similar to the accident at LaGuardia earlier this year.
[40:49] While the NTSB continues that investigation, it is clear from other close calls that we need
[40:56] to do more to protect against runway incursions with surface technologies like airport surface surveillance
[41:02] capability. In addition to emerging technologies, the FAA must continue to support existing tools like
[41:09] runway status lights and airport surveillance detection equipment Model X. ALPA proudly stands with the
[41:18] administration's supports and supports the administration's commitment to modernize air
[41:22] traffic control and urges further investment to bring this plan to reality in order to maintain
[41:28] safe airspace for existing users as well as new entrants. 95 years ago, ALPA was founded by pilots who
[41:36] refused to accept that dying on the job was simply a part of flying. We fought for the very standards that
[41:43] today help make aviation the safest mode of transportation. Maintaining this safety record is knowing that
[41:51] when not to accept good enough. Two fatal accidents in 16 months tell us good enough is no longer good enough.
[42:00] This is the time for action, not the time to give in to special interests fighting progress. We cannot stall. We cannot water down the safety
[42:09] advancements of the rotor act. We must keep moving forward. We owe it to the 67 lives lost in the
[42:17] Potomac Mid-Air Collision and every life lost in aviation accidents to continue the fight for safety.
[42:24] The time to act on aviation safety is now and I commend this committee's dedication to make our system safer. Thank you.
[42:33] Let me start my questions on this issue of ADSBN. And Mr. Hopley, even you and your testimony, I think I tried to
[42:44] find it in the written testimony and couldn't, but you were somewhat subtle in your suggestion that there's an
[42:49] avoidance of technologies which may result in less fees being collected by airports. Mr. Viola, you talked about
[42:57] alternatives and the bag. And Captain, you were directing your support for ADSBN. What's the controversy
[43:08] among the interested parties that needs to be resolved so Congress can more quickly move forward with the
[43:15] passage of the Rotaract? What is it that is the difficult circumstance that keeps this from happening
[43:24] beyond just the House has a bill and the Senate has a bill? How do you see it? Mr. Viola?
[43:31] Thank you for that question. Glad to start. I think there is no question that ADSBN
[43:37] is something that even when I was at a forum and I asked the probably 500 people in the audience how
[43:42] many people voluntarily equipped and numbers were probably around 90 percent. So that is something
[43:48] we're doing. We know we all need it. I think everybody here agrees that ADSBN could have avoided the
[43:55] accident here in D.C. for sure if people had the equipment on and were operating it properly as
[44:02] you are trying to do with the bill. So we certainly support ADSBN. Anything else, Captain?
[44:08] Yeah, I'll be direct. I don't know why anybody would be opposed to this. It's a readily available
[44:14] technology. As Jim just said, many general aviation airplanes, even the airplane I flew have this
[44:20] technology, but yet I don't have it on the flight deck of our airliners. So this is ready, readily
[44:27] available. It's proven. It's been an NTSB recommendation for almost 20 years to have ADSBN.
[44:33] So I don't know why anybody would be opposed to it. Mr. Hoppley, would you be less subtle and remind me
[44:39] of why this might be an issue for some? Sure, Senator. Thank you for the question. The House version of the
[44:45] legislation contains the provision not in the Senate version that airports are very concerned with. It's
[44:52] Section 105 of the House bill, and that would preclude airports from their ability to use ADSBN for fee
[45:00] collection purposes. We think it's an important tool, a technology tool for airports to be able to use that
[45:10] for fee collection so that we can make sure that we've got appropriate safety projects going on at
[45:18] airports. And we don't think that turning off that technology, as some pilots have threatened to do
[45:27] in air, we don't think that to avoid having to pay those fees, those small landing fees, we don't think
[45:34] that's good for safety. That was what I was referencing. And those are fees that are already required
[45:39] to be paid. Yes, sir. Small airports, let me focus on that, coming from where I come from.
[45:51] These near misses are a challenge everywhere. Small airports aren't exempt. And unlike larger airports,
[45:59] many of those airports lack radar and the most basic situational awareness tools. Regional airlines
[46:08] have shared with me numerous examples of close calls between regional aircraft and general aviation
[46:14] aircraft at non-towered airports. Mr. Hopley, maybe this is, again, a question for you. What steps need
[46:23] to be taken to make sure that all aircraft are utilizing safety procedures? Sure. A couple of things,
[46:30] Senator. One, ATC modernization writ large is beneficial for the system. Large airports, small airports,
[46:39] towered airports, non-towered airports. Two, commend the FAA for the widespread deployment of surface
[46:48] awareness initiative systems. There's 90 in place with plans to put 220 in place, including Wichita as
[46:56] an example. That is definitely helping with greater situational awareness at these airports. And then a
[47:03] third point I'd raise if Senator Sheehy, I'll raise it anyway, if Senator Sheehy was still here, I would give
[47:09] him a shout out for his legislation that would require situational awareness displays at contract towers
[47:18] that do not have the STARS platform in place. I think that's something important that Congress can and
[47:27] should do to help some of these airports that you're talking about at some of these smaller facilities.
[47:34] Senator, you are a big proponent of the contract tower program. We appreciate that. And this is
[47:39] one more area of support that we think would be beneficial. Thank you. Mr. Vowla, general aviation
[47:47] operators share airspace with commercial airlines, military aircraft, and other users every day. From Gamma's
[47:53] perspective, what safety challenges are unique to general aviation community and how do they intersect
[47:59] with the broader aerospace safety concerns? Thank you for that question. The general aviation aircraft
[48:08] are such a wide range of aircraft to include aircraft electrical systems at the lower end with
[48:15] experimental aircraft association. And so being able to have one size that fits all is very difficult to
[48:22] do with mandates. And so as part of that, you know, having the flexibility to make sure that we have
[48:27] the performance base that you're after, which is that see and avoid of the ADS-B out, ADS-B in,
[48:35] and having the technology on board that helps keep the aircraft separated is key to general aviation. So
[48:40] that flexibility of not being able to mandate was one slide. Thank you. As a general aviation pilot who
[48:50] paid more for my 2006 F-150 than I did my 1958 Comanche, I hear you. And in fact, maybe there's some sort of
[48:59] sliding fee scale we can put in for those airport fees that maybe reflects what we do with ground
[49:06] vehicles, where we charge trucking trucks higher fees than, you know, somebody driving my mom mobile,
[49:12] my minivan. Captain Ambrosi, in 2023, you told this committee that it is clear, and I quote, I'm quoting
[49:20] you, it is clear that the system is under strain and we need to aggressively pursue solutions to stop
[49:24] these events. In that same hearing, you highlighted the importance of surface safety systems like ADS-B,
[49:30] like airport surface detection equipment, Model X, or ASDEX. On March 22nd of 2026, the CRJ 900
[49:39] operating as Air Canada Flight 8646 collided with an aircraft rescue and firefighting vehicle while
[49:45] landing at LaGuardia Airport. The captain and first officer were fatally injured. The NTS-B
[49:51] preliminary report found that the ASDEX system did not generate an oral or visual alert on the
[49:58] displays in the ATC tower to warn controllers of the potential runway conflict because the fire truck
[50:04] did not have a transponder. It's not just aircraft, but the fire truck, the ground equipment on the
[50:08] airport did not have a transponder. An ASDEX is installed at 35 airports around the country,
[50:14] including Chicago Midway, O'Hare, and LaGuardia. But without transponders on the vehicles,
[50:19] the ASDEX system could not provide an alert to controllers. Captain Ambrosi, with proper
[50:24] transponder equipage, the very safety system you advocated for in 2023 could have made a difference
[50:29] for those two pilots. Today's committee hearing is a reminder of how too often those critical warning
[50:35] calls have gone unanswered. Captain Ambrosi, do you believe that listening to the recommendation
[50:40] of pilots will increase safety standards throughout the national airspace system?
[50:44] Should be an easy question. Yeah, well thank you for the question.
[50:46] Absolutely. Softball. We're out there every day.
[50:48] It's like underhand. I'm not even... We're out there every day.
[50:50] Out there every day. Thank you. So could you please explain why pilots need integrated alerting
[50:55] technologies today? And you talked about ADS-B, especially given workload demands when navigating
[51:01] high-density operations, and why alternatives to integrated systems like electronic flight bags
[51:06] are not sufficient. And I think this is important for you to make this distinction, because there
[51:10] are those who are pushing for alternative systems, which are not sufficient, in my opinion. But could
[51:16] you give us your expert professional... Absolutely. As a fellow pilot, you understand that...
[51:22] I flew way lower and slower than you. But go ahead. That's where most of this is being...
[51:28] What we're talking about right now are these near misses. So first, back to the...
[51:32] You know, FAA is asking that... or mandating transponders on these ground vehicles,
[51:37] and they should go to everywhere. That should be there. So that when we get these tools like ADS-BN
[51:41] or the ASD-X, that it does give us that alert. But specific to the ADS-BN technology on our
[51:48] integrated displays versus yet just another app on an iPad, let's think about the situation,
[51:55] the tragic situation in the Potomac. If it was on our integrated displays, it would have given us
[52:00] a warning, given us more time, and it would be in our field of vision while those pilots were
[52:04] conducting that... that maneuver near the ground. If it's on an iPad over here, I have to look over
[52:10] here and not focus on what's going on in front of me, as well as I have a lot of other apps and
[52:16] things that I need to have on that iPad. I have my charts. I have my weather. Our flight plans now save
[52:21] trees. It's all on this one device. So now I'm fumbling through apps trying to find my collision
[52:28] avoidance technology while I should be, heads up, looking forward. So in an integrated display where
[52:36] it can't be off, it can't be in the app not open, it can't not hear the alarm or the alert is
[52:42] essential. That's why we're so focused on making sure that there's... it's integrated into our flight
[52:47] tech displays. And that's what the electronic flight back systems and some of these other alternative
[52:53] proposals that have been put forward are... they're not fully integrated. Is that correct? That's correct.
[52:57] It would be basically one more app, an eighth app, per se, on our iPad or our flight back. And I do want
[53:04] to note that the pilot on the flight controls on the Black Hawk of the flight 5342 strategy did have an
[53:11] iPad, did have the information, but it was strapped to her leg and was not wired into her headset. So she
[53:17] never got the alerts. And she was flying goggles, which means you look... I mean, your field of view is
[53:22] even further reduced in that situation. Thank you. Senator from West Virginia. Thank you. Thank you all
[53:33] for being here. It's an important topic. I just have a kind of off the wall kind of question that I'd like
[53:39] to ask each one of you, if you could be as honest as you possibly feel comfortable with. I have a feeling
[53:44] there's a lot more near misses or near tragic instances than what is formally reported. Are
[53:51] you each satisfied with the data, the formal data that we see in front of us? And do you believe it's
[53:57] collected properly so that we have the full-scale understanding of what is happening and what could
[54:03] possibly happen? And I'll start with you, Mr. Sununu. The data is absolutely there, but there are
[54:11] many more, thousands more of near misses than are probably out there in the public and that, you know,
[54:17] get the headlines. There are hundreds of them every single day. Okay. Senator, we have a concern
[54:24] and that is information sharing between pilots, air traffic controllers, airports.
[54:33] Airports aren't getting all the information we would like to get. And part of that reason
[54:38] is because airports are subject to open record laws and FOIA requests. And so there's a reluctance from
[54:46] time to time from other parties to share that important safety information with our members for fear
[54:54] that it will be published publicly. So there's an important issue there for Congress to address.
[54:59] All right. Mr. Viola? I think the close calls have benefited from aircraft being equipped with ADS-B
[55:06] and having that additional information. And as we're learning with the data that is being put into
[55:11] the system, I think it's helping us as we're doing this mitigation, as we're holding this hearing today,
[55:17] that we're moving in the right direction to get as much data as possible. And then how do we
[55:21] implement it to continue to increase the safety in the system? Mr. Ambrose? Captain. There can always be
[55:27] more data. We appreciate your initiative in the FAA bill to get more voluntary safety reporting data
[55:34] available. So getting more data and more reports, not just from pilots or air traffic controllers,
[55:39] but from other people involved in the aviation ecosystem is essential. And then, as has been
[55:45] addressed, is the actual sharing and working through that information. So, you know, go back a little
[55:51] bit in the Wayback Machine. The CAS or commercial aviation safety team was very good about digesting
[55:57] this data. That has seemed to fall off a little bit. So we would urge in this process to make sure that
[56:02] there's more, you know, again, de-identified, but get that data together so we can address that.
[56:08] So I, you know, there's a sense of agreement here that better, more data, better data,
[56:12] and there probably are gaps in the data. So we may be looking at a larger problem. But the good news is
[56:17] all of you have brought solutions here, and we're working towards solutions. I wanted to talk about a
[56:21] near miss with the West Virginia plane, actually. And I just met the pilot yesterday. Coincidentally,
[56:26] Derek Long was flying from Charleston, West Virginia into Teterboro on a company plane. And
[56:36] as he was flying, the TCAS system alerted the pilot to descend immediately. I'm sure you're familiar
[56:42] with this accident. It was well publicized. I understand it's still under investigation,
[56:47] but I did want to commend the pilot, Derek Long, for his quick thinking and saving many lives
[56:52] that day. I think we've covered things that, but in an instance like that where it is more,
[56:58] Teterboro, I think, is known as more of a general aviation, high-end general aviation airport.
[57:04] Is there anything else that you've left out of here that might have helped in that particular accident
[57:09] from what you're aware of? Does anybody have a, yes, Captain? I'll echo that having ADS-BN
[57:16] technology would have given more warning. TCAS is great. It's a last line of defense product, but having
[57:22] more time for the pilot to see, be aware of it, would make it less of a close call.
[57:29] Mr. Sununu, you obviously have the larger airlines within your realm. We hear so much about AI, AI, AI,
[57:40] to the point where we're wondering where this is going. Where does AI go to help with this
[57:49] system and help prevent us accidents? Do you see a future for that, or is that something you guys are
[57:53] doing? AI can be an amazing tool. There's no question about it, but at the end of the day,
[57:56] it's all about the people, right, that are behind the tool and the analytics used. So do we see AI
[58:02] being integral in flight planning, things of that nature, warning systems potentially, but you have
[58:09] to have the training and the people behind it, which is why our effort is always about whether it's air
[58:14] traffic controllers, pilot training, whatever it might take so that that tool is being properly
[58:19] utilized. But it's a tool. It's not a solution. Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the captain
[58:24] stated it when he started talking about the iPad off to the left side of the pilot or the right side
[58:31] of the pilot. I mean, if you've ever flown into Charleston, West Virginia, you don't want the pilot's
[58:34] eyes anywhere but right on the runway. And many of our regional and smaller airports and larger airports
[58:41] are exactly like that. So I applaud your efforts and thank you all for being here today. Thank you.
[58:46] Senator Hickenlooper, I'm going to put bipartisanship above my well-being and recognize
[58:51] you before I recognize the chairman of the full committee. Senator Hickenlooper.
[58:55] I'll make it up to both of you. Thank you. I'd like to ask each of you just quickly across the board.
[59:01] I actually lost an old close friend to a small plane accident in Colorado not too long ago. And I know
[59:11] for the family, it's very frustrating that they're not going to get a full evaluation of what caused the
[59:16] accident, what the circumstances, the causes were. For one to two years, that's pretty standard.
[59:24] Does that satisfy you guys? In this modern world, does it really take that long to get all the
[59:29] witnesses and everyone together to get the information and then make an assessment and
[59:33] then speak about it? Governor? I would say this. I can't speak for the NTSB, which is obviously,
[59:38] you know, in charge of doing a lot of these investigations. I will say, I think Jennifer
[59:41] Hamidi's done a fantastic job trying to keep up with a backlog and give themselves, you know,
[59:45] a limited timeline to meet those frustrations, to meet those those issues that have been hanging
[59:51] out there. So I do commend her and her staff. But again, I can't speak for her. But, you know,
[59:55] more staffing, more expertise in that in the area of the NTSB would always be helpful to take care of that
[1:00:00] backlog. Senator, I understand the impulse behind that. It's a litigious society that we live in,
[1:00:09] and I suspect that fear of litigation ends up being part of the time that costs to get those answers.
[1:00:17] Almost as if enough time goes by that somehow that risk diminishes. I'm not sure where the logic
[1:00:22] comes from. But anyway, thank you. Thank you for that question. And Gamma,
[1:00:26] we are supportive of the NTSB also being funded and properly staffed to carry out that intent of
[1:00:31] Congress in less than those 24 months or ideally sooner or as soon as possible. And also, I'd like to
[1:00:36] mention that the Gamma membership, the manufacturers track every incident and accident,
[1:00:41] and they are part of that workforce that goes out there to the accident scene to make sure that
[1:00:44] we can try to prevent these accidents and incidents in the future. Great. Sorry for your loss,
[1:00:51] Senator. It's a fine line, right? Because we want faster information in this society, but you also want
[1:00:58] it right. We need to make sure that the information we get is right. So as the Governor said, I can't speak for
[1:01:03] for the NTSB, more funding, more of the all of the above to help them do it. But making sure that at
[1:01:08] the end of the day, they get it right. So we really know what happened and why it happened is essential.
[1:01:14] Great. Well, I appreciate that from all of you. And I realize you can't directly impact this,
[1:01:19] but it is frustrating. And I think it's been one to two years for as long as I can remember,
[1:01:23] certainly the five and a half years I've been here. So if that time frame is always the same,
[1:01:28] then that means that the staff is working at the same consistent rate. So hire some consultants,
[1:01:35] whatever, get caught up and then start getting it done in six months. This would be a suggestion.
[1:01:42] Captain Ambrose, and as a pilot, you understand, well, all of you understand,
[1:01:47] but you perhaps understand best the value of accurate aviation weather forecasting in terms of
[1:01:52] maintaining safety at all times. Meteorologists at the Center,
[1:01:57] weather service units around the country provide up to date information, up to the moment information
[1:02:03] to aircraft controllers, to pilots. And these meteorologists use capabilities developed by
[1:02:09] the National Science Foundation, National Center for Atmospheric Research or NCAR,
[1:02:14] which of course is based in Colorado. And NCAR scientists have been working with the FAA
[1:02:20] to develop systems that identify turbulence. And this is, you know, very small amounts of turbulence.
[1:02:25] We've all seen those reports where out of nowhere people are thrown against the ceiling. The prediction
[1:02:31] of hazardous in-flight icing conditions, runway hazards due to heavy rain, microbursts that can
[1:02:39] surprise an aircraft at any time, and looking, doing a better job of predicting wind closer to the ground.
[1:02:47] So I guess I'd want to ask, what's your sense, your perspective as a pilot who understands this,
[1:02:57] about the importance and priority of accurate weather prediction for pilots? And how do you,
[1:03:03] how do you utilize forecasts and weather reports in your job? And what happens to air safety
[1:03:08] if funding cuts result in less accurate weather prediction?
[1:03:12] Well, thank you for the question, Senator. It is absolutely essential that we have the tools we
[1:03:18] need to do our job the safest. And weather is certainly an example of that. We have,
[1:03:24] whether it is strategic looking at the weather ahead of time and making a plan through our fight,
[1:03:28] or whether it's tactical because we encounter that turbulence you're talking about, and now we have
[1:03:33] to make a decision. So tools have come a long way in recent, our, this iPad we've been talking
[1:03:38] about a little while ago that's over here has turbulence forecasting models. And it can tell us,
[1:03:42] hey, let's change our altitude at this point of our flight to try to avoid turbulence to the,
[1:03:45] to the extent possible. But again, having that information presented to us is, is essential so
[1:03:51] we can make our decisions. Right. I look at, I'm out of time, but I look at it, you know,
[1:03:55] a hundred years ago, we still use leeches as, as part of a medical treatment because we just
[1:03:59] understood so little. I feel we're the same place with weather and that we, this is not the time to
[1:04:05] roll back our, our, our applications of, of, of resources and, and technology to get better weather for
[1:04:12] forecasting. I think we're right on the edge of really beginning to understand it more thoroughly.
[1:04:16] Anyway, thank you all for being here and for your efforts to keep our, our skies safe.
[1:04:20] Senator Hickelman, thank you. Uh, pleased to recognize the chairman of the full committee,
[1:04:25] Senator Cruz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to
[1:04:29] each of the witnesses for being here. Uh, I want to first express my condolences
[1:04:33] to the families of the victims of the plane crash during the skydiving,
[1:04:37] diving trip in Missouri. Uh, and also to the families of the victims of the
[1:04:42] B-52 test flight in California. That flight that went down was named the Spirit of Aggieland.
[1:04:48] And, uh, many in the Texas A&M community are, are grieving, uh, grieving the loss of, of, of those
[1:04:55] individuals. Uh, I likewise want to express my deep condolences to the loved ones of Josh Baer,
[1:05:02] uh, an Austinite and an entrepreneur, uh, who tragically died in the plane crash in Laredo just
[1:05:09] last week. Uh, I knew Josh for many years, uh, and he was here in D.C. meeting with my staff just,
[1:05:16] just a week before he crashed. Uh, as chairman of this committee, I will be paying close attention
[1:05:22] to the FAA and the NTSB's investigations into the crash, uh, and to upholding the highest aviation
[1:05:29] standards. Captain Ambrosie, uh, earlier this month, uh, I met with pilots from Texas, all of whom
[1:05:37] were vigorous champions for requiring 80 ADSB in. Just this weekend, two commercial airliners came
[1:05:45] within 300 feet of colliding in Boston. It is clear to me that better situational awareness tools
[1:05:51] should be deployed in cockpits like what is required in the Rotaract. In your judgment,
[1:05:57] how valuable would it be for pilots equipped with integrated ADSBN to have real time visibility of
[1:06:04] both other aircraft and ground vehicles operating on taxiways and near runways? Sir, thank you for
[1:06:11] your question. Thank you for your leadership on Rotar. Uh, it's been great to partner with you on
[1:06:16] that. It's essential. We need it. It's, it's technology that's readily available. The NTSB is saying we should
[1:06:23] have it since 2008. You know, why don't we have it? So I completely agree. Um, no sense taking more time.
[1:06:30] Let's get it. Let's get it now. Well, and prevented a couple of tragedies. Yes, thank you for ALPA's hard
[1:06:35] work on it. Uh, I think it is critical safety, uh, a critical safety measure. Had it been the law, we would
[1:06:44] have prevented the crash over DCA and 67 souls would still be with us. Uh, Mr. Viola, in, in your judgment,
[1:06:53] does the mandate in the Rotaract put an unreasonable burden on general aviation? General aviation
[1:07:01] certainly has some require, you know, unique requirements, but, uh, ADSBN is what we need to
[1:07:07] do to increase the safety in the airspace. And as you said, and as, uh, Captain Ambrose said,
[1:07:13] that accident in January probably would not have happened if we had ADSBN in both aircraft. So I, I
[1:07:19] appreciate your saying that and saying that on the record that the resistance in the House of
[1:07:24] Representatives, one of the main arguments is that it is somehow an excessive burden on general
[1:07:29] aviation. And, and your testimony to the contrary is, is, is helpful. I think the House's position
[1:07:36] was driven by that and also driven by very significant misinformation from the Pentagon. And,
[1:07:41] um, I have had, I think the Washington term is frank and candid conversations, uh, with the Secretary on that
[1:07:50] topic. But the safety, I would like to just follow up with the safety continuum of what the aircraft
[1:07:56] are actually using that technology. As for in general aviation, you know, what Captain Ambrose has in his
[1:08:02] aircraft into what that, uh, that aircraft would know electrical system can put in theirs. And that's
[1:08:07] where we need the FAA and the flexibility to make sure the, we have the same ability, you know, it's,
[1:08:13] it's based on what kind of safety you're looking for, or whether it's absolute safety. But the, um,
[1:08:18] um, safety continuum of being able to be get it installed in that aircraft, that's where we need
[1:08:24] the work to get done with the FAA. Terrific. That that's helpful. Let's, let's turn to a different
[1:08:30] topic, which is mixed use airspace at non towered airports, which remains a high risk area for runway
[1:08:38] incursions and near misses, uh, as these airports have no control tower to manage and direct traffic.
[1:08:44] Pilots landing at these airports are then expected to talk to one another over the radio to manage
[1:08:50] the flow of the traffic at an airport. This has led to numerous instances of miscommunication
[1:08:55] between general aviation aircraft and regional carriers. Governor Sununu,
[1:09:00] what inherent risk does this operation pose to the airspace when pilots are expected to both
[1:09:06] communicate with other pilots and to land their aircraft without guidance from ATC?
[1:09:11] Yeah. So, uh, just to be clear, um, our, our operators on the commercial side almost always
[1:09:16] land at towered sites, but in those cases, a couple of things to, to realize. Number one,
[1:09:19] our, our pilots are trained, uh, but it definitely increases the risk. It puts all the risk on that
[1:09:24] flight crew to make sure that they are maintaining that, that visual separation. Um, so yeah, it's, it's,
[1:09:30] it's a higher risk operation without a doubt and other technology solutions and that can be implemented
[1:09:35] without a doubt. Thank you. Sir Duckworth. Uh, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Sununu, um,
[1:09:46] as you know, the FAA is currently working on the development of, um, the strategic management of
[1:09:51] airspace routing trajectories, otherwise known as SMART, as a very long name just to get a great
[1:09:56] acronym, system, to predict airspace conditions and optimize the national airspace system. And
[1:10:02] the SMART system will propose scheduled changes to air carriers to help deconflict the airspace,
[1:10:07] along with providing controllers predictive analytics, something that I think is very positive.
[1:10:12] Effective rollout of SMART will require the support of all air carriers. Governor Sununu,
[1:10:16] how is FAA engaging with carriers on the development of the SMART system?
[1:10:20] I'll say this. I think the FAA is taking steps I have not seen before in a really positive way,
[1:10:26] in terms of engaging with not just the carriers, but subject matter experts in all aspects of aviation.
[1:10:31] It could be the manufacturers themselves. They've asked some of our carriers to provide subject matter
[1:10:35] experts in a variety of different disciplines to come in, even before a contractor was proposed,
[1:10:40] when they just were kind of looking at this as an idea. What were the barriers? Where's the system
[1:10:45] break down? What can we do and not do? And maybe how to separate out the project into various phases,
[1:10:50] so we can collect kind of the short-term wins and deal with more of the longer-term issues down the
[1:10:55] road. So, um, I don't mean to say this in a derogatory manner, but it's not just a bureaucratic
[1:11:01] process with a bunch of folks behind the scenes. It's a process that, uh, Brian Bedford and the FAA really
[1:11:06] has engaged the private sector. So it's good that they're engaging all the stakeholders. Wonderful.
[1:11:11] The FAA is also, um, I understand, developing a common automation platform, the CAP,
[1:11:17] to streamline how controllers receive and share flight data. Governor Sununu, given A4A's involvement
[1:11:23] in the development of smart system and how important the stakeholders input is, which I agree with you,
[1:11:28] could you speak to the importance of involving stakeholders, specifically air traffic controllers,
[1:11:32] in the development of CAP and any system to manage the airspace? Because the air traffic
[1:11:36] controllers are going to need to do this. Absolutely. So, you know, one of the, I go back to the
[1:11:39] Modern Skies Coalition that was put together. This is 60 different organizations. It's the, the,
[1:11:43] everyone from the pilots to the manufacturers to the carriers themselves, um, making sure that
[1:11:48] everyone has a voice in that, because everyone has a different piece of that responsibility.
[1:11:52] Everyone has a voice when it comes to the common automation platform opportunities. I will say that,
[1:11:57] um, while a lot of the common automation platform, uh, issues have been discussed,
[1:12:01] without the second round of funding, uh, or at least another round of significant funding for air
[1:12:06] traffic control modernization, right now it's still an idea. Um, not a lot of, uh, a significant
[1:12:11] portion of the first 12 and a half billion was allocated to common automation platform. Just a little
[1:12:16] bit to kind of get it started, the real opportunity is in that next round. And our biggest fear is that if that
[1:12:21] next round of funding doesn't happen, given the speed that the FAA has performed so far,
[1:12:26] we feel very confident that making sure that those dollars come in in that next round,
[1:12:30] that's how you really achieve both bringing in the industry and making sure we get something real for,
[1:12:34] for the, uh, NAS. Thank you. I couldn't agree with you more on the importance of, um, dedicating that
[1:12:39] funding, but also the importance of having the air traffic controllers be part of the development of
[1:12:43] the system. Um, and then I, uh, you know, as you said, uh, you know firsthand the importance of involving
[1:12:49] stakeholders and decisions about safety technology. Do you also believe that listening to the
[1:12:53] recommendations of pilots will increase safety standards throughout the national airspace
[1:12:56] system? Is pilots part of this? Pilots are more than part of it, right? They're right in the middle
[1:13:01] of it. So absolutely. You know, the fact that there's a, this non-punitive system, I mean,
[1:13:05] I'm taking a little bit of a step back that, that allows pilots or flight crews or, or folks in a tower
[1:13:10] to be able to report, uh, without, uh, the, the punitive aspects of it to do it in an anonymous way or
[1:13:16] unidentifiable way has allowed that information, that data to flow, you know, very freely. But that
[1:13:21] is a great example of why the pilots, the air traffic controllers, the flight crews, the, um, the
[1:13:27] management systems, uh, back, especially on the commercial side, all that data has to be readily
[1:13:32] available, but they have to talk to them. They have to integrate them. They have to bring their voices to
[1:13:36] the table. Thank you. Um, and, and, you know, Captain Ambrosio testified in front of this very committee
[1:13:41] three years ago about the importance of ASDEX, and today we heard from him again about the critical
[1:13:45] need to provide pilots with alerting technology, especially ADSB-N, and you've emphasized that.
[1:13:50] Um, the NTSB has actually urged FAA to require ADSB-N at least 18 times over the last 20 years,
[1:13:56] and frankly, I don't think we can wait to equip aircraft with technology pilots desperately need.
[1:14:01] Um, will A4A listen to pilots and commit to ensuring its members equip fleets with ADSB-N to advance
[1:14:06] the safety of our national airspace? So we love the concept of ADSB-N, but
[1:14:10] a couple pieces here. Number one, it should be all across the board, right? It shouldn't just
[1:14:14] be one crew or one piece of equipment or excluding all these loopholes that have existed for many
[1:14:19] years. Close the loopholes. Enough is enough. Everybody, if we're going to participate, all the
[1:14:23] blips have to be accounted for in the airspace. The second, and I think it's a very significant
[1:14:27] piece, is there, there isn't a certified solution for a lot of pieces of equipment currently out there.
[1:14:32] And to go through design, certification, manufacturing, and then finally get it, start getting it
[1:14:38] implemented on all the new, all the equipment out there. That isn't months or even a couple years.
[1:14:43] That's many, many years. So one of our frustrations is the certification process does take so long,
[1:14:48] and it's not there right now. So are we going to wait three, five, six years to get, you know,
[1:14:55] even after a mandate comes, to actually get it potentially implemented because the technology,
[1:15:00] if even if you started today, would take so long to get it in every piece of equipment out there.
[1:15:04] So are there other shorter term solutions out there? Are there other technologies? We're kind
[1:15:08] of technology agnostic. We'd love to see something in the cockpits. We'd love to see it sooner than
[1:15:14] later. But we just want everyone to appreciate the time to design, certify, manufacture, and implement
[1:15:19] is quite a, quite a breadth. And why should we wait, right? Why should we have such a gap?
[1:15:24] But you're not saying that alternative equipment provides the same level of safety, right? You're just
[1:15:30] saying that if you're going to have ADS-B in, have it in for everybody across the board. Everybody should
[1:15:34] have ADS-B in. I'm saying, well, what I am saying is it's better to have something than nothing in
[1:15:39] the short term while we build to a stronger solution. You know, that's a, I think that's a positive.
[1:15:44] But you're not opposing a mandate for everybody to have ADS-B in? No.
[1:15:47] As long as it's there for everyone and everyone appreciates the timeline. If you, if you say it has to
[1:15:52] be done and it has to be done in three years, that's physically not possible. So that's our frustration.
[1:15:56] We'd love to see it done. But again, the design, implementation, manufacturing, supply chain issues,
[1:16:03] we've talked to the manufacturers, you know, the supply chain being with the military, being with
[1:16:09] competing with all the other aspects of what's going on in aviation, that itself is going to hold
[1:16:14] things up. So we just don't want to see no solution while we wait for a solution to the more permanent,
[1:16:19] maybe even a better solution seven years down the road. We would love to see something implemented
[1:16:23] across the board sooner than later. But I would not, would it be correct to say that you're not
[1:16:28] saying let's do these alternatives, which Captain Ambrosia said is not sufficient, um, instead of ADS-B in?
[1:16:35] You're just saying you want something. Let's do both. Your support. Right, we're agnostic. I think doing
[1:16:41] both wouldn't be the worst idea in the world because we know that something is is potentially in there
[1:16:45] before the the extensive timeline of getting the firmest and the best. And by the way, if I may,
[1:16:51] by the time you get the next technology in seven, eight years down the road in the entire fleet,
[1:16:55] we could have even a better technology. So let's just be fairly technology agnostic and make sure
[1:17:00] we're always trying for the best. Okay, I just want to make clear that the pilots at the heart of your
[1:17:06] operation are asking that air carriers equip aircraft with ADS-B in and that you don't resist that.
[1:17:11] And at a time when every month it seems to bring a new chilling runway incursion and near miss or
[1:17:15] collision, I urge you in the air carriers you represent to listen to pilots and do your part to ensure the
[1:17:19] safety of the national airspace system, which I think you care deeply about. But I just don't
[1:17:23] want costs to come before safety when it comes to a system like ADS-B in. Your pilots are asking for it.
[1:17:29] Yeah, cost has never been an issue. Thank you.
[1:17:32] Senator Rosen, I'm going to go to you in just a moment. I'm going to follow up on that, this point
[1:17:36] that Senator Duckworth is making. And then I've got a few questions and we'll try to conclude this
[1:17:41] hearing unless others appear in the interim. There is an issue out there with certification and
[1:17:50] manufacturing. And maybe Mr. Viola can talk about manufacturing and its capability. If there was
[1:17:55] a mandate, if the Rotaract became law today, I don't exactly know what the date in which it's
[1:18:00] required for ADS-B in to be included. The date that exists.
[1:18:05] 31?
[1:18:06] 31?
[1:18:06] 31. So can you manufacture the necessary equipment just to equip the current and growing fleet, Mr. Viola?
[1:18:16] So thank you for that question. So as in my written testimony, as well as the oral
[1:18:21] I think is that it would be a challenge to do everything and have it done by that time.
[1:18:25] Certainly sporty, I think is what my staff has told me for meeting those timelines.
[1:18:30] That's why I think as we're trying to, as you're working on this, if we do some more collaboration
[1:18:35] as what we can do today, what we can do tomorrow, and what the long range answer is, as well as
[1:18:42] that is performance based. So you're not identifying a certain type of technology, but you're allowing to,
[1:18:47] as a flight instructor, I fly around with this because this is my ADS-B in. I get it on my iPhone,
[1:18:52] I get the audio alert, and I won't fly an aircraft that doesn't have ADS-B in because of the safety
[1:18:57] that's involved.
[1:18:58] And as the Governor indicates, I mean, there's another issue. It's the FAA and certification.
[1:19:04] My impression is that that process in and of itself, that the FAA is time consuming and time
[1:19:11] consuming is more than months. It's years and huge challenges. Mr. Ambrosie, what's your response
[1:19:19] to these, I guess, practical or impractical circumstances that are out there?
[1:19:25] Well, we've talked to the major aircraft manufacturers, and they've told us they're
[1:19:30] comfortable with the timeline. They've told us that, for example, 787s, they can just push a software
[1:19:34] update and have it tomorrow. So, you know...
[1:19:36] That's my impression from conversations with Boeing, except the concern about certification.
[1:19:41] What's the FAA?
[1:19:43] Those tools are already certified on that airplane.
[1:19:46] People today could buy that as an option, but instead, if this law passes, it's now a safety
[1:19:52] requirement, so they will turn it on for them, basically. So, it's available. Does every airplane
[1:19:59] have a solution available today? I think we have time to, by 2031, to find a path there. If we don't
[1:20:05] have a deadline, it will never happen, because we know how things work around here. You know, work in...
[1:20:08] If there's no deadline, if we get to December of 2031, and it's not done, you know, look, we just
[1:20:16] kicked secondary barriers. We're at 25 years from 9-11, and the FAA gave another extension on putting
[1:20:22] secondary barriers on a flight deck. Not related to our discussion today, but when they ask for
[1:20:27] extensions, they seem to get it.
[1:20:29] Do any on the panel have knowledge of whether the... What's the capability of the FAA,
[1:20:35] regardless of the passage of the Rotaract, to require the implementation of the Rotaract
[1:20:41] provisions as it relates to ADSBN? Do you know, Captain?
[1:20:47] I'm going to restate the question to make sure I get it right.
[1:20:49] Okay.
[1:20:49] Does the FAA intend on pushing forward with ADSBN mandate regardless?
[1:20:53] It wasn't intended, but could they? Are they capable of doing that if they wanted to?
[1:20:57] They could. That's my belief as well.
[1:21:01] They could, but I don't believe they would without a mandate from Congress.
[1:21:05] And I think that's what we heard in our last hearing from the FAA administrator,
[1:21:09] that this was not going to be done on the FAA's own volition.
[1:21:15] Anybody have anything to add to that aspect of this?
[1:21:18] I would say that almost every aircraft coming off the production line today probably has ADSBN.
[1:21:25] They know that it's the right thing to do, and it's been coming off the line that way,
[1:21:28] just as Jason said here with the 777, is that general aviation aircraft that are being produced today
[1:21:35] have ADSBN integrated.
[1:21:36] If I may, the only other piece I would add to that is, look, I think the FAA is working as fast
[1:21:42] as they can on certification. It takes years to certify a seat, a seat configuration on a plane.
[1:21:47] It takes them years to get through that, and it's more of a personnel, my understanding at least.
[1:21:51] It's not a lack of trying. They're working as hard as they possibly can.
[1:21:56] But with all the different pieces of an airplane and all the aspects that have to get certified,
[1:22:01] there's a backlog there that needs to be addressed.
[1:22:03] I read in some publication, Governor, that the airlines broadly were interested in upgrading their seats
[1:22:11] on aircraft to induce, encourage additional high-end travelers by providing more comfort.
[1:22:20] And the barrier to doing so was the amount of time it would take for the FAA to certify new seats.
[1:22:26] That's right.
[1:22:27] And then I started down the path of trying to figure out how we get around that problem.
[1:22:31] Not that I'm one of those passengers, but it was not the part that caught my attention.
[1:22:36] The part that caught my attention is that certification on a seat would take years to change the seats in an airplane.
[1:22:42] That's right.
[1:22:43] Senator Rosen, thank you.
[1:22:45] Well, thank you, Chair Moran, Ranking Member Duckworth. This is
[1:22:50] such an important topic and such an important committee, and I want to thank all the witnesses
[1:22:54] for being here today and for everything that you do.
[1:22:58] I want to talk about runway incursion technology, because at large international airports like Harry Reid
[1:23:03] International Airport in Las Vegas, hundreds of airport vehicles operate on the airfield every day
[1:23:08] in close proximity to active runways and taxiways. According to the FAA, 20 percent of runway incursions
[1:23:16] in 2023 involve surface vehicles or pedestrians. So, Mr. Hopley, what role does real-time vehicle
[1:23:24] monitoring and other data-driven safety technologies play in helping airports reduce this risk of runway
[1:23:30] incursions and other surface safety incidents? Senator, thank you for the question. It plays an
[1:23:37] absolutely critical role. At Las Vegas, they have ASDX, which gives that surface surveillance capability and
[1:23:47] the automated response and the automated alerts critically important. That's one of the 35 airports
[1:23:55] that has that ASDX technology in the United States. So, absolutely critical. Thank you. I guess it just
[1:24:03] adds like to all these other things, what are the safety measures? I want to talk a little bit more,
[1:24:08] and I'm going to talk and ask again Mr. Hopley and to Governor Sununu a little bit about the impact of
[1:24:15] Customs and Border Protection on our airports and on our economy. Give you something to think about. So,
[1:24:22] like many who care about air travel, I was outraged by DHS Secretary Mullen's recent threat to remove
[1:24:28] U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers from airports and places the administration deems are
[1:24:33] not following its immigration agenda. It's not only illegal and counterproductive, but also unnecessary.
[1:24:41] Not only does every international passenger who boards a flight to the U.S. pass through a
[1:24:45] pre-departure screening, but nearly all of them must go through some type of verification process or
[1:24:51] application. And moreover, international tourism, it has already steadily declined due to this
[1:24:57] administration's policies. I'm gravely concerned that this would further impact international travel
[1:25:03] at a time when we need to be expanding tourism into this country. It is critical for our economy,
[1:25:09] top economic driver in every state in this nation and in our country, as you know. So,
[1:25:14] Mr. Hoppley, I'll ask you first, can you describe what losing CBP officers at some of our nation's
[1:25:19] largest and busiest gateway airports, probably on our coasts, right, at those international hubs,
[1:25:26] what would they do, number one, to the daily operations of those airports? And what would international
[1:25:31] then international travel look like? And then I'll follow up with you, Governor.
[1:25:37] I'm going to use more words, but the first word I'll use is chaos.
[1:25:42] I'm not surprised about that. When this proposal, or whatever you would like to call it,
[1:25:53] thought bubble was out there. The first thing we did was wrote a letter to the Secretary of Homeland
[1:25:59] Security talking about the very concerns that you raised, Senator. Concerns, we were initially very
[1:26:06] concerned that there was going to be some sense of immediacy that could negatively impact the World Cup
[1:26:15] celebrations that's occurring in the United States. Thankfully, that has not occurred.
[1:26:19] I haven't heard as much about this proposal recently. It seems to have quieted down. I'm thankful for
[1:26:25] that. But if it were to be put in place, it would have a devastating impact on commercial air travel
[1:26:33] and on the ability of people to come in to the United States and be processed appropriately.
[1:26:39] Thank you. Governor Sununu, I'm going to ask you a few things because, particularly as a former
[1:26:45] governor, you know about the economics of a state and what tourism and business travel and all of that
[1:26:51] depends on. So what are your concerns with the proposals enacted? Of course, I'm going to ask you,
[1:26:56] what's the economic impact to the airline industry? But more broadly, like I said, tourism, business
[1:27:03] travel, tourism, top economic driver in this every state in this country. What do you think the impact
[1:27:09] to our entire economy is in the United States? It would be huge, without a doubt. Let's take the
[1:27:14] case of Newark. That was kind of the most recent example where, as Todd said, more of a thought bubble
[1:27:19] there. What we were able to do is provide a lot of data. Everything from the incoming travel travelers
[1:27:25] coming just to Newark, or I should say through Newark, tens of thousands a day on the international
[1:27:30] side, most of which don't live in Newark, right? They're just part of a larger- Right, they're not
[1:27:33] only hurting that state, there's their gateways to the rest of the country. Very little impact to
[1:27:38] actual Newark. It was, in fact, I think the most common traveler that flies internationally through
[1:27:43] Newark ends up in Florida, or in our heartland of America. I hope they end up in Las Vegas.
[1:27:47] Who doesn't end up in Las Vegas, Senator, at some point? But no, so we made it very clear about the
[1:27:54] the fact that the majority, I think it's about 60% of international travelers coming back into Newark
[1:28:00] are American citizens. So it's not, it has a disproportionate effect upon American citizens.
[1:28:05] And then the commerce aspect, nearly $100 million of international commerce through FedEx, UPS,
[1:28:11] Atlas, these folks are flying into Newark, into that port every single day. The number one product,
[1:28:18] pharmaceuticals and medical equipment, that's coming through. So the fact that every day,
[1:28:22] tens of millions of dollars of highly needed products, if you will, that again, that get
[1:28:29] dispersed across America, would be affected. So it isn't minor. It's extremely major. It doesn't
[1:28:35] really affect Newark. It affects everybody else across America. And again, given a place like Newark,
[1:28:41] it's such a central hub specifically for the East Coast and products coming in through Europe,
[1:28:45] travelers coming in through Europe. I think chaos is the right word. And it's chaos on day one.
[1:28:50] And then if I may, what's the exit strategy there, right? At what point do we, is it back to normal?
[1:28:57] I think that was our other bigger concern. Is this a two-day exercise? Could this go on as a political
[1:29:02] battle for a long time? I do want to take the opportunity to say, Secretary Mullen was very open,
[1:29:07] sat down with our CEOs, took in the data. You know, obviously they're, you know, they made their decision,
[1:29:12] or at the time made the decision for Newark, and understands, I think, the implications. But to your point,
[1:29:17] yes, the implications are very real and very severe. And like anything, we just always hope that
[1:29:22] anything that is political in nature doesn't bring in the airlines and the airspace and the American
[1:29:28] traveler, whether it be shutdowns or closing ports or things of that nature. It never really seems to be
[1:29:33] about us, but everyone at this table and all the industries that we represent are massively affected by.
[1:29:38] Thank you. Mr. Chairman, could I ask one more question? Thank you. It's about drones. Drones,
[1:29:47] you know, airports and runways are increasingly operating, of course, in more congested environments,
[1:29:51] as we see that. This was like my first question. So how do we better manage mixed-use airspace? For
[1:29:59] example, in World Cup games, we've already seen DHS need to address the drone incursions. Obviously,
[1:30:04] it's a growing concern for a number of airports, including Harry Reid International Airport. It's right by
[1:30:09] Allegiant Stadium, soon to be by other stadiums and so many hotel rooms. And it's my understanding
[1:30:15] that both DHS and DOD have been developing counter-UAS technologies to dissuade, prevent,
[1:30:20] or destroy drones that are inappropriately in certain airspaces. And so I know that, Chairman,
[1:30:28] they want to close out the committee. But what I want to ask, and what I would ask for all the
[1:30:35] witnesses with your permission, is how do we better manage those mixed-use airspaces to avoid collisions,
[1:30:41] particularly over sporting events, concerts, these one-time events that happen and everyone's trying
[1:30:45] to get that video. Thank you. I appreciate that. But, you know, the proliferation of UAS is, it's not going
[1:30:54] to stop and it's not just about the danger of it. There's just, well, it is all about the danger of it. We think it's fun for
[1:31:03] the pictures, but not fun if they're bad actors. So I guess we'll start with you, Governor, and we'll just
[1:31:07] go down the line. Integrating UAS safety regulation into all aspects of our, of, whether it's through
[1:31:15] the FAA or other modes and other regulatory frameworks that manage the national airspace is
[1:31:21] absolutely integral. There can't be any loopholes. They are just as much of a, as we call a blip, whether
[1:31:26] it's a commercial airline, a private jet or UAS, they all prevent a risk and therefore have to be
[1:31:32] fully integrated as soon as possible. Thank you. I would just add on to what the governor said,
[1:31:38] in the case of airports, there's also a concern about the counter UAS. Some airports would be
[1:31:43] interested in having that command and control authority and other airports believe that that is
[1:31:49] a federal responsibility and that's an issue that still needs to be resolved. Thank you. Mr. Viola.
[1:31:55] Thank you very much for the question. So as far as the, you have participating and non-participating,
[1:32:00] on the participating side, certainly to detect and avoid the technologies that are there. And as
[1:32:05] mentioned, we want that full integration of the airspace so that not only do we know what's there,
[1:32:10] they know what's there. And again, we're sharing all that data that we think the technology is there to
[1:32:15] fly safely. Thank you. And Captain. Yeah, from the pilot's perspective, you know, we welcome this new
[1:32:21] technology, all these new entrants, but we have to proceed with caution because as you add more to the
[1:32:25] airspace, it's more congested. We need to make sure that the average passenger that buys an airline
[1:32:30] ticket that expects to be completely safe on their destination to Las Vegas, doesn't know all
[1:32:36] these drones may be around or what have you. That's right. We need, we have a responsibility
[1:32:40] as an industry to make sure that they're integrated safely. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you,
[1:32:45] Mr. Chairman. I appreciate all of you. So many questions. Thank you for your work. Senator Duckworth.
[1:32:52] Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your indulgence. I just have a couple more questions. In May of 2025,
[1:32:57] less than four months after the DCA crash, another Army helicopter incident forced two commercial
[1:33:03] flights to abort landings at DCA. It was reported that the dedicated direct access line connecting
[1:33:08] the Pentagon Tower with the DCA Tower had not worked since 2022. Included in the 2027 NDAA in Section 342 is a
[1:33:16] provision I secured directing the Department of Defense to conduct a risk assessment of its air traffic
[1:33:21] control systems and develop a modernization plan aligned with the Department of Transportation
[1:33:26] and FAA's brand new air traffic control system. The FY 2027 NDAA includes a whopping $1.5 trillion
[1:33:34] dollars in funding for national defense. Think about that. The proposal for our national defense budget
[1:33:40] is $1.5 trillion. If you include the supplemental that the president's requesting for his war of choice
[1:33:46] in Iran, that amount is going to be equivalent to the defense budget of every other nation on earth
[1:33:51] combined. We will have the same size defense budget in our nation as that of every other nation on earth
[1:33:58] combined, and yet we can't spend $48 billion on our air traffic control system. It's absolutely ludicrous.
[1:34:06] Governor, do you believe that the Department of Defense should modernize its air traffic control system
[1:34:11] aligned with U.S. DOT and FAA's modernization initiative? And how would an improved DOD ATC system
[1:34:17] impact commercial air carriers in shared airspace? 100 percent. No, no loopholes, especially around
[1:34:23] around commercial airports. So the fact that there are loopholes that exist, they take advantage of it,
[1:34:27] and there's questions around it puts every puts the entire system at risk. Right. What they did was,
[1:34:32] especially in this system here at the national airspace system, was that they took a loophole and made it
[1:34:38] SOP. And so instead of just only turning off their transponder, their ADSV out occasionally when they
[1:34:45] had, you know, a high profile VIP on board and they needed to have maintained security, they actually,
[1:34:50] it just became the norm for every flight. I agree with you. We need to close this loophole. Governor,
[1:34:55] what would be the impact of DOD also using a fraction of its more than trillion dollar budget
[1:34:59] to ensure military aircraft are equipped with and using ADSV out? It'd be a game changer. It'd be a game
[1:35:05] changer not just for the commercial aircraft coming in. I think it'd be a game changer for the military
[1:35:10] pilots. What military pilot wants to fly around an airport and not know and think that the incoming
[1:35:17] aircraft doesn't know where they are? So I understand it might be a top-down SOP that is coming,
[1:35:22] but I can't imagine being a military pilot flying around a busy airport saying, gee, I hope nobody can
[1:35:27] see me. Makes no sense at all. Thank you. I love the way you put that. Mr. Chairman, can you indulge me
[1:35:33] with one last question? Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We're really good friends, and so
[1:35:39] he indulges me all the time. I promise one day when I'm chair, I will indulge you.
[1:35:45] To close out, I have one final question for all the witnesses here today. What is one commitment that
[1:35:50] you can make to this committee today to prevent closed calls and increase the safety of the national
[1:35:54] airspace system? Start with you, Governor. Again, I think speaking for all the carriers,
[1:36:00] we're ready to implement technologies, make sure they're certified, move that process along as
[1:36:04] fast as we can, whether it's ADS-BN or the next technology down the road or a quicker technology
[1:36:09] that can be implemented. Maybe it's not as good, but at least it could be something that can be put in.
[1:36:14] We want to make sure it's there and work with the FAA to make sure that the certified process and the
[1:36:19] manufacturers can meet the demands of whatever the mandate might come. But you're not going to oppose
[1:36:24] or push back against ADS-B? Oh, no. Oh, gosh, no. No, no. No, we want all the technology we can.
[1:36:30] I don't know. Again, I don't know. Any pilot doesn't want every single piece of technology
[1:36:34] they can to make the airspace safer on behalf of their customers. Okay. Just wanted to clarify.
[1:36:38] Thank you. Mr. Thank you. For the airports, I think the focus on initial and recurrent
[1:36:45] training and enhancing that training and incorporating AI to make that training more robust
[1:36:53] and safer. Mr. Viola? Thank you very much for that question. Certainly from Gamera's perspective,
[1:36:59] you know, modernizing the certification and validation systems and possibly streamlining a special
[1:37:06] certification or less than certification for the safety-enhancing equipment to get on board as
[1:37:11] soon as possible. Thank you, Senator. You have my commitment to not take my foot off the gas on the
[1:37:16] Rotaract and the ADS-BN mandate to prevent another tragedy like happened in DCA and LaGuardia. So we're
[1:37:22] doubling down and we're with you on that. $1,500 rule? Well, that's there too. We've got a lot of
[1:37:27] things in our cart, but the alligator closest to the boat right now is getting support for this ADS-BN
[1:37:33] integrated in our displays. Thank you. Closing statement. Okay. I'm going to ask a couple
[1:37:39] questions, but you want to give your closing statement? A few questions that I want to follow
[1:37:48] up with. Visual separation. Following the FAA's March 18, 2026 decision to suspend the use of visual
[1:37:59] separation between helicopters and airlines near major airports that occurred after the January 29th
[1:38:07] collision. There was a reported close call on March 24, 26 in Southern California involving a United
[1:38:17] Airline Boeing 737 and a U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter. What's the status? Maybe this is a
[1:38:24] question for you, Captain. What's the status of the enforcement of visual separation suspension?
[1:38:34] My understanding is the rule is being enforced. I'm not boots on the ground. It would probably be a
[1:38:42] good question for our brothers and sisters at the Air Traffic Controllers Association to find out what
[1:38:47] the latest status on that is. But in any event, having an integrated ADS-B would have given those pilots in
[1:38:55] that situation more warning and more time so they didn't have to get to that last line of defense,
[1:39:00] which was a TCAS resolution advisory. Captain, you are on message.
[1:39:07] Well, it strikes me that the FAA announces, and it's only a short period of time, and still it's
[1:39:14] apparently has not been implemented, not being followed. A better question for the FAA. You're right.
[1:39:25] Mr. Hopley, the FAA reported over 1,600 runway incursions last fiscal year, and over 800 runway
[1:39:36] incursions reported already this fiscal year. What specific changes in airport operations are needed
[1:39:44] to further reduce the collisions and enhance overall aviation safety? And maybe we're back to ADS-B-N
[1:39:52] again. But are there other things? Yep. Sure, Senator. Thank you. A couple of things. Technology
[1:39:58] integrations. One, enhanced training. And as I indicated earlier in my testimony, better communication
[1:40:06] among all the parties. Airports would really benefit from access to information that some of the other
[1:40:13] other elements in the aviation ecosystem have but are reluctant to share with airports because of this
[1:40:21] issue that I raised earlier about the Freedom of Information Act. You know, Mr. Hopley, that I'm in
[1:40:27] the process of developing the bill I mentioned in my opening statement, the Runway Safety Act. It would
[1:40:34] establish a task force to evaluate airport driver training and support deployment of technologies that
[1:40:39] improve situational awareness for ground vehicle operators. From your perspective of airport operators,
[1:40:49] where do you see the greatest gaps in driver training and surface safety today? How would,
[1:40:57] how would legislation, what legislation can we utilize to reduce the incursions and improve that surface
[1:41:04] safety? Senator, first of all, thank you for working on that legislation. We look forward to working with
[1:41:09] you on that. We believe that the initial training and the recurrent training could benefit from a good scrub
[1:41:20] on that. We also believe that the task force would be a great place to a convening place for folks to talk
[1:41:28] about the integration of AI in enhanced training to try and deliver a better product for the American people.
[1:41:38] Thank you for that. Senator Cantwell is on her way, so I'm going to utilize my opportunity to
[1:41:45] filibuster. It's for her arrival. Governor Sunu, FAA staffing challenges,
[1:41:52] particularly among air traffic controllers,
[1:41:55] seem still to be a concern. What do you, what can you tell us about staffing shortages affecting airline operations and
[1:42:02] safety margins, especially high volume airports?
[1:42:04] I'll give you a quick example. There was a close call, a near miss actually, earlier this year,
[1:42:11] and you, there was one air traffic controller in the tower in charge of both landings and takeoffs
[1:42:18] from parallel runways, all at the same time. Yeah, that's just, that's a recipe for a significant
[1:42:24] problem, unfortunately. So staffing is absolutely critical. The people aspect of this equation is
[1:42:30] absolutely critical. So making sure that we're encouraging, it's not just hiring more, encouraging
[1:42:35] more people that want to enter the air traffic control space, that want to enter the the national
[1:42:40] aviation, national airspace system. I would be remiss if I didn't take the opportunity and remind
[1:42:47] folks, look, when you have two government shutdowns and you very nationally on the front page tell, tell
[1:42:52] people we're not paying air traffic controllers for six consecutive weeks, there's nothing. How do you
[1:42:58] encourage a young person to want to become an air traffic controller, right? God bless them for
[1:43:01] entering the field knowing that that is not just a risk every few years or something like that,
[1:43:07] but we've literally done it, at least with air traffic controllers, or at least with TSA agents,
[1:43:11] twice, twice in one year. So that is a huge discouragement in itself. The new air traffic control
[1:43:18] modernization bill, the fact that there are, there is money and it is being deployed for new training
[1:43:22] centers and new simulators and all that sort of thing is great. We feel very, we've seen
[1:43:28] a lot of this technology. It's being implemented already. That's very exciting stuff to make sure
[1:43:32] that folks are getting the training time. And another issue was always the time you had to sit
[1:43:37] in the seat in the towers. And that was hard, right, to make sure that the trainee had time in front of
[1:43:43] the screen. That often delayed how long it took for someone to become a fully certified air traffic
[1:43:48] controller. So it's not just the people, it's I think encouraging the opportunities that are there.
[1:43:54] I mean, they get paid, especially in air traffic controllers, they get paid good money. It's not just a
[1:43:58] job. It's a career. It's amazing skills. We should be encouraging that, not discouraging it as much
[1:44:03] as possible and making sure the technologies are there to get them fully certified and in those seats
[1:44:09] to back up, you know, all their brothers and sisters that are, are landing planes, you know, short staffed
[1:44:13] as is. I would indicate my view, which is while they're sometimes worthwhile causes that we seem to
[1:44:21] shut down government over, they are never more, we are never gaining more benefit than what the damage
[1:44:29] is done by the shutdown. So you can have your cause and you're willing to fight in a way that
[1:44:35] demonstrates how forceful you want to be in shutting down government. But the consequences of
[1:44:40] the shutdown always outweigh, the detriment always outweighs. And it's particularly true when it comes to
[1:44:46] TSA and air traffic control. And so I hope we're able to avoid that consequence, that occurrence
[1:44:54] this year, as we try to work our appropriation bills through. My final question, I chair an
[1:44:59] appropriation subcommittee that has the funding responsibilities for the National Weather Service.
[1:45:04] And I fly frequently, nearly every week, every, every week of the year. And weather seems to be more of a
[1:45:13] problem and challenge than it used to, but maybe it's just the annoyance of it that, that has built.
[1:45:20] But tell me how the National Weather Service plays. This may be you, Captain, or you, Todd, Mr. Hopley.
[1:45:31] The weather that we get from the National Weather Service, which is sometimes seen as a place that
[1:45:35] should be less funded. Is there value to aviation safety in the, in the work that the National
[1:45:42] Weather Service does? Sure, I'll take that as the guy up there in the air where the weather is.
[1:45:50] We absolutely need accurate and reliable weather data, weather reporting, everything that, that we
[1:45:56] need to, you know, it, it seems like more of a problem today. One, one of those reasons is there's
[1:46:01] more aircraft, right? 40 years ago, when we're flying across the country in our 727, there's less
[1:46:07] airplanes in the sky. So going around that thunderstorm or, or line of weather is a lot easier. Well,
[1:46:12] now our, our brothers and sisters in air traffic control are trying to get maybe a thousand airplanes
[1:46:17] around the same weather going across, across the country. So it makes it more difficult. But having
[1:46:22] accurate weather is essential to what we do. Anything else? I, I would just, uh, briefly add,
[1:46:30] Senator, that if Senator Hickenlooper were still here, I would say that, uh, he asked the question about
[1:46:35] the weather service. I have a sneaking suspicion, partly because in Denver, you get all four seasons
[1:46:40] in one day, uh, and you get that. Before they move east across Kansas. That's true.
[1:46:48] We have a national weather service, uh, station in Goodland, Kansas, the first community that is,
[1:46:53] is on the Kansas side of the border. And, uh, we are working hard to make sure that it is accurately,
[1:47:00] I'm sorry, adequately funded because it has the consequence of everything that comes across those
[1:47:06] mountains, uh, headed east. Do you want to do your closing statement before I call on Senator Cantwell?
[1:47:11] If she doesn't mind, I, it's, thank you. I, I have to run to another, uh, meeting. So thank you,
[1:47:18] uh, for the indulgence of both the ranking member of the, uh, uh, whole committee as well as, uh,
[1:47:23] Chairman Moran. Thank you to our witnesses here today for this critical conversation on aviation safety.
[1:47:27] As I've said before, it should not take a tragic accident to tell us that action is needed and we
[1:47:32] must act now. I reiterate my commitment to the families of those who have lost loved ones that
[1:47:37] I will continue to pursue all available avenues to enact robust aviation safety legislation and ensure
[1:47:42] that investment in the ATC system prioritizes our air traffic controllers and their ability to execute
[1:47:47] their core mission of safety. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Are you back? Senator Duckworth, thank you.
[1:47:52] Thank you for your cooperation in today's hearing. Uh, we're pleased to be joined now by the
[1:47:56] Vice Chairman, the ranking member of the full committee. Senator Cantwell, you're right.
[1:47:59] Thank you, Senator Moran. Thank you to you and Senator Duckworth for conducting this
[1:48:04] hearing of this morning and for your continued interest in pushing aviation safety. Appreciate
[1:48:09] both of you. Um, and I will enter a longer, uh, statement for the record, but I wanted to,
[1:48:15] since I know we've been going for a while here, I do want to recognize that we have, um, family members
[1:48:21] here from the DC air crash accident. Really appreciate their continued focus on aviation safety.
[1:48:27] Um, but also want to focus on the announcement yesterday of the FAA's award on a contract for
[1:48:35] strategic management airspace routing trajectories, the SMART platform, which is designed to use data
[1:48:43] to optimize flight schedules to prevent congestion and delays. So, um, while, you know, much news has been
[1:48:50] made over the Delta and America Airlines flights at Logan Airport this past weekend and the investigation
[1:48:56] is ongoing, to me, obviously this has been a year when we've had many, many serious close calls.
[1:49:04] Uh, obviously the fatality accident here in DCA as well. So, um, I wanted to ask you, Captain,
[1:49:12] uh, Ambrosie, that, um, what capacity do you see? I mean, to me, there's efficiency tools and it's great to have
[1:49:20] efficiency tools and the FAA needs to implement targeted initiatives to prevent runway incursions
[1:49:25] and address risks in the airport environment. But, um, is this SMART system going to give us
[1:49:32] all that we need when we're seeing these increased rates of close calls on runway incursions?
[1:49:37] I just specifically thank you for your question, Senator. And first, thank you for your leadership
[1:49:42] on, on Rotor and the, uh, and, and pushing forward for aviation safety. Uh, as far as the SMART system goes,
[1:49:49] we all want something to help efficiency. Flying more passengers is a good thing. Getting more people
[1:49:54] to their destination every day safely is essential. But there is no silver bullet. AI can't replace the,
[1:50:00] the decision-making of, of a human. Any, any AI or any program like that should still, any decision
[1:50:06] made should rely on an air traffic controller and the pilots and the people that are, that are out there
[1:50:10] on the, on the front line. And it can't be a replacement for safety initiatives like, uh, like the
[1:50:17] initiatives in the, in the Rotor Act. Because it, it certainly is not going to suddenly say,
[1:50:21] yep, do this and we'll, we won't have any more runway incursions. That's just not going to happen.
[1:50:25] Well, I just wanted, I'm not saying that that is what the FAA is saying per se, but I'm just pointing
[1:50:30] out that, uh, the, this announcement coinciding with this, um, hearing, I just wanted to make sure that
[1:50:36] we're making this fine point. Because that doesn't do anything for the air traffic controller sitting
[1:50:42] in looking at what are possible incursion conflicts on, uh, planes landing and what's on the runway.
[1:50:49] Is that correct? Uh, that's correct. Again, um, the future of, of surface, uh, traffic avoidance
[1:50:56] is ADS-BN through a SURF-IA initiatives and things like that. And, you know, through the Rotor,
[1:51:01] we're trying to get ADS-BN on the flight deck displays right now. So, you know, that sounds like
[1:51:06] a good compliment for the future because that, that technology is going to be needed anyway.
[1:51:09] Right. And so how do you think we get that message out? I'm not saying somebody is trying to confuse
[1:51:13] us, but it is confusing. And so the point is, it is not a substitute for the Rotor Act. It is not a
[1:51:20] substitute to fixing air traffic controller staffing. It is not a substitute for this near-miss technology
[1:51:26] that is needed both in the sky and on the ground. So how do you suggest- You have our commitment to
[1:51:32] continue, uh, keeping our foot on the gas to make sure that message is loud and clear along with yours.
[1:51:38] So do you think that would be better for the consuming public to understand this as a, um, almost
[1:51:46] like a list of improvements that need to be made so that the whole system, uh, continues to function
[1:51:52] as necessary? I mean, I, I have a belief that what's affecting us now, particularly now, is that, um,
[1:52:01] these 2018, 2019 levels succeeding them. So we had COVID and we then returned and are growing past that.
[1:52:13] My belief is that our system is showing that it is at capacity beyond capacity in this context of like
[1:52:20] the level of, but you know, I'm from Seattle right now and Seattle's just building, building, building and
[1:52:26] booming, booming, booming. So maybe that's a Seattle feeling that we have. But to me, I think this is
[1:52:32] the type of inventory we need the FAA to do and then tell us a list of infrastructure that solved the
[1:52:39] problems that we are seeing now because the incidents we just saw in Boston is just another reminder,
[1:52:45] is it not? It is. It's an all the above approach, right? Um, you know, proud to be with these gentlemen
[1:52:51] here where we're all part of the modern skies coalition and saying, we have to fix ATC. We
[1:52:56] need to get it modernized. We need to spend the money. There's been a lot of discussion here today
[1:53:00] about allocating more resources to, to get air traffic control right. That needs to happen,
[1:53:05] but not at the expense of other important things like, you know, collision avoidance technology on
[1:53:10] our aircraft, on the ground, everything else. We can't grow the system if we don't modernize the system.
[1:53:15] Well, I'd appreciate it from the pilots association if there was a list like this
[1:53:20] of infrastructure investment that you think is necessary to return us to the safety standard.
[1:53:24] That would be great. Governor Sununu, why is it important that military operators are be held to
[1:53:30] the same accountability as everyone else in the national airspace? And is A4A's view that more could
[1:53:39] be done to better enforce federal aviation regulations applying to military operations?
[1:53:44] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'll reference a little bit what I spoke with Senator Duckworth about.
[1:53:49] Every, as I would call it, a blip in the air is a risk, right? Whether it's an unmanned vehicle,
[1:53:56] whether it's military, whether it's general aviation, or whether it's a commercial jet,
[1:54:00] that there's a risk for collision there. So why even the military would want their own pilots
[1:54:05] flying around an airport and not telling anybody where they are is beyond me. You have to close those
[1:54:10] loopholes. If you're in an active military operation overseas, of course you don't want to tell
[1:54:14] people where they are. That is not what is happening around DCA. That is not what's happening around
[1:54:18] Seattle. It's not what's happening on any of our commercial airports here in the U.S. So
[1:54:25] it does nothing but help the system to make sure that every piece of equipment in the air is
[1:54:31] accounted for and from a technology standpoint so that the system is... I mean, the national aviation
[1:54:36] system is effectively a telecommunication system at its core, right? Well, what's the point of that if
[1:54:42] someone isn't listening or someone isn't talking? So the technology needs to be there, it needs to be
[1:54:46] certified, and it needs to be turned on. Well, I think in the era of digitization, we're saying that
[1:54:51] you can digitize. And one of the issues, the reason why I became acutely interested, let's just say,
[1:55:00] is when a worker stole a plane at SeaTac and was able to get it up in the air. And so when you think
[1:55:08] about the ground operations, you'd like to know where everything is at every moment. And that is
[1:55:14] what technology can do for you. In that case, the air traffic controller should have realized that that
[1:55:19] plane was not even supposed to be moving, let alone... I don't know. I can't remember now the details
[1:55:27] whether they actually cleared him or they were yelling at the time that he took off to stop. But the details
[1:55:33] are that that is what we need. That is what we can what we can do at this point. We can know where
[1:55:39] every piece of equipment is on the ground. And we can have alert systems that basically help air traffic
[1:55:45] controllers. But we aren't we we we need that technology. And so we need that. And we need the
[1:55:53] the Rotaract. So that's right. So if anybody else has anything to to say about those priorities,
[1:56:00] Mr. Biola, are up to Lee? No. Yeah, I think well said that all the above, anything we can do to
[1:56:09] increase safety and knowing where the other vehicles are, where the other aircraft are, are certainly
[1:56:16] accepted. So anything we can do again with the ADSB in, we're in favor of. Thank you. Well, Mr.
[1:56:23] Chairman, you know, we do. We all as this committee has to work very closely with our house colleagues
[1:56:28] and get that over the goal line. So thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Cantwell, thank you for joining us.
[1:56:33] Thank you to you and to Senator Cruz, Chairman Cruz and you for your support and your attendance.
[1:56:41] See the value in your subcommittee's work on aviation work. Honored that you're here.
[1:56:48] It's my usual practice to ask the witnesses if they said anything they wish they hadn't,
[1:56:53] that they'd like to correct. And and or something that we missed that you wish you would have had the
[1:57:00] opportunity to say. Anybody want to add anything to the knowledge base of the members of this committee?
[1:57:07] Well, as part of the Manufacturing Association, you know, when I talked about ADSBN, certainly in favor
[1:57:13] of it, there are going to be some difficult solutions for some of the aircraft out there.
[1:57:17] So that's something we'd like to work closely with the staff as we get these final bills in place.
[1:57:23] We're good. Thank you all for being here. Thanks for your testimony.
[1:57:28] I would join my colleagues in the remembrance of those that who are represented here by family members
[1:57:35] and those who have lost loved ones. A particular remembrance for me is the January 29th departure
[1:57:42] from Wichita, Kansas and the 67 lives that were lost to all families in all circumstances. We express
[1:57:50] our condolences and sympathies and recommit ourselves to doing the things that are necessary,
[1:57:55] that your efforts on their behalf are rewarded with fewer and ultimately no accidents and no deaths.
[1:58:04] That's the goal of this subcommittee and certainly the efforts that I have as its chairman.
[1:58:09] Thanks. Thank you to our witnesses. Senators will have until the close of business on June the 30th to submit
[1:58:15] questions for the record. The witnesses will have until the close of business on July the 14th to respond to those questions.
[1:58:20] I originally thought it said July the 4th, July the 14th to respond. So what that means is that members of
[1:58:28] our committee may submit written questions to you and then you have until that date to provide us with your answers.
[1:58:33] This concludes today's hearing and we stand adjourned.