Sanctuary City Policies Are Probed By Senate Judiciary Committee

[40:35] of the Senate Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on the Constitution to Order. Thank you all for [40:40] being here. Today's topic is protecting American citizenship to federalism, sanctuary cities, [40:46] and the rule of law. This topic is unfortunately timely as Americans have been inundated in recent [40:52] weeks with stories of fellow Americans victimized by criminal illegal aliens who've been shielded [40:57] by these sanctuary jurisdictions. I'll start with my opening statement and then my friend [41:06] and ranking member Welsh will give his opening remarks. Senator Cornyn will have remarks and then [41:11] Senator Durbin's here. He will after that and we'll swear everybody in and go down the line. [41:17] There are moments when a policy debate stops being a policy debate, when all the abstractions [41:22] fall away, when all the buzzwords and talking points and legal jargon fall away. And what we're [41:29] left with is a very simple question about the first duty of government. Sanctuary policies [41:34] force this question because this is not really about federalism. It's not really about local [41:39] control. [41:40] And it certainly isn't about compassion. It's about who comes first, the American citizen [41:45] or the illegal alien. And sanctuary jurisdictions have answered that question. They've answered [41:52] it with their laws. They've answered it with their policies. They've answered it with their [41:55] conduct. They put the illegal alien first. That is what a sanctuary policy means in the [42:02] real world. An illegal alien commits a crime and gets arrested by local law enforcement. [42:07] That arrest tells government exactly where the person is. Federal immigration authorities [42:14] then make a very simple request. Let us know when this person is being released so that [42:19] we can take him into custody and begin the removal proceedings. That is not some extraordinary [42:25] burden. That is not a constitutional crisis. That is not conscription. That is basic cooperation. [42:31] It's the kind of coordination that happens every single day between state, local and [42:37] federal law enforcement in every other context. And yet when the subject is immigration, sanctuary [42:43] jurisdictions refuse. [42:45] They withhold money. They withhold money. They withhold money. They withhold money. They withhold money. They withhold money. They withhold money. They withhold money. [42:46] They withhold money. They withhold money. They withhold money. They withhold money. They withhold their information. [42:47] They block the transfer. They release the alien. And then they send the alien back into [42:52] the community. That is a choice — a very deliberate choice. And it's a choice that [42:57] gets people hurt. Sometimes, it gets people killed. [43:02] The defenders of these policies always want to keep this debate at a level of theory. [43:07] They want to talk about values and discretion and trust and constitutional structure. They [43:11] never want to talk about the consequences. But the consequences are the story. The consequences [43:17] look like Lake & Riley. [43:20] by an illegal alien who had already had encounters with law enforcement and was [43:24] still turned loose in a system that puts ideology ahead of public safety. The [43:29] consequences look like Stephanie Minter, an American mother whose killer was [43:35] shielded by Fairfax County's sanctuary policies. The [43:40] consequences look like Sheridan Gorman, an 18 year old college student in [43:45] Chicago, shot in the back while walking with friends by an illegal alien who had [43:51] already been caught at the border, released, arrested again, then released [43:56] again. They look like Katie Abraham, a young woman in Illinois killed by an [44:02] illegal immigrant drunk driver who had already been deported once, re-entered [44:07] the country, and evaded the laws thanks to sanctuary policies. These are [44:12] not freak accidents. They're not acts of God. There are foreseeable consequences [44:18] of public officials making a conscious decision to obstruct immigration [44:23] enforcement, [44:23] and release people who should never have been released back onto the streets in [44:27] the first place. And then, after it happens, the same people who made those [44:33] choices hide behind the language of principle. Let's be honest about that. The [44:38] anti-commandeering doctrine is not a suicide pact. It does not require local [44:43] officials to sabotage federal law enforcement. It does not [44:47] require them to conceal release dates. It does not require them to dump [44:52] removable criminal aliens back into the public and pretend their hands were tied. [44:56] This is not constitutional fidelity. This is political evasion. It is taking a [45:04] theory meant to protect the balance of our system and using it to cover for [45:08] lawlessness, because that's what sanctuary policy really is—lawlessness [45:13] dressed up as principle. It says federal immigration law can be ignored. It says [45:19] cooperation is optional. It says the safety of the American people comes second to [45:23] an ideological project... and that brings us back to the question at the center of this hearing... [45:30] first the American citizen trying to raise a family go to school walk home [45:36] safely and live in peace or the illegal alien who has no right to be here and in [45:42] many of these cases has already shown he's a danger to the public sanctuary [45:46] policies answer that very question every single time every time they refuse to [45:51] notify ice every time they refuse to honor a detainer every time they were [45:55] they release a removable criminal alien instead of coordinating a transfer every [46:00] time they treat immigration law as some optional suggestion instead of the law [46:04] of the United States of America and every single time their answer is the [46:08] same the illegal alien comes first not Lake and Riley not Stephanie mentor not [46:15] Sheridan Gorman not Katie Abraham the illegal alien mr. Abraham said it [46:22] plainly in his op-ed my daughter Katie was killed by a man who should never [46:27] have been here and he was right policies that predictably create victims are not [46:34] moral no matter how compassionately [46:36] the politicians describe them an empty chair remains at the family's table more [46:43] empty chairs will appear at more family tables unless we end this madness I [46:48] understand that it is uncomfortable for some of my friends on the other side to [46:52] confront the reality that their sanctuary policies and open border [46:56] ideology and are producing preventable crimes against American [47:02] citizens but we must confront it sanctuary policies are getting American [47:07] citizens killed the American people know it and deep [47:10] Democrats know it the path forward is not complicated it does not require new [47:16] theories or sweeping innovations it requires nothing more than restoring the [47:20] most basic principle of government that American citizens come first state and [47:25] local government should cooperate with federal immigration enforcement allow [47:28] federal government to do its job to port criminal illegal aliens prioritize the [47:33] safety of American citizens over the demands of a radical ideology that is [47:37] not extreme that is common sense at its core this [47:41] hearing turns on a simple question when the choice is presented alert federal [47:47] immigration authorities and protect the community or release the illegal alien [47:51] who comes first the American citizens should come first every single time [47:55] Lake and Riley Stephanie mentor Sheridan Gorman Katie Abraham they should come [48:00] first the American people have already answered that question it's time for [48:04] Congress to insist on the same turn over now to Senator Welch thank you very much [48:10] mr. chairman I want to thank the witnesses and we've got [48:13] tremendous witnesses here today on this incredibly important topic I do agree [48:18] with you that public safety is absolutely essential and comes first and [48:22] it's the first obligation of government we've got some law enforcement people [48:26] who are here and are going to be testifying about the so-called [48:30] sanctuary city policy and how it weighs in you know the assertion here is that [48:36] the state and local law enforcement should be assisting you know in the [48:41] immigration policy of the president [48:43] and when I say that I mean the state and local law enforcement [48:46] because I've seen that said by Stephen Miller and that includes right now a [48:51] approach towards mass roundups that assertion is wrong our local law [48:57] enforcement agencies have an extraordinary responsibility to protect [49:02] the citizens in the communities they serve they are not there to be an adjunct [49:08] to implement a policy of the president particularly as to mass deportation we [49:14] we've made real progress. The border is secure. And Mr. Chairman, don't tell the president I said [49:19] this, but he deserves some credit for that. We're going to keep that on the down low. [49:24] We also agreed that we should be deporting violent criminals. That's there. Where we are having a [49:33] dispute is the policy implemented by ICE of mass deportation in roundups. Number one, [49:41] it's claimed that we're going after the worst of the worst, but only 14% of immigration arrests [49:48] are for violent criminals. Instead, in order to meet what have been quotas demanded by Mr. Miller, [49:55] immigration agencies are raiding farms and factories, schools and hospitals. This is wrong, [50:01] and it doesn't make us more safe. And in fact, it's creating difficulties for local law enforcement [50:06] to meet their obligation to their own citizens. And our communities around [50:11] the country are reeling from the harm of that, which is, from my point of view, what we saw in [50:16] Minneapolis, a rampage. The Department of Homeland Security has really caused a lot of incredible [50:24] harm, avoidable harm in our communities. So our law enforcement agencies, including in Vermont, [50:31] we had an incident last week, or two weeks ago, where the ICE agents from Boston came to Vermont [50:40] to arrest Abel. [50:41] They did not notify local law enforcement. They didn't even notify Vermont ICE. And then got into [50:52] a confrontation where local law enforcement really had to keep the peace. And there was [50:58] literally no communication or cooperation from ICE. And our law enforcement folks were shocked [51:05] at the lack of communication, which is such an essential component of how our law enforcement [51:11] agencies work together to keep the peace. And so we're going to have to keep the peace. [51:13] And of course, we saw it in Minneapolis. And one of the police chiefs in Minneapolis, or the police chief [51:21] in Minneapolis said, we cannot let people in our communities think that our local law enforcement [51:26] leadership is okay with actions that are not only wrong, but illegal. So Mr. President, there's a question [51:34] here. Local law enforcement has an obligation for local public safety. Their job is not to be an adjunct [51:43] to ICE. [51:44] That's not their job. And it's particularly difficult when we have an ICE that time and time again has [51:51] overreached, has exceeded its authority, has acted in a way that demonstrates a lack of training. [52:00] And a lot of us have been insisting that ICE have the same training and same obligations to their [52:07] responsibilities as every law enforcement agency in this country has. It's a hard job, law [52:14] enforcement, to be an adjunct to ICE. It's a hard job to be an adjunct to ICE. It's a hard job to be an adjunct to ICE. [52:14] It's a hard job to be an adjunct to ICE. It's a hard job to be an adjunct to ICE. It's a hard job to be an adjunct to ICE. [52:15] It's a hard job to be an adjunct to ICE. It takes aggression. It takes restraint. It takes judgment. [52:19] It takes an immense amount of emotional self-control. And we're all totally devoted to the people [52:25] who protect us. But it's the job of the local law enforcement to protect the citizens in their communities. [52:33] And it is not just an abstraction, Mr. Chairman. As Justice Scalia and Justice Alito indicated, the [52:41] Tenth Amendment guarantees that the federal government cannot force a law enforcement agency into the [52:44] for state and local governments [52:46] to assist in enforcing federal law. [52:49] And this is about protecting the right of local communities [52:53] to protect local communities. [52:56] Our state and local law enforcement people [52:59] have a strong and a very valid interest [53:01] in directing their own personnel and resources [53:03] towards the issues their communities care about most. [53:07] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [53:08] I look forward to this hearing. [53:10] Thank you, Senator. [53:11] Senator Cornyn. [53:12] Thank you, Chairman Schmidt, [53:13] for allowing me the opportunity to make [53:15] a brief opening statement. [53:17] Just this past weekend, once again, [53:19] we heard about another illegal alien [53:22] in the sanctuary city of Chicago, Jose Medina Medina, [53:26] killing an innocent Loyola college student, [53:28] Sheridan Gorman. [53:30] No parent should ever have to go through [53:33] what her family has had to go through [53:36] or what Mr. Abraham's family has had to go through. [53:40] But what's even more devastating is the attitude [53:44] of everybody from the governor on down [53:46] that they have no responsibility whatsoever [53:50] to deal with public safety threats. [53:54] They seem deaf to the cries of many angel families [53:57] who needlessly lost children and loved ones. [54:01] Joe Abraham's daughter, Katie, [54:03] was killed last year in Illinois [54:04] after an illegal alien drunk driver [54:07] caused a hit and run accident that took her life. [54:11] And what did the leaders of Illinois, [54:12] like the governor and others, [54:14] have to say to Mr. Abraham and his family? [54:20] Nothing. [54:25] The Abraham's death and Sheridan Gorman's death [54:27] likely could have been prevented [54:29] if sanctuary cities and states like Chicago, Illinois [54:33] would cooperate with ICE. [54:36] Now, it's an interesting argument [54:37] that local law enforcement bears no responsibility [54:40] to help assist in the public safety mission [54:44] when it involves federal authorities. [54:47] There's no law that requires that. [54:51] In fact, our brave men and women [54:55] who wear the uniform of local and state law enforcement, [54:59] are dedicated to public safety. [55:02] But how they can stand by [55:03] because the politicians in those jurisdictions [55:06] simply say you cannot assist federal law enforcement [55:10] is something that I will never understand. [55:14] We hear story after story of innocent individuals [55:16] who are being harmed by criminal aliens [55:19] who've been released back into the community [55:20] by sanctuary jurisdictions. [55:23] And many times, often, [55:26] these criminals offend over and over again. [55:31] So who do these [55:32] sanctuary policies protect? [55:33] Certainly not U.S. citizens, [55:35] not the local communities where they reside [55:39] or they happen to commit their offenses, [55:43] or even aliens who followed the law [55:46] and came to the United States legally. [55:49] In fact, many of the victims of the crimes [55:54] committed by illegal aliens [55:55] are people in our minority communities. [56:00] The reality is that sanctuary policies [56:02] only protect the wrongdoers, the criminals. [56:06] According to a recent Harvard-Harris post, [56:08] 75% of the American population [56:10] supports deporting people who are not legally authorized [56:14] to stay here in the United States, [56:17] and particularly criminal aliens. [56:19] So why is it so difficult for our Democratic colleagues [56:22] to stand with the American people? [56:25] Again, 75% in polls say they support the deporting of people [56:29] who shouldn't be here in the first place. [56:32] Why is it that our Democratic colleagues find it so hard [56:35] to simply support enforcement of a law [56:39] that Congress has passed? [56:42] Perhaps it's because they're too, you know, [56:43] beholden to radical progressive members of their political base, or perhaps they [56:49] just can't shake Trump derangement syndrome. Look at the Lake and Riley Act, [56:56] the first bill that was passed out of the Senate and was signed into law by [56:59] President Trump. Even though the act clearly targeted some of the worst of [57:04] the worst criminal aliens, including those who assault law enforcement [57:08] officers or cause serious bodily harm or death to another individual, 33 Democrats [57:14] and two independents voted against that legislation. As border czar Tom [57:22] Homan has stated time and time again, ICE and Customs and Border Protection would [57:26] never need to go into the communities like they did in Minneapolis, where the [57:31] two tragic deaths occurred of individuals who determined that they [57:37] wanted to interfere with a law enforcement operation. That would never [57:40] occur. If local communities would cooperate with ICE, honor their detainers, [57:45] and to see [57:48] individuals safely removed from the country and out of local jails. Taking [57:55] custody of a criminal alien at jail is far, far safer and better than putting [58:00] our law enforcement and the community at large at risk. Instead of trying to [58:05] defund ICE, which now our Democratic colleagues are in the process of doing [58:11] once again by refusing to fund the Department of Homeland Security, [58:15] including ICE, instead of trying to defund ICE, we need to fully fund ICE. [58:24] Or here's a concept legislators need to legislate. If we don't like the way that the laws are being enforced by our dedicated law enforcement officials, it's the policies we promulgated and passed into law. And those laws can be amended if there's sufficient justification for it, but in this instance, there is none. These laws need to be enforced. ICE and the Department of Homeland Security need to be fully funded in order to perform their critical missions, including identifying and enforcing the laws that are being enforced by our dedicated law enforcement officials. [58:57] identifying, detaining, and removing criminal aliens and terrorists, yes, even terrorists, [59:04] from the country. [59:06] Finally, I'd note, according to a list of sanctuary jurisdictions put out by the Department [59:11] of Justice last year, there are only 11 states and the District of Columbia that are considered [59:17] sanctuary jurisdictions. [59:18] And not surprisingly, most of them are run by Democrat governors or mayors. [59:24] There is no good reason for these states to be out of step with what most Americans support, [59:30] which is immigration enforcement, particularly when it comes to criminal aliens. [59:35] We should also not be funneling any federal dollars to any state or any locality that [59:42] continue to protect criminal aliens over American citizens and other law-abiding immigrants [59:48] as well. [59:49] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [59:50] Thank you, Senator. [59:51] Senator Durbin. [59:54] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [59:57] Last week, a federal government official said that the United States should not be [59:59] charged with murder. [1:00:00] A few miles from my place in Chicago, Sheridan Gorman, an 18-year-old student at Loyola University, [1:00:07] was tragically murdered. [1:00:10] My heart goes out to her family, friends, and faculty and students at Loyola who are [1:00:14] literally grieving this loss of Sheridan today. [1:00:18] Jose Medina, a Venezuelan national who arrived in the United States in 2023, has been charged [1:00:24] with her murder. [1:00:27] Medina was arrested in 2023 for shoplifting. [1:00:32] He did not appear for his hearing. [1:00:33] So a bench warrant was issued for his arrest. [1:00:37] This information was available to the federal government, but Medina was not detained by [1:00:42] ICE during the Biden administration or the Trump administration. [1:00:47] This committee is the right place to have a serious, bipartisan conversation about how [1:00:53] to prevent further tragedies like this. [1:00:56] I'm sorry that the Department of Homeland Security and some Republican members of this [1:01:00] committee have decided this is going to be a political free-for-all. [1:01:05] Our broken immigration system is in danger. [1:01:06] Thank you. [1:01:07] We have a desperate need for a bipartisan reform. [1:01:12] We need order at our border. [1:01:14] I've said this repeatedly, I'll say it again, we should never knowingly allow a dangerous [1:01:19] person to come into this country. [1:01:22] If someone is in this country seeking citizenship or legal status and commits a serious crime, [1:01:27] they should be deported immediately. [1:01:29] Let's start there. [1:01:31] Is that a good bipartisan start? [1:01:33] I hope so. [1:01:34] President Trump campaigned on the promise that he would go after the worst of the worst. [1:01:39] The rapists. [1:01:40] Murderers. [1:01:41] criminally insane, and other dangerous individuals. What does the record show [1:01:46] for his ICE efforts to date? Six out of the seven people who have been detained, [1:01:52] arrested, some deported, were not violent criminals at all. They had virtually no [1:02:00] criminal record. Frankly, they were in a situation where there was no reason to [1:02:05] stop them. Six out of seven. So much for the accuracy of ICE's effort. The reality [1:02:12] is that neither the Democrat or Republican administrations have [1:02:15] delivered on promises made, and President Trump's mass, reckless mass [1:02:20] deportation campaign has not made us safer. Congress needs to step up and do [1:02:26] our job, fix our broken immigration system. Some of the speeches you've [1:02:31] already heard in this room were given by individuals who had a chance to vote for [1:02:35] bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform and voted no. For years I worked [1:02:41] on a bipartisan basis. There were eight of us, 12 years ago, led by Senator John [1:02:46] McCain, Chuck Schumer, myself, Lindsey Graham, [1:02:50] Marco Rubio, some familiar names. We worked for months to put together a [1:02:55] comprehensive plan, and we prepared and submitted in 2013 to the Congress. What [1:03:02] did it do, this bipartisan plan? It secured our border with more resources [1:03:08] than ever so that dangerous individuals couldn't enter our country. [1:03:12] It required strict vetting and tracking of all legal [1:03:17] immigrants when they entered. Now, listen to this. It required all undocumented [1:03:22] immigrants to register with the government and pass a background check. Those who posed any [1:03:29] threat would be subject to deportation. Others would pay a fine and taxes, go to the back of [1:03:34] the line behind legal immigrants, and work towards citizenship over time. That bill passed the United [1:03:41] States Senate with over 60 votes. Unfortunately, the Republican House of Representatives refused [1:03:48] to even consider it. They didn't bring it up for a debate or discussion. We need to try again. [1:03:54] We can continue to have these hearings and end up with nothing other than political rhetoric. [1:04:01] Sadly, even our best efforts on a bipartisan basis won't bring back the victims like Sheridan, [1:04:08] but we can honor their memory by absolutely working together in a good faith effort [1:04:13] to prevent the tragedies like this in the future. I'm ready to try again. [1:04:19] Mr. Chairman, may I respond briefly? You weren't here when 2013 when this bill was on the floor, [1:04:25] and I was, and so he could only... [1:04:27] He could only be referring to me. So I'm a little sick and tired of hearing our colleagues talk [1:04:33] about a failed piece of legislation as somehow a panacea. I bet that's cold comfort to Mr. Abraham [1:04:39] and other families who've lost loved ones, because criminal aliens are here in the United States, [1:04:46] thanks to four years of Biden open border policies, and are preying on innocent American citizens. [1:04:52] And our colleagues say, well, we should have passed a bipartisan immigration law back in 2013, [1:04:58] while the president was in office. I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true. I don't [1:04:58] think that's true. I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true. [1:04:58] At the same time, they refused to fund immigration enforcement. [1:05:02] We should now. [1:05:03] Too much. [1:05:04] Okay, we're going to swear on the witnesses. It is the tradition of this committee to swear on all [1:05:09] the witnesses who testified before. Would you please stand and raise your right hand? [1:05:15] I swear that the testimony you're about to give to this committee is the truth, [1:05:18] the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God. Thank you. [1:05:21] Okay, I will introduce the majority of witnesses. You're going to introduce them. [1:05:28] First up is Jason Mieris. I know him well. He served as the 48th Attorney General, [1:05:36] of the commonwealth of virginia from 2022 to 2026 he's now a partner at the torridon law at torridon [1:05:43] law under his leadership virginia recorded a 30 reduction in murders and double-digit decline [1:05:49] and violent and overall violent crime coinciding with the launch of a public safety strategy [1:05:53] targeting repeat violent offenders and directing resources to affected communities he's a proud [1:06:00] husband and father of three and we welcome him to the committee jessica vaughn is the director [1:06:07] of policy studies at the center for immigration studies where she has worked since 1992. she's [1:06:12] an expert on immigration policy and operations including visa programs immigration benefits [1:06:17] and immigration enforcement and public safety vaughn has testified before congress dozens of [1:06:21] times including both before the u.s house of representatives and the senate before joining [1:06:26] the center she was a foreign service officer with the state department she has a master's degree [1:06:31] from georgetown and she's a senior civil service officer in the state department she has a master's [1:06:32] university and a bachelor's degree from washington college in maryland mr abraham who's here joe [1:06:37] abraham is a lifelong illinois resident husband and father of three a corporate finance professional [1:06:43] at a fortune 50 company he's dedicated his life to his family and his community joe is the father [1:06:49] of katie who was killed by a drunk driving illegal alien in january of 2025. since her death he has [1:06:56] spoken on national media including fox news and published multiple op-eds to raise awareness about [1:07:00] the impact of current policies and policies that affect the lives of people with disabilities [1:07:01] of current policies on families like his uh thank you we have sheriff clarence burkhead [1:07:09] who has been in law enforcement for 41 years in north carolina and sheriff is an elected position [1:07:17] and he got a modest 86 percent of the vote better than you he's pretty good i gotta say but uh he [1:07:25] has been he started out as a as a new uh deputy sheriff and uh one county he has been spectacular in [1:07:33] his career he was the leader of law enforcement at duke university and now he is the elected [1:07:39] sheriff of durham county and has incredible experience in what it takes to do good law [1:07:45] enforcement what it takes to cooperate with other agencies including federal agencies and we're [1:07:50] delighted uh sheriff to have you here and we also have a stephen vladic who's a well-known [1:07:57] and frequent witness here professor georgetown university [1:08:03] uh law center where he's recognized for his expertise on federal courts the supreme court [1:08:09] national security and uh the author of a best-selling book the shadow docket and how the [1:08:15] supreme court uses stealth rulings to amass power and undermine the republic i also really respect [1:08:22] that he's just a beloved teacher he pays attention to his students and he's won many awards which i [1:08:31] won't go through but i want to express my gratitude to sheriff clarence burkhead who has been an [1:08:33] important part of my life and i want to express to you my gratitude that you're here again [1:08:35] on your time uh thank you very much mr chairman thank you and we'll recognize now the witnesses [1:08:40] for their opening statement we'll go left to right we'll start with you jason senator i have [1:08:53] trouble operating heavy equipment so i apologize for that thank you stephanie was 41 years old [1:09:02] a mother from fredericksburg virginia her family described her as a beam of light in dark places [1:09:07] and on february 23rd of this year stephanie was standing at a bus stop in fairfax county [1:09:12] where she was stabbed to death her killer had been arrested more than 30 [1:09:16] times and he was in this country illegally a federal judge had ordered his final removal [1:09:22] six years ago an ice attainer was lodged in fairfax county refused to honor it the police [1:09:28] warned the prosecutor in writing repeatedly that this man was a ticking time bomb a menace and would [1:09:34] kill someone the police were right stephanie mentor did not have to die and that is why i'm [1:09:40] here today but i need this committee to understand something critical critical stephanie mentor is [1:09:46] not an isolated tragedy she is tragically the most recent and visible name in a documented pattern [1:09:51] of preventable harm to virginians a pattern with a common cause sanctuary policies in december of [1:09:57] 2025 a fairfax county man was shot and killed in his own home one day after an illegal immigrant [1:10:04] with seven prior charges including a prior murder charge was released from jail the ice detainer was [1:10:10] refused the charges were dropped he was free and a man was dead the victim could [1:10:16] have been spared with one simple phone call from fairfax authorities to ice as shocking as this [1:10:22] sounds it is that simple a quick phone call would have saved this man's life a woman was raped on [1:10:28] a popular walking trail in herndon virginia days after an illegal alien was released from jail early [1:10:34] by a prosecutor who had already reduced his felony assault charge without ever consulting police [1:10:40] a four-year-old girl was nearly abducted in the middle of the night by an illegal immigrant who [1:10:46] was arrested by a prosecutor progressively dismantled the charges over 18 months 18 months [1:10:51] down to a misdemeanor and then dropped them entirely when a judge rejected a plea deal was [1:10:56] inadequate a child predator was released early an illegal immigrant and offered roblox gaming [1:11:02] currency to children under the ages of 10 who had already been arrested for public sexual misconduct [1:11:08] this all happened in the same county with the same sheriff and the same prosecutor and the same [1:11:14] policy over and over again [1:11:16] is just a few miles away from here members of this committee this is not incompetence or coincidence [1:11:23] this is policy fairfax county commonwealth's attorney steve descano published this policy [1:11:28] on his own website and it says quote whenever possible steve will make charging and plea [1:11:34] decisions that limit or avoid immigration consequences this is a formal written policy [1:11:41] giving criminal illegal immigrants preferential treatment in our justice system it's not the [1:11:47] discretion it's discrimination discrimination against american citizens in favor of those who [1:11:53] are here illegally who then commit crimes because a citizen with 30 plus arrests would not have [1:11:59] gotten the same treatment as stephanie mentor's killer did a citizen who broke into a child's [1:12:04] bedroom would not have had charges reduced to a misdemeanor the law enforcement legal defense fund [1:12:09] has formally petitioned the department of justice to open a civil rights investigation to descano's [1:12:14] office arguing this policy violates the [1:12:17] equal protection clause of the 14th amendment they are right now let us be direct about the law [1:12:22] immigration is not a shared power with state and local and federal authorities it belongs exclusively [1:12:28] to the federal government under article 1 section 8. congress has the authority to establish a [1:12:33] uniform rule of naturalization and not what we're seeing today which is a patch or work of local [1:12:39] non-compliance what fairfax county is doing is exactly the opposite of what our framers intended [1:12:45] it's actually affirmative obstruction [1:12:47] fairfax county's police says because of the direction from their board of supervisors their [1:12:52] sheriff and also from their prosecutor that essentially you can release a man with 30 arrests [1:12:58] and a federal removal order from your jail rather than light let ice take them in this is not [1:13:03] non-cooperation it is a choice to put violent criminals back on the street now what works we [1:13:09] saw what works because virginia previously did it under governor yunkin's executive order 47 he [1:13:14] created a state immigration task force and the state immigration commission has the authority to [1:13:17] investigate criminal illegal immigrants within eight weeks working together 521 criminal illegal [1:13:21] immigrants were arrested including 113 gang members including the east coast leader of ms-13 living in [1:13:28] prince william county was captured we were referred to as a national model that has been taken away [1:13:33] from us by governor spanberger who has reversed governor yunkin's common sense policies and [1:13:38] actually has said even if you're a convicted felon sitting in a virginia prison you cannot cooperate [1:13:44] with ice and notify ice authorities that is uncomfortable for the state of virginia to do that [1:13:47] i served as virginia's attorney general because i believe government's first and foremost [1:13:51] fundamental duty is to protect the people its governs sanctuary policies represent a catastrophic [1:13:57] and willful failure of that duty virginians are paying the price stephanie mentor and her mother [1:14:03] cheryl are regrettable proof thank you mr chairman thank you mr burkhead chairman smith [1:14:12] ranking member welch and other distinguished members of the subcommittee on constitution [1:14:16] thank you for this opportunity to testify my name is clarence burkehead [1:14:21] sheriff of durham county north carolina and i believe that true public safety is built on a [1:14:25] foundation of trust between local law enforcement and the communities they serve throughout my [1:14:31] career in public service i have learned that for me to be successful as a law enforcement officer [1:14:36] i needed to secure the trust and support of the community recognizing the value of community trust [1:14:42] and strong relationships i have never wavered from this focus to remain public focus and community [1:14:50] oriented in my policing philosophy [1:14:52] this is one reason i joined recently and became the co-chair of law enforcement immigration task [1:14:58] force a nationwide group of law enforcement leaders committed to immigration reforms that [1:15:04] enhance public safety and community trust in my experience as police chief and sheriff i have [1:15:10] found that leaders at local level know their communities well and are focused on ensuring [1:15:15] public safety local law enforcement leaders are solely responsible for prioritizing enforcement [1:15:21] against threats in the public manner to ensure public safety and community trust in the community [1:15:23] that builds trust and maintains community given this i believe that federalism principles are best [1:15:31] upheld when local jurisdictions are not impeded in determining how their limited resources can [1:15:37] effectively protect their residents effective policing is impossible without cooperation [1:15:44] with the public in my opinion when local law enforcement is perceived as an extension [1:15:49] of federal immigration authorities the trust will be we all work to secure and maintain [1:15:55] the humiliation of local law enforcement leaders when they find this traveling [1:15:59] through our communities so that they are the testimony in the news and in our communities [1:16:03] i'm again a struggle with the brutal security that we claim is taking place in our communities [1:16:08] the government is developing a platform to provide safe immigrants that are safe to use [1:16:13] in those communities the federal government isíem's advocacy is still a priority to [1:16:25] Law enforcement's ability to solve crimes is diminished, making all of our communities [1:16:30] less safe. [1:16:32] Our nation is facing long-standing and complex immigration issues that Congress and federal [1:16:37] agencies have been trying to solve for decades. [1:16:41] Some policymakers have sought to mandate that state and local law enforcement take on new [1:16:46] immigration enforcement responsibilities. [1:16:48] However, the Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the federal government cannot commandeer [1:16:54] state and local officials to carry out federal regulatory programs. [1:17:00] Federalism requires the respect of local law enforcement functions. [1:17:06] The term sanctuary city, the subject of this hearing, has not been defined in federal legislation. [1:17:13] The absence of clarity over this term's meaning often obscures more than illuminates. [1:17:19] Durham County is not a sanctuary county. [1:17:22] We follow state and local law, including presenting detainers to state judicial [1:17:27] officials for review and following any related court orders issued. [1:17:32] If ordered by magistrates or judges to hold an individual for 48 hours, we do so. [1:17:37] And we also notify ICE and give them the opportunity to seize that individual. [1:17:43] As required by state law, we notify ICE once again when the 48-hour clock starts. [1:17:49] As a law enforcement leader who must answer to voters, I prioritize local law enforcement [1:17:54] and public safety above all else. [1:17:57] I determine whether or not they are safe. [1:17:58] I am not to participate in the voluntary 287G program or which federal law enforcement [1:18:04] task force my deputies are assigned to, with the goal being to advance community trust [1:18:11] and public safety. [1:18:12] This also means that I work to ensure that the Durham County Sheriff's Office upholds [1:18:17] core state and federal constitutional principles, including ensuring individuals' rights, due [1:18:23] process and civil liberties are protected. [1:18:27] Board of Czar Tom Holman laid out immigration enforcement rules for federal law enforcement [1:18:30] and state law enforcement. [1:18:31] The rule of law does not require us to turn our local police officers or deputy sheriffs [1:18:51] into immigration agents. [1:18:53] It requires us to respect the expertise and autonomy of sheriffs in our cities and jurisdictions, [1:18:59] and let us serve. [1:19:00] We must serve as the professionals that we are. [1:19:03] We all want to identify and apprehend violent offenders, especially those committing violent [1:19:07] crimes, regardless of their immigration status. [1:19:11] In that spirit of respect, I urge this subcommittee to support policies that empower local law [1:19:16] enforcement to build bridges, not barriers. [1:19:19] I look forward to your questions. [1:19:20] Thank you. [1:19:21] Thank you, sir. [1:19:22] Ms. Fawn. [1:19:24] Good afternoon and thank you. [1:19:26] Again this week, we have witnessed a tragic consequence of sanctuary policies, this time [1:19:30] in Chicago. [1:19:31] The senseless killing of Sheridan Gorman by an illegal alien who apparently made a beeline [1:19:37] for Chicago, where he had protection from immigration enforcement, even after being [1:19:41] arrested within months of arriving. [1:19:44] In this sanctuary state, he also potentially had access to a driver's license, illegal [1:19:49] employment, and maybe even taxpayer-funded health care, nutrition assistance, and education. [1:19:55] More than half of all illegal aliens live in jurisdictions like Chicago, with policies [1:20:00] that deliberately hinder immigration. [1:20:01] Thank you. [1:20:02] And I encourage all of you to listen to this podcast and to follow the [1:20:16] conversation at ProHouseLaw.com. [1:20:20] Thank you. [1:20:21] All right. [1:20:23] We are going to turn it over to Ms. Hu. [1:20:28] Thanks so much. [1:20:31] They claim that the federal government is trying to force local authorities to do the [1:20:35] work of ICE, when in reality, it is usually the local politicians that are prohibiting [1:20:42] local law enforcement agencies from doing their job, which includes preventing crimes [1:20:47] and taking criminals off the streets, and if needed, communicating with fellow law enforcement [1:20:52] agencies to do that. [1:20:54] They claim that cooperation with ICE is a major distraction to local police, when actually [1:21:00] it just takes minutes to phone ICE or other communication, for example, about a deportable [1:21:06] inmate's release. [1:21:08] They claim that it drains local resources to cooperate with ICE, when in reality it [1:21:12] costs just a few dollars to honor a detainer, according to sheriffs who know. [1:21:17] And generally speaking, enforcing immigration law is a bargain for taxpayers. [1:21:23] The average cost of a deportation, $17,000, is much less than the cost of allowing an [1:21:29] illegal alien to stay. [1:21:30] That is about $65,000 over their lifetime, according to the National Academy of Sciences. [1:21:38] They claim that sanctuary policies are needed to build trust with all immigrants, so they [1:21:42] feel comfortable reporting crimes. [1:21:44] In fact, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, immigrants, including illegal [1:21:49] immigrants, historically report crimes at the same or higher rates as Americans. [1:21:55] And the parts of the country where sanctuary jurisdictions are prevalent do not have higher [1:21:59] immigrant crime reporting rates. [1:22:01] The truth is that sanctuary policies are an irrational political response based on [1:22:10] a disagreement with federal immigration policy and opposition to enforcement of immigration [1:22:15] laws. [1:22:17] While the motivations are ideological and political, unfortunately, the costs of sanctuary [1:22:22] policies are very tangible. [1:22:25] From October 2022 to February 2025, jails in sanctuary jurisdictions declined more than [1:22:31] $20,000. [1:22:31] In just the first nine months of last year, jails in Chicago, where Sheridan Gorman was [1:22:40] killed, declined 329 ICE detainers, or more than one a day. [1:22:45] Dozens of those released had serious prior convictions, including assault, robbery, drugs, [1:22:51] weapons, sex assault on a minor, and even homicide. [1:22:55] This is not just a big city problem. [1:22:57] It happens in smaller jurisdictions, too. [1:23:00] For example, from 2024 to 2015, jails in sanctuary jurisdictions declined more than [1:23:01] $20,000. [1:23:02] In 2024 through early 2025, until North Carolina passed a state anti-sanctuary law, the Durham [1:23:07] County Jail failed to honor 33 detainers. [1:23:11] These criminal aliens had pending charges, including DUI, burglary, aggravated assault, [1:23:17] weapons, sexual assault, and even homicide. [1:23:21] There is no valid public safety reason not to cooperate with ICE in these cases. [1:23:27] Sanctuary supporters are unmoved by the pain. [1:23:29] Their policies have caused Americans to lose their lives. [1:23:30] They have lost their lives. [1:23:31] Since then they have had a hard time with the police force in their response. [1:23:32] A law that has been passed against jails has given American families of victims. [1:23:33] Americans like Sheridan Gorman, Stephanie Minter, Katie Abraham, Denny McCann, Drew Rosenberg, [1:23:42] Matthew Deniss, Lakin Riley, Kate Steinle, Richard Ferguson Jr., and so many others whose [1:23:48] priceless lives were lost as a result of sanctuary policies. [1:23:51] The Signature of Sanctuary Policy [1:23:53] Congress must help by barring certain federal funding and tax exemptions for sanctuaries, [1:23:59] and clarifying that state and local police have the ability to maintain protection against [1:24:00] national police and security. [1:24:01] police have the authority to cooperate with ice so they cannot be blocked from doing so by state [1:24:07] or local laws finally those who are seriously harmed as a result of sanctuary policies should [1:24:13] have some recourse in the courts which could be an effective deterrent to egregious policies [1:24:19] thank you thank you professor vladic uh chairman schmidt ranking member welch distinguished members [1:24:25] of the subcommittee thank you for the invitation to testify today as justice kennedy put it in 1995 [1:24:31] quote the framers split the atom of sovereignty unquote the central premise of constitutional [1:24:36] federalism was that by dividing power not just horizontally among the branches of government [1:24:41] but vertically between the federal government and the states all of our liberty would be best [1:24:45] secured against tyranny and governmental lawlessness indeed one needn't look very [1:24:49] far these days to see that aspiration regularly being vindicated in my testimony this afternoon [1:24:55] i'd like to underscore three long settled principles derived from this understanding [1:24:59] first as justice scalia wrote [1:25:01] for the court in 1997 quote the federal government may neither issue directives requiring the states [1:25:06] to address particular problems nor command the state's officers or those of their political [1:25:11] subdivisions to administer or enforce a federal regulatory program such commands are fundamentally [1:25:17] incompatible with our constitutional system of dual sovereignty unquote word otherwise congress [1:25:23] could usurp not just state policy choices but the president's discretion over federal law enforcement [1:25:29] by compelling states to do what the [1:25:31] president won't i would have thought this principle would be especially persuasive [1:25:35] to those whose views of executive power are even broader than mine including some of the other [1:25:40] witnesses this afternoon and members of the subcommittee alas second the notion that the [1:25:44] federal government cannot coerce the states on questions of federal policy is also reflected in [1:25:49] the supreme court's spending clause jurisprudence it is not and contra attorney general bondy never [1:25:54] has been true that congress's greater power to simply not spend money implies a lesser power to [1:26:01] impose any and all conditions on whatever it spends thus the supreme court has struck down [1:26:06] spending conditions on the ground that they are not truly voluntary because at that point the [1:26:10] federal government is effectively dictating state policy something it cannot do under any guise and [1:26:15] no matter how compelling the policy arguments might be to similar effect even legitimate [1:26:20] conditions must be both substantially related to the purposes for which congress is spending the [1:26:25] money and clearly expressed in law in other words even otherwise permissible spending conditions must [1:26:31] come from the clear language of statutes not the whims of an executive order obviously that should [1:26:36] call into question so many of this administration's actions in withholding federal funds virtually [1:26:42] none of which have been based on clear statutory conditions again i would have thought that given [1:26:47] its mandate the subcommittee would be especially interested in the latent unconstitutionality of [1:26:52] those executive actions alas third unless these principles or my testimony be taken out of context [1:26:59] neither the anti-commandeering doctrine nor the [1:27:01] limits on spending conditions allow states to impede or obstruct federal law enforcement [1:27:06] and i'm not aware of any state or local government that has argued or actually acted otherwise but [1:27:13] there is a constitutionally critical distinction between active obstruction and passive non-cooperation [1:27:19] one that courts have regularly enforced including in the immigration context there may well be [1:27:25] political points to be scored in trying to collapse that distinction and in trying to portray certain [1:27:30] local and state choices [1:27:31] to not cooperate as affirmative interference with federal law enforcement but if the goal of today's [1:27:37] hearing is to unpack what the constitution actually has to say about this distinction [1:27:41] the reality is that the law on this front for better or for worse is particularly clear [1:27:46] it is clear not only that a refusal to cooperate with federal law enforcement [1:27:50] is not impermissible obstruction but that local and state officials motives for not cooperating [1:27:55] with federal law enforcement are at least for constitutional purposes entirely irrelevant [1:28:01] whether one calls a non-cooperating local or state government a sanctuary jurisdiction or not [1:28:06] the constitution protects their choice all the same immigration is quite obviously a matter on [1:28:12] which there are deep political and increasingly partisan disagreements many of which have [1:28:17] significant local and or regional variations some localities might choose to cooperate with federal [1:28:23] immigration efforts others might see such cooperation as impeding the community relationships [1:28:28] necessary to identify and solve crimes or as threatening [1:28:31] the liberty not just of those who are being targeted by these efforts but of those who aren't [1:28:37] or at least shouldn't have been ultimately the choice as to how to devote law enforcement [1:28:42] resources including whether or not to use such resources to aid in federal immigration efforts [1:28:47] is one that has not just traditionally been left to state and local authorities it's one that the [1:28:52] constitution commits to them members of the subcommittee may have vehement disagreements [1:28:57] with the different choices that different local and state governments have made in this space [1:29:00] i have some disagreements with some of the subcommittee members of the subcommittee may have [1:29:02] disagreements with some of those choices myself but the animating principle and promise of [1:29:06] federalism is that states are allowed to have their own reasons for making their own choices [1:29:11] and for those who think those governments have made the wrong choices there are remedies i just [1:29:16] respectfully submit that those remedies lie at the local and state ballot boxes not in a senate [1:29:21] hearing room thank you again for the invitation to testify today and i look forward to your questions [1:29:25] mr abraham chairman schmidt ranking member members of the committee every parent in this room [1:29:34] may respond by saying something about their position in the election campaign [1:29:38] i want to [1:29:40] i'm not going to beat around the bush and i know that when i was on the panel i talked about [1:29:45] the power of the secretary governor's office and i'm not going to be wrong and i'm not going to [1:29:49] say anything about the president for a minute but i'm not going to say anything about the president [1:29:54] for a minute but what i did consider is that the president had a life of freedom [1:30:00] and the freedom of speech which is to say that the president's life is to do whatever he wants [1:30:04] in life that's split time into everything before and then everything after for me that moment came [1:30:08] having a normal night. My daughter Katie was in the back seat. Car wasn't moving. It was at a red [1:30:14] light. In a single instant, my daughter's life was gone. An intoxicated illegal immigrant slammed [1:30:21] into the back of her car at 80 miles an hour. They never saw that coming. First responders [1:30:27] fought to pull my daughter's dead body out of that car. She didn't survive. The man who caused [1:30:37] the crash, Julio Cuco Bull, a Guatemalan national who had already been deported, ran but was [1:30:45] eventually captured in Milford, Texas, trying to escape the country. Despite federal authorities [1:30:50] knowing who he was, he was able to re-enter the United States in 2022 and live in Illinois under [1:30:57] a false identity because state policies and enforcement gaps fail to protect the public. [1:31:05] Katie was a compassionate, funny, sharp-witted. She had friends from many different backgrounds [1:31:11] and she had a way of making everyone feel seen, heard, and valued. She was also a [1:31:17] strong athlete, water polo, and swam competitively through high school. Katie deserved a future full [1:31:24] of love, laughter, and life, graduating college, building a career, falling in love, and experiencing [1:31:30] all the joys and heartbreak of adulthood. Instead, that was stolen at a red light in a street in [1:31:38] Illinois. The man who killed her described himself in court as unable to read or write English, [1:31:46] even Spanish. He spoke a Kai-Chi Mayan language from Guatemala. [1:31:52] Yet somehow, he possessed an Illinois driver's license, valid. So when a system sends signals [1:31:58] that borders are porous, that deportations are ignored, and that enforcement is unlikely, [1:32:04] people who are willing to ignore the law will take advantage of those conditions. That is [1:32:09] not a complicated idea. That is human behavior. It's predictable. And when those incentives [1:32:17] exist, the consequences are not abstract. Families like mine live with them forever. [1:32:25] My parents immigrated legally to the United States. They were born and raised in the United States. [1:32:26] My parents immigrated legally to the United States. They were born and raised in the United States. [1:32:27] My parents immigrated legally to the United States. They were born and raised in the United States. [1:32:28] From a third world country. They came here for the opportunity America offered to people [1:32:33] who work hard, follow the law, and contribute to society. My parents honored that opportunity, [1:32:40] and they raised us to respect the law. But that trust was broken by the government sworn [1:32:46] to protect its citizens. [1:32:49] Katie's death was not inevitable. It was preventable. That's the question before this committee. [1:32:56] Not whether crime exists in society. It always has. Not whether citizens commit more crimes. [1:33:02] That's a complete deflection and completely irrelevant to the types of these situations. [1:33:13] The question is whether policy decisions increase or decrease preventable risk. Did failures [1:33:21] in enforcement matter? Did gaps in coordination matter? Did policy choices create conditions [1:33:28] that allowed this to happen? Those questions deserve clear answers. Because intentions [1:33:36] don't save lives. Results do. [1:33:37] Katie's death was not inevitable. It was preventable. That's the question before this committee. [1:33:38] Katie's not a headline. She was not a statistic. She was someone worth more than being ignored [1:33:46] and made invisible, especially in my state. Just because her story was inconvenient. She [1:33:54] was my daughter. She should be finishing school right now. She should be planning for her [1:34:01] future. She should still be laughing with her family and friends. Instead, her urn sits [1:34:09] in a room we constructed to remember her life. [1:34:15] I can't bring Katie back. But this committee has the power to examine what failed. And [1:34:21] to demand transparency and to ensure policies are judged not by their intentions but by [1:34:29] their outcomes. Every preventable death deserves that level of seriousness. Katie received [1:34:36] a death sentence that night. We received a life sentence. I ask this committee to ensure [1:34:41] that what happened to my daughter is examined honestly and that meaningful steps are taken [1:34:47] so fewer families ever have to stand where I stand. Thank you. [1:34:55] Thank you, Mr. Abram. [1:34:57] Mr. Meares, I want to start with you. As you mentioned in your testimony, Governor [1:35:03] Spanberger issued executive order number one, banning, affirmatively banning the state police [1:35:10] cooperation with federal immigration authorities. I think after this incident, the Stephanie [1:35:13] Mentor incident, she hasn't even committed that if somehow this monster were to get out [1:35:17] or be released or something, that they wouldn't even notify ICE. You're a former prosecutor. [1:35:23] You're a former attorney general. Under 8 U.S.C. 1373, you're a former attorney general. [1:35:25] You're a former attorney general. [1:35:26] You're a former attorney general. [1:35:27] You're a former attorney general. [1:35:28] You're a former attorney general. [1:35:29] You appreciate looking [1:35:31] back at folks this whole- [1:35:31] I'm not going to go too fast. [1:35:32] As AM mä*** I'd say, as an' temçe' [1:35:36] . [1:35:38] If you don't agree, it makes it unlawful for any state or local official to restrict [1:35:40] information sharing with federal immigration authorities. Do you believe or do you have [1:35:44] an opinion as to whether or not the governor issuing an order like this could be breaking [1:35:50] federal law? [1:35:51] I mean, I personally think it does, but I think what she has done is dismantled [1:35:55] what as I noted before was a very successful policies under Governor Juncka under Executive [1:36:00] with federal immigration authorities to give you perspective senator if you are dealing with the [1:36:05] virginia department of corrections you're not picked up on a dui you're not picked up on petty [1:36:10] larceny you're a convicted felon serving time independent in prison period not jail prison [1:36:19] and even then governor spanberger thinks if you're a violent convicted felon sitting in a virginia [1:36:25] prison then not notify federal authorities and what is worse senator right now sitting on her [1:36:32] desk is hb 1441 out of richmond this bill would force force every locality in the entire state [1:36:42] of virginia 133 localities 95 counties 35 independent cities to adopt the same policy [1:36:50] as fairfax county it would be an absolute bar for them even if they want a locality wants to enter [1:36:57] into a [1:36:58] 287g agreement even then this bill on her desk with all expectations she's probably going to [1:37:04] sign it in the dead of night to appease her left-wing base would turn virginia uh into not [1:37:11] just 11 now sanctuary states virginia would be the 12th it would be mandatory and so i think it is an [1:37:16] example of what happens too often in government where people ask citizens to judge them not by [1:37:22] the results but by their intentions and too many lives are being lost right now i was with cheryl [1:37:28] minter yesterday [1:37:29] and it broke my heart to hear a private citizen so beside herself that as she asked me why do the [1:37:37] politicians not get it why don't they get it yeah why are so many of them sitting back and saying [1:37:45] my daughter gets stabbed multiple times by somebody who had 30 not one not five not 10 not [1:37:52] 15 not 25 30 prior arrest and so you could see where the average citizen look at what's happening [1:37:58] and they just shake their head and then they say oh well it's not like we're going to get a lot of [1:38:02] see what's happening with, not just in Richmond, but obviously in Washington, where they had those [1:38:08] that have cheerleaded these sanctuary policies. So I do think it is a violation of federal law. [1:38:14] I'm sure it'll be litigated, but in my opinion, it is, Senator. Thank you. Ms. Vaughn, I want to [1:38:18] ask you briefly in my limited time here. Your testimony urges Congress to penalize jurisdictions [1:38:24] that obstruct enforcement. One idea that jumps out is, I think we might actually be able to pass [1:38:30] and reconciliation is conditioning federal funding, or sorry, conditioning federal municipal [1:38:35] bond funding on a jurisdiction certifying that it's not a sanctuary city. How would that work [1:38:41] in like a minute? Well, currently municipal bonds are tax exempt, and I think that the adoption of [1:38:52] sanctuary policies, especially those that are, I believe, many of them are operating in violation [1:38:57] of federal law, section 1373 and 16. [1:39:01] 44, that's a governance issue, and it's affecting public safety and the fiscal standing of these [1:39:13] jurisdictions, and it's important that investors be informed about that, and also that these [1:39:21] municipalities that are in violation of federal law not be able to be subsidized by taxpayers [1:39:27] when they have serious governance issues. [1:39:31] Thank you. [1:39:32] Thank you. [1:39:33] And it makes it more expensive for them to also to borrow money. [1:39:35] Thank you. Mr. Abraham, first of all, thank you for being here. As I talked to you before, [1:39:41] I cannot imagine the grief you and your family still have and the loss that you've suffered. [1:39:49] And I appreciate your courage in being outspoken about this. What message would you give to [1:39:56] these politicians who defend sanctuary cities? What are they missing? [1:40:02] What do they what do they not understand about the impact that this has that you've lived? [1:40:08] What would you want to say? [1:40:10] Yeah, I don't. Well, first, I know they have no consideration for that. [1:40:13] That's just my take from my own experience. [1:40:16] So that's one. I wish they were able to put themselves in someone else's position and look at what their policies are doing. [1:40:25] You know, this whole intention thing or the moral high ground that they all think they have when they're doing it for really an immoral purpose. [1:40:31] When they're doing it for really an immoral purpose. [1:40:32] When they're doing it for really an immoral purpose. [1:40:33] Does not make it moral. Does that make it right? [1:40:36] You're going to tell me that four or five years ago you had everyone in the world bum rush our border and that's OK. [1:40:43] Now we're saying, look, we can't be extreme in what we're doing. [1:40:46] Where were these voices four years ago saying, hey, this is way too extreme. [1:40:51] And it didn't take legislation to stop what happened over those years. [1:40:57] So you want to get really down to the nitty gritty here. [1:41:00] Anyone who came in during the Biden regime ought to be looked at. [1:41:04] Katie's killer was not the worst of the worst. [1:41:07] That poor girl in Chicago. [1:41:10] He wasn't the worst of the worst. [1:41:12] How did it become that way? [1:41:14] It shouldn't just be worst of the worst. [1:41:16] So I'm sorry they missed that. [1:41:19] Thank you, Senator Walsh. [1:41:22] Thank you very much, Mr. Abraham. [1:41:24] I also want to thank you for coming and acknowledge your loss. [1:41:27] Thank you, Sheriff. [1:41:31] One of the there's some practical challenges here. [1:41:34] There is a goal for public safety. [1:41:37] We've had tragedies that have to be attended to. [1:41:41] There's also been tragedies that we saw in Minneapolis. [1:41:45] I'd like to get to a place where we have public safety for everyone. [1:41:50] What level of training do your officers have to go through before you're going to give them a badge and send them out in the public with a weapon to protect the public? [1:42:04] Thank you, Senator, for that question. [1:42:06] The Durham County Sheriff's Office. [1:42:07] We work. [1:42:08] We run our own academies. [1:42:10] And in North Carolina, the Basic Law Enforcement Training Academy is nearly 685, almost 700 hours of training. [1:42:18] At the Durham County Sheriff's Office, once they successfully complete that academy training, we run a post academy for another 10 to 12 weeks to further ensure that our deputies are fully trained and qualified to take the streets of Durham County. [1:42:34] Training that includes de-escalation, cultural sensitivity. [1:42:37] CIT training. [1:42:38] How to recognize a subject that's going through a mental illness. [1:42:39] And how to identify the resources that we need to get those individuals the help that they need. [1:42:40] And to make, obviously, clear and correct arrest and detention of others. [1:42:41] So it's a lot of hours of training, sir. [1:42:42] Yeah. [1:42:43] Thank you. [1:42:44] And my understanding is that in your department, as in most police departments, communication with other departments that may be affected is incredibly important. [1:42:45] What's been your experience with that? [1:42:46] Well, it's been a lot of fun. [1:42:47] It's been a lot of fun. [1:42:48] Thank you. [1:42:49] Thank you. [1:42:50] Thank you. [1:42:51] Thank you. [1:42:52] Thank you. [1:42:53] Thank you. [1:42:54] Thank you. [1:42:55] Thank you. [1:42:56] Thank you. [1:42:57] Thank you. [1:42:58] Thank you. [1:42:59] Thank you. [1:43:00] Thank you. [1:43:01] Thank you. [1:43:02] Thank you. [1:43:03] Thank you. [1:43:04] So when you say communication with other departments that may be affected is incredibly important, what's been your experience about the communication that you get from ICE? [1:43:14] The communication with ICE, unfortunately, is next to none. [1:43:23] I've actually reached out to ICE, asked them to inform me when they need to look for someone or pick someone up in Durham county to no avail. [1:43:33] was supposed to appear in court he did not appear and they left and we assisted them in looking for [1:43:39] that individual so that's the level of communication that i would like to see every single time [1:43:44] they identify someone that's in my jurisdiction that needs to be apprehended thank you very much [1:43:49] professor vladic you know this question of conditions that are being now imposed [1:43:57] and the suggestion that that is a tool that the executive should use [1:44:01] i just want you to go over why not only you believe that's unconstitutional but even from [1:44:08] a policy standpoint it is very detrimental to the well-being of our communities sure i mean [1:44:16] the the unconstitutionality part is just that the spending clause is not a power that the president [1:44:21] has it's a power that congress has and so when congress in its wisdom sees fit to impose [1:44:27] conditions upon recipients of funds be they local or state governments be they private actors [1:44:32] that's a legislative choice the president cannot change the meaning of legislation through an [1:44:37] executive order and so in so far as the supreme court has said over and over again during [1:44:42] presidencies of both parties that spending conditions must be clear that they must be [1:44:47] clearly expressed in law that they must be voluntarily entered into by the recipients [1:44:52] you can't clearly express in law a condition that appears only in an executive order and so [1:44:56] that's the problem there senator to your policy point i mean i think the larger issue is that [1:45:01] spending conditions as the supreme court has said are supposed to give the recipients a meaningful [1:45:07] choice and part of that's to reflect that spending conditions cannot be a back door [1:45:13] around the ban on commandeering and so you know when folks talk about proposals to for instance [1:45:19] condition municipal bond tax exemption i don't know how much of a choice that is uh for local [1:45:25] and state governments with tight budgets i mean that's exactly why the supreme court in the [1:45:28] affordable care act case in 2012 said the medicaid expansion was unconstitutional [1:45:31] because the states even though they were getting such a good deal from the federal government [1:45:35] didn't really have a choice to say no so you know again folks are going to have myriad policy views [1:45:41] about what the right approach here is i think we've just lost sight of what the constitution [1:45:45] imposes as a constraint in this context yeah so the bottom line this legislative body could [1:45:50] impose conditions uh that would be in statute it would be voted on by the elected representatives [1:45:56] of the house and the senate yep as long as as long as four things were true as long as the conditions [1:46:01] were clearly expressed in law as long as they were reasonably related uh to the underlying money [1:46:07] that was being spent as long as the state or the recipient voluntarily accepted them and as long as [1:46:12] they didn't otherwise offend the constitution with those conditions congress can do it i will just say [1:46:17] briefly and senator i know you know this we've heard reference to section 1373 most of the courts [1:46:22] to consider whether 1373 is unconstitutional have said yes it is uh thank you i have to run [1:46:28] and vote that's where uh senator schmittman he'll be right back [1:46:32] and i'll be right back and i'll turn it over uh to senator kennedy thank you sheriff um [1:46:49] your sheriff of durham county yes sir yeah beautiful beautiful parish or we call our [1:46:55] counties parishes beautiful county um is it at least part of your job to protect the public [1:47:07] yes it is okay um you believe that vetting people at the border is racist do you not [1:47:21] i'm sorry you believe that vetting people at the border is racist do you not no i've never said [1:47:30] that i believe that having secure borders is important and we need we have processes that [1:47:35] allow individuals to come into the country the right way absolutely you believe that people [1:47:42] should be able to violate federal immigration laws without consequences don't you no sir i do [1:47:52] not i believe that anyone who violates federal or state law but they shouldn't be [1:47:54] needs to be held accountable and there need to be consequences you don't [1:47:58] believe in cooperating with ice do you I believe in cooperating with federal [1:48:04] authorities as I do a number of federal agencies I cooperate with and I [1:48:08] certainly would cooperate with ice if they would cooperate with me you were [1:48:15] elected in 2018 sheriff is that right that's correct okay on April 18 2018 you [1:48:33] gave an interview with a media organization called Indy Week do you [1:48:38] remember that I'm familiar with the paper yes okay here's what you see it [1:48:45] I'm quoting you your words not mine I disagree with the incumbent sheriff's [1:48:53] that's the guy you be with the incumbent sheriff's cooperation with ice I will [1:49:01] make a clear and uncompromising commitment to not cooperate with ice a [1:49:07] sheriff [1:49:09] I will make a clear and uncompromising commitment to not cooperate with ice a sheriff I will [1:49:09] will not honor ICE detainers and we will not participate in ICE roundups, end quote. Did I [1:49:18] read that correctly? Yes, sir. Okay. In April of last year, you spoke to a group of ICE [1:49:35] employees. Do you remember that? Not particularly, no. Okay. Well, there was an article in a media [1:49:44] organization, a media entity called the Assembly. Are you familiar with them? Do you remember? [1:49:51] I've heard of the Assembly, yes. Yeah. Do you remember giving them an interview? [1:49:54] I give several interviews. I actually don't remember that particular one, but I'm... [1:49:59] Okay. Well, here's what you said in the interview, apparently on the record. These ICE [1:50:08] employees that you spoke to, you were referencing them and you said, quote, [1:50:13] they, these ICE officials, asked me, so Sheriff, [1:50:20] if someone is about to be released from your jail and the detainer is about to expire, [1:50:27] you will call us and let us know? What was my answer? You said, no, because that's not what [1:50:38] the law says. No, I will not call ICE, end quote. Did I read that correctly? Yes, you did. Okay. [1:50:47] And, sir, Senator, that was before the new law, which is now House Bill 318, which requires me [1:50:53] to make that second phone call. Okay. And, sir, Senator, that was before the new law, which is now [1:50:55] House Bill 318, which requires me to make that second phone call. Well, yes. [1:50:56] Prior to that, it was not state law, which I follow and all my deputies follow. Sure. [1:51:01] Sure. So now we do make that second phone call, but ICE agents are notified whenever [1:51:06] someone is entered into my... process into my jail. Do you need some water? Because I [1:51:11] think your pants are on fire. Okay. Do you remember a gentleman by the name of Carlos [1:51:19] Heriberto Mendoza Martinez? Not right off, sir. Okay. Sheriff, you should. He was in [1:51:29] our country illegally. [1:51:30] for mexico he was in a street gang uh he in back in mexico he was convicted of manslaughter [1:51:41] and he was in your jail and in because in 2021 and 2024 mr martinez was arrested for assaulting [1:51:56] a woman and domestic violence and i placed a detainer on this guy because he was in our [1:52:05] country legally and he was a criminal and he was in your jail and you wouldn't honor that [1:52:13] detainer would you i can't say that i did not honor the detainer i can't i can say what i did [1:52:19] honor it was the conditions of the release that were issued by a judge and so therefore and once [1:52:25] again ice was notified that they could come you really believe in public safety yes sir i do you [1:52:31] would allow someone in our country illegally convicted of manslaughter convicted of domestic [1:52:40] violence and domestic violence and domestic violence and domestic violence and domestic [1:52:40] violence in your jail ice says we will please hold him when his time is up we want to get this [1:52:50] criminal out of our country and you said no ice was notified that they could come pick up the [1:52:58] individual and for some reason they did not and the judge issued the conditions of release i am [1:53:03] a custodian i do not determine who is released or held i follow the court's order sheriff i don't [1:53:09] mean any disrespect but you ought to be ashamed how can you possibly be for public safety [1:53:17] if you hate our immigration laws so much that you would let a convicted murderer back on the street [1:53:27] do you really hate immigration laws that much senator it's not a matter of that i hate immigration [1:53:33] law you could have fooled me sheriff thank you sir yes sir thank you for your service you're now [1:53:43] in charge i gotta go vote holly is in charge it's a dangerous moment all kinds of things could happen [1:53:51] i think it's senator durbin i believe sheriff burkhead tell me a little bit about your background [1:53:56] you've been declared an enemy of public safety well i uh i grew up in rural north carolina randolph [1:54:04] county to be exact uh went to public schools there and i started my law enforcement career [1:54:09] in randolph county in 1984 and then i matriculated to durham north carolina went to work for duke [1:54:15] university served there for almost 17 17 and a half years and 10 years after going to work at [1:54:22] duke university i was hired and appointed as the chief and director of public safety for both the [1:54:27] university and uh the medical center and from there i after seven years then i served as the [1:54:35] chief of police in hillsboro and now i am the sheriff in durham county elected in 2018 elected [1:54:41] by the people elected by the people what was your percentage uh this past primary election i got 86.2 [1:54:48] percent of the votes seems like the people who know you were prepared to vote for you that would [1:54:53] be correct sir yes and so whatever has been said at this committee meeting may not [1:54:58] really reflect any knowledge of who you really are i listened to the chiefs of police responding [1:55:04] to ice's activities that led up to the killing of two innocent people in minneapolis and others led [1:55:11] up to a point where a young woman in chicago driving to her church to donate some clothing [1:55:19] was shot five times by the ice agents and survived it by some miracle and then no charges were filed [1:55:29] against her the chiefs of police in [1:55:32] minneapolis and chicago report that because of ice activities they've got two obvious problems [1:55:37] one responding to reports of ice activity and number two the fact that the community which is [1:55:45] being beset by these ice agents is living in fear and doesn't reach out as they once did to law [1:55:53] enforcement officials as a former chief of police in at least several jurisdictions does that [1:55:59] explanation ring true to you it does sir unfortunately it does that would seem to be the [1:56:05] dilemma we face here as we turn up the law enforcement in communities and don't target [1:56:12] specifically bad individuals we run the risk of scaring and frightening ordinary families and [1:56:18] businesses as one person said to me they're going after the gardeners not the gangsters [1:56:24] do you see that as a problem i do indeed sir and and as i said in my opening testimony i agree with [1:56:33] going after the target individuals who are in this country documented or undocumented [1:56:38] and if they commit violent crime and that's what we do in durham county where i'm the sheriff i'm [1:56:43] proud to serve the residents of durham county as their sheriff anyone who violates the law in my [1:56:48] jurisdiction will be identified apprehended and presented to the d.a for hopefully successful [1:56:55] prosecution and six out of seven of those who have been detained and some deported by the ice [1:57:03] operation had no criminal record of any any substance does that surprise you [1:57:11] disappoints me again i think we need to be going after those individuals who commit crimes in our [1:57:16] cities and towns all across this country and not terrorizing communities and certainly not going [1:57:21] after those who are trying to make a living and who are not violating our laws i have some pride [1:57:28] of authorship in this comprehensive immigration bill which passed the senate in a bipartisan way [1:57:33] supported by business and labor and every major group there was then founded in the u.s house [1:57:40] representatives but it had a provision that every [1:57:43] undocumented person in america who wants to work has to report themselves where they live to the [1:57:50] federal government and go through a criminal background check that every employer has to [1:57:55] use e-verify to make sure the identity of the person who is in their employment that seemed [1:58:00] to me to be a pretty good system changing what we live with today but creating an opportunity for [1:58:05] people to work legally in this country if they pass a criminal background check does that sound [1:58:11] reasonable to you it does sound reasonable to me and [1:58:15] again our immigration system has been broken for quite some time and i think that would be a step in [1:58:19] the right direction it's one of my major disappointments i introduced the dream act over [1:58:23] 20 years ago i still think it's basic justice gives people who are to this country as children [1:58:29] toddlers and infants because of the decision of their parents you have a chance to become part of [1:58:36] that country they get up every day in a classroom with the rest of the kids and swear allegiance to [1:58:42] a flag which doesn't allow them to have a chance i think there are ways that we can [1:58:47] make america safer and humane and it doesn't involve ice agents shooting american citizens [1:58:53] on the streets of minneapolis or chicago i think we can do this in a thoughtful and humane way [1:58:59] if we temper the rhetoric and get down to basics thank you very much for your testimony thank you [1:59:04] sir thank you senator senator whitehouse thank you um i come from rhode island and as the sheriff has [1:59:15] pointed out sanctuary cities is not a legal term people can sort of define it however they [1:59:20] wish to um i think all of the republicans who've appeared during this committee have been lawyers [1:59:27] so let me just say a word about the law in the first circuit where my capital city providence [1:59:35] for instance is located it is not lawful for a local law enforcement agency to detain someone [1:59:45] for a minute for an hour for a day just on an ice detainer if somebody is arrested and held by the [1:59:54] providence police and the cause for which they're being held by the providence police [1:59:58] evaporates the existence of an ice detainer does not justify continuing to hold them in fact [2:00:06] continuing to hold them would justify a liability suit against the department and the officer for [2:00:14] that all of which is fun and games for ice because ice agents are subject to no civil liability [2:00:23] given how the supreme court has shrunk the bivens doctrine down to a grain of sand but everybody else [2:00:35] can be sued [2:00:37] so to me it's a little bit rich when people call my capital city a sanctuary city and demand that [2:00:46] our police officers our real law enforcement officers put themselves in harm's way for civil [2:00:52] liability when our courts have said that's actually against the law you can be liable for [2:01:01] that the second thing that i'd note is that cooperation matters and as the sheriff has [2:01:10] pointed out cooperation is a two-way street but even if cooperation is not a two-way street [2:01:16] there are a lot of people who are going to be liable for that and i think that's going to be [2:01:17] successful [2:01:22] yes it is [2:01:24] it's pretty standard law enforcement practice to deconflict there's a middle [2:01:28] model law on deconfliction it's an accreditation qualification there are courses taught [2:01:35] on deconfliction are there not [2:01:36] yes sir there are [2:01:38] and what i've seen is that ice refuses to deconflict not only that secretaryitarium didn't even even [2:01:45] know the difference she didn't know what deconfliction was [2:01:49] That's how unapparent to these agents the basic principles of law enforcement are. [2:01:56] They don't know to de-conflict. [2:01:58] And then when they come in and do harm, and local law enforcement, sheriffs, attorneys general, local police departments have to investigate, let's say, a killing, a homicide, they make the decision that they're not even going to cooperate. [2:02:15] They're not going to turn over any evidence. [2:02:17] They're going to hide the evidence that they have from local law enforcement. [2:02:20] And that's exactly what was done in Minneapolis. [2:02:26] So, again, it's a little bit rich to come in and say, well, Providence Police should do more to cooperate with these so-called law enforcement officials, these officers, when they refuse to de-conflict. [2:02:40] And if they shoot someone and there's a local homicide investigation, they hide the evidence rather than cooperate with local law enforcement. [2:02:52] So the last thing I'll just point out. [2:02:55] I just want to tell this. [2:02:56] I want to tell this story to give everybody an idea of what this actually looks like in real time. [2:03:00] Luckily, nobody was hurt in this episode in Rhode Island. [2:03:04] ICE was operating in our Superior Court courthouse, contrary to a written agreement with the court that they would not operate in that courthouse. [2:03:15] They were taking pictures of people in the courthouse, contrary to a court rule that, for very good and proper reasons, forbids taking pictures of people in the courthouse. [2:03:26] They were pursuing somebody who. [2:03:30] They was over 30 years old, and for some reason, they'd got it into their heads that a high school intern working for a state judge was that 30-year-old-plus person. [2:03:42] So they started pursuing the intern who went to the judge and said, I'd like to go back to school. [2:03:48] My time's up. [2:03:49] Can you give me a ride back to school? [2:03:50] So a sitting state judge walked his intern out to his car. [2:03:57] The ICE agents, who should not have been operating there in the first place, followed him out. [2:04:02] Here's something. [2:04:02] That law enforcement does. [2:04:04] It's called clues. [2:04:07] The man's car was in a parking spot reserved for judges. [2:04:14] So even if they hadn't bothered to figure out who the judges were in the courthouse in which they were improperly operating, they could have deduced with just a little bit of brain activity that perhaps the man getting into the car in the judge's only parking spot was a judge. [2:04:34] Instead, they insisted on. [2:04:36] Trying to seize the high school student, who they thought was over 30 years old, evidently, and they told the judge, get out of the effing car, only they didn't restrain themselves to F, I'm going to smash your effing windows in your car and drag you out if you don't. [2:04:57] This to a judge who they just followed out of the courthouse, and if for some reason they didn't know he was a judge, it does not take a lot of brain power to do the deduction from where the car was parked that this was a judge. [2:05:11] That's how. [2:05:12] That's how. [2:05:13] They operate. [2:05:14] Why would anyone in their right mind in law enforcement want to cooperate with that kind of behavior when local law enforcement can be held civilly liable for going along with that kind of nonsense and only federal ice agents can hide from any civil consequences. [2:05:36] That's the predicament that we have, and I would urge my colleagues to recognize those facts when they start and the hand that law when they start throwing around terms like sanctuary cities about. [2:05:47] This is what happens in the city, and that's exactly what happened. [2:05:48] So what we have to do and I want to hope that we do. [2:05:54] Is move them up the level. [2:05:55] Next Jags inипita enough to cause hot take a stab at my capital city. [2:05:59] Thank you to Senator city. [2:06:01] . [2:06:02] Let's be clear about what we're talking about when we talk about sanctuary jurisdictions easily holding anyways after it's about before they're being released. [2:06:09] Right the local officials would notify when a rapist or a murderer. [2:06:17] Or a violent criminal. [2:06:19] Is being released from prison. [2:06:21] Correct. [2:06:22] process and your experience worked and then also also pointing out maybe in [2:06:27] answering the question why that is an infinitely safer process for people than [2:06:33] ice agents having to go into communities and find the same person right no [2:06:37] question well oftentimes when we use the term sanctuary cities it's multi-layered [2:06:41] so we'll look at Fairfax County you have a local Board of Supervisors that passed [2:06:45] something called the trust policy that explicitly prohibits their cooperation [2:06:50] local local officials cooperation with federal immigration authorities then [2:06:54] you have a local sheriff that also does not honor ice detainers and then you [2:06:59] have a local prosecutor and Steve Descano who publishes on his website he [2:07:03] takes in your immigration status into account in his charging decisions I've [2:07:07] seen this firsthand because several years ago I actually talked to ice [2:07:14] agents and asked them to walk through the process and I saw this with my own [2:07:18] two eyes they decided listen you should [2:07:21] see what we have to deal with all they have to do is make a phone call when the [2:07:25] person's released we literally meet them in the parking lot because I asked them [2:07:28] the jurisdictions that cooperate how does this work you have somebody that [2:07:32] they they're notified they're being released they get told when they're [2:07:37] going to be released they meet them in the parking parking lot that is [2:07:40] infinitely safer than when they're releasing the community what I saw was [2:07:44] ice had to put together a three different eight-man teams to arrest [2:07:48] people that had previously been arrested [2:07:51] on drug charges one was on a weapons charge one was a suspected ms-13 gang member that had been [2:07:57] indicted on a rape charge and a left-wing judge in fairfax county gave this person bond even though [2:08:04] this person was here illegally all three they had to do an enormous amount of manpower to track down [2:08:10] where they lived determine a good time to apprehend them and what i saw was an early morning [2:08:16] attempt for the suspected ms-13 gang member who'd been indicted on a rape charge [2:08:21] where he was leaving uh his townhouse late and a school bus showed up with young children [2:08:28] right there about to uh board the school bus he identified who the federal authorities were and [2:08:34] he started running through neighborhoods through the streets they could not get cooperation from [2:08:39] local law enforcement so that is infinitely more dangerous for the community what i saw [2:08:45] than what was described to me the way it should work is picking him picking this individual up [2:08:49] this ms-13 gang member up when he's released from [2:08:51] jail thank you senator padilla thank you mr chairman uh i want to thank all the witnesses [2:08:59] for coming here today and for uh participating uh particularly mr abraham uh for your loss uh [2:09:09] inexcusable regardless of uh who the perpetrator was i can imagine how heartbreaking it is i just [2:09:15] wanted you to know that we feel for you and it takes a lot for you to be here to share your story [2:09:24] and i know we've heard a lot not just today but for days and weeks and months frankly years about [2:09:33] the dangers and threats of sanctuary cities i think my colleagues that may not be as informed [2:09:43] about sanctuary cities sometimes choose to describe a city or a state as some sort of [2:09:50] lawless wasteland where anything goes and that's either [2:09:55] a misunderstanding um intentional or otherwise of what sanctuary policies are and i think the [2:10:02] american people deserve to know what sanctuary policies are and what they are not so sanctuary [2:10:08] policies do not mean that there are no laws or that these communities are areas where anything [2:10:14] goes it's not mad max in fact as the national immigration law center and others have found [2:10:21] there's a notable decrease in crime overall in cities and states [2:10:26] that prioritize welcoming immigrant communities rather than targeting them [2:10:31] these jurisdictions also report by the way higher median household income [2:10:36] less levels of poverty and lower rates of unemployment i think these are all positive [2:10:41] indicators for communities as a whole not immune to an occasional strategy of course [2:10:46] but by and large these are positive indicators and mr chair i ask that we i'm able to enter [2:10:52] into the record studies with these findings by researchers at the university of texas austin [2:10:58] university of arizona the university of north carolina the american immigration council the [2:11:02] center for american progress and the national immigration law center thank you very much [2:11:08] so sanctuary policies again to be clear also does not mean that the federal government [2:11:14] doesn't have the ability to enter into that state or into those cities all sanctuary policies do [2:11:22] is simply affirm that state and or local authorities cannot be co-opted into performing [2:11:29] immigration enforcement as professor vladic explained in his testimony that's because [2:11:35] immigration is a federal responsibility and enforcing it is the job of the federal government [2:11:43] now i know some state and local jurisdictions choose to cooperate but they can't be [2:11:48] forced into it that's been upheld by the courts so while federal agencies continue to carry out [2:11:54] immigration enforcement state and local law enforcement can choose to focus their time their [2:12:00] their finite resources on providing for the needs the safety and well-being of the people living in [2:12:07] their communities as they best determine so let me say that again sanctuary policies do not prevent [2:12:15] ice from going into any state or any city to arrest someone who served time for a violent crime [2:12:22] when they're being released from prison and the federal government is indeed notified [2:12:27] of every single individual booked into a jail or a prison what we're not discussing today [2:12:33] is this administration's failure to live up to their own claim that they're arresting simply the [2:12:38] worst of the worst their own data tells us that the vast majority of the people that have been [2:12:44] picked up by ice and cbp do not have a violent criminal history so i wish we were talking about [2:12:52] that failure instead of trying to distract from this administration's failures by going down [2:12:57] a sanctuary policy misperception rabbit hole my colleagues are free to disagree with these [2:13:05] policies that's the nature of our work here in a democracy and i know that many of them [2:13:11] fundamentally do but the disagreement doesn't make sanctuary policies unlawful and it clearly [2:13:18] doesn't make our communities less safe based on the data that researchers have provided [2:13:24] so i'd like to call out what this debate really is about it's not about public safety because the [2:13:31] evidence shows communities can be safer it's not about the law because courts have upheld sanctuary [2:13:38] policies time and again all the way to the supreme court it's clearly about politics and [2:13:44] scapegoating at a time when americans are asking us to help make their lives better and more affordable [2:13:49] by the way we should be focused on real solutions in that direction not recycling the same tired [2:13:56] misleading talking points sanctuary policies are constitutional they're practical and they allow [2:14:02] local and state officials to do what they do best focus their time their energy and finite resources [2:14:09] on providing for the safety of their communities as they best see fit so let's give the american [2:14:15] people honesty let's end the fear-mongering on these false narratives thank you mr chair [2:14:20] senator cruz thank you mr chairman last week 18-year-old college freshman sheridan gorman [2:14:31] went to the shores of lake michigan to look up at the sky to catch a glimpse of the northern lights [2:14:40] she went searching for light and instead she was met with death as she walked with friends along [2:14:48] chicago's lakefront sheridan gorman went to the shores of lake michigan to look up at the sky to [2:14:50] catch a glimpse of the northern lights she went searching for light and instead she was met with death as she walked with friends along [2:14:50] was shot in the back by a masked coward dressed in black her killer an illegal alien who entered [2:15:01] the united states and remained here to commit murder shielded by chicago's failed sanctuary [2:15:09] city policies ms vaughn is it correct that sheridan's killer had been picked up twice by [2:15:18] law enforcement but was released both times that is my understanding from the news accounts is it [2:15:25] also correct that he was picked up by joe biden's border patrol in 2023 but the [2:15:29] then released to roam freely within the united states yes is it also correct that chicago police [2:15:37] officers arrested him for shoplifting at macy's in 2023 but then released him on the ridiculous [2:15:44] assumption that he would return for his court date yes according to reports sheridan's killer [2:15:52] has been hiding in chicago a city that gleefully has become a sanctuary for illegal aliens [2:16:00] criminal shoplifters and now cold-blooded murderers [2:16:04] for nearly three years just today the mayor of chicago debuted a garbage truck with the large [2:16:13] words in all caps abolish ICE ms vaughn the sanctuary policies make american communities [2:16:23] safer or do they enable illegal alien criminals they only protect criminal aliens they do not [2:16:31] make our city safer it is the fundamental duty of government to protect its citizens and yet [2:16:40] this tragic scenario is really important to me and i hope that you will take this opportunity to [2:16:42] repeating itself in sanctuary jurisdictions again and again and again. [2:16:46] Mr. Abraham, thank you in particular for being here today. [2:16:53] Thank you. [2:16:55] I want to extend my deepest condolences. [2:16:58] Appreciate it. [2:16:59] I also appreciate Ranking Member Welsh and Mr. Padilla for recognizing that. [2:17:04] What I don't understand is why my senator of Illinois, Mr. Durbin, [2:17:09] haven't heard two words from him toward me. [2:17:11] But, sorry, I want to take your time. [2:17:14] Kind of amazing. [2:17:15] I think it is a fair question to ask. [2:17:17] Kind of happy he's calling it quits. [2:17:20] To the extent you feel comfortable sharing, can you tell us about Katie? [2:17:29] Katie was great. [2:17:30] She had this amazing personality. [2:17:32] She was sharp as a tack. [2:17:34] Her wit was unbelievable. [2:17:36] She was going to be, wherever she was going to go was going to be amazing. [2:17:40] She had a great sense of reading rooms, how to behave herself in those situations. [2:17:45] Ever since she was little, she was a terrific athlete. [2:17:48] Water polo, swam. [2:17:49] Had so many different friends, friend groups. [2:17:54] Always was, you know, just an amazing support for other friends and family. [2:18:01] So, to me, this world in Illinois is a worse place now without her. [2:18:05] I'm the father of two teenage daughters. [2:18:08] I won't even think about that. [2:18:10] Don't even do it. [2:18:11] It's awful. [2:18:12] I can only imagine the pain and grief that you will suffer your entire life. [2:18:19] I'm in the grave with her. [2:18:20] It's amazingly, it's amazing I can't put it in words. [2:18:25] She was 20 years old when she was killed by an illegal alien drunk driver. [2:18:30] That's right. [2:18:31] You know, just this week, there's a clip of Democrat Senator Chris Murphy on TV being interviewed. [2:18:44] And he says, the people that we care about most, and he's speaking about Senate Democrats, are illegal aliens. [2:18:56] You know, there's an old line that a gaffe is when a politician tells the truth. [2:19:04] Mr. Abraham, how does it feel listening to an elected representative say quite proudly that the people he cares most about, [2:19:16] and he was speaking for every Democrat senator, he was saying the people we care most about are illegal immigrants. [2:19:23] How does that feel? [2:19:24] Look, that's an indictment on him, I got to say. [2:19:27] I'm not sure where citizens fit in all of this, but at least my experience over the last 14 months is we don't sit at the top. [2:19:39] We are not, our stories are inconvenient, and therefore they're erased and ignored. [2:19:46] So does it surprise me? [2:19:48] No, it doesn't surprise me at all. [2:19:50] I was not, I should be, but in today's world, that doesn't surprise me at all. [2:19:55] And really, just an unserious thing to say, and I'm not sure why anyone in his state would pay attention to that. [2:20:02] The only thing I would respectfully disagree with is the word unserious, because I actually think he was deadly serious. [2:20:09] I think he was telling the truth. [2:20:11] And every Democrat had the chance to dispute it at the State of the Union Address, [2:20:17] when President Trump turned to the entire Democrat and said, [2:20:21] stand if you agree with this, that it is our duty to protect American citizens and not illegal aliens. [2:20:28] And every Democrat, every Democrat in the Senate, every Democrat in the House, sat stone-faced. [2:20:37] And they told the American people, we agree with Chris Murphy. [2:20:41] The people we love the most are the illegal immigrants. [2:20:44] You know, the paper where Sheridan Gorman, the school paper, this week, apologized to her murderer [2:20:57] because the first story correctly described him as an illegal immigrant. [2:21:03] What the hell is wrong with these people? [2:21:06] I'm sorry, Mr. Abraham. [2:21:10] Yeah, it's, they have, they talk about compassion. [2:21:14] I haven't seen any yet. [2:21:16] So it's disgusting in a way. [2:21:19] I really, we should not be left alone. [2:21:24] We should not be left alone on an island because we don't fit a certain ideology. [2:21:28] I am so sorry that certain folks only live by their ideology, their North Star. [2:21:33] And that is a bad life to live. [2:21:36] I think they're missing out on so many other things. [2:21:39] Meanwhile, my daughter's taken away. [2:21:41] I'll never see her again. [2:21:42] I haven't seen her, heard her laugh, hear her talk, haven't grabbed her, hold her. [2:21:46] Fourteen months now. [2:21:48] Does anyone consider that? [2:21:51] I mean, Sheriff, do you even? [2:21:53] I mean, I can't believe what I'm hearing on some of this stuff today. [2:21:55] But, you know, I'm not some politician or bureaucrat. [2:21:59] I'm a dad who had his head down, worked his tail off for his kids, thinking foolishly she was safe in some city. [2:22:09] I know Illinois is corrupt and it's always been awful. [2:22:12] They always had guardrails. [2:22:13] The old school guys did. [2:22:15] And then I hear some of the stuff here. [2:22:18] I'm sorry. [2:22:21] It's awful. [2:22:23] You have nothing to apologize for. [2:22:26] And what happened to your daughter never should have happened to her. [2:22:28] It never should have happened to your family. [2:22:30] God bless you, sir. [2:22:31] It was preventable. [2:22:32] Yes. [2:22:33] I think what everyone's missing here is that was preventable. [2:22:35] That did not have to happen. [2:22:37] He was identified. [2:22:39] They knew who he was. [2:22:40] He was pulled over by local police. [2:22:42] Bang up job on that one. [2:22:44] Let go to do this. [2:22:46] And now we're okay. [2:22:47] You know, Governor Pritzker will say, look, you got justice. [2:22:51] We found him. [2:22:52] If crime happens, you're good to go. [2:22:55] We got him. [2:22:56] And he's incarcerated. [2:22:57] He's incarcerated now. [2:22:59] And my point there is. [2:23:00] Your daughter should still be alive. [2:23:02] My daughter's in a grave. [2:23:03] She'll never see the light of day. [2:23:04] Will he? [2:23:05] Yes. [2:23:06] But what did you do for him? [2:23:08] You did nothing for him. [2:23:09] You left him aimlessly in Illinois. [2:23:11] And now he'll sit in decades, hopefully in jail. [2:23:13] Bang up job Illinois on that one. [2:23:15] They're the people that Democrats care the most about. [2:23:18] And I don't even care. [2:23:19] It's not even ideology for me. [2:23:21] It's so simple that it's beyond my comprehension why we sit here and deflect and deceive. [2:23:28] Call it what it is. [2:23:29] I'm sorry. [2:23:30] Thank you, sir. [2:23:31] Senator Hirono. [2:23:32] Last year, the Trump administration started trying to condition federal grants, whether cities and counties support federal immigration enforcement. [2:23:45] This is a question for Professor Vladeck. [2:23:47] They tried conditioning FEMA emergency preparedness funding. [2:23:52] They tried conditioning Department of Transportation infrastructure funding. [2:23:57] This regime has a propensity to tie. [2:24:00] Various kinds of funding to various ideological positions that this regime takes. [2:24:06] By the way, the regime keeps losing in court. [2:24:09] Professor Vladeck, why does Trump keep losing in court and trying to withhold funding for these other very important programs that our communities rely upon? [2:24:20] Well, Senator, I think the short answer is because, as the Supreme Court has said for decades, there are four different conditions that federal spending conditions have to satisfy to be constitutional. [2:24:30] And the conditions that the Trump administration has imposed have violated centers somewhere between two and three of them, depending upon which condition we're talking about. [2:24:40] Name one condition that they've violated. [2:24:42] So, I mean, first of all, the conditions have to be clearly expressed in law. [2:24:47] An executive order that interprets a statute to allow the president to impose a condition is not clearly expressing that condition in law. [2:24:54] The condition has to be substantially related to the purpose of the funds. [2:24:59] And then the third category is some of the grant cancellations and some of the spending cancellations are seemingly First Amendment retaliation. [2:25:14] So they run into the third problem. [2:25:16] Everyone should understand that executive orders, which is how this president wants to run the country, apparently, in addition to taking us into an undeclared, therefore illegal war, is by executive order. [2:25:28] That is not law. [2:25:30] And that is why there are over 500 lawsuits that have been filed by various entities, organizations, states to prevent this regime from its continuing lawlessness. [2:25:41] So let me go. [2:25:43] In fact, the courts require things like how about evidence? [2:25:47] Thank goodness the courts still require factual evidence to to in order for the courts to to go along with this regime. [2:25:56] Again, for. [2:25:59] Professor Vladeck, local law enforcement already have a lot of important missions. [2:26:05] They respond to mental health challenges, missing children, wildlife encounters. [2:26:10] They perform welfare checks, direct traffic, provide first aid and conduct search and rescue. [2:26:18] They help the public during natural and manmade disasters. [2:26:22] And right now, Hawaii law enforcement officers are helping our North Shore communities dig out from a massive flood. [2:26:29] That is what local law enforcement does. [2:26:31] Of course, that is all in addition to preventing and responding to crime and ensuring public safety. [2:26:40] Professor Vladeck, local law enforcement, as I mentioned, does a lot of things. [2:26:45] And for the for this, they require the trust of the community. [2:26:50] So in your view, are they also required by either federal law or the Constitution to enforce federal immigration law in order to everything that they do? [2:27:01] They already do on behalf of the community. [2:27:03] So they're not required to, Senator. [2:27:05] And indeed, I'm not sure they can be compelled to. [2:27:07] But if I might briefly, I think that the relevant point is that different localities are going to have different priorities. [2:27:13] And those priorities are going to vary based upon who the populace is, based upon what happens in that locality. [2:27:20] The New York City and a small town in Montana are not going to have the same law enforcement priorities. [2:27:25] And so part of what this constitutional structure recognizes for better or for worse. [2:27:30] And I'm not here to suggest that this is what I would have chosen if it were up to me. [2:27:34] Is that local governments are in a better position to make those calls. [2:27:38] They're more accountable to their elected to their to their populaces. [2:27:42] And that the federal government doesn't have the power to tell local governments what their policy choices ought to be. [2:27:48] This is for Sheriff Birkin. [2:27:50] Thank you. [2:27:51] The president's obsession with deportations isn't making America Americans safer. [2:27:57] In fact, just look at what ISIS is doing in Minnesota. [2:28:01] In Chicago and other places. [2:28:03] And it is terrorizing communities and further eroding the relationship between immigrant communities and law enforcement. [2:28:11] Sheriff Birkin, what is the importance of trust with local law enforcement? [2:28:14] As long as we're talking about how important that is to enable local law enforcement to provide public safety. [2:28:23] Madam Senator, it is critically important that we secure and maintain that level of trust with our public. [2:28:30] It's impossible for my deputies to do the job that we do. [2:28:33] Day in and day out, as you already articulated, we do a number of things and we provide a number of services to the community. [2:28:41] But when that trust is broken, then we are unable to provide services. [2:28:46] We're unable to solve crimes as effectively as we would like to. [2:28:50] And unfortunately, what we've seen play out over the past few months with ICE and CBP coming into our communities. [2:28:59] It has eroded that trust and has dismantled our trust. [2:29:02] It has dismantled our ability to be successful in combating crime. [2:29:06] And by the way, that trust takes time to build. [2:29:09] Yes, it does. [2:29:10] So, Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a Perspectives on Politics article entitled, quote, [2:29:18] How Interior Immigration Enforcement Affects Trust in Law Enforcement, end quote. [2:29:24] Which finds a significant decrease in trust of local public and police and sheriffs when they support federal immigration enforcement. [2:29:32] Thank you. [2:29:33] Thank you. [2:29:35] That will conclude the hearing. [2:29:38] Written questions for the record can be submitted until Wednesday, April 1st at 5 p.m. [2:29:43] We ask the witnesses to submit their responses within two weeks. [2:29:46] So by Wednesday, April 15th at 5 p.m., I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today. [2:29:51] The hearing is adjourned. [2:29:52] Mr. Chairman, I want to submit a letter. [2:29:54] We're going to be unadjourned for a second. [2:29:56] The ranking member has – what do you want to – [2:29:58] I have a letter from the Law Enforcement Immigration Task Force. [2:30:04] So I'd like to – [2:30:05] Please submit to the record. [2:30:06] Without objection. [2:30:07] Thank you. [2:30:08] Thank you. [2:30:09] We're adjourned.