JUST IN: House Judiciary Committee Holds Hearing About Fraud With Testimony From Nick Shirley

[0:00] without objection the chair is authorized to declare recess at any time we welcome everybody [0:04] to today's hearing and i mean everybody who's in here and everybody who will come in here [0:09] is welcome to come in here and participate and watch and participate orderly but our hearing [0:17] is on fraud and theft of taxpayer dollars i now recognize a gentle woman from florida [0:22] ms lee to lead us in the pledge of allegiance thank you i now recognize myself for an opening [0:50] statement today's hearing will examine the widespread and outrageous amount of fraud [0:57] taking place in and around minneapolis minnesota minnesota has lost billions of dollars in state [1:02] administered and federally funded programs due to organized fraud fraud networks operating in [1:08] minnesota dating back more than a decade have submitted over nine billion dollars that's a [1:13] billion with b in false claims some high profile cases in minnesota include organizations and [1:20] programs such as feeding our future early intensive developmental and behavioral intervention [1:25] housing stabilization services and [1:28] programs such as motor vehicle and performance education [1:43] integrated community support created community supports now we're going to watch a video [1:49] it's welfare fraud it's all about the daycare they estimate as much as a hundred million dollars [1:55] a year is being stolen by shady daycare center operators so how much money are we talking about [2:01] stolen from the american taxpayer well in excess of a billion dollars ripping off state-run programs [2:07] intended to feed low-income kids house the disabled [2:10] children at? Do you know where the children are at? Where are the children at in these daycare [2:15] centers? I don't think. Are the children here today? No. No children? Yeah. So this is Quality [2:21] Learing Center. Hello, we'd like to ask where the money's going. Attorney General Keith Ellison [2:29] was focused on one thing and one thing only, and that was keeping these folks in business. [2:34] When do you think Governor Walz knew about this fraud? From the very beginning. What happened [2:38] here in Minnesota that allowed this fraud to materialize? The people at the highest levels [2:45] of responsibility in the government of the state of Minnesota looked the other way. Fraud within [2:53] these programs have involved false claims, fictitious providers, and services not rendered, [3:00] highlighting the need for stronger verification, monitoring, and enforcement to protect taxpayer [3:05] funds. These fraudulent actions have robbed taxpayer funds intended to feed children, [3:11] support individuals with autism, provide health care, and protect children. [3:13] housing for low-income and disabled Americans, and deliver health care to Medicaid recipients. [3:18] Since 2021, the DOJ has charged 98 defendants in Minnesota-based fraud cases, [3:24] 85 of whom are of Somali descent. Of the 98 defendants, 64 have been convicted. [3:31] DOJ has now undertaken extensive investigative action, which includes issuing over 1,750 subpoenas, [3:38] executing more than 130 search warrants, and conducting more than 1,000 witness interviews. [3:43] Since the beginning of the pandemic, DOJ has been conducting more than 1,000 search warrants, [3:44] executing more than 1,000 witness interviews. Since the start of the Trump administration, [3:46] the federal response to fraud in Minnesota has intensified following a series of high-profile [3:51] cases involving state-administered, federally-funded programs. One of the initial instances of high-profile [3:57] fraud in the state involved the nonprofit Feeding Our Future, which was at the center of a $250 [4:03] million COVID-19-related fraud scheme. As part of the scheme, fraudsters exploited Department [4:09] of Agriculture USDA food programs designed to provide meals for children. Federal prosecutors [4:15] ultimately condemned the fraud scheme, and the state-administered, federally-funded programs. [4:15] Ultimately convicted 57 defendants and described the scheme as the nation's largest COVID-era fraud. [4:22] The issue gained renewed national attention in late December 2025 following a widely shared [4:28] YouTube video posted by one of our witnesses, Mr. Nick Shirley. Mr. Shirley's work highlighted [4:33] suspected fraud in Minnesota child care programs. His reporting prompted federal authorities to [4:39] intensify investigations, expand oversight, and coordinate multi-agency enforcement efforts. [4:44] A week ago today, Mr. Shirley, [4:46] a former NYPD officer, released a second video that documented alleged fraud in the transportation [4:50] industry intended to provide rides for children, the disabled, and the elderly. Mr. Shirley uncovered [4:57] companies with questionable addresses and vehicles intended to transport children, the disabled, and [5:01] the elderly that remained idle for extended periods of time. We look forward to hearing from Mr. Shirley [5:08] about what he was able to uncover. But how did we get here? Hopefully, another witness, Scott Dexter, [5:14] a former fraud investigator for the Minnesota Department of Human Services, can shed some light on his current [5:18] light on that for us. And I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that this massive wave of fraudulent [5:22] activity didn't just have the consequence of ripping off taxpayers. It has drastically impacted [5:27] legitimate organizations that are truly helping their neighbors. Jennifer Larson is here today [5:32] to share her story about how this massive fraud has crippled her organization that serves autistic [5:37] children. We'd like to think that these fraudsters will one day face justice, but it appears that is [5:43] not always the case. For example, Yasmin Ali, a daycare and home health care owner charged with [5:49] stealing millions from Minnesota taxpayers after being granted bail, disappeared before a trial [5:55] and has not been located since. That was more than a decade ago. The tentacles of this fraud ring are [6:01] widespread and include crimes other than fraud. For example, the aforementioned Yasmin Ali. Her [6:08] brother, Adaris Abdul Ali, pleaded guilty in 2009 to lying to a federal grand jury about his [6:14] knowledge of a group of young Somali men in Minneapolis who traveled to Somalia to fight [6:18] with al-Shabaab, a foreign terrorist organization. [6:20] We can also consider the fact that at least $700 million in U.S. cash transported via passenger [6:28] luggage through Minneapolis' St. Paul International Airport. The incidents are all currently under [6:34] federal investigation, with the majority carried by couriers traveling to Somalia, other African [6:39] nations, and the Middle East. While no definitive links to funding terrorism have been established [6:44] yet, we know that hundreds of millions of dollars in cash are being transported to areas where [6:48] foreign terrorist organizations are active. What could possibly happen if this fraud ring was [6:52] passed? [6:52] A whistleblower has alleged that TSA personnel at MSP repeatedly identified and flagged routine [7:01] encounters with Somali men carrying large suitcases filled with bundled cash often exceeding [7:06] a million dollars. During an interview, a former TSA agent at MSP from 2016 to 2021, [7:13] now a whistleblower, Liz Jackson, noted that she saw, quote, [7:16] suitcases packed with millions of dollars in cash moving through MSP again and again, [7:21] carried by the same type of [7:23] couriers, which raised questions that she feels law enforcement and political leaders still haven't [7:27] answered, close quote. Jaxa further explained her repeated encounters with Somali men carrying [7:33] suitcases packed with cash and, in one case, a bag filled with new passports. According to Jaxa, [7:40] the volume, consistency, and profile of the transactions she witnessed were well beyond [7:44] ordinary or everyday behavior. Treasury Secretary Scott Besant has noted that the department is [7:50] currently investigating where Minnesota's taxpayer dollars are being placed. Additional [7:55] reports show that Somali individuals in the United States send roughly $215 million abroad each year. [8:02] On January 9, Secretary Besant indicated that the Treasury Department's Financial Crimes [8:07] Enforcement Network, FinCEN, informed four money transfer organizations that they are under [8:11] investigation for their roles in the fraud scheme involving the theft of funds from social services [8:16] in Minnesota. He also indicated that some banks in Minnesota are being investigated by the [8:21] Internal Revenue Service, the Civil Enforcement Division, for allegations related to money [8:25] laundering. As you can see, there's much to unpack surrounding these numerous fraud schemes taking [8:30] place in and around Minneapolis, Minnesota. I would be remiss if I didn't suggest and urge [8:37] additional investigation throughout this entire country. I know that in my home state of Arizona, [8:43] our Democrat Attorney General came into office and quickly said that there had been $2.5 million [8:51] in fraud just in the Medicaid program alone, and in recent studies released over the last year in [8:58] Arizona, it's been suggested that as much as $7.2 billion in fraud annually take place in Arizona's [9:05] similar programs. So this is not just a Minnesota issue, but it just happens to be at the forefront [9:12] of why we're here today. I look forward to today's hearing, and I thank the members and [9:16] witnesses for taking part. Now yield back and recognize the ranking member, Ms. McBath, for her [9:21] nobleness. [9:21] Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for convening this hearing this morning to talk about the harm [9:28] that fraud can cause, and thank you for everyone that is here this morning to testify. It's so [9:33] necessary that we continue to investigate and prosecute all forms of fraud, including government [9:40] fraud, which can turn many into victims. That is because a person committing fraud against a [9:47] government program steals from all of us as taxpayers and abuses the initial purpose of [9:53] these programs. [9:53] They harm the organizations that need these programs to operate, and most importantly, they harm the [9:59] people that the program is designed to help. Whether we're talking about a program that feeds [10:04] school children, helps seniors find housing, helps people overcome addiction, or provides services [10:11] to address disabilities, it is critical that the dollars that we invest in these programs actually [10:17] serve the purposes that we have in mind when we, the lawmakers, created them. That's why the Department of [10:25] department of justice has always combated fraud including prosecuting dozens of people for [10:33] perpetrating fraudulent schemes in minnesota in 2021 and under the biden administration [10:40] but prosecutions are not enough to combat or prevent fraud so the biden administration [10:46] also established a covet 19 fraud enforcement task force and increased oversight of programs [10:52] that were being targeted by fraudsters minnesota lawmakers have also taken steps to reduce fraud [10:59] in their state strengthening the state's ability to stop potential fraud sooner and improving [11:05] investigations to hold those scammers accountable but president trump has taken a very different [11:10] approach to fraud just last week trump added a quite a few fraudsters to his growing list of [11:16] people that he has pardoned not because they are deserving a second chance but because they hired [11:21] his friend [11:23] back channeled a donation or served his political purposes he has pardoned many people charged or [11:30] convicted of fraud and other financial crimes wiping away more than a billion dollars in money [11:36] that would otherwise have gone to victims of crime president trump has also fired inspectors general [11:43] instructed his doj to stop enforcing bribery statutes [11:47] and gutted the offices that investigate white collar crime that is how we know this hearing [11:54] is not really about fraud it is about trust the trump administration does not want you to trust [12:02] these programs because if you don't trust them they're easier to destroy them they do not want [12:08] you to trust entire communities because if you don't trust them they're easier to intimidate [12:14] but we cannot let that happen we will continue to fight for robust and responsible oversight [12:21] and for the continuation of initiatives that make all of our communities safe and well-planned to [12:26] safer, healthier, and more resilient. [12:30] Across the country, there are daycares, schools, hospitals, treatment centers, research facilities, [12:36] nursing homes, fire departments, police departments, airports, and more that all depend on state [12:44] or federal funding, not just to help those in need, but to serve every single one of [12:49] us. [12:50] If President Trump succeeds in an attempt to freeze childcare funding across five states, [12:58] which is temporarily blocked by a court order, the effects would ripple across families and [13:04] businesses throughout our economy. [13:07] It would affect more than 500,000 children, and these are children that are not just within [13:13] the state of Minnesota, but 500,000 children, their parents, the businesses and organizations [13:19] where those parents work, and the many people who depend on those businesses to fulfill [13:25] needs in those communities. [13:28] That's the fallout from justice. [13:29] We have just one program addressing one need across only five states. [13:35] If President Trump continues this assault on critical programs, the harms could be far [13:41] greater. [13:43] These latest attacks come on top of the cuts that President Trump and congressional Republicans [13:48] already forced through, which are taking healthcare from 10 million Americans and reducing food [13:55] assistance to over 40 million Americans, including many, many children. [14:01] We don't have to choose between programs that are susceptible to fraud and nothing [14:06] at all. [14:08] With proper oversight, we can make sure that every American is fed, that everyone can [14:15] access housing and medical treatment, and that our daycares and our schools can keep [14:20] guiding our children towards a better future. [14:24] I look forward to hearing more today about how we can achieve this goal. [14:28] I thank our witnesses for being here at NIU. [14:31] The Vice President. [14:32] The Vice President. [14:33] The Vice President. [14:34] The Vice President. [14:35] Mr. President, I recognize the Chairman of the full committee, Mr. Jordan. [14:36] No, I don't recognize him right now. [14:38] But I will recognize the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Raskin, for his opening [14:42] statement. [14:44] Thank you kindly, Mr. Chairman. [14:46] Thank you to all of our witnesses for joining us. [14:48] In a just world, the Judiciary Committee today would be investigating why a masked ICE agent [14:54] shot three times in cold blood and killed an unarmed citizen, a 37-year-old mom, Renée [15:02] Nicole Goode. [15:03] We'd be investigating why Trump's DOJ is harassing and investigating Renee's wife instead of investigating her killer. [15:14] We'd be asking why ICE agents are trained in basic CPR, but 911 tapes have shown none of the agents performing CPR on Ms. Good. [15:22] They left her bleeding alone in her car for almost three minutes and definitively rejected the help of a man who came forward and identified himself as a doctor. [15:32] We'd be investigating why in another Minnesota case, ICE agents deployed tear gas under the car of a family of eight people, [15:41] including a six-month-old, a two-year-old, and two kids with severe asthma who were just trying to get home from a basketball game. [15:49] The baby stopped breathing, and his mom had to administer CPR as they desperately waited for medical help to arrive. [15:57] But our colleagues want to talk about fraud in Minnesota, fraud that was already being investigated. [16:02] And prosecuted under the last administration. [16:07] It is true that social services fraud, serious fraud, occurred in Minnesota. [16:12] That's why under President Biden, the Department of Justice opened multiple criminal investigations [16:18] that to date have already resulted in more than 90 people being charged and 64 people being convicted of federal criminal offenses. [16:27] Indeed, Minnesota lawmakers acted to root out and prevent fraud. [16:32] That's why last year, the Minnesota Legislature passed legislation to empower the governor to cut off payments or to claw back funds whenever fraud is detected. [16:45] And that's why Governor Walz appointed the first-ever Director of Program Integrity to make sure the state is effectively investigating and preventing fraud and corruption in their programs. [16:57] The fraud in Minnesota was discovered not by a right-wing social media influencer, [17:02] who's been harassing people in communities all over Minnesota in recent weeks, [17:07] but by the hard work of real local investigative journalists, brave whistleblowers, and state and federal auditors. [17:16] It is this fraud, which we must take seriously, is not unlike the $2.5 billion breathtaking Medicare fraud scheme [17:27] uncovered last year in the home state of the chairman of this subcommittee, as he himself mentioned. [17:35] Where the massive Covid-19 unemployment assistance fraud scheme uncovered in Chairman Jordan's home state of Ohio. [17:38] Fraud is endemic in government all over the world. [17:48] There are fraudsters attacking our public institutions, trying to undermine them and rip them off. [17:56] Even our president has been convicted, of 34 accounts of criminal fraud by a jury of his peers in New York, related to the fraudulent payments he made. [18:05] published account of criminal fraud by a jury of his peers in New York, related to the fraudulent payments he made. [18:06] made to porn star Stormy Daniels and also civilly convicted in New York for [18:12] different kinds of real estate fraud. Fraud is not headquartered in one state [18:18] or one municipality, much less one ethnic, racial, or religious community. But [18:25] President Trump couldn't resist the temptation to use fraud in Minnesota as [18:30] an occasion to mobilize the power of the federal government to bully and [18:35] intimidate first and second generation Somali Americans who live in that state. [18:39] Many of the people convicted in the fraud schemes were of Somali ancestry. So [18:45] under the pretext of cracking down on a fraud that had already been discovered, [18:50] investigated, and prosecuted, Trump surged federal immigration officers to [18:55] Minnesota and aimed them at the Somali American communities, calling the people [19:00] who live there repeatedly garbage. This is despite the [19:05] fact that the fraud is still happening. [19:06] It is a complete non sequitur, obviously, to send immigration agents to conduct [19:12] fraud investigations. And the deployment of law enforcement resources against an [19:17] entire ethnic community after the criminal prosecution of a small group of [19:22] its members is to promote the sinister ideas of collective guilt and guilt by [19:29] association, two doctrines that are emphatically rejected in Anglo American [19:36] jurisprudence and by our courts. The community targeted in Minneapolis is made up, [19:42] incidentally, overwhelmingly of U.S. citizens. 95% of Somalis in Minnesota are U.S. citizens, [19:49] including 58% of whom were born in the United States. Well, what is the Trump [19:54] administration's actual record on fraud? Well, let's see. President Trump pardoned [19:59] the big-time drug dealer and convicted fraudster Juan Orlando Hernandez, the former president of [20:06] Congress, sparing him a 45-year criminal sentence after he brought in 400 tons of cocaine into our [20:15] country. That's 800,000 pounds of cocaine that he said, quote, we are going to stuff up the [20:24] nostrils of the gringos. And Trump pardoned him. And if you're interested in that particular [20:31] sweetheart deal, that would be a great subject for a hearing, Mr. Chairman. Just last week, again, [20:36] President granted pardons to more convicted fraudsters. Julio Herrera Velutini was scheduled [20:42] to be sentenced this month for participation in a political corruption and fraud scheme [20:47] alongside his co-defendant, the former governor of Puerto Rico, Wanda Vasquez. [20:51] In late 2024, Mr. Herrera was facing felony bribery charges in a different case. His [20:57] daughter donated $2.5 million to the Mega Inc. Super PAC. Then in May 2025, Mr. Herrera's lawyer, [21:06] Ron, President Trump's legal team, negotiated a deal allowing him to plead guilty to a trivial [21:13] misdemeanor offense instead. Several months later, Mr. Herrera's daughter donated another million [21:18] dollars to Mega Inc. And what do you know? President Trump generously granted Mr. Herrera a [21:25] full and unconditional pardon just last week. They're making a fraud out of the pardon process [21:31] in America with pay-to-play rules as they pardon recidivist, [21:36] pardoned, unrepentant fraudsters. Well, indeed, in total, President Trump has pardoned more than [21:45] 1,600 people, depriving victims, survivors, and taxpayers of an estimated, check this out, [21:51] $1.55 billion in restitution and fines owed to us, the American people, while shockingly, [22:00] because other presidents didn't do this, but Trump did, while shockingly allowing corporate [22:06] fraudsters and tax cheats to keep [22:09] all of their ill-gotten gains. This is a massive and unprecedented swindle from working-class people [22:17] and crime victims as the administration gives all of these ill-gotten gains right back to the [22:24] criminal fraudsters who stole the money in the first place. And finally, Mr. Chairman, [22:29] President Trump has dismantled the infrastructure that actually prosecutes white-collar crime and [22:37] fraud in America. Actually, [22:38] roots out, [22:39] waste, fraud, and abuse. The Trump DOJ gutted the public integrity section at DOJ that prosecutes [22:46] government officials who break the law. And nearly a year ago, his DOJ suspended enforcement of the [22:53] Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which prohibits foreign bribery, saying all bets are off. He's [22:59] gutted the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which is the first and the only agency devoted [23:05] solely at the federal level to protect American consumers [23:08] against being cheated by big financial corporations. [23:12] The CFPB delivered $21 billion dollars back to more than 200 million Americans who were victims [23:19] of fraud and other predatory business practices. And the administration has been gutting the CFPB [23:26] because they are on the side of corporate fraud and white-collar crime. That's the truth of what's [23:33] going on there. They fired 17 inspectors general. [23:37] the independent government watchdogs whose job it is actually to root out waste, fraud, abuse, [23:43] and corruption and left 28 IG offices without Senate-confirmed leadership at all, allowing the [23:50] corruption and the fraud to run rampant. So if we're going to have a hearing about fraud in [23:56] America, Mr. Chairman, let's do it. Let's take in the full scope of what's taking place in our [24:02] country. I yield back to you. Gentlemen, yields back. I now recognize the chairman of the entire [24:06] committee, Mr. Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll be brief. I want to thank our witnesses for [24:10] being here. Estimates are potentially as high as $9 billion we're looking at here in what appears [24:19] to be a decade-long scam, fraud. I mean, I always look at one program I talked about a couple weeks [24:26] ago in an oversight hearing was this Feeding Our Future program, where Americans' hard-earned tax [24:33] dollars, taking that money and supposedly providing meals to children, [24:37] the problem was there were no meals and no kids. They're just stuffing it in their pockets. So [24:42] I think this is a great hearing to have. We appreciate the witnesses and the work that [24:46] they've done, Ms. Larson and the work she does in actually making a difference, doing a legitimate [24:50] program, Mr. Shirley for uncovering this, and Mr. Dexter and others who are here. So with that, [24:56] I would yield back and look forward to hearing from our witnesses and the hearing itself. [24:59] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I recognize myself for just some UCs. The first one is President Joe [25:04] Biden commutes sentences for two of Chicago's area—Chicago area— [25:08] most notorious fraudsters. North Dakota judge blasts Biden for setting fraudsters free. [25:18] Biden commutes roughly 1,500 sentences, pardons 39, and big single-day act of clemency, [25:26] including fraudsters. Illinois lawmakers furious after Biden commutes sentences of state fraudsters. [25:34] Without objection. And now— [25:37] Mr. Chairman, could I enter some as well? [25:39] Yeah, please. [25:39] Thank you much. This UC request is from ABC. [25:44] News, January 20, 2026, titled Trump's Pardons Forgive Financial Crimes That Came With Hundreds [25:51] of Millions of Dollars in Punishment. This one is Arizona has recovered just 5% of taxpayer dollars [25:59] lost in a $2.5 billion Medicaid fraud scheme. That's ProPublica. Columbus Dispatch. Columbus [26:06] mother and daughter among 15 indicted in pandemic unemployment assistance fraud scheme. And finally, [26:13] a Minnesota— [26:15] A Minnesota fraud scheme timeline from NPR News. Fraud investigations stretched across Walz's tenure. [26:22] Without objection. And now, without objection, all of the opening statements will be included in the record, and we will introduce today's witnesses. [26:32] Mr. Scott Dexter. Mr. Dexter is a former law enforcement officer, having served for 28 years. He also served with the Minnesota Department of Human Services Office of Inspector General, [26:43] where he investigated fraud in the child care assistance program. Thank you, Mr. Dexter. [26:48] Thank you, Ms. Dexter, for being here. [26:49] And Ms. Jennifer Larson. Ms. Larson is the founder and chief executive officer of the [26:54] Holland Center for Autism, a clinic that provides services to children and young adults with [26:59] autism. She started the Holland Center to serve families like hers that were not receiving [27:04] adequate services and support elsewhere. Thank you, Ms. Larson, for being here today. [27:09] Mr. Nick Shirley is an independent journalist. His recent investigations and videos have [27:13] shed light on the scale of fraud and public benefit programs in Minnesota that are currently [27:18] ongoing. [27:20] And thank you, Mr. Shirley, for being here. [27:22] And Mr. Dylan Hedler-Gaudette. Mr. Hedler-Gaudette is the acting vice president of policy and [27:27] government affairs at the Project on Government Oversight. POGO is a nonprofit organization [27:32] that investigates alleged wrongdoing by the governor. Thank you, Mr. Hedler-Gaudette, [27:36] for being here with us today. [27:39] We welcome all our witnesses and thank them for appearing today. We will begin by swearing [27:43] you in. Would you please rise and raise your right hand? [27:49] Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the testimony you are about to give is [27:53] true and correct to the best of your knowledge? [27:54] Information and beliefs will help you, God. [27:55] Thank you. [27:56] Thank you. [27:58] You may be seated. [27:59] The record will reflect that the witnesses have all answered in the affirmative. [28:04] And at the instruction of Mr. Hedler-Gaudette, I wanted to let all members of the panel know [28:09] that when you have a question for him, please say his name so he knows that you are addressing [28:15] him, please. [28:18] I want the witnesses to know that your written testimony will be entered into the record [28:21] in its entirety. [28:22] Accordingly, we ask that you summarize your testimony in five minutes. [28:26] And we will begin now with Mr. Dexter. [28:28] You are recognized for your five-minute statement. [28:31] Thank you. [28:32] Chair, members of the community, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. [28:37] My name is Scott Dexter. [28:38] I am a retired law enforcement investigator with 28 years of experience, most of it spent [28:43] conducting criminal and financial fraud investigations, with experience in surveillance operations. [28:49] In 2013, after retiring from law enforcement, I joined the Minnesota Department of Human [28:54] Services as part of a newly created investigative unit. [28:56] Thank you. [28:57] I am the Attorney General for the Office of Inspector General. [28:59] Our mission was straightforward. [29:01] Identify and investigate fraud within the Child Care Assistance Program, known as CCAP. [29:06] I was one of the original four investigators hired, all of us former law enforcement professionals [29:11] with backgrounds in criminal investigations. [29:14] Our cases were not selected based on the name of the center, the owner, or the community [29:18] it served. [29:19] They were selected based solely on tips, complaints, and the amount of CCAP funding being paid [29:24] out. [29:26] The highest funded centers were reviewed first. [29:27] Thank you. [29:28] and many of those centers were referred to us through the public tip line or by licensing [29:32] inspectors who observed activity inconsistent with a legitimate daycare operation. What we [29:39] found was deeply concerning. Many of these centers operated out of commercial spaces [29:43] with windows totally covered, no visible play areas, and very few children ever present. [29:50] Through surveillance, data collection, and review of attendance and billing records, [29:54] we repeatedly documented patterns of overbilling, non-existent attendance, [29:59] and in some cases, children being signed in for hours they were never actually at the center. [30:04] Our investigative process was thorough and methodical. We collected licensing and billing [30:09] data, installed covert surveillance cameras, reviewed hours of video, identified parents [30:15] and employees, and calculated estimated overpayments based on actual attendance. [30:20] Completed cases were then turned over to the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension [30:24] for search warranties. [30:25] We then looked at the number of cases, the number of cases, the number of cases, the number of cases, [30:27] and the number of cases, and the number of cases, and the number of cases, and the number of cases. [30:29] As our investigations progressed, we noticed a trend. Many of the centers receiving the highest [30:35] levels of CCAP funding were owned and operated by Somali individuals, and the families served [30:41] were predominantly Somali. This was not the basis for selecting cases, but it did become the basis [30:47] for accusations against us. We were labeled as racially biased, despite the fact that our case [30:53] selection was driven entirely by funding data. [30:57] An outside review was launched into our investigative practices. We were questioned about how we [31:01] selected centers and how we conducted surveillance. Following that review, new restrictions were [31:06] placed on our work, including mandatory panel reviews before we could move forward with [31:11] investigations. Investigators were also pulled from conducting new or current investigations [31:16] in order to enter data from all previous complaints received by DHS into a newly created database, [31:22] a process that took nearly a year to complete. These changes significantly hindered our ability [31:27] to do our jobs effectively. Ultimately, in 2019, I chose to retire because the investigative [31:33] process had become so constrained that meaningful work was no longer possible. [31:39] Through collaboration with federal agencies, including the IRS Criminal Investigation Division, [31:44] Homeland Security, and the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, we learned that [31:48] millions of dollars in cash from the Somali community was being flown out of the Minneapolis-St. [31:53] Paul airport by Somali couriers. At one point, nearly $70 million of that money was spent [31:58] had been documented leaving the country halfway through a single year. Although we could [32:02] not prove that the cash was obtained fraudulently, we strongly suspected that it was. [32:08] We also encountered situations where federal partners were prevented from opening cases [32:13] due to concerns about political sensitivities surrounding the Somali community and the refugee [32:18] resettlement program. These decisions had real consequences, allowing fraud to continue [32:23] unchecked. Throughout our work, we identified several loopholes that made CCAP highly vulnerable [32:29] to fraud. Centers were allowed to bill for the full authorized hours, even when children [32:33] were present for only minutes. Billing records could be submitted up to 30 days later, creating [32:39] opportunities for manipulation. Attendance records were handwritten, unreliable, and [32:44] often incomplete. And despite our recommendations, no biometric attendance systems, no electronic [32:49] submission requirements, and no state-installed security cameras were ever implemented. [32:54] Chair and members, the purpose of my testimony is not to cast blame on any community. It [32:59] is to highlight some of the challenges that we face in our communities. I am a member [33:00] of a community that has systemic weaknesses that allowed large-scale fraud to occur, and [33:03] to emphasize the need for stronger safeguards, better oversight, and investigative processes [33:08] that are allowed to function without political interference. Thank you for your time and [33:13] your commitment to ensuring accountability within publicly funded programs. I am prepared [33:17] to answer any questions that you may have. [33:19] Thank you, Mr. Dexter. And now, we're going to recognize Mr. Hetler-Gaudet for your five [33:27] minutes of opening statement. [33:29] Chairman Biggs, Ranking Member McBath, and members of the House of Representatives, [33:35] staff, and members of the subcommittee, I appreciate the opportunity to testify before [33:39] you today on the important issues of preventing fraud and protecting taxpayer dollars. My [33:45] name is Dylan Hetler-Gaudet, and I am the Acting Vice President of Policy and Government [33:49] Affairs at the Project on Government Oversight. We are a nonpartisan, independent watchdog [33:54] that promotes a more accountable, transparent, and effective federal government. We view [33:59] it as our mission to combat abuse of power and corruption in the federal government, [34:04] which includes working on rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse. I am pleased to be here [34:07] today to speak with you today. [34:08] The unfortunate truth is that the fraud and government program is a fact of life. Since [34:15] the United States government has existed, fraud and government has also existed, or [34:23] much longer than that, in fact. For as long as human beings have been organizing ourselves [34:26] into societies and building institutions to govern those societies, there have always [34:31] been those who will seek to take advantage. This is a harsh but real truth related to [34:37] the human condition, related to our fundamentally fallen and flawed natures. That said, it is [34:44] still incumbent upon you to act. I am proud to be a member of the House of Representatives, [34:45] and it is very striking that we are all doing what we can to prevent fraud, and to hold [34:49] perpetrators of fraud accountable. [34:51] This is especially true when this fraud implements hard-earned taxpayers' dollars and public [34:57] programs and services. This is true whether we talk about the feeding our flood front [35:03] program in Minnesota, or whether we talk about welfare fraud in Mississippi. This is true [35:13] whether we talk about fraud in the context of our politicalthat is perpetrated by a large, [35:18] defense companies in the context of multi-billion dollar contract they have with the defense [35:23] department. The point here is that fraud and the abuse of taxpayer dollars is not related to any [35:30] particular geographic, demographic, or other boundary or characteristic. But why do these [35:37] things happen so much? Mostly they are caused by deep structural flaws, gaps, and weaknesses [35:44] in our system of government. They're also driven by recalcitrance and resistance to change on the [35:50] part of federal agencies. To put it shortly, fraud is a systemic problem and it requires systemic [35:58] solutions. So what are these solutions? I'm pleased to share a few of them with you today. [36:05] We must first look at watchdogs, critical sources of information, and practitioners of oversight [36:13] from within the federal government itself. I'm specifically talking about inspectors general, [36:18] the government accountability office, and whistleblowers. Rather than attacking, firing, [36:25] undermining, and intimidating these individuals and entities as this administration and its [36:30] allies have done, we must first look at the fact that fraud is a systemic problem. [36:31] We must strengthen, preserve, and protect them. We must enact reforms to make sure that IGs and GAO [36:36] can perform their duties effectively and independently. And we must add additional [36:41] safeguards to make sure that whistleblowers can blow the whistle without fear of reprisal or [36:45] retaliation. We must also take a long, hard look at the architecture currently in place for how we [36:53] track, monitor, analyze, and assess federal funding. To put it bluntly, that architecture is broken. [37:00] Key resources like USAspending.gov are in desperate need of overhaul and modernization. We need to [37:07] enhance and improve the infrastructure of federal funding. We need to enhance and improve the [37:07] infrastructure of federal funding. We need to enhance and improve the infrastructure of federal funding. [37:07] We need to enhance and improve the infrastructure of federal funding. We need to enhance and improve the [37:07] quantity, quality, timeliness, and integrity of the data and information we collect on federal [37:12] funding. We need to promote more accountability, transparency, and compliance mechanisms [37:18] within the chain of spending for federal funding. If we don't do this, we will never have a good [37:22] grasp on where funding is going, where it's ending up, who is being helped by it, who is being missed [37:28] by it, and what the ultimate impact is. Lastly, we must enact robust reforms and vigorous enforcement [37:36] to crack down on corruption, cronyism, and conflicts of interest, which turbocharge ways of [37:41] reducing fraud and abuse in the federal government. The presidential pardon is an acute example of this, [37:46] with each of the last two administrations using the pardon power inappropriately to pardon convicted [37:52] fraudsters. We must also promote reforms to crack down on the revolving door between agencies and [37:58] industries and to head off pay-to-play politics, all of which distort and corrupt decisions like [38:04] the award of federal contracts. The takeaway here is simple. Focusing on individuals' [38:12] salacious, scandalous examples of fraud is akin to looking at the symptoms and not looking at the disease, [38:17] or the root causes of the disease. The Project on Government Oversight stands ready, willing, [38:23] and able to work with anyone here who wants to work on root causes and systemic solutions so that [38:28] we can actually get our hands around waste, fraud, abuse, and corruption in the federal government. [38:33] Thank you for having me here today, and I look forward to answering your questions. [38:37] Uh, thank you, Mr. Hedler-Gotta. And I just, I forgot to mention, when you get about 10 seconds left, I'll [38:44] just tip that so you will, so everybody will know that as well. So, Mr. Shirley, you're recognized [38:49] for your opening statement. [38:52] Awesome. [38:53] I'm here today to speak on behalf of all hard-working, law-abiding, tax-paying citizens here inside of the United States. [39:00] I've helped bring to light widespread fraud that's happening inside our nation, and we the people [39:06] have had enough of our hard-earned money going towards fraudsters as if it's no big deal. As I [39:15] speak here, I want to ask everyone a question. How much do we trust when we pay our taxes it's going [39:19] to benefit our nation? People erupted during the Boston Tea Party over just a few percentages as [39:26] they believe they are being taxed without representation. [39:27] Nowadays, we have the representation, but do we trust our representatives? [39:32] My name is Nick Shirley, and I made a 41-minute video that I posted on platforms like X and [39:38] YouTube. My video received over 100 million views, and it created instant change within our government. [39:45] As the federal government launched investigations, and departments such as Health and Human Services [39:50] froze over 185 million dollars in child care funding until businesses can prove they are [39:55] legitimate businesses. I actually became aware of the fraud that was happening in the United States. [40:00] I was in Minnesota in June of 2025 as I was there for a separate video in Minnesota and started [40:06] reaching out to me asking if I was making a video on the fraud. I said, well, what fraud? [40:11] And this lady, she was a real estate agent, and she says, well, I'm having a hard time selling my [40:16] properties because people are curious about these assisted livings that are popping up next door to [40:21] some of the houses that we're buying or the home health care clinics that are popping up, and we [40:24] don't know who's next to these houses that we're trying to sell. And I said, well, I'm not going to [40:31] make a video if I don't have any proof. So therefore, I left Minnesota, and I continued to look for [40:36] fraud in the best way I could. And as I was getting my own information, a man by the name of [40:41] David reached out to me, and he said, hey, I have been investigating this fraud for years now. I have [40:47] been driving by these child care centers. I have never seen a single child, and I have received [40:51] information from the state of Minnesota as to how much money these places are receiving. I said, [40:56] great. Let me come to Minnesota, and we'll make this video about potential fraud that was taking [41:01] place inside of Minnesota. We go to a daycare, and I'm instantly surprised by what we see. We [41:08] arrived, and it was an industrialized building, and there was two daycares registered at that [41:12] daycare at that building. And the first thing I noticed is all the windows are blacked out, [41:19] and there's no footprints in the snow of any children. There's no playgrounds [41:24] or anything that would make it look like it's a child care. But above me, a sign read, [41:29] open 7 a.m. to 10 p.m., but there was nobody there. The doorbell did not [41:34] even work. And then we continued to go to other daycares, and we noticed the same pattern. [41:40] No children, blacked out windows. And one daycare, a learning center, [41:47] spelled quality leering center instead of quality learning center. They had received $1.9 million, [41:54] yet with that $1.9 million, they could not even spell leering right on their sign. [42:00] Governor Walts has said he's been fighting fraud in Minnesota since 2019 [42:04] and said the buck stops with him. However, how long would it take for you to notice [42:09] a million dollars being leaving your bank account and not knowing where it's going? [42:17] That's essentially what had been happening in Minnesota for years as billions of dollars [42:21] has been misplaced. And meanwhile, while people like Governor Tim Walts call people like me [42:27] white supremacist, delusional conspiracy theorist, he actually decided to drop out of reelection [42:32] because I believe of how deep and extensive this fraud is. Thank you very much. Since my reporting, [42:41] HHS department froze over $185 million, and to this day, not a single business has been able to [42:48] prove proof of legitimacy. How fast would you be proving that you are a legitimate business [42:55] if you have children to actually feed and to take care of? You'd be sending that paperwork [42:59] instantly. I made this video to document the widespread fraud that has been taking place, [43:04] as I truly believe all fraud is bad. And people like me, my generation, we're sick of seeing tax [43:16] rates go towards fraud. We just want to have the same opportunities that our fathers and our [43:21] grandparents had. And when you see people making millions of dollars by committing fraud, it upsets [43:26] everybody from all age demographics. And so I hope today we can have a good conversation. And [43:33] I think we can all agree that fraud is bad and that fraud is fraud. And I wish the best for our [43:39] country. And I think that's what needs to be happening is to crack down on all forms of fraud. [43:44] So thank you for having me and God bless the USA. Thank you, Mr. Shirley. [43:48] And now I recognize Ms. Larson for your five-minute opening statement. [43:54] Chairman, ranking member, and members of the committee, thank you for allowing me to speak [43:58] today on this issue. My name is Jennifer Larson. I'm the founder and CEO of Holland Center in [44:04] Minnesota. I've been an autism provider for over 20 years and started the organization for my son. [44:10] I built Holland Center because families with children like mine were desperate for help, [44:14] desperate for services and stability, desperate for somewhere they could trust their child would [44:18] be supported and helped. Not sent home on a bad [44:21] day, not babysat in a classroom and forgotten. We serve the children that don't succeed in public [44:26] school settings. What started as a small program grew over two decades into four locations that [44:32] families rely on, not just for therapy, but for hope, routine, and survival. This work is a labor [44:38] of love for me. Just like me, there are providers all over the state laboring with love to help [44:43] these children. And this week, Holland and other programs all over Minnesota are collapsing, [44:49] not because we committed fraud, but because a crime [44:52] ring was allowed to operate inside Minnesota's service system and the government's clumsy [44:57] response is now destroying legitimate long-standing providers and devastating families [45:02] that we serve. Families come to Holland, they do not have a backstop. Their children often receive [45:07] 30 or more hours of therapy a week. These are not an extravagance. These are medically necessary. [45:13] These children learn to communicate, regulate their emotions, reduce dangerous behaviors, [45:18] and function in daily life. For many parents, therapy determines if they can work, [45:24] consistent staff, and therapy prevents severe behaviors and regression. Structured care keeps [45:29] children and their siblings safe. When services disappear, families do not just simply adjust. [45:34] They face a crisis. For more than two decades, Holland has served hundreds of children year [45:40] after year, employed hundreds of clinicians and staff, operated under yearly on-site audits, [45:45] inspections, and documentation oversight, delivered real services to real children every day. [45:51] We have always complied with everything the system required. [45:55] Yet, with this pandemic, we are still struggling. We are still struggling. We are still struggling. [45:55] Within the last month, the state has withheld over $400,000 in Medicaid funds for my own program, [46:00] and that number grows every single day. I had to infuse my personal funds to survive these weeks, [46:06] but can't do that any longer without payment. Let me be clear. We are a fee-for-service industry. [46:12] When we can't pay our staff, we lose our staff, and children lose care. [46:16] Families do not lose appointments. They lose the people they trust. What happened [46:21] in Minnesota had nothing to do with the ethical, long-standing autism providers. What did happen, [46:26] was organized criminal networks that exploited autism services by opening fake centers, [46:31] billing for children that did not exist, billing for services never delivered, [46:35] and stealing millions of taxpayer dollars in the process. These are not minor compliance issues. [46:42] They are criminal enterprises. Families trusted that the government was protecting [46:46] the integrity of the system. It failed. Now, instead of doing the obvious thing and targeting [46:52] criminal actors, the response has been to freeze everyone's payments. That decision does not punish [46:58] the criminals. It punishes innocent children and families. As Medicaid payments are delayed due to [47:04] prepayment review by an insurance company that is in the business of denying claims, [47:09] providers are reducing hours, cutting staff, and starting to close. Families are scrambling for [47:14] alternatives that don't exist. Children are regressing. Parents are leaving jobs to care [47:18] for their disabled children. Autism therapy cannot be paused without consequences. Loss of services [47:24] can erase years of progress in weeks, and abrupt disruption of services can cause lifelong [47:30] consequences in these children. This is not abstract harm. It is daily trauma for families [47:34] already carrying an extraordinary burden. The simple solution to the problem, send the criminals [47:40] to jail and allow trusted providers with decades of clean audits, verified ownership structures, [47:46] to continue providing prescribed ethical therapy and go back to paying them what we've earned [47:51] and resume paying them on time. I built Holland for 20 years. Families built their lives around [48:03] the care that we provide. All of that is [48:06] at the risk of destruction today, not by fraud, but by clumsy government response that failed to [48:11] distinguish between criminals and caregivers. It treats children with disabilities... [48:15] The gentlelady will suspend. We've got a photographer there. We allow photographers [48:20] in here, but not between the panel, the witnesses, and the members. You will please move. [48:27] Okay. [48:28] Photographer, please move. [48:29] Thank you. [48:29] Like right now. [48:34] Okay. Sorry. All of that is at the risk of destruction. Sorry, can I continue? [48:40] Yeah, please. [48:40] Not by fraud, but the clumsy government response that fails to distinguish between [48:44] criminals and caregivers. It treats children with disabilities as acceptable collateral damage. [48:50] Fraud must be stopped and criminals prosecuted. I'm a taxpayer. I live in Minnesota. This is [48:55] disgusting. But families and children should never pay the price for government failure. [49:00] Thank you. [49:01] We will now proceed under the five-minute rule with questions. [49:10] Chair recognizes the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Tiffany, for five minutes. [49:14] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Besides the work Mr. Shirley has done, [49:17] I want to recognize Powerline, who has done Yeoman's work, exposing this over the last decade, [49:23] what has happened. And I just want to say, Ms. Larson, I live in northern Wisconsin. There's an [49:29] autism school that was started in my community. Where did we visit when we wanted to start that [49:34] a decade ago? We came to Minnesota, where you have been leaders in having good autism programs. And [49:41] I think about the tremendous fraud that has gone on in nutrition programs, housing programs. But is [49:47] anything more heinous than abusing an autism program? [49:55] I can't imagine. It's so hard to believe that people are faking the children have autism [50:04] and stealing money from the government. When I'm sitting here with my 25-year-old non-speaker, [50:09] and now children like my son aren't going to have services because they stole money from [50:14] the government and faked these things. And it's just, it is, like I said, disgusting. [50:18] With what's going on right now, what are the families that you're serving? [50:22] What are the families that you're serving? What are the families that you're serving? [50:22] What are the families that you're serving? What are the families that you're serving? [50:22] What are the families that you're serving? What are they saying? [50:23] They're scared. [50:23] What are they doing? [50:25] Everybody's scared. There are centers that are, programs that have already shut down. [50:30] Staff are leaving. I, this week, asked my staff who will take unpaid leave, [50:35] because we can't keep going like this. I'm, like I said, I'm $400,000 plus in debt now. [50:41] And I'm not sure these are going to get paid back. I went to a bank and they wouldn't back [50:45] the receivable because they said that's not a receivable. If it's prepayment review, [50:49] you may not get it. [50:50] And Ms. Larson, none of this would have happened [50:53] if the fraud did not occur. Is that accurate? [50:56] Yes. [50:57] Mr. Dexter, could have something been done about this earlier? [51:01] Yes. As I stated in my opening testimony, in the years that I worked there, [51:08] we identified how fraud was occurring, the loopholes that existed. And we- [51:14] What were some of the warning signs, Mr. Dexter? [51:17] Well, the fact that part of our job was to go and collect attendance records. We would find a [51:25] lot of attendance records that were either incomplete, non-existent. Obviously, there were [51:32] times we found them to be fabricated because they were given to us way later. And the same with [51:41] billing records. They were allowed 30 days after the end of the billing period to submit billing [51:46] records. So they were not immediately available to us. And it kind of allowed overpayments or double [51:54] payments to be overlooked. [51:56] So we had the attendance record issue. We had [52:03] the fact that there was no way to verify who was signing the children in and out. [52:09] No way to verify what times those children were signed in and out. [52:13] Could I do a follow-up here? In Wisconsin, we learned this month that Ibrahima Diop, [52:20] a Minneapolis school finance boss, placed on leave for failing to submit required [52:25] financial paperwork with the Minneapolis school district [52:28] and for [52:28] signing [52:28] questionable contracts linked to the Somali fraud scandal, was hired by the Milwaukee public [52:34] school system as a deputy superintendent, a salary of $240,000 a year. Do you think it [52:41] wise? Might that be a warning sign that this person was involved, may have been involved [52:46] with fraud in Minneapolis? Shouldn't they be concerned in Wisconsin that this is going, [52:51] that they're hiring someone like that? [52:53] Well, if somebody that they hire has a past history and [52:58] practice of doing that type of stuff, I would be very leery of it occurring again or that being [53:06] the basis that they're hired. [53:07] So Governor Evers refused to open the books and is blocking federal audits of our [53:14] food stamp and Medicaid programs, and he also vetoed four auditor positions in a recent budget. [53:23] Do you think that is also a warning sign? [53:25] Yes. If it's preventing- [53:29] Or, or- [53:30] or ill-advised would that be a better way to pose a question yeah if it prevents the oversight and [53:37] the ability to audit and look at the records to make sure can have a checks check and balance [53:43] system i think that'd be very unwise because again that allows fraud to occur because um mr shirley [53:52] what is happening in minnesota it could be happening throughout the united states isn't [53:57] that correct correct if there's one thing we've learned or leered as they say in minneapolis [54:05] um isn't it possible that this is happening everywhere yes i believe it is mr chairman i yield [54:13] back gentlemen yields i now recognize the ranking member of the whole committee mr raskin for his [54:17] five minutes of question thank you very much mr chairman uh thank all the witnesses for your [54:22] excellent testimony mr hedler godette um the administration has systematically undermined [54:30] government [54:31] oversight the president has fired more than a dozen inspectors general not for any cause [54:37] but seemingly just in retaliation for doing their jobs and to block unwanted investigations [54:42] president trump has defunded the council of inspectors general on integrity and efficiency [54:48] he's removed independent leadership at the office of special counsel and office of government ethics [54:53] blockading whistleblowers and numerous investigations what is your assessment mr hedler [55:00] godette of this [55:01] trump administration's apparent systematic opposition to internal oversight mechanisms [55:07] in the federal government uh thank you ranking member raskin uh my assessment is that the last [55:16] year or so has been one of the most anti-oversight anti-accountability [55:20] periods that i've witnessed in our federal government and i think the things you laid [55:24] out as well as others are the sort of proof in the pudding there and i think speaking [55:28] of things that should be giving us pause and raising red flags that should all be giving us [55:33] pause and raising serious red flags about how seriously people who claim to take oversight [55:38] accountability fraud uh how seriously do they actually take it there's been a lot of attention [55:44] given to uh donald trump's extraordinary use of the pardon power as in the the pardon of uh violent [55:52] uh insurrectionists and cop beaters but there's also been a forgiveness of a billion and a half [55:59] dollars in restitutionary fines [56:06] that various people had to pay and a lot of them are fraudsters uh the dha in trump's first term [56:13] brought bank fraud and tax evasion charges against reality tv stars todd and julie chrisley they were [56:19] convicted in 2022 they owed more than 22 million dollars in restitution to taxpayers into their [56:26] victims but then trump suddenly inexplicably pardoned them and forgave all of the money [56:32] that they were supposed to be paying back to their victims todd chrisley [56:37] bragged publicly about his get out of jail free card jubilantly exclaiming [56:41] the feds got effed let me give you one other example um trump on april 23rd issued a pardon [56:49] for paul walchuk a former nursing home exec who pleaded guilty to multiple tax crimes what he was [56:55] doing was taking millions of dollars from the nurses and orderlies and doctors who worked for [57:01] him at his facilities took more than 10 million dollars that way instead of giving it to the irs [57:08] um for uh their taxes he used the money to buy a two million dollar yacht and to pay for high-end [57:18] jet travel and to go shopping at burgdorf goodman and cartier well he was sentenced to 18 months in [57:24] prison for stealing his tax his employees tax withholdings and he was ordered to pay [57:30] his employees back 4.4 million dollars for the money he looted from their accounts so he's gonna [57:37] have to pay that back but then he got his mom to go to a glitzy fundraising dinner for donald trump [57:43] at mar-a-lago and she paid a million dollars for her ticket then right after trump was [57:49] inaugurated in his second term wal contre petition for presidential pardon arguing that he was the [57:54] victim of political retaliation because they were trump supporters and what do you know [58:00] president trump issued a complete pardon with forgiveness of all of the financial fines and [58:06] isn't that wrong but instead they'recedes why do you want her to work in college who's gonna pay her [58:07] that Mr. Walchuk was going to have to pay back to his workers, [58:11] the nurses and doctors and orderlies. [58:13] So that was forgiven. [58:14] That was $4 million taken away from the victims of a fraud [58:19] and given back to the perpetrator of the fraud. [58:23] Okay, now, if we had all day, we could go on all day with this [58:26] because that's how their pay-to-play pardon system works. [58:29] What does this do to our efforts to root out fraud and corruption [58:36] systematically in the government and in crimes in different industries? [58:42] I think it provides a perverse incentive structure. [58:47] I opened my statement by saying that we all have an obligation [58:51] and a responsibility to do what we can to prevent fraud [58:53] and hold perpetrators of fraud accountable. [58:56] But that last bit, holding a perpetrator of fraud accountable, [58:58] perhaps via conviction, doesn't mean much [59:01] if all one needs to do is contribute to the right's hooper pack [59:06] or attend the right fundraiser, [59:07] and suddenly that accountability and that conviction [59:09] and that conviction is gone. [59:09] That conviction is wiped away, [59:10] including the financial restitution you mentioned. [59:12] So those kinds of actions are at direct cross-purposes [59:15] with any effort to promote a broader, more systemic approach [59:18] to rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse. [59:20] The gentleman's time has expired. [59:21] Thank you very much. [59:22] I'm going to yield back. [59:23] I recognize the chairman of the full committee, Mr. Jordan. [59:25] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [59:26] Mr. Dexter, let me make sure we got this right. [59:30] You get tips and complaints, whistleblowers or others [59:33] come to you and tell you something's not right [59:36] at these child care centers in your state, [59:40] that are getting all kinds of taxpayer monies. [59:42] Is that right? [59:42] That's how it started? [59:44] That's correct. [59:44] Okay. [59:45] And then you go and do your work. [59:47] And you got 28 years experience investigating things, [59:51] and specifically in the crime and financial fraud area. [59:54] Is that right? [59:55] That's correct. [59:55] And you go out and find out these child care centers, [59:58] there aren't any kids. [1:00:00] No kids are there. [1:00:01] I mean, there's some, but it's like, [1:00:02] you don't see the playground. [1:00:03] You don't see any kids at a place [1:00:06] where they're supposed to be helping children. [1:00:07] And then you also find out most of them [1:00:10] are run by Somali individuals. [1:00:12] Is that accurate? [1:00:13] That is correct. [1:00:14] And then you make some recommendations. [1:00:17] You said, here's what we should do. [1:00:18] I think you put this on page two of your testimony. [1:00:21] You said there's some basic things you should do. [1:00:23] No, you said they didn't have biometric attendance system. [1:00:26] They should do that. [1:00:27] They should have electronic submission requirements. [1:00:29] They need security cameras. [1:00:30] You made some recommendations. [1:00:33] Yes. [1:00:34] And then what happened? [1:00:36] Nothing. [1:00:37] They ignored your recommendations, [1:00:38] but it didn't stop there, did it? [1:00:40] They ignored your recommendations, [1:00:43] they called you a racist, right? [1:00:45] Correct. [1:00:46] Typical left. [1:00:47] I always say the left will tell a lie. [1:00:50] Big media will report it. [1:00:52] You tell the truth, they call you racist. [1:00:55] Exactly what happened here. [1:00:56] So they ignore your recommendations, [1:00:58] they call you a racist, [1:01:00] but it even got worse than that. [1:01:02] You can imagine. [1:01:03] They started investigating you, is that right? [1:01:05] Yes, we were interviewed by an outside firm [1:01:10] for a report given to the Office of Legislative Audit. [1:01:14] What did that report look like? [1:01:18] What did they say? [1:01:19] They call you a racist. [1:01:20] What did the report say? [1:01:22] The report basically questioned our investigative tactics, [1:01:28] looked at how our unit was managed. [1:01:32] Even though you had 28 years experience in this particular area, [1:01:35] tips and whistleblowers came to you, [1:01:37] even though that was the whole catalyst for doing this? [1:01:39] Correct. [1:01:40] Yeah, okay. [1:01:41] And the end result is what? [1:01:42] The end result is Miss Larson, [1:01:45] who is actually helping, [1:01:46] she suffers, [1:01:47] and the people she helps suffers. [1:01:49] Is that right, Miss Larson? [1:01:50] Yes. [1:01:51] Not to mention the fact [1:01:52] that taxpayers are getting ripped off, [1:01:54] but the people who do good work, [1:01:55] who actually help people, [1:01:56] you suffered. [1:01:57] The disabled are paying for the money stolen. [1:01:58] Yeah. [1:01:59] And why do you think all this is the case? [1:02:00] I mean, all this brings me to, [1:02:01] this seems to be a typical pattern, [1:02:02] but in the end, [1:02:03] you got to ask why. [1:02:05] Why was, [1:02:06] when you point out what's going on, [1:02:07] you have good people doing good work [1:02:08] who suffer, [1:02:09] the people who do good work, [1:02:10] you suffer, [1:02:11] the people who do good work, [1:02:12] you suffer, [1:02:14] the people who do good work, [1:02:15] you suffer, [1:02:16] the people who do good work, [1:02:17] you suffer, [1:02:18] you have good people doing good work who suffer, [1:02:20] the taxpayers are getting ripped off. [1:02:22] Someone's got to ask, [1:02:23] well, why did they take the, [1:02:24] not follow your recommendations, [1:02:26] call you a racist, [1:02:27] investigate you, [1:02:28] instead of just fixing the problem? [1:02:29] Why'd they do that? [1:02:30] What could be the answer? [1:02:31] Anyone want to hazard, [1:02:32] Mr. Shirley, [1:02:33] you want to hazard a guess [1:02:34] why that's the case? [1:02:35] Well, they simply used that [1:02:37] as a deflection technique [1:02:39] to make you not want to speak out [1:02:40] against the fraud. [1:02:41] Yeah. [1:02:42] It seems to me it's politics, though. [1:02:43] You think it's politics, Mr. Dexter? [1:02:45] Yes, I do. [1:02:46] Yeah, the people at the top, [1:02:47] like, well, we don't want to do this, [1:02:48] we don't want to be called out [1:02:49] racist. [1:02:50] In fact, we found that out, [1:02:51] a week ago in a hearing [1:02:52] where we were looking at this [1:02:53] Feeding Our Future program, [1:02:55] and we found out [1:02:57] they actually shut that program off [1:02:58] for a while. [1:02:59] They said, time out, [1:03:00] something's not right here. [1:03:01] They found the same kind of things [1:03:02] you found, Mr. Dexter. [1:03:03] And they said, [1:03:04] we're going to stop payment, [1:03:05] and then it restarted. [1:03:06] And the reason it restarted [1:03:07] is because they threatened [1:03:08] a racial discrimination lawsuit [1:03:09] against the authorities [1:03:10] there in Minnesota. [1:03:11] So, okay, [1:03:12] forget about the fact [1:03:13] that we do this, [1:03:14] we restart the money, [1:03:15] we're going to hurt good people [1:03:16] like Ms. Larson [1:03:17] and the people she helps [1:03:18] and rip off the taxpayers, [1:03:19] we're going to do it. [1:03:20] It's all for politics. [1:03:21] And we also found, [1:03:22] interestingly enough, [1:03:24] the Attorney General [1:03:25] in Minnesota [1:03:26] had a meeting [1:03:28] with the key folks [1:03:29] in this particular program, [1:03:30] and then they find out [1:03:31] a couple of weeks later [1:03:32] they start sending in [1:03:33] campaign contributions. [1:03:34] I think it's politics. [1:03:35] I think it's politics [1:03:36] driving it all. [1:03:37] And that's why [1:03:38] it's appropriate [1:03:39] we're investigating here [1:03:40] at the congressional level. [1:03:41] That's why it's appropriate [1:03:42] the Department of Justice [1:03:43] has put in place [1:03:44] a specific individual [1:03:45] to focus on this, [1:03:46] not only in Minnesota [1:03:47] but around the country. [1:03:48] I talk too much. [1:03:49] Anyone else want to throw in? [1:03:52] I'll go. [1:03:53] Okay. [1:03:54] I'll give you, [1:03:55] Mr. Shirley, [1:03:56] Ms. Larson, [1:03:57] a chance to say anything [1:03:58] if you want. [1:03:59] If not, [1:04:01] I'll yield 28 seconds [1:04:02] to our chairman. [1:04:03] I yield 20 seconds [1:04:04] remaining my time [1:04:05] to the chairman. [1:04:07] Thank you. [1:04:08] So, [1:04:09] Mr. Hedler-Gaudet, [1:04:10] would it surprise you [1:04:12] that Joe Biden [1:04:13] issued pardons [1:04:14] to someone [1:04:15] named Krundell [1:04:16] who had the largest [1:04:17] municipal fraud [1:04:18] in the country's history [1:04:19] and had a restitution amount [1:04:20] of $53.7 million [1:04:21] that was never paid [1:04:22] following the commutation? [1:04:23] Would that surprise you, sir? [1:04:24] That would not surprise me. [1:04:26] And actually, [1:04:27] in my written statement [1:04:28] I outlined [1:04:29] how some pardons [1:04:30] under the last administration, [1:04:31] the Biden administration, [1:04:32] they also fall [1:04:33] into the same pattern [1:04:34] of pardoning [1:04:35] convicted fraudsters. [1:04:36] So, [1:04:37] I'm in agreement [1:04:38] with you there. [1:04:39] Yeah. [1:04:40] Thank you. [1:04:41] And, [1:04:42] without objection, [1:04:43] that time's expired. [1:04:44] So, [1:04:45] without objection, [1:04:46] Mr. Klein [1:04:47] will be permitted [1:04:48] to participate [1:04:49] in today's hearing [1:04:50] for the purpose [1:04:51] of questioning the witness [1:04:52] if a member yields [1:04:53] him time [1:04:55] for that purpose. [1:04:56] And now, [1:04:57] we're going to go [1:04:59] to Mr. Moore [1:05:00] to talk about pardons [1:05:01] and the ultimate shyster. [1:05:02] One of them [1:05:03] was Hunter Biden. [1:05:04] He got pardoned [1:05:05] after Joe promised [1:05:06] he wasn't going to do that [1:05:07] on the way out. [1:05:08] So, [1:05:09] anyway, [1:05:10] that's another pardon [1:05:11] for another day. [1:05:12] Ms. Larson, [1:05:13] I'm impressed [1:05:14] with your son. [1:05:15] I honestly thought [1:05:16] he was your attorney [1:05:17] when you guys [1:05:18] were sitting there, [1:05:19] but were there [1:05:20] early warning signs [1:05:21] if acted on [1:05:22] that could have prevented [1:05:23] the fraud schemes [1:05:26] from growing [1:05:27] to the scale [1:05:28] that we see now? [1:05:29] I'd say yes. [1:05:30] Looking back, [1:05:31] the Smalley community [1:05:32] has always been [1:05:33] very supportive [1:05:34] of people [1:05:35] with autism. [1:05:36] And I know that [1:05:37] because I serve [1:05:38] a lot of minorities [1:05:39] in my centers. [1:05:40] So, [1:05:41] when these centers [1:05:42] started popping up, [1:05:43] I thought, [1:05:44] good for them. [1:05:45] You know, [1:05:47] like I took care [1:05:48] of my son. [1:05:49] We have had a waiting list [1:05:50] for five years, [1:05:51] so I thought [1:05:52] it was a positive. [1:05:53] And then, [1:05:54] it just started [1:05:55] to go and go [1:05:56] where now it's, [1:05:57] you know, [1:05:58] 400 plus of these. [1:05:59] And it started, [1:06:00] I'm not, [1:06:01] I didn't, [1:06:02] I don't know [1:06:03] what I have time for. [1:06:04] But, you know, [1:06:05] I think there were [1:06:06] a lot of early warning signs. [1:06:07] I think if anybody [1:06:08] was actually paying attention. [1:06:09] They would have caught it. [1:06:10] Oh, 100%. [1:06:11] Because you, [1:06:12] how long have you been in business? [1:06:13] 20 years? [1:06:14] Over 20 years. [1:06:15] And you went through [1:06:16] a number of audits, [1:06:17] I think every year, right? [1:06:18] Every year. [1:06:19] So how is it [1:06:20] that these groups [1:06:21] are getting away with it [1:06:22] and you're under the thumb [1:06:23] of the government [1:06:24] auditing you every year? [1:06:25] Why do you think that is? [1:06:26] Either there's [1:06:27] a double standard [1:06:28] and they don't, [1:06:29] for whatever reason, [1:06:30] have the same expectations [1:06:31] that we do. [1:06:32] Or they're just looking [1:06:33] Maybe Chairman Jordan [1:06:34] was on to something. [1:06:35] Maybe it's politics. [1:06:36] Yeah. [1:06:37] Mr. Shirley, [1:06:38] now I guess [1:06:39] investigative journalists [1:06:40] turn on [1:06:41] as right-wing [1:06:42] social media influencers. [1:06:43] So can you confirm [1:06:44] how many daycare centers [1:06:45] you personally visited [1:06:46] in Minnesota [1:06:47] during your investigation? [1:06:48] During that first video, [1:06:49] we went to around seven. [1:06:50] How did you select [1:06:51] those facilities? [1:06:52] I know you said earlier [1:06:53] footprints in the snow. [1:06:55] But how is it [1:06:56] that you identified [1:06:57] those facilities [1:06:58] to go to initially? [1:06:59] So the man, [1:07:00] David, [1:07:01] in the video [1:07:02] said, [1:07:03] he had the daycares [1:07:04] with the CCAP funding [1:07:05] and we just simply [1:07:06] drove around Minnesota [1:07:07] and around Minneapolis area. [1:07:09] Took a lot of courage [1:07:10] to do that, [1:07:11] I would imagine. [1:07:12] Probably more so now [1:07:13] than what it was [1:07:14] when you initially did it. [1:07:15] 100 million views, [1:07:16] you said. [1:07:17] Yes, [1:07:18] over 140 million views [1:07:19] on Exelon. [1:07:20] So what was [1:07:21] Mr. David's background? [1:07:22] How did you connect with him [1:07:23] and how did, [1:07:24] did he call you [1:07:25] or did you reach out? [1:07:26] He simply is just [1:07:27] a man in Minnesota [1:07:28] who has a passion [1:07:29] for his city [1:07:30] and he's been seeing [1:07:31] fraud taking place [1:07:32] for years. [1:07:33] And I just, [1:07:34] I just saw [1:07:35] the thousands of messages [1:07:36] I get on Instagram [1:07:37] and other platforms. [1:07:38] I just happened [1:07:39] to read his [1:07:41] and he provided me [1:07:42] the information [1:07:43] so I gave him a phone call. [1:07:44] And then from there [1:07:45] just went to those [1:07:46] different facilities. [1:07:47] What was probably [1:07:48] the most interesting [1:07:49] thing as you were doing this? [1:07:50] I saw the video. [1:07:51] We watched it [1:07:52] and it looked like [1:07:53] it was a number [1:07:54] of facilities [1:07:55] like in the same building. [1:07:56] Yes. [1:07:57] So in one building [1:07:58] there was, [1:07:59] I believe, [1:08:00] three daycares [1:08:01] and there was no children [1:08:02] and they were all [1:08:03] receiving CCAP funding [1:08:04] because one daycare [1:08:05] we went to, [1:08:06] that one day [1:08:07] it was closed [1:08:08] by the government [1:08:10] and then that same day [1:08:11] it was reopened [1:08:12] underneath another name [1:08:13] and they both received [1:08:14] CCAP funding. [1:08:15] I bet, [1:08:16] Ms. Larson, [1:08:17] they probably weren't [1:08:18] getting audited [1:08:20] nearly like you were. [1:08:21] I would guess not. [1:08:22] So how many daycares [1:08:23] are there in Minneapolis? [1:08:24] Do we think [1:08:25] are fraudulent right now? [1:08:26] Mr. Shirley, [1:08:27] any idea? [1:08:28] Are the amount [1:08:29] of money total? [1:08:30] You got any idea on that? [1:08:31] Well, [1:08:32] they've frozen [1:08:33] over $185 million [1:08:34] and not a single business [1:08:35] has been able to prove [1:08:36] that. [1:08:37] $185 million for sure [1:08:38] that we know. [1:08:39] Mr. Dexter, [1:08:40] I got a question for you. [1:08:41] What common patterns [1:08:42] or warning signs [1:08:43] usually indicate [1:08:44] that the provider [1:08:45] or the program [1:08:46] may be committing fraud? [1:08:47] As you were doing [1:08:48] your investigations [1:08:49] and 28 years of experience, [1:08:50] what are some [1:08:51] of the indicators [1:08:52] that you see [1:08:53] that maybe, [1:08:54] that should be [1:08:55] a telltale sign [1:08:56] or a red flag [1:08:57] that there's fraud there? [1:08:58] Well, [1:08:59] one of the immediate signs [1:09:00] that we saw [1:09:01] when we would go out [1:09:02] to first look [1:09:03] at the location [1:09:04] is where that was located. [1:09:05] A lot of times [1:09:06] it was located [1:09:07] in commercial areas, [1:09:10] and I'm not talking [1:09:11] like strip malls [1:09:12] or anything like that. [1:09:13] I'm talking about [1:09:14] like industrial areas [1:09:16] where you wouldn't [1:09:17] typically find [1:09:18] a childcare center. [1:09:20] We would notice [1:09:22] that there was [1:09:24] no play area, [1:09:26] and if there was [1:09:27] any play equipment, [1:09:28] it was bare minimum. [1:09:30] Now, [1:09:31] there was an exception [1:09:32] that if there was [1:09:33] a playground area [1:09:34] within a very short [1:09:35] walking distance, [1:09:36] that would count. [1:09:37] But a lot of times [1:09:38] we didn't see that. [1:09:39] But the most [1:09:40] glaring thing [1:09:41] was that when [1:09:42] we watched [1:09:43] the centers, [1:09:44] you know, [1:09:45] we would sit [1:09:46] and watch it [1:09:47] for a couple of days [1:09:48] before we even [1:09:49] put up surveillance cameras. [1:09:50] We would watch, [1:09:51] and we would see [1:09:52] little to no children [1:09:53] present. [1:09:55] If anything, [1:09:56] there would be [1:09:57] a few kids. [1:09:58] As you begin [1:09:59] to blow the whistle, [1:10:00] the investigator [1:10:01] became invisible. [1:10:02] The gentleman's [1:10:03] time has expired. [1:10:04] I'll yield back, [1:10:05] Mr. Chairman. [1:10:06] Thank you. [1:10:07] Ms. Newdath. [1:10:08] Thank you, [1:10:09] Mr. Chairman. [1:10:10] When he began [1:10:11] his second term, [1:10:12] President Trump [1:10:13] broke from historic norms [1:10:14] and fired 17 [1:10:15] inspectors general, [1:10:16] people who serve [1:10:17] as critical watchdogs [1:10:18] and prevent waste, [1:10:19] fraud, [1:10:20] and abuse. [1:10:21] A federal judge [1:10:22] held that these [1:10:23] firings were illegal, [1:10:24] but also held that [1:10:25] she could not [1:10:26] reinstate these people [1:10:27] due to their [1:10:28] important roles. [1:10:29] As a result, [1:10:30] the president [1:10:31] has been able [1:10:32] to appoint acting [1:10:33] inspectors general [1:10:34] who have themselves [1:10:35] been removed [1:10:36] after informing [1:10:37] the public [1:10:38] that the [1:10:39] investigators [1:10:40] are not cooperating [1:10:41] with investigations. [1:10:42] Mr. [1:10:43] Hitler-Gaudet, [1:10:44] how do these [1:10:45] frequent firings [1:10:46] affect the ability [1:10:47] of the inspector [1:10:48] general offices [1:10:50] to prevent [1:10:51] and investigate [1:10:52] fraud? [1:10:53] I think they [1:10:54] fundamentally undermine [1:10:55] it, [1:10:56] and they also [1:10:57] create a real [1:10:58] chilling effect [1:10:59] for the inspector [1:11:00] general who are [1:11:01] left. [1:11:02] The incentive [1:11:03] to do something [1:11:04] that could upset [1:11:05] the powers that be [1:11:06] suddenly becomes [1:11:07] a bit of a risky [1:11:08] decision. [1:11:09] I think [1:11:10] the [1:11:11] police [1:11:12] are really [1:11:13] dampening [1:11:14] and damaging [1:11:15] the ability [1:11:16] to do real [1:11:17] oversight. [1:11:18] How does the [1:11:19] politicization [1:11:20] of inspector [1:11:21] general appointments [1:11:22] affect the [1:11:24] morale and [1:11:25] effectiveness [1:11:26] of career [1:11:27] investigative [1:11:28] staff within [1:11:29] these offices? [1:11:30] It also has a [1:11:31] severely negative [1:11:32] effect on morale [1:11:33] and efficacy [1:11:34] within the [1:11:35] offices. [1:11:36] I believe [1:11:37] we can and [1:11:38] I think [1:11:40] we can [1:11:41] do a good [1:11:42] job of [1:11:43] getting [1:11:44] the [1:11:45] right [1:11:46] people [1:11:47] to [1:11:48] work [1:11:49] for [1:11:50] the [1:11:51] right [1:11:52] people. [1:11:53] I would [1:11:54] like to [1:11:55] say [1:11:56] that [1:11:57] the [1:11:58] legislature [1:11:59] and our [1:12:00] office [1:12:01] are [1:12:02] committed [1:12:03] to [1:12:04] doing [1:12:05] what [1:12:06] we [1:12:07] should [1:12:08] do. [1:12:09] The [1:12:10] project on [1:12:11] government [1:12:12] oversight [1:12:13] recently [1:12:14] published an [1:12:15] article, [1:12:16] seven ways [1:12:17] congress [1:12:20] should [1:12:22] sharpen [1:12:23] its [1:12:24] oversight [1:12:25] in [1:12:26] 2026. [1:12:27] Is [1:12:28] there [1:12:29] anything [1:12:30] else [1:12:32] you [1:12:33] want [1:12:34] to [1:12:35] highlight [1:12:36] from [1:12:37] those [1:12:38] recommendations? [1:12:39] I [1:12:40] want [1:12:41] to [1:12:42] say [1:12:43] that [1:12:44] there [1:12:45] are [1:12:46] a [1:12:47] number [1:12:48] of [1:12:49] issues [1:12:50] that [1:12:51] Congress [1:12:53] has [1:12:54] to [1:12:55] take [1:12:56] seriously [1:12:57] when it [1:12:58] comes to [1:12:59] the [1:13:00] other [1:13:01] two [1:13:02] branches [1:13:03] and [1:13:04] conducting [1:13:05] oversight. [1:13:06] That [1:13:07] is [1:13:08] predicated [1:13:09] on [1:13:10] Congress [1:13:11] and [1:13:12] the [1:13:13] other [1:13:14] branches [1:13:15] and [1:13:16] the [1:13:17] other [1:13:18] branches [1:13:19] that [1:13:20] are [1:13:21] not [1:13:22] doing [1:13:23] what [1:13:24] they [1:13:25] should [1:13:26] do. [1:13:27] I [1:13:28] think [1:13:29] that [1:13:30] the [1:13:31] other [1:13:32] branches [1:13:33] are [1:13:34] not [1:13:35] doing [1:13:36] what [1:13:37] they [1:13:38] should [1:13:39] do. [1:13:41] I [1:13:42] think [1:13:43] that [1:13:44] the [1:13:45] other [1:13:47] branches [1:13:48] are [1:13:49] not [1:13:50] doing [1:13:51] what [1:13:52] they [1:13:53] should [1:13:54] do. [1:13:55] I [1:13:56] think [1:13:57] that [1:13:58] the [1:13:59] other [1:14:00] branches [1:14:01] are [1:14:02] not [1:14:04] doing [1:14:05] what [1:14:06] they [1:14:07] should [1:14:08] do. [1:14:09] I [1:14:10] think [1:14:11] that [1:14:12] the [1:14:13] other [1:14:14] branches [1:14:15] are [1:14:16] not [1:14:17] doing [1:14:18] what [1:14:19] they should [1:14:20] do. [1:14:21] I [1:14:23] think [1:14:24] that [1:14:25] the [1:14:26] other [1:14:27] branches [1:14:28] are [1:14:29] not [1:14:30] doing [1:14:32] what [1:14:33] they should [1:14:34] do. [1:14:35] I [1:14:36] think [1:14:37] that [1:14:38] the [1:14:39] other [1:14:40] branches [1:14:41] are [1:14:42] not [1:14:43] doing [1:14:44] what [1:14:45] they should [1:14:46] do. [1:14:47] I [1:14:48] think [1:14:49] that [1:14:50] the [1:14:51] other [1:14:52] branches [1:14:53] are [1:14:54] not [1:14:55] doing [1:14:56] what [1:14:57] they [1:14:58] should [1:14:59] do. [1:15:00] I [1:15:01] think [1:15:02] that [1:15:03] the [1:15:04] other [1:15:05] branches [1:15:06] are [1:15:07] not [1:15:08] doing [1:15:09] what [1:15:10] they [1:15:11] should [1:15:12] do. [1:15:13] I [1:15:14] think [1:15:16] that [1:15:17] the [1:15:18] other [1:15:19] branches [1:15:20] are [1:15:21] not [1:15:22] doing [1:15:23] what [1:15:24] they should [1:15:25] do. [1:15:26] I [1:15:27] think [1:15:28] that [1:15:29] the [1:15:30] other [1:15:31] branches [1:15:32] are [1:15:33] not [1:15:34] doing [1:15:35] what [1:15:36] they [1:15:37] should [1:15:38] do. [1:15:39] I [1:15:40] think [1:15:41] that [1:15:42] the other [1:15:43] branches [1:15:44] are [1:15:45] not [1:15:46] doing [1:15:47] what [1:15:48] they should [1:15:49] do. [1:15:50] I [1:15:51] think [1:15:52] that [1:15:53] the other [1:15:54] branches [1:15:55] are [1:15:56] not [1:15:57] doing [1:15:58] what [1:15:59] they should [1:16:00] do. [1:16:01] I [1:16:02] think [1:16:03] that [1:16:04] the [1:16:05] other [1:16:06] branches [1:16:07] are [1:16:08] not [1:16:09] doing [1:16:10] what [1:16:11] they should [1:16:12] do. [1:16:13] I [1:16:14] think [1:16:15] that [1:16:16] the [1:16:17] other [1:16:18] branches [1:16:19] are [1:16:20] not [1:16:21] doing [1:16:22] what [1:16:23] they should [1:16:24] do. [1:16:25] I [1:16:26] think [1:16:27] that [1:16:28] the [1:16:29] other [1:16:30] branches [1:16:31] are [1:16:32] not [1:16:33] doing [1:16:34] what [1:16:36] they should [1:16:37] do. [1:16:38] I [1:16:39] think [1:16:40] that [1:16:42] the other [1:16:44] branches [1:16:45] are [1:16:46] not [1:16:47] doing [1:16:48] what [1:16:49] they should [1:16:50] do. [1:16:51] I [1:16:52] think [1:16:53] that [1:16:54] the other [1:16:55] branches [1:16:56] are [1:16:57] not [1:16:58] doing [1:17:00] what [1:17:01] they should [1:17:02] do. [1:17:03] I [1:17:04] think [1:17:05] that [1:17:06] the other [1:17:07] branches [1:17:08] are [1:17:09] not [1:17:10] doing [1:17:11] what [1:17:12] they should [1:17:13] do, [1:17:14] They should [1:17:15] not [1:17:16] do [1:17:17] what [1:17:18] they should [1:17:19] do, [1:17:20] just [1:17:21] do [1:17:22] what [1:17:23] they should [1:17:24] do. [1:17:26] I [1:17:27] think [1:17:28] both [1:17:29] of [1:17:30] them [1:17:31] have [1:17:32] something [1:17:33] to [1:17:34] do [1:17:35] with [1:17:36] surveillance [1:17:37] data [1:17:37] in [1:17:38] the [1:17:38] brain. [1:17:39] I [1:17:40] think [1:17:41] that [1:17:41] that's [1:17:42] how [1:17:42] we're [1:17:42] many children were being billed at these centers and we would have centers that [1:17:47] were billing for a hundred and twenty plus children and looking at the [1:17:52] different days and times kind of establishing a pattern that just was [1:17:57] outside the realm of a typical daycare center so in other words you used [1:18:03] objective data and evidence as the foundation to proceed further with your [1:18:09] investigations yes in order to hope to start the investigation that's what we [1:18:14] would begin with and in your experience wouldn't you also say that that is the [1:18:19] typical method or a typical method for beginning and analyzing a potential [1:18:26] fraud case of any nature in any community yes because in order to do the [1:18:31] investigation you first have to find out if it warrants an investigation and to [1:18:35] what extent that investigation would would be and now [1:18:40] you're going to have to find out if it warrants an investigation and to what extent that investigation would would be and now [1:18:40] isn't it also correct you mentioned in your testimony systemic weaknesses that [1:18:44] allowed the large-scale fraud even after you had developed substantial evidence [1:18:50] that there was in fact fraud occurring that there were institutional and [1:18:55] systemic barriers that prevented you from successfully moving these cases [1:18:59] through prosecution and indeed in your testimony you note that in 2019 you [1:19:04] chose to retire because the process had become so constrained that [1:19:10] meaningful work was no longer possible tell us about the barriers and ultimately [1:19:15] that profound frustration that led you to retire well when we were originally [1:19:21] hired when this unit was originally created and we were hired we were hired [1:19:25] with the understanding that our job was going to be to investigate fraud and [1:19:30] stop it and as we proceeded through with that it wasn't by our doing that it [1:19:36] turned out that the centers we investigated were predominantly Smalley [1:19:41] but once that was kind of brought out to light the roadblocks that were put in [1:19:46] front of us being called racist being called before these boards to be [1:19:51] investigated and basically it wound up turning us into auditors we wound up [1:19:56] just simply reviewing attendance records and matching them up with billing there [1:20:01] really wasn't a lot of substantial investigation anymore and most of our [1:20:05] cases wound up going before administrative hearings rather than criminal which in the end [1:20:11] allowed this pattern of conduct to continue to occur, did it not? Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:20:16] I yield back. The lady yields. Chair recognizes now the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Knott. [1:20:20] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To my colleague from Florida, thank you for that line of question. [1:20:24] I'm going to pick up where she left off. In regards to the testimony that we've heard today, [1:20:28] the other side of the aisle makes us believe or wants us to believe that the fraud has been [1:20:33] effectively stopped, that they aggressively pursued it, they prosecuted it, and that it [1:20:37] is under control. Is that your interpretation of where we are, Mr. Dexter? [1:20:42] I believe the fraud is still going on. I don't think anything has changed from what [1:20:46] I've seen with Mr. Shirley's videos. I'm seeing in his videos the exact same things that we were [1:20:53] seeing back from 2014 to 2019 when I worked there. And it's astounding to me when I was looking at [1:20:59] some of the footage, the evidence, there was almost a sense of we are owed this money that [1:21:06] we're stealing. How dare you investigate us? Did you ever encounter that type of attitude when you [1:21:11] were performing? [1:21:11] There was an underlying attitude like that, that we were taking away their money and that [1:21:19] it wasn't fair to them. [1:21:22] In your investigation, sir, were they as, was the fraud as obvious as it seems to me that it [1:21:28] appeared in the videos and the other evidence that I've reviewed? [1:21:31] Yes. As a matter of fact, when we would go out to do our investigations, [1:21:35] one of the things that we would have to do or I would have to do is we would scout out a location [1:21:41] for our surveillance. We would scout out a location for our surveillance. We would scout [1:21:42] out a location for our surveillance cameras that allowed us a direct line of sight to the [1:21:46] centers. All their access's. A lot of that because of the location where we were in these [1:21:51] industrial commercial areas meant we had to go to businesses and ask them permission. And the [1:21:57] number one comment they made was, oh, you mean that daycare center over there where there's [1:22:01] no children? So everyone else around it saw it. [1:22:04] In regards to your investigation, sir. I'm assuming that you did not just investigate [1:22:08] daycare fraud. What other types of fraud did you investigate? [1:22:11] um no our our function was strictly child care fraud but some of that overlapped into [1:22:18] um even though we didn't investigate it a lot of it was also tied into the medical transportation [1:22:25] and did you ever investigate single entities that that were appearing as though they were committing [1:22:30] fraud in multiple diff or multiple avenues i'm sorry so it was like was there one facility that [1:22:36] was a daycare it was also associated with the medical transport were there people who were [1:22:40] double dipping in the fraud in your investigations not that we saw as far as multi uh different [1:22:48] organizations but there were where one daycare center owner owned multiple daycare centers so [1:22:55] what we saw was more within the daycare center yeah ms larson thank you for being here i echo [1:23:01] my colleague sentiment from alabama your son is very impressive what's his name his name is caden [1:23:06] caden thank you for being here today you look sharp you're doing great uh let me just talk to [1:23:11] you about uh the [1:23:12] audit how much of an impact any of these various [1:23:15] audits that you were subjected to how rigorous were they very they'd be there for hours come [1:23:21] in and say you know i want to see these files for these kids at this date and this time was there [1:23:26] any way that you could have tricked them concealed it if you had not had any children there would it [1:23:31] would have been possible absolutely not in regards to the services that you've rendered first thank [1:23:36] you thank you and then in terms of the budgets that you require how does it make you feel when [1:23:41] you hear uh first-hand accounts that hundreds of millions of dollars have been taken out from them [1:23:43] out of the country in suitcases to hostile nations i can't even respond the way i feel about that but [1:23:51] i i will say it's still happening to the questioning you i mean there's only two autism [1:23:56] centers that have actually been shut down of all of these that are going on so what they're doing [1:24:03] is this pre-payment review and putting us through this ai system at optum to look for suspicious [1:24:08] claims which is why we're being our funds are being held and it's not going to work yeah i'm [1:24:13] going to tell you it's not going to work i mean they just need to do what nick did go and see that [1:24:18] there's no kids there go and check it out and what mr dexter did data-driven review yeah without any [1:24:24] preconceptions without any prejudices and then holding the fraudsters to account and when he [1:24:28] did that he was called a racist yeah it's astounding it is astounding and you said that [1:24:33] you help many uh many patients diverse patients how have those patients uh been harmed by this [1:24:40] administration in minnesota the walls administration they are all [1:24:43] being harmed if i shut down next week is that what you're up against well if i haven't gotten [1:24:49] paid now the last state of service was december 5th i'm over 400 000 in debt my payroll is 250 000 [1:24:55] every two weeks and we get paid every two weeks so on sunday night i'll know if i get any money [1:25:00] i haven't been paid a dime all my claims have been held so i'm i'm you know preparing to [1:25:07] apparently in minnesota too i can't just pause services if i pause my services then the dhs can [1:25:14] tell me how much i've lost your license to serve the kids through this program so i don't know what [1:25:19] they think we're supposed to do unbelievable yeah well again thank you for being here uh i appreciate [1:25:23] all the testimony sorry i didn't get to everybody else there's a lot of questions mr chairman i yield [1:25:27] back thank you and yields i recognize the gentleman from california mr kiley uh thank you mr chair uh [1:25:33] mr shirley thank you for your testimony today and uh and the work that you've done uh you know [1:25:38] americans uh hear these numbers of the fraud that we have and you know whether it's 10 000 or 10 [1:25:43] million or 10 billion uh [1:25:45] numbers you almost become desensitized to it and so the way that your uh video was able to show [1:25:51] people uh the fraud sort of in real life actually happening i think opened a lot of eyes and has [1:25:57] helped to catalyze um a level of scrutiny uh that we really should have had uh before so you you [1:26:03] mentioned in your testimony that you think that what you discovered in minnesota uh that uh this [1:26:09] is not uh isolated to that state but likely exists in other parts of the country as well correct [1:26:15] what makes you think that well now you're seeing since i've posted that video lots of other people [1:26:19] have started to go to other locations for instance in ohio or in maine or in california they're also [1:26:25] seeing the similar fraud take place in other daycares for instance in a lot of other locations [1:26:31] yeah i have a particular interest in california uh being from that state and uh i uh we know that [1:26:36] there's been a lot of fraud there was 32.6 billion dollars that's been confirmed in unemployment [1:26:41] insurance fraud uh there's 1.2 million fraud in california [1:26:45] in minnesota and there are some fraudulent community college applications have you gotten [1:26:49] any sense or have you seen any signs there that sort of are similar to what aroused your suspicions [1:26:54] in minnesota yeah and fraud in california might be worse than the fraud in minnesota [1:26:58] what makes you say that well 24 billion dollars went missing for homelessness they've been trying [1:27:04] to build this train for years yet there's hardly anything to prove for that fires yeah those are [1:27:10] good points so uh you look at you let's let's run through a couple of those uh because i mentioned [1:27:15] the areas where we have confirmed fraud so you look at maybe like the uh in minnesota uh we have a [1:27:15] have confirmed fraud. But then you also have these areas where you have so much spending and then we [1:27:20] look at what results from that spending and there's nothing. So 24 billion dollars in homelessness and [1:27:26] yet the homeless population went up and a state audit found that they couldn't even figure out [1:27:31] where the money went or what the outcomes linked to that spending were. Is that something that is [1:27:35] kind of a red flag for you? Yeah it's a major red flag and you don't even have to be smart to [1:27:39] be able to know that that's a red flag. Well unfortunately our state legislators haven't [1:27:43] managed to figure that out or at least the governor hasn't. So what are you saying about him? [1:27:47] They're not smart. No but yeah I mean it's so obvious and that's what we saw in Minnesota is [1:27:52] how complicit the government has been in enabling this fraud to happen. Quality Learing Center had [1:27:56] over 90 violations yet they continue to give that daycare 1.9 million dollars. Yeah that's a great [1:28:01] point that there's the political accountability just hasn't been there and that's what enables it [1:28:05] to continue. So then you mentioned the high-speed rail as well. So there has been about [1:28:11] 18 billion dollars spent so far. [1:28:14] No track has been laid and not a single passenger has has ridden the train. So when you spend 18 [1:28:19] billion dollars on a train and there's no train does that raise suspicions for you? Yes. So you [1:28:23] think that might be something worth looking at? For sure. We also had a 650 million dollar 911 [1:28:29] service that they scrapped after six years so absolutely no value from it. Maybe that's another [1:28:33] example where there might at least be questions. I think you got a lot in California. All right well [1:28:38] we'll look forward to seeing what you find. We're certainly trying to use whatever tools we have [1:28:42] here to bring more accountability. [1:28:44] We are not going to be in California as well. Mr. Dexter I wanted to also ask you a couple questions [1:28:48] about your work because you have extensive experience on the law enforcement side for a side [1:28:53] trying to detect fraud. That's actually how in California we discovered the EDD fraud, the [1:28:58] unemployment fraud, is it wasn't the state suddenly figuring it out. It was district attorneys who [1:29:05] came together and investigated and in fact pointed to the fact that the state had let this happen and [1:29:09] failed to heed their warnings and hadn't taken basic fraud detection steps. So [1:29:14] is this something that you encounter? Like what kind of internal controls make it so fraud is more [1:29:21] difficult and what type of you know lack of internal controls make it so fraud is easier? [1:29:25] I would say the the biggest thing was the fact that when we tried to investigate this once we [1:29:36] started bringing cases forward and it showed that the number of centers that we investigated were [1:29:40] small, the biggest roadblock was the fact that they didn't want to follow the law. They didn't want to [1:29:46] go through on these cases. They shut down investigations. They made us you know in light of the report [1:29:54] from this outside management firm we spent nearly a year pulled away from our investigations [1:30:03] because one of the things they determined was that when our unit started we didn't have a proper case [1:30:07] management system for recording and keeping track of the tips. So as investigators we instead [1:30:16] had to spend nearly a year entering past complaints made to DHS into a newly created database. [1:30:25] We couldn't we couldn't do our investigations because of that. So they they kept us from doing [1:30:31] our work basically. Yeah so the states that make fraud detection a priority have less fraud than [1:30:36] those that that actively uh contravene efforts like yours. I thank you Mr. Chair. I yield back. [1:30:41] Thank you. Gentleman's time has expired. Recognize the uh ranking member Mrs. McBath for some UCs? [1:30:47] Thank you Mr. Chair. I'd like to uh ask unanimous consent to enter into the record [1:30:52] an article republicans claims of fraud are pretext for unpopular and drastic Medicaid cuts. [1:30:58] Without objection. Thank you. And so I have oh I have some UC yeah please go ahead. Actually forgive [1:31:04] me I have a handful of them here Mr. Chairman. Um one is a letter dated October 21, 2025 from [1:31:10] Representative Benny Thompson to Robert F. Kennedy Jr. regarding the decision to rescind the 101 [1:31:15] million dollar penalty imposed on Mississippi. [1:31:20] Press release dated September 17, 2025 titled Governor Walz Issues Executive Order Directing [1:31:25] State Agencies to Take Additional Steps to Combat Fraud. Executive Order 2501 [1:31:33] titled Preventing Fraud and Establishing the Financial Crimes and Fraud Section of the [1:31:36] Department of Public Safety signed by Governor Tim Walz January 3, 2025. [1:31:42] Article dated December 2, 2025 titled Trump Calls Somali Immigrants Garbage as U.S. Reportedly [1:31:50] Limit [1:32:04] gerd adalah narasimha 5ified. Article dated January 2, 2030 titled simulations against U.S. [1:32:12] Americans against Asian Americans and racist and toxic news regarding Asian American means of [1:32:16] the dirty lies in wider Israeli territory and public. Article dated 12, 2020 2026 titled Five [1:32:19] States. Sue administration for withholding millions in social safty net funds. Article dated January 10, [1:32:20] Article dated January 11th, 2026, titled Fact Check, What's Really Happening with Child Care Fraud in Minnesota. [1:32:25] And finally, article dated January 13th, 2026, titled The Trump Administration Says It's Cracking Down on Fraud, but It Gave a Red State a Pass. [1:32:34] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:32:35] Without objection, Chair recognizes Ms. McBath again for the OC. [1:32:38] Thank you, Mr. Chair. [1:32:40] I ask the unanimous consent to enter into the record an article titled Trump's Child Care Fund Freezing in Five States Could Cost Families $400 Million by Julia Cashion of the Century Foundation. [1:32:54] Without objection, I recognize myself for a series of UCs. [1:32:58] From Fox News, Biden clemency for convicted fraudsters met with outrage. [1:33:02] Slap in face from CNN. [1:33:05] Victim shocked after Biden grants clemency to Kids for Cash judge and $54 million embezzler. [1:33:10] And. [1:33:11] From Axios, Biden sets presidential record on pardons and clemency. [1:33:16] Also, Minnesota daycare expose journalist strikes again in part two names the hub of the fraud wheel. [1:33:25] 78th defendant charged in feeding our future fraud scheme from U.S. Attorney's Office District of Minnesota. [1:33:33] Suitcases filled with millions in cash flew out of MSP Airport. [1:33:37] XTSA agent connects dots years later from survival world. [1:33:41] From the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. [1:33:44] HHS freezes child care and family assistance grants in five states for fraud concerns. [1:33:49] From the U.S. Attorney's Office District of Minnesota. [1:33:51] Six additional defendants charged. [1:33:53] One defendant pleads guilty in ongoing fraud schemes. [1:33:58] This is from the local Fox News in Minneapolis. [1:34:03] Through the years, a decade of investigating fraud, Minnesota. [1:34:09] U.S. Department of Homeland Security release. [1:34:11] ICE continues arresting worst of the worst in sanctuary Minneapolis, including pedophiles, gang members and drug traffickers. [1:34:18] From MSN. [1:34:19] TSA flags suspicious cash outflow at Minneapolis, St. Paul Airport. [1:34:24] From MSN. [1:34:25] Foreign ATM. [1:34:26] Somali cash exodus from Minneapolis exponentially larger than other major U.S. airports. [1:34:32] From Breitbart. [1:34:33] SBA cutting off grants to Minnesota over reports of Somali fraud. [1:34:37] Vance praises YouTuber Nick Shirley reporting on Minnesota fraud. [1:34:41] Waltz and Omar using ICE operations to distract from fraud scandal. [1:34:47] And from just the news. [1:34:49] In Somali fraud scandal, Republicans probe evidence of a blue state election. [1:34:52] From the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. [1:34:53] From the New York Post. [1:34:55] Ringleader of $250 million Minnesota welfare fraud scandal ordered by judge to forfeit Porsche and luxury goods. [1:35:01] From Lifezet.com. [1:35:05] TSA whistleblower. [1:35:06] Somalis regularly flew out with suitcases stuffed with millions in cash. [1:35:10] From Fox News. [1:35:11] Minnesota welfare fraud probe targets Somali Hawala money transfers. [1:35:16] From the Star News Network. [1:35:21] Feds probe hundreds of millions in suspected Somali cash and luggage leaving Minneapolis airport. [1:35:26] From USCIS. [1:35:27] USCIS announces results of Operation Twin Shield, a large-scale immigration fraud investigation. [1:35:33] From PBS. [1:35:35] Nome says Homeland Security is investigating fraud in Minneapolis. [1:35:39] From Cornell Law. [1:35:42] This is the 18 U.S.C. Section 666, theft or bribery concerning programs receiving federal funds. [1:35:49] Also, same source. [1:35:51] 18 U.S.C. Section 641, public money, property, or records. [1:35:55] Also, from the same source. [1:35:57] 18 U.S.Code 1001, statements or entries generally and without objection. [1:36:03] I now recognize myself for my five minutes of questioning. [1:36:07] So, I have read all of your statements. [1:36:14] And I do thank you, Mr. Headler-Gaudet, for your recommendations. [1:36:18] Mr. Dexter also had some recommendations. [1:36:21] I think those are prescient. [1:36:22] I think those are important. [1:36:24] But I also have to bring some additional information out just because it's in my nature. [1:36:30] I got to do it. [1:36:31] So, Mr. Headler-Gaudet, you've been talking about the IGs because you were asked about the IGs. [1:36:36] Do you know how many cases, for instance, criminal cases, are being investigated, say, by the Department of Homeland Security IG right now? [1:36:46] I don't know the number off the top of my head, no. [1:36:48] Would it surprise you if there were 650 ongoing cases with 200 of those being COVID-related? [1:36:53] That would not surprise me, no. [1:36:56] And do you know how many audits they have going right now? [1:36:58] Nope. [1:36:59] They have 60 audits going right now with another 20 investigations going. [1:37:03] That sounds to me like the IG there, at least in DHS, is not being chilled because of the appointment of temporary IGs. [1:37:13] Am I wrong on that, or am I misconstruing that? [1:37:17] One thing about the DHS IG, Mr. Joseph Khafari, is he was actually appointed under the first Trump administration, and he has remained ever since. [1:37:25] We actually, at the Project on Government Oversight, have long recommended that Mr. Khafari be fired because he has had a long and demonstrated track record of slow-walking investigations at DHS, [1:37:34] particularly when it comes to abuse of force and other issues with DHS agents. [1:37:40] And yet the Oversight Committee for the IGs didn't adhere to that recommendation. [1:37:46] So anyway, I felt that point needed to be made. [1:37:50] Additionally, Mr. Dexter, you looked at some of the same kind of physical evidence that Mr. Shirley looked at with regard to physical presence at the various daycare facilities. [1:38:05] Right. [1:38:06] That you were examining between 2014 and 2019. Is that true? [1:38:10] Yes. [1:38:11] And you saw basically the same kind of physical evidence that Mr. Shirley exposed. [1:38:18] That's correct. [1:38:19] You also looked at funding data, and you also had whistleblowers. [1:38:22] Yes. [1:38:24] And I just, I find it interesting that somehow local news, which reported on the fraud, other local news reporters reported on the fraud, [1:38:38] credibly agree with the findings of Mr. Shirley. [1:38:43] Is that what you have seen as well, Mr. Dexter? [1:38:46] Yes. [1:38:47] Fox 9 News in Minneapolis, they followed a lot of our cases and did stories on them. [1:38:57] And so, I mean, the very notion of trying to discredit Mr. Shirley because he had a lot of views, [1:39:06] or that some CBS reporter disagreed and said they couldn't find the evidence, [1:39:12] actually, in my mind, discredits the CBS reporter. [1:39:16] That's because, I mean, I appreciate the ranking member having cited the Arizona fraud, [1:39:24] which I also constantly cite is a massive fraud in Arizona. [1:39:29] Not just the $2.5 billion, but there's an essential, another additional allegation of about $7 billion per year fraud in Arizona. [1:39:38] I think there needs to be a change there. [1:39:41] I think we need to get a handle on this. [1:39:43] Not just in Minnesota, but nationwide. [1:39:47] Because what we've seen in Ms. Larson's case, those who are conducting themselves according to the law, [1:39:54] delivering services, are the ones that also get punished. [1:40:01] But if you're a fraudster, somehow you're able to keep on going. [1:40:05] And the fraud hasn't stopped. [1:40:07] Mr. Shirley, have you seen any evidence, you said twice today, that $185 million of recipients [1:40:14] not one of them has been able to demonstrate that they are a legitimate business? [1:40:18] No. In fact, they are actually actively suing the HHS to prevent handing over any information. [1:40:26] Right. So they don't even want to give the information that would be required of an audit, [1:40:30] that would be required from a separate independent investigation. [1:40:35] They want a court to intervene and enjoin and prevent them from having to respond to this kind of investigation. [1:40:43] Is that correct, Mr. Larson? [1:40:44] That is correct. [1:40:45] So, I mean, this is the thing, and I think, I listen to the panelists, I think everybody on the panel, [1:40:52] I think everybody up here, we all want to stop the fraud. [1:40:56] But the bottom line is, it's so infused with politicization that it is preventing us from just sitting down there [1:41:06] and saying, okay, we've got a symptom in Minnesota and we're going to fix it. [1:41:10] I think the symptoms being exposed is critical because then it actually motivates people. [1:41:15] It actually motivates people to try to get to the root cause. [1:41:18] I'm out of time, and we have no other members here, so I just want to thank each one of you, [1:41:27] Mr. Dexter, Mr. Hedler-Gaudet, Mr. Shirley, and Ms. Larson for being here and giving us your testimony. [1:41:33] I really appreciate it, and I would encourage my colleagues to be better stewards and have better oversight, [1:41:42] because otherwise Mr. Shirley's generation is going to be paying. [1:41:45] They're going to be paying through the Wazoo, which right now means $40 trillion in national debt. [1:41:52] So thank you all. Appreciate it. We are adjourned.