Gov. Tim Walz expected to testify in House Oversight Committee

[14:00] Ready? Ready? The hearing of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform will come to order. [14:07] I want to welcome everyone here today. Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at any time. [14:13] I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement. [14:18] Good morning. Today's hearing is about a failure of leadership, plain and simple. [14:24] For years, Governor Tim Walton, Attorney General Keith Ellison presided over one of the most extensive breakdowns of oversight this committee has ever examined. [14:32] Billions of taxpayer dollars were stolen from social service programs while warnings piled up, whistleblowers spoke out, and state officials chose delay and denial over action. [14:45] Federal prosecutors estimate that as much as $9 billion may have been stolen from just 14 Medicaid programs administered by the state of Minnesota. [14:55] Those programs have cost taxpayers more than $18 billion since 2018, and investigators believe that half or more of that spending may have been lost to fraud. [15:07] That did not happen overnight. [15:10] As our investigation has shown, it happened because state leadership failed repeatedly to intervene. [15:17] Governor Walton has claimed his administration addressed fraud, and I quote, very early, unquote. [15:23] But that claim does not hold up to the facts. His administration kept payments flowing. [15:30] In January, the first hearing of this series, we heard from Minnesota state representatives who made clear this fraud was not hidden. [15:37] It was known, documented, and repeatedly brought to the attention of state leadership. [15:43] In case after case, state agencies identified red flags and received warnings from auditors and employees, [15:49] but continued to send money out the door, not because they lacked authority to intervene, [15:57] but because they feared lawsuits, bad press, and political backlash. [16:03] While Governor Walts hesitated, taxpayers lost billions. [16:08] Attorney General Ellison has likewise claimed his office was aggressively holding fraudsters accountable, [16:12] but when his statements were tested against the record, they fell apart. [16:17] In the Feeding Our Future case, Governor Walts and Attorney General Ellison publicly suggested that courts forced the state to continue payments. [16:26] The judges in that case took the extraordinary step of publicly correcting them. [16:30] The truth is, the state made a choice once again to keep sending the money out the door. [16:35] The Feeding Our Future scandal alone involved nearly $300 million stolen from programs meant to feed children during the pandemic. [16:45] We're talking about fake invoices, meals that never existed, luxury cars, and overseas investments, all paid by the American taxpayer. [16:57] Today, dozens have been convicted, the fraud was real, the warning signs were obvious, and state leadership failed to act. [17:05] The same pattern repeats across Minnesota's social services system. [17:08] In the Child Care Assistance Program, providers racked up dozens, and in some cases more than 100 violations, and still collected millions. [17:19] Facilities shut down and reopened the same day under new names at the same address. [17:23] This went on for years. [17:26] Housing Stabilization Services, a program expected to cost $2.6 million annually, exploded to over $100 million a year. [17:37] Federal prosecutors have described it as, and I quote, easy money. [17:44] Providers built services never delivered while the Walt's administration failed to intervene until federal agents showed up. [17:50] And when state employees tried to stop this, they were silenced and retaliated against for even daring to notice the fraud. [17:58] We have spoken with over 30 whistleblowers, many of them current employees and Democrats, [18:03] who say they were ignored, retaliated against, and even surveilled for raising concerns. [18:08] Instead of protecting the whistleblowers, the Walt's administration protected the system that enabled the fraud. [18:16] We are taking oversight of fraud seriously, and today I hope the Democrats will do the same. [18:21] But their track record is not promising. [18:23] We followed up with the whistleblowers when state leaders ignored them. [18:27] Republican staff spent 36 hours and 46 minutes in nine transcribed interviews with current and former Minnesota state officials. [18:33] Democrats, however, only asked three hours and 14 minutes' worth of questions. [18:39] That's inexcusable and, frankly, embarrassing. [18:43] Taxpayers deserve better. [18:45] We are working with the Trump administration, which has taken a whole-of-government approach to stop fraud before money is stolen. [18:51] What we've uncovered in Minnesota is not a paperwork error or a few bad actors slipping through the cracks. [18:57] It is sustained failure of leadership. [19:03] Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison were warned repeatedly. [19:06] Auditors raised red flags. [19:08] Employees sounded alarms. [19:10] Invoices didn't make sense. [19:12] And still, the money kept flowing. [19:16] While state officials hesitated, billions of taxpayer dollars were stolen from programs meant to serve children, the disabled, and families in crisis. [19:25] While whistleblowers were silenced, fraudsters got rich. [19:29] Accountability shouldn't begin only after federal prosecutors step in and clean up the damage. [19:35] Accountability should compel leaders to act, and here they did not. [19:41] Today, this committee expects answers, and we expect an explanation for why it took federal law enforcement, not state leadership, to finally turn off the spigot. [19:49] Before we proceed, I'd like to ask unanimous consent to enter the committee's interim staff report titled, [19:54] The Cost of Doing Nothing, How Tim Walz and Keith Ellison Fueled Minnesota's Fraud Explosion. [20:00] And with that, I now yield to ranking member Garcia for his opening statement. [20:08] Thank you, Chairman Kilmer. [20:09] I want to thank, of course, the governor for being here today, the attorney general as well, and to Reverend Mariah Tolgaard. [20:16] Thank you so much for being here. [20:18] I especially, though, want to thank the Minnesotans that I know have traveled here to be with us today to witness this hearing, [20:24] but also in solidarity of the horrors and terrors that are happening, not just in Minnesota, but that have happened across the country. [20:33] Now, we look forward to hearing directly on what life in Minnesota has been like, thanks to the Trump administration's actions. [20:41] And the truth is that Donald Trump and Republicans have cut billions of dollars, billions of dollars from health care and food assistance. [20:50] That is a reality. Instead, with that money, they have used it to hire officers who are now terrorizing cities and killing Americans. [21:01] That's where our taxpayer dollars have gone. [21:04] We've taken from food assistance, we've taken from health care, and we superfunded terror on American streets. [21:12] Now, Donald Trump has unleashed chaos against innocent Americans and across Minnesota, and we're going to talk about that today. [21:17] Terror that has actually impacted real families and kids like Liam Ramos, who have been used, as we know, as bait. [21:26] And we all know Liam's story really well. [21:29] The reality is American citizens, innocent kids, people have been brutalized and ripped away from their families. [21:35] They've been thrown into detention centers with horrible conditions that people are literally dying in these centers. [21:42] Peaceful Americans have been killed by federal officers and agents and labeled them as domestic terrorists or assassins. [21:49] By their own government. [21:53] Where is the hearing and the outrage for those actions? [21:57] Now, Alex Preddy, as we all know, a VA nurse, was peacefully exercising his First and Second Amendment rights when he was pepper sprayed, tackled, disarmed, and then shot repeatedly in the back. [22:09] Renee Good, a mom who told an officer, and I quote, [22:12] I'm not mad at you, end quote, was shot dead just moments after. [22:20] And this pattern of violence and lawlessness we've seen, of course, all over the country. [22:24] Now, our committee and Democrats have documented over 590 cases of suspected misconduct by President Trump and Kristi Noem's immigration and enforcement agents across the country, not just in Minnesota. [22:37] There's been 240 incidents of violence or concerning use of force, and 181 have involved United States citizens. [22:48] Now, we've heard testimony that ISIS training has actually completely changed and now actually teaches our agents to violate the rights of American citizens. [22:57] That's what we're teaching now to federal agents. [23:00] And this is just the tip of the iceberg. [23:03] DHS and ICE are out of control and must be held accountable by the Congress. [23:11] Now, Oversight Democrats have been partnering to hold hearings to investigate these abuses, to hold DHS Secretary accountable, Stephen Miller, Greg Bovino. [23:20] And make no mistake, this is Donald Trump's personal police and military force he is unleashing on American streets. [23:28] Now, the hearing that we have today is going to build on those investigations. [23:31] Operation Metro Surge, which we're going to hear a lot about today, this is really about not just what's happening in Minnesota through that operation, but the ways that President Trump has waged his own personal war on Minnesota. [23:45] Instead of improving systems, of course, we're talking about fraud, according to our Republican colleagues. [23:51] But instead of improving systems to prevent future fraud, Trump's also cut off $259 million in Medicaid funding to the state. [23:59] He's threatened federal food aid for 600,000 Minnesotans, including 200,000 kids. [24:07] President Trump has tried to use fraud as his excuse for all of this. [24:11] But what's really happening is violence, terror, death, destruction, and ripping away services from those that need it. [24:20] You don't fight fraud by issuing presidential pardons to fraudsters. [24:24] You don't fight fraud from ripping away food assistance to kids. [24:28] Now, since his re-election, Trump has also given out jail of free cards to dozens of actual real fraudsters who could get out of repaying their victims more than $1 billion. [24:39] Where is the fraud hearing on those abuses? [24:42] And we know that you just don't fight fraud by singling out states led by Democrats and ignoring states led by Republicans. [24:49] Every single person here, and I know the governor and the attorney general believe this as well, we all want to fight fraud, waste, and abuse in government. [24:59] Oklahoma, by the way, and Alabama lead the nation in snap fraud. [25:03] In Texas and Florida, a Russian citizen has been arrested for submitting billions of dollars in fraudulent claims and funneling millions overseas. [25:11] Where are those hearings? [25:13] Where is the governor of Oklahoma or Alabama or Texas or Florida? [25:18] I also want to note this. [25:21] Because of the Trump administration's illegal and unconstitutional actions, we know there is now 31 of 64, 31 of 64 lawyers at the Minnesota U.S. Attorney's Office that have left. [25:35] That is stunning. [25:36] The lead attorney responsible for pursuing these fraud cases has left because the Trump administration ordered them, if we know, to investigate Renee Goods' widow, not her killer. [25:47] They were ordered to investigate Renee Goods' widow, not her killer. [25:53] If the president cared at all about fraud, we would not have all of these officers with all this illegal behavior on Minnesota streets. [26:03] And we should remember that the Trump administration tried to use Operation Metro Surge as leverage to seize Minnesota's voter rolls. [26:11] The Trump administration was never serious about addressing fraud in Minnesota. [26:13] Instead, they've been interested in election conspiracy theories and terrorizing kids. [26:23] And they've accused the governor and attorney general of covering up fraud only to investigate them and turn up actually no evidence. [26:31] What they're trying to do is convince Americans that there's a good reason for violence, for killings and for violations of the law. [26:38] That's not acceptable. [26:39] And we're not going to take that here today. [26:41] I want to thank our witnesses again for being here. [26:44] And I yield back. [26:44] The ranking member yields back. [26:47] I'd like to welcome our witnesses. [26:49] First, we have Tim Waltz, governor of the state of Minnesota. [26:53] Governor Waltz first took office in January of 2019. [26:57] Next, we have Keith Ellison, attorney general of the state of Minnesota. [27:00] Attorney General Ellison also first took office in January of 2019. [27:04] Finally, we have Reverend Mariah Furness-Tolgard, senior pastor, Hamlin Church, United Methodist. [27:12] Thank you all so much for joining us today. [27:15] And we look forward to your testimony. [27:17] Pursuant to Committee Rule 9G, the witnesses will please stand and raise the right hand. [27:25] Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? [27:30] So help you God. [27:32] Let the record show that the witnesses answered the affirmative. [27:35] And please take a seat. [27:36] We appreciate you being here today and look forward to your testimony. [27:39] Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written statement. [27:42] They will appear in full in the hearing record. [27:44] Please limit your oral statements to five minutes. [27:47] As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it's on and the members can hear you. [27:52] When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green. [27:55] After four minutes, the light will turn yellow. [27:57] When the red light comes on, your five minutes have expired, and we would ask that you please wrap up. [28:02] I now recognize Governor Waltz for his opening statement. [28:05] Governor. [28:05] Thank you, Chairman Comer, Ranking Member Garcia, members of the committee. [28:08] I'm proud to be here today as the governor of the great state of Minnesota. [28:12] Under my leadership, Minnesota has dedicated its resources to ensuring that all Minnesotans can live dignified and full lives with access to top-notch public schools, quality health care, good jobs. [28:23] Thanks to these initiatives, Minnesota has been ranked as one of the best states to raise a family in, one of the best states to find a job in, and one of the best states to live in. [28:31] Although Minnesota's programs have overwhelmingly achieved their intended purposes, they're not immune from fraud. [28:37] I'll be the first to acknowledge that. [28:38] But let me be clear. [28:40] In Minnesota, if you defraud public programs, if you steal taxpayer money, we'll find you, we'll prosecute you, we'll convict you, and we'll throw you in jail. [28:48] In this anti-fraud mission, we keep good company. [28:51] Across the country, our nation's governors work hard every single day to combat fraud in their programs. [28:56] But even as we confront issues similar to our sister states, the people of Minnesota have been singled out and targeted for political retribution at an unparalleled scale, including blocking Medicaid reimbursements to our state just last week. [29:10] Under the guise of combating fraud, the federal government has flooded Minnesota with masked, untrained, and unaccountable agents who are wreaking havoc in our communities. [29:18] On the streets of Minnesota, federal agents have entered U.S. citizens' homes who have committed no crimes. [29:23] They have violated the constitutional rights of our citizens. [29:27] They have ignored court orders. [29:29] They have shot first and asked questions later. [29:32] Time and again, they have gaslit us by demanding that we ignore what we see before our very eyes. [29:37] But the American people are not so easily fooled. [29:40] The image of this brutal campaign are seared into our collective memory. [29:44] The fragile innocence of the five-year-old boy in a bunny hat being led away from his family. [29:48] The maddening cruelty of a barely clothed man, a U.S. citizen, being dragged from his house in the dead of winter. [29:55] The sheer devastation we feel of seeing the lifeless bodies of Renee Goode and Alex Preddy. [30:00] Long after the federal government's agents of chaos pack up and leave, and long after the fraudsters, in whose name this hearing was supposedly called, are prosecuted and imprisoned, [30:08] the good people of Minnesota will still be picking up the pieces from these senseless acts of cruelty and violence. [30:14] As we forge ahead, I hope Minnesotans will remain grounded in a sense of justice, a sense of right and wrong. [30:20] We know that the way to deter crime is to pursue offenders regardless of who they are, not to pardon them because of who they know. [30:27] We understand that a key to keeping our people safe is to allow prosecutors to uphold the law, not to punish them for refusing to violate it. [30:35] And we appreciate that public trust comes from building common-sense anti-fraud safeguards into our programs, not by tearing down established norms. [30:44] I've been invited here today to talk about how Minnesota pursues these objectives, and I hope we can have a conversation about how to strengthen program integrity in every state in the nation. [30:53] A single taxpayer dollar wasted on fraud is a dollar we can't tolerate. [30:58] That's why, as governor, I have taken decisive action. [31:01] I appointed a head of program integrity to oversee statewide anti-fraud efforts. [31:05] I created the position of inspector general at the Minnesota Department of Education. [31:09] At the Department of Human Services, I ordered data-driven reviews and, where appropriate, corrective action against providers. [31:16] I've directed my administration to work with our partners in state, federal, and tribal law enforcement to make sure that fraudsters go to jail. [31:23] Our cooperation with the FBI and the Department of Justice have led to serious criminal charges for over 75 individuals. [31:30] Most importantly, year in and year out, and long before Minnesota programs were featured on right-wing social media, [31:37] I've worked with the Minnesota legislature to give state agencies the authority they need to take action based on red flags when they discover them. [31:44] There's undoubtedly more to do. [31:46] We'll continue to do the important work of combating fraud, but as we do so, we're going to remain true to Minnesota principles. [31:53] We will feed our hungry children. [31:55] We will help the poor afford health care. [31:57] We will assist people with disabilities while also keeping fraud in check. [32:02] We'll demonstrate our decency, our integrity, and never yield to political scapegoating, particularly of our most vulnerable communities. [32:10] In these extraordinarily trying times, the people of Minnesota have come together to show the world their values. [32:18] I'm proud and honored to be their governor, and I look forward to today's questions. [32:23] Thank you, Governor. [32:24] We now recognize Attorney General Ellison. [32:28] Thank you, Chairman Comer, and thank you, Ranking Member Garcia, and thank you to all the members of the committee. [32:36] My name is Keith Ellison, and I have the honor of serving as Minnesota's Attorney General. [32:41] You have invited me here today to speak about the topic I feel very strongly about, fraud enforcement. [32:49] I look forward to discussing the contributions of my office and the contributions we've made to fighting fraud in our state. [32:56] Fraud in government programs is reprehensible. [32:59] It takes food from the tables of the hungry. [33:01] It takes shelter from those without it. [33:04] I have worked every day as Attorney General to hold fraudsters accountable, and I'm proud of our record. [33:09] We've won 300 Medicaid fraud convictions, more than any other state of similar size, and recovered over $80 million for Minnesota taxpayers. [33:21] We've returned tens of millions of dollars to victims of consumer fraud in Minnesota. [33:26] Since 2019, our Charities Division has resolved over 50 investigations and dissolved 17 sham nonprofits. [33:35] It's important to note that under Minnesota law, my office has limited jurisdiction over criminal matters. [33:43] The only kind of criminal case we can prosecute all on our own is Medicaid fraud. [33:48] Any other kind of criminal case must be referred to us by county attorneys. [33:56] Still, we've punched above our weight where we do have criminal jurisdiction. [34:00] I'm proud of that. [34:02] Over the past six years, my Medicaid fraud control unit has ranked fifth in the nation in fraud convictions. [34:11] Last week, I urged the state legislators to pass a bipartisan Medical Assistance Protection Act, [34:16] which would give us additional resources to prosecute Medicaid fraudsters. [34:21] Where fraud occurs outside of our jurisdiction, my office has and will continue assisting our local and federal partners. [34:30] When our help is requested, we support our 87 county attorneys in Minnesota, [34:35] and we regularly coordinate with federal investigators and prosecutors to combat fraud. [34:43] That type of collaboration between enforcers at all levels of the government is essential in this fight. [34:48] And that is why, if we are to discuss law enforcement efforts in Minnesota, [34:53] we cannot ignore the devastating effects of Operation Metro Search. [34:59] As you know, the Trump administration, on the pretext of fighting fraud, [35:04] unleashed over 3,000 masked armed agents on the streets of Minnesota. [35:10] And as a result, two U.S. citizens were killed by federal agents. [35:15] Renee Good and Alex Preddy, federal law enforcement, still refuses to cooperate with us in investigating their deaths. [35:24] Young, innocent children were detained and traumatized. [35:28] Schools and businesses were forced to close, costing countless families their jobs, [35:33] their livelihoods, their education, and costing our state hundreds of millions of dollars in economic damage. [35:41] Operation Metro Search did nothing to address fraud in our state. [35:45] It harmed our economy, it scarred our people, and it dealt a devastating blow to fraud enforcement in Minnesota. [35:54] As a result of Metro Search, federal prosecutors' efforts to fight fraud in Minnesota have suffered a major setback. [36:03] In the U.S. Attorney's Office, six high-ranking attorneys resigned because of the Department of Justice pressured them to [36:11] investigate Renee Good's grieving widow. [36:17] Eight more prosecutors then followed. [36:19] The remaining staff should be spending their time prosecuting fraudsters and criminals. [36:25] Instead, they are drowning in immigration-related petitions resulting from Operation Metro Search. [36:33] Mr. Chair, members of the committee, we cannot combat fraud without consistent messaging and support from our political leaders. [36:42] All sides, Republicans and Democrats, the federal government and the states, must work together if we are going to win the fight against those who would steal from the public. [36:52] We need our leaders to unite in that effort, not to use it as a political tool to score political points. [37:00] I stand ready and willing to work with the members of this committee to advance the cause of holding fraudsters accountable. [37:06] Now more than ever, we need coordinated, cooperative engagement across law enforcement if we are to achieve our goals. [37:14] I look forward to your questions. [37:16] Thank you, General. [37:18] I now recognize Reverend Tolgaard for her opening statement. [37:21] Chairman, ranking members, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak today. [37:30] I am the Reverend Maria Tolgaard and I serve as senior pastor at Hamlin Church United Methodist in St. Paul, Minnesota. [37:39] I come before you today in my personal capacity as a pastor, as a citizen, as a mother, an ordinary Minnesotan who has witnessed up close the fear and harm that Operation Metro Search has inflicted on our state. [37:56] The hearing today is about fraud in Minnesota, which is serving as a pretext for the terror the federal government has brought to the people of Minnesota. [38:05] This fraud has been used as a rationale for deploying 3,000 federal immigration enforcement agents into our state in operations that target the most vulnerable among us, but are indiscriminately impacting all of us. [38:21] Let me tell you about what this looks like where I live. [38:24] In my church, members have been afraid to come to worship and have even postponed funerals. [38:31] An elderly Hmong man in our city, a U.S. citizen, was taken from his home in the freezing cold, wearing only his underwear and a blanket. [38:41] Ice vehicles drive recklessly through our neighborhoods in packs of four to six, stopping people of color for proof of citizenship, including a local police officer. [38:52] In St. Paul Public Schools, where my three daughters attend, nearly a quarter of students enrolled in distance learning because families were too afraid to leave their homes. [39:03] My eight-year-old struggles to sleep at night because she is afraid ICE agents might break into our house. [39:11] At local elementary schools in Minnesota and across the country, students are practicing drills for what to do if ICE is near their school. [39:21] Let that sit with you. American children are now practicing two kinds of drills at school, one for an active shooter and one to protect themselves from their own government. [39:37] That is not security. That is a nation failing its children. [39:42] This is happening to all of our neighbors in Minnesota. [39:47] Every Minnesotan has stories that will stay with you, from hearing of someone hiding in a walking cooler or the back room when ICE stormed into their workplace, [39:56] to friends and family members being followed when dropping off their children at daycare. [40:01] In Minnesota, we love our neighbors. We care for one another. And because we believe that every person bears the image of God, [40:11] we've built systems that reflect that belief. Free meals for all children, health care for families who need it, schools where every kid belongs. [40:21] That's what love of neighbor looks like in action. [40:26] This administration has targeted Minnesota because we live out our values of loving our neighbors. [40:32] These tactics aimed at undermining those values have not succeeded. [40:37] When unidentified masked agents appeared on our streets, Minnesotans put on their own uniforms and it said neighbor. [40:46] Motivated by faith and conscience, we bought groceries for families in hiding, we paid rent, we drove children to school, we stood vigil at mosques, [40:57] we served as constitutional observers, we pledged to care for children if parents were detained, we sang, we marched, we prayed. [41:07] As a pastor, I say to you, if you feel even a flicker of discomfort hearing these stories, pay attention to it. [41:17] If you hear about children like Liam Ramos, if you saw the videos of the murders of Alex Preddy and Renee Goode, [41:26] if you know of workers arrested in the very restaurants where they serve federal agents their meals, [41:33] if you understand that citizens and legal residents have been wrongfully detained and something in you tightens, [41:41] that is not partisanship, that is conscience. [41:44] In my faith tradition, we call that the still, quiet voice, the voice of God. [41:50] It's not too late to listen, to change our minds, our hearts, and our policies. [41:55] To the members of this committee and our leaders across government, the question I leave with you is simple. [42:02] What are you willing to do about it? [42:04] Your silence has a cost and it is being paid right now by children who cannot sleep, families who cannot grieve, [42:11] and communities that are hollowed out. [42:14] To Americans across the country and those watching from home and particularly to the families still too afraid to leave their houses, [42:22] there are more people fighting for you than you know. [42:26] Jesus teaches us in Matthew 25, [42:29] whatever you do for the least of these, you do unto me. [42:33] History will tell its story about us, but long before then, our own souls will know whether we stood with them or turned away. [42:41] No nation can build a true future on the terror of its own people. [42:47] Security built on fear will shatter the first time it is tested. [42:54] Only a community that chooses love of neighbor over fear will endure, and that is still within our power to become. [43:03] Thank you for allowing me to share our story. [43:06] I am deeply proud to be a Minnesotan. [43:09] Thank you. [43:10] Without objection, Majority Whip Tom Emmer from Minnesota and Representative McCollum, also of Minnesota, [43:17] are waved on to the committee for the purpose of questioning witnesses at today's committee hearing. [43:22] Without objection, so ordered. [43:25] And now, okay, I'd like to recognize Representative McCollum for UC. [43:34] Thank you, Mr. Chair. [43:36] I would like to, for the record, have a unanimous request put in with a statement. [43:41] Thank you. [43:41] Without objection, so ordered. [43:43] I will now begin our questions, and Chair recognizes the Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. [43:49] Mr. Jordan from Ohio. [43:51] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [43:52] Governor, why didn't you tell the truth? [43:55] Why didn't you just tell the truth about the Feeding Our Future program? [43:59] This program, my understanding, received $3 million the first year. [44:03] Within a couple years, was getting $200 million of taxpayer money. [44:08] Whistleblowers raised concerns. [44:09] As the Chairman said, auditors raised concerns. [44:12] Everybody raised concerns. [44:14] March 30th, 2021, the payments are stopped. [44:17] And a little over a month later, the payments are restarted. [44:20] Why didn't you tell the truth about why you restarted the payments? [44:23] Well, Chairman, we did tell you. [44:30] And Feeding Our Future grew because of the pandemic. [44:33] When I asked that question, I said, why didn't you tell the truth about why you restarted the payments? [44:38] The payments stopped, because there were concerns, obviously. [44:41] He wouldn't stop the payments. [44:42] Then they're restarted a month later. [44:44] What was the reason for restarting the payments? [44:46] My understanding was the agency believed that the court had required them to make those payments. [44:54] And that was false, wasn't it? [44:55] I think that is— [44:56] You repeated that. [44:56] You said that, didn't you? [44:57] I don't think— [44:58] You said the reason you restarted is because the court ordered you to do so. [45:01] Is that right? [45:02] I don't believe that is settled yet, to the best of my knowledge. [45:07] Well, I think it is. [45:08] Because the court did something that I just don't—I don't know if I've ever seen it. [45:12] They issued a statement saying you were wrong in what you were saying. [45:17] This is from the court. [45:18] It says, feeding our future versus Minnesota Department of Education, correcting reports [45:23] and statements by Governor Tim Walz concerning orders issued by the court. [45:28] Here's what the judge says. [45:30] Governor Tim Walz told the media that the Minnesota Department of Education attempted [45:34] in-payments to FOF because of possible fraud, but that Judge Guthman ordered payments to continue [45:40] in April 2021. [45:42] Next sentence. [45:43] That is false. [45:45] So you said something that wasn't true. [45:47] He further states this, Judge Guthman, the court says this, Judge Guthman never ordered [45:51] the Department of Education to resume payments to Feeding Our Future in April 2021 [45:56] or at any other time. [45:58] So I want to know, why didn't you tell the truth? [46:02] Congressman, the attorneys at the Department of Education interpreted that differently. [46:06] Both of those judges are no longer on the bench. [46:09] And I think that interpretation— [46:10] Let me just read the very first sentence. [46:12] The first seven words. [46:14] This is not some unnamed source talking to the New York Times. [46:17] This is not some anonymous source talking to [46:20] whatever your Minnesota Star Tribune or whatever your paper is. [46:24] This is the court speaking. [46:26] First sentence, first seven words. [46:29] Due to inaccurate statements by the governor, [46:33] Ramsey County District Court Judge has issued and authorized that this following news released. [46:38] That's pretty straightforward. [46:39] So the court's lying? [46:40] I can't tell you, Congressman, but the interpretation— [46:45] Somebody's lying. [46:45] Somebody's lying because you can't say the court ordered you to restart the payments, [46:49] and then the court says we didn't order you to restart the payments. [46:52] So either you're lying or the court's lying. [46:55] And I'm just asking you, which one is it? [46:57] I just simply know what the attorneys at the agency believe that it was a misinterpretation. [47:02] And I would note that those payments— [47:03] Could it be you were trying to hide behind the court, Governor? [47:06] Could that maybe be the reason why you issued the statements you did and why the court had to do [47:11] something you never see done before? The issue of press statements saying you're wrong. The governor [47:15] is wrong. His statement is—their words, not mine—false. Could that be the reason? [47:23] That was not the interpretation of the attorneys. And you know, court work. You can appeal those [47:28] congressmen, as you well know. I'm sure they're— [47:29] Is it all about politics, Governor? [47:31] No, it's about taking care of our people, which Minnesota does better than anyone else. [47:35] $2 million. The Behavioral Intervention Program went from $3 million to $400 million in five years. [47:39] The housing stabilization went from $2.6 million to $104 million. The integrated community supports [47:44] went from $4.6 million to $170 million in three years. And this is unbelievable what's happening. [47:49] And you're trying to hide behind some pretend court order, some court order that didn't exist. [47:54] Governor, who's Casey Magan? I don't know who Casey Magan is. [47:58] I'll tell you. Mr. Magan is a Somali-American and a fraud investigator in the guy beside you's office, [48:03] in the Attorney General's office. And here's what he said. [48:07] There was a perception that forcefully tackling this issue might cause political backlash among [48:11] the Somali community, which is a core voting block. Did that have anything to do with this [48:15] whole fraud scheme that went on in your state, Governor? [48:17] It did not, Congressman. [48:19] It did not. So now you're saying Mr. Casey Magan is lying too? [48:24] I'm not. [48:24] You're the only one telling the truth in the whole state. Mr. Magan, who's a fraud [48:28] investigator at the Attorney General's office, says it's politics. [48:31] I couldn't speak for Mr. Magan. You asked me a question. [48:35] I know. [48:36] And I said no when you asked me the question. [48:38] I'm saying Casey Magan said just the option. [48:40] I don't know. [48:41] So the court's wrong and Casey Magan's wrong. You're the only guy right. [48:44] How many people have been indicted in your state right now? Do you know, Governor? [48:47] I don't have those numbers with me. [48:49] You don't? 98 people have been indicted? You happen to know how many are Somali-American? [48:55] I don't. We don't investigate or prosecute people based on ethnicity. [48:59] Neither do I. We shouldn't do that. [49:00] But Mr. Magan is a Somali-American who just said that one of the concerns was this is a [49:06] core voting bloc. And I just want to know if you know how many of the 98 people have been [49:09] indicted in your state are Somali? [49:10] I don't. Their ethnicity is not my concern. [49:13] Eighty-five. Eighty-five percent of the people indicted were Somali-American, [49:17] key voting bloc. And I think that's what drove this whole thing. With that, I yield back. [49:21] The gentleman yields back. Before I recognize the ranking member, it's my understanding. [49:26] Mr. Biggs, you seek recognition. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have some UCs. [49:32] Here you go. Biden's clemency for convicted fraudsters met with outrage. Next one. Biden's [49:39] clemency and pardon list includes former elected officials. Next one. The drug dealers, thieves, [49:44] and gang leaders granted clemency by Joe Biden. Next one. North Dakota judge blasts Biden for setting [49:50] fraudsters free. Next one. Victims shocked after Biden grants clemency to kids for cash. Next one. [49:57] Who has Joe Biden pardoned? Without objection. So order chair now recognizes ranking member Garcia [50:04] from California. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to thank, of course, our witnesses again for [50:10] being here. Now, of course, over the past two months, countless brave Minnesotans have shared [50:14] their stories of heartbreak and violence and terror, not just with us in this committee, [50:18] but with folks across the country. Peaceful protesters are being shot in the streets. [50:23] Children have been snatched from their schools. People dragged from their cars and tackled at work. [50:28] And we know the parents, of course, have been missing work and children have been missing [50:32] school. Now, Reverend Tolgaard, I want the country to really understand the effects on kids. Are you [50:38] seeing families who can't go to work, who can't go grocery shopping, and who are being detained? [50:43] Reportedly, almost 4,000. That must be terrifying. Is that correct? That is absolutely terrifying for [50:50] children to hear these stories and to fear for that experience. And would you say that kids are scared [50:56] at their school? Kids are scared at their schools. Parents are scared of what's going to happen to [51:01] their children. Would you say that is correct also? Yes, that is correct. Well, thank you. Now, [51:05] we're discussing the violence and brutality that's happened. And I want to show another image that's [51:08] kind of difficult, I think, to see, but I think it's important for the American public [51:12] to continue to see it. Now, this is the driver's seat of Renee Good's car seat after an ICE agent shot [51:18] her dead. Now, Reverend Tolgaard, are families in the community afraid that this sort of horrific [51:25] image could happen to them next? Yes. Are kids scared that this type of horrific image could happen [51:33] to one of their parents? Kids like my own, kids like the kids in my church are afraid that [51:39] that could happen to their parents when they speak out. And let's remember that an ICE agent specifically [51:46] told a protester, have you all not learned from the past couple of days? This is just two days after [51:52] Renee Good was shot. That is being told to people on the ground in Minneapolis and across the country, [51:59] across Minnesota, and it's not acceptable. We should be clear here. This violence does not make us safer. [52:05] It does not address fraud, waste and abuse. It doesn't help families with health care, [52:10] does not grow or build small businesses. And it's certainly, as we're continuing to discuss, [52:15] is not preventing the kind of fraud that Republicans are discussing here today. [52:20] Now, Governor, can you walk us through specifically how Operation Metro Surge [52:25] affected Minnesota's ability to investigate actual fraud? [52:29] Well, thank you, Congressman. Well, first of all, as I've said, we've been partners with the federal, [52:36] our federal partners, whether that be the FBI or be the U.S. Attorney's Office, which I will note [52:40] was one of the premier U.S. Attorney's Office, regardless of who they were appointed by. Right now, [52:46] those lead investigators and basically that whole team has left that office. They've not been [52:52] filled back in. The U.S. Attorney himself was in front of a federal judge yesterday [52:58] on contempt issues of that office not working together. Now, look, we're going to prosecute, [53:04] as we have, every single person that's involved in fraud, but we can't do it alone. The Attorney [53:08] General's Office is doing everything they can. He has consistently come and asked the legislature for [53:14] more money, more of the investigators he needs, but right now is the backlog at the U.S. Attorney's Office [53:20] is being challenged by the federal courts. It makes it more difficult for us to get those cases over to [53:25] them, but the good news is the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension is continuing to do those. [53:31] We've got a conviction this week. Those are things that will continue on, and while we need to put in [53:38] all the safeguards, we need to, as you heard the Attorney General's opening statement, if we partner [53:43] together in this, our chance of defeating this fraud is that much higher. But right now, [53:48] it's stymied. There's no investigators over. There's no U.S. attorneys. The FBI has been [53:53] decimated, and it's very difficult. And that right there, the American public needs to hear. [53:59] I mean, it's completely outrageous what's happened to those that are actually trying to take on fraud [54:06] in Minnesota and across the country. Those offices have been decimated, and there's no support, [54:12] not acceptable. And, Governor, finally, there appears to be actually no evidence that ICE and DHS [54:19] reign of terror in Minnesota, that continues, has actually prevented any fraud. Is that your [54:25] assessment, sir? That's correct. What you saw on the streets didn't do anything to it. And we've [54:31] actively asked, if you have folks who can help us, if you have folks who are good at the forensics, [54:36] if you can help us do this, we want you there, as we have for the last seven years that I've been [54:41] Governor. We've partnered together and convicted people. Thank you. And with that, I also, just for the [54:45] record, I want to introduce our report, as well. Today, the Democratic staff released it, as well, [54:50] as far as relates to this hearing and Operation Metro Surge. So, thank you, Mr. Chairman. [54:53] Without objection to order, Chair now recognizes our Majority Whip, Representative Emmer from Minnesota. [55:00] Thank you, Chairman Comer. And actually, thank you, Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison, [55:05] for appearing before the committee today. Gentlemen, let's see if we can agree on at least one thing [55:10] today. Today's hearing is titled, Oversight of Fraud and Misuse of Federal Funds in Minnesota. [55:16] Can we agree that this fraud is a serious thing, Governor Walz? Yes or no? Can we agree on that? [55:22] Yes, any fraud is serious. Thank you. Because it's interesting that you and I agree that it's a [55:28] serious thing, considering the man sitting next to you, your Attorney General, Keith Ellison, just two [55:33] months ago, said, quote, this is a political matter. This is not a serious thing, end quote. [55:40] Attorney General Ellison, is there an organized crime ring operating in Minnesota? I'll answer for [55:51] you, sir. Governor Walz believes there is an active crime ring in our state. In October, the governor [55:57] said, quote, we've got an organized crime ring in Minnesota. I think it's been going on for years. [56:04] Moving on, Mr. Ellison, I, along with millions of Americans, have grave concerns over [56:09] your alleged relationships with Somali fraudsters who have since been charged and convicted of [56:15] federal crimes. I'm sure you are aware that over 90% of the defendants charged in the Feeding Our [56:20] Future fraud case are of Somali descent. In fact, you have personal knowledge of these people. There's [56:26] a 54-minute audio tape of your meeting with these criminals in December of 2021. And during your meeting, [56:34] they complained to you about increased scrutiny of their nonprofits, and you told them, quote, [56:40] of course I'm here to help, end quote. It's on the internet. Anyone can listen to you say that. [56:47] Since then, you claim you were not aware of their crimes in the $250 million Feeding Our Future scheme, [56:55] the largest pandemic fraud case in the nation. But just weeks after your December 2021 meeting, [57:01] the FBI executed search warrants that you never would have requested in the Feeding Our Future [57:07] fraud investigation. Now, let's fast forward to September of 2022, 10 months after you met with [57:14] the Somali fraudsters. Your office issued a press release stating, quote, Minnesota Attorney General [57:20] Keith Ellison and his office have been deeply involved for two years in holding Feeding Our Future [57:26] accountable, end quote. So, according to your office, sir, you have been deeply involved in the [57:32] Feeding Our Future case since September of 2020. That actually sounds like you are saying that at the [57:38] time of your infamous meeting with the Somali fraudsters, you were already aware of the allegations [57:44] of fraud. When you had this meeting in December 2021, did you know, sir, about the long-running FBI [57:51] investigation in defeating our future? Yes or no? Mr. Chairman, Representative Emmer. Reclaiming my time, [58:00] when did you personally become aware of the FBI investigation? That's all I'm asking. Representative Emmer, [58:08] as you know, I have addressed this issue many times. All right. Reclaiming my time. In that same [58:14] meeting with the fraudsters, Mr. Attorney General, you took aim at the Minnesota Department of Education. You [58:20] stated that the Minnesota Department of Education had fought the nonprofit in very disgusting ways, [58:26] in a very racist, xenophobic, and Islamophobic manner. You actually asked for the names of all [58:33] these folks who are just hung up and offered to call the Minnesota Department of Education to, quote, [58:38] demand some explanations. We now know that when you made these comments, the Biden DOJ was working with [58:45] the Minnesota Department of Education and that their work exposed the massive fraud ring. [58:50] Pretty bad look for you, sir. Either you were oblivious to what was going on under your nose, [58:56] or worse, you were trying to obstruct the work of the Minnesota Department of Education. So, [59:02] I can see the time is getting short. Mr. Chairman, we are left with two questions. One, [59:09] what did Governor Walz and Keith Ellison know about the fraud? And two, when did they actually know it? [59:16] I would suggest that if they do not give direct and truthful answers to both these questions at this [59:23] hearing, then they both need to be put under oath in a deposition. This is a serious thing, [59:29] Mr. Attorney General. You are the only one who thinks protecting taxpayer dollars is political. [59:36] Mr. Ellison, my concern is that you actively obstructed this investigation in exchange for campaign [59:43] donations, a quid pro quo. If these concerns are proven to be true, you should be disbarred and you [59:50] should go to jail. I yield back. The gentleman yields back. The Chair now recognizes Ms. Norton [59:55] from Washington, D.C. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is critical that the federal government support people [1:00:06] who need assistance with food, housing, and health care. Unfortunately, as long as [1:00:13] the government provides these services, there will be bad actors trying to take advantage of them. We [1:00:22] need to prevent and identify these fraudsters so that social services can reach those who need them. [1:00:31] However, we cannot recklessly deny help to many people who need services because of a few bad actors. [1:00:42] Mr. My Republican colleagues have now held two hearings to talk about fraud in one single state, [1:00:54] but they have completely ignored the fact that the Trump administration is the most corrupt [1:01:02] administration in history. If Republicans really cared about fraud, abuse, and holding criminals [1:01:10] accountable, they would call them out. Donald Trump for firing 17 inspectors general. These internal [1:01:26] watchdogs are the front line of rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse at federal agencies. The Trump [1:01:37] administration has also retaliated against whistleblowers and allowed administration officials to engage in [1:01:49] serious conflicts of interest that often cross the line into outright corruption. We need inspectors [1:02:03] general whistleblowers and rules prohibiting conflicts of interest to protect federal programs and make sure that [1:02:16] people can get the services they need. Across the country, Americans are struggling to afford their health care premiums and [1:02:27] groceries. The Trump administration should be strengthening the social safety net, not cutting [1:02:36] the safeguards that catch the fraudsters taking advantage of it. And I yield back. [1:02:44] The gentlelady yields back. I'll now recognize myself for five minutes. Governor Walz and Attorney General [1:02:50] Ellison, my questions are going to be simple and direct. Governor Walz, you were inaugurated as governor on [1:02:54] January 17, 2019, and have served in that role through two terms ever since, correct? That's correct, [1:03:01] Mr. Chairman. During the time period 2019 and 2020, while you were serving as governor, isn't it true that [1:03:06] state auditors and officials raised concerns about fraud and vulnerabilities in programs overseen [1:03:11] by your administration? I can't confirm that, but I'm assuming we have always ongoing OLA. I'll take that [1:03:18] as a yes. Those warnings were communicated to senior officials in your administration, including yourself, [1:03:23] correct? I can't speak if it was directly. I think the correct answer to that would also be yes. [1:03:30] Despite those warnings, you did not order a broad stop payment or suspension of payment in any program [1:03:36] at that time, correct? We're not going to stop payments of feed children until we have the proof that [1:03:43] things happened. In 2019, we did start taking action. I went to the legislature. Okay, Governor Walz, [1:03:48] when fraud concerns were raised early in your tenure in the child care assistance program, did your [1:03:53] administration stop payments at that time? The child care assistance program? The answer is no. [1:04:01] When fraud concerns were raised... Would you like me to answer or not? It's yes or no. I want you to help. [1:04:06] You've already answered the question. You said you didn't ever stop payments, and that's what the [1:04:10] problem is, and that's what the Democrats are complaining about. Oh my gosh, Trump stopped payments. [1:04:14] Well, my God, you've lost billions to fraud in Minnesota. That's what this hearing is about. You didn't [1:04:21] stop payments because you didn't want to rock the boat, and when fraud concerns were raised in Medicaid, [1:04:30] home and community-based services, did your administration stop payments? No, you did not. [1:04:36] When fraud concerns were raised in non-emergency medical transportation, did your administration [1:04:42] stop payments? Chairman, if I could mention what a stop payment meant by what the administration did last [1:04:46] week is 400,000 children without health care. Are you stopping payment if one person... We believe [1:04:52] that's your fault and the attorney general's fault because you do nothing about fraud even though [1:04:58] everyone in America sees... Our Medicare error rate is lower than your state. You have been defrauded. You have [1:05:04] not been good stewards of the taxpayer dollars, and the Democrat position is, well, keep the money flowing. [1:05:10] The American taxpayers have had enough. They want their taxpayer dollars spent wisely. We all support [1:05:18] social programs to the vulnerable, but if you're going to waste the money to fraudsters, then we have [1:05:24] to stop and recalculate. We're not. We're putting them in jail when we can, Chairman, and some of these [1:05:29] programs are crafted in such a way that there's a procedure to follow, and I'm with you. One dollar is too [1:05:34] much. I don't think there's a lot of difference here if you want to help us get at this. The question is, [1:05:39] is it a sledgehammer? Is it a scalpel? I understand there's no political upside. Let's get into what [1:05:45] we've talked about. You eventually did pause payments in certain programs, but that wasn't until [1:05:52] late 2025 after the federal government stepped in. Is that correct? I don't think that's a fair [1:05:58] characterization of stepped in. We've been partners in this and working on them, but... Let's move on. [1:06:03] And that decision occurred only after large-scale fraud had already taken place for years. Now, Governor [1:06:10] Walsh, employees inside state agencies raised concerns about fraud and improper payments for [1:06:15] years. Is that correct? Inside agencies? We've been prosecuting them for years. Yes. But they have [1:06:22] raised concern. Agencies have raised concern about fraud in Minnesota, correct? Each of those... Yes, [1:06:28] when they do, and they're prosecuted. Yes. Some of those employees faced retaliation [1:06:33] after raising those concerns. Is that correct? That is not correct, Chairman. Okay. Minnesota has strong [1:06:39] whistleblower protections. Attorney General Ellison, you are the Chief Legal Officer of the [1:06:43] State of Minnesota, correct? Yes. Your office advises agencies on compliance with federal and state law, [1:06:49] correct? Yes. Retaliation against whistleblowers reporting fraud is unlawful, correct? That is right. [1:06:56] At any point during your tenure, did you tell state agencies to stop payments due to credible fraud [1:07:01] allegations? Yes or no? Sir, we prosecuted over 300 people in the Medicaid fraud area. 300, I would [1:07:12] predict is a drop in the bucket. But you've never said to stop payments. That's what... [1:07:17] It's one of the highest rates in the country, sir. Well, you have one of the highest fraud rates in [1:07:21] the country in Minnesota. Yeah. That's not true. And my office doesn't have the authority to do a stop [1:07:27] payment. We prosecute criminals when they're presented us by the agents. So the answer is no, [1:07:34] unfortunately. No one's ever, from your office, said to stop payments until we can get the fraud [1:07:39] under control. So to summarize, you both knew about fraud risks and payments continued. Our [1:07:44] investigation has shown that whistleblowers who were alerted about the widespread fraud were ignored, [1:07:49] sidelined, and even retaliated against. Only after federal authorities ultimately stepped in did you [1:07:54] take any action. It's not this committee's responsibility to decide guilt or dole out punishment, [1:08:02] but it's clear there was a massive failure of oversight and, quite frankly, a failure of [1:08:06] leadership. One wonders whether either of you should bear some personal responsibility for [1:08:11] the billions of dollars siphoned off by fraudsters under your noses in the state that you led. Again, [1:08:17] this isn't for the committee to decide, but based on your answers today and apparent failure to take any [1:08:21] responsibility, still the answer to that question has become abundantly clear. And now, [1:08:28] I recognize- Mr. Chair, I seek unanimous consent to enter items into the record. [1:08:32] All right. Before I recognize Mr. Lynch, Ms. Randall, you have a UC? [1:08:35] Thank you. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a November 12th, 2025 article from [1:08:42] ProPublica entitled, How Trump Has Exploited Pardons and Clemency to Reward Allies and Supporters, [1:08:47] which shows President Trump rewards those in his good graces. I also seek recognition [1:08:52] to insert into the record a Washington Post article from December 19th, 2025 entitled, [1:08:57] Trump's Pardons Wipe Out Payments to Defrauded Victims, which shows that President Trump lets [1:09:02] criminals and fraudsters walk free. And I also seek unanimous consent to enter into the record [1:09:06] an article from May 29th, 2025 from ABC News titled, Trump's Flurry of Pardons Include Some to Campaign [1:09:13] Contributors. And Ms. Presley, we'll do one at a time. We'll go to Mr. Lynch, then I'll recognize you. [1:09:20] Mr. Lynch from Massachusetts. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor, good to see you, my friend. [1:09:27] Attorney General Ellison, good to see you again. Reverend, thank you for your willingness to [1:09:32] testify before the committee. I want to shift gears here a minute, and I want to focus on ice. [1:09:37] So I was recently asked to serve as the co-chair of the FIFA 26 soccer tournament, [1:09:44] it's a global tournament, the largest sporting event in the world. And my home city of Boston has [1:09:52] been asked to host a lot of the games. In Boston, we'll host teams from Morocco, Ghana, Bolivia, Iraq, [1:10:04] Scotland, France, England, and Suriname. We'll also host over three million foreign national visitors [1:10:15] who are coming into Boston for these tournaments. And we recently learned from the Trump administration [1:10:21] that ice will play a key role in the security operations during those games. So we've got all [1:10:30] these people flying in, foreign nationals, a lot of different countries, South America and elsewhere. [1:10:38] Governor, since you've had direct and relevant experience on dealing with the metro surge and [1:10:45] and the security operations of ice, I was interested in getting your thoughts and your observations and [1:10:53] any recommendations you might have to help us with confronting our experience or what we expect [1:11:00] to see during these games with with ice coming in as well as so many foreign visitors. [1:11:07] Well, as I think the world saw, and don't take my word for it, take professional law enforcement [1:11:14] across Minnesota and across the country, the most unprofessional, aggressive force that I think you [1:11:22] could imagine. And I was here in front of this committee and answered all your questions on June 12th. [1:11:27] And I warned this committee what a masked group of folks turned loose in an American city could do. [1:11:37] And I'm not if I'm not mistaken, I said someone could get killed doing this. And I just want to be [1:11:42] very clear about this. When Tom Holman had to come in to clean up the mess of Secretary Noem and Greg Bovino, [1:11:49] Secretary Holman himself acknowledged Minnesota follows the law exactly as I told you in this committee. [1:11:58] So my advice to you, Mr. Lynch, is to get very public upfront commitments from these folks. [1:12:08] While I disagree with Mr. Holman's views on many things, he's at least professional enough that he [1:12:13] pulled the leash back and pulled these folks out of Minnesota after again, misrepresenting the number of [1:12:20] people they were detaining, misrepresenting before he got there exactly what Minnesota did. And I'm [1:12:26] just going to name it on accountability. The secretary of DHS, being chastised by Republican senators, [1:12:34] added insult to injury to Minnesota, pouring salt in the wounds of the parents of Alex Preddy [1:12:40] and Renee Good's family by not even apologizing or acknowledging. And if you want accountability, [1:12:46] for one of the times, as far as I know, the attorneys know better, we are not being included [1:12:50] in the investigation. And the actions that were taken of a gentleman who was shot in the leg [1:12:57] was the night that Kristi Noem called me a domestic terrorist and said that this gentleman was attacking [1:13:03] federal agents. Well, now we know the story. They lied. They are now under investigation, [1:13:08] they being the federal agents. So look, I'm with you. I want your help on fraud. Why would I not want [1:13:14] money to go to the programs? I care deeply about feeding people, clothing people, housing people. [1:13:19] But what ICE did disrupted everything that we were doing. It disrupted our federal partners [1:13:26] and it forced our law enforcement agencies who have worked hard to gain the public trust [1:13:32] to have the public believe in them. So my advice to you is, and especially when the world's coming to [1:13:37] see this, let Boston's finest lead. Let the people of Massachusetts lead. Let the 10th amendment stand [1:13:44] for something and allow us to be able to do this. The people of Minnesota will hold us accountable if [1:13:50] they don't feel we're doing a good enough job. But to demonize and retribution against a state in the [1:13:55] words of the president, in the words of the vice president, have done nothing. So Mr. Lynch, [1:14:01] the world should be looking forward to coming, but I would get it up front and I would make sure that [1:14:05] Boston's police department are in the lead. Thank you. Attorney General Ellison, we need coordination [1:14:11] between law enforcement agencies. It's a big job. What are your views on that likelihood of cooperation [1:14:17] from ICE? Well, I hope you get the cooperation that you need. In Minnesota, we don't have a good [1:14:23] record of cooperation, which is interesting because so many times in the past, we have had great cooperation [1:14:29] between local federal enforcers and local state ones, and we've just worked seamlessly. Nowadays, [1:14:36] that has all changed, and that's quite unfortunate. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you for [1:14:41] the courtesy. Gentleman yields back. Ms. Presley. Thank you. I ask unanimous consent to enter the record [1:14:47] of February 2026 letter from 200 state lawmakers urging Congress to exercise its oversight authority [1:14:54] and demand the administration immediately restore full child care funding that had frozen four or five [1:15:00] states. With that objection, it's ordered. Chair recognizes Dr. Fox from North Carolina. [1:15:08] Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank our witnesses for being here. Governor, you've reminded people that [1:15:14] you were here last June. At that time, I reminded you that the Feeding Our Future scam made Minnesota [1:15:21] ground zero for the largest COVID-19 fraud scheme in the nation. $250 million in federal taxpayer funds [1:15:28] were taken out of the mouths of hungry children, and as the FBI noted, they were, quote, funneled into [1:15:34] luxury homes, cars, and lavish lifestyles while families struggled. You assured me then that you wholeheartedly [1:15:43] supported the federal government's effort to bring those responsible to justice. I appreciate your sentiment, [1:15:49] but a person's actions matter more than their words. Governor Walz, when did you first become aware [1:15:56] of the fraud in Feeding Our Future? A specific date, please. Well, Congressman, it's good to see you, [1:16:05] and having served in your job for 12 years, I can tell you my job is a little different as governor [1:16:09] for seven years. I take a lot of meetings. I certainly wouldn't specifically state, but I think [1:16:16] during that pandemic, I think by late 2020, we started to see the irregularities. They were flagged, [1:16:23] and I will note that we cooperated. But state officials were aware of the fraud in early 2020. [1:16:32] So you're asking when I, in my office, the governor became good, and I don't have a specific date, [1:16:37] but what I would say is we provided witnesses, documents, the U.S. Attorney and the FBI, [1:16:42] and 79 of those people have been prosecuted going back to 2022. Okay. Well, when I was chair of the [1:16:48] Committee on Education and the Workforce, I issued you a subpoena in September 2024 because you and [1:16:54] your administration were not forthcoming about how your administration, quote, failed to identify what [1:17:01] has been described as the largest pandemic fraud in the nation, end quote. In September 2024, [1:17:07] you were aware of the Feeding Our Future fraud and your administration's handling of it, correct? [1:17:13] Yes or no? 2024? Yes. By that time, we had already put people in jail and had extensively [1:17:21] investigated. This committee has testimony that the Minnesota Department of Education briefed your [1:17:26] office about the Feeding Our Futures draft lawsuit and litigation hold on April 28, 2020. That, [1:17:36] let me jog your memory. Is that correct? I can't speak specifically to that. Okay. It was April 2020. [1:17:45] That means Feeding Our Future received a total of over $200 million in federal funds after you and [1:17:51] your administration knew about the fraud concerns. Why didn't you stop sending money to Feeding Our Future [1:17:58] as soon as the fraud concerns were raised? Congressman, as following the program, we notified USGA [1:18:05] under the Trump administration's first term. We notified them, too, because it's a program [1:18:10] administered out of USDA, and they were working to work through the process. Eventually – [1:18:16] Didn't you say you were fearful of political retaliation from the FOF founder? [1:18:21] No, I never said any such thing. I never said any such thing. [1:18:26] Well, that's what we understood. You were afraid of political retaliation. So, given the size and scope of [1:18:34] the Feeding Our Futures fraud, I think you and your administration would have been on high alert [1:18:40] looking for additional fraud in the state. But after seeing the handling of Feeding Our Futures and [1:18:46] its $250 million in fraud, it came as no surprise to learn that even more staggering amounts of fraud, [1:18:54] estimated at up to $9 billion, were uncovered in the Child Care Assistance Program, [1:19:01] the Minnesota Medicaid program and other programs. How could you allow such massive fraud schemes in [1:19:07] your state to get to this point? Congresswoman, we don't see anything by [1:19:13] $9 million. Local press, and everyone reports it, about $300 million. But as I've said, if it's $1, [1:19:18] it's too much. But we started in 2019 putting anti-fraud programs forward. After Feeding Our Future, [1:19:24] we started going through and making sure every program had the integrity in it that it needed. And [1:19:30] that's why you see convictions. That's why you see these programs going forward. But why did it take [1:19:33] nearly seven years for you to get engaged to stop the fraud? Seven years? We started in 2019, [1:19:42] Congresswoman. It may be a surprise. If you arrest someone for stealing a car, other people are still [1:19:47] going to try and steal cars. What we've tried to do is bring program integrity. But I'll go back to this. [1:19:52] We're not going to shut down programs that have things that are going well in it, [1:19:56] and we need to find that proper balance. And I've acknowledged that every year, [1:20:00] we're putting things in place, and Inspector General... Governor Walts, Governor Walts, [1:20:04] you did not do your job. You did not do your job. You did not protect taxpayer dollars. You allowed [1:20:12] massive fraud. You and Mr. Ellison allowed massive fraud to go on in the state of Minnesota. And it is [1:20:20] unfortunate, as somebody said, that you can't be held personally responsible at this stage of the game. [1:20:26] I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Gentle lady yields back. Chair now recognizes Mr. Christomorte from Illinois. [1:20:32] Thank you, Mr. Chair. Governor Walts, you've seen firsthand the brutal excessive force used by ICE [1:20:38] and CBP agents in Minnesota. Unfortunately, we saw this the same tactics employed in Chicago during [1:20:46] Operation Midway Blitz. I want to turn now to ICE and CBP's horrific pattern of abuse. Secretary Noem [1:20:54] went to our cities ostensibly under the guise of arresting, quote, the worst of the worst. [1:20:59] But in Illinois, less than three percent of those arrested during Operation Midway Blitz had criminal [1:21:07] histories. In Minnesota, the vast majority of those detained had never been in trouble with the law, [1:21:12] correct? I believe that's correct, Congressman. There were also more than 170 cases [1:21:18] this year where ICE and CBP detained U.S. citizens. U.S. citizens should never be detained by ICE, [1:21:25] correct? That is correct. I would hope we all could agree on that. Well, I hope so, too. According to [1:21:31] the Chicago Sun-Times, federal agents have pepper sprayed children, including this one-year-old baby [1:21:38] in Chicago. And children should never be pepper sprayed, right? I would hope we could all agree on [1:21:45] that, too. They should not. And according to the Independent, CBP agents dragged a 67-year-old U.S. [1:21:52] citizen out of his car, breaking his ribs and causing internal bleeding. No person should be subjected [1:21:58] to that kind of treatment, right? They should not, Congressman. Attorney General Ellison, let me turn [1:22:03] to another topic. In President Trump's second term, ICE has become America's highest-funded federal law [1:22:09] enforcement agency with a budget of more than $85 billion. If ICE were an army, this budget would [1:22:15] make it the 13th largest army in the world. Let's look at where that money has gone. Last year, DHS spent [1:22:22] $172 million on two private luxury jets for Secretary Noem. I assume you're not aware of a stop payment on [1:22:30] that particular payment, right? No, I'm not, sir. Republican Senator John Kennedy yesterday grilled [1:22:35] Secretary Noem about a $220 million ad campaign featuring her prominently, including on this horse [1:22:43] in front of Mount Rushmore. Secretary Kennedy suggested this was wasteful spending, and I agree. [1:22:50] I assume you'd agree with that as well, right? I do. This gross misuse of funds must end now, [1:22:57] and Secretary Noem must be held accountable, not tomorrow, not next week, now. Chicago was ground zero for [1:23:05] Secretary Noem's overreach when she launched Operation Midway Blitz. Chicago media reported that ICE and [1:23:11] CBP agents had pepper sprayed a one-year-old baby, shot at a pastor, harassed seniors, tased U.S. citizens, [1:23:18] and even killed a person. It's clear that Midway Blitz was never intended to make Chicago safer. [1:23:25] In December, ICE and CBP began Operation Metro Surge in Minnesota. Over 3,000 agents were sent to one [1:23:32] state. There were military-style raids at child care centers, children kept home from school, [1:23:39] adults postponing medical care. In Minneapolis, Renee Good and Alex Preddy, both U.S. citizens, [1:23:45] were fatally shot by federal officers. It's clear that Operation Metro Surge was never intended to make [1:23:51] Minnesota safer. But this is not isolated to just Illinois and Minnesota. Inside detention centers across [1:23:59] the country, the suffering continues. Detainees report physical and sexual abuse, medical neglect, [1:24:05] and pressure to self-deport. On top of that brutality, Kristi Noem is misusing funds to buy herself [1:24:12] private jets and enrich her associates. Kristi Noem is testifying in the House Judiciary Committee today, [1:24:18] but she must come before this committee to explain the rampant corruption and waste within her agency. [1:24:24] DHS is out of control. There is no congressional oversight. I was denied entrance to ICE facilities [1:24:32] twice in Illinois. There is no accountability. Secretary Noem has still not appeared before this committee, [1:24:39] nor has she responded in a substantive manner to more than one dozen letters I've sent her. There are [1:24:45] no consequences. Noem is still the leader of DHS despite regularly breaking the law and abusing her [1:24:51] authority. Secretary Noem must answer for her wrongdoing. For Jaime, my State of the Union guest, [1:24:58] who raises his little sister after his father was coerced into self-deportation. For Chicagoan [1:25:04] Marimar Martinez, who was shot five times. For my constituent Evelyn, an 18-year-old U.S. citizen [1:25:10] who was wrongfully detained by ICE. For Renee Good, Alex Preddy, and Silverio Villegas-Gonzalez, [1:25:18] and all the other victims of ICE and CBP. For the American people. It's for all those reasons that, [1:25:24] Mr. Chairman, pursuant to Clause 2K6 of House Rule 11, I move to subpoena Kristi Noem to testify before [1:25:32] the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. This is for every family impacted by Kristi [1:25:38] Noem's terror campaign. They demand answers and so do I. A motion has been made. The committee will hold [1:25:45] this motion in abeyance until the end of today's hearing. The committee will now proceed with [1:25:50] today's hearing. And I want to remind everyone, I believe Kristi Noem's testifying in front of the [1:25:55] Homeland Security Committee in the House today after testifying in the Senate yesterday. [1:26:01] Chair, before I recognize Mr. Cloud, I believe Mr. Higgins has a UC. [1:26:06] Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record an interview from 2024, December 2024, [1:26:16] the Minnesota Star Tribune with Governor Walz, noting the federal investigation into the early [1:26:24] intensive developmental and behavioral intervention program, the EIDBI program, serving autism patients. [1:26:34] Since its first year of inception in 2017, growing from 1.7 million per year to over 400 million per [1:26:42] year. Unanimous consent. [1:26:45] Yes, sir. [1:26:45] Without objection, so ordered. [1:26:47] Chair now recognizes Mr. Cloud from Texas. [1:26:50] Thank you, Chairman. Thank you for holding this hearing. This hearing was designed to be a hearing [1:26:56] looking into the massive expansion of some of the social programs and the fraud that was contained therein. [1:27:01] But, Reverend Tolgaard, I was struck by part of your opening statement because you invoked Matthew 25, [1:27:07] and that's a scripture we see tossed around a lot up here, but often without context. And so I went and [1:27:13] got my Bible and thought we'd dig into Matthew 25 for a minute. The scripture you invoked was Matthew 25, [1:27:20] 35 through 40. It ends with this. It says, [1:27:22] Then the righteous will answer to him, Lord, when did we see you hungry, feed you, or thirsty, [1:27:28] and give you something to drink? And when did we see you a stranger, and invite you in, or naked, [1:27:35] and clothe you? When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you? And the king will answer to [1:27:39] them, Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did to one of those brothers of mine, even the least [1:27:44] of them, you did this to me. I would ask you, who's the you in that passage? [1:27:49] Thank you for your question. You, meaning all of us, the followers of Christ. [1:27:57] Followers of Christ, right. In Matthew 24, 3, it says, [1:28:01] After Jesus was sitting on the mountain of olives, and the disciples came to him privately, [1:28:05] and then they asked him, that began this whole chapter. Now, what Christ didn't say was to lobby [1:28:11] your government. He said, If you have, you give. That's the general biblical principle here. [1:28:15] 2 Corinthians chapter 9 gives us probably the best scriptural understanding of what charity is. It [1:28:25] says, Each of you should give what you've decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly, under [1:28:29] compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. Would you say that taxes are under compulsion? [1:28:34] Taxes are not my area of expertise, but I. But are they given under compulsion? Do you pay your taxes? [1:28:45] As a US citizen, I pay my taxes. Yes, because what happens if you don't? We don't have the services [1:28:55] that we need to support our. What happens to you personally if you don't pay your taxes? You get in [1:28:59] trouble. You get in trouble. I would say that's under compulsion. So if we're talking about what [1:29:03] charity is, I'm always amazed in DC how much of we get to define our personal worth as a politician or [1:29:09] statesman or whatever you want to call us by, how much of other people's money we give away. [1:29:14] And so there's certainly a place for a social safety net potentially, but the idea that that [1:29:21] Matthew 25 is kind of used as a blanket statement. As a matter of fact, the parable that it gives right [1:29:26] before that scripture that you go into is the parable of the talents where you see someone, a business [1:29:32] owner go away and he leaves three employees in charge and gives them each a bit of investment. And [1:29:38] two of them turn their investment into a profit, the one that turns it not into a profit, he does [1:29:42] nothing with it, just sits on it. What does he call him? You're a pastor, right? Yes, I am, sir. I don't [1:29:54] have... He calls him a wicked and a lazy servant. And so, you know, scripturally speaking, God expects us [1:30:00] to do something with what he's given us. Now, Romans 13 talks about the purpose of government. You know, [1:30:05] scripture is replete with, there's different institutions that each have a different thing. The [1:30:09] primary job of raising our kids and taking care of our families and the institution of the family. [1:30:14] The government has a different one. It says, for the one in the authority is God's servant for your [1:30:17] good. But if you do wrong, be afraid for the rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's [1:30:22] servants to bring agent of wrath on the wrongdoer. Would you say that someone who commits fraud is [1:30:28] doing wrong? We all are against fraud. Right. Is fraud theft? Would you agree that that's theft? [1:30:36] Yes. As the Eighth Commandment says, thou shalt not steal. Would you recommend that someone in your [1:30:43] church go into debt to give an offering in your church? No. Okay. So we have a massive program of [1:30:51] fraud that's being paid for by taxpayers. And it's not really us paying. It's really our kids and our [1:30:55] grandkids that are paying it. And yet we continue to see this massive expansion all under the [1:31:02] taken out of context of what charity is being defined as. You know, it's interesting. I find [1:31:08] it odd that the left continues to bring up Matthew 25 because at the very beginning of that, right [1:31:12] before he goes in that scripture that we talked with, it says, Matthew 25, 32, all the nations will [1:31:18] be gathered to him and he will separate the people from one another as sheep and goats. He will put the [1:31:23] sheep on his right and his goats on the left. And the king will say to those on his right, [1:31:26] come in, you are blessed to the father, take your inheritance to the kingdom. And those on his left, [1:31:30] he will say, depart from me, you cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. [1:31:35] You know, so I would caution those who begin to use Matthew 25 to do so in the proper context, [1:31:41] understanding that we have multiple biblical institutions and they each have a purpose. [1:31:45] The context here is vast. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to submit the entirety of Matthew 25 into the record. [1:31:52] Without objection. Mr. Chairman, I also have a unanimous consent item. [1:31:55] Without objection. Does anyone object to? Thank you. It's a Huffington Post article. [1:31:59] I don't recognize yet. Does anybody object to Mr. Cloud? Without objection, so ordered. Now, [1:32:05] I'll recognize Ms. Randall. Thank you, Mr. Comer. I'd like to enter into the record an article from [1:32:10] the Huffington Post. Yesterday, troops being told Trump's been anointed by Jesus to cause Armageddon in [1:32:16] Iran. Without objection, so ordered. Well, let's recognize Mr. Conner, then I'll get [1:32:23] Mr. Walker. Mr. Conner from California. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Walts, [1:32:31] when I went to Minneapolis and was at Alex Preddy's memorial, I was struck that by the people there, [1:32:41] I expected a lot of folks who were immigrants and I expected or folks who were children of immigrants [1:32:50] who look brown like me. And there at the memorial were fourth and fifth generation Minnesotans, [1:32:59] most of them white Americans talking about how they face tyranny, how when they go to church, [1:33:07] they were being followed by ICE agents. When they go to give a meal to an immigrant, [1:33:14] they were being followed by agents. And I just had so much hope for our country, seeing them there. [1:33:22] And I want to thank Minnesota as a Californian, as someone who grew up in Pennsylvania, as an American, [1:33:28] for their character, for their courage, for what they have modeled in a multiracial democracy. And my [1:33:35] question for you, I mean, having served as a Congressman, a Governor, what is it about Minnesota [1:33:40] that we can learn? What is it that leads to this kind of inclusive feeling about immigrants in our [1:33:47] nation? Well, thank you, Congressman, and thanks for your work on many fronts. Look, I think Reverend [1:33:53] Tolgaard summed it up in getting at the heart of this. It's about the neighborliness and the care. [1:33:58] And left to our own devices, I'm going to make the case, Minnesota, and by the way, [1:34:02] I would remind folks states have to balance their budgets. We're triple-A bond rated, [1:34:06] one of the states that's ranked the highest. We have a surplus, and we also have the highest [1:34:10] rainy day funds, one of the strongest protections. So we understand fiscal responsibility, but we also [1:34:16] understand this caring, this neighborliness. People saw their neighbor. I believe our politics can [1:34:21] change with that idea of what the next door neighbor looks like. Now, I will have to tell you, [1:34:25] Mr. Khanna, I was deeply concerned last year when the Vice President of the United States mentioned [1:34:31] he can understand why people wouldn't want to live by somebody who's not like them, [1:34:36] which seems to go against our entire ethos in Minnesota, whether it was the first wage of [1:34:41] Norwegian and Swedish immigrants that came to Minnesota, German immigrants like my family, [1:34:46] or whether it was Hmong coming after the Vietnam War, or Somali and other East African [1:34:53] immigrants to our country. And I think it's this sense of working together. There's a reason [1:34:57] that we rank at the top in health care. We rank at the top in personal incomes. We rank near the top [1:35:02] in home ownership. We rank near the top in happiness. Because this idea that we're all in it together, [1:35:07] and that we believe everybody should have a chance. So I think it's an ethos, and it gets into our [1:35:12] politics on the secular side. I believe as an elected official that I shouldn't give a sermon, [1:35:19] but I should attempt to live one. And one of our politicians, Paul Wellstone, talked about, [1:35:24] we all do better when we all do better. And that's what we do. And I know that is true to a [1:35:29] certain degree in other states. But I see folks making the claim that, well, you wouldn't have [1:35:35] any fraud if you just cut all these programs, if you just zeroed them out. That is true. If we did not [1:35:40] provide food for our children, no one would steal from that program. But there would also be a lot of [1:35:44] hungry children. And what I'm asking for and acknowledging the accountability, we need to put [1:35:49] program integrity in. So I think it's a neighborliness. I think it's a historical point about caring [1:35:54] for your own. And I think it's a clear understanding that if your neighbor does better, you're going [1:35:59] to do better. Well, thank you, Governor. And obviously fraud matters and budgets matter. [1:36:04] But what really matters right now in this country are values. And I really appreciate your sharing that. [1:36:09] Attorney General Ellison, in the brief time I have, you know, I just want to be clear about [1:36:14] Somali-Americans. Because when I was growing up as an Indian-American, [1:36:18] anytime someone who was of Indian origin did something wrong, every Indian-American was concerned. [1:36:23] You know? And I don't think people understand that. If you aren't a minority, how that makes you feel. [1:36:29] I understand there were 80 or 90 people who were Somali-Americans who were involved in this. But [1:36:34] there are 100,000 Somali-Americans, at least in Minnesota. And statistically, from all the studies [1:36:40] I've seen, it is just factually untrue that Somali-Minnesotans or Somali-Americans commit more [1:36:47] fraud than white Americans or Indian-Americans or other Americans. And could you just speak to this? [1:36:53] Because it is so dangerous. And I don't even think on the other side, people are doing that on purpose. [1:36:57] But if you aren't an immigrant, if you haven't lived that or a child of immigrants, you don't know what [1:37:03] that makes you feel. And can you talk about the Somali experience in Minnesota? [1:37:08] The reality is the Somali community in Minnesota has brought great things to our state. They have [1:37:15] opened businesses. They've gotten professional degrees. They are great neighbors who volunteer [1:37:22] and help their neighbors. They have been a benefit to our state. If you pick out a few people who've [1:37:28] done wrong, sure, you can do that. But I can guarantee you, you can do that in any ethnic group at all [1:37:34] in the state of Minnesota or anywhere in America. Thank you. Thank you both. [1:37:39] All right. Before I recognize Mr. Higgins, I'll recognize Mr. Walkinshaw for unanimous consent. [1:37:43] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And first, I just wanted to make a quick correction. You said [1:37:49] Secretary Noem is before the Homeland Security Committee today. That's not true. I'm a member of [1:37:53] the committee. She was with us a couple months ago, but it's not scheduled. With that, I ask unanimous [1:37:58] consent to enter into the record of September 22, 2025 article from Reuters titled, [1:38:03] Trump aide Homan accepted $50,000 in bribery sting operation, which shows the Trump administration [1:38:11] is willing to cover up blatant corruption of its official. Without objection to order, [1:38:16] chair now recognizes Mr. Higgins from Louisiana. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentlemen, ma'am, [1:38:22] thank you for being here today. Governor, when you, when you took office, this, this fraud [1:38:32] had already begun. Is that, is that an accurate assessment? That's accurate, Mr. Higgins. So, [1:38:41] so what we're trying to get our heads wrapped around here as a nation and, and, and we're doing our best [1:38:50] as a committee, I'm quite certain on both sides to just sort of focus our attention on what needs to be [1:39:00] focused on. You had massive fraud in the state of Minnesota. And when we started looking into [1:39:10] waste, fraud, abuse, and theft across the country, Minnesota surfaced as, as a, a wow moment for, [1:39:21] for the entire country. So naturally, you know, we look as a citizenry to, well, who's in charge there? [1:39:31] And, and my old friend, Governor Walz is in charge. And the truth is, is fraud had begun before you, [1:39:41] before you took office. So it's a reasonable question, Governor, what you're, you're noted in [1:39:49] many interviews, I'm not going to go through them ad nauseum. You were aware of this level of fraud and [1:39:55] investigations. And, and yet, it seems like nothing was done until the Trump administration [1:40:05] re, re-established itself in a second term. And we began broad investigations into waste, fraud, [1:40:14] abuse, and theft, and Minnesota popped. So would you, would you please, I just give you [1:40:22] a minute to respond. Yeah. Why, why didn't you do something sooner? I know some people were put in jail. [1:40:29] I know there were investigations. But there was billions and billions and billions of dollars [1:40:35] being stolen in a, from a pretty concentrated demographic in your community. And this demographic [1:40:43] is a significant political supporter for you and your party, good sir. So I just ask you, [1:40:50] please explain. Yeah. Well, thank you, Mr. Higgins. And I appreciate your [1:40:56] question in good faith on this. First of all, the issue of billions, and I'll keep saying this, [1:41:00] one dollar is too many. That number got thrown around. There's nothing behind it. But I will [1:41:04] acknowledge one dollar is too much. I will also note the character. I would say it's, it's slow. [1:41:09] I would say it's slow, but, but continue. Well, there's nothing to support that. But look, [1:41:14] we will pursue it and assume that that's the case. We will still make the changes we need to make. [1:41:18] The characterization that nothing happened until the Trump administration came in is, [1:41:22] is simply not true. We worked with them in the first administration where USDA didn't take action. [1:41:27] And I think that documented. The fact is starting in 2019, I went to the legislature asking. But you [1:41:33] didn't pause payments, governor. The pausing payments. And the criminal investigation, [1:41:38] which I'm running out of time, I want to jump to. The way America sees this, [1:41:43] Governor Walz, respectfully, sir, is that this money just continued to flow. There was a high awareness [1:41:49] of this waste, fraud, abuse, and theft, like organized crime level theft. And, and it seemed to be [1:41:57] slow rolled. And nobody stopped the money from rolling in. And the money's gone. It's been remitted overseas. [1:42:03] Attorney General Ellison, you stated in your opening statement that you, you, you sort of stated that [1:42:15] your office only has direct jurisdiction over Medicaid fraud. Did you say that in your opening [1:42:20] statement? Okay. Well, you seem to indicate that, that you don't have like criminal authority, but you [1:42:27] do, don't you? Under your own law, you have authority. If the county district attorney asks you to get [1:42:33] involved, or if the governor asks you to get involved, then your office can take lead on any criminal [1:42:40] investigation, specifically, if you have particular, uh, staffing and capabilities within your office, [1:42:48] because it's statewide, to look into organized crime. Is that not correct? Okay. So you have the authority [1:42:57] to lead your state's effort to respond to this massive fraud at the state level from within the [1:43:06] healthcare realm, where government money has been stolen at very, very high levels, unprecedented [1:43:13] levels in your state. Are you leading that effort for the state of Minnesota? You're addressing it. Are [1:43:22] you leading it? Are you leading the effort? We are leading the effort to prosecute Medicaid fraud in [1:43:31] Minnesota? I'm not talking about Medicaid fraud. Don't hide behind that. You have the authority to [1:43:37] prosecute anything criminally that the governor asked you to. And this thing is big. I'm giving [1:43:42] you an opportunity, sir. Are you leading the criminal investigative effort into this massive fraud across [1:43:50] the board in the healthcare spectrum in the state of Minnesota or not? We are following the law. [1:43:57] You are not leading. You're not leading. I'mma say, Mr. Chairman, that the Attorney General of the state [1:44:04] of Minnesota should resign. I yield. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. Uh, before I recognize [1:44:11] Mr. Frost, I want to, uh, Mr. Walkachaw, you were right. She's not testifying in Homeland Security. [1:44:18] Kristi Noem's testifying in judiciary. I knew she was here somewhere today. So that was, you were right. [1:44:22] Uh, I misstated the wrong committee. Chair now recognizes Mr. Frost from Florida. Thank you so much, [1:44:28] Mr. Chair. And I have unanimous consent, um, called Fraud Focus. Why is Trump granting clemency [1:44:34] to convicted fraudsters? Without objection, so ordered. Thank you all for being here. The whole [1:44:38] world has witnessed unprecedented and extreme immigration enforcement tactics this year in Minnesota. [1:44:45] After the murder of Renee Nicole Good and before the murder of Alex Preddy, President Donald Trump [1:44:51] posted on Truth Social that, quote, the day of reckoning and retribution is coming. Governor [1:44:58] Walz, the dictionary defines retribution as punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance for a wrong or [1:45:05] criminal act. Based on what we've seen play out in Minneapolis, what is the problem with the [1:45:11] president of the United States directing agents to carry out retribution? Well, yeah, thank you. And [1:45:19] this is certainly troubling, um, because under the guise of fraud, which we all want to tackle, [1:45:25] uh, we were subject to, as you saw, the largest invasion of a state, um, by the federal government, [1:45:31] um, I don't know, in, in, uh, certainly any of our lifetimes. And that infliction, to me, [1:45:38] we're trying to figure it out. Look, we'll acknowledge and we're fixing it in Minnesota, but I'm telling [1:45:43] you, each of you are going to go back to your state. And if some of you think you want to be [1:45:46] governor, you're going to deal with this. And these folks keep moving. The problem is, Congressman, [1:45:51] this was about retribution. This was about singling out Minnesota. And I think I'm going to just name [1:45:56] it. I think it's singling out because our state works and it provides things for people and we care [1:46:01] and we mind our own business and we respect our neighbors. And this retribution had nothing to do [1:46:07] with getting the worst of the worst. We know that it had nothing to do with stopping fraud. And we were [1:46:11] subject, we being Minnesotans for over 10 weeks. And I want to note just before, and I'll get, [1:46:16] I'll yield back on this, Congressman. I think this is important to note. The gentleman from Illinois [1:46:21] noted that, uh, Midway Blitz, the damage it did to Chicago, there were 500 agents on the ground in [1:46:28] Chicago. Kristi Noem testified yesterday. There's still 650 in Minnesota. It is not over. This is not [1:46:35] ancient news. This is not looking like everybody moved on. Minnesotans are still experiencing this. [1:46:41] It's bad for our communities. It makes our people less safe. It's terrorizing our streets. [1:46:45] Yes. Um, Reverend, what has been happening in your community when individuals try to record federal [1:46:50] agents? Thank you for your question. Uh, individuals who have tried to record federal [1:46:56] agents have been told they cannot. They have, um, been asked for, uh, taking pictures of their license [1:47:04] plates. They have been followed. They have, um, been subject to fear intimidation tactics by ICE agents. [1:47:12] And one of the only reasons that really the world knows about what's going on in, uh, Minnesota is [1:47:19] because of our constitution and the right to be able to record law enforcement and federal agents. [1:47:24] Those videos and the videotapes have been in part the reason why we know what's going on. Trump [1:47:29] administration officials have suggested that observing or identifying federal agents is quote [1:47:34] doxing or quote assault. We know federal agents have followed observers to their homes. [1:47:39] We know, uh, protesters have been pepper sprayed. We know people have been violently detained who [1:47:44] were filming them without bystanders having cameras who know how the murders of Renee Nicole [1:47:50] Good and Alex Freddie by ICE agents would have been, uh, handled by this administration. [1:47:55] They have already tried to lie about these murders, even with footage after Alex Freddie was murdered. [1:48:01] Stephen Miller said he was quote, a domestic terrorist who tried to quote, [1:48:05] assassinate federal law enforcement. Christy Noem said that he committed an act of domestic [1:48:10] terrorism. And the president of the United States said that he was an agitator and perhaps [1:48:14] an insurrectionist. Reverend, the, the last thing I want to get to that I think is really important. [1:48:21] I grew up in the church and I used to wear one of the, what would Jesus do, uh, um, bracelets mainly [1:48:28] because I used to curse a little too much when I was little and then I would like snap myself when I [1:48:32] cursed either way. Nowadays, I think less about what would Jesus do. And I think more about what [1:48:38] would happen to Jesus, um, in this country. And I just wanted to give you a moment to talk about [1:48:44] what you think would happen to refugees, Mary and Joseph, as they come to our border, [1:48:50] would they be separated from their child? I mean, what, what does this look like? [1:48:54] Such a good point, Congressman. And yes, Jesus was himself a refugee as were his parents. And yes, [1:49:02] I fear that they too would have experienced the harm and cruel treatment that Minnesotans have been [1:49:08] experiencing at the hands of our government. What do you say to the people who hide behind the Bible [1:49:15] and wrap themselves in the flag to say that what is going on in our country right now with ICE, [1:49:21] terrorizing our communities, ripping our neighbors, ripping families apart? What would you say to people [1:49:26] like that? I think again, uh, Matthew 25, where are we in this moment? It should be on the side of the [1:49:34] least, the widow, the orphan, the hungry, the homeless. And that, uh, as people of faith and moral conscience, [1:49:41] uh, history will tell what side we stood on, but our actions today will show true love of neighbor. [1:49:48] Thank you. I yield back. [1:49:49] I yield back. Before I recognize Ms. Mace, Mr. Grofman, I believe, has a UC. [1:49:55] Yeah. Hit the button. [1:50:00] I'd like to submit for the record something called Minnesota Financial and Compliance Report [1:50:05] on federally assisted programs for the year ending June 30th, 2024. [1:50:09] Without objection to order. Chair now recognizes Ms. Mace from South Carolina. [1:50:13] Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning, gentlemen. Uh, thank you for being here today. [1:50:17] Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison, you have presided over one of the worst [1:50:21] government fraud scandals in American history. This was money intended to feed hungry children, [1:50:27] help kids with autism, provide food and shelter and healthcare to the needy, and more. [1:50:32] You both allowed billions in these American taxpayer dollars to be pillaged and plundered by Somali pirates. [1:50:40] You knew this was happening. You chose to do nothing about it, and in some cases, you even enabled it. [1:50:45] Attorney General Ellison, you even profited from this fraud by taking campaign donations [1:50:50] from these Somalians after pledging to help quash the investigation into them. I find your behavior [1:50:55] despicable. My questions this morning, uh, my first go to Governor Walz, uh, and I hope you learned some [1:51:02] lessons from your last hearing with me on the oversight committee. Have you learned anything since then? [1:51:07] I did that if I didn't speak up, two of my people would be dead, Congresswoman, and I warned you. [1:51:12] Okay, Ms. uh, Governor Walz, uh, what is a woman? Have you learned that lesson? Do you know what a woman is? [1:51:19] I'm the Governor of Minnesota, Congresswoman. Do you know what a woman is? [1:51:21] I'm not here to be your prop for your obsession. I taught middle school in your obsession. [1:51:25] Okay, so if you can't define what a woman is, you certainly can't define what fraud is. If you can't even [1:51:29] define what a woman is, you can't define fraud. How much money was spent on autism in Minnesota in 2017, [1:51:35] Governor? I don't have those numbers in front of me, Congresswoman. [1:51:39] Okay, did you prepare for this hearing today? Did you do any preparation for this hearing today? [1:51:42] I did. I take Congress seriously. [1:51:44] And you've seen the numbers about autism fraud in Minnesota, so we're going to do some Minnesota [1:51:48] math with you today, okay? Are you ready? How much money was spent on 2017 for autism in Minnesota? [1:51:56] How much? I don't know. I wasn't the Governor. [1:51:58] Okay, did you not just say that you prepared for this hearing today? One million dollars, okay? [1:52:04] A quick Google search or using your AI could tell you one million dollars was spent. [1:52:08] How much money was spent on autism in Minnesota in 2024? [1:52:12] I don't have a number in front of me. [1:52:14] Were you Governor in 2024? [1:52:17] I was, but I'm not the head of the budget test. [1:52:19] Okay, so your excuse before that you didn't know what 2017 autism numbers were because you were not [1:52:24] Governor, and today you can't answer the numbers about 2024 as Governor, and you still said you prepared [1:52:31] for this hearing today. It's unbelievable. $343 million was spent in 2024. What percent increase [1:52:38] is that from $1 million to $343 million? What percentage increase is that? [1:52:42] I'm not here to be your prop. Go ahead and tell me. [1:52:45] Are you Governor of Minnesota or not? [1:52:47] Yes, I am. I'm not a prop for a member of Congress. [1:52:49] Okay, well, when I'm Governor of South Carolina, you can sure as hell bet that I'm going to know the math. [1:52:53] The math is 34,200 percent increase, an increase of 343 times what it was in this time period. [1:53:02] Do you know the number of children in Minnesota? [1:53:04] I know that Minnesota ranked as a top three state for children in the last year. [1:53:08] What is the total population in Minnesota? [1:53:11] 5.7 million. [1:53:12] Okay, what is the total population of children in Minnesota? [1:53:17] I don't have the number in front of me right now. [1:53:18] Are you Governor of Minnesota? [1:53:20] I know 400,000 were cut out of health care last week by the actions you made. [1:53:24] Are you Governor of Minnesota? [1:53:30] I am. [1:53:31] And you don't know the number of children residing in Minnesota? [1:53:33] I don't have the specific number. [1:53:35] It's 5.7 million. [1:53:37] That's your total population. [1:53:37] What is your age? [1:53:38] What is the age? [1:53:39] You're 0 to 5? [1:53:41] 0 to 19? [1:53:42] We have approximately 1.2 million children in Minnesota. [1:53:46] I'm not even Governor of South Carolina. [1:53:48] Our population in South Carolina is 5.5 million. [1:53:50] We have approximately 1.1 million children under the age of 18 in my home state of South Carolina, okay? [1:53:55] As Governor, I expect you to know this information. [1:53:58] Thank God you're not Vice President of the United States. [1:54:01] Do you know approximately how many children in Minnesota are autistic or on the spectrum? [1:54:07] No, I don't. [1:54:08] I don't have that number. [1:54:09] Okay. [1:54:10] Well, if you take the CDC's roughly 1 in 36 kids are on the spectrum, [1:54:14] we're talking about approximately 33,000 kids. [1:54:18] In South Carolina, it's about 31,000 or so. [1:54:20] What is, do you know what this is per child spending wise in the fraud for autistic kids in Minnesota? [1:54:29] Again, I'm not here to be your prop. [1:54:30] Go ahead and tell us. [1:54:31] This isn't, is doing Minnesota math a prop? [1:54:34] This is math. [1:54:35] We're talking about fraud. [1:54:36] Minnesota ranks at the top. [1:54:37] Where does South Carolina rank? [1:54:39] We're talking about money. [1:54:41] Where do South Carolina children rank on healthiness? [1:54:43] These are my questions for you. [1:54:44] It doesn't go the other way around, unless we're debating on the debate stage. [1:54:47] And we're not. [1:54:48] If you're asking questions about being governor, it does. [1:54:50] I'm asking you questions about being governor of Minnesota, [1:54:52] which you can't answer. [1:54:53] This is basic math. [1:54:56] And you can't even answer. [1:54:56] I'm not here to be your prop. [1:54:57] Do you even care about kids in Minnesota? [1:54:59] They rank near the top in every category. [1:55:01] My children are fed. [1:55:02] Do you care about autistic children and getting the services they need in Minnesota? [1:55:05] My children have the best schools. [1:55:06] No, you don't. [1:55:07] Mr. Chairman, I yield back. [1:55:10] Mr. Chairman. [1:55:11] The gentlelady yields back. [1:55:12] Mr. Chairman. [1:55:14] Who's right? [1:55:14] Ms. Boebert? [1:55:15] Yes. [1:55:16] Mr. Chairman. [1:55:16] Oh, Ms. Mace. [1:55:17] May I make my two motions? [1:55:19] Mr. Proceed. [1:55:21] Okay, thank you. [1:55:22] Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee issue a subpoena to the Honorable Pamela Joe Bondi [1:55:27] to appear before the committee for a deposition regarding the department's handling of the [1:55:31] investigation to Jeffrey Epstein and his associates in compliance with the Epstein Finals Transparency [1:55:36] Act. [1:55:36] Mr. A motion has been made. [1:55:39] The committee will hold this motion in advance until the end of today's hearing. [1:55:42] The committee will now proceed with today's hearing. [1:55:44] Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee issue a subpoena to the Office of [1:55:48] Congressional Workplace Rights for the awards and settlements paid pursuant to Section 415 [1:55:53] of the Congressional Accountability Act prior to December 12, 2018, with only redactions [1:55:58] allowable for the personally identified information of victims, alleged victims, and witnesses. [1:56:04] Thank you, ma'am. [1:56:05] The motion has been made. [1:56:07] The committee will hold this motion in advance until the end of today's hearing. [1:56:11] Mr. Chairman, I seek unanimous consent. [1:56:13] Mr. Chairman, can I have one thing before? [1:56:14] Mr. Chair recognizes the record member. [1:56:16] Thank you. [1:56:17] No, we'd just like to see Mrs. Mace's motions in writing, which would be great. [1:56:23] Now, before I recognize Ms. Lee, do you have Ms. Randall? [1:56:28] Thank you, Mr. Chair. [1:56:29] I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record of December 11, 2025, article from The Guardian, [1:56:35] titled, Somalis are the Scapegoat Fear Rises as Trump Targets Minneapolis Community, [1:56:40] which describes the Trump administration's xenophobic attacks. [1:56:42] Thank you. [1:56:43] That objection's ordered. [1:56:44] The chair recognizes Ms. Lee from Pennsylvania. [1:56:47] Thank you, Mr. Chair. [1:56:48] For the past few months, Democrats on this committee and in the Senate have been holding [1:56:53] hearings on the unconstitutional actions of the Trump administration. [1:56:57] So we've heard from, in that time, whistleblowers, industry experts, and survivors of abuses of federal [1:57:04] agents. [1:57:05] They spoke about warrantless searches that they have been subjected to, including federal agents bursting [1:57:11] into their homes with guns. [1:57:13] They spoke about being shot at and dragged out of their cars, and then, you know, being made to look [1:57:19] like they were actually the perpetrators. [1:57:22] They spoke about federal agents' use of masks in unmarked vehicles and the efforts of these agents [1:57:28] to hide their identity, to escape any sort of accountability. [1:57:30] And we heard from the brother of Renee Goode, who was murdered by ICE agents in Minneapolis. [1:57:38] That is what oversight looks like. [1:57:41] Not two hearings on fraud in one single state, which is not even the worst instance of fraud [1:57:49] out there, though we all here agree that we should target fraud. [1:57:54] Republicans have dragged Governor Walz in, again, to demonize and target his state because he is a [1:57:59] Democratic governor and he is implementing Democratic policies. [1:58:02] Republicans took a legitimate investigation and, as per usual, has made it a circus. [1:58:10] Now we have just a random guy lurking around child care centers trying to get into buildings [1:58:16] with children as the fraud vigilante. [1:58:18] The Somali community has been vilified and made to feel unsafe. [1:58:24] And federal benefits are being cut to Minnesota and other Democrat-led states. [1:58:28] Trump and his administration also used this investigation as a justification for an immigration [1:58:34] enforcement push that has created chaos and fueled violence and resulted in the death of American [1:58:39] citizens. [1:58:40] Reverend Tolgaard, as a Minnesotan, do you feel that these oversight hearings and the Trump [1:58:45] administration's fixation on fraud in Minnesota has made anyone safer in your state? [1:58:49] No, they have not. [1:58:50] Republicans have been touting alleged fraud in child care centers and the need to protect children, [1:58:55] but since the immigration enforcement push, have kids been able to be kids? [1:59:00] Have they felt comfortable going to school or playing out in public with each other or with their friends? [1:59:08] They have not been safe. [1:59:09] They have not been able to go to school, to be in playgrounds, to be in libraries and places [1:59:13] you would normally expect to find them. [1:59:15] Are you worried about the long-term impact of being surrounded by violence and uncertainty, [1:59:21] what it could have on these children? [1:59:23] I'm deeply concerned about that and I know that their teachers and their parents are as well. [1:59:27] You were arrested earlier this year while protesting ICE agents and deportations. [1:59:32] Why was it important for you and other clergy members to speak out against Trump's administration's [1:59:38] actions in Minnesota and elsewhere? [1:59:41] Thank you for your question. [1:59:42] I was arrested along with 99 other faith leaders in Minnesota, many of whom could be here today, [1:59:49] and we were compelled to action to stand on the side of the most vulnerable in our communities and those [1:59:58] who have been facing enormous cruelty and unfair actions on the hands of ICE. [2:00:08] And we needed to stand alongside them as have many others in our faith traditions in history. [2:00:14] We stand along with that great cloud of witnesses. [2:00:19] I want to thank you for coming in today and for, of course, having the courage to stand up [2:00:24] to the attacks against your community. [2:00:26] This, as we can all see, was never truly about fraud. [2:00:31] It is a part of a greater effort by Trump and Republicans to gut social services, roll back [2:00:37] civil rights, to villainize and make others out of people who they don't want to have and enjoy the [2:00:45] same civil liberties and rights as others in this nation. [2:00:49] They want to strip away and have been stripping away health care and education, [2:00:54] child care funding that millions of people rely on. [2:00:57] This investigation and these actions have only been used to harm, not to help people. [2:01:02] And rest assured, this will not stop in Minnesota just as it didn't stop in Chicago before that, [2:01:08] or LA before that. [2:01:09] This is a blatant attempt, a blatant authoritarian grab that the Trump administration has been persistent [2:01:16] in. [2:01:17] It will come to all shores if we do not all take a collective stance. [2:01:20] But more than that, urging my colleagues in the Republican caucus or conference to [2:01:27] take up their job and their task as a co-equal branch of government. [2:01:31] We do not serve as the lapdogs, as the cult followers of Donald Trump, of a president. [2:01:36] When there are abuses or overreach, it is supposed to be us that takes a stand. [2:01:41] And I would hope that at some point in the 119th Congress, some Republican with a gavel will do so. [2:01:48] I thank you all for your time, and I yield back. [2:01:50] Gentle lady yields back. [2:01:52] Chair now recognizes Mr. Donalds from Florida. [2:01:54] Thank you, Chairman. [2:01:57] Governor Walz, when did you first receive notice of potential fraud in Minnesota's social services [2:02:02] programs? [2:02:05] Social service programs in general. [2:02:07] We knew that there was issues with the CCAP program as early as 2012. [2:02:11] And my first days in office, we started taking action. [2:02:14] But as Governor, when were you first notified? [2:02:16] Before I took office. [2:02:19] All right. [2:02:20] Governor Walz, former Department of Human Services Commissioner Tony Lurie testified that you [2:02:26] were aware in early 2019 of fraud in two Department of Human Services administrative [2:02:31] administered programs. [2:02:32] Is this statement accurate? [2:02:34] Not that I recall. [2:02:35] I'm not sure what he's speaking about. [2:02:37] You don't remember this meeting or this notification? [2:02:40] No, not specifically. [2:02:41] I don't. [2:02:42] In March of 2019, your Office of Legal Affairs reported five to six million in alleged child [2:02:47] care assistance program fraud. [2:02:49] In April 2019, it was also reported that the Department of Human Services lacked proper [2:02:53] integrity controls to control fraud. [2:02:56] Were you aware of these reports? [2:02:58] Not specific reports, but because of that, my office, we put forward actions to address them [2:03:03] starting in 2019. [2:03:04] Is it correct that your administration was aware of the Feeding Our Future fraud as early [2:03:08] as of May of 2020 based upon regular discussions about program irregularities? [2:03:14] I believe that's correct with the agency, the Department of Education, and then going back to USDA. [2:03:19] I'm going to go back. [2:03:20] Was your office notified of these fraud allegations? [2:03:24] Not me specifically. [2:03:25] That they're handled internally in the administration. [2:03:27] It happens every day. [2:03:28] Who was notified, Governor Walz? [2:03:30] The agencies do their work, the commissioners, and then if someone in my office was notified, [2:03:36] they let me know. [2:03:37] As governor, I make, you know, 50 decisions a day. [2:03:40] I said I did this job for 12 years. [2:03:41] I make more decisions in a day. [2:03:44] Governor Walz. [2:03:44] So someone was maybe notified, but the agencies are the ones that make the action. [2:03:48] May I ask the next question? [2:03:50] We have it under sworn testimony in the oversight committee that your former chief of staff [2:03:55] was notified directly by these various commissioners about the fraud in Minnesota. [2:04:00] That could be correct. [2:04:00] So are you saying that your chief of staff didn't notify you? [2:04:03] I'm saying I don't recall whether he did at that time or not, but we took action. [2:04:06] So I'm assuming when we put our budgets together based on that, we put a package together for [2:04:11] that legislative session. [2:04:11] Let's talk about budgets. [2:04:12] Governor Walz, Feeding Our Future went from $307,000 in 2018 to $199 million in 2021. [2:04:19] Are you aware of this increase in budgetary costs from Feeding Our Future? [2:04:23] Not specifically, but I know it increased during the pandemic. [2:04:26] The housing stabilization services went from $27 million in 2021 to $105 million in 2024. [2:04:32] Are you aware of this increase, Governor Walz? [2:04:34] Not specifically, but I know it increased. [2:04:35] The housing stabilization services went from $24 million in 2019 to $342 million in 2024. [2:04:41] Are you aware of that? [2:04:42] Not specifically, again, but yes, we know the budget's increased. [2:04:45] Integrated community supports went from $4.6 million in 2021 to $170 million in 2024. [2:04:52] Are you aware of that? [2:04:53] Again, not specifically on the numbers, but it's the budget. [2:04:56] Governor Walz, you have to submit a budget to your legislature every single year, [2:05:00] like every governor has to do. [2:05:01] If you're not aware of these increases, what is your office doing? [2:05:03] Everyone is balanced. My budget is about $72 billion. It involves 23 agencies. [2:05:08] Florida's budget is $115 billion, sir, but what were you doing if you're seeing [2:05:11] program increases like this amid allegations of fraud in your state? [2:05:15] Action was being taken on these starting back in 2019. [2:05:18] Can you describe the action that was taken in 2019? [2:05:21] Sure. In 2019, I'll go to the first things that we did on child care assistance. [2:05:25] We lowered the standards on proof of administrative fraud disqualification. [2:05:30] You lowered the standards? [2:05:32] We lowered the standards for proof of administrative fraud. The standards where we had to prove it [2:05:36] were so high it was impossible to try and do it. So we lowered what it took to show that fraud was [2:05:41] happening. [2:05:42] And what did you do with the results of lowering the standards to prove fraud? What did you do? [2:05:46] We put 79 people in prison and... [2:05:48] But Governor Walz, the fraud continued to increase. It increased under your tenure. Do you acknowledge that? [2:05:57] Did the numbers increase? Yes. And I tell you, when you catch people and prosecute them, [2:06:02] it shows up with a fraud increase. I would tell you, Congressman, just because you're not [2:06:05] hearing about fraud doesn't mean it's not happening. [2:06:06] But if it increases... I got 50 seconds, Governor, and I don't want to get into a fight with you, [2:06:10] but let me move quickly to the Lieutenant Governor. Peggy Flanagan is your Lieutenant Governor, [2:06:14] is that correct? That is correct. [2:06:16] Does the Lieutenant Governor go on the ticket with you, or are they elected by themselves on a ballot in [2:06:22] the state of Minnesota? It's on a ticket. It's on a ticket. Peggy Flanagan essentially works for you. [2:06:27] She has an independent officer. She's a constitutional officer. She's on the ticket, [2:06:30] but she is independent as a constitutional officer. You could ask for her resignation at [2:06:33] any time. Is that correct? That's typically how it works with Lieutenant Governors. [2:06:37] Yeah, but she's a constitutional officer. I don't believe that's happened in Minnesota. [2:06:40] Peggy Flanagan is... There are accusations that she was intimidating whistleblowers. [2:06:45] There was a meeting on April 12th of 2024, where she went on stage and publicly denounced [2:06:51] whistleblowers in the state of Minnesota, calling them losers in their mother's basement. [2:06:57] Is this the type of treatment that your administration allows for whistleblowers in Minnesota? [2:07:02] I'm not familiar with that. Are you aware of any [2:07:04] intimidation of whistleblowers in the state of Minnesota? There are 30 whistleblowers who [2:07:08] have given letters to this committee on the record saying that they have witnessed, [2:07:11] they have been a subject to intimidation by your administration because they were trying to [2:07:16] stop the fraud in Minnesota. I encourage them to go to the OLA and the independent sources in [2:07:20] Minnesota that are... The OLA, you're the governor. No, the OLA is the independent... But sir, [2:07:24] you're the governor. Why didn't you take responsibility for what's going on in your [2:07:27] state? We do take responsibility. None of those people, I'm telling you, I have no knowledge... [2:07:30] But you lost billions of dollars of American taxpayer money in the process, Governor Walz. [2:07:35] We prosecuted these people, Congressman. I think Florida has fraud. [2:07:39] I would argue that the prosecutions have largely come from the federal offices as opposed to the [2:07:44] state offices. That's not how this works. You know that we refer... [2:07:45] What do you mean that's not how it works? That's exactly how it works. [2:07:47] They're partners. They partner together with our BCA. [2:07:50] Is the attorney general allowed to investigate fraud and prosecute fraud in the state of Minnesota [2:07:54] without the Department of Justice federally? Are you allowed to do that, Attorney General Ellison? [2:07:59] Yes, and we do prosecute. Yes, and we do prosecute Medicaid fraud all the time. We've prosecuted over [2:08:05] 300 people. Apparently, apparently not enough because Minnesota's right with it. I yield back. [2:08:11] Gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes Ms. Randall from Washington State. [2:08:16] Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Governor Walz, Attorney General Ellison, and Reverend Tolgaard [2:08:22] for being here to shed light on the impacts of the Trump administration's harmful actions in [2:08:27] Minnesota and, frankly, to be pulled into some really ridiculous question lines. [2:08:34] The escalation in attacks from this administration on social services programs in democratically-led [2:08:39] states like Minnesota, on the heels of the big ugly laws, billions of dollars of Medicaid [2:08:45] cuts last summer is clearly devastating our communities. Do I believe Congress has a [2:08:52] responsibility to reduce opportunities for misuse and fraud where we have seen evidence that it exists? [2:08:58] Sure. That's why I introduced the Federal Program Integrity and Fraud Prevention Act, [2:09:02] a bipartisan bill that would prevent individuals who have been convicted of fraud from applying for [2:09:07] federal contracts. Mr. Chairman, if you are serious about addressing fraud, I'd love to see this [2:09:13] committee hold a hearing on my bill, which was developed based on feedback from nonpartisan [2:09:17] inspectors general, whose entire job is overseeing the appropriate administration of government [2:09:24] programs. And let me remind my friends on the other side about Mississippi, a state with Republican [2:09:31] leadership where over $77 million in temporary assistance for needy families funds were misused. [2:09:38] One of the perpetrators of that fraud, former NFL quarterback, Brett Farr, who received $1.1 [2:09:45] million from the government for speeches he never made. Congressional Republicans' response was to [2:09:52] invite Farr to come testify before the Ways and Means Committee about how we should strengthen oversight [2:09:57] of federal welfare programs, because I'm sure he had some good advice about that. Meanwhile, my Republican [2:10:06] colleagues are villainizing entire minority populations because of the actions of a few. [2:10:12] We have a word for that. I also have a lot of Republican colleagues here who talk about being [2:10:18] fiscally responsible and reining in federal spending. Again, I also believe we should be fiscally [2:10:24] responsible. But to me, fiscal responsible governing means that we invest in transformative universal [2:10:32] health care that saves us money in the long term. Child care policies that give the budget back seven [2:10:40] dollars on the dollar spent in long term costs for the children who benefit. Policies that will [2:10:48] actually save our country money in the long run and contribute to strong society and strong economy. [2:10:56] Not slashing social services, not defunding hospitals, not eliminating child care programs. [2:11:02] Governor Walz, why do you think the Trump administration is so obsessed with fraud in [2:11:09] Minnesota when its own agencies have found other states with even worse problems? [2:11:17] Well, it's a question we're all asking, Congresswoman, and I'd like to say thank you for this. I just want [2:11:22] to make sure I go on record, Chairman Comer, in condemning the slurs towards my Somali community that the [2:11:28] gentlewoman from South Carolina made. Thank you. Look, Congress, I don't know. I think it's been pretty clear [2:11:34] the president does not like me personally. I think he continues to tell lies about our electoral system [2:11:40] claiming that he's won all three times when he lost all three times. I think he has people around him [2:11:46] who were trying to find quotas around immigration and they saw a perfect storm, if you will, that included [2:11:54] some Somali folks and a whole lot, you know, if we're going to condemn folks, there's no Somali folks in the [2:11:59] Epstein files, things like that, we know, but I don't know. It's an obsession, and I come back to it [2:12:06] again. I think it's because we are so ideologically opposed to making children go hungry, people go [2:12:12] unhoused. We invest in education, we invest in research, and we believe everybody has a place, [2:12:20] and so I think it's just personal about how we do business. Thank you so much. I could not agree more. [2:12:26] There are also reports that as many as 50 prosecutors in the U.S. Attorney's Office for [2:12:31] Minnesota have quit in the last 12 months. They used to have 70 prosecutors, now some reports say [2:12:37] they have as few as 17. Many of those who left include the very same prosecutors who were prosecuting [2:12:43] defeating our futures fraudsters. How has this flight impacted your efforts to fight fraud in Minnesota? [2:12:52] Well, it's made it very difficult, and I think for all of my friends on the Republican side, [2:12:57] we welcomed the Republican folks, the attorneys over at the U.S. Attorney's Office, who were good at [2:13:04] helping us as partners. We turned this over to them, they prosecuted, they put people in jail. They're not [2:13:08] there now. There's nobody doing this, and I will remind this committee, the U.S. Attorney was in front of a [2:13:14] federal judge yesterday being threatened with jail because of what's going on in that office, and from my [2:13:19] perspective, who's prosecuting trafficking, drugs, murder, and fraud? And so we want them. If you [2:13:26] could do anything, Chairman, call the President and tell him to put some U.S. attorneys over there [2:13:30] to prosecute fraud. I'll sign on with you. Thank you, Governor. Thank you, Mr. Trump. [2:13:35] Chairman, I recognize it's Chairman Birchett from Tennessee. Say that with disrespect in your voice, [2:13:44] Mr. Chairman. Governor, you mentioned that President Trump lost all three times. I believe [2:13:50] that's an error, and that's a conspiracy theorist. I believe you spoke in error there. [2:13:59] No, he lost Minnesota all three times. Okay. Okay. I'm glad you corrected that. [2:14:03] He doesn't agree with that, though, Jerry. I don't care. We're good. We're good. [2:14:06] Have you ever used taxpayer funds directly or indirectly to take action against individuals [2:14:11] suspected of disclosing potential wrongdoing within a government entity? I have not. [2:14:16] Well, almost 30 whistleblowers accuse you and your administration of retaliation. Would you [2:14:21] say that's a conspiracy then? I can't speak to what they said. I can tell you it didn't happen. [2:14:26] Okay. Are you aware of reports alleging state officials have engaged in retaliation against [2:14:32] whistleblowers? No, I'm not. Not specifically, no. You're not aware of that? When 30 have come forward? [2:14:39] I am not. I believe these are internet. We have options, the OLA. We have independent folks that [2:14:46] they can come to, and I encourage them. It's against the law in Minnesota. I have executive orders. [2:14:49] It's against the law here, but it doesn't stop it. What actions have you taken to protect [2:14:54] whistleblowers in your state, sir? And has anyone faced consequences for retaliation? If so, who? [2:15:00] Well, in Minnesota, we have nonpartisan office legislative auditor. We have zero tolerance. [2:15:07] The Minnesota Whistleblower Protection Act prohibits retaliation. I signed executive order in 2025, [2:15:14] added protections. The law explains and clarifies protections around what reports are protected and who [2:15:19] can report issues. They're strong. When I was here, I was an advocate for the IGs, and I think that's [2:15:26] well known in my 12 years here that we need them. Okay. Well, a whistleblower told our office [2:15:33] that her supervisor at the Minnesota Department of Health and Human Services threatened to make her job [2:15:37] difficult, and the supervisor that did that later received a promotion. Would that surprise you, [2:15:44] and can you confirm if this account is accurate? No, I can't confirm it, and I don't make HR decisions, [2:15:50] but when I'm being very clear about this, there's a zero tolerance for whistleblower retaliation in [2:15:56] Minnesota. Can you how can any agency combat fraud when retaliation goes unchecked? It makes it more [2:16:06] difficult. That's why we don't allow it. Do you think that any of the fraudsters sent stolen funds to [2:16:12] Somali terrorist groups? Pardon me? Do you think that any of the Somali folks that received funds sent [2:16:22] any of that money to any of the stolen funds to Somali terrorist groups? There's been reports done [2:16:29] and investigations done on this, and I don't believe there's any proof to support that. Okay. [2:16:33] Mr. Attorney General, do you recall a December 21, 2021 meeting with individuals connected to Feeding [2:16:40] our future during which you stated there will be cases that you know? I want you to feel free to [2:16:45] call me directly, and then I call up and like, what's the problem? And let me tell you, just letting [2:16:53] the inquiry from AG is sometimes enough to make people knock it off. Congressman, yeah, I was at a meeting [2:17:00] like that. Let me just say that I've reported on this numerous times. I've been in front of a committee in [2:17:06] the Senate. I've been, I'm here today. I was in front of a state house committee. I was, I, this is a widely [2:17:14] discussed matter, and I've been fully transparent. Well, let me just be clear. These people were fraudsters, [2:17:21] as everyone here agrees. They were liars. They lied to me. They lied to courts. They lied to everyone. And [2:17:28] I would like you to know that I do meet with community meetings all the time. I mean, it's a regular part of [2:17:34] my job. Nothing unusual about me meeting with people. Nothing unusual about me telling people, [2:17:40] if you've got a problem, you know, my office will try to help you. But these people were liars and [2:17:44] fraudsters. The main thing is, I'd like you to know, is that we're down so many federal prosecutors [2:17:50] that it has put our ability to put, hold these people accountable definitely at a law. Yes, sirs. [2:17:56] Eight hour days do get long. In September of 2022, you issued a press release titled for two years. [2:18:02] Attorney General Ellison's office has held Feeding Our Future Accountable. Does that sound familiar? [2:18:08] Thank you for the question, Congressman. Let me tell you, the Department of Education. [2:18:12] Does it sound familiar or not, sir? It certainly does. Okay. And the Department of Education. [2:18:17] How much did you receive in campaign contributions from individuals charged in the Feeding Our Future [2:18:21] case? Every campaign donation I got was returned to all authorities. Okay. Everybody knows about the [2:18:28] $250 million in fraud for Feeding Our Future case, which was prosecuted by the U.S. Attorney's Office [2:18:34] in Minnesota. But there were just two other large site sponsors that you settled with instead of [2:18:39] prosecuting them. Why did you not prosecute Partners in Quality Care or the Gargar Family Services? [2:18:45] Because my office doesn't have jurisdiction to prosecute in those cases. Well, you allowed them to dissolve, [2:18:52] but no one was prosecuted. And PIQC is accused of $300 million in fraud as significant assets, [2:19:01] yet no charges and no attempts to recover taxpayer money. I'll remind y'all, $19 billion. I was a state [2:19:08] legislator and I can remember when our state budget was $19 billion. This is money that's been stolen [2:19:14] and it will not be recovered. And you all are to blame. And every dadgum one of you all ought to [2:19:19] step down. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The gentleman yields back. Before I recognize Mr. Bell, [2:19:24] Mr. Donald, do you have a UC? Yeah, I ask unanimous consent to enter into [2:19:28] the record an op-ed from the Minnesota Star Tribune, authored by Jim Nobles, the former Minnesota [2:19:34] Legislative Auditor, dated December 29th, 2025. Without objection, she ordered. [2:19:40] Chair recognizes Mr. Bell from St. Louis. Thank you, Chair, [2:19:43] Ranking Member, and our witnesses for being here today. Our Republican colleagues have called [2:19:49] this hearing today once again to divert the public's attention from the dangerous threats [2:19:55] that they themselves have created for the American people. They have chosen to turn a blind eye to the [2:20:01] escalating public safety crisis in Minneapolis, Minnesota, fueled by the deployment of ICE agents [2:20:08] under the direction of President Trump. On December 1st, 2025, this administration launched [2:20:14] Operation Metro Surge under the false pretense of promoting public safety in Minneapolis. [2:20:22] Since then, we have witnessed several deaths, including the brutal killings of Renee Good on January [2:20:29] 7th, 2026, and Alex Preddy only a few short weeks later on January 24th. News reports state that in 2026 alone, [2:20:39] there have already been eight additional deaths at the hands of federal agents. We are now living in one [2:20:45] of the deadliest periods on record with more deaths carried out by ICE agents in recent years than at any [2:20:52] time since 2004. Under this administration's direction, masked agents have inflicted trauma that will remain in [2:21:00] these communities and neighborhoods. There's a lack of accountability and justice. Survivor stories have [2:21:07] been suppressed, false narratives have been told, and federal officials have refused to cooperate, [2:21:13] even going so far as to block state investigators from accessing evidence. [2:21:20] A.G. Ellison, as the chief legal officer for the state of Minnesota, what level of cooperation would you [2:21:27] expect from the federal government during an investigation of this magnitude? [2:21:32] Congressman, I would expect the kind of cooperation that we're used to experiencing. I mean, [2:21:39] in all of the time that I've even been a lawyer, which is now 36 years, state-federal cooperation was [2:21:46] exactly how we did business all the time. We are very proud and we love working with our FBI agents, [2:21:53] DEA agents, ATF agents. It's a regular thing. This is what's strange and unusual. [2:22:00] And has the lack of cooperation and unclear communication from the federal agencies [2:22:05] undermined the investigations into the death of Renee Good and Alex Preddy? [2:22:10] It certainly has. We have been denied access to critical evidence in this case that we would [2:22:17] need to evaluate this matter based on use of force analysis. [2:22:21] Which is befuddling to me because as a former prosecutor, I've led serious and thorough [2:22:26] investigations in pursuit of justice. I can say that what we have seen by DHS, DOJ, and the FBI [2:22:34] is the complete opposite of a detailed and thorough investigation into the wrongdoing of ICE officials. [2:22:41] And let us be clear, despite what President Trump would have the public believe, [2:22:46] those agents remain on the streets of Minnesota. These actions are not isolated incidents. We've [2:22:52] seen similar events taking place across the nation in Illinois, North Carolina, California, [2:22:58] to name a few. We have heard directly from survivors about the cruelty and mistreatment they endured by ICE [2:23:05] agents. And we have seen the individuals appointed under President Trump to head these operations, evade [2:23:11] justice and not be held accountable for their actions. We can't stand by and allow this to continue. [2:23:18] Those responsible for these actions must be held accountable and survivors and their families [2:23:24] deserve answers and justice. Which is why, Mr. Chair, I move that pursuant to Clause 2, [2:23:31] subsection K-6 of House Rule 11, the committee shall subpoena Greg Bovino to testify before the House [2:23:39] Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. [2:23:41] A motion has been made. The committee will hold this motion in advance until the end of today's hearing. [2:23:47] The committee will now proceed with today's hearing. [2:23:49] I yield the remainder of my time to the ranking member. [2:23:52] I'd like just to provide just a few of that time to the Reverend who wanted to make some additional [2:24:01] comments about something that was said earlier in the hearing. You have 30 seconds. [2:24:06] Thank you. Just following up on Matthew 25, I am so proud of the countless ways that Minnesotans, [2:24:13] Christians, and people of other faiths and moral conscience have stepped forward to show love of [2:24:19] neighbor and to come alongside those who are suffering most in this time. There is no greater [2:24:24] example of living out the teachings of Christ and caring for the least among us than what we've [2:24:29] seen in Minnesota these past few months. Thank you. I yield back. [2:24:33] The gentleman yields back. Before I recognize Mr. Perry, I have a unanimous consent to [2:24:39] enter into the record an article from Alpha News where U.S. Attorney Rosen stated, and I quote, [2:24:47] we have more than adequate staffing to carry out the fraud. We have been reinforced in dramatic [2:24:51] numbers by the Department of Justice and by other departments of the federal government. [2:24:56] He also said fraud investigations are increasing in pace. Fraud prosecutions, [2:25:01] you will see, are going to be dramatically increasing in pace. According to Rosen, [2:25:05] if you're committing fraud in the state of Minnesota, it's really not a good time to be doing so. [2:25:09] Just wanted to enter that article into the record without objection, so ordered. [2:25:13] Chair now recognizes Mr. Perry from Pennsylvania. [2:25:16] Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Governor, good to see you again. You're an army guy. I'm an army guy. What's [2:25:21] as governor one of your primary responsibilities? Keep your citizens safe, right? I think we could [2:25:27] probably agree on that. We might not agree on much, but we could probably agree on that. And I [2:25:31] heard you talk earlier about working with federal partners. There's a lot of been a lot been discussed [2:25:37] here about fraud of various kinds. But I want to talk about something that seems to me [2:25:42] quite honestly a dereliction of duty or certainly a huge lapse in judgment. And you were governor [2:25:50] in October of 2023, right? I just want to make sure we're on the same page here. And you signed [2:25:56] the Minnesota Drivers Licenses for All Act. Is that correct? That's correct. That's correct, right? [2:26:04] So now look, I'm not going to hold you to knowing every single thing in these laws. There's a lot of [2:26:10] paragraphs and wording and so on and so forth. But under your law that you signed, it prohibits [2:26:17] the disclosure of information contained in the license or identification card applications for [2:26:23] enforcing Title 8 of the United States Code. Just to make sure, are you familiar with what Title 8 deals [2:26:30] with? I'm not specifically. Okay, so it deals with immigration, nationality, and aliens. Particularly, [2:26:36] the law that you signed eliminates the requirement for Social Security numbers or proof of lawful [2:26:43] presence. And furthermore, it's a violation under Section 14.4 of your code for anybody to research [2:26:54] that. As a matter of fact, immigration status is classified as private under Section 13.18. So [2:27:03] literally, the federal government, your partner, as you said, we work with our federal partners, [2:27:10] can't use that driver's license information regarding people that are here illegally. Now, [2:27:16] I don't understand the connection between the driver's license and the immigration piece, I guess. [2:27:20] Well, they can't because well, let me just let me make the connection for you. According to the [2:27:25] Secretary of Transportation, one third of Minnesota's non domiciled commercial driver's licenses were [2:27:32] issued illegally. Were issued illegally. Do you have a video ready to play for me? Can you play it now? [2:27:39] This is what happens, Mr. Governor. This is what happens when you issue driver's licenses to people [2:27:48] illegally. He is on the northbound lanes of 61 going the wrong way. You can see I'm going southbound on 61. [2:27:58] He's in the northbound lanes on Highway 61. He's crossing over there. And thank God, [2:28:07] I don't know how much that thing weighs 60, 80,000 pounds, 60 miles an hour. You can cut the video. [2:28:14] He was licensed in your state under a law that you signed that precludes federal officials, your federal [2:28:21] partners, as you call them, from determining whether they're here illegally. That guy that was driving that [2:28:28] truck couldn't pass the test. He didn't pass the test out on the road. There's another video. I'm not [2:28:35] going to play it. But there's another video of a guy here illegally turning a truck like that around [2:28:40] in the middle of a highway where people lost their lives because they were decapitated when they went [2:28:45] underneath it. That's what happened. So my question for you is this should be easy. What are you going [2:28:50] to do to rectify the law that you signed that allows people here illegally to get a CDL? That tape was [2:28:56] in Missouri, not in your state. Look, if you don't want to protect the people in your state, I guess [2:29:01] that's your business and the business of your voters. But that driver was driving in Missouri. [2:29:07] And if he'd have hit a bunch of people, quite honestly, to me, you could have been held liable. [2:29:13] Well, Congressman, first of all, Minnesota ranks in the top three safest states by highway data from [2:29:18] your own department. Highway data. The data from the Department of Transportation for highway safety. [2:29:23] We have the third. We want everybody on our roads to be licensed. So are you saying are you saying [2:29:28] based on that that you're OK? I'm not OK with that. I'm not OK with you or I speeding. I'm not [2:29:33] OK with DUI. But you signed this law that allows for that. You signed it and you're going to do [2:29:39] nothing about it. I can't speak to the specific on the CDL. What I can tell you is I can't. I just [2:29:44] I've referenced your law. It says House of Representatives, state of Minnesota. And I know [2:29:50] there's a lot of words here. I don't know the specific case. I just know our roads are safer. [2:29:53] Exactly the sections that allow for this to happen and preclude federal enforcement [2:30:00] regarding immigration and the illegality of people receiving CDLs under your state's provisions. [2:30:05] Driver safety and immigration are two separate things. Anybody, had that been a citizen or not, [2:30:09] it's still tragic. It's wrong. We shouldn't do it. What I'm telling you is in Minnesota, [2:30:13] we have the third safest roads in the country. So you're good. So you're good with this practice? [2:30:17] I'm not good with that. Well, what are you good with? Because that's what's happening [2:30:21] under your law. Well, I can't speak to the specific on if it's an outlier. We give license to people [2:30:26] who eventually people get DUIs after we issue. That happened last month. This is March. That [2:30:32] happened a week and a half ago. Yeah, I don't know. Are you familiar? No, it's wrong. And look, [2:30:37] but you're not going to do anything. Sure, we're going to do. What are you going to do? [2:30:40] Traffic laws. What are we going to do? Was this person arrested? [2:30:42] I sure hope so. That's good. And what he, but he was licensed in your state under your law that you [2:30:48] signed about a year and a half ago. Every day we give licenses and people speed. So we ticket them [2:30:55] and try and stop that. What I'm telling you is I don't understand the connection between [2:30:59] He's here illegally. He can't read and he got a license under your provisions and he's driving [2:31:04] all across the country, imperiling everybody else. That's the connection. I can't speak. [2:31:09] Thank you. The data shows Minnesota is one of the safest driving states in the country. [2:31:13] I don't know what to tell you. I don't know. Thank you, Mr. Perry. Thank you. [2:31:19] Chair, now recognize Mr. Min from California. I'm first, sir. Oh, you're next. Okay. [2:31:26] Is that okay, sir? I didn't have it on the list, but. Oh, I showed up. I will yield to the [2:31:30] right ranking member. You sure? Okay. I was tardy. I thank you, Mr. Min. I thank you, [2:31:39] Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon and thank you witnesses for coming today. So what I've heard [2:31:45] so far is feeding our future $250 million stolen, 50 convictions secured. The prosecution was working. [2:31:55] Then the administration froze $10 billion in child care across five states. No evidence, [2:32:01] no legal authority, no statutory process. A federal court ruled it unlawful and unconstitutional within [2:32:08] 48 hours. Thank you, Attorney General Ellison and Attorney General Bonta for that work. [2:32:14] Then the lead prosecutor resigned. His team followed. Those prosecutions are now at risk. So [2:32:22] the record shows they froze 10 billion illegally, lost in court immediately and dismantled the [2:32:30] prosecution, actually putting frosters in prison. Every single action made the fraud worse. [2:32:39] This isn't incompetence because incompetence is random. This was targeted, legally defective [2:32:46] and prosecutorily catastrophic. If this committee was serious about fraud, the first witness [2:32:54] should have been the HHS official who sent the letter, not the Attorney General who beat them [2:33:01] in court. Attorney General Ellison, what are we doing here? And I want actually to ask you, [2:33:06] what is your office doing systemically to prosecute fraud in the state? [2:33:13] Well, thank you for the question, Congresswoman. As I said, prosecuting Medicaid fraud is a very [2:33:20] important work that we do. We do it every single day. We've secured millions of dollars for people. We've [2:33:26] gotten millions in restitution. We've convicted people and held them accountable. We also represent [2:33:33] state agencies and help those agencies support the work that they do. The fact of the matter is, is that [2:33:41] you know, this work we do to stop fraud is helping to protect public money. We're proud of it. And we also [2:33:51] support federal prosecutions by providing them with information that they need to prosecute fraud, [2:33:57] which we have done and will, of course, continue to do. So, sir, so tell me this. How has the ability [2:34:02] to prosecute that fraud and social services programs been affected by this administration? Well, it has been [2:34:08] devastated by the actions of this administration. This administration has cut the number of [2:34:12] prosecutors, but also has redirected FBI agents to do immigration as opposed to... Why have they cut [2:34:18] those prosecutors? Those prosecutors actually, I said cut, but they actually resigned as a matter of [2:34:24] conscience because the administration was trying to force them to investigate the widow of Renee Good. [2:34:30] Say more. So many of them said that they weren't, they couldn't work under those circumstances [2:34:35] because it violated their ethical, their personal ethical requirements. So they quit. So they left [2:34:42] their jobs that they had sworn to do in mass because they were conflicted with conscience. That's right. [2:34:49] And may I add, Congresswoman, that we have had motions for, to dismiss for the violation of a, of a [2:34:57] defendant's right to a speedy trial granted by judges in Minnesota because there's not enough federal [2:35:05] prosecutors. And, you know, one of those was a person who was a violent offender who was being prosecuted [2:35:11] for a felon in possession of a firearm. Case was dismissed because there are not enough people to [2:35:17] perform the functions of prosecuting people who commit crimes. So this is having a devastating effect [2:35:23] on our state. And in addition to all that, Congresswoman... Well, so let me get this straight. [2:35:27] All right. Help me understand. 50 convictions secured. Additional prosecutions in limbo. [2:35:37] The administration's prosecutors have quit because the staging of how this all works, [2:35:44] they believe, and they have said on record, is immoral. Why are we here? [2:35:48] I've been wondering that, um, madam... Because aren't you saying that you would love for the, [2:35:55] the prosecutions that are dangling in the wind, you would love for those folks to face justice? [2:36:00] Absolutely. Stealing public money... So the ask would be then to the administration for what? [2:36:06] With this committee here, I think your, your colleague, or the governor of your great state, [2:36:12] said you want more federal prosecutors on this case. Yes, but it also, we should go back to the [2:36:18] Hippocratic oath of do no harm. I mean, it would, it would be good to just stop doing things that [2:36:24] shouldn't be done, uh, such as demanding that prosecutors investigate Renee Good's widow. [2:36:30] Right. That's right. Well, I want to thank you all so much for coming today. And, um, to the reverend, [2:36:36] I was able to come to your state briefly. And like one of my colleagues said, I did go by the site of [2:36:42] Ms. Good's death. And it was heartening to see the solidarity in your community. There are about 150 [2:36:50] Christians reciting the Lord's Prayer over and over and over. You all are showing us what good [2:36:56] really means. Thank you so much for being here today. And I'll yield back. [2:37:00] Gentle lady yields back. Chair organizer Mr. Crane from Arizona. [2:37:03] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, thank you to our guests for coming today. Um, I want to start with you, [2:37:10] Attorney General Ellison. In an interview with CNN host Laura Coates, she asked you about whether or not [2:37:18] you did enough to stop the fraud. Do you remember that interview, Attorney General? [2:37:24] Uh, Congressman, I, I gotta admit that I don't remember the details. [2:37:27] Can we play the video, please? So, Mr. to refresh Mr. Ellison's memory. [2:37:32] Are we ready to? It may take us a second on that. I'm sorry. [2:37:38] Okay. I'll, I'll just tell you what you said when she asked you if you'd done enough to stop the fraud. [2:37:44] And she mentioned the $9 billion. Um, you said, of course we have done enough. [2:37:49] We're doing more every single day. This is a political matter. [2:37:52] This is not a serious thing. Do you remember saying that, Attorney General Ellison? [2:37:56] I remember the conversation. What I remember was that I was lamenting the political, [2:38:03] politicized nature of this very serious problem. You said it's not a serious thing. So now you're [2:38:10] saying fraud is a serious thing. Okay. Well, that's not, that's not what you said on CNN, [2:38:15] Mr. Ellison. You said this is a political matter and this is a quote. This is not a serious thing. [2:38:20] So I notice you're changing your tune now that you're before the House Oversight Committee. [2:38:24] I would have to just. Do you understand, Mr. Attorney General, [2:38:28] why this adds gasoline to the fire when Americans are so frustrated with this government for their [2:38:34] out of control spending and the amount of money they pay in taxes and then to see $9 billion of it, [2:38:42] an estimate of $9 billion getting stolen of their taxpayer dollars and being used to fund cars and [2:38:48] vacations and homes and even fund terrorism? Do you understand how statements like that throw [2:38:53] gasoline on the fire, sir? Congressman, I believe that you are mischaracterizing what I said. [2:39:00] No, I actually read you the quote. I'm not mischaracterizing at all. [2:39:02] That video is ready if you still want it. It's up. It's up to you. [2:39:05] Yeah, let's play it, please. [2:39:06] This is that there has been hundreds of millions of dollars, but now there are some estimates that [2:39:18] there could be $9 billion or more. Noam was just suggesting they took hundreds of people off the [2:39:23] street who were involved in fraud. Are you confident your office has done enough? [2:39:30] Of course we've done enough, and we're doing more every single day. This is a political matter. [2:39:36] This is not a serious thing. [2:39:39] So how are you going to sit here, Attorney General, saying I'm mischaracterizing? I read word for word [2:39:45] your quote. I then showed it to the entire dais, the entire audience here today. How are you going [2:39:49] to sit here and say that I mischaracterized you? Congressman, I believe you mischaracterized me [2:39:55] because clearly what I was referring to by not serious is that the serious issue of fraud is being [2:40:04] politicized and converted into a political weapon. That is not a serious matter in my view. That is [2:40:10] something that I believe all of us should take seriously, but we're not taking seriously [2:40:16] enough. So, sir, I would say very clearly fraud is an odious, horrible, malignant thing, [2:40:23] and that's why it should not be turned into a political weapon, but we should come together on [2:40:28] a bipartisan basis to stop it. The reason it's becoming political, [2:40:30] sir, is because of statements like that when confronted with the $9 billion of fraud in your state [2:40:37] as the top cop in your state that you're clearly not doing enough to address. I want to move on. [2:40:43] Reverend Tolegaard, you said in your opening statement that today's hearing is about fraud [2:40:47] in Minnesota, quote, unquote, which is serving as a pretext for the terror the federal government has [2:40:53] brought to the people of Minnesota. This fraud has been used as a rationale for deploying 3,000 [2:40:58] federal immigrant enforcement agents into our state. Did you say that, Reverend? Yes. This is [2:41:05] absolutely false. These federal agents were actually brought in to the state of Minnesota for a very [2:41:10] specific operation to remove illegal alien alien criminals. It wasn't because of the fraud. That's [2:41:16] being handled under a completely different agency and ICE and everything else. That's the U.S. district [2:41:24] attorney, okay? Did you know that? The administration has linked all of these things together. Well, [2:41:30] they've linked the fact that you guys supported an open border that led in 15 to 20 million dollars, [2:41:38] and some of the fallout from that is fraud, like the $9 billion we're talking about today. Some of it [2:41:44] are the rapists, the gangsters, the people that are committing fraud, they're burglarizing people, [2:41:51] they're carjacking people. It's all kind of linked together. It's also linked to the SAVE Act, [2:41:56] which many of you guys and my Democrat colleagues don't want to vote for, even though 83 percent of [2:42:01] Americans support it. It's all linked together, but that's not what this operation was about. [2:42:06] So you're bearing false witness in this hearing today, because that's not what that operation was [2:42:12] about at all. What I'm here to talk about is the suffering of Minnesotans at the hands of federal [2:42:18] agents, including children and their parents, and the great devastation and harm that it has caused [2:42:24] across our state and across our wonderful communities. Have you spoken out about Lake [2:42:30] and Riley or any of the American victims that have been raped, murdered, or killed by these illegal [2:42:35] aliens, Reverend? I didn't think so. I yield back. The gentleman yields back. Now, [2:42:40] the chair recognizes Mr. Min from California. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for convening in this hearing. [2:42:45] Let's start at the outset by just stating the obvious waste, fraud, and abuse are horrible. [2:42:49] They're stealing from taxpayers. They're taking money and food out of the mass of hungry kids. [2:42:55] I have spent my career fighting against fraud. I started my career at the SEC prosecuting corporate [2:43:00] fraud, continued on as a law professor, teaching the next generation. And as someone on the oversight [2:43:05] committee, this is a very, very important issue to me. Again, every dollar that is stolen from these [2:43:11] programs is a dollar that's not just taken from us hardworking taxpayers. It is something that is [2:43:16] meant for a better use. And so I appreciate the gist of this hearing. But as I pointed out in prior [2:43:21] hearings on allegations of fraud in Minnesota, the singular and exclusive focus on the Somalian [2:43:27] community in Minnesota seems very partisan and wrong, because we know there's massive fraud across [2:43:32] this country, particularly in southern states, including states like Florida and Mississippi. [2:43:37] Mississippi is still at trial right now, over $77 million in welfare fraud. Federal prosecutors have [2:43:43] recently arrested a Russian national accused of submitting billions of dollars in fraudulent schemes in [2:43:48] Texas and Florida. And of course, Oklahoma and Alabama consistently rank as the highest states [2:43:53] when it comes to snap fraud. And yet we've only focused on Minnesota. Why? As a freshman member, [2:43:59] I've been here 14 months, but I've learned that the House of Republicans are all single issue voters [2:44:04] with just a handful of exceptions. And that single issue, the only thing that you all care about [2:44:08] is whether you're on team Trump or not. So when Donald Trump goes after Minnesota and falsely claims [2:44:14] that he won the election there three times and that it was rigged against him, I pay close attention. [2:44:18] When he says that he would no longer admit Somalians to this country because they contribute, quote, [2:44:23] nothing to this country, I listen. That's a wildly racist statement, but it's going to reflect what [2:44:27] Republicans are going to do. And that is why we're holding this hearing. I care about welfare fraud, [2:44:32] and I care about the scumbags who rip off taxpayer money. But if this was about welfare fraud, [2:44:36] we'd be also hauling in people like Mississippi Governor Tate Reeves and former NFL quarterback, [2:44:41] Brett Favre, who clearly knew about a scheme to send money to build a volleyball facility at the [2:44:48] college his daughter was playing at, received funds for $600,000 or more for work that he never did [2:44:53] from the government, again, taking money from the mouths of children that are hungry. Now, [2:44:58] this hearing is not about welfare fraud. It's about placating Donald Trump. This committee is holding [2:45:03] this hearing for the same reasons that is ignoring the massive corruption we know that Donald Trump is [2:45:07] engaged in and his family, soliciting bribes from foreign governments and private companies in exchange [2:45:11] for regulatory favor for the same reason that Republicans are protecting pedophiles right now [2:45:16] and that the DOJ is right now actively deleting Epstein files while we're at war with Iran. [2:45:21] It's why they ignore their oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. [2:45:25] It's why we're holding hearings on this rather than on ICE abuses or the fact that Donald Trump just took [2:45:30] us into war without even consulting with Congress, let alone getting our authorization for military use [2:45:36] or force or actual declaration of war in direct contravention of the Constitution of the United [2:45:41] States. But for those of us who care about taxpayer dollars, let's focus on that. This is horrible. [2:45:47] But of course, we have seen instead a different type of abuse of our taxpayer dollars. [2:45:53] They've taken our taxpayer dollars and used them to fund abuses against our American people, [2:45:57] as a number of our witnesses have aptly described. And I want to just point out that until the murder of [2:46:02] Alex Preddy, not a single DHS or ICE agent accused of wrongdoing, witnessed or videotaped assaulting [2:46:09] Americans, was suspended, faced any disciplinary action, that doesn't happen with police. When my [2:46:14] local law enforcement are accused of misconduct, certainly if they're videotaped shooting someone, [2:46:19] they are subject to an investigation. Maybe they're justified or not, but they're suspended, [2:46:23] removed from duty, investigated. None of that has happened until the murder of Alex Preddy [2:46:27] and the outrage around that. Now, Governor Walz, I want to just briefly ask you, [2:46:31] what's the economic impact that deployment of ICE in Minnesota has had over the past few months? [2:46:37] Well, thank you, Congressman. I thank you for your characterization. I associate myself with you on [2:46:41] fraud is horrific. It is corrosive. It hurts those people that are there. And taxpayers should demand [2:46:46] accountability. And I think that's what we're trying to take. The issue can, again- [2:46:53] What's the economic impact? I know business- [2:46:55] Look, for us, we just had our economic numbers. And I would tell people that we have to balance the budget [2:46:59] every year. Minnesota is strongly, we're AAA bond-rated. That shows up good. It doesn't [2:47:04] account for what happened over the last three months. And by estimates, the city of Minneapolis [2:47:08] estimates they lost $200 million alone. And I remind people, you saw pictures of Minneapolis. [2:47:13] This happened across the state. Near my hometown of Mankato, Minnesota, in St. Peter, we saw a woman [2:47:19] that was pulled over at gunpoint, a citizen. The chilling effect it had, businesses going under, [2:47:25] especially immigrant-owned businesses. People who are here legally, citizens, starting businesses, [2:47:31] were shut down. I'm just going to reclaim my time to make one final point here. I was at [2:47:35] Minneapolis, had the chance to meet with you and others. I also met with a number of local police [2:47:39] chiefs. And one of the things they told me, first, this is not the first time ISIS operated in Minnesota. [2:47:45] But in the past, what is different about this time is that they did not coordinate. They did not tell [2:47:49] anyone. And that resulted in a lot of 911 calls. Because when you see mass men jumping out of vans, [2:47:54] pulling people out, assaulting them, punching them in the head, as happens all the time with ICE [2:47:58] agents. And by the way, that's not a matter of training. It's a matter of picking people who [2:48:02] are predisposed to violence. That costs our local police quite a lot of money. It's one of the reasons [2:48:07] I'm going to be introducing the Recoup Act, so that local jurisdictions are repaid for the funds [2:48:12] that they expend due to ICE misconduct. With that, I yield back. [2:48:15] I yield back. Before I recognize Ms. Boebert, Mr. Gill, I understand you have a UC? [2:48:20] Yep. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record or letter from [2:48:25] the America First Policy Institute, dated March 3rd, 2026, which details widespread and rampant fraud [2:48:33] in Minnesota. With that, objection to order, [2:48:36] Chair. And I recognize Ms. Boebert from Colorado. [2:48:38] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm going to summarize some of the things that have already been said here [2:48:42] today rather than ask these questions directly. The federal prosecutors that we have have now [2:48:49] charged nearly 100 individuals across multiple Minnesota fraud schemes, including Feeding Our Future [2:48:57] and related Medicaid, daycare, and autism programs. With 85 of those charged being of Somali descent, [2:49:06] Governor Walz, your administration's Department of Education and Department of Human Services failed [2:49:12] to act on multiple early fraud warnings about Feeding Our Future, allowing the theft of at least $250 [2:49:18] million in federal child nutrition funds that were supposed to feed hungry kids during the COVID-19 [2:49:27] pandemic. Governor Walz, I'd like to turn to the demographics and policy choices that enabled this. [2:49:34] Since you took office, the Somali population in Minnesota has grown substantially. Recently, [2:49:40] Fox 9 reported the reporting puts the total over 107,000. Did your administration's soft on [2:49:49] immigration policies, including expanded refugee programs and temporary protected status, contribute [2:49:56] to that rapid growth? I couldn't speak to why people move to Minnesota, other than it's a great place to [2:50:01] live. Sanctuary policy and refugee programs and temporary protected statuses. According to the [2:50:06] Center for Immigration Studies analysis of census data, 81% of Minnesota households headed by Somali [2:50:13] immigrants receive one or more forms of public assistance compared to just 21% of native-born [2:50:22] Minnesotan households. Why is that disparity so extreme under your watch, sir? [2:50:30] I can't speak specifically, Congressman, but I would anticipate that new generation immigrants, [2:50:37] whether they be Norwegian or whether they be Hmong or whether they be Somali, probably on the front [2:50:42] end as they're establishing homeownership education. I think we should be bringing folks to our country that [2:50:47] are going to contribute and not just siphon off of the tax dollars of American citizens. [2:50:52] Mr. Governor Walz, yes or no, would stricter vetting of immigrants and refugees have prevented [2:50:59] many of these fraudsters from entering our country in the first place? I wouldn't have any way to know [2:51:04] that. Do you agree with stricter vetting processes for those who are coming to our country? I don't care [2:51:09] where you're coming from. If you commit fraud, you're going to jail in Minnesota. That's what I care [2:51:13] about, and that's what I'm here for. Yes or no, should Somali immigrants or any other immigrants [2:51:18] who defraud American taxpayers and steal funds intended for hungry children be deported immediately? [2:51:25] That's a decision for the federal government. You're responsible for immigration. [2:51:29] Governor Walz, do you know who Victoria Eileen Harwell is? I do not believe I do. [2:51:37] What about American Mafalda Tire? I don't believe I do. [2:51:42] There. These are Minnesota women who were brutally killed by illegal aliens in your state. You don't [2:51:52] know who they are, so I would also assume that you did not attend their vigils or speak out to their [2:51:59] families when they were brutally killed by illegal aliens. I'm not familiar with both of these, no, [2:52:04] Congresswoman. No, just the hard-hitting CNN ones. Yes or no, would you support ending Minnesota's [2:52:11] sanctuary policies to stop these fraudsters and murderers from using your state as a safe haven? [2:52:19] Well, as I said on June 12th, we don't have sanctuary policies, and Tom Holman [2:52:24] reiterated that here in the past few weeks that we do not either, and that we are cooperating as required. [2:52:28] Will you direct — thank you, Governor. Will you direct local law enforcement to fully cooperate [2:52:34] with ICE and federal agents and follow federal immigration laws that are currently on the books? [2:52:40] They do. If they want to do more, they can, but we have a floor that they have to. And that's been [2:52:44] proven time and time again in Minnesota over this. That's why they're not — they're leaving, [2:52:48] because we had cooperated. Okay. Final question for you, Governor. There are [2:52:55] multiple documented reports of Somali immigrants entering sham marriages, including siblings [2:53:02] and close family members solely for immigration purposes. Are you aware of these reports? And what, [2:53:11] if anything, has your administration done to stop this kind of immigration fraud happening in your state? [2:53:17] The states are not responsible for immigration screening, and I'm not familiar with what you're [2:53:21] — what you're referencing. You're not responsible for any vetting whatsoever? [2:53:24] The federal government. Okay. Well, this is happening under your watch, and there's immigration fraud, [2:53:28] so we will do everything that we can. And hopefully you allow your local law enforcement officers to [2:53:34] coordinate with federal agents when we are going after these immigration fraudsters. Thank you, Governor. [2:53:41] Thank you, Madam. Chair now recognizes Mr. Walkinshaw from Virginia. [2:53:45] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor, would you agree that fraud is not a victimless crime? [2:53:52] I would agree with that. It is not a victimless crime. Thank you. [2:53:55] And it's my understanding that in Minnesota, you as Governor, you do not have the unilateral power [2:54:00] to pardon those convicted of state crimes, but you and Mr. Ellison and I think one other person [2:54:06] sit on a panel that can issue pardons. Is that correct? Yes, with the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. [2:54:12] Thank you. In your time on that panel, can you recall ever pardoning an individual convicted of fraud? [2:54:17] I can't recall. I can't state either way. Okay. Mr. Ellison, any recollection of that? [2:54:24] It's possible. I don't recall it, though. Okay. I'm not sure if it's true in Minnesota, [2:54:31] but at the federal level, if a convicted fraudster is pardoned, that pardon can wipe out their [2:54:36] obligation to pay restitution to the victims. Are any of our witnesses familiar with this individual? [2:54:44] I know you're far away. His name is Jason Galanis. Sound familiar? I am not, Congressman. Jason Galanis, [2:54:52] according to the federal judge who sentenced him to 15 years in prison, is a serial fraudster [2:54:57] in a con man who defrauded a pension fund in a Native American tribe of $80 million. I'll put [2:55:04] it in simpler terms. He stole money from retirees. Do any of our witnesses know what federal prison [2:55:11] Mr. Galanis is being held in? I do not, Congressman. He's not, [2:55:15] because President Trump, our fraudster in chief, the namesake of the fraudulent Trump University, [2:55:23] the fraudulent Trump Foundation, the fraudulent Trump Organization, pardoned him and relieved him [2:55:29] of the requirement to pay restitution to his victims. A member of this committee, Mr. Jordan, [2:55:34] recommended to President Trump that he be pardoned. Any of our witnesses familiar with this individual? [2:55:41] His name is Jeremy Hutchison. Hutchinson. I am not, Congressman. Mr. Hutchison is a former Arkansas [2:55:48] state senator Republican convicted of a multimillion dollar public corruption scheme, [2:55:54] embezzlement, bribes, illegal campaign contributions, conspiracy to commit bribery. Mr. [2:56:03] Homan might know something about that for passing legislation that benefited an orthodontist who was [2:56:08] paying him off. President Trump's Department of Justice in his first term prosecuted him. A judge [2:56:15] sentenced him to eight years in prison and ordered him to pay $355,000 in restitution to his victims. [2:56:24] Any of our witnesses know where Mr. Hutchinson is serving that sentence today? I have a guess. I have [2:56:31] a guess too. He's not serving a sentence because President Trump pardoned him, relieving him of his [2:56:39] restitution obligation. A corrupt politician prosecuted by Trump's Justice Department in the first term, [2:56:47] pardoned by Trump in this term. Trump has pardoned fraudster after fraudster, denying victims. We [2:56:54] talked about victims, taxpayers, senior citizens, children, the restitution they deserve. $1.3 billion. [2:57:05] That's the total that Trump's pardoned fraudsters have been relieved of paying their victims. The [2:57:13] chairman called this hearing because he's concerned about fraud, about accountability. I share those [2:57:19] concerns. But where is the hearing on the $1.3 billion Trump has relieved his pardoned fraudsters [2:57:29] from paying their victims? Did those victims get a voice in this Congress? There's a lot of outrage [2:57:35] today. Raised voices on both sides. Will we raise our voices on behalf of those who have been victimized [2:57:44] by President Trump's pardoned fraudsters? Governor Walz, what signal would it send if you and Attorney [2:57:55] General Ellison and the judge who sit on this panel were to pardon some of the fraudsters who have [2:58:01] committed this fraud in Minnesota? What signal would that send? What impact could that have? [2:58:06] Congressman, I believe it would send a signal that we don't take it seriously because you have to put [2:58:10] these people in jail and they have to serve their lengthy sentences and they have to do restitution. [2:58:14] And just hypothetically here, if you were to pardon one of those individuals, [2:58:20] how would you explain it to the victims of that fraud, the taxpayers across the country, [2:58:26] those individuals who didn't get access to the social services they need because the money was stolen, [2:58:31] how would you explain it to them? I don't believe I could. I don't think you could either. [2:58:35] May I share? Congressman, that generally when people get any kind of a pardoned [2:58:41] in Minnesota, they've done all their sentence. And Governor Walz is very careful to say, [2:58:45] have you paid every penny you owe people? So that's kind of how we do pardons in Minnesota. [2:58:50] Well, these folks have not paid their pennies $1.3 billion worth of pennies. [2:58:56] Would the gentleman yield to a question? My time has expired, Mr. Chairman. [2:59:00] I'll give you more time if you want. I mean, you mentioned Jason Galanis and that [2:59:05] piqued my interest and I'm sure it did Mr. Biggs as well. [2:59:08] And I think, and you are correct. He did defraud an Indian or a Native American pension fund. Do you [2:59:16] know who his partner was? I know all the background of it. The point is, he stole money from people. [2:59:21] Would you state who his partner was? It was Hunter Biden. And Jason Galanis served in prison for how long, [2:59:29] Mr. Biggs? Two years. No, that's incorrect. No, he served in prison years. Many years. And they were equal [2:59:36] partners and Galanis blew the whistle during our Biden investigation and he was raped. He was raped [2:59:42] in prison right after that. So that's correct. Will the victims of his fraud get their money back? [2:59:48] Why? I don't know. Maybe ask Hunter Biden. You weren't here in your defense. You weren't here during the Biden [2:59:55] investigation. Ask President Trump to get the victims their money back. You've been here about three months, [2:59:58] but you know more than anybody about everything. So the chair recognizes Mr. Biggs from Arizona. [3:00:05] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I'm glad you brought it up because of the 10 partners in that fraud that [3:00:13] you mentioned, nine of them went to prison. Do you know who the one partner was that didn't go? [3:00:19] Your buddy, Hunter Biden. That's right. Hunter Biden didn't go. And by the way, you didn't, [3:00:25] you must not have been here. I don't think you were here when I introduced all these documents [3:00:30] earlier before I had to leave to go to judiciary talking about of the 1500 criminals pardoned by [3:00:40] Joe Biden in one week, two dozen of them were fraudsters that had hundreds of millions of dollars [3:00:47] of restitution forgiven by Joe Biden. I'm going to go now to Mr. Ellison. Will the gentleman yield? [3:00:52] No, I've had enough of you. Let's talk to Mr. Ellison. Mr. Ellison, isn't it true that when [3:00:57] you were a member of Congress, you sponsored the Money Remittances Improvement Act of 2014? [3:01:03] It was HR 4386. Do you remember that? Congressman, I think that it's accurate. [3:01:10] Yeah. I mean, I get you. We all introduced lots of bills. But that bill's purpose was to give more [3:01:16] authority to states to investigate remittance payments. Do you remember that? Congressman, [3:01:23] I believe that the purpose of that bill was to facilitate financial transactions for Minnesotans [3:01:30] who needed them. Well, in reality, you shifted remittance payment investigations to the states, [3:01:37] and that was supported by the Somali American Remittances Association. You may not remember that, [3:01:42] but that was. Congressman, could you remind me, did that bill ever pass? [3:01:46] H.R. 4386. So it was supported by Somali American Resistance Association, and it was so [3:01:52] important to you. You said, quote, this is a great day for diaspora communities around the country, [3:01:57] including the Somali and Hmong communities. And that's something you said. And we know that the [3:02:06] Somali population in Minnesota supported that bill. That bill was passed, I believe, in 2014. [3:02:14] Minnesota started identifying large numbers of remittances payments going overseas. [3:02:18] And isn't it true that within four years of the bill passing, more than $100 million had been [3:02:22] flown out of the Minneapolis airport by Somalians? Do you know that? [3:02:27] I don't have the information on that. And then over the last two years, [3:02:31] the TSA has identified over $700 million being flown out and linked to Somali travel. Are you familiar [3:02:36] with that? No, sir. I don't have the data on that. Under your tenure as the AG, the amount of [3:02:44] remittance payments going to Somalia, which, by the way, some estimates as high as 40 percent of all [3:02:50] Somalia's GDP comes from those remittance payments. And roughly 40, same number of 40 percent of [3:02:57] families in Somalia receive some benefit, economic benefit directly from some remittance payments. [3:03:04] So moving from that, do you know Salim Said? That name is not familiar to me, sir. Ikran Mohamed? No. [3:03:13] Abshir Omar? No. Okay. So in 2021, you met with a group of Somali's business people. Those three [3:03:25] people were there. Safari Restaurant, Partners in Quality Care, also known as Parties in Nutrition, [3:03:32] some of their named partners, and feeding our future representatives, including Abshir Omar, who said [3:03:38] they were having difficulties because they were being investigated. And that conduct is very racist, [3:03:47] xenophobic, and Islamophobic. Do you remember that meeting? Yes, I do. And I'll tell you that these [3:03:56] are people who were fraudsters. They lied to me. They lied to the judge. They lied to state agencies. And [3:04:02] that's why we contributed to them being convicted. Well, let's go on from that, because you may not [3:04:07] remember some of the things you said to them. Specifically, and maybe we should play this video. [3:04:14] I don't know if we have the video queued up. If we have video queued up with us, fine. Let's do it. [3:04:20] You call them and say, this is not in the right format. Not, you're out. You're done. Your contracts [3:04:27] are over. And so this has my attention. I'm extremely frustrated by it. But we are in the middle of a [3:04:36] battle with the agencies now. And I can tell you this. Walls agrees with me that this piddly, [3:04:46] stupid stuff running small people out of business is terrible. Because what you thought was terrible [3:04:52] there was that these people were being investigated for fraud. And you later took $10,000 in campaign [3:04:59] donations from these same individuals. Do you remember that? I would disagree with that [3:05:03] characterization entirely, sir. I'm sure you would. No, what I would. Because it's surely uncomfortable [3:05:08] for you. But you took $10,000 from those same people that were ostensibly supposed to be [3:05:13] investigated. Yeah. No, that's actually inaccurate. No, it's not inaccurate. It is. First of all, [3:05:19] you're entitled to say it's inaccurate. But the facts are the facts. And my time has expired, [3:05:25] Mr. Chairman. But I do have some, I do have some UC requests. Go ahead. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [3:05:32] Minnesota AG, who took $10,000 from convicted scammers, dismisses fraud scandal as political [3:05:39] theater. Without objection. Amy Bach alleges Governor Tim Waltz, Attorney General Keith Ellison, [3:05:44] knew of Minnesota fraud. Without objection. Waltz and Omar using ICE operations to distract [3:05:49] from fraud scandal. Without objection. Tim Waltz accused of stonewalling key probe as Somali fraud [3:05:55] sweeps his state. Without objection. Conservatives blasts Dems Waltz for likening ICE agents to Nazi [3:06:01] police force. Without objection. Tim Waltz searches Minnesotans to resist federal occupation. Without [3:06:07] objection. Tim Waltz was a COVID-19 tyrant. Without objection. Anti-ICE agitators set up [3:06:13] blockade on Minneapolis Street to check driver's license plates. Without objection to order. Minnesota [3:06:18] Attorney General's legal opinion could threaten some county agreements with ICE. Without objection to [3:06:23] order. ICE restricted from Minneapolis-owned parking areas under Mayor Frye orders. Minnesota [3:06:29] Minnesota mom jailed over COVID-19 accuses Wallace of tyranny. Minnesota grandma jailed for defying [3:06:33] Wallace COVID-19 lockdown order warns you do not want tyranny at this level. And mother ponders. And [3:06:38] that's all. Without objection to order. Chair now recognize Ms. Presley from Massachusetts. [3:06:42] I've been in Congress now for almost eight years. And one of the most meaningful moments that I [3:06:50] experienced here was in the Committee on Oversight and Reform under the great Chairman Elijah Cummings. [3:06:58] It was the first hearing to take place that I introduced in the House of Representatives on the epidemic [3:07:05] that is childhood trauma. Though I represent the Massachusetts 7th, one through line has remained [3:07:11] true in my travels and conversations from Massachusetts to Minnesota to Illinois to Texas. And it is the [3:07:19] devastating impacts of Trump's terror campaign on our nation's children. This administration's policies, [3:07:27] including but certainly not limited to Operation Metro Surge. In my opinion, I would characterize as [3:07:35] child abuse, child neglect, and inflicting childhood trauma. We are experiencing in real time the [3:07:44] compounded adultifying of our children, where increasingly so, a childhood is a privilege instead of [3:07:51] a right. I'm reminded of a conversation I had recently at the airport where a dad approached me to talk about [3:07:58] his six-year-old son who returned home from school pleading and begging for his parents to give safe [3:08:05] haven to his classmate, his best friend, for fear that if they did not do that, that he would be deported. [3:08:13] No child should have those concerns or carry that heavy burden. But this is the reality for our nation's [3:08:20] children under Donald Trump's America. Frederick Douglass said it is easier to build strong [3:08:28] children than to repair broken men. We are certainly not building strong children. In my district, the [3:08:37] Massachusetts 7th Eleni was only two weeks old when her father was wrongfully taken by ICE, a trauma that [3:08:45] she will carry for the rest of her life. Again, so far I'm speaking about the pleas of a six-year-old and [3:08:54] the policy, rather the family separation of a two-week-old. In Minnesota, Liam Ramos was [3:09:02] only at the age of five years old, was detained by ICE and sent to Texas, and he'll carry that trauma for [3:09:09] the rest of his life. There are the children that are directly impacted, then there is that secondary [3:09:15] trauma for those who have bore witness. While in Minnesota, I met with parents who have had to [3:09:20] establish parental patrols armed with whistles and orange vests and their cameras to try to keep their [3:09:27] children safe. Green Street Elementary, it was just across the street from one of the murders that [3:09:33] occurred in broad daylight under Operation Metro Surge. Around the country, the children of Renee Good, Keith [3:09:40] Porter, Geraldo Campos, and dozens of other children whose parents were killed by ICE [3:09:45] agents, will carry that trauma the rest of their lives. Trauma in their bodies, their classrooms, [3:09:50] their sleep. It shows up in the ways they cling to their parents at school drop-off, in the silence [3:09:55] of a child who used to speak freely, in nightmares that no children, no child should be visited by. [3:10:03] Governor Walz is a former educator and coach. You worked closely with young people experiencing [3:10:07] traumatic events. What effect does this have on them, their classmates, and community? And have you heard [3:10:12] from mental health professionals or pediatric providers about how this is showing up in your state? [3:10:21] No. Well, thank you for the question, Congresswoman. First of all, I would say when I talk about [3:10:24] Minnesota being one of the best states, if we're not first, it's usually because Massachusetts is. [3:10:28] And I note that it is true because you care about this. And you mentioned it correctly, this is [3:10:33] generational trauma that's been inflicted, whether it's learning loss that's happened or the trauma we've [3:10:37] seen amongst our children. I say that as an educator, as governor of the deep concern, [3:10:43] but as a parent of seeing this, what's happened to our children. We know that mental health issues [3:10:47] will start to show up. We know that we'll see educational loss. And those have generational [3:10:51] impacts on our economy and everything else. But I will note, your colleague mentioned me being a [3:10:57] tyrant during COVID. We had some of the lowest deaths due to COVID. Tyrant looks like children being [3:11:03] drugged from their parents, old people being drugged out of their house without warrants, [3:11:08] two dead on the streets. And your point, the world saw a piece of it on TV. I can tell you, [3:11:15] none of us are going to be the same, Congresswoman. We're going to deal with this. And we are going [3:11:20] to put money into social service programs to address it while we tighten up fraud protections. [3:11:25] Because the idea is, is you have all these generous programs. Yes. And our people are healthier. [3:11:30] Our people are more educated, our economy stronger. So thank you. [3:11:34] Thank you. I ask you, Dan, as consent to enter into the record of February 2026 article from [3:11:39] Hackinger report titled parental stress, raids and isolation, immigration enforcement traumatizes [3:11:47] even the youngest children without objection to order. You know, as I close, I've always [3:11:52] taken issue with the myth that children are resilient and something that people say, because [3:11:57] I guess it brings them comfort. The false notion that if you hurt kids, they will automatically heal. [3:12:03] It allows policymakers to inflict harm and then to look away. But children are not collateral for [3:12:10] reckless and godless policies. And they should not be ignored. Rather, we should center children to [3:12:16] understand the impacts of all these policies. And Governor Walz with these remaining seconds. [3:12:24] I'm sorry, ma'am. Okay. Well, I yield. [3:12:26] All right. Thank you. Chair now recognizes Mr. Sessions from Texas. [3:12:31] Mr. Chairman, thank you very much to my two former colleagues. I would welcome you back. And I know [3:12:36] that this is something that is not as easily done. And I recognize that I want to thank our Methodist [3:12:46] preacher for being here. I want to put in some context what you've heard today. And that is probably [3:12:52] to both of you, not a lot has changed up here. We're still trying to play the gotcha game. We're still [3:12:58] trying to people are trying to do their job. That's what we are trying to do here. We come back and talk [3:13:04] about children, yet we forget that President Biden, President Obama had tens of thousands, 800,000 [3:13:11] children that were lost by them that President Trump is still trying to find. We talk about not trusting [3:13:22] ICE, which is a federal component. And yet the Boston bombers caused chaos. I can't imagine why we [3:13:31] wouldn't want to form up a relationship instead of saying ICE is no good. We don't want you. It is [3:13:36] the federal component. So with all that said, in fairness to each of you, you've heard what we've said [3:13:44] today. So I would ask you, Governor, and then I will say it right up front. I was kind of hoping that [3:13:52] you might show up or both of you might show up because you're a Methodist preacher is here and [3:13:58] say, we didn't do everything right. We think there were a lot of things done wrong. We think we want [3:14:04] to learn. We come and ask that you understand that this is something that happened in our midst. [3:14:11] My Methodist preacher, I'm a global Methodist. My Methodist preacher meets with me pretty often and [3:14:20] make sure that he knows and I know. I look for balance. I look for fairness. I look for objectivity. [3:14:28] And I know you've not been placed in a very good position now, but I've got three minutes left. [3:14:33] Governor, what did we do wrong here? How do you want to set that record straight? Because otherwise, [3:14:40] it's going to be he said against you guys. And I want you to tell me, where did we get it wrong [3:14:46] on this side? Well, Congressman, I appreciate that. And I do say. And you and I are friends. We are. [3:14:52] And I've said it publicly before. We disagreed on some issues, but we had a lot of conversations on [3:14:56] the floor. Look, I think I agree with you. As governor, I've taken accountability for this. [3:15:00] I'm not going to run again. I need to spend the time fixing this. This does undermine trust in [3:15:04] government. Do I wish there were things that could have happened earlier? Yes. But in this job, [3:15:08] wish didn't do it. I'm looking into where I see it. I can tell you this, Congressman, [3:15:13] that the safeguards we're putting in place are going to make a difference. I think other states [3:15:17] can use them. I think one of the things is I asked if helping in the partnership piece of this, [3:15:23] understanding that this happens in all states. I'm certainly not proud this happened. I certainly [3:15:27] understand it happened on my watch. Whether it predated me or not, I'm here. I think some of the [3:15:32] things is there's some legal changes we need around Medicaid eligibility issues that you're talking about [3:15:36] that actually might get at this. Because I would hope, Congressman, you and I agree, [3:15:40] these programs are valuable. And they need to go to the people who need them. And we need to stop [3:15:45] the fraud that's in there. And I'm trying to explain to you what we did from the beginning. [3:15:48] These people continue to be a moving target. And they are very sophisticated. [3:15:52] Is there still a problem? Is there still fraud happening? Is there still a problem? And we'll say [3:15:56] in Minnesota, I know we're not. I think there's more work to be done. Yes, I will tell you that. And [3:16:01] we're working on it. I have a package that I introduced last week. One of the things that I think is going [3:16:05] to be helpful, and I know you're working on it up here, is the ability to use AI. It's the [3:16:09] pre-screening. What you don't want to hear from us is, and I don't want to hear, [3:16:12] that we're arresting people after they did it. We need to stop it before it happened. [3:16:16] And I agree with some of that. We're moving upstream. We do need to arrest them, however. [3:16:20] We do. We do. But if we're just continuously chasing our tails, it's like I said, [3:16:23] if you arrest me, I'd like to keep working with you because we've got to stop this. And so, [3:16:28] I would welcome that. If you put together a list that we can send to other governors and say, [3:16:33] here's what we did. General? That's fantastic. Congressman Sessions, let me just say thank [3:16:38] you for your question. I absolutely think there is more that all of us can do to protect the public [3:16:44] dollar and get the money where it was intended to go. There are all kinds of ways to make sure. [3:16:49] Yes, but we're talking about the lessons learned. Are you going to show up today [3:16:53] and take as the governor did and say, we made a mistake. I owe an apology to people. We believe that [3:17:00] what you've tried to do today to defend. I'm not trying to put you in a corner, [3:17:04] General. I'm trying to get you, because we're sitting here, trying to get to [3:17:08] where we're going to go. I can assure you, Congressman, that I am here [3:17:14] to work to improve this system. And there are improvements that can be made. And your offer to [3:17:21] work on a bipartisan basis to solve this fraud crisis, I am all in. And if we could get to, [3:17:29] if we can get out of fixing the blame and get to fixing the problem, that would be an enormous [3:17:34] thing for me. And I, and I thank you for asking. Well, it's my hope that you will [3:17:39] know that being here today, we're doing our job, other people doing their job, [3:17:43] but we've got to get to where we can then say, and here is the problem. And we'll take, [3:17:48] so governor did accept responsibility and let's get on to fixing this because tomorrow is a new day. [3:17:55] Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the time. Yes, sir. I give back my time. Thank you. Chair recognizes [3:18:00] my friend, Ms. Tlaib. He says that, but then he cuts me off. Thank you all for coming here. I think [3:18:08] it's really important. And, you know, Reverend, you, I can tell that you care deeply about your [3:18:14] community and it takes courage to come before this committee, especially when you hear so much [3:18:21] to me, just misinformation also embedded in racist tropes about your community. And so I wanted to [3:18:30] ask you, you know, I think a lot of Americans, we think about what compelled you to speak out and [3:18:35] join hundreds of other faith leaders at the Minnesota, the St. Paul airport to protest against [3:18:41] the violent ice occupation of your community. Thank you for the question. I, yes, I am here, [3:18:49] just as I was that day at the airport because I am representative of so many Minnesotans who are [3:18:57] actively engaged in the work of neighboring. And I'm also here as I was that day because there are so [3:19:04] many Minnesotans for whom it is not safe to speak out today. And I'll tell you, you know, we're learning [3:19:10] a lot. I think the country, the whole country is learning a lot from all of you and your neighboring [3:19:16] and showing love and showing up for your community. And I know it took a lot of courage for even some [3:19:20] of the elected officials to stand up and say, you know, not on our watch. You know, we talk about [3:19:26] the fearlessness that is needed sometimes to fight for our rights. And some people will continue to [3:19:32] gaslight folks and call us domestic terrorists to surveil us more, to try to bully us and intimidate [3:19:37] us to silence. And I just want the Minnesota people to know, I know my district sees you all, [3:19:42] and we say continue it. You are freeing all of us when you continue to speak up and you're protecting [3:19:48] all of us as well. In response to, of course, the powerful local resistance, you know, one of the things [3:19:55] they keep saying is it's ended, it's done. You heard my colleague from Boston, Congresswoman Ayanna [3:20:02] Presley, talk about trauma. It's not done. There needs to be a lot of healing and I don't think they want to [3:20:08] fund that or support that. But I am asking just as myself and many of us in my district are wondering, [3:20:15] is it truthful? Are they done? Unfortunately, it's not over. As we heard, there are still 650 ICE [3:20:23] agents in Minnesota. That means there is still fear and trauma for our children and for our immigrant [3:20:29] and refugee neighbors. And as Ms. Presley named, the trauma will go on and we have much work to do [3:20:39] in healing and caring for, especially those who've been most victimized in this. [3:20:45] So I want to talk about intention. What's the intent of this hearing? What's the intent of all of it? [3:20:51] I think intention is important because, you know, for the chairman, if I can submit, [3:20:56] um, for the record, uh, article titled Fraud Focus. Why is Trump granting clemency to convicted fraudsters? [3:21:04] Without objection to order. Because I see this. And even though you're here, you have nothing to hide. [3:21:10] These folks are not here. I don't get to question them. I don't get to say to the guy that committed [3:21:16] $200 million Medicare fraud who just got pardoned by Trump. I don't get to ask Jared Kushner, you know, [3:21:23] why is your dad go from literally in France, the title of the article is, uh, prison to Paris. [3:21:30] Literally from committing fraud, he pardons, uh, his son-in-law's father. And now he's an ambassador. [3:21:37] You see all that happening. It's like, well, what's the intention here? They're creating, uh, [3:21:41] a world's largest, uh, paramilitary under the direct control of the president who has made it clear that [3:21:46] he intends to crush dissent, to crush dissent, target entire cities and rig elections. He literally is [3:21:55] telling us he's going to send ICE agents out on election day to intimidate and target our community. [3:22:02] He's not lying. He's going to do it. And I think we need to be very, very much prepared [3:22:08] at the same time intention. Governor, I seen him, uh, in this administration freeze funding freeze [3:22:16] and blaming all of these people. Like I hope people don't blame my community for everything Trump's [3:22:22] doing. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, can you imagine right now the impact that this happening? [3:22:27] What, what, I mean, can you, what impact is it going to really have right now? I mean, [3:22:31] you're talking about today, this is cut off and he's refusing to let go of the money that, [3:22:36] again, Minnesota, Minnesota actually, uh, is supposed to rightfully get appropriated. [3:22:42] 400,000 children lose health care, pregnant women, and elderly and rural hospitals will [3:22:48] be severely impacted and potentially close. It's hard because I wonder if they would do that in [3:22:53] Kentucky where they have fraud and Tennessee where they have fraud. Their own numbers show [3:22:57] that our air rate is 2.1%. The national average is 6%. I know you guys testified about it. Uh, [3:23:03] attorney general, um, even though, you know, you gave everybody else 30 seconds, [3:23:08] I need to ask you. I mean, you're here today. What could you be doing right now? You're attorney [3:23:14] general. You do what, what today, if you were at work instead of here, to be honest, I mean, [3:23:19] can you explain what, what, what's back home that you have work to do at home? Like, what can you be [3:23:23] doing instead? Microphone, please. All right. Have as a Medicaid fraud bill that I'm trying to get past [3:23:33] to increase the legislature is in session. The legislature is in session and I'm supposed to [3:23:38] meet with house caucus leaders tonight, hoping to make that, uh, so that we can do more, uh, to stop fraud. [3:23:45] Yeah. So that that's one thing I could be doing among 20 others. Well, I'll tell you, you know, [3:23:49] I'm always reminded and please bear with me, Chairman Comer, our amazing, uh, you know, former chair, [3:23:56] um, Elijah Cummings, first hearing I ever had as a freshman was on the high cost of prescription drugs. [3:24:04] It was incredible. It was powerful. It was real. And the intent there was, [3:24:08] let's make sure people that get sick are taken care of. I'm just so tired of these hearings that are [3:24:13] just politicized in a way that is not consistent because if he's doing this, [3:24:18] why are you targeting an innocent people? Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Leib. I gave you an extra [3:24:23] minute and 15 seconds to criticize, criticize the chairman of the committee. So, uh, but I do like [3:24:31] Mr. Leib chair recognizes Mr. Gill from Texas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you, uh, to the [3:24:37] witnesses for taking the time to be here. Uh, Governor Walter, are you familiar with the early intensive [3:24:43] developmental and behavioral intervention benefit? I am Congressman. Got it. It's, uh, [3:24:51] provide services for autism patients. Is that right? That is correct. Got it. And when were you, [3:24:57] when did you become governor? Uh, in January of 2019. In 2019. Okay. So using 2018 as a baseline, [3:25:04] do you know what that program paid, uh, in Medicaid claims? I do not Congressman. It was about $671,000. [3:25:12] Do you know what that program paid in Medicaid claims in 2024? I don't have the number in front [3:25:17] of me. $342 million. That's about a 500 X increase over six years. Were there, was there a 500 [3:25:26] times the number of autism patients, uh, in, in that time period? I couldn't specific speak specifically [3:25:32] to it, but I will say Congressman that that doesn't sound reasonable, right? You know, I think there was [3:25:37] a 500 X increase in the number of autism patients in six years, right? Correct. And that's why we ordered [3:25:42] onsite visits starting back. So we, so we agree that that, that doesn't sound reasonable. [3:25:47] Would you also agree that a single taxpayer dollar wasted on fraud is a dollar too much to tolerate? [3:25:52] Yes. Yep. And, and would you agree that as governor, ultimately you're responsible [3:25:57] if tax dollars are defrauded? Yes, I would agree. [3:26:01] Would you also agree that calling somebody racist is a serious accusation? [3:26:08] If they are racist, I think it's probably accurate. I'm asking you if, [3:26:11] is that a serious accusation to make to say about somebody? I, I, I think it's just an observation [3:26:17] of reality. All right. Well, let's go there. Is it racist for, for a government official to identify fraud? [3:26:25] No. No. Is, is it Islamophobic? [3:26:28] To identify fraud? To identify fraud? I, no, I don't believe it would be. [3:26:33] How, how come multiple whistleblowers have said that your administration told them [3:26:37] not to say anything about widespread fraud across multiple agencies because [3:26:41] doing so would be considered racist or Islamophobic? [3:26:45] I can't speak to it because it's not anything I would say. [3:26:48] Well, that, that's what your administration has said and has told whistleblowers and [3:26:52] as you just testified, the buck stops with you. That's what you stated in your, [3:26:56] uh, in your statement whenever you announced you weren't running again. Are, are you familiar [3:27:00] with Faye Bernstein? I, I, uh, yes, I'm familiar with the name. [3:27:05] She's a Democrat, isn't she? I wouldn't know that. [3:27:07] She, she's stated publicly that she's a Democrat. She's only voted Democrat in, in her life. Um, [3:27:13] she's also stated publicly, um, that she was retaliated against and called racist and that [3:27:18] her work responsibilities were diminished whenever she was highlighting fraud within [3:27:22] your administration. Are you familiar with that? I couldn't speak to. Why do you think she would [3:27:26] allegation? Why do you think she would say that? I can't speak for what you have no idea. I do not. [3:27:32] You, you would, you would agree that the tone in your administration comes from, [3:27:36] from you ultimately, right? The tone is that the tone of, of how you might deal [3:27:40] with whistleblowers, right? And we protect them. It doesn't sound like you're, you're protecting [3:27:45] them. We heard from representative Kristen Robbins quote, we have dozens of credible whistleblower [3:27:50] reports saying the exact same thing that people were told not to say anything because they'd be [3:27:54] called racist or Islamophobic or it would hurt the state. Do you think it's racist or Islamophobic to [3:28:01] highlight and try to stop fraud? It is not. And I certainly it's not, [3:28:05] but that was the message your administration was sending to multiple whistleblowers. [3:28:09] I can't speak to that. You can't speak to that. No, you don't want to speak to that. I think. [3:28:13] I have, I have over 40,000 employees. Should whistleblowers be retaliated against? [3:28:17] Pardon me? Do you think whistleblowers should be retaliated against? [3:28:20] Absolutely not. They have strong protections in Minnesota and lots of paths. And the paths go for the [3:28:25] OLA. That's not what we're hearing from whistleblowers. Faye Bernstein, who again has stated that she is a [3:28:29] Democrat. She's only ever voted Democrat. That doesn't matter whether she's Democrat or Republican. [3:28:34] A smear campaign for trying to make leadership aware of illegal contracting practices. [3:28:39] Why do you think that happened? I can't speak to that, [3:28:42] Congressman, because we don't do it. You just don't, you don't know anything? [3:28:46] I do know that it, that we don't, we have strong whistleblower protections and I can't speak. [3:28:50] That's not what the whistleblowers are saying. According to another report, quote, [3:28:54] there's just a continuous effort to stifle you, to shut you up, and it's impossible to overcome. [3:29:00] Your administration's response to whistleblowers has also been described as, quote, [3:29:04] nearly unbearable retaliation. We've heard claims that, quote, they've been [3:29:09] denied vacations, promotions, and that it's hurt people's careers to speak out against fraud. Do you [3:29:14] think that that had something to do with the prevalence of fraud in your administration? [3:29:19] I can't speak to it, but it doesn't happen. [3:29:20] Are you going to take responsibility for this? [3:29:22] I certainly, I supervise 40,000 employees. State agencies have their own account. [3:29:25] You supervise a lot of, a lot of employees and, and as you have said, the buck stops with you [3:29:31] and your administration has treated whistleblowers like absolute dirt and that's a big reason why [3:29:36] we've seen so much of our hard-earned tax dollars defrauded. [3:29:40] There's, look, Congressman, I told you we have strong protections. We have the, an Office of, [3:29:44] Office of Legislative Auditor. This committee has spoken to nearly 30 whistleblowers. [3:29:48] And they came to the- Most of which are current employees in your administration [3:29:51] who have intimate knowledge of what, what's been going on, [3:29:54] who have all stated that they've faced retaliation for calling out fraud. [3:29:59] I can't speak to them of what they felt. And time is up. I yield back. [3:30:04] Recognize Ms. Ms. Ansari? [3:30:06] Mr. Chairman, it's outrageous that this is what we're choosing to spend our time on, [3:30:11] on the oversight committee. At the first one- [3:30:13] Fraud? Fraud? [3:30:15] At the first one, yes, fraud, because let's talk about fraud. At the first one of these ridiculous [3:30:21] series of hearings on Minnesota, I brought up the dozens of horrific ongoing corruption scandals [3:30:27] in the Trump administration, but I know we're very scared of Donald Trump, so we won't be talking about [3:30:31] those. But those are the things that we should be investigating on the oversight committee. [3:30:36] Now we have another one. The Department of Justice was caught red-handed withholding explosive and [3:30:42] credible FBI witness interviews of a woman who accused Donald Trump of sexually assaulting her [3:30:48] when she was a minor. Shouldn't we hold a hearing on that? Shouldn't Pam Bondi be here, [3:30:53] forced to testify why she is violating the law that Congress passed, the Epstein Files Transparency [3:30:59] Act, nearly unanimously, along with this committee's subpoena? But since the Republican majority [3:31:05] instead wants to have a conversation about Minnesota, then let's do that. The Trump-Epstein regime's [3:31:11] deployment of thousands of ICE agents, Donald Trump's personal secret police force is a fascist [3:31:18] disgrace. These untrained agents terrorized the people of Minnesota, violated their rights, [3:31:24] and even shot them dead in the streets. I want to remind us all about what happened to Alex Preddy, [3:31:31] an intensive care nurse murdered by CBP agents while trying to protect a woman that the officers were [3:31:39] assaulting. After his murder, Stephen Miller said Alex was, quote, a domestic terrorist who tried to [3:31:47] assassinate federal law enforcement, a would-be assassin, and an assassin. Kristi Noem said Alex was, quote, [3:31:56] committing an act of domestic terrorism. She said, I don't know any peaceful protester that shows up with a [3:32:03] gun and ammunition rather than a sign. She accused Alex Preddy of brandishing a weapon, despite video [3:32:10] evidence showing the gun never left its holster. Greg Bovino said, quote, this looks like a situation [3:32:17] where an individual wanted to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement. And Donald Trump said Alex [3:32:24] was, quote, a gunman whose weapon was loaded with two additional full magazines and ready to go. He [3:32:31] said Alex was an agitator and perhaps an insurrectionist, obviously projecting about himself. [3:32:39] Dictators in other countries would literally be impressed at how brazen these lies and propaganda [3:32:46] spread by the Trump regime and Kristi Noem are. So, Governor Walz, I want to thank you and Attorney General [3:32:53] Ellison for putting up with all of the lying and hypocrisy from the Republican majority. [3:32:58] Governor, is the Trump administration attempting to block Minnesota state and local police [3:33:03] from investigating the murders of Alex Preddy and Renee Nicole? [3:33:07] Renee Nicole Good? I believe we're not getting any [3:33:09] cooperation. We were told we would not be part of that. Attorney General may know more. [3:33:16] Yes, Congresswoman. We have been told that we would not have access to investigative file, [3:33:23] which would include evidence that would be relevant to the investigation in both cases. And even [3:33:29] there's one shooting incident that was non-fatal and that one has also been, we've been frozen out [3:33:36] in that as well. So, two follow-up questions. We had to go to court to get the evidence preserved. [3:33:42] Okay, and two follow-up questions on whichever one of you wants to answer. Why do you think that might [3:33:47] be the case and is this out of the ordinary? It is wildly out of the ordinary. I can tell you that our local [3:33:54] FBI, ATF, even before Operation Metro Surge, you didn't, you know, you heard about ICE matters, [3:34:04] but you didn't hear about it nearly as much as we do now. This is an extraordinary departure [3:34:10] from what we know. And we routinely work with federal partners. And we've never had problems until now, [3:34:16] like this. I would just speculate that they need to take accountability for it. And I think they [3:34:22] understood what the world saw, that this was improper, and it needs to have justice for these [3:34:27] families. And it doesn't appear. I hope those questions are being asked of Secretary Noem today. [3:34:33] And Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison, are you committed to getting to the truth about the [3:34:37] murders of Alex Preddy and Renee Goode? Absolutely, yes. Yes, I pledge to their families we do that. [3:34:44] Thank you. We need to hold this administration accountable for these murders, starting by impeaching [3:34:50] Kristi Noem for gross misconduct, lying to Congress, and failure to uphold the laws and the Constitution. [3:34:57] I yield back. Chair recognizes Mr. Grothman from Wisconsin. Thank you. We'll go for Governor Walz again. [3:35:05] A major focus of today's hearing has been the misuse of federal funds distributed through the [3:35:10] Child Care and Development Block Grant. This program is supposed to be helping working families afford [3:35:15] child care. And I think the taxpayers expect these programs to be protected from waste and fraud. [3:35:22] Most programs, most states operate these programs responsibly. The national improper payment average [3:35:29] is about 4%. As you know, I kind of watch what's going on in Minnesota because it's a state adjacent to [3:35:36] Wisconsin. It's amazing if you're a congressman, the number of people who get Minnesota and Wisconsin [3:35:43] confused. But when that number climbs above the national average of 4%, it should be a warning sign [3:35:50] that oversight has failed. Minnesota's improper payment rate got up to 11%. That's not a small [3:35:56] administrative mistake over almost three times the national average. That is a system that's clearly [3:36:02] not being monitored the way it should be. When Wisconsin had a similar program several years ago when [3:36:08] I was in the state legislature. In 2010, we uncovered fraud in our child care assistance program. [3:36:14] Wisconsin did not look away. We took responsibility, implemented serious reforms, [3:36:20] and those reforms included expanding background checks for providers, creating a dedicated fraud [3:36:25] investigation unit, strengthening eligibility requirements, and instituting a comprehensive audit [3:36:33] system. That would have been when Scott Walker was governor. Because of these reforms, [3:36:37] Wisconsin now has an improper payment of under one percent. So in other words, we almost totally [3:36:43] wiped out the problem. It didn't happen by accident. It happened because Governor Walker took [3:36:48] responsibility and acted quickly. He thought fraud was a problem. Governor Walz, Minnesota had similar [3:36:55] warning signs. Investigators, auditors, even internal officials kept raising concerns about fraud in social [3:37:04] service systems. It didn't just cost taxpayers money. These programs are meant to help children and working [3:37:09] families. When fraud drains millions of these dollars from these programs, that money is not reaching the [3:37:15] people it was intended to serve. First of all, Governor Walz, when did your administration first become [3:37:20] aware that fraud risks were escalating in Minnesota's child care assistance program? You were kind of an [3:37:26] outlier in the whole country. [3:37:27] Well, thank you, Congressman. [3:37:29] This dates back to about 2012 that the action has been being taken. And as I stated earlier, [3:37:35] on our first days in office, we started taking action. I would ask if I could on this. Anything [3:37:40] that Governor Walker did, I would appreciate if you'd show us what those actions were. We're more than [3:37:46] happy to implement them. And that's what we've started over the last seven years. Reports indicate that [3:37:51] some providers continued receiving payments even after the fraud concerns were raised. Was that a decision made by [3:37:56] your administration and who specifically you feel did not? [3:38:02] I can't speak specifically to which those were. Decisions are made at the department level, [3:38:07] but I can't speak to what those allegations were. We're told it was still 11 percent under your [3:38:14] administration. When fraud indicators appear in a program funded by federal taxpayers, [3:38:19] do you believe the responsibility, the responsible action is to pause payments until those concerns are [3:38:24] investigated? I don't think it's that simple. As I said, these programs provide a [3:38:30] really important service and child care is a critical one that the issue is trying to make [3:38:34] sure the legitimate payments are made and that you're stopping fraud. So I don't think in all [3:38:38] cases that pausing those payments is the right action. Okay. Just in general, I'll say when the fraud [3:38:43] when the fraud percentage reached 11 percent in Minnesota and we got it down under 1 percent in [3:38:48] Wisconsin, I think it's a cause for concern. I'll give you another question because a little bit of this [3:38:54] hearing wandered a little bit to what happened in your streets out there. When any agency comes to [3:39:04] Wisconsin, any federal agency, I've talked to several of our sheriffs, could be ICE, could be Bureau of [3:39:11] Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, could be FBI, could be Secret Service. Our sheriffs always try to coordinate [3:39:18] with the federal agencies, ask them what they need. You need to set up a perimeter. Can we help you by [3:39:24] transporting people to the local jail? Do you just want some squad cars parked around to make, to [3:39:32] presumably keep troublemakers at bay? That was not done in Minnesota, like it's routinely done [3:39:39] in certainly all the world. I don't think that's correct characterization. I think Tom Holman indicated that [3:39:44] those things do happen and have been happening. During the time in which you had the serious riots or [3:39:53] whatever you want to call them in Minnesota, I believe that you did not reach out for your state law [3:40:02] enforcement to help out federal law enforcement, in part because you're a sanctuary state. That is incorrect. [3:40:11] Tom Holman indicated we are not. I don't know what to tell you, Congressman. We did. We want to [3:40:17] cooperate. That's not what you saw on the streets. Right, right. We did not see cooperation. You saw [3:40:23] ICE agents shooting people in the head. You saw little children being drug out. You saw ICE agents [3:40:29] indiscriminately throwing smoke grenades. And I think what the world saw was peaceful resistance and [3:40:33] a defense of their neighbors. So this is not about immigration reform. This was about an untrained force [3:40:39] that came in, not with the intention of immigration. I would say that you did not have the interaction [3:40:50] between local law enforcement and federal agencies that is routinely seen around the country. Thank you. [3:40:56] Gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes Ms. Brown.