About this transcript: This is a full AI-generated transcript of COURT: 🔥 Self-Inflicted or Murder? Lacy Jolee Boles Trial - Day 2 Morning from Trial TV Live, published November 13, 2026. The transcript contains 27,406 words with timestamps and was generated using Whisper AI.
"Thank you. Hello and welcome to Trial TV Live. I am the squeegee of justice. Thank you so much for joining us today as we are continuing our coverage of Georgia, Georgia versus Lacey Bowles. Day two, we are going to do the morning session and we'll see where we get from there. But settle in, get..."
[00:00:00] Speaker ?: Thank you.
[00:00:30] Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Trial TV Live. I am the squeegee of justice. Thank you so much for joining us today as we are continuing our coverage of Georgia, Georgia versus Lacey Bowles. Day two, we are going to do the morning session and we'll see where we get from there. But settle in, get comfortable and let's get started. Thank you. All right. Welcome in, everybody. Welcome in. How's everybody doing? Thank you for joining us. We are going to pick up on Lacey Bowles. Jenny G. Thank you. And Tucci. Thank you, guys. Really appreciate you guys joining us today. Hey, Gypsy Moon, Kaylee, Shannon. Welcome in, everybody. Welcome in. Grizzly Trial TV Live Grandma. Good to see you. Jenny Lin. How are you doing? Hey, Sugar Sugar. Tammy and KS. Great to see you guys. Thank you guys for joining us. Really do appreciate it. We've got Green Eyed Cat with us. Tabitha. Hello. Global outages. I guess you're talking about the Microsoft, right? Real happy. I may have to start this later because you can't handle normal speed, right? Hey, Bama Green Eyes. Camilla, you're going to go get Bill Muta. Angie. Hello, hello. Welcome in. Christy, the virtual juror. Hello. Melissa. Hopefully it gets a little bit more interesting. I hope so, too. Bama Green Eyes. How are you? Hey, Skylab. Welcome in. Shannon, how are you doing? All right. Melissa's coming in. Hey, Sugar's with us. Let's see. Let me come back up here. Let's see. We have got Kimbers is with us. We've got Tampa Virgo. Treasure Hog. Welcome in. Grab a seat, everybody. Hey, Terry Mitchell. Hello again. Trial Fan. Great to see you. Bonnie, welcome in. We've got Gina with us. Anita. Hello from the UK. Thank you for joining us. Hey, Michelle. Hi, Tao Tao. Anna. It is a marathon today. Hi-9. Missy is back with us as well. Awesome. Hey, Dexter. All right. So let's get to it because it's already 4 o'clock here. So let's get right to it. And hopefully today will be a little bit more... Maybe the pace will be a little bit more up-tempo, I guess. I'm not quite sure what the word is. All right. So here we go. Day 2 morning session.
[00:03:51] Speaker 2: Mr. Lau, how far do you have to drive in the morning and afternoon? I live in Lillburn, Georgia.
[00:03:56] Speaker 3: And it's identified... Yesterday was nice. It wasn't that much. About an hour and 15. Today it was about an hour and 40.
[00:04:03] Speaker 2: Oh, wow. We have some lawyers that come in to try cases and they'll just stay here. Not that we have a, you know, a Ritz or anything that's particularly good to offer. But sometimes folks do that. Yeah. Yeah. I trust my Google Maps today. It took me kind of over the roof and through the woods. And I realized when I got on the interstate, there was a big wreck behind me. Interstate's scary. Sometimes, you know, well-laid plans don't work because there's a wreck or something. So I turn that Google on everywhere I go because if you don't, you end up in something you want to know. I should have done. That's right. All right. I'm told the jury is here. Are y'all ready? Ready to stay? Ready. Okay. Let's have them back. Good morning and welcome back. Thank you for being here promptly. At this point, I'm going to invite the state to call another witness.
[00:06:17] Speaker 4: Thank you, Your Honor. Please support the state calls Michael Logan. Michael Logan. Thank you.
[00:06:23] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:06:52] Speaker 2: Good morning, sir. Good morning, sir.
[00:07:05] Speaker ?: Good morning, sir.
[00:07:05] Speaker 2: If you want to make a standing, raise your right hand and receive an oath. Do you swear or affirm a testimony? I'm going to give you the truth.
[00:07:09] Speaker ?: I'm going to be the truth.
[00:07:09] Speaker 2: I'm going to give you the truth or the truth or nothing but the truth, so help you out. And if you use that soon, can you use the microphone?
[00:07:15] Speaker 4: Michael Logan. Yes. All right, sir. How are you employed now today? I own a landscaping business. You work around here in Paulding and the surrounding area? Yes. How long have you done that, sir? Six years. What's your age, if you don't mind me? 35. Okay, sir. At some point around, if I can orient you to 2019, Christmas time, holiday,
[00:07:45] Speaker 5: date of 2019. How are you employed at that time? Metro, land ambulance, paramedic. Okay. Tell me the difference, please, the jury, please. What's the difference, paramedic, and the term called EMT? EMT is like the entry level into emergency medical services. It's like a year-long school. Paramedic's about another year and a half school. Just more advanced. Can provide basic or advanced life
[00:08:15] Speaker 4: support as opposed to EMT or just basic life support. All right. And forgive me, I had it backwards. Okay. Because I don't know. So when you finished high school, did you go to any college, medical training in college? I just went to Chattahoochee Tech for EMT. Okay. You went straight to EMT school. And so is it, do you accomplish your paramedic certification first and then go on further? So I did EMT basic first. Yes. And then I got hired at Metro and they have their own paramedic program and I went through their paramedic program. And you said about two and a half total years of destruction? Yes. All right, sir. So tell the jury, please, what your day-to-day operations or your duties would be on the job around that time around that time around that time around that time around that time around that time period, 2019 as a paramedic program?
[00:09:06] Speaker 5: We work full 24-hour shifts. We were constantly on call for the 24 hours for 911 calls through our dispatch.
[00:09:19] Speaker 4: 24 hours on and then it kind of... 48 off. 48 off. 48 off. What was your geographic area that you had to cover around that time?
[00:09:27] Speaker 5: We had a station and we covered... The station I was at that night was on Ridge Road, but we were subject to run any call in the county.
[00:09:39] Speaker 4: Okay. So you're... Are you limited by county jurisdiction then? You wouldn't go to Douglas or...
[00:09:45] Speaker 5: Metro had Cobb County. They still do. And we would run calls in Cobb as well if we were closer than a different unit.
[00:09:52] Speaker 4: And maybe over in the West Cobb or Southwest Cobb or something like that, closer to here. Yes. All right, sir. Did you get an opportunity to have a call that evening to respond to an area of 34, 33, 34 brain neural drop, brain neural court? Yes, sir. How did you get that call?
[00:10:12] Speaker 5: We were actually on a different call and got... I believe we got canceled or got a refusal. I believe it was a car wreck. It was actually on Ridge Road. I heard the call go out. We left that call and went to the Bray Mill call.
[00:10:27] Speaker 4: When you say we were on a call but it got canceled, you say that somebody just refused the services?
[00:10:32] Speaker 5: Right. The patient did not want to go to the hospital, so we left.
[00:10:36] Speaker 4: So you say you don't want to go to the hospital. Are you driving a medical ambulance there?
[00:10:42] Speaker 5: Correct. My EMT drives and I was in the passenger seat.
[00:10:46] Speaker 4: Okay. Anybody else on board at any evening on your shift? Is it common for just you two to be in the ambulance at most times?
[00:10:57] Speaker 5: Yes, sir. Sometimes we'd have what they call a third rider, a student, or a new hire, but we did not have any of that that night.
[00:11:06] Speaker 4: When you say you got a call, tell me how that works. Do you just hear it on the radio? Correct. Okay, so you heard. What did you hear?
[00:11:18] Speaker 5: They dispatched a person with a gunshot wound. Obviously, that's pretty high priority, so we went lights and sirens. And I do remember on the way, they said it was a possible suicide attempt And to stage, which means wait outside the neighborhood or wherever you feel safe to let law enforcement clear the scene before we go in.
[00:11:42] Speaker 4: All right, and let me show you something that's been marked and admitted into evidence already. This will be State's Exhibit 4. If I can show you State's Exhibit 4. May I approach it with us, please? Do you recognize State's Exhibit 4 at all? I know it's been a long time, sir.
[00:12:02] Speaker 5: Yes, sir.
[00:12:03] Speaker 4: What is State's Exhibit 4, please?
[00:12:05] Speaker 5: That's the residence we responded to.
[00:12:08] Speaker 4: Okay, so you still have a memory of how it looked that evening. Do you know what time you may have? Approximately what time you may have went to Bridenville Court, 83 Bridenville Court?
[00:12:19] Speaker 5: I believe it was after midnight, somewhere around there.
[00:12:22] Speaker 4: Early morning hours. Yes, sir. So, when you arrived, you said you had a stage first, or your instructor's a stage. What does that mean?
[00:12:32] Speaker 5: Like I said, basically, we find somewhere that we feel safe away from the scene since it was a gunshot wound. You know, we don't know what's going on. We have to wait for Sheriff's Department to call a code 4, or the scene is safe for us to enter.
[00:12:49] Speaker 4: Is that a standard protocol?
[00:12:50] Speaker 5: Yes. On a call like that, yes.
[00:12:53] Speaker 4: So, did you receive the code 4, signal 4, to proceed on? Yes, sir. Do you know how long you staged before you were able to get the signal 4?
[00:13:02] Speaker 5: I don't remember the exact time. I knew it was several minutes.
[00:13:07] Speaker 4: Did you eventually make your way to that home in the States Exhibit Court at 83 Bridenville Court?
[00:13:14] Speaker 5: Yes, sir.
[00:13:15] Speaker 4: Okay. Were there law enforcement officers already there?
[00:13:19] Speaker 5: Correct. Yes.
[00:13:20] Speaker 4: Were there fire officials already there?
[00:13:22] Speaker 5: There was a – I believe it was a battalion chief. He had a white uniform on. Typically, the firemen wear like a blue uniform. And I believe he canceled the fire truck that was staging with us. Okay. So, they left and we went in.
[00:13:41] Speaker 4: All right. And can you describe to the jury, is this a home that's on a main road like Ridge Road or is this often a subdivision?
[00:13:48] Speaker 5: It was just inside a subdivision, I believe.
[00:13:51] Speaker 4: And you would have staged, I guess, somewhere just outside? Yeah, outside. Yes, sir. And you say that there was a fire truck on the way or apparatus staging with you. What was that? Correct.
[00:14:01] Speaker 5: It was like a fire engine or possibly a rescue through the fire department.
[00:14:07] Speaker 4: All right. And you say that that battalion chief gets canceled signal for the fire apparatus. Do you know why?
[00:14:13] Speaker 5: Because – I'm assuming he was already there. Okay.
[00:14:19] Speaker 4: I'll stop you. Don't assume. Okay. No. Okay. Did you hear anything over the radio, though, that caused you to believe – that changed the nature of the scene as you knew it when you first arrived – first went out to it?
[00:14:31] Speaker 5: Yes, sir. Our dispatcher came over the radio and said we were clear for code 4 to enter the scene and the patient was signal 48, which means DOA or deceased on arrival.
[00:14:45] Speaker 4: All right. And when did you – when you're staging, when do you get the signal 48 on your way to the home or you're still staging?
[00:14:54] Speaker 5: We were staging and we got the signal 48, as they said, come on in. It's code 4.
[00:15:01] Speaker 4: Okay. So at that point, you've got signal 48. The person's not, I guess, revivable. Correct. I don't know the word you would use. Yes, sir. That's my word, I guess. So how, if in any way, how does that change your approach to the scene as you enter?
[00:15:17] Speaker 5: I still – you know, I'm still a paramedic, so I still need to go in and review the patient. But to me, the SO or Sheriff's Office and the Battalion Chief are medically trained as well. So they've already looked at the patient, obviously. So in my mind, he was deceased beyond resuscitation.
[00:15:47] Speaker 4: Let me show you another photograph, sir. It's already been admitted into evidence. See if you remember this, sir. I'm going to show you what's been admitted into evidence already as State's Exhibit – I've got to have my glasses. That's not good. Sorry about that. State's Exhibit 30. If I can show you State's Exhibit 30, please may approach? Yes, sir. May approach opposing counsel? Yes, sir. Thank you. State's Exhibit 30. Yes, Peter. Sir, let me show you State's Exhibit 30, and I'm just going to ask you if you recognize that at all, sir. Yes. All right. What is that, sir?
[00:16:24] Speaker 5: It's the victim that was on the scene.
[00:16:28] Speaker 4: Do you believe that State's Exhibit 30 is accurate to what you saw? Does it jog your memory and look like what you saw when you went in there?
[00:16:37] Speaker 5: Yes, sir.
[00:16:38] Speaker 4: Do you remember at all coming in and having to go down some steps or anything? Yes, sir. Into a basement? Yes, sir. So when you get there and you have this Signal 48, unfortunately, it means your services aren't going to – well, you're still going to do your job, but you're going to approach it a little differently, I guess. So what do you do when you get out there?
[00:16:59] Speaker 5: So when we first walk in the door, obviously, we sign like a log to go in. Downstairs is to the right. Upstairs is to the left. The sheriff's department's there saying he's downstairs to the left. Like, go down the stairs, he's to the left. So me and my partner, and I believe a sheriff's deputy was either already down there or came in with us. I saw – immediately saw the patient laying there, not moving, not responding.
[00:17:31] Speaker 4: Okay. Do you tell the jury what you do then or do you administer any kind of life-saving efforts just to be absolutely sure?
[00:17:40] Speaker 5: I walk up to the patient and there's obviously a bunch of blood around his head and on his face. At that point, our protocols say that if someone has sustained a life-threatening injury to a vital organ, that we do not attempt CPR. He was obviously not breathing or moving. He had a good bit of blood, and I guess coagulated blood around his head, from what I remember.
[00:18:10] Speaker 4: Are you familiar with some kind of MARSH device?
[00:18:13] Speaker ?: No.
[00:18:14] Speaker 4: Okay. Do you ever attach a plastic device over the chest cavity to relieve pressure from stab wounds or shooting wounds?
[00:18:24] Speaker 5: We just call that an occlusive dressing. Okay. Did you do that here? No. And why not? I didn't see any injuries or anything to the chest. It just looked like all around his head.
[00:18:35] Speaker 4: Okay. And did the patient appear to be beyond all recesses? Yes. Yes. Yes. Based on your training and knowledge? Correct. If I may approach opposing counsel, please, and show what's been admitted in the evidence. It states it's 50-5-0. Thank you.
[00:18:50] Speaker ?: May I approach the witness to this?
[00:18:50] Speaker 4: Sir, let me show you what's been admitted already in the evidence. Let me actually show it to you, sir, on the projector. Let me move out of the way.
[00:19:00] Speaker ?: Do you remember seeing this, sir? Yes, sir.
[00:19:00] Speaker 4: Yes, sir.
[00:19:01] Speaker ?: Thank you, sir.
[00:19:01] Speaker 4: Just for the record. Just for the record, obviously.
[00:19:03] Speaker ?: I'm going to move out of the way. I'm going to move out of the way. I'm going to move out of the way.
[00:19:03] Speaker 4: I'm going to move out of the way. Do you remember, sir, on the scene, just for the record, states exhibit 50 on the overhead projector. Let me move out of the way. Do you remember seeing this, sir? Yes, sir. Just for the record, obviously, I'm pointing at states exhibit 50, but the court court's taking everything down. So tell me what I'm pointing at here as you remember it.
[00:19:39] Speaker 5: The revolver.
[00:19:40] Speaker 4: Do you remember seeing a weapon inside that room? Yes. So, obviously, when you go to scenes as a paramedic, I'm assuming, do you have to frequently interact with police?
[00:19:53] Speaker 5: Correct.
[00:19:54] Speaker 4: Yes. You don't have to, unfortunately, enter into violent crime scenes. Yes. Are you trained at all about how, if in any way, you need to preserve or maintain the integrity of a potential crime scene?
[00:20:07] Speaker 5: Yes. It obviously was a potential crime scene, so in my mind, I'm trying to walk as careful as I can around the body. I don't, you know, I don't touch anything that I don't have to.
[00:20:20] Speaker 4: Okay. Did you touch, did you move this fire line? No. No. And were you, and you talked about to the jury, and thank you, but you talked about what you did, but what's your partner doing at this point?
[00:20:31] Speaker 5: He's, I believe he was behind me, and we just looked over the body together, kind of agreed on everything, and then we walked back upstairs.
[00:20:43] Speaker 4: Do you know how long you were down in that basement, sir, if you had to just estimate? An hour or ten minutes?
[00:20:49] Speaker 5: Less than ten minutes. Okay.
[00:20:51] Speaker 4: Okay. Did you, did you move anything else? If you can zoom out, Mr. Burke, just anything else in that basement, did you move anything?
[00:21:01] Speaker 5: No, sir.
[00:21:02] Speaker 4: Do you see this here? I'm pointing at, obviously, I think on State's Exhibit 50, what's a, I'm sorry, what's a McDonald's back down to the left knee of the patient? Did you move that? No, sir. Do you remember walking in there and then tripping over anything or kicking anything, like a McDonald's cup?
[00:21:22] Speaker 5: No, sir.
[00:21:23] Speaker 4: Okay. Um, did you, do you notice, do you remember anything about any kind of particular smell or odor at all?
[00:21:31] Speaker 5: Um, like the smell of blood, like the iron smell, and also alcohol, like liquor, beer.
[00:21:44] Speaker 4: Okay. Um, now you've come, you've come down there and you've, you've spent less than ten, fewer than ten minutes down there, now what do you do with your partner?
[00:21:56] Speaker 5: Um, the Sheriff's Department said the, um, we might have another patient upstairs, the victim's wife. Um, you could hear her upstairs crying. Um, so they said she might need medical attention, so we left that scene and went upstairs to the living room area where she was.
[00:22:15] Speaker 4: Okay. Did you, um, ever have a chance to evaluate her medically? Yes. Can you tell the, did you have an opportunity to view, you know, just look at her, view her? Yes. Can you tell the jury, do you remember if you know about her clothing at all?
[00:22:28] Speaker 5: Um, I did notice some blood on her clothing and hands and arms. It was kind of dark in there, but fast forward to in the ambulance, I did see a little better with the lights on.
[00:22:42] Speaker 4: So, um, did you, do you have an opportunity to see it very well inside when it was dark or was it better in the ambulance?
[00:22:49] Speaker 5: Ambulance, yes sir.
[00:22:50] Speaker 4: And you said that she had some blood on her. Did you tell the jury, um, more detail about what you saw? Did you talk about blood in a horror movie?
[00:22:59] Speaker 5: No, it was more like smeared, dried up blood. It wasn't the time, I don't think, you know.
[00:23:05] Speaker 4: All right, sir. And when you got close to her, um, did you have an opportunity to get somewhat close to her? Yes. When you got close to her, are you overwhelmed with the smell of iron at that point with blood? Is it in any way? Yes, you're leading the room. Do you smell a lot of blood on her right next to her when you got up close to her? I don't recall. Okay. If you did, would that, might be something that stuck in your head like when you saw the deceitant? Yes. Okay. All right. So, she's upset. Is that fair? Yes. Tell the jury just in your own words what her doing was, please.
[00:23:42] Speaker 5: Um, crying. I would say inconsolable at that time. We finally got her calmed down enough to answer some questions and agree to go to the hospital with us because she was what I would describe as a panic attack.
[00:23:56] Speaker 4: Okay. Was she able to, and I don't know if you gave her any commands or asked her any questions, was she able to follow what you were saying?
[00:24:04] Speaker 5: I believe so. She answered simple, with simple answers to pretty simple questions.
[00:24:11] Speaker 4: Do you see insurer up there? Yes. Okay. And then did, did you and your partner then eventually transport this defendant to the hospital? We did. And at that point, I'm assuming, I shouldn't assume, at that point is your duty really over once you turn her over to hospital personnel?
[00:24:28] Speaker 5: Yes. We give the personnel a report, a verbal report, and they sign our PCR patient care report to take over patient care. Okay.
[00:24:39] Speaker 4: Is anything about your duties or your responsibilities, sir, to preserve evidence? Is that your responsibility?
[00:24:46] Speaker 5: No, if I, I feel like if I see something, you know, we would tell SO or Sheriff's Office, but, you know, they, they were with the patient as well, so.
[00:24:59] Speaker 4: Okay. Let me show you what's been invented into evidence and marked this state's exhibit 200. May I approach the, may I approach the closing council, please? Let me put this back real quick, Mr. Burke first. Let me put this back before it gets out of order. State's 50. Let me go back. Let's put this back a little bit. And now it will show, publish, may I publish to the jury state's exhibit 200. Thank you. If you would just publish the first page, a board portion of that. And then if you could zoom in a little bit, please, sir. This is state's exhibit 200. Do you, oh, that's too far. That's too far. Let's go out a little bit. Okay. Okay. Right there. That'd be great. Do you see, sir, on state's exhibit 200, where it says Metro right here?
[00:25:55] Speaker 5: Yes, sir.
[00:25:56] Speaker 4: And you've got a screen right front, I hope. And do you see your name? Yes, sir. Is that your name's signature? Yes, sir. And then time in, what does that say?
[00:26:06] Speaker 5: It looks like one o'clock.
[00:26:08] Speaker 4: So zero, 100 hours, I guess, right? Yes, sir. And you left at 1:10?
[00:26:14] Speaker 5: As far as I remember, yes, sir. Okay.
[00:26:17] Speaker 4: And you see down a little bit farther, it says fire. Yes, sir.
[00:26:21] Speaker 5: Steve Garner?
[00:26:22] Speaker 4: Yes, sir.
[00:26:23] Speaker 5: Okay.
[00:26:24] Speaker 4: But you said they were there, fire officials were there when you arrived already.
[00:26:30] Speaker 5: I did see him, his truck, his apparatus, and I saw him at least on the front porch. He was there. All right, sir.
[00:26:40] Speaker ?: All right, sir. All right, sir. All right, sir. All right, sir.
[00:26:41] Speaker 4: All right, sir.
[00:26:42] Speaker ?: All right, sir. All right, sir. All right, sir. All right, sir. All right, sir. All right, sir. All right, sir. All right, sir. All right, sir. All right, sir. All right, sir. All right, sir. All right, sir. All right, sir. All right, sir.
[00:26:57] Speaker 2: That's all I have. Thank you. Mr. Logan, good morning.
[00:27:00] Speaker ?: Good morning. My name is Raymond Lael. I, along with Mr. Steele, represent Lacey Bowles in this case. I just have a few questions. Sure. Thank you. Mr. Logan, good morning. Good morning. My name is Raymond Lael.
[00:27:05] Speaker 3: I, along with Mr. Steele, represent Lacey Bowles in this case. I just have a few questions. Sure. Thank you. So, when you went down, when you went into the house, finally after you were staged, how many people were downstairs when you walked down the stairs with your partner?
[00:27:44] Speaker 5: Like I said, there was a sheriff's deputy. I can't remember if he was already downstairs or walked with us, but I don't recall anybody like a bunch of people in the room. It was the victim and possibly the SO deputy. Okay.
[00:28:00] Speaker 3: But you indicated when you walked down there, of course, you did not do any CPR because someone had already told you it was a code 48, I believe you indicated.
[00:28:14] Speaker 5: Between that and, you know, physically looking at the victim with the blood and the wound, he was not breathing, so we did not provide any life-saving measures. Okay.
[00:28:29] Speaker 3: Fair enough. Is it common for you as an EMT, you were an EMT at the time, correct? EMT paramedic. Okay. Yeah. Okay. To generate a report with regard to a call like this? Yes. Okay. Did you generate such a report? Yes. Okay. Do you have it? Not on me, no. Okay. Did you ever provide that report? Were you ever asked to provide that report to the prosecution?
[00:28:58] Speaker 5: No. I got it from Metro, but I never was asked to provide it to anybody. I got it emailed to me just to review it, but I never was told to give it to anybody. Okay.
[00:29:13] Speaker 3: So is this a report that you filled out yourself? Yes. Okay. Is it just a handwritten report that you filled out?
[00:29:20] Speaker 5: Yeah, it's on a computer, like a laptop we do after the call. Okay.
[00:29:25] Speaker ?: All right.
[00:29:36] Speaker 3: So it looks like from the login sheet that you were there approximately 10 minutes. Is that, does that seem correct?
[00:29:45] Speaker 5: In fact, in my mind, I felt like I was there longer, but that, I mean, that could be accurate. I'm not sure. Okay.
[00:29:54] Speaker 3: Because as you indicated, you stayed there for a while. Yes. You were told it was okay to go in, you go down, and then you go upstairs to interact with Ms. Bowles. Yes. Okay. And I'm correct, Ms. Bowles was cooperative with you, correct, during that time?
[00:30:13] Speaker 5: For the most part, yeah. Like I said, she was pretty inconsolable, but cooperative. Okay.
[00:30:20] Speaker 3: Would you say she was hysterical at times? Yes. Okay. And were there other people with her, consoling her by the time you got there?
[00:30:30] Speaker 5: Yes. There was a couple of sheriff deputies upstairs. I believe the battalion chief I spoke about earlier was up there, and then I'm assuming it was a family member was with her as well.
[00:30:42] Speaker 3: Fair enough. So backing up a little bit, when you got the word, well, first of all, you get a code 4 that it's okay to go on scene. Then you're on scene, and then you get the code 48, which pretty much indicates the person is deceased. Correct. You don't know who was down there with Mr. Akers before you got there to determine that he was deceased, do you? I do not. And you don't know what that person did or didn't do, do you? Yes, sir. You don't know if they touched him. You don't know if they checked for his pulse. You don't know what happened because you weren't there. Correct. And there was no body camera back then in 2019 for at least the Pauly County Sheriff's Office. Did you guys have the body worn camera back then or no?
[00:31:29] Speaker 5: No, sir.
[00:31:30] Speaker 3: Okay. Now, you testified earlier that there was blood on her clothing. Yes. Okay. And I think you said it was smeared. It wasn't dripping with blood, but it was blood visibly on her clothing. Correct. Now, it's not your job to preserve evidence in the case. You're not law enforcement, correct? Correct. Okay. Did you ever hear law enforcement come to her and ask her about her clothing? No, sir. Okay. Ask about preserving her clothing? No, sir. I believe you testified earlier that she was having a panic attack. Yes, sir. Is that something you guys are trained to recognize when somebody's having a panic attack? Yes. That's something that in your education you're trained, correct? Yes, sir.
[00:32:45] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:32:46] Speaker 3: So at some point you left the house and did you escort her down to the ambulance? Yes. She walked with us to the ambulance. Okay. And she was – do you recall who requested that she go to the hospital? Is that a determination you guys made or is it a determination that law enforcement made?
[00:33:12] Speaker 5: I believe it was kind of a joint determination. We – you know, the kids were there. I told her, let's get you out of this environment. Let's get you some help. I believe it's her mom. Okay. Let her take care of the kids and she agreed.
[00:33:25] Speaker 3: Okay. So you felt she needed some medical attention more than that was there at the scene? Yes. At the hospital? Correct.
[00:33:33] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:33:34] Speaker 3: And she is loaded – I'm assuming she's loaded into the back of the ambulance, correct? Yes, sir. Is she laid down? Is she on a gurney, let's say?
[00:33:44] Speaker 5: She's on a gurney, seat belted onto a gurney.
[00:33:47] Speaker 3: Okay. When did she get seat belted onto the gurney? As soon as we got her into the ambulance and she sat down on the gurney. Okay. Fair enough. Now, I know that probably it's not always allowed, but did you all allow her mother to ride with her? No. She stayed at the residence. Okay. So in the ambulance now, we've got you, we've got the driver, and we've got Ms. Bowles. Yes. Are you back there with her or are you in the passenger seat? I'm in the back with her. Okay. You're in the back with her. Anything remarkable about that ride from there to the hospital?
[00:34:17] Speaker 5: No. Like I said, she's answered basic questions as far as her medical history, if she took medications, you know, just my history taking that I have to do for my report. And the only thing she said to me other than that was why. She kept saying why, looking me in the eyes and saying why. And I just, you know, obviously I don't have an answer, so. Okay. Well, fair enough.
[00:34:43] Speaker 3: Appreciate you consoling her. Okay. So you, and I'm assuming you're radioing to the hospital, hey, we have someone en route. Yes. Here's what's going on. That's just protocol, right? Yes. Okay. So you arrive at the hospital and which one is it? Well Star Paulding. Okay. And so I'm assuming you go to the emergency entrance or your special entrance that you have? Correct. Okay. And does personnel from the hospital come out and open the doors and assist you with taking her out?
[00:35:14] Speaker 5: So we keep her on the gurney. We take her out of the ambulance and wheel her in. We have badges to get in the hospital. We talk to the charge nurse, tell her, you know, we're Metro so and so, this is our patient. And they assign us a room. And we transfer her from the gurney straight onto the bed of her room. Okay. So she never walked, like got out and walked from the ambulance. Okay.
[00:35:40] Speaker 3: All right. Was any law enforcement on the scene when you got there or no? No. Okay. And so after you did that, you put her on her bed.
[00:35:50] Speaker 5: Then at that point, what do you do? The nurse comes in and I gave him a verbal report, a vital, you know, just an overview of what happened. And he signs my patient care report, assuming patient care from me. Okay.
[00:36:11] Speaker 3: And your patient care report, is that the report that you generate about this whole case? Or is that something you do later when you, you know, get on your computer and do a report about what happened?
[00:36:22] Speaker 5: So I finished the report before we left the hospital, the ambulance bay. Okay. So I usually try to get them done as soon as the call is over. Okay. Okay.
[00:36:34] Speaker 3: And that's your handwritten report? Yes. Okay. Fair enough. One second.
[00:36:41] Speaker ?: Mr. Logan, thank you. Yes, sir.
[00:36:42] Speaker 4: When you went down to the basement, did you see the thing, like, I know there's a thing that you can, like, guard and you can do mouth to mouth and use the guard on somebody so you're not making lip contact? Did you use that?
[00:37:02] Speaker 5: Did we use that? Is that what you're saying?
[00:37:04] Speaker 4: Have you seen that before?
[00:37:05] Speaker 5: Yeah. We use a, it's called a bag valve. We never use the mouthpiece. We just, I don't know.
[00:37:12] Speaker 4: There's some kind of, it separates the, the. Correct. The first responder to the patient.
[00:37:16] Speaker 5: Yes.
[00:37:17] Speaker 4: Do you see anything like that on the floor? No. Do you see any gauze pads or any kind of medical, medical products like somebody else had been there first and tried to do what they could? No. No. No medical products at all?
[00:37:30] Speaker 5: No, sir.
[00:37:31] Speaker 4: Did you, did the scene look like it had been chaotically disturbed to you when you got there, like there had been a fluidity of activity there?
[00:37:38] Speaker 5: No, sir. Yes, sir.
[00:37:40] Speaker 4: Sometimes you do, do you see that?
[00:37:42] Speaker 5: Yes, sir.
[00:37:43] Speaker 4: And finally, sir, you remember the defendant saying, why, why, why, is that what you remember? Yes, sir. Okay. Do you remember her saying ever, why, why did he do it? You don't remember? No, sir. And do you remember her ever saying, for example, why, why have I done this? No, sir. I don't remember that. Just why?
[00:38:04] Speaker 5: Just why?
[00:38:05] Speaker 4: No further questions. May I take the exhibit now, please, your honor. Thank you. Read it. Okay.
[00:38:12] Speaker 3: I know you don't have your report here, but quite frankly, if my client had said, why did I do this? That would be in your reporting. You remember that, right? Correct.
[00:38:21] Speaker 6: Anything else for this one?
[00:38:22] Speaker ?: Not for the state, thank you. All right. Do you need an excuse?
[00:38:25] Speaker 2: No objection. All right. So, here we go. Thank you very much. How's everybody doing? Good? All right. Next one. State calls Amanda Carter, please. Thank you, sir. Good. All right. Next one. State calls Amanda Carter, please. Good morning. Welcome. I'll swear you can raise your hand until you know the page you split up from the test when we got here and that will be the truth. The whole truth. Nothing but the truth.
[00:39:40] Speaker 4: Yes, sir. I do. Good morning, Amanda. If you please tell the jury your name. Amanda Carter. How do you spell it, Amanda Carter? Yes, sir. How are you employed, please?
[00:39:53] Speaker 7: I presently work with family on a full-time basis, providing customer service for their businesses. And I'm part-time with Harrelson.
[00:40:04] Speaker 4: All right. Let me just break that down into two different little parts. You said family. First off, you're talking about like a name of a company.
[00:40:12] Speaker 7: No, sir. Family businesses.
[00:40:13] Speaker 4: Okay. So you work with family businesses.
[00:40:15] Speaker 7: Yes. My family's businesses. What type of business are they in? We have a vending business, landscape business, and I provide customer service for those.
[00:40:24] Speaker 4: Okay. Where are you based on that?
[00:40:27] Speaker 7: Out of Paulding.
[00:40:28] Speaker 4: All right. And then you said that part-time you work for Harrelson. I'm a citizen of Harrelson County. Yes, sir. Can you tell the jury, please, what you do for Harrelson County?
[00:40:38] Speaker 7: I'm part-time, so anything the sheriff or his command staff deem necessary, and I respond as call.
[00:40:45] Speaker 4: What is your area of expertise that allows you to work with Harrelson County?
[00:40:49] Speaker 7: So I fall under the investigations division.
[00:40:53] Speaker 4: Criminal investigation?
[00:40:54] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[00:40:55] Speaker 4: All right. And let me take you back. Are you post-certified law enforcement officer?
[00:40:59] Speaker 7: Yes, sir, I am.
[00:41:00] Speaker 4: You are. Can you tell the jury if you were working in law enforcement at all in December of 2019?
[00:41:06] Speaker 7: Yes, sir, I was.
[00:41:07] Speaker 4: Can you tell the jury, please, what agency you were working with at that time?
[00:41:10] Speaker 7: At that time, I was with Paulding County Sheriff's Office.
[00:41:13] Speaker 4: Were you full-time?
[00:41:14] Speaker 7: Yes, sir. I think I'd gone to part-time at that point. I'm sorry.
[00:41:20] Speaker 4: Were you ever full-time with the sheriff? Yes, sir. When did you start at the Paulding County Sheriff's Office?
[00:41:25] Speaker 7: I believe it was in 2008.
[00:41:29] Speaker 4: So you had over a decade of time with that agency by the time December of holiday time of 2019. Yes, sir. Okay. Can you tell the jury what your duties were when you first started?
[00:41:41] Speaker 7: When I first started, I was the evidence custodian I received and maintained any evidence turned into the sheriff's office.
[00:41:49] Speaker 4: Okay. So who would bring you that evidence for you to maintain it in law enforcement?
[00:41:55] Speaker 7: Any deputies or detectives, any evidence they obtained on scene, they would return it to the sheriff's office and submit it to be maintained in the evidence room.
[00:42:04] Speaker 4: Was it common for some of that evidence to go down to the caterers or crime lab? Yes, sir. Did you ever maintain evidence or receive evidence back from the crime lab?
[00:42:12] Speaker 7: Yes, sir, on a regular basis.
[00:42:14] Speaker 4: But tell the jury, please, and I don't know either, does the Paulding County Sheriff's Office, did you work in their own evidence location, storage location?
[00:42:23] Speaker 7: Yes, sir. Their evidence location is within the sheriff's office.
[00:42:27] Speaker 4: All right. At 2019, that's, I guess, the old location, or was that still over here by the grass?
[00:42:33] Speaker 7: I don't remember what year they moved. I'm sorry.
[00:42:36] Speaker 4: Okay. So you said it was just within the sheriff's office. Yes. What does the storage area look like? Where do you keep all this stuff?
[00:42:44] Speaker 7: It's a secure room that only the evidence custodians have access to, and it's only unlocked when they're present.
[00:42:52] Speaker 4: When the custodians are present?
[00:42:53] Speaker 7: Yes. Okay. No one can access it without the evidence custodian, but they're not even given access to the entire room. They can come into the entry point to speak to the evidence custodian and to turn over or pick up any evidence, but they have no access to the evidence storage.
[00:43:12] Speaker 4: The deputies and the detective?
[00:43:13] Speaker 7: Correct.
[00:43:15] Speaker 4: So, let's just say a deputy comes in, a detective, a deputy comes in, and he has this right hand, and he wants to put it into evidence. He would come in the, he or she would come in the initial part of the evidence room and meet with you?
[00:43:30] Speaker 7: There are lockers that they can be submitted in. Depending on the day, the time, the circumstances, they would either put it into the locker and log it into a book, or they may have the ability to hand it over to the evidence custodian at that point.
[00:43:47] Speaker 4: And would the custodian then log in?
[00:43:50] Speaker 7: So, there's a property and evidence record that any changes in the chain of custody would be maintained on. So, the evidence custodian would sign the property sheet showing that they had received it from the deputy, and at that point, they would enter it into the system that keeps an inventory of everything in the evidence room.
[00:44:09] Speaker 4: And how is that inventory kept? How do you know, if I put this pen into evidence, does it receive any kind of number?
[00:44:16] Speaker 8: It does.
[00:44:16] Speaker 4: It does?
[00:44:17] Speaker 8: It does.
[00:44:17] Speaker 4: Does it receive a specific storage place where it's going to be?
[00:44:21] Speaker 8: Yes, sir, it does.
[00:44:23] Speaker 4: And please, you told me that that area is restricted. Any deputy or detective can go in there, did you say, as long as they're with a custodian?
[00:44:30] Speaker 7: They don't have access to the entire room. They can access a point of the room where the evidence custodian is, but they have no ability to reach or access evidence that is in storage.
[00:44:42] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:44:43] Speaker 4: Evidence, has it been your experience that sometimes evidence could be affected by? Temperature, room conditions, air conditions? Yes. Et cetera. Was this a room that was temperature-controlled, humidity-controlled to preserve evidence?
[00:44:57] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[00:45:02] Speaker 4: So, you started out as evidence custodian or evidence technician, receiving evidence, cataloging evidence, storing evidence. Did your role ever change with the Pauly County Sheriff's Office?
[00:45:13] Speaker 7: Yes, sir, I believe it was 2016, if I'm not mistaken, that I had transferred over to the technical services unit for crime scene.
[00:45:25] Speaker 4: Okay, and tell the jury, please, what that means.
[00:45:28] Speaker 7: That's for crime scene processing. Your responsibility is to provide support services for deputies or detectives responding to scenes. You respond as they call you to come out and assist in photographing, collecting evidence, anything that the lead detective deems appropriate at that point.
[00:45:48] Speaker 4: Tell the jury, please, with any kind of training you receive to be able to do that.
[00:45:53] Speaker 7: I believe there's seven classes that you have to take, according to post. There's multiple fingerprint classes, crime scene class, evidence preservation, bloodstain. That's all I remember off the top of my head.
[00:46:11] Speaker 4: Does that require post-certification? It does. To be a crime scene analyst? Yes, sir. Okay, so have you completed your certification in crime scene processing or analysis by December of 2019? Yes, sir. Do you still hold that certification?
[00:46:27] Speaker 9: Yes, sir.
[00:46:29] Speaker 4: Is that something, is that an area, please, that you have to continue to train on and learn about, continuing education?
[00:46:35] Speaker 7: The post requires a minimum every year, but you should always continue your crime scene because technology changes.
[00:46:45] Speaker 4: Have you, as you, with your time from 2016 until even now, with Harrelson County, have you continued to update your knowledge and educate yourself? Yes, sir. Annually with post hours on this area of the law?
[00:46:57] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[00:46:59] Speaker 4: And is that, did you say that's pretty much the same thing you do now with Harrelson crime scene processing?
[00:47:05] Speaker 7: If they need assistance, I respond to anything that they deem necessary. So, they do have a full-time crime scene technician. They actually have an assistant for the crime scene technician as well. So, it would only be in extraordinary circumstances if they would call me for that.
[00:47:22] Speaker 4: But, are you still on their list or their speed dial or whatever? Yes, sir. Okay. When was the last time you went over there?
[00:47:30] Speaker 7: I was over there a few weeks ago and spoke with the sheriff yesterday.
[00:47:34] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:47:35] Speaker 4: All right. So, did you have an opportunity to be called out to an area of Brain Mill Court in Paulding County, Georgia, on or about December 22nd, 2019?
[00:47:47] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[00:47:48] Speaker 4: Specifically, 83 Brain Mill Court. Do you remember going out there?
[00:47:51] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[00:47:51] Speaker 4: Let me show you what's something that's been admitted into evidence of State's Exhibit 4 and see if you just recognize this. May I approach opposing counsel, please? Showing opposing counsel State's Exhibit 4. And may I approach the witness. May I have, let me show you State's Exhibit 4. Do you remember anything about that?
[00:48:13] Speaker 7: This is the exterior of the residence that I responded to.
[00:48:17] Speaker 4: All right. Is that where you were called out then to help out?
[00:48:19] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[00:48:20] Speaker 4: How is it that you would be called out? Who calls you and when would they call you typically?
[00:48:26] Speaker 7: Typically, the lead detective would call. So, you have an on-call detective if it happens after hours. So, patrol would respond. If they see the need for a detective, then they would notify CID that a detective is requested on scene. At that point, the detective would typically notify me if he felt there was a need. He or she. Sorry.
[00:48:52] Speaker 4: Criminal investigations division. Yes, sir. Is that right? Is it common for, in your knowledge, your training, and your experience, is it common for patrol officers, first responder type officers to go processing stuff in the scene?
[00:49:04] Speaker 7: Not typically. No, sir.
[00:49:05] Speaker 4: Is it common for those officers, based on your own observation, your experience, for those officers to have moved and manipulated evidentiary objects by the time you get there? No, sir. Sometimes it might be necessary, I guess.
[00:49:18] Speaker 7: At times it might be necessary, but they are given training that advises them not to.
[00:49:24] Speaker 4: Preservation of a crime scene, what does that mean to you, please?
[00:49:27] Speaker 7: That means so that you don't move anything, you don't touch anything, you don't alter anything. The scene is exactly as it was when responders initially arrived. You don't deposit any DNA, you don't remove any DNA from the scene. You don't alter any evidence so that you can do a thorough investigation of what you see when you arrive.
[00:49:49] Speaker 4: Is that how you're trained?
[00:49:50] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[00:49:50] Speaker 4: Are you trained in preserving a discontamination of a crime scene? Yes, sir. Can you tell the jury what that means?
[00:49:59] Speaker 7: It means when you go into a crime scene, you can leave evidence as easily as you can remove evidence. So you have to err on the side of caution. You should always wear gloves. You should never touch anything or alter anything until the photographs are taken and the investigation has begun. Typically in processing, we place crime scene placards where we see items of evidentiary value and take additional photographs. You want to preserve all of that so you can recreate the scene if necessary.
[00:50:33] Speaker 4: Are you familiar with the crime scene law?
[00:50:35] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[00:50:35] Speaker 4: What is that?
[00:50:38] Speaker 7: When an incident has occurred and they feel like the scene needs to be secured, usually the initial responding deputies will begin a log so they can keep track of anyone that enters or exits the scene.
[00:50:51] Speaker 4: Let me show you again State's Exhibit 200 and I'll blow it up here. I'm showing you specifically page 2 of State's Exhibit 200. If you'll look at that, that's already in evidence. Is that you recognize this type of a sheet?
[00:51:11] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[00:51:12] Speaker 4: And do you see down here where it says, what does that say, where I'm pointing to the left on page 2 of State's Exhibit 200?
[00:51:18] Speaker 10: I can't see where you're pointing. I'm sorry.
[00:51:20] Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm sorry. It's kind of a hard thing to figure out. I'm sorry. So, I did not block anybody. Can you see it now?
[00:51:28] Speaker 7: That is my name.
[00:51:29] Speaker 4: Okay. Did you sign and check in with the crime scene log?
[00:51:32] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[00:51:33] Speaker 4: Now, time in, do you see that as blank? Do you know why?
[00:51:36] Speaker 9: No, sir. I do not.
[00:51:37] Speaker 4: Time out. Can you read that?
[00:51:41] Speaker 9: Appears to be 437. No, 433, I believe.
[00:51:47] Speaker 4: Who called you to the crime scene, please? Do you know who requested you to come out?
[00:51:54] Speaker 7: I don't remember. I could speculate on who I believe it was and who it would typically be, but honestly, I don't recall, sir.
[00:52:02] Speaker 4: That's fine. Do you come out with a truck or what kind of equipment do you take there?
[00:52:08] Speaker 7: So, you're provided with a crime scene van that has any equipment you may need for the scene. Did you come out with that? Yes, sir, I did.
[00:52:17] Speaker 4: Does anybody help you?
[00:52:20] Speaker 7: The lead detective guides you through the scene and makes their request on evidence processing, evidence collection. A lot of times, most of the time, they will assist if you ask them to. Other than that, it's usually the two of you that process the scene.
[00:52:40] Speaker 4: Yeah, two of you. And why I'm asking is I heard you say in Harrelson they'll have an assistant crime scene processor tech. You have somebody helping you.
[00:52:47] Speaker 7: Detective Ogden was there and assisted. I don't recall who else was on scene. I know the coroner was there at one point. She assisted with the portion. Those are the only names I can tell you off the top of my head.
[00:53:01] Speaker 4: But one more would I get into, and thank you for that, but more would I get into is did you have an assistant? No, sir. Okay.
[00:53:07] Speaker 7: No, sir, I did not.
[00:53:08] Speaker 4: And you?
[00:53:09] Speaker 7: No, sir.
[00:53:09] Speaker 4: Okay, that's what I was trying to figure out. Thank you. So, you get there and what do you sign in the crime scene log and what do you do first, please?
[00:53:17] Speaker 7: At that point, I had requested the consent to search or the search warrant, and I had been told that we did not have that at that point. And Detective Ogden had left to obtain that, so I held outside the scene until he obtained the consent to search.
[00:53:35] Speaker 4: Where did you stay until that was?
[00:53:38] Speaker 7: I believe I stayed at my vehicle.
[00:53:40] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:53:40] Speaker 4: Near the home, I guess?
[00:53:41] Speaker 7: Yes, yes, inside of the home, in front of the home.
[00:53:45] Speaker 4: At some point, did you gain a legal entry in the home? Yes, sir. Okay, what's your first order of business when you approach a scene and start processing?
[00:53:54] Speaker 7: I usually walked through the scene and provided all the investigative details that they've obtained to that point. So, that's exactly what we did when we walked in. We evaluated everything in the entryway. It was a split foyer. And we proceeded downstairs to where the victim was. He was located in the floor in a room on the left-hand side.
[00:54:21] Speaker 4: And then, what's your first order of business after you've visually seen the scene as you encounter it? What do you do then when you start? What's your first thing you start doing?
[00:54:34] Speaker 7: The first thing you do is take photographs.
[00:54:36] Speaker 4: Okay.
[00:54:37] Speaker ?: All right.
[00:54:51] Speaker 4: May I approach a closing counsel, please, Your Honor, to show what's been marked for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 169. May I approach a witness, please? Ma'am, let me show you what's been marked for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 169. And I'll ask you to look at that just briefly. When you had a chance to look at it, you know.
[00:55:14] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[00:55:14] Speaker 4: Do you recognize what's depicted in that photograph?
[00:55:17] Speaker 11: Yes, sir, I do.
[00:55:18] Speaker 4: Can you tell, just generally, briefly, what is depicted there?
[00:55:23] Speaker 7: This is a picture of the victim that was deceased in the floor of the room that they had advised me. He was located, I don't know how descriptive you want me to be.
[00:55:38] Speaker 4: That's all in it. How do you recognize that?
[00:55:42] Speaker 7: I recognize it because it was a picture that I had taken at the scene.
[00:55:47] Speaker 4: Okay. Is it fairly, and that's just briefly right now, is that fairly accurately, and fairly inaccurately depict the scene as you encountered it on the surface of 2019? Yes, sir. It does. Do you think there's been any alterations, deletions, or changes to State's Exhibit 169 to make it not representative of what you saw in person then?
[00:56:06] Speaker 9: No, sir.
[00:56:07] Speaker 4: Respectfully move the court to admitted evidence, what's been previously marked for identification purposes on these states, Exhibit 169. No opposition, Your Honor? No, just in it. Thank you. So now you can go in and elaborate just a little bit. Let me publish it to the jury, hopefully. May I publish it, Your Honor? Okay. Let me publish it, ma'am, and then maybe it'll, you can see it hopefully on your monitor there. Is this an accurate description or photograph, a representation photographically of what you encountered that evening at the scene, ma'am?
[00:56:41] Speaker 8: Yes, sir, it is.
[00:56:45] Speaker 4: When you walk into some crime scenes, have you ever encountered a crime scene that you've walked in and it looks like the room has just been really destroyed? There's EMT evidence left behind, life-saving evidence left behind. It's just a whirlwind of chaos and clutter. Have you ever encountered that?
[00:57:05] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[00:57:06] Speaker 4: Did this appear to be that type of crime scene or incident scene to you?
[00:57:10] Speaker 9: No, sir.
[00:57:11] Speaker 4: Did it appear, did you see any life-saving, resuscitated equipment left behind from EMTs or paramedics? Did it look like things had been randomly thrown about or scattered by the time you arrived?
[00:57:25] Speaker 11: No, sir.
[00:57:27] Speaker 4: Would that type of crime scene where things were thrown about, scattered, disturbed before you got there, would that make it more difficult for you to process it?
[00:57:35] Speaker 10: Yes.
[00:57:35] Speaker 4: Does that present its own evidentiary challenges? Yes, sir. Preservation challenges? Yes? Yes, sir. Did you see anything like that here?
[00:57:44] Speaker 7: No, sir.
[00:57:45] Speaker 4: All right. So you're photographing the scene. That's your first order of business. Let me show you what I'll mark for identification purposes only now, please. The state's exhibit, 170. Let me approach opposing counsel, please, and show what I'll mark for identification purposes only as 170, 170.
[00:58:12] Speaker ?: Do you recognize that? Yes, sir.
[00:58:15] Speaker 4: Just briefly, as briefly as you can, what is that?
[00:58:28] Speaker 7: This is a hat and set of keys that were in close proximity to the victim in the floor.
[00:58:34] Speaker 4: How do you recognize that photograph?
[00:58:36] Speaker 7: Because it was a picture that I had taken.
[00:58:38] Speaker 4: Is it fairly accurate if you represent the scene as you encountered it on that day?
[00:58:43] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[00:58:44] Speaker 4: It changes material alterations to legions that make it somehow different than the way you encountered the scene?
[00:58:51] Speaker 8: No, sir.
[00:58:52] Speaker 4: Respectfully, you would report to admitted evidence what's been previously marked for identification purposes only as stated 170. Now, we'll check booching, no objection at all.
[00:59:02] Speaker 2: All right.
[00:59:02] Speaker 4: I'll get to that, but let me show you now what's been marked for identification purposes only as states exhibits, 170 and 171. I can't approach opposing counsel, please. 170, 171. All right. If I may approach the witness, ma'am, let me show you now what's been marked individually as 170 and 171. I'll show you at the same time. Just take a look at both of them. Do you recognize those photographs?
[00:59:55] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[00:59:56] Speaker 4: What are those depicting briefly, generally?
[00:59:58] Speaker 7: They appear to be the same hat and set of keys with a close-up photograph.
[01:00:05] Speaker 4: How do you recognize 170 and 171?
[01:00:08] Speaker 7: They are photographs that I took.
[01:00:10] Speaker 4: Do they accurately and fairly depict the scene as you encountered without any deletions, material, misrepresentations, or changes?
[01:00:16] Speaker 9: Yes, sir.
[01:00:17] Speaker 4: Respectfully, you would report to admitted evidence what's been marked previously for identification purposes only as states exhibit 170 and 171. Same position, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition, no opposition. And then may I publish, please. Yes.
[01:00:29] Speaker 2: Thank you.
[01:00:31] Speaker 4: Let me publish these, all three of them to you, Ms. Carter. First, I want to show you, I'll just go in order. Let me show you 160.
[01:00:45] Speaker 6: So, I'm going to mark this one 170A.
[01:01:05] Speaker 4: So, previously, you'd want to send out, just put 170A. Okay. Okay. It would be 170, 170A, and 171. Let me show you what's been admitted now in evidence as 170, please. Do you remember encountering this at the scene? Seeing this?
[01:01:32] Speaker 11: Yes, sir.
[01:01:33] Speaker ?: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
[01:01:39] Speaker 4: Do you see what this is here to the scene's left off of the left shoulder?
[01:02:09] Speaker 8: A set of keys.
[01:02:11] Speaker 4: And how far did you know that to be from the decedent's body there?
[01:02:16] Speaker 7: I don't recall the exact distance, but it was in close proximity to the victim.
[01:02:22] Speaker 4: What's this here on stage 27?
[01:02:26] Speaker 8: A hat.
[01:02:29] Speaker 4: Were they fairly close to the decedent?
[01:02:33] Speaker 7: Yes, sir, they were.
[01:02:34] Speaker 4: Were the keys fairly close to the decedent? Yes, sir. Did you remove those keys from any pocket or container before you found them right there next to the guy on the floor?
[01:02:44] Speaker 8: No, sir.
[01:02:45] Speaker 4: Do you know anybody that, based on your knowledge of the investigation or the crime scene processing, do you know anybody that could have removed those keys from a pocket or a hoodie or anything else?
[01:02:55] Speaker 8: No, sir.
[01:03:03] Speaker 4: I'm going to show you now, please, if I may publish mail. This is kind of a little bit of a close-up, 171, a close-up of those keys real quickly. So we can see a little bit closer. Would you agree now that this tends to be the decedent's left shoulder?
[01:03:27] Speaker 8: Yes, sir, it is.
[01:03:28] Speaker 4: And then here are some keys, multiple keys. Would you agree to that?
[01:03:32] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:03:33] Speaker 4: What's this appear to be here? I'm sorry. I know you can't see.
[01:03:37] Speaker 10: That's okay.
[01:03:39] Speaker 4: At the very bottom, it's...
[01:03:40] Speaker 7: Spots of blood.
[01:03:41] Speaker 4: ...that looks out of the place.
[01:03:42] Speaker 7: Spots that appear to be blood.
[01:03:44] Speaker 4: And then on 170A, it's in alpha. I want to just orient the jury now, too. It's that same amount. Yeah. So go a little bit higher, Mr. Burke. Yeah. So now I want to orient this. It looks like... Let me turn it this way. Try to match your vantage point from where you took it. It looks like maybe this way. Yeah. So now we're not... Does this accurately depict the distance, those keys, from the decedent's left shoulder?
[01:04:21] Speaker 8: Yes, sir, it does.
[01:04:24] Speaker 4: Is this... What is it? It looks like a bed? I can't tell what that is. Can you?
[01:04:29] Speaker 7: From that photograph, no, sir, I can't.
[01:04:32] Speaker 4: It's got some glare on it. It looks like... I'm sorry, I oriented it the wrong way. Let me show it this way. So can you see now what that might be? There's some kind of glare on it, but this looks like the leg of some furniture.
[01:04:49] Speaker 7: It appears to be, but I can't say with certainty from that photograph.
[01:04:54] Speaker ?: All right.
[01:04:56] Speaker 4: Do you see, if you go up a little, Mr. Berg, do you remember, is this... What is this? That is the firearm. Firearm. Is that the location you noticed it when you arrived on scene?
[01:05:10] Speaker 8: Yes, sir, it is.
[01:05:11] Speaker 4: Have you moved it at all prior to the taking of this program? No, sir. Have you been informed by anybody in law enforcement, UNT, paramedic, anything that it had been moved prior to you arriving in the process at this location?
[01:05:22] Speaker 7: I had been advised that the complainant had been in the room and had touched the victim, but I had not been advised that the firearm had been moved. Thank you.
[01:05:35] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
[01:06:04] Speaker 4: I can please show those in council, what I want, or it is important. This is a close-up of the firearms that you previously showed. Did you take that photograph?
[01:06:59] Speaker 11: Yes, sir.
[01:06:59] Speaker 4: Do you think there's been any changes or misrepresentations, deletions, other than possibly being another copy? Were there any changes that make that not accurate?
[01:07:09] Speaker 11: No, sir.
[01:07:09] Speaker 4: Is that fair and accurate in the depiction of what you saw that evening?
[01:07:12] Speaker 11: Yes, sir.
[01:07:13] Speaker 4: Respectfully moved the court's admitted, Evans, which has been previously marked for identification purposes on the estates. It's at 172. No opposition, Your Honor. Admitted. May I publish, please? Yes, sir. Thank you. Let me ask you some questions about states 172. You mentioned the firearm. What is this, this little placard with a numeral one on it?
[01:07:46] Speaker 7: That is a crime scene marker to identify the first piece of evidence.
[01:07:52] Speaker 2: Okay. Who put that there?
[01:07:54] Speaker 7: I would have put that there. You did? Yes.
[01:07:57] Speaker 4: What's the purpose of it?
[01:07:59] Speaker 7: So that it identifies the piece of evidence being collected and you can refer to it later in your report. It's additional documentation and layout of a crime scene.
[01:08:18] Speaker 3: Thank you.
[01:08:23] Speaker 4: I'm going to provide you with some blood of some bleeds in case you might need those. Thank you. Thank you. May I approach the opposing counsel with moral mark as states exhibit 173, please? Thank you. I may approach you, ma'am, and show what's been previously marked for identification purposes on the estates exhibit 173. Do you recognize that?
[01:09:56] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:09:58] Speaker 4: What is that, please?
[01:09:59] Speaker 7: It is a sealed firearm box.
[01:10:06] Speaker 4: How do you recognize that?
[01:10:07] Speaker 7: I see my handwriting on the front and a description of the firearm.
[01:10:15] Speaker 4: Who put the firearm, who collected the firearm?
[01:10:17] Speaker 8: I did.
[01:10:18] Speaker 4: Who wrote your initials on there, or your name on there?
[01:10:21] Speaker 8: I did.
[01:10:22] Speaker 4: Does the box, the outside box, seem to fairly inaccurately depict the firearm box that you preserved on the night of 12-22-19?
[01:10:32] Speaker 7: With additional labels and evidence tape from GDI, yes, sir, it does.
[01:10:37] Speaker 4: Why is it that, well, I'll ask you when it gets into evidence, but do you think there's been any changes or alterations to the box that make a difference somehow than what you remember being just a vessel to contain the firearm?
[01:10:50] Speaker 7: Other than what I just stated, no, sir.
[01:10:53] Speaker 4: Respectfully move the court to admit in evidence what's been marked previously for identification purposes only in estates exhibit 173. Any objection? Your honor, no. I don't know that. If you'll take these scissors, please, ma'am, and open estates exhibit 173.
[01:11:09] Speaker ?: Thank you.
[01:11:20] Speaker 10: I'm sorry. That's all right.
[01:11:27] Speaker 7: This is not easy to do with scissors.
[01:11:36] Speaker 4: Okay. Before we open it, I want to, may I have published to the jury just the box. You're on there. So this is covered, looks like some kind of tape. Tape, stickers, markings, what would be the reason for this tape on here?
[01:11:53] Speaker 7: To, whoever seals the box would put tape on it as well as their initials showing the box had been sealed. There may also be biohazard tape on it if there's any blood that was identified prior to it being placed in the box.
[01:12:12] Speaker 4: So there's different, looks like there's different color tapes on here. Do you see that?
[01:12:19] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:12:20] Speaker 4: Is it possible that different agencies reviewed the firearm after you boxed it?
[01:12:25] Speaker 7: Different agencies or different departments? Yes, sir.
[01:12:27] Speaker 4: All right. And where was your name on it?
[01:12:30] Speaker 7: My name is listed right there in the details.
[01:12:33] Speaker 4: Okay. So, A. Carter, is that you? Yes, sir. Why would you just put your name on it and would that stick it like that?
[01:12:43] Speaker 7: I put it with a, also the case number and the property and evidence record that corresponds to the evidence that is on the property sheet, the evidence contained in the box.
[01:12:54] Speaker 4: All right. All right. And let me see if you recognize this. Do you see, what is this? I know it's hard to be sealed, but do you see a number here?
[01:13:11] Speaker 7: That is a sticker that is put on by GBI. If they receive an item for testing, they also assign a number so that they can keep track of it.
[01:13:23] Speaker 4: Okay. So, this barcode here, this barcode here, did you put that on there? No, sir. Is that something some other agency might do?
[01:13:37] Speaker 7: GBI.
[01:13:38] Speaker 4: GBI. Now, there's also some information on the lower right side of State's Exhibit 173. If you can talk to the jury about what this means, please.
[01:13:51] Speaker 7: That is the details of the firearm make, model, serial number, and caliber of the firearm that is enclosed in the box.
[01:13:59] Speaker 4: Is that something that you put on this box? Yes, sir. How did you get that information right here?
[01:14:05] Speaker 7: By inspecting the firearm.
[01:14:09] Speaker 4: So, the high standard is the maker and the model is Sintima? Yes, sir. Is that right? Is that .22 caliber?
[01:14:17] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:14:19] Speaker 4: And is that the serial number of the actual weapon itself?
[01:14:22] Speaker 8: Yes, sir, it is.
[01:14:24] Speaker 4: Are weapons or pistols sold in the United States, to your knowledge, required to have serial numbers?
[01:14:30] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[01:14:33] Speaker 4: If you can feel open, State's Exhibit 173, please, published to the jury.
[01:14:40] Speaker 7: This is a revolver. It does have a lock on it. All right.
[01:14:52] Speaker 4: May approach the jury box, please. Is this the revolver that you collected to preserve on 12-22-2019?
[01:15:06] Speaker 11: It appears to be, yes, sir.
[01:15:08] Speaker 4: Does it appear to be in the same and similar fashion that you saw in that evening?
[01:15:13] Speaker 7: Similar, yes.
[01:15:14] Speaker 4: Okay. Did you put a lock on it?
[01:15:16] Speaker 7: No, sir. I did not.
[01:15:17] Speaker 4: So, you wouldn't have put a lock on it with someone along the way for the lock on it?
[01:15:21] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:15:22] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:15:24] Speaker 4: Did you make any changes or alterations to the weapon itself prior to preserving it?
[01:15:28] Speaker 7: Only to remove the ammunition.
[01:15:31] Speaker 4: Okay. So, the revolver, is that right?
[01:15:32] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:15:33] Speaker 4: I believe this is what's called a checkered grip. Do you agree with that as a checkered pattern on the grip itself?
[01:16:05] Speaker 9: It appears to be.
[01:16:06] Speaker 4: Do you see some what might be biological evidence on the grip?
[01:16:13] Speaker 7: It has darkened quite a bit, but yes, sir, it does appear to be that there is something in that area.
[01:16:21] Speaker 4: And you say it has darkened quite a bit, as far as perfect. Thank you. That's a good point. So, when you see blood evidence and you preserve blood evidence, is it possible that blood evidence may look different than when you preserve it years later?
[01:16:33] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:16:34] Speaker 4: Blood evidence. Is it fair to say changes over time?
[01:16:37] Speaker 8: It does.
[01:16:38] Speaker 4: Can blood evidence be affected by handling the weapon?
[01:16:42] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:16:43] Speaker 4: Examining it, for example?
[01:16:44] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:16:45] Speaker 4: Can blood evidence be affected by changes in temperature, humidity, things like that?
[01:16:52] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:16:59] Speaker 4: Let me show you what I'll mark for identification purposes only the States Exhibit 174. Show me the appropriate password, please. What I'll mark for identification purposes only the States Exhibit 174. This card, let me show you what's been marked for identification. Well, you might still need them. I'm sorry. That's probably sweaty. I'll hold it. Okay. Do you see States Exhibit 174?
[01:17:36] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:17:37] Speaker 4: Do you recognize that?
[01:17:38] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:17:38] Speaker 4: What is that?
[01:17:39] Speaker 7: That is a picture of the firearm with the cylinder open and a photograph of the ammunition.
[01:17:47] Speaker 6: Okay, you can take them off. I see.
[01:17:49] Speaker 4: I should have taken mine off, too. Does this appear to be the same or similar condition of that, a photograph of the same or similar, in the same or similar condition of the item you collected on that evening?
[01:18:03] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:18:04] Speaker 4: Who took this photo?
[01:18:06] Speaker 7: I don't recall if I took it or requested the detective that would have been unseen with me to take it.
[01:18:14] Speaker 4: You can't hold it and take it at the same time?
[01:18:16] Speaker 7: Not typically, not properly.
[01:18:19] Speaker 4: Do you think this fairly and accurately depicts the weapon as you saw it and collected it all on that evening?
[01:18:24] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:18:24] Speaker 4: Do you think there's been any changes or alterations made to States Exhibit 174 to make it not accurate?
[01:18:29] Speaker 11: No, sir.
[01:18:30] Speaker 4: Respectfully move the court to admit into evidence. So it's been marked for identification purposes on the States Exhibit 174. No, I position now to do it. Not too many. Permission to polish? Yes, sir. Let me show you now, jury members as well, States Exhibit 174. Is this more representative of the weapon as you saw it that evening?
[01:18:56] Speaker 8: Yes, sir. It is.
[01:18:57] Speaker 4: Do you see multiple rounds inside of the cylinder right here?
[01:19:06] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[01:19:08] Speaker 4: And do you see some biolackal evidence, blood evidence, and blood evidence here?
[01:19:13] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[01:19:18] Speaker 4: So would you agree with me that it appears the cylinder is full of rounds at this point? Maybe not, obviously not live rounds because one that didn't spend, but were the rest of these live rounds?
[01:19:29] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[01:19:32] Speaker 4: Would it be your process to then remove the live rounds from the cylinder at some point?
[01:19:37] Speaker 11: Yes, sir.
[01:19:48] Speaker 4: Assuming you wouldn't place the weapon in the box to be preserved with live ammunition inside?
[01:19:55] Speaker 7: No, sir.
[01:19:57] Speaker 4: Or did you, in fact, then remove the live ammunition and preserve it for future examination?
[01:20:02] Speaker 7: I'm sorry, say that again? I didn't hear the first part. Did you say, did I remove it?
[01:20:06] Speaker 4: Yeah, did you remove the live rounds and spin rounds even from the cylinder and preserve that from further?
[01:20:12] Speaker 7: Yes, sir, I did. Thank you.
[01:20:14] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you.
[01:20:43] Speaker 4: So once you process the scene, do you remember seeing a McDonald's bag on the floor anywhere near the decedent?
[01:21:07] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:21:08] Speaker 4: Did I have anything interesting or notable about that bag when you processed the basement?
[01:21:17] Speaker 7: Yes, sir. There was what appeared to be part of a handprint, a bloody handprint on the bottom of the bag.
[01:21:27] Speaker ?: All right.
[01:21:29] Speaker 4: Blood handprint on the bottom of the bag, did it? Was it corresponding finger marks, hand marks off to the left of the bag too on the carpet? Yes, sir. Do you remember that?
[01:21:39] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:21:45] Speaker 4: And what did that evidence tell you as a trained professional when you encountered it, please? Yes, anything.
[01:21:53] Speaker 7: Well, it had told me that someone had blood on their persons and had come in contact with that bag at that point. I can provide you the investigative details as well that the lead detective provided me, if you would like.
[01:22:10] Speaker 4: Just your opinion and your experience of what impression it made upon you this time. Okay. Do you remember what was in there? What was in the bag?
[01:22:20] Speaker 7: It appeared to be an uneaten meal, fries, and I believe a sandwich at some time.
[01:22:28] Speaker 4: Do you remember a McDonald's cup? Yes, sir. Tell the jury what you remember about that.
[01:22:32] Speaker 7: I remember that there was a cup in close proximity. I'd have to refer to my report to get the exact location. But there was a cup in close proximity that gave the appearance of being dropped. There was liquid surrounding the cup, and the lid was off the top of the cup.
[01:22:50] Speaker 4: What about ice? Did you see anything?
[01:22:52] Speaker 7: No, sir. I did not.
[01:22:53] Speaker ?: I did not.
[01:22:53] Speaker 4: Showing what's marked as State's Exhibit 54. Do you see a cup lid in this picture?
[01:23:26] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:23:27] Speaker 4: Off to the lower right of the bag itself, do you see that?
[01:23:33] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:23:34] Speaker 4: Is that consistent with what you saw, what you've spoken about?
[01:23:36] Speaker 8: Yes, sir, it is.
[01:23:37] Speaker 4: So you remember, if you look at, again, if you look at 169, you remember that, you see the location of the bag at 169, would you agree then that the cup was a little bit lower and to the right of the, or to the student, to the left of the McDonald's bag? Would you agree with that? Yes, sir. Before the feet of the student? Yes, sir. Is that the way you remember it?
[01:24:00] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:24:00] Speaker 4: Do you remember seeing anything, any kind of spatter, blood evidence on the walls?
[01:24:20] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:24:22] Speaker 4: Can you tell the jury what you remember?
[01:24:24] Speaker 7: I remember seeing where the victim was. I remember seeing blood spatter on the wall to the right-hand side when you walk in the room. There were a couple other places throughout the residence, but as far as the location of the victim, there was blood spatter in that area.
[01:24:52] Speaker 4: Sure. Opposing counsel, please, what's been previously marked for identification purposes only in states 175 and 176. Let me show you what's been previously marked for states exhibit 175 and 176, please. See if you recognize those photographs.
[01:25:19] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:25:20] Speaker 4: What are those photographs depicting generally?
[01:25:23] Speaker 7: If you're standing inside the room, this would be the left side of the doorway.
[01:25:28] Speaker 4: How do you recognize those photographs?
[01:25:32] Speaker 7: That's the blood spatter that was observed on the wall. Did you take those photos? I did.
[01:25:36] Speaker 4: Do they appear to be fair and accurate depictions of what you saw that evening regarding the wall?
[01:25:41] Speaker 11: Yes, sir.
[01:25:41] Speaker 4: Any changes, material alterations, deletions that make those not accurate?
[01:25:46] Speaker 11: No, sir.
[01:25:47] Speaker 4: With respect to the mood report, committed to evidence what's been previously marked for identification purposes only in states exhibit 175 and 176. No opposition, Your Honor. Commissioner to publish, please. Yes, ma'am. These are kind of the same, so just take 176 and just show you that. What was notable about this scene that caused you to photograph the police?
[01:26:13] Speaker 7: The location where the victim was observed when I walked in and the location of the blood spatter seemed to be, the incident seemed to be consistent with that was where the gunshot would have occurred.
[01:26:35] Speaker 4: Are you any kind of a blood spatter expert? No, sir. Do you have expertise in examining the spatter?
[01:26:43] Speaker 7: No, sir. A basic knowledge and training, that's it.
[01:26:47] Speaker 4: Are you an expert on pattern spatter analysis where the direction of flow or direction of impact, anything like that?
[01:26:56] Speaker 7: No, sir.
[01:27:02] Speaker 4: So once you were, once you had processed the basement, did you move on to other parts of the home to process that?
[01:27:09] Speaker 10: As directed, yes, sir.
[01:27:11] Speaker 4: Did you ever go upstairs into a bedroom area?
[01:27:14] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[01:27:17] Speaker 4: I can show up close to the council, but I'll mark for identification purposes as some of the states exhibit 177, please. Ma'am, let me show you what's been marked for identification purposes only if states exhibit 177 may approach. Do you recognize that?
[01:27:51] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:27:52] Speaker 4: What is that?
[01:27:53] Speaker 7: This is a picture of a, a partial picture of a bed and a window seal that was believed to be the complainant's room based on the investigation.
[01:28:04] Speaker 4: How do you recognize that picture?
[01:28:06] Speaker 7: I can see in this picture, a picture of the driver's license, which also identified the complainant.
[01:28:13] Speaker 4: Did you, did you take that picture?
[01:28:14] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:28:15] Speaker 4: Is it fairly accurately depicted the scene as you encountered it on that date?
[01:28:18] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:28:19] Speaker 4: Any changes, material, misrepresentations, or alterations or deletions that make it not accurate? No, sir. And when you say complainant, who do you mean?
[01:28:41] Speaker 7: The defendant's votes.
[01:28:42] Speaker 2: So, I want to bring your attention
[01:28:49] Speaker 4: to this photograph, 177, states 177. Do you believe this to be the upstairs bedroom?
[01:28:57] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:29:00] Speaker 4: Do you see biological evidence here?
[01:29:03] Speaker 7: Yes, sir, I do.
[01:29:04] Speaker 4: What was that?
[01:29:05] Speaker 7: That appeared to be a blood smear.
[01:29:07] Speaker 4: And you mentioned some kind of a license.
[01:29:14] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:29:14] Speaker 4: See, what is this here on the circle? It leads toward the lower left of 177.
[01:29:19] Speaker 7: That is the driver's license I referred to.
[01:29:24] Speaker 4: Did you have an opportunity to memorialize the driver's license you found? For example, for later analysis?
[01:29:36] Speaker 7: No, sir. I was asked to photograph the room. I did not collect the driver's license.
[01:29:40] Speaker 4: I'm sorry. This is a bad question. I should have just asked this simply. Did you photo it?
[01:29:44] Speaker 7: Yes, I did.
[01:29:45] Speaker 4: I should have asked it the most simple way. Did you take a picture of the license?
[01:29:48] Speaker 7: Yes, sir, I did.
[01:29:49] Speaker 4: And whose license was it?
[01:29:50] Speaker 7: Lacey Pauls.
[01:29:51] Speaker 4: Did you have an opportunity to examine a bathroom area off the master bedroom?
[01:30:08] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:30:09] Speaker 4: Before we move off away from that, I'm sorry. Let me show you what I'll mark as State's Exhibit 178 before you move off that topic on the podcast. Before we get to the bathroom, let's stay in the bedroom. I'll show you the closing council 178. At least if I may approach closing council. Let me show you 178. Do you recognize State's 178?
[01:30:38] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:30:39] Speaker 4: Did you take that photograph?
[01:30:41] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:30:42] Speaker 4: Do you take that photograph fairly accurately if it's seen, especially the bedroom scene as you saw it be on December 22, 2019?
[01:30:50] Speaker 9: Yes, sir.
[01:30:51] Speaker 4: Any material misrepresentations made to that photograph or changes or alterations that make it not what you saw?
[01:30:57] Speaker 7: No, sir.
[01:30:59] Speaker 4: Respectfully move the court to admit into evidence State's Exhibit 178. Let me just stay on this area of the bedroom, pastoral bedroom, primary bedroom. Is that a closer photograph of the biological evidence you saw on the wall in the defendant's bedroom?
[01:31:25] Speaker 8: Yes, sir. Here it is.
[01:31:36] Speaker 4: Now we'll move on to a little bit different topic. Did you have an opportunity to process a bathroom area off the primary bedroom?
[01:31:46] Speaker 7: To photograph it, yes, sir.
[01:31:47] Speaker ?: Yes.
[01:31:49] Speaker 4: Did you find anything notable, just with your naked eye, about the primary bathroom sink?
[01:32:03] Speaker 7: It appeared to be residual blood in the sink.
[01:32:09] Speaker 4: Did you photograph that?
[01:32:11] Speaker 7: Yes, sir, I did.
[01:32:11] Speaker 4: The show opposing counsel would all mark as State's Exhibit 179. I've got an approach opposing counsel. For the record, the show opposing counsel has been marked previously for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 179. Let me show you this. Do you recognize State's Exhibit 179?
[01:32:39] Speaker 8: Yes, sir. That appears to be a close-up of the bathroom sink.
[01:32:42] Speaker 4: Did you take that photo?
[01:32:44] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:32:45] Speaker 4: Is that photo 179 barely and accurately depicted the sink as you saw on that evening? Yes, sir. Any changes or alterations made to State's Exhibit 179 to make it not accurate? No, sir. Respectfully move the court to admit it to evidence. State's Exhibit 179. You know how to be positioned, right? Submitted. Submitted. Submitted. Submitted published. Yes, sir. So you said that you thought that there was what looked like to be splattered blood in the sink. Was this a sink that was right off the master bedroom, the primary bedroom?
[01:33:16] Speaker 7: The master bedroom, yes.
[01:33:19] Speaker 4: So consistent with, I mean, did you do any kind of testing to see if it was blood or human blood or pet blood?
[01:33:26] Speaker 7: No, sir. I was just asked to photograph it.
[01:33:29] Speaker 4: And when you, was it consistent with human blood from your training, knowledge, and experience?
[01:33:33] Speaker 7: It appeared to be.
[01:33:35] Speaker 4: Have you seen, have you had an opportunity to see, obviously, blood splatter, splashes? Yes, sir. Before that evening?
[01:33:41] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:33:42] Speaker 4: And since then? Have you seen it since then? Yes. On scenes?
[01:33:45] Speaker 8: Yes.
[01:33:46] Speaker 4: It appeared here to be consistent with blood.
[01:33:48] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:33:50] Speaker ?: All right.
[01:33:50] Speaker 4: Just kind of look for a place to follow.
[01:33:53] Speaker 2: I'm fine stopping right here. I'm just a moment. Thank you. All right. We've been going about an hour and a half, so it's a good time for a bit. Let's take 10 minutes.
[01:34:05] Speaker 8: Thank you so much.
[01:34:35] Speaker 6: Thank you.
[01:35:05] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
[01:35:35] Speaker 2: I don't think we can move the podium much further than it is. Perhaps we can. I'll try. Okay. We've got some room there.
[01:36:04] Speaker ?: All right.
[01:36:06] Speaker 2: That's about it. That's about it. Okay. How's that? Is that blocking, sir? Block any of the defense members? Blocking there? Yes, initially. Okay. Okay. So we're blocking.
[01:36:18] Speaker 6: I can stand.
[01:36:19] Speaker 2: You can stand? All right.
[01:36:23] Speaker ?: All right.
[01:36:26] Speaker 2: Okay. You may continue. Thank you. Thank you.
[01:36:28] Speaker 4: I'm just for a matter of housekeeping, Your Honor. I've been calling states exhibit 173. If it's a missile, I would ask you the court to label the actual missile cell 173A, unless it's any objections on the defense. And that would just be more finite marking and labeling, at least, this exhibit 173 in the box and 173A in this whole.
[01:36:53] Speaker 2: No changes. All right. That's fine. Yeah. Thank you.
[01:37:05] Speaker 4: I'm going to approach the council to show, but there is an article identification versus United States 1. Actually, it's already been admitted at the end. It says 130, 130, and if I may approach the witness. You had mentioned, actually, I just published it. This is in evidence. Some people just look to the screen, trying to make sure everybody can see it. This is states exhibit 130. If you can just look at this. Can you move it all the way to the top of the bird, in the same case? You move it all the way up. Is this the license you found inside the primary bedroom by the video cell?
[01:37:39] Speaker 10: Yes, sir, it is.
[01:37:43] Speaker 4: That's already in evidence at the state's exhibit 130 for the record. I'm going to approach the council and show it's been marked and already admitted in evidence at states exhibit 85, please. Let me publish it. It may have published 85. I'll see it. This is in evidence. We don't have to go to this foundation, but if you can look at states exhibit 85, loop all the way up. Is this what you saw as far as the contents of the bag?
[01:38:26] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[01:38:27] Speaker 4: The McDonald's bag?
[01:38:28] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[01:38:28] Speaker 4: So, you have a good recollection now. Is this the way you found it?
[01:38:36] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[01:38:38] Speaker 4: Did it appear that the hamburger had been eaten at all?
[01:38:41] Speaker 10: It did not.
[01:38:42] Speaker 4: It did appear that it had been opened or a box.
[01:38:47] Speaker 10: No, sir. Did you see any fries in there? I don't recall. There is an additional photograph that would depict that, I believe.
[01:38:55] Speaker 12: It's a good one.
[01:39:25] Speaker 4: And I can approach opposing counsel, refer opposing counsel, what's already in evidence at the state's exhibit 77. Can you publish that? Yes, sir. This is already in evidence at the part of the state's exhibit 77. And it's like you were writing more as a picture of a rock. You see that?
[01:39:53] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[01:39:55] Speaker 4: At least some of the rock were uneven since your recollection.
[01:40:00] Speaker 9: Yes, sir.
[01:40:06] Speaker 4: What number was that? 70s. That's, as far as states, it was 77. Name. Yes, sir. So we're talking about this bag, this McDonald's bag, a lot of, uh, a lot of, uh, testimony, say it's 59, for example, shows it with all wood at the top, so that you can see it. So did you collect the McDonald's bag?
[01:40:34] Speaker 10: No, sir.
[01:40:35] Speaker 4: Did you photograph it?
[01:40:36] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[01:40:37] Speaker 4: Obviously, it looked like several photographs of it from different angles. Did you do that?
[01:40:42] Speaker 7: Yes.
[01:40:42] Speaker 4: Why didn't you collect it and take it in evidence?
[01:40:45] Speaker 7: The bag was consistent with the investigative details that I had been provided by the lead detective, showing that they had advised me that Ms. Foles had been over the victim and was, had blood on her. And it's consistent with someone pressing their hand down as a support to stand up from being in the floor.
[01:41:07] Speaker 4: So, um, is it your understanding that detectives prior to you got here, prior to you arriving, they had talked to the recipient, they received this information from somebody?
[01:41:18] Speaker 7: Some form of the investigation had provided them with those details, yes, sir, but I'm unaware of who they spoke to or interviewed.
[01:41:24] Speaker 4: Okay, but at that time when you began, you were processing of the basement, have you had that information?
[01:41:29] Speaker 7: I was provided with that information, yes.
[01:41:31] Speaker 4: Is there anything abnormal about the bag or the nature of the bag, to your knowledge, that would have been contrary to what you had received?
[01:41:40] Speaker 8: Nothing.
[01:41:41] Speaker 4: If there had been, would you have collected it?
[01:41:44] Speaker 8: Yes.
[01:41:45] Speaker 4: Okay. Seven years later, this is an eMERGE trial.
[01:41:53] Speaker 7: In hindsight, I do wish I had collected the bag.
[01:41:56] Speaker 4: All right. And a cup?
[01:41:58] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:41:58] Speaker 4: All right. That's fair enough. Did you, did you go into this, um, crime scene with any notion, suicide, homicide, accident? Did you, did you, did you have any preconceived notions about it?
[01:42:12] Speaker 7: Only that it was a death investigation.
[01:42:15] Speaker 4: Okay, so just a death investigation. Yes. Was that what it was to you when you approached it and how you worked it?
[01:42:20] Speaker 7: That's how we're trained, is you approach it as a death investigation. You don't know if it's a suicide, if it's a homicide, if it's an accident. And you aren't aware of that. Your job is to process the scene. I'm sorry. That's okay, go ahead.
[01:42:37] Speaker 4: Did you come in there with any bias toward or against anybody?
[01:42:40] Speaker 7: No, sir.
[01:42:42] Speaker 4: Obviously, it's tragic. You see a tragic scene. Yes. Somebody's lost their life. Does that make you lean toward one side or the other when you're processing? No, sir. Do you kind of have to rise above that?
[01:42:53] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:42:54] Speaker 4: Did you do that here? Did you rise above that process of this profession?
[01:42:57] Speaker 8: Yes, sir, I did.
[01:42:58] Speaker 4: You also, did you collect anything from the decedent's pockets or about his immediate person?
[01:43:28] Speaker 7: So we removed the contents. They were put in plain view. Normal practice is to photograph the contents of the decedent's pockets, and the personal belongings are released to the coroner or provided to the coroner. The only thing that I recall collecting at that time was a cell phone because they can potentially obtain additional evidence in the event that it's needed and you can't retrieve it at a later point. So that was preserved.
[01:44:01] Speaker 4: May I approach witness? Yes. Thank you. Tell a jury just – and I don't really honestly don't even know this myself. What is the coroner's official job? Did the coroner arrive while you were there? She did.
[01:44:16] Speaker 7: Coroner.
[01:44:17] Speaker 4: What's her name back then? Lindsay Eberhardt.
[01:44:19] Speaker 7: Coroner Eberhardt arrived.
[01:44:20] Speaker 4: Yes. What's the coroner's job while you're working your job? What's the coroner's responsibility? So she came in and pronounced the victim deceased.
[01:44:24] Speaker 7: At that time she would have stayed on scene until we finished processing, assisted with anything that we may have needed. We don't move the victim until she arrives. So any additional photographs or moving of the victim would be in her presence. And then when the scene is complete and we're ready to release the scene then the body is released to the coroner.
[01:44:57] Speaker 4: So did you take pictures of the decedent after moving down various pictures of the body that we may not be able to see in these pictures?
[01:45:07] Speaker 7: Additional photographs were taken. I recall they had lifted some of his clothing especially to photograph his back. I don't remember all the areas that were photographed. But the victim would have been evaluated prior to leaving the scene.
[01:45:23] Speaker 4: Did you take those photographs then after the coroner arrived?
[01:45:26] Speaker 7: After the coroner arrived, yes. Nothing on the victim was moved prior to her arrival. to her arrival.
[01:45:56] Speaker 4: Let me show you. When we approach opposing counsel, please, Your Honor, and if I may, I'm going to show what's been marked for identification purposes only at State's Exhibit 1-8-0. I may approach you, Ms. Carter, and ask you to put the gloves on and take a look at State's Exhibit, what's been marked as 1-8-0-1-8.
[01:46:29] Speaker 7: This appears to be an evidence bag that is labeled as containing a cell phone, Apple, iPhone, white in a case.
[01:46:43] Speaker 4: How do you recognize that item according to the State's 1-8-0?
[01:46:49] Speaker 7: My name is handwritten on here, and that is my handwriting.
[01:46:55] Speaker 4: Is this State's Exhibit 1-8-0, other than maybe having different tape on it, some of the markings of the people who may have been afraid for the security of the bag that leaves the same or similar conditions to when you bagged it?
[01:47:07] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:47:08] Speaker 4: Any reason that you believe that that's not a fair and accurate representation of the bag, the evidence itself on that you bagged it, collected it on that date?
[01:47:18] Speaker 7: I would have no reason to believe.
[01:47:20] Speaker 4: You see your initials are paying? Yes, sir. Respectfully, we would report to admitted evidence for the market recently for identification purposes on the Estates Exhibit 1-8. No acquisition, Your Honor. Is this it? Commissioner, publish, please. Thank you.
[01:47:33] Speaker ?: Yes.
[01:47:35] Speaker 4: So if you will just, you have a number here, and then referencing before the jury, for the record, State's Exhibit 1-8-0 on the big screen. What does this mean, case number at the top, ending in 626?
[01:47:57] Speaker 7: That's the year, the month, and the case number that would be originally assigned through dispatch that would follow any investigative reports or anything done with this case throughout.
[01:48:10] Speaker 4: Okay, so is it fair that case number 626 might be on other things?
[01:48:15] Speaker 7: The 53626, yes. But you always have the year and month in front of it as well.
[01:48:21] Speaker 4: Does 53626 follow along with the case until the case conclusion? Yes, sir. As far as your office was concerned?
[01:48:27] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:48:29] Speaker 4: And were you pleased for the jury, what is the description that you put on here?
[01:48:33] Speaker 7: Cell phone, Apple, iPhone, white, and a case.
[01:48:38] Speaker 4: Okay, and obviously is this the date you collected and bagged it? Yes, sir. Well, 2219.
[01:48:43] Speaker 7: Yes, sir, it is.
[01:48:44] Speaker 4: If I may just have you open it, please. If you could please open stances of the 180. Okay. Do you want me to remove it? Again, do you see some tape on there? Which one is your tape?
[01:49:32] Speaker 7: This one here. Okay. The initials. The side's cut.
[01:49:36] Speaker 4: Show opposing counsel. Which color tape did you put on here?
[01:49:40] Speaker 7: I believe it was the blue tape. It's the one with the ABC initials on it.
[01:49:44] Speaker 4: ABC, Amanda B. Carter. Yes, sir. So the blue tape is you when you first collect the evidence?
[01:49:50] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:49:50] Speaker 4: But we see green and red on here as well. Do you know the origin of those things?
[01:49:55] Speaker 7: Different departments, different agencies. I can't say for certain. They should be logged on the property and evidence record when in chain of custody.
[01:50:04] Speaker 4: Okay. What does chain of custody mean?
[01:50:06] Speaker 7: It shows the location of the evidence and if it changes hands, if it goes from one place to another. Anyone that has encountered that evidence at any point in time should be on that chain of custody. All right.
[01:50:18] Speaker 4: And why seal it with this tape? What's the purpose?
[01:50:22] Speaker 7: You want to maintain the integrity of the evidence and if you open it, then you need to be the one to reseal it to make sure that it's still maintaining the same condition that you originally put in the bag.
[01:50:34] Speaker 4: All right. If you'll remove the contents of one, would you please show the jury? All right. So if you can kind of show what's in there. Just describe it from the record.
[01:50:49] Speaker 7: This appears to be part of the cell phone cover. Two additional pieces of the cell phone cover. And then this, the actual cell phone. And it has a SIM card taped to the front of it.
[01:51:06] Speaker 4: And why would that be?
[01:51:08] Speaker 7: I can't say with certainty, but I would imagine some sort of processing.
[01:51:12] Speaker 4: Speculate. Have you, is that the, did you just, I'm sorry, I apologize, I'll rephrase it, Your Honor. Was it the SIM card taped to it to the front like that when you last factored?
[01:51:22] Speaker 7: No, sir.
[01:51:23] Speaker 4: Is it common for other detectives, other examiners possibly to remove a SIM card to examine or analyze it?
[01:51:29] Speaker 11: It's possible.
[01:51:31] Speaker 4: Other than the SIM card being taped to it, is that the same condition you saw those items in on that evening?
[01:51:37] Speaker 7: And the case being taken apart, yes, sir. Everything appears to be here.
[01:51:43] Speaker 4: So, yeah, two plastic pieces that form the case, do you see that? Yes, sir.
[01:51:48] Speaker 7: Front and back.
[01:51:49] Speaker 4: And then the rubber part.
[01:51:51] Speaker 7: That would go on the back, over the plastic piece.
[01:51:54] Speaker 4: When you bagged it, obviously, was it, was the case intact?
[01:51:57] Speaker 7: All of this was together. Yes, sir.
[01:52:00] Speaker 4: But is it possible that other examiners undid the case?
[01:52:04] Speaker 7: It would be necessary to undo it.
[01:52:08] Speaker 4: I have to approach the jury box, please, Your Honor, to publish it. And I want this, Your Honor, by name and the mark, this, the inside of 180, states 180, marking 180A as in alpha, 180A. Is this the cell phone that you remove from the pockets or the immediate person of the deceit, in this case, Daniel Baker, is on that?
[01:52:32] Speaker 8: It appears to be.
[01:52:42] Speaker 4: You have two gloves, so let me see if you can repackage it. Thank you.
[01:52:47] Speaker ?: Thank you.
[01:52:55] Speaker 12: You have two gloves, so let me see if I can open it.
[01:52:58] Speaker ?: It's going to open it. It's going to open it.
[01:52:59] Speaker 12: It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it.
[01:53:00] Speaker ?: It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. Yeah. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it. It's going to open it.
[01:53:37] Speaker 4: Just to be absolutely sure we are, state tenders 173A, the fiscal interior contents of 173 and 180A, the interior of 180, is for the record. All right.
[01:54:05] Speaker 13: At least the cell phone and the parts, no problem. That's what it is.
[01:54:10] Speaker 4: Okay. Just one more area that I wanted to mention. I know that you're familiar with firearms and you collect firearms and examine them a lot. Is that true?
[01:54:25] Speaker 7: I wouldn't say examine them, that's usually GBI, but I'm familiar with firearms.
[01:54:30] Speaker 4: Yes, sir. I meant processing. Have you come across scenes before with firearms on scene? Yes. Many times. Yes. And I just wanted to clarify, since you and I know firearms, but the jury might not. When I said there was a spent round, there was a spent round in the cylinder. Yes.
[01:54:48] Speaker 7: Do you know what that means?
[01:54:49] Speaker 4: Yes.
[01:54:50] Speaker 7: Tell the jury. That means that there were multiple live rounds of ammunition, but that firearm had fired one round and the ammunition and shell casings that were inside the firearm were consistent with that.
[01:55:03] Speaker 4: Okay.
[01:55:04] Speaker ?: All right. All right.
[01:55:04] Speaker 4: So one round had been fired from this cylinder, which looks to hold about nine shots, eight shots. Would you agree? Let's count. One, two, three, three, four, five, six, seven, nine shots.
[01:55:15] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[01:55:16] Speaker 4: How many live shots were there?
[01:55:18] Speaker 7: Eight? I believe there were eight and one spent shell casing.
[01:55:21] Speaker 4: And on a revolver, just in case, some people may not own weapons or they never shot a revolver. When a revolver is shot, is there a shell that is extended?
[01:55:34] Speaker 11: No, sir.
[01:55:35] Speaker 4: Does the shell then remain in the cylinder? Yes, sir. It does. Did you find that empty shell casing in the cylinder?
[01:55:41] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:55:42] Speaker 4: I did. Did you remove it and preserve it for evidence?
[01:55:44] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:55:45] Speaker 4: I did. You did preserve all the live rounds for the cylinder that you found?
[01:55:49] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:55:50] Speaker ?: I did. Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir. Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir. Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir. Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir. Do you remember seeing a trash can?
[01:56:24] Speaker 4: Yes, sir. Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir. Do you remember seeing a trash can? Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir. Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir. Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir. Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir. Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir.
[01:56:38] Speaker 8: Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir.
[01:56:40] Speaker 4: Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir. Do you remember seeing a trash can? Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir. Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir.
[01:56:47] Speaker ?: Do you remember seeing something like that? Yes, sir.
[01:56:49] Speaker 4: Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir. Do you remember seeing a trash can? Do you remember seeing a trash can? Yes, sir. Do you remember seeing a trash can? Do you remember seeing something like that? Yes, sir. What information? Why was that important to you just to see it? Do you saw a trash can out on the living floor, the living area?
[01:57:02] Speaker 7: Based on the investigative details I had been provided, the victim was upstairs in the living room with responders prior to my arrival and she had utilized the trash can because she had been vomiting.
[01:57:17] Speaker 4: Have you come into contact with other victims at scenes before?
[01:57:22] Speaker 7: Many victims.
[01:57:24] Speaker 4: Have you ever seen somebody vomiting at a scene like this? No, sir.
[01:57:28] Speaker 7: It's the first time I've seen that, but I did not see her. I have only photographed the trash can.
[01:57:35] Speaker 4: Right. The word you received she had been vomiting or about to vomit. Yes, sir. And what you had seen personally in all these crimes, did you ever see that? I've never seen that.
[01:57:45] Speaker 7: I don't have anything further.
[01:57:48] Speaker 4: Thank you. All right.
[01:57:50] Speaker ?: Cross-examination. Thank you.
[01:57:50] Speaker 2: How are you? Good, how are you? Good to see you.
[01:57:53] Speaker ?: Good to see you, sir. May I ask you questions? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Thank you. Thank you. How are you? Good, how are you? Good to see you. Good to see you, sir. May I ask you questions? Yes, sir.
[01:58:03] Speaker 13: Thank you. How are you? Good, how are you? Good to see you. Good to see you, sir. May I ask you questions? Yes, sir. The whole purpose of what you're trying to do for everybody is to gather the truth. Is that fair to say? Yes, sir. Because there was a time before you were born that science didn't catch up with crime scene. Is that true? Yes, sir. And we used to, you know, come to these scenes and not even take photographs, collect some evidence and just have people just repeat to jurors what they believe they saw. Is that accurate?
[01:59:11] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[01:59:12] Speaker 13: And over time, the people who are interested in seeing truth come out said that's, we have to do better. Fair?
[01:59:23] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[01:59:24] Speaker 13: And there's this movement, and it's been going on for decades now, but this movement to ensure that the highest quality of information is provided to a jury in a courtroom. Is that true? Yes, sir. And that includes, and it's multiple, it's well beyond you, but that includes what you do for people, right? Yes, sir. Because you're a critical part of securing evidence so the truth can be learned. Fair? Yes. I heard the prosecutor ask you, like, are you biased? You're just there as an important, critical person to find things so other people can present it to the jury to hopefully reach a truthful verdict. Is that fair to say?
[02:00:17] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[02:00:18] Speaker 13: Yes, sir. And you go through tremendous training. And when I say you, I heard all your qualifications, but the big issue with you is you want to observe what's going on, right?
[02:00:34] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[02:00:36] Speaker 13: You then want to memorialize it in some way, correct?
[02:00:39] Speaker 10: Correct.
[02:00:40] Speaker 13: And memorialize could be taking photographs, right?
[02:00:43] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[02:00:45] Speaker 13: Videos. Yes, sir. Collect evidence. Yes, sir. Take swabs. Yes. Jurors may not know what a swab is, and correct me, but you know, you take like, I'm going to make it simple, but like a Q-tip and you could touch it to suspected blood to have the blood get onto, or the item, I guess, get onto the Q-tip and then send it off to somebody qualified who can put it with other agents or chemicals or high powered microscopes, whatever, and determine what the substance is. True. Yes, sir. And there's also, in our world that we're living in now, there's these unbelievable advancements of DNA. True?
[02:01:30] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:01:31] Speaker 13: And I'm not asking you, I heard you're not DNA, except I'm not going there, but we all have DNA, all the human beings, and animals, and innate objects, right?
[02:01:43] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:01:44] Speaker 13: And we're shredding, leaving behind evidence that we've been places because of our DNA is left behind, right? Yes, sir. So, while I'm standing here in the Honorable Judge Bucci's courtroom, and he's allowing me to touch this podium, there's a possibility, a good possibility, that I'm actually leaving my DNA everywhere I've been. Is that true? Yes. And then scientists, I'm not saying you, but there are scientists who, if they're provided that information, that, you know, the swabbing of where I've been, they can then observe whether there is a collection of DNA to test. True?
[02:02:23] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[02:02:24] Speaker 13: And then if they take a known sample, like if it was me, and they swab my mouth, they went in with a Q-tip into my cheeks, they could send it to that same scientist and say, okay, this is Brian Steele, this is his known DNA, get a profile, and then compare it to the profile of the item that was submitted. True? Yes, sir. And that's how we can make matches, right? Correct. And DNA is like, sometimes beyond trillions, like one in a trillion, it's not Brian Steele. I mean, it's astronomical. What we believe maybe one day is proven wrong, but what we believe to be the highest evidence. Fair?
[02:03:00] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:03:01] Speaker 13: Same thing with fingerprints. I'm not saying it's the same degree as DNA, but fingerprints also could be looked for, gathered. Yes, sir. Okay. And I want to thank you for what you do, because that's what you tried to do on December 22, 2019, right?
[02:03:19] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[02:03:20] Speaker 13: I'm confident you had better things to do in your life than sit there early morning hours, but it was so important that that's what you did. True?
[02:03:29] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[02:03:30] Speaker 13: And you take your job seriously.
[02:03:32] Speaker 10: Yes, sir, I do.
[02:03:33] Speaker 13: And we don't do things on hunches, right? I mean, it's not like speculation, like, oh, I think the person was going to do this. I mean, we try as best we can to provide the jurors with accurate information, right? Yes, sir. Because if there's more than one way to look at something, then that's fine, then we say there's more than one way to look at it, right?
[02:03:56] Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
[02:03:57] Speaker 13: Is that true? Yes, sir, it is. We try to narrow it down to the logical event and what caused it, right?
[02:04:06] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[02:04:07] Speaker 13: So things generally are logical. Fair to say?
[02:04:12] Speaker 10: Fair.
[02:04:13] Speaker 13: So if I were to have this Sharpie on the Honorable Judge Bucci's podium, and then I just pushed it off, now it's on the floor, we all left. Somebody can say that Sharpie fell off the podium, right? Or the desk, yes. Or the desk, or I could have placed it on the floor. Yes, sir. True? Yes, sir. Or it could have been there the day before, right? Could have. It could have been there for a week, right? Yes, sir. But we try to not put all these subjective information. We just look at it and say, here's what it is. Here's what I saw. Here's what I observed. And we don't guess, right?
[02:04:59] Speaker 8: We don't guess, no.
[02:05:01] Speaker 13: So when the prosecutor sat down a minute ago, I think you made it clear. I mean, you said the victim was vomiting into a trash can. You weren't there, but that's what you were told. Fair to say?
[02:05:15] Speaker 11: That is what the investigation led to, yes.
[02:05:17] Speaker 13: And the victim is being Ms. Bowles, right? Yes, sir. And the prosecutor then asked you another question and says, somehow.
[02:05:26] Speaker 11: I think I referred to her as the complainant.
[02:05:29] Speaker 13: You did earlier, but on that sequence. Whatever the record says, it doesn't matter. It's Ms. Bowles who we're talking about.
[02:05:35] Speaker 11: Yes, Ms. Bowles.
[02:05:36] Speaker 13: Yeah. People who are in traumatic, unexpected, tragic situations can be affected mentally. True?
[02:05:56] Speaker 9: True.
[02:05:57] Speaker 13: And emotionally, right?
[02:05:59] Speaker 9: Yes, sir.
[02:06:00] Speaker 13: And spiritually?
[02:06:02] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:06:04] Speaker 13: And physically?
[02:06:06] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:06:07] Speaker 13: And vomiting or dry heaving or whatever the right term would be, that is a combination of mental as well as physical. Is that true?
[02:06:21] Speaker 8: Can be.
[02:06:22] Speaker 13: And for the prosecutor to say, like, you've never seen somebody or heard about somebody vomiting after a traumatic situation, are you saying that that's some inference of guilt?
[02:06:36] Speaker 7: Yes. I'm only saying that it's something that I haven't seen. Yes, and your iron light.
[02:06:39] Speaker 4: Take that outside. And of course, instead of the edge of it. Okay. Well, we'll take a break.
[02:06:44] Speaker ?: Okay. We'll take a break. Okay.
[02:06:45] Speaker 2: We'll take a break.
[02:06:46] Speaker ?: Okay.
[02:06:46] Speaker 2: We'll take a break.
[02:06:47] Speaker ?: Okay.
[02:06:47] Speaker 2: We'll take a break.
[02:06:48] Speaker ?: Okay. We'll take a break. Okay. We'll take a break. Okay. We'll take a break. Okay. We'll take a break. Okay. We'll take a break. Okay. We'll take a break. Okay. We'll take a break. Okay. We'll take a break. Okay. We'll take a break. Okay. We'll take a break. Okay. We'll take a break. Okay. We'll take a break. Okay. We'll take a break. Okay. We'll take a break. Okay.
[02:07:14] Speaker 13: I don't know what the objection is, but can Ms. Carter, Crime Scene Technician Carter, be excused from your courtroom? That's fine.
[02:07:32] Speaker 2: Yes, sir.
[02:07:33] Speaker 10: No block. Yes, sir. Oh, yeah.
[02:07:44] Speaker ?: Sir.
[02:07:45] Speaker 4: Your Honor, respectfully, Mr. Steele listed the question that draws upon the ultimate issue for the jury. All I said was, was it unusual? Mine was pointing to the unusual nature of someone vomiting at the scene. Had she ever seen that? It's unusual. I didn't use the term guilt in a sense. That's what Mr. Steele used. Are you drawing, are you saying that that implies some inference of guilt? That goes to the jury in the ultimate issue. This witness cannot comment on inferences of guilt, inferences of innocence, or anything even remotely close to that. So that's an improper question. If I did that, there'd be all three of these fine lawyers would be objected to it. Because I can't do that and neither can the defense. Thank you. Can I have a response? Yes, I have a response.
[02:08:39] Speaker 13: It's a proper question. I'm not asking anybody to comment on guilt. I didn't understand. And I'm asking questions on cross-examination to get an understanding of why that was even an impact. And she can say, oh yeah, that was an inference of guilt, or no, it's an inference of innocence, or I made a mistake, or it really means nothing. But that's what I'm asking for. So no, I don't think that it's an improper question.
[02:09:04] Speaker 2: All right.
[02:09:05] Speaker ?: All right.
[02:09:05] Speaker 2: Follow the rule here. We'll get to try to answer that. All right. Follow the rule here. We'll get to try to answer that.
[02:09:10] Speaker ?: And enjoy that. Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:09:26] Speaker 2: Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:09:44] Speaker ?: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:09:54] Speaker 6: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:09:56] Speaker ?: Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:09:57] Speaker 13: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:10:00] Speaker 2: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:10:02] Speaker 13: Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:10:03] Speaker ?: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:10:16] Speaker 14: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:10:32] Speaker 2: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:10:38] Speaker 14: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:10:43] Speaker ?: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:11:38] Speaker 2: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:11:40] Speaker ?: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:11:47] Speaker 12: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:11:49] Speaker ?: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:12:02] Speaker 13: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:12:09] Speaker ?: Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:12:10] Speaker 13: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:12:13] Speaker 7: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:12:19] Speaker 13: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:12:43] Speaker 8: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:12:46] Speaker 13: Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:12:47] Speaker 8: Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:12:48] Speaker 13: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:13:15] Speaker 9: Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:13:16] Speaker ?: Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:13:17] Speaker 9: Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:13:18] Speaker ?: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:13:32] Speaker 6: Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:13:33] Speaker 9: Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:13:34] Speaker ?: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:13:37] Speaker 6: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:13:45] Speaker 13: Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come? Do you mind asking them to come?
[02:14:02] Speaker 9: I don't recall these exact photos, sir.
[02:14:20] Speaker 13: Okay. Did you take photographs from items of inside the car that was driven by Mr. Akers?
[02:14:29] Speaker 7: I took photographs of the car. We didn't remove any items from the car at that time.
[02:14:35] Speaker 13: Okay. Do you know who would be responsible for doing that?
[02:14:38] Speaker 10: No, sir.
[02:14:39] Speaker 13: I don't. So you cannot recognize what is memorializing Ms. Bowles number 72 through 78? No, sir. Okay. Then we will do it another witness. Just give me a courtesy. Just put that aside. Yeah. But do not refer to them.
[02:14:53] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:14:54] Speaker 13: Okay.
[02:14:55] Speaker ?: You've never worked at a crime lab, true?
[02:14:55] Speaker 8: True.
[02:14:56] Speaker ?: And a crime lab, I mean, it's just the name, but it's the name. It's a laboratory full of scientists, basically, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And they, in Georgia, we're fortunate enough to have the Georgia Medical Center.
[02:15:05] Speaker 6: It's law enforcement.
[02:15:06] Speaker ?: It's law enforcement.
[02:15:06] Speaker 6: It's law enforcement.
[02:15:07] Speaker ?: It's law enforcement. It's a laboratory full of scientists, basically. Yes.
[02:15:10] Speaker 13: And they, in Georgia, we're fortunate enough to have the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. It's law enforcement. But they have scientists working with them, right?
[02:15:37] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:15:38] Speaker 13: And the scientists, I guess they could be law enforcement, but they're generally, like me, they're a civilian person.
[02:15:43] Speaker 8: I believe they're a civilian.
[02:15:44] Speaker 13: And they've been trained, educated, skilled. Hopefully, I'm not saying people don't make errors, but to do certain types of testing on items that potentially you could collect. True? Yes, sir. In the crime lab here in Georgia, we have a blood section. Is that your knowledge? Yes, sir.
[02:16:06] Speaker 10: I believe so.
[02:16:07] Speaker 13: And the blood section can test for things like alcohol or drugs. Yes, sir.
[02:16:12] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[02:16:13] Speaker 13: You could also test for DNA. Yes, sir. It could also test for whether there's mixing of different, you know, persons' bloods and typing, et cetera.
[02:16:30] Speaker 7: True? Not sure of all the capabilities of their tests, but they can perform any tests related to DNA evidence.
[02:16:38] Speaker 13: They have a firearm section?
[02:16:40] Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
[02:16:41] Speaker 13: They do. Fingerprint section? Yes, sir. DNA section? Yes, sir. Autopsy, medical examiner section? Yes, sir. And other sections that may or may not be involved in our case, but they also work together. They do. So if there's a firearm involved, you can have people test the firearm, but they go to protocol and say, well, we're going to test the firearm, but first we're going to check it for DNA, right?
[02:17:03] Speaker 11: Yes, sir.
[02:17:04] Speaker 13: That's correct. Because as you may have noticed in the courtroom, the honorable district attorney investigator, he didn't wear gloves, but he held the firearm around the trigger area. Did you see that? Yes, sir. With his bare hands? Yes, sir. Did you notice that? You didn't notice that? Yes, I did. And you didn't do that because you know that there's some potential, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what he did, but you know, blood can carry germs.
[02:17:30] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[02:17:31] Speaker 13: Even old, you know, from 2019, right? Yes, sir. And in this case, you were careful, knowledgeable, to ensure that that firearm was cared for and not disturbed as best as possible because it may contain true evidence. True.
[02:17:57] Speaker 10: To the best of my ability, yes, sir. Yeah.
[02:17:59] Speaker 13: I mean, you noticed that firearm had potential blood on it, right?
[02:18:03] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[02:18:04] Speaker 13: And it may not have had blood. I can say on other substances it can look like blood, but it looked like -- It appeared to. It appeared to be blood. And we would know that because we can test it. I may not say we, not me, but scientists can test it and determine that it is blood. True. Yes, sir. And they can tell whether it's an animal's blood or human blood, right? Yes, sir. Or not blood at all. Yes, sir. And they can tell with DNA whose blood it belongs to potentially if there's a known donor. Yes, sir. And when you grab the firearm, and we'll discuss it here and show it to jury, you didn't, to the best of your ability, let other people touch that firearm because they can damage the evidence on the firearm. Even if it's innocent. Yes. Like the investigator did. When he touched that, he added to and changed the dynamics of that firearm. True? Yes, sir. Now it's seven years later, so the testing obviously isn't over. So he didn't do anything to change this trial. Is that all true? Yes, sir. And when you collected it, you ensured that it was in proper position, care, quality control to be sent to the crime lab if the lead detective wanted that to happen for testing.
[02:19:23] Speaker 8: True?
[02:19:24] Speaker 13: Yes, sir. You knew that it's a death investigation, which this is not the first death investigation you ever were on.
[02:19:33] Speaker 9: True?
[02:19:34] Speaker 13: True. And I know it's Paulding County. It's very safe and it's a great place to be housed. But tragically, there are other murders, killings, suicide, accidental deaths that occur in this county before 2019, right? Yes, sir. And it's not like the law enforcement who arrived are just inept. They're actually trained to make sure they collect all evidence. True? Yes, sir. And that's part of your training too?
[02:20:03] Speaker 11: Yes, sir.
[02:20:04] Speaker 13: With regards to the revolver, you notice what is supposedly, and I'm not saying it's not, but I'm not going to say it is, but it looks like there to be blood, right?
[02:20:17] Speaker 11: It appeared to be. Yes, sir.
[02:20:19] Speaker 13: And you also knew that the issue here was, did Mr. Akers pull that trigger and kill himself? Because that's what the call came out as from 9-1-1, right?
[02:20:33] Speaker 7: I don't know what the call came out as. I know what Detective Octon provided me with on scene.
[02:20:39] Speaker 13: Was it similar to what I just said?
[02:20:40] Speaker 7: It was similar, yes.
[02:20:42] Speaker 13: Saying that the deceased took his own life with a firearm, right? Yes, sir. And that revolver, if tested, may show whose DNA is on that trigger pull. True?
[02:21:00] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:21:01] Speaker 13: And even it's a revolver. And if you don't know this, just say, Brian, I don't feel comfortable. I'm under oath. But does the hammer, do you know what I'm talking about by the hammer of the firearm? I do. Explain to the jurors what the hammer is and whether it needs to be touched in order to engage to fire. If you know. And if you don't know, just say.
[02:21:20] Speaker 7: I do, but I don't feel comfortable explaining it under oath because I don't want to misspeak. No, no.
[02:21:25] Speaker 13: And that's what we're doing here. You're trying to give pristine evidence, right? Yes, sir. And you made that comment earlier about the blood evidence. I heard you make it clear. I am not a blood expert. I've been around it. I've listened to other people. But I am not telling you anything of substance about blood. That is not my lane. Yes, sir. True?
[02:21:45] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:21:46] Speaker 13: I mean, I heard you say that because you were calling something spatter and the shot may have occurred entering the room. Yes, sir. But you made it clear, relying on somebody else. I'm giving you 50 cents of information that may be worth nothing. True?
[02:22:03] Speaker 6: Yes, sir.
[02:22:04] Speaker 13: All right. Now, whose job it is, and specifically, is it yours? When you properly grab that revolver, you're wearing gloves. We saw in some photographs, right? Yes, sir. And the gloves help, by the way, not to wipe off evidence. True? True. And it also protects the person touching the item, right? It does. So it's a good thing for both reasons, right? Yes, sir. And when you collected it, was it your charge, your responsibility to say, hey, send this to the Georgia crime lab, or the FBI, or the DEA crime lab, or the CIA, or whomever law enforcement, for the DNA testing on who pulled the trigger? Is that your call?
[02:22:53] Speaker 8: No, sir.
[02:22:54] Speaker 13: That would be the lead detective. Is that fair to say?
[02:22:57] Speaker 11: Based on where the investigation leads, yes, sir. All right.
[02:23:01] Speaker 13: And you, although it's not your call, you're preserving everything you can so that somebody else later can say, yeah, I want this tested, I want this tested, et cetera. Yes, sir. And that's why I believe you said, and I heard you, you know, very frankly told the jury, I really wish I would have taken the McDonald's bag.
[02:23:23] Speaker 8: Yes, sir, that's correct.
[02:23:24] Speaker 13: And the cup, because actually that's evidence that could be useful to this case, right?
[02:23:31] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:23:32] Speaker 13: And no one's criticizing you, but at the time you thought, well, I could photograph it, that would be fine enough, right?
[02:23:40] Speaker 7: At the time, we believed photographs were sufficient. It was consistent with all the details provided in the investigation.
[02:23:46] Speaker 13: And then afterwards, though, it would have been nice to potentially have the McDonald's bag so we can see whether it was in fact dropped or placed down potentially, right? Yes, sir. And the cup, and I'm going to show pictures to the jurors. I know you and I and the prosecutors have been, you know, pouring over this, but we'll show the jurors, but the cup also could have dropped, fallen, been placed down. We don't know. True?
[02:24:19] Speaker 12: True.
[02:24:20] Speaker 13: I'd like to show you the cup, and I'm going to ask you some questions. I don't believe it would be in your purview to do it, but I'm going to ask you the question, and you tell us whose job it was to order this done, okay? Okay. I'm going to ask Ms. Dinnerstein to just pull out everything from that room. All the photos, so I don't waste time. Okay. And then I'll come back to those questions, okay? Yes, sir. All right. So let's talk about March 5th of 2020. I've just accelerated about 100 days, just over 100 days. Were you on that scene photographing when law enforcement was there at Ms. Bowles in the Stagers Hall? Yes. That would be somebody else? Correct. All right. I'm not going to ask you any of those questions, sir. Did you ever listen to the 911 call?
[02:25:35] Speaker 11: No, sir.
[02:25:37] Speaker 13: That's something that's typically – and if you don't know, you say that. I'm not on an investigation site. That's typically preserved and gotten by law enforcement in a case. True?
[02:25:47] Speaker 8: If necessary, yes.
[02:25:48] Speaker 13: Okay. And again, that would be some officer who's doing the investigation to determine whether –
[02:25:53] Speaker 11: That would be the detective's determination.
[02:25:55] Speaker 13: And in this case, the lead detective changed, but it wasn't one time Detective Ogden.
[02:26:00] Speaker 7: I'm not aware of the change. I know originally it was Detective Ogden. Okay.
[02:26:05] Speaker 13: Okay. Now, you were asked some questions by the prosecutor about whether – the blood on the gun. Do you remember that? Yes, sir. And were you aware that Ms. Bowles admitted that she touched the gun?
[02:26:26] Speaker 7: I can't say with certainty.
[02:26:30] Speaker 13: Were you told – just think back. If you don't remember, just say I don't recall.
[02:26:34] Speaker 11: I believe so, but I can't say with 100% certainty, sir.
[02:26:37] Speaker 13: Okay. And that would have came again from Detective Ogden? Yes, sir. All right. And there was blood – suspected blood. I mean, we made that clear, I think – on the gun, right? Yes, sir. As if somebody touched the blood. Yes, sir. Who was a source of blood, right? Yes, sir. And that means that either – and I'm just using Ms. Bowles' name now. That means that either Ms. Bowles is bleeding herself, right?
[02:26:59] Speaker 10: Correct.
[02:27:00] Speaker 13: Or she touched something that's bloody and then it's a transfer. Yes, sir. It's just like if I put my hand in wet paint and then I put my hand on my suit coat, I may transfer – I never came in contact on my suit coat with the paint in the can, but I transferred onto my arm with my right hand. Yes, sir. And the fact that the blood was on the gun would corroborate, meaning it would support that Ms. Bowles touched the gun if she was the source of the blood that touched the gun. True?
[02:27:39] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:27:40] Speaker 13: If other people would have touched the gun with bloody hands, obviously it may be someone else, right?
[02:27:46] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:27:47] Speaker 13: And the gun – certain parts are rigid, you said, with the prosecutor. Yes, sir. Other parts are smooth, correct?
[02:27:57] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:27:58] Speaker 13: And if wanted, if the lead detective wanted, somebody can try to gain fingerprints off the gun. Is that true? Yes, sir. And the fingerprints can also potentially go in the trigger guard area where the trigger is, right? Yes, sir. Okay. And that's not your call. That's the lead detective's call. Correct. I want to talk to you about – and I'd like to put on some gloves with the court's permission, which I don't have. Can I borrow some of your gloves?
[02:28:28] Speaker 11: Yes. They're not mine.
[02:28:30] Speaker 13: Can I borrow some of your gloves? No, right there, sir. Yeah, may I approach? Sure. And I'm going to look at, with your permission, states exhibit 170 and 170A, as in ELISA, which should be the firearm in evidence, okay? Okay. And if you – I will not ask you to put on a glove, but if you need to, if you need to touch it, would you please just tell the court and the court's permission? You can handle these?
[02:28:55] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:28:56] Speaker 13: Of course. And the weapons have been made safe?
[02:28:58] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:28:59] Speaker ?: All right. Go ahead.
[02:29:00] Speaker 13: Go ahead. Go ahead.
[02:29:02] Speaker ?: Thank you.
[02:29:32] Speaker 13: I am touching and holding, and it is clearly not engaged, true? True. Okay, and I'm still not going to point it at anyone, but I mean the cylinder's out of the...
[02:29:53] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:29:54] Speaker 6: Right, okay. Also, it's obvious, but this is a safety mechanism. It is. It's a lock.
[02:30:02] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:30:02] Speaker 13: And it goes through the...
[02:30:05] Speaker 8: Through the sound, or through the barrel. The muzzle of the gun. Yes.
[02:30:10] Speaker 13: The arrow of the gun, the muzzle of the gun.
[02:30:11] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:30:12] Speaker 13: And that's just... We are taking the gun very seriously.
[02:30:16] Speaker 8: Yes.
[02:30:18] Speaker 13: I do want to ask you, though, and if you need to touch it, you do it, but do you notice this item I'm pointing to? Do you know what it's called?
[02:30:29] Speaker 11: I don't know what it's called.
[02:30:31] Speaker 13: Well, let's call it a rod. Okay. Is that fair?
[02:30:34] Speaker 12: And you see what I'm pointing to? So just for the record, Your Honor, and I hope the jurors conceded with the court's permission. Thank you. This is something that's coming from... Do you know what this is called? A cylinder?
[02:30:47] Speaker 10: Yes.
[02:30:47] Speaker ?: Okay.
[02:30:48] Speaker 12: And a revolver when the trigger, which is here, right?
[02:30:51] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:30:52] Speaker 13: And when the trigger's pulled, the hammer can be cocked back or gunned forward, and then that strike ignites the projectile that comes through and exits the end of gun for the battle.
[02:31:08] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[02:31:11] Speaker 13: If the gun was to work, to fire, this cylinder has to be engaged into the gun itself. It does. And that would make... And I'm going to ask you to show the jurors with the court's permission. That would make this cylinder almost equidistant with the very end of this gun. Is that true? And I'm going to let you see it.
[02:31:33] Speaker 8: I believe it would be pretty close. Yes.
[02:31:35] Speaker 12: May I approach you? Sure. Your Honor, May.
[02:31:42] Speaker 11: Yes, sir. It would be almost equal.
[02:31:45] Speaker 13: And I can't really 100% put it down because... Does that look almost identical?
[02:31:50] Speaker 8: Yes, it does.
[02:31:51] Speaker 13: Can you just show the jurors with the court's permission? You come in front of the jury?
[02:31:55] Speaker 8: Show them...
[02:31:56] Speaker 13: The distance. If it's engaged properly, explain it. Sure.
[02:32:02] Speaker 12: Your Honor, may you step down this couple of days? May we approach the jury funds here? Yes. I think you can just...
[02:32:12] Speaker ?: We'll do it in sections.
[02:32:16] Speaker 6: So we'll do it in the first section. We'll do it in the second section. Would you? It's up to you. Yes. We'll do it in the second section.
[02:32:25] Speaker ?: Go ahead. Thank you.
[02:32:25] Speaker 6: Just make sure that everyone can see this. And we'll do it in the second section. Thank you.
[02:32:43] Speaker 10: This is the part that he was talking about. This is the... I'm sorry. This is the cylinder. This is the barrel. And this is the part of the bar that he is talking about.
[02:32:59] Speaker 12: And what you're doing now, just for the record, you put the firearm that's disengaged,
[02:33:06] Speaker 13: you put it down on the jury rail, and you're saying that they're almost... I'm not asking against both, but they're almost... They come to the same court. Almost, yes. And can you describe to the jurors the shape of the rod, the end of the rod that comes down? It's very much.
[02:33:22] Speaker 10: It's circular.
[02:33:24] Speaker 13: Very normal.
[02:33:25] Speaker 6: Can you just hold it up to the track? And I'm just going to point to you. Can I close your teeth? Is that okay? I'll put you on that.
[02:33:36] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[02:33:37] Speaker 6: Can you just show a moment? No. Okay.
[02:33:39] Speaker ?: Okay.
[02:33:41] Speaker 6: Can you do the same thing over there?
[02:33:44] Speaker ?: No.
[02:33:45] Speaker 6: Thank you so much. I will not answer the both of you can.
[02:34:08] Speaker 12: Now, without the safety here, if I had this gun pointed at me with my left hand, I'm pointing
[02:34:24] Speaker 13: at me, disengaged, with my left hand, this cylinder and the muzzle of the gun. The muzzle of the gun is the end of the gun. Is that fair to say?
[02:34:33] Speaker 8: It's the barrel, yes.
[02:34:35] Speaker 13: The very end of the projectile comes down. Sorry.
[02:34:39] Speaker 12: If I had it pointed like this, if then somebody tried to grab me to stop me from, you know, got physically suicide, and I went backwards, and I turned it upside down, this straw they're
[02:34:55] Speaker 13: calling, the round piece, if it went into my nose, it would be striking my nose back here. If that, you know, you could do different ways, but you're all true, right?
[02:35:07] Speaker 7: I can't say with certainty, but possibly.
[02:35:11] Speaker 13: If my finger was on the trigger, and I was falling backwards, can I have the gun like this? Does the gun so fire, you know I have it upside down? Yes. Have you ever seen any autopsy photographs where there is an abrasion to the right nostril
[02:35:30] Speaker 12: of the deceased?
[02:35:31] Speaker 5: No, sir.
[02:35:32] Speaker 12: No one included you in that?
[02:35:34] Speaker 5: No, sir.
[02:35:35] Speaker 12: Did anyone even talk to you about that? Like, it's an interesting problem?
[02:35:38] Speaker 10: No, sir.
[02:35:39] Speaker 13: I'm going to pick the staff. Yes, sir. Do you know whether anyone tested to see whose DNA is on this triangle?
[02:35:48] Speaker 10: I don't know what testing was done. I know there's a sticker from GBI on here, but I can't advise what testing was done.
[02:35:54] Speaker 6: So you don't know why it wasn't done or if it was done? I don't know. That's beyond you. Yes, sir. I'm putting it right back. Yes, sir.
[02:36:10] Speaker 13: I want to talk with you about the McDonald's cup. I assume that they're seeing this. I'm going to show you a series of photographs. These are, don't have the glare, just the other pictures out, so a lot of them, repeat, some of them are maybe new though, okay? Yes, sir. Some of them are graphic.
[02:36:55] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:36:55] Speaker 13: You want me to have a moment?
[02:37:10] Speaker 12: You want me to have a moment? Yes, sir.
[02:37:15] Speaker ?: Yes, sir. Thank you.
[02:37:47] Speaker 6: Thank you.
[02:38:17] Speaker ?: Thank you.
[02:38:47] Speaker 12: I apologize, Your Honor. Thank you.
[02:39:20] Speaker ?: Thank you.
[02:39:50] Speaker 12: Thank you.
[02:40:20] Speaker 13: Can you look at these and whatever you look at, just announce what exhibit number? Okay. I'm taking these back.
[02:40:27] Speaker 8: Yes.
[02:40:28] Speaker 13: And tell me whether you recognize the exhibit numbers. If you don't recognize any, just say that as well. I recognize exhibit 60, it's going to be the same question to everything, is it true and accurate, based upon your memory and best knowledge of what you depicted at the time of taking the photograph?
[02:40:51] Speaker 11: Yes, sir, it is.
[02:40:53] Speaker 13: And then that would be the same question for all of you, you can just say same answer or, you know, not a different answer.
[02:41:00] Speaker 11: Exhibit 57, same answer. Exhibit 40, same answer. Exhibit 40, same answer. Exhibit 39, I have not reviewed this photograph. Exhibit 39, I have not reviewed this photograph.
[02:41:31] Speaker 13: You can do it over the break if that's what you need to do.
[02:41:36] Speaker 11: Yes, sir. Exhibit 36, same answer. Exhibit 24, same answer. Exhibit 21, same answer. Exhibit 17, same answer. And Exhibit 16, same answer.
[02:42:13] Speaker 13: May I approach, Your Honor? I would like to move for the admission of, and I can announce them, but the ones that were recognized by Ms. Carter, except I am not moving at this time for Exhibit Number 30. Thank you.
[02:42:32] Speaker 2: Any of you guys? No, Your Honor. Mayor Perci?
[02:42:40] Speaker 12: Mayor Perci? Of course.
[02:43:01] Speaker 13: On the court's screen is Ms. Bowles' number 16, admitted into evidence. The court allowed us to display, since it's in evidence. And can you, if you don't mind, zoom in on, do you see the cup in the picture?
[02:43:21] Speaker 11: Yes, sir.
[02:43:22] Speaker 13: Can you zoom in as best you can to that cup there? And, Sheriff, is there any way that you can dim a light? If, with the court's permission. Your Honor, is that okay?
[02:43:33] Speaker 2: It is.
[02:43:34] Speaker 13: Thank you. Now, I know that as you zoom in, sometimes it gets blurred, so it may not be great, but it's best we can. You see, and if we need to zoom out, please tell us, but this is what we're calling the McDonald's Cup. Is that true?
[02:44:00] Speaker 9: It appears to be.
[02:44:01] Speaker 13: I couldn't hear you. I could not hear you.
[02:44:04] Speaker 9: It appears to be.
[02:44:05] Speaker 13: Do you want a different photograph? Yes, sir. Can you try a different one? And just announce which one it is, if you don't mind.
[02:44:16] Speaker 14: 60.
[02:44:17] Speaker 13: Ms. Bowles' number 16. It's already been in evidence. Does that give you a better perspective?
[02:44:27] Speaker 11: Yes, sir. It is, in fact, a McDonald's Cup.
[02:44:30] Speaker 13: Okay. So, we'll just use this one since it's here, okay? Yes, sir. Now, by the time you took the photograph, it's your memory and note-taking and testimony that there's no hard ice. I guess ice is always hard. So, there's no ice.
[02:44:45] Speaker 10: Correct.
[02:44:45] Speaker 13: Okay. So, whatever, and I'm not asking you to go by anyone else's testimony, but if there was ice, it had melted by the time you took this photograph.
[02:44:55] Speaker 8: Correct.
[02:44:55] Speaker 13: Or by the time you saw the image.
[02:44:57] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:44:58] Speaker 13: Okay. And this cup, I know it's not preserved, but do you see any defects in the cup? Like, you know, it has any indentation anywhere around the opening or on the sides that we have the photograph?
[02:45:21] Speaker 11: Not that are visible in that photograph.
[02:45:23] Speaker 13: And it's interesting because I'm assuming that if you would have seen a defect in the cup, like it had fallen and made a mark, you know, the bottom crushes in or the side crushes in, that would have been something you would have photographed or maybe even taken the cup. Is that true? Yes, sir. So, based upon your work, experience, training, and what you did here, the cup is, as it appears, there was no damage to the cup. True?
[02:45:49] Speaker 11: True.
[02:45:50] Speaker 13: And then it looks to me, I am not telling you, you know, go by me because I'm always wrong, but does that look like there may be some sort of remnants of liquid inside the cup? Is that fair to say? And if it's not, just say, I don't know, it could be a shadow. I don't want to...
[02:46:05] Speaker 11: There appears to still be some liquid in the cup.
[02:46:08] Speaker 13: And we're talking about right there.
[02:46:11] Speaker 11: Yes, sir.
[02:46:12] Speaker 13: And we're not... You don't know what the substance would have been, do you?
[02:46:17] Speaker 8: No, sir.
[02:46:18] Speaker 13: I mean, it could have been lemonade to Coca-Cola to water.
[02:46:21] Speaker 8: Fat.
[02:46:21] Speaker 13: Right. Okay. All right, if you can announce the cup that you had, the picture that you had up before, what number that is? Sixty. Thank you, sir. And would you zoom in again the way you did? So, just now we're better oriented. Is that fair to say?
[02:46:38] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:46:39] Speaker 13: And the bottom of the cup, same thing? There's no defect, demarcation, anything like that?
[02:46:46] Speaker 11: Not that I can say, no.
[02:46:47] Speaker 13: Right, and not that you remember.
[02:46:49] Speaker 11: Correct.
[02:46:50] Speaker 13: If there was, maybe you would have... Well, I should say maybe. You would have. Yes. You would have noted that. True? Yes, sir. So, you know, based upon what you do, there was nothing wrong with that cup. And when I say nothing wrong, no defect of the cup, right? Correct. And it was just somehow on its side when you got it. Yes, sir. And then can you put up another one and announce which exhibit we're talking about?
[02:47:15] Speaker 3: 24?
[02:47:20] Speaker 13: And this is a, you took, and you take pictures for different reasons, but the cup just happens to be in this picture. True?
[02:47:32] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:47:33] Speaker 13: And it appears, I am not saying it is, but it appears that there may be some sort of darker substance on this carpeted area or this surface versus over here. Does that look like?
[02:47:46] Speaker 7: I did note in my report that there appeared to be liquid on the floor in the area of the cup.
[02:47:50] Speaker 13: And since we apply logic, potentially the cup had some liquid in it?
[02:47:54] Speaker 8: Yes.
[02:47:55] Speaker 13: The cup was somehow turned over or toppled and the liquid comes out of the cup because the top is no longer on it?
[02:48:01] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:48:02] Speaker 13: Okay. And you don't know if that cup was placed on the ground before it toppled over, do you?
[02:48:10] Speaker 8: I can only tell you what I observed when I arrived.
[02:48:12] Speaker 13: Right. And the answer to my question is, you don't know how the cup got in it. You don't know.
[02:48:16] Speaker 8: No, sir.
[02:48:17] Speaker 13: It could have been pretending, pretending this is the cup. It could have been that someone, whomever, put the cup down and later somebody else somehow, intentionally or unintentionally, knocked it over somehow. True?
[02:48:30] Speaker 12: True.
[02:48:31] Speaker 13: Now, did you, were you ever asked to be part of an experiment, to use that cup or a similar cup, go to McDonald's, the same McDonald's, get that same size cup, put some sort of liquid in it with some ice, with that surface and drop the cup and determine whether the cup would be dented?
[02:48:55] Speaker 8: No, sir.
[02:48:55] Speaker 13: That was never even discussed?
[02:48:57] Speaker 8: No, sir.
[02:48:57] Speaker ?: Okay.
[02:48:58] Speaker 13: Can you put the next one and announce what it is? This is the McDonald's bag that is laying to the left side of Mr. Akers. Fair?
[02:49:18] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:49:19] Speaker 13: And you noted this appears to be a left hand print. Is that true?
[02:49:30] Speaker 8: I didn't specify which hand, but I did note that it was, appeared to be a bloody hand print.
[02:49:36] Speaker 13: Okay. Okay. You see the fingers? One, two, three, four. Yes, sir. Okay. And then this part also, and just to be, because we have to be clear, we're talking about lies here, right?
[02:49:49] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:49:51] Speaker 13: This is, we believe this to be blood. We're assuming it's blood, right?
[02:49:56] Speaker 9: It appears to be.
[02:49:57] Speaker 13: And it could be tested to determine if it's blood, right? Yes, sir. And it could be then tested to determine possibly whose blood it is, right?
[02:50:05] Speaker 11: There was never any question, based on the investigative details I provided, whose blood was anywhere in the residence or how it got there.
[02:50:15] Speaker 13: Good, because the only person that is a source of blood is a mistaken person, true?
[02:50:18] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:50:19] Speaker 13: And Ms. Bowles, to your knowledge, no injuries, right?
[02:50:24] Speaker 8: I didn't see her, none that I was advised of.
[02:50:27] Speaker 13: Okay. And when I say injuries, I should be more specific. I'm not saying bruising. I'm saying blood, a source of blood, not that you were advised of.
[02:50:33] Speaker 11: Not that I was advised of.
[02:50:34] Speaker 13: Okay. Now, this bag, the McDonald's bag, had content.
[02:50:40] Speaker 8: It did.
[02:50:40] Speaker 13: And you discussed that. Go ahead.
[02:50:45] Speaker 8: It appeared to be an uneaten meal. I believe there was an additional photograph of the contents of the bag.
[02:50:51] Speaker 13: Yeah.
[02:51:01] Speaker 6: I'm going to just see. You want me to approach? May I approach you? Yes, sir. I don't think I showed you.
[02:51:15] Speaker 13: Just tell us and announce what exhibit number, whether you recognize the exhibit.
[02:51:26] Speaker 8: Exhibit 57, yes. Exhibit 40, yes. And exhibit 36, yes.
[02:51:37] Speaker 13: And do they accurately depict what you saw on or around the 22nd day of December 2019?
[02:51:43] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:51:44] Speaker 13: Your honor, I move for the admission of those exhibits that were just written to the record by Ms. Carter.
[02:51:51] Speaker 4: Any admission? No, you're on. Go ahead. Those are...
[02:51:54] Speaker 12: May I approach? Yes, sir. May I approach your honor? Yes, sir.
[02:51:59] Speaker ?: All right. Thank you. Excuse me. Thank you. Yes, sir.
[02:52:03] Speaker 12: May I approach you, sir?
[02:52:05] Speaker 13: Can you display and announce which one you're displaying? Which exhibit?
[02:52:14] Speaker 4: 36.
[02:52:16] Speaker 13: Okay. And this is what you were just talking about, that there's content inside the bag, right?
[02:52:21] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[02:52:22] Speaker 13: Okay. And we see in this picture, specifically, that it appears to be French fry, and do you know what that is right there?
[02:52:35] Speaker 11: A catch-up packet.
[02:52:36] Speaker 13: Okay. And underneath it, if anything?
[02:52:41] Speaker 11: Possibly an additional catch-up packet. I can't say for sure until the contents are removed.
[02:52:46] Speaker 13: Okay. And then the next one, if you don't mind?
[02:52:53] Speaker 3: 40.
[02:53:03] Speaker 13: Same bag, different angle of the photograph, Chris?
[02:53:05] Speaker 2: Yes, sir.
[02:53:06] Speaker 13: And if somebody pressed their hand, left or right, whatever, I know you said you weren't sure which one, but to the bottom of this bag, that would force content to come towards the top of the bag. Is that true?
[02:53:24] Speaker 11: It would either squish the contents or force it to come to the top. Squish? Yes.
[02:53:29] Speaker 13: Okay. And the next one, if you don't mind?
[02:53:36] Speaker 3: 57.
[02:53:39] Speaker 13: And this has a quarter pounder with cheese written on it. Do you see that?
[02:53:44] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:53:45] Speaker 13: And it looks like the box, I guess, is a little bit, the carton, I guess, is a little bit open, and there's food here with a napkin underneath. Is that all true?
[02:53:57] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:53:58] Speaker 13: And it's still around the McDonald's bag, but it's protruding outside, right?
[02:54:02] Speaker 11: I believe that was a later picture that we took showing part of the content.
[02:54:06] Speaker 13: And I was going to say, it's been moved the bag. Yes.
[02:54:09] Speaker 11: At that point, I believe it had been moved.
[02:54:11] Speaker 13: If you can zoom out of it, if you don't mind, investigator. This is actually – can you zoom out any more? Okay, I thought there was more content. This is actually not next to the deceased body where it was taken. True?
[02:54:38] Speaker 11: True.
[02:54:39] Speaker 13: Okay. And just for the jurors, no one's trying to mislead anybody. Eventually, you have to see what the content is.
[02:54:46] Speaker 11: Yes.
[02:54:47] Speaker 13: So that's why you take the first pictures of where you originally found it, and then somebody picked up the bag and separated the content a little bit, at least, just to show the inside. Okay. Now, the bag – thank you very much – that is originally the way you saw it next to the deceased?
[02:55:06] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:55:09] Speaker 13: You don't know how that bag got on the ground, do you?
[02:55:11] Speaker 11: No, sir.
[02:55:12] Speaker 13: You don't know if it was placed on the ground, do you?
[02:55:14] Speaker 11: I can't say with any certainty.
[02:55:16] Speaker 13: You don't know if it fell from a hand?
[02:55:19] Speaker 11: I don't know, sir.
[02:55:20] Speaker 13: You just know what you saw.
[02:55:22] Speaker 11: Correct.
[02:55:23] Speaker 13: And you're not saying to this jury that that bag wasn't already on the floor before the deceased was shot? You're not saying?
[02:55:29] Speaker 11: No, sir, I'm not.
[02:55:30] Speaker 13: And you're not saying that the bag was dropped?
[02:55:33] Speaker 11: No, sir, I'm not.
[02:55:33] Speaker 13: We just don't know?
[02:55:35] Speaker 8: I don't know.
[02:55:35] Speaker ?: Okay.
[02:55:37] Speaker 13: We deal in fact?
[02:55:38] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:55:39] Speaker ?: Okay.
[02:55:40] Speaker 13: All right. Do you have the next exhibit? Do you see the hat in Ms. Bowles number 17?
[02:55:57] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[02:55:58] Speaker 13: And that's, I would call it like a, I just call it a baseball hat. Is that fair to say?
[02:56:03] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[02:56:05] Speaker 13: Do you know whether that hat had any blood on it?
[02:56:13] Speaker 11: Not that I observed.
[02:56:14] Speaker 13: Right. Because if it did have any blood, you would have zoomed in, taken a close-up of the hat with blood.
[02:56:20] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[02:56:22] Speaker 13: So, potentially, that hat was not on, the face area is pretty bloody, right?
[02:56:28] Speaker 8: Yes, it is.
[02:56:29] Speaker 13: Okay. And I'm not asking you to guess. Just say, I don't know. But there's a possibility that that hat was already on the ground before the gun was fired.
[02:56:37] Speaker 8: That I don't know.
[02:56:39] Speaker 13: You don't want to go there?
[02:56:40] Speaker 8: No.
[02:56:41] Speaker 13: Okay. No, that's good. That's good. And you don't know how long that hat was on the floor, do you?
[02:56:46] Speaker 11: No, sir.
[02:56:46] Speaker 13: You don't know if it was thrown there or a place that, you know, or just walk in a room and throw your keys and hat down. You don't know.
[02:56:52] Speaker 11: No, sir. I can only say it was there when I walked in.
[02:56:54] Speaker 13: And you're not saying that it got to that area during the time of the fatal wound. You don't know. I don't know. It could have been in that area before the gun was even produced.
[02:57:07] Speaker 8: Yes.
[02:57:08] Speaker ?: Okay.
[02:57:11] Speaker 13: This item right here, do you know what this is?
[02:57:19] Speaker 11: No, sir. I can't say with certainty from that picture.
[02:57:22] Speaker 13: Okay. We'll come back to other pictures. Okay. Let's go to the top. You see the top of the McDonald's cup? I'm calling it McDonald's cup. Is that okay? Okay. Can you zoom in on that if you don't mind? This is Ms. Ball 17. I'll call it the top of the cup, a plastic covering, I guess?
[02:58:21] Speaker 11: Yes, sir. Yes.
[02:58:22] Speaker 13: And it has a straw, correct?
[02:58:24] Speaker 11: Correct.
[02:58:25] Speaker 13: And there may be a substance. And if you don't know, just say, I don't want to speak on that. Does this look like there may be a substance inside the area of the lid of the cups?
[02:58:41] Speaker 8: As far as on the lid? As far as on the lid, I don't know, sir.
[02:58:43] Speaker 13: We don't know. Okay. That's fine. And again, if you would have seen any damage to the top side of blood on it, you would have made note of that. Maybe even collected. Yes, sir. Maybe even collected it. Fair to step.
[02:58:53] Speaker 6: Yes, sir.
[02:58:54] Speaker 13: Okay. Okay. Okay. With regards to the liquid, and if you don't know, just say, I don't know, but the discoloration, is that caused from your touch, from your observation from being there, do you see a discoloration between, let's say, the area I'm pointing to on Ms. Bowles' number 17? Is that right? The number? Investigators said? Yes.
[02:59:25] Speaker 1: 17.
[02:59:26] Speaker 13: You see, like, over here, it looks lighter than over here. And I understand the shadows. Do you know if this is caused by a witness, or if you don't know, just say, I don't know.
[02:59:35] Speaker 11: I don't know with certainty.
[02:59:37] Speaker 13: Okay.
[02:59:39] Speaker ?: Okay.
[02:59:42] Speaker 13: All right. Thank you very much, sir. I want to go to the bathroom sink. Yes, sir. If I may. That's the state exhibit number. Let me go get that. Was Ms. Bowles in the house when you were in the house?
[03:00:03] Speaker 11: No, sir.
[03:00:24] Speaker 6: We're going to talk about 12.30. I'm going to ask the other question to Ms. Ray.
[03:00:29] Speaker 13: I'll be organized and not waste. I will come back to the bathroom sink.
[03:00:35] Speaker 10: Yes, ma'am.
[03:00:36] Speaker 13: I just want to find the exhibit so I don't sit here and waste time.
[03:00:39] Speaker 10: Yes, sir.
[03:00:39] Speaker 13: All right. I want to talk to you about Ms. Bowles. So, and I misunderstood. You were told that she was vomiting in the living room area.
[03:00:52] Speaker 10: Correct.
[03:00:53] Speaker 13: Okay. But you didn't hear it and you didn't see it.
[03:00:55] Speaker 11: Okay. No, sir.
[03:00:57] Speaker 13: With regards to Ms. Bowles, she can be, and I'm not trying to insult her at all, but she could be evidence, value of evidence as well physically, right?
[03:01:09] Speaker 8: What do you mean by that?
[03:01:10] Speaker 13: Clothing. Her clothing may be important to collect.
[03:01:14] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:01:14] Speaker 13: And this is something that we do, well, I don't do it, but you do, and law enforcement all the time. You try to collect people's clothing because it can tell the story that we're talking about. That's why we're all here. And Ms. Bowles was clearly in the house with law enforcement before you arrived. And you know that for certain because you were told that, right? Yes, sir. And no one ever told you or asked you, I don't mean told, asked you to photograph her clothing, did they?
[03:01:47] Speaker 8: I was never anywhere near her, so I would have been unable to photograph her clothing.
[03:01:52] Speaker 13: Well, let me ask you two series of questions to follow that up, okay?
[03:01:55] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:01:56] Speaker 13: Understanding you weren't in the home when Ms. Bowles was in the home. Yes, sir. I got that. But it's not like Detective Ogden or someone else asked you to say, hey, Ms. Bowles was taken, you know she was taken to the hospital, right?
[03:02:10] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:02:11] Speaker 13: She was taken to the hospital, but we had her change before taking to the hospital. So her clothing is in the gauge, the young son's bedroom. No one asked you to do that.
[03:02:22] Speaker 8: No, sir.
[03:02:23] Speaker 13: And that could be done, right? People can ask people to change to collect evidence, right?
[03:02:28] Speaker 6: Yes, sir.
[03:02:30] Speaker 13: And that's done all the time because sometimes even the clothing has to be taken because the clothing shows a story, right? Yes, sir. And at the hospital, Ms. Bowles is with law enforcement before taking to the hospital. You know that.
[03:02:43] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:02:44] Speaker 13: And at the hospital, somebody could have had Ms. Bowles, you know, brought a change of clothing from the house and had her change and collect her clothing and then ask you later to photograph the truth.
[03:02:56] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:02:57] Speaker 13: Was that done?
[03:02:58] Speaker 8: No, sir.
[03:02:59] Speaker 13: Ms. Bowles' face.
[03:03:06] Speaker 8: Her? I'm sorry. Face. Face? Yeah. Okay.
[03:03:10] Speaker 13: That's a pretty bloody scene. I don't mean that it's all over the walls. I'm confident you've seen much worse. But there's a lot of blood on Mr. Akers' face.
[03:03:21] Speaker 11: Yes, sir.
[03:03:22] Speaker 13: He was pouring out blood. Is that tragically true?
[03:03:26] Speaker 11: He had a lot of blood on him, yes, sir.
[03:03:28] Speaker 13: I mean, it's like clumps of blood in certain areas, right?
[03:03:32] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:03:39] Speaker 13: Did anyone ask you to photograph Ms. Bowles' person, her face, to see if there was any blood in her hair or face? Did anyone do that?
[03:03:50] Speaker 11: No, sir. Again, I never saw her. She was at the hospital already.
[03:03:55] Speaker 13: My question's the other side, because I understand that. But did anyone ask you to?
[03:03:59] Speaker 8: No, sir.
[03:04:00] Speaker 13: You would have done that, wouldn't you?
[03:04:01] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:04:03] Speaker 13: And did anyone ask you to photograph Ms. Bowles' arms, hands, legs, feet, to determine what happened to you?
[03:04:15] Speaker 8: No, sir.
[03:04:16] Speaker 13: And if Ms. Bowles tried to take the gun out of Mr. Akers' hand and the gun got off and went off, and their Akers starts bleeding, and Ms. Bowles fell on top of Mr. Akers, because when he took the fatal bullet, that might be able to tell a story, if that's true or not. Her clothing, her appearance, all true?
[03:04:35] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:04:36] Speaker 13: In addition, if Ms. Bowles would have done chest compressions on Mr. Akers after the gunshot got entered his body, that may tell a story, right?
[03:04:52] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:04:53] Speaker 13: And you were particular to ensure, I noticed, that you photographed Mr. Akers as well as his clothing. True?
[03:05:03] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:05:03] Speaker 13: And you also knew that the coroner, you were not leaving that location until your photographs of Mr. Akers was complete. True?
[03:05:14] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:05:15] Speaker 13: And you made the coroner, I don't mean rudely, but you made the coroner wait for your job to be done. True?
[03:05:21] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:05:22] Speaker 13: And you didn't move and didn't give authority, or the detectives, to move Mr. Akers until you finished imaging, picturing him, the way he was found laying down, right?
[03:05:33] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:05:34] Speaker 13: Because all that blood on his clothing and his face and his beard and mustache, God forbid, his hair, that all tells a story, right?
[03:05:42] Speaker 1: Yes, sir.
[03:05:43] Speaker 13: And when I say tell a story, I mean, it tells the truth, right? Yes, sir. It's evidence that can be tested in 2019 and 2026 to say, this happened because look at this, right?
[03:05:57] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:05:57] Speaker 13: I mean, direction of blood tells a story. I know you're not a blood expert, but direction of blood tells a story, right?
[03:06:02] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:06:04] Speaker 13: And like you see on the McDonald's bag, if Ms. Bowles was compressing the chest of Mr. Akers, there may be evidence that her handprint is actually on his shirt or his sweatshirt. True?
[03:06:19] Speaker 8: Yes.
[03:06:19] Speaker 13: And that's what you did. That's why you said, I need to do this, right?
[03:06:23] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:06:24] Speaker 13: And then when you did allow the coroner to take the Mr. Akers in a body bag, a disaster bag, that's what it's called, right?
[03:06:35] Speaker 8: A body bag.
[03:06:36] Speaker 13: Yes, sir. It's a total disaster, but a body bag. You ensure that all the clothing and the contents of that clothing, I heard you say, anything in his pockets, even if you took a picture of it, it goes along to the medical examiner, right?
[03:06:54] Speaker 11: The personal effects are usually provided to the coroner. I can't advise if she provides them to the medical examiner or not. I just know our practice was to provide them to the coroner, anything that was in the pockets, with the exception of the cell phone.
[03:07:08] Speaker 13: Do you know whether the coroner brings, transports Ms. Akers to the medical examiner's office? And if you don't know, just add that one.
[03:07:18] Speaker 8: Sometimes she would directly transport, or other times there would be a transport company that was arranged.
[03:07:26] Speaker 13: Okay. All right. Whose job is it detailed? I'm not asking you to beat up anybody. I'm just asking, whose detail is it to say, I need photographs of Lacey Bowles, the way she appeared in the house?
[03:07:45] Speaker 8: Usually the lead detective will request that.
[03:07:48] Speaker 13: And even if you're not on the scene when Ms. Bowles was there, do law enforcement officers, if you know, have cell phones where they can video or photograph? I know they're not you, but do they have that capability on December 22nd, 2019?
[03:08:03] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:08:06] Speaker 13: Whose job was it to preserve Lacey Bowles' clothing that she was wearing that night, or that morning, I guess?
[03:08:14] Speaker 8: I don't even know how to answer that. She was already at the emergency room when I had arrived, or had already been transported when I had arrived, and I was never requested to go there.
[03:08:25] Speaker 13: I'm not asking you. I know you would have done it. You already said if you were requested, you would have gone. True.
[03:08:30] Speaker 4: Yes, sir.
[03:08:31] Speaker 13: I'm saying whose job responsibility was it to collect Lacey Bowles' clothing if it needed to be collected?
[03:08:39] Speaker 2: Usually if... I don't want to roll on that. I think she answered it. I think the answer was I don't know.
[03:08:48] Speaker 13: Would it be the lead detective?
[03:08:52] Speaker 11: With her being transported, I really can't say it could be the lead detective. It could be a responding deputy, whoever a supervisor deems appropriate. I don't know.
[03:09:00] Speaker 13: Okay, but somebody.
[03:09:02] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:09:03] Speaker 13: It should have been done.
[03:09:04] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:09:05] Speaker 13: No doubt about it.
[03:09:06] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:09:07] Speaker 13: Because otherwise, we're guessing, right?
[03:09:09] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:09:10] Speaker 13: And we don't guess in courtrooms, do we?
[03:09:12] Speaker 8: No, sir.
[03:09:18] Speaker 13: I want to talk with you about that. It's going to take me a minute, but I want to go back to the windowsill. Yes, sir. We'll show the jurors. I know that the ensemble court said we have just before lunch a few minutes. Do you remember those photographs as you sit here now?
[03:09:36] Speaker 8: I remember the photographs we've already reviewed. There were a couple of them.
[03:09:40] Speaker 13: Okay. I'm going to show you the photographs after the lunch break, okay? And I'll organize it. Let's talk about Ms. Bowles' driver's license. Do you remember?
[03:09:50] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:09:50] Speaker 13: Talking about that. And I believe it's State's Exhibit. May I approach the court court? Yes, sir.
[03:10:03] Speaker 6: Do you remember the State's Exhibit number 120? Yes, sir. Already in that case? Yes, sir. You're on a man with it, too. If I assume, would you mind just?
[03:10:13] Speaker 13: Now, did you put, and when I say you, I'm talking about you, personally. Did you move the driver's license before taking the picture? And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm just saying, did you do it just to orient the picture, or was it found exactly where you took the picture?
[03:10:29] Speaker 11: That's where it was found there.
[03:10:30] Speaker 13: Okay, and this is Ms. Bowles, right?
[03:10:35] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:10:35] Speaker 13: Or at least it appears to be the driver's license in Ms. Bowles. And at the time, she would have been 36 years of age. Does that look right? 2019, December?
[03:10:46] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:10:48] Speaker 13: And according to this, I know it could be wrong, but she's about 5 foot 4 inches tall?
[03:10:53] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:10:54] Speaker 13: And weighed about 110 pounds. Yes. According to the license?
[03:10:58] Speaker 11: According to the license, yes, sir.
[03:11:00] Speaker 13: Some licenses are good for 10 years or something, so people's weight may change, right? Yes. That's what it says. And the reason you found that to be important is because that windowsill had some evidence on it or near it. True?
[03:11:15] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:11:16] Speaker 13: And we're talking about the upstairs bedroom of Mr. Akers and Ms. Bowles. Yes. That's where you found it. And you also took, and do you see it here? Did you notice any blood around the windowsill and up the side of it? It's a different picture. If you need to see it, I'm going to show you different.
[03:11:38] Speaker 8: From a different picture.
[03:11:40] Speaker 11: There was DNA evidence or biological evidence on the right side of the window.
[03:11:47] Speaker 13: And how about Ms. Bowles' cell phone?
[03:11:51] Speaker 11: I did not see her cell phone. I was told from the investigation that she had gone to the bedroom to get her cell phone, but I never saw it.
[03:12:00] Speaker 13: And were you, and that's because she was already out of the house? Correct. Presumably, I'm not asking you to guess, presumably someone or she may have taken a cell phone from the house.
[03:12:08] Speaker 8: I don't know.
[03:12:09] Speaker 13: We don't. Perfect answer. Do you know whether you see the items in the exhibit on this Honorable Court screen? Do you know whether that's blood? Or it's suspected blood, let's say that. And if you don't know, say I don't know.
[03:12:29] Speaker 11: Where are you referring to?
[03:12:35] Speaker 13: Do you know what this, this?
[03:12:39] Speaker 11: No, sir, I don't.
[03:12:40] Speaker 13: We're not saying that's blood. That could be just whatever, dirt for all we know, right?
[03:12:45] Speaker 8: It didn't appear to be at the scene, but I don't know for sure.
[03:12:50] Speaker 13: And the reason why you said it is because you would have taken better pictures.
[03:12:54] Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
[03:12:55] Speaker 13: I shouldn't say better pictures, but you would have noted.
[03:12:57] Speaker 8: Additional, yes, sir.
[03:12:58] Speaker 13: Yes, okay. Okay. With regards to the car of Mr. Akers that he was driving, did you examine the contents of the car or just took the outside pictures?
[03:13:21] Speaker 11: Only the photographs that I took when I was on the scene. I was just asked to photograph the car.
[03:13:26] Speaker 13: Did you go through the glove compartment, the console? Did you do that?
[03:13:30] Speaker 11: I don't recall doing that, sir.
[03:13:33] Speaker 13: Is there something that can refresh your memory?
[03:13:38] Speaker 8: It was never included in my report. I don't recall that, sir.
[03:13:42] Speaker 13: Okay, that's fine. All right, let me...
[03:13:45] Speaker 2: Thank you, sir. Why don't we break for lunch and yesterday we'll take an hour and 15 minutes and I guess it's to about 1.45. We'll resume at that time. Thank you. All right, anything before we break? Not a half of the missed polls, sir. Okay, we'll see y'all in an hour and 15 minutes. Thank you, sir. Thank you.
[03:14:56] Speaker 1: All right, this is Riker's tale. We're going to put a pin in it right there. We're going to put a pin in it right there. And we'll come back tomorrow and we will do the afternoon session. So we're going to stop for today. That was, what, about three hours or so? How long have we been doing? Yeah, it's like three hours. Afternoon session is like four hours. So they go about seven hours. They start at nine and they usually end at six with an hour and a half, well, hour, yeah, hour and a half break. And then the breaks in between. So we'll do day two afternoon tomorrow. And we may crash and burn and do, just keep going and do day three so that we're caught up on Monday. So, yeah, with that, I'm going to let you guys go. I will say thank you all for joining us today. It's been a long day for us. It's going to be an even longer day tomorrow because it's going to be probably 11-hour stream. So if you guys are up for it, we are up for it. We're going to probably start, maybe I'll start at like 830. I don't want to start too much earlier than that because I still probably have like an hour worth of work to do, you know, on the back end, getting the stream ready and notes and all that stuff. But, yeah, we'll probably start at 830 tomorrow. So thank you for joining us. Thank you to our mods. Thank you to Aaron. Thank you for the super chats. Thank you for the gifted memberships. People have been with us for many, many months. Really appreciate that. Thank you for the gifts, you guys. And thank you for the likes. I think we got, yeah, 183 likes. So appreciate that. Excuse me. So rest up. Join us tomorrow. It's going to be a long, long stream. I think we'll start at 830 and we'll go. It's going to be about an 11-hour stream. So get yourself rested up and we will see you guys tomorrow. All right. Have a good night, guys. Bye.
[03:17:02] Speaker ?: Bye.