BREAKING NEWS ODM GOVERNOR GLADYS WANGA SUMMONED TO SENATE COMMITTEE OVER MILLIONS CORRUPTION

[0:01] It would help because some of you are sitting in a blind spot, so I might not be able to see you if you can just stand as you introduce yourself. [0:08] Thank you, Chair. My name is Paul Osso, Director ICT for Homoby County. Thank you. [0:18] Thank you, Chair. My name is Irina Dika, the Acting Director HRMD. [0:30] Thank you, Chair and Honorable Members. I'm Martin Opere, the Acting CC Lands, Physical Planning, Housing and Urban Development, but substantially CC Education. Thank you. [0:39] Thank you, Chair. My name is Dr. Jonah Gilly. I'm the CCM in charge of Water, Sanitation, Environment, Forestry, Energy and Climate Change. Thank you. [0:53] Good morning, Chair and Honorable Members. I'm Professor Benalbuk. I'm the County Secretary and Head of Public Service. [0:58] Good morning, Chair. My name is Dr. Lojo Ash, the County Executive Committee Member for Agriculture, Livestock Production and Irrigation, [1:15] and also acting in the Department of Trade, Investment, Tourism, Industrialization, Cooperative Affairs and Youth Affairs. Thank you. [1:27] Good morning, Chair. My name is Malitzara, the CCM for Blue Economy, Fisheries, Mining, and Digital Economy. Thank you. [1:45] Good morning, Chair and Honorable Members. My name is Grace Masio-Sewe, CCM for Public Health and Medical Services. Thank you. [1:57] Good morning, Chairman and Members. My name is Frederico Rego, County Attorney. [2:02] Good morning, Chair and Members. My name is Alphonse Oera, Chief Officer for Finance. [2:09] Good morning, Chair and Members. I'm Okelo Sita, head of our Council of Bay County. [2:18] Thank you, Chair. My name is Daniel Anyango, County Attorney, Laudita. [2:24] Good morning, Chair. My name is Elijah Dede, Chief Officer for Roads, Public Works and Transport, [2:33] and also CCM, designated for Trade, Investment, Industry, Cooperative Development, and Youth Affairs. Thank you. [2:43] Thank you, Chair. I'm Inji Niyabena Nyobange, Chief Officer for Trade, Industry, Investment, Tourism, and Marketing. Thank you. [2:51] Thank you, Chair and Honorable Members. I'm Isai Okoto, Public Service Board Chair. Thank you. [3:03] Thank you, Chair and Members. My name is Ruth Achi, CEO of the Public Service Board. Thank you. [3:12] Thank you, Chair and Members. My name is Judy Tombok, Chief Officer in Charge of Agriculture and Irrigation. Thank you. [3:18] Good morning, Chair. My name is Charles Obondo, Chief Officer for Housing and Urban Development. [3:24] Good morning, Chair. My name is Dr. Tobias Konyango, Chair of the Revenue Board. [3:33] Good morning, Chair. My name is Brian Matete, Director of the Revenue Board. [3:39] I believe that is it for the delegation accompanying the Governor. [3:49] Yes, Chair. [3:50] Fine. I think if there are others who have not introduced themselves, there must be members of the Fourth Estate and perhaps parliamentary staff. [4:00] We'll proceed to the next order, which is... [4:02] Yeah, we will proceed with the administration of oath and tabling of documents. [4:10] I, Gladys Wanga, do solemnly swear that the evidence I shall give before this Committee in respect of the matters before the Committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help me God. [4:39] Mr. Chairman, sir, I hereby table the following documents before the Committee. [4:57] The management responses and accompanying annexures on the report of the Auditor General on the County Executive for the year 2024-2025. [5:07] Management responses and accompanying annexures on the report of the Auditor General on the Receiver of Revenue Statements [5:14] for the County Executive for the County Executive for the financial year 2024-2025. Thank you. [5:35] May I find out from the Auditor General whether you have reviewed the documents and you are able to proceed? [5:43] Yeah, thank you, Chair. We confirm that we received the responses and the supporting evidences and we are ready to continue. [5:48] Thank you. And Clerk of the Senate. [5:50] Thank you, Chair. Yes, I can confirm we received the documents on 9th June as prescribed in a letter inviting Omabe County to appear before this Committee today. Thank you. [6:01] Okay, so before we proceed, in our invitation letter, we conveyed the decision of the Senate on the Tuesday, the 31st of March 2026, [6:11] during which the Senate considered the report of the County Public Accounts Committee on the consideration of the report of the Auditor General [6:19] on the financial statements of the County Executive of Homabay for financial year 2024-2025, the report of the Receiver of Revenue, and the report on the County Revenue Fund. [6:29] Just to summarize, the Senate adopted the report of the Auditor General as is because the County Executive of Homabay did not present themselves before the Committee. [6:40] Secondly, the Senate resolved to invite the Governor of Homabay to appear before this Committee to provide an outline of measures being taken to close the non-conformances highlighted by the Auditor General. [6:55] And thirdly, the Senate resolved to impose a fine of 500,000 shillings on the Governor in her personal capacity. [7:02] I want to find out from the Clerk of the Senate whether the fine of 500,000 has been paid. [7:09] Thank you, Chair. Yes, I can confirm that the fine of 500,000 has already been paid. [7:14] I think if that is the case, then we should be able to proceed to consider the measures taken by the County Executive of Homabay to close the issues raised by the Auditor General. [7:25] Since the Public Accounts Committee Chair of the County Assembly is present, let me find out whether, as a County Assembly, you have considered the report on the County Executive, the report on the Receiver of Revenue, and the report on the County Revenue Fund, and whether the House has made any resolutions. [7:48] Thank you, Honorable Chair. We've done so and forwarded the same deliberations to the Senate. Thank you. [7:54] Clerk, are you in receipt of the resolution of the House on the three reports? [7:59] Chair, I've not cited those resolutions, but I'll check them out, then get back to the Committee. [8:06] Okay. I think going forward, it would be very useful if the time the notice is received for this appearance, if the Assembly has made a resolution, that those resolutions are shared with the Senate early, so that we don't ask the same questions twice. [8:22] So, if they had been circulated earlier, they would have formed the basis, or they would have formed part of our conversation today. [8:31] However, Chair, it's good to know if they were done within the statutory timelines of March 31st, because then we cannot consider them if they were done outside that timeline. [8:42] What was the date of adoption? [8:45] They were done within the timeline, and the same was forwarded, I believe so. [8:50] Okay. I think when we retreat to write our report, we'll make reference to the report of the County Assembly, but that does not stop us from proceeding with our inquiry today. [9:01] Unless there is any preliminary matter, and looking at the time, knowing that by 2.30 we should be in the Chamber, Senator Achiraki? [9:10] Chair, you know, wage bill in most counties, including Omaha Bay County, is quite high, but I know that's an issue. [9:19] My only concern, Governor, I have noticed you have an usually high number of your senior officers as acting capacity. [9:27] So, my question is why, and number two, whether there is a functional county public service board. [9:35] So, if you can answer why most of them are acting. [9:39] And I find it strange that the example of the user introduced himself as DG's designate. [9:45] So, I don't know what that stands for. [9:48] If you can highlight, because the issue of HR is very critical. [9:50] And if you find people acting capacity, of course, under the law, they have limitation of execution. [9:57] So, Governor, can you give us the reason as to why a number of your senior delegation are in acting capacity? [10:07] Can I give guidance that there's a substantive audit finding on employees on acting capacity for periods exceeding six months? [10:15] We can discuss, we can address that when we get to that substantive matter. [10:19] Thank you. Thank you, Senator. [10:20] So, let's go to the report of the Auditor General, starting with the report on the county executive. [10:28] And time allowing, we'll also be able to look at the Receiver of Revenue report. [10:33] Auditor General, what was your opinion? [10:43] Thank you, sir. The opinion is qualified opinion. [10:45] Auditor General, read out your opinion, and then we go to the basis of the opinion. [11:00] Thank you, sir. [11:03] The report of the financial year 2024-25, and the report of financial settlements is qualified opinion. [11:08] And the basis of the qualified opinions, one is the issue of the motor vehicles. [11:16] Okay, so let me give guidance now that you have read out the opinion, because you have spent almost one and a half hours with a brief. [11:24] There are things, there are issues that we have already gotten a brief, having perused the responses from the county. [11:29] So, your first issue was three motor vehicles without logbooks. [11:35] Do you now have the logbooks? [11:37] Because this is a very straightforward matter. [11:40] Yeah, we have logbooks, and the issue has already been addressed. [11:43] And in your view as an auditor, this is a matter that has been addressed? [11:46] Yes. [11:47] I know there could be many questions why they were not produced during the time of audit and all that. [11:55] But I think we have got Section 62 of the Public Audit Act, which we will be making recommendations on. [12:01] But because there are much more substantive issues in this report, I think since during that brief, the Auditor General has told us the matters addressed, [12:11] maybe let's tick them, and then we can deal with the global issue on why documents were not provided during the time of audit. [12:19] So, the logbooks have been provided, and supported expenditure on Kindubei's showground wall. [12:26] Thank you, Chair. [12:26] The payment of voucher has already been provided, and the issue has also been addressed. [12:32] So, you had requested for a payment voucher, which was not present at the time of audit, but it has been subsequently produced. [12:42] Yes. [12:42] In terms of verification, in terms of dating of the payment voucher, what assurance are you giving the Senate as to the authenticity of that payment voucher? [12:53] Chair, we confirmed that the payment voucher is authentic, and we have also confirmed in terms of the approvals that has already been done, and there is an appendix for that. [13:02] Okay. [13:02] And supported expenditure on fuel usage? [13:08] Yes. [13:08] Thank you, Chair. [13:08] This has also been addressed. [13:10] There is a Department of Fuel Registry that has already been provided and detailed, and that, again, there is an appendix 3A, which supports that. [13:17] But when you say that instructions were given verbally, how is that corrected? [13:24] How has the county corrected that? [13:27] Are they correct in going forward? [13:28] And at this point, I think, Chair, it is good to know why the documents, if they were there, on the expenditure of fuel, why they were not produced during the time of audit, then we can deal globally with that justification, because the law requires justification. [13:49] Okay, since we've been fairly efficient, and we've already ticked off about two or three issues, maybe let's put this to the test. [13:58] We ask the ultra-general to read his finding, and then the county government to respond, and then we just see whether the measures put in place address the concern therein. [14:08] Auditor, please read your finding there. [14:16] Yeah, thank you, Chair. [14:16] 2.1, unsupported expenditure on the fuel usage, including this balance of cashier sharing 43,461,651 in carbon and fuel, oil, and lubricants. [14:28] However, a review of the fuel management controls and the procedure revealed that the county executive did not issue detailed orders for the purpose of otherizing and managing the drawing of the fuel at the petrol station. [14:40] The instructions to draw the fuel were given verbally with no record being maintained for comparison between the supplier invoice and the amount fuel actually drawn. [14:50] In the circumstances, the accuracy and the completeness and the validity of the expenditure of Kenya Shilling 43,461,651 on fuel, oil, and lubricant cannot be confirmed. [15:02] Governor, you may read your response. [15:04] Management wishes to state that the expenditure of Kenya Shilling 43,461,651 on fuel, oil, and lubricant were fully supported by all requisite approvals in accordance with the PFM county government's regulations 2015. [15:24] The approvals included authorization by designated officers and approved detailed orders supported by work tickets and supplier receipts, all of which were duly recorded in the fuel registers. [15:40] An extract of fuel register and sample detailed orders have been available for audit verification. [15:46] Appendix 3A, departmental fuel register extracts, detailed orders, work tickets, and fuel receipts. [15:54] And 3B is administrative action, which is memo on fuel management and warning lecture for failure to submit documents. [16:06] Thank you, Chair. [16:08] Okay, auditor, since you are our eye on the ground, you said that the county did not issue detailed orders for the purpose of authorizing and managing the drawing of fuel at the petrol station. [16:23] Now, you are telling us it is now resolved. [16:26] Which one, which appendix resolves it? [16:31] Yeah, thank you, Chair. [16:32] If you look at the departmental fuel register and the detailed orders, which also has now the approvals, you see, at the point of the audit, we requested this information and it has not been availed. [16:42] So, for us, of course, the vehicle has to draw the fuels. [16:45] So, that support of that documentation is missing. [16:47] But, look at that appendix 3A, where there is a departmental fuel register and detailed orders, that already card and also the work tickets has given some assurance. [16:55] Yes, Chair, we can see the separate 3A. [17:04] You mean, appendix 1, 24C. [17:12] Now, I just wanted to follow up on the audit. [17:16] You said they produced a sample of a card for withdrawing the fuel. [17:22] Did you say that? [17:25] Because what is on 3A, it's only the internal memo. [17:36] Through the Chair. [17:37] I have it here. [17:38] 3A. [17:41] Yeah, what I can see is only the internal memo signed by Solomon Obiero. [17:49] Now, if I may follow up, Governor, apart from the internal memo, you have something like a kind of card for each vehicle, because that would be assisting you to control the usage of fuel, to go to the petrol station to fuel your vehicle. [18:08] Do you have anything like that? [18:12] Thank you, Chairman. [18:14] Just a minute, Governor. [18:16] Senator, maybe she can take both together. [18:20] Governor, from your response, you're basically telling us that county government vehicles are fueled on a phone call. [18:28] Or how is it done? [18:29] Just explain to us. [18:30] Because you're saying, the auditor is saying the instructions to draw fuel were given verbally. [18:37] And I heard you saying that there were designated people who make those phone calls or who have to go physically to those petrol stations and essentially say, [18:45] Jaza, I, Myambi, or something like that. [18:48] So just clarify for me what the process is there. [18:51] And then how we can be able to know that these people are authorized to give that. [18:55] Senator Achirate? [18:56] Chair, I've seen a number of being issued by, I think, us, the petrol station. [19:04] So the governor should give us, because I've seen a number around us, the petrol station, the prequalification process, [19:14] or how many companies are supposed to supply fuel. [19:19] And Senator Nairobi has said whether there is a specific issuance of card. [19:24] And, Chair, with your indulgence, on the previous question on Kendo Bay, I've seen in the response of the governor, [19:33] he has only accounted for 10 million against 21 million. [19:36] So I'm requesting with your indulgence, if we dispense of this matter, she can go back, because from her response, [19:43] unlike what, she can only account for 10 million against 21 million for the Kendo Bay war. [19:48] So I wanted you to note so that we can go back. [19:51] Thank you. [19:51] I yield back, Chair. [19:52] Just for order, Chair, in 3A, I'm not able to see the separate file. [19:58] Maybe the governor can point us to that separate file. [20:03] Oh, separate. [20:04] Oh, that is the one. [20:06] Okay, okay. [20:07] Thank you, Chair. [20:09] Okay. [20:09] Governor, you may... [20:10] So, Chair, mine would just be maybe a simple one on the invoices. [20:18] Governor, the invoices that I'm seeing from up in the 3A, all of them, I think, without exception, [20:29] from a single service provider or contractor or petrol station. [20:38] I don't know, maybe this is the only one that supplies fuel to vehicles in the county government of Omar Bay. [20:52] You just explain that, that's fine. [20:55] Okay. [20:55] It would be useful, even as you respond, to also take us through... [21:00] Just explain what appendix 3A means, because I'm seeing some documents that are either ineligible or blank. [21:09] But you can respond to the earlier questions raised by the senators. [21:15] Thank you, Chair. [21:16] What we are providing in our appendix 3A in response to the auditor's question on how the fuel process happens is we are providing the extracts of departmental fuel register extracts, [21:35] detailed orders, which is what you use to go and fuel, not by a phone call, work tickets, which the drivers provide, and fuel receipts. [21:47] So, what we have provided here is evidence that there is a process, and we've provided them department by department. [21:55] Not all of them, but extracts of them, that there is a process that each department has for purposes of acquiring fuel. [22:05] On the issue of the invoices, yes, there is invoices from the Haas Petroleum. [22:11] There are invoices from Zamzam petrol station. [22:16] There are invoices from Shell. [22:18] These are the petrol stations that are predominantly in Homa Bay. [22:24] So, it is not a single petrol station. [22:29] CC Finance, if you have anything to add. [22:32] Yeah, and as CC Finance responds, you probably want to even take a sample, because I can see the first placeholder here is education. [22:43] And then just help us understand what those pages, with regards to education, what you are trying to say, and how it confirms the process. [22:57] CC? [22:58] Thank you, Chair. [23:00] Chair, with respect to education, on the first page we have the voucher number, the account details, the item description, that is the product that we are consuming from the particular petrol station. [23:16] Chair, it indicates the payee, which is the person giving us the product, and the payment date and amount. [23:27] And that is the Department of Education, Chair, the second page, just under the Department of Education, we have a payment voucher, which has now been drawn in favor of Haas Petroleum, who have been given us a supply of oil and lubricants. [23:49] CC, the concern was initiation, so PV comes at the end, so PV comes at the end, can you demonstrate that the initiation was not verbal, as the auditor says? [24:14] Thank you, Chair. [24:15] If we go to still under education, the first detailed order, in favor of Haas Petroleum, this detailed order is drawn from the Department, [24:24] and the person that is going to draw fuel needs to go... [24:29] Which is a detailed order? [24:31] It's on which? [24:32] Chair, after the payment voucher. [24:36] How many pages after? [24:39] Payment voucher are two pages, so the third page. [24:42] Okay, so you can explain that? [24:50] So the document that authorizes one to draw fuel from the petrol station is a detailed order. [24:57] This detailed order is developed from the Department, and it's newly approved to a neighbor driver to go draw fuel from the petrol station. [25:12] Help me understand, CC, because I can see that detailed order you're speaking of. [25:16] Is it the number 3117268? [25:21] Yes, sir. [25:22] How do I know which vehicle is going to be fueled? [25:24] Chair, the vehicle that is going to fuel... [25:31] From that document of your... [25:33] First, the LPO number that is referenced, 43-81-567, will be indicating, when we go to that, will be indicating a particular vehicle. [25:48] But also, on the invoice, the vehicle that has fueled, the vehicle registration number is... [25:55] We are at initiation. [25:55] Yes, we are still at... [25:57] We just want to understand the process, eh? [25:59] Yeah. [25:59] This detailed order, how do I know it is for 43-CG-036A? [26:06] Chair, it is supposed to be on... [26:09] It is on the detailed order, actually, but where the stamp is for the Department of Education, you can see a 43 somewhere. [26:17] Unfortunately, it is not very clear. [26:19] But that 43 is exposed with the invoice down here, 43-CG-036A. [26:28] That's it. [26:29] Is there any other detailed order which is clear, so that we are not hypothesizing that it's supposed to be where the stamp is? [26:38] In fact, you have put the stamp on all those invoices. [26:41] You have put the stamp where we're supposed to see the vehicle now. [26:43] Is it a coincidence? [26:46] Maybe we can check the second one, eh? [26:49] And even chair, the way the payment voucher has been written, it's less because even on the words, they have just written 200. [26:57] I don't know, but they only in numbers, they have written 200,000, but in writing is 200. [27:06] We don't know whether it's 200,000 or 200 in payment. [27:10] So even if you look at the payment voucher, see, see, and you are the ones who write, this is lessness. [27:17] That's right. [27:18] The one on after, after the third, after even the first one in your separate document. [27:25] Is there any order that you can refer to that? [27:32] Yes, chair. [27:33] Can you use this one to explain to me? [27:35] 3-1-1-7-2-7-8. [27:42] I think it's the last detailed order. [27:45] Before blue economy. [27:46] Before blue economy. [27:49] Before blue economy. [27:52] So that we understand the process. [27:54] Thank you, senator. [27:56] Thank you, chair. [27:57] Yeah, so 43CG253A is on the detailed order. [28:06] Detail order number 3-1-1-7-2-7-8. [28:13] The vehicle is drawing diesel. [28:16] The date that the vehicle has gone to draw. [28:24] The name of the vendor and the amount of fuel that is drawn in letters. [28:34] After that detailed order, we have an invoice that the vendor gives, which will go to the file. [28:43] What's the amount of the invoice? [28:49] 70 liters. [28:51] The amount of money. [28:54] This is supposed to be 11,000. [28:58] 13,020. [28:59] But it says 13,128. [29:01] 13,288. [29:03] But this is rubbed there. [29:05] 11,627. [29:07] Even it says 700 liters. [29:09] 70. [29:10] Sorry, chair. [29:11] From the invoice. [29:13] Thank you, chair. [29:15] Anorable senator. [29:16] These things are handwritten. [29:18] You see, can you breathe in and out? [29:20] So that you can answer properly. [29:22] You are confusing us. [29:23] Thank you, honorable senator. [29:27] The 13,288 is the value of the fuel drawn for 70 liters at a cost of 166. [29:39] CEC, chair, with your permission. [29:41] Can I give you my copy? [29:43] Because I think maybe you have a clearer copy for us to follow what you're saying. [29:47] Because on the face of that invoice and governor, you can just look at it. [29:51] There's a problem with that invoice. [29:58] Where are you reading? [29:58] Because mine actually, from where I sit, it says 700 liters. [30:04] It has been, what is it called? [30:08] Mended. [30:09] The total amount there, I can't even make out what this figure is, chair. [30:13] The only figure that is clear here is 13,288 in the middle of the invoice. [30:18] But at the bottom there, it says total CEC. [30:21] Do you have a better copy than mine? [30:24] Honorable chair and senator, we have, I think, the same copy, I believe. [30:29] And the fuel drawn from the detail order is 70 liters. [30:33] This invoice could have not been 700 because from the detail order it is indicated 70 liters. [30:40] So the service provider can only give us a maximum. [30:43] So chair. [30:44] CEC, don't defend the indefensible. [30:47] There's a problem with this invoice. [30:49] And the more you try to explain it, the more questions you're going to get. [30:52] There's obviously a problem here. [30:54] Let us stick to your 70 liters, CEC. [31:01] Yeah? [31:02] The unit cost is what from your record? [31:09] It's 166.1. [31:14] Is it? [31:19] Zeli? [31:20] Yes, yes. [31:21] Read the unit cost for me. [31:22] The unit cost is 166.1. [31:32] Now multiply 166.1 by 70. [31:41] What do you get? [31:42] We get, that will give us 166.1 times 70. [31:51] What do you get? [31:55] Just read. [31:56] I mean, what you get is what you get, you know? [31:58] 166.1 times 70. [32:04] 11,000 of 166.1 times 70. [32:10] Okay. [32:10] 11,627. [32:13] What is your figure in the invoice? [32:15] 13,288. [32:23] Where do you get the variance? [32:26] Chair, what I can see from the face of this invoice, there is a rubbing there. [32:33] So it's 11,627 on the end, but then 13,288 in the middle. [32:39] So there is obviously a discrepancy between what is at the end column and in the middle [32:44] of the invoice. [32:45] So I think there is a discrepancy on that invoice. [32:48] But Chair, coming back to the process, which was the question, and I see that discrepancy [32:55] between the two figures. [32:56] And I think the vendor who gave the invoice made that error. [33:02] And it was attached here right from the vendor without them correcting it. [33:09] But in terms of the process of getting fuel and in terms of coming back to what the auditor [33:14] had raised, the fuel is not collected by phone call. [33:19] It is collected through a detailed order that is given to the vendor by the department. [33:25] Under the detailed order, I think earlier what Senator Sifuna had asked, what on that detailed [33:30] order shows the car that is going to collect the fuel? [33:36] I think the detailed order has the space for the number plate of the car and the litters [33:42] and the department that is collecting the fuel. [33:45] Thank you, Chair. [33:46] And we have noted that error in the invoice. [33:51] Senator Dulu. [33:52] Governor, the query is very clear. [34:05] There is no proper mechanisms in place in controlling the usage of fuel. [34:12] And that is very clear. [34:15] And I don't actually accept or allow the CEC and the staff to mislead you. [34:23] Because if you look at the invoice that attached from Haas, even towards the end of the documents, [34:31] or rather the invoices to trade, they're not even very clear, you see? [34:39] So if your document is very clear and transparent, the invoice should be also very clear. [34:46] Because they are not clear, those invoices. [34:48] Again, most of the listing that is done for the vehicles and the ones that are drawn, they [34:54] are unwritten. [34:55] We know very well anything unwritten can be changed at any time. [35:03] So I think you need to look into this and see how you can put proper control mechanisms [35:09] in place that can assist you in drawing fuel or also accounting for fuel consumption within [35:18] the county. [35:19] Thank you, Chair. [35:19] Chair, for me, I think I still need to hear from the Auditor General, because you are the [35:25] one who has raised this query. [35:27] Where did you experience these orders that were being made verbally? [35:32] Number two, Governor, this Appendix 3A is supposed to explain to us, for instance, I've [35:40] seen what your team has tried to do, is that there's a detailed order that is supposed to [35:44] correspond with an invoice. [35:45] Yeah, but it is very, very confusing, Governor. [35:48] This one should actually raise the alarm with you, that your team is trying to be clever [35:53] with us. [35:53] And you see, we get very upset when we see that. [35:56] If it is possible, CEC, I just want to demonstrate one final thing. [36:00] That, there is a detailed order number 311-7283. [36:05] I don't know if you can find it. [36:07] And unfortunately, this time around, Governor, you did not paginate your documents. [36:11] So, we have to find it slowly. [36:14] 3-1-1-7283. [36:19] Are we together? [36:21] First of all, Governor, just look at that detailed order. [36:24] Just look at it the way it looks. [36:27] First, you notice the famous stamp is not on this one. [36:34] We were told a story of a stamp that was covering up the number of the vehicle. [36:44] So, if you look at the quantity there, what figure is that? [36:49] I can see the word patrol, CEC. [36:51] What is the figure on that detailed order, the amount of fuel that is going to be sourced? [36:57] Can you see it from your copy? [36:58] That's a file. [37:03] Well, I can make it out on mine. [37:05] What is the registration number of that vehicle? [37:10] Where is that 411 coming from? [37:15] Because my copy doesn't have any of that. [37:18] Thank you, Honorable Senator. [37:20] I think... [37:21] You are reading the invoice. [37:22] You are not reading the order. [37:23] We have 43CG247, except at the time of probably making a copy for this file, the 7 is missing. [37:34] But it seems cut. [37:36] It's evidently that it is cut out of just a photocopy. [37:40] Yes, my apologies. [37:42] Okay, so whose signature is that? [37:44] Because all the others have been seeing, at least there is a reason, there's somebody who's being quoted there, HB Education or something like that. [37:53] Whose signature is that one on 3117283? [37:58] This is the signature of the person from the Department of Education authorized to approve fuel withdrawal. [38:06] How many do you have in that department? [38:08] How many people are authorized to do this document? [38:13] I think we have a maximum of two, because one can be out of office per department. [38:19] On this 3117283, who is the person who signed? [38:22] Can you tell? [38:24] I would love to consult my colleague from the Department of Education. [38:31] Finally, what is the date on that 3117283? [38:35] 22nd of May, 2025. [38:38] Where is the 5? [38:39] Again, it was left out. [38:41] No, it's not left out, Senator, but I think it's just to do with the copies that were made. [38:47] Being that the detailed order document, the color is yellow, when you make many copies, such as are bound to occur, when you make many copies. [38:56] Okay, we are taking a lot of time on this matter. [38:58] It's 42 million out of almost 13 billion expenditure for this year. [39:03] And when you look at the time, because, Governor, what was the reason for attaching the internal memo and the letter by the CEC dated 2nd of February, 2026? [39:17] The reason why you are having a problem with the senators is your response to indicate that everything is okay. [39:24] They are struggling to show you where the gaps are. [39:26] And I can see your officers did a memo recommending or saying administrative action shall be taken and reminding all officers of the procedures. [39:36] If you would have confined yourself to the measures you are taking to improve the process, that would have been good enough. [39:43] But if the position is that the process is perfect, then you are going to get a lot of queries on the substance before us. [39:50] So, if it's a perfect exercise, then I'll allow my senators to ask questions. [40:00] But if it's work in progress, and that is your submission, then we can keep some things in view. [40:08] But let me hear from Senator Chiraghi first. [40:09] No, Chair, looking at even blue economy, the entire invoices that has been provided by one of the petrol stations, I think, is not readable. [40:21] So, and then looking at the discrepancy, Governor, of this amount, it might look small. [40:29] But how many Kenyans can get 2,000 per day? [40:31] So, it is, Chair, it looks like this thing was manufactured unless proven otherwise. [40:39] And in fact, I don't know who is Robert Niasuna. [40:42] This Robert Niasuna, I thought it's somebody who works for the county. [40:47] And Governor, they must do due diligence. [40:50] Because these are very critical. [40:52] So, Governor, maybe you would consider striking out these invoices, which are not readable, until you get so that it can form basis of answering this question. [41:01] Okay. [41:02] Members, to ensure that you are not bogged down in an audit, because the facts as presented indicate there's a problem. [41:09] Yeah, finally. [41:10] Unless the Governor disputes. [41:11] Yes, finally, for me. [41:12] I am not convinced when the CEC says there's only two people designated. [41:17] Because just from the sample of those same documents, if you just look at the signatures from 311, 7283, 282, 278, those are at least three distinct signatures, CEC. [41:29] So, my expectation, Governor, would be to see a document of designation saying, in this department, Sifuna is authorized to issue these detailed orders, so that we can be able to compare. [41:41] From my reading here, from my reading here, there is more than one person signing these documents. [41:46] It's creating a problem, Chair. [41:47] Okay, Governor. [41:50] Chairman, I wanted to concur with you that the reason why we appended the memos and the administrative action is because of continuous improvement of the process, including the testing of the CART system or any other system that can do. [42:08] What we wanted to demonstrate by these documents was that there is a process that is not necessarily verbal. [42:16] There is a detailed order and an invoicing process, but it is not a perfect process. [42:22] It is a work in progress, and that is why the CEC has written a memo reminding the officers that they must adhere to the strict process in the fuel, in the management of fuel. [42:37] So, members, this is a matter that, because the in-year audit, I think, is beginning, Auditor General, you must also be more rigorous, because you had advised us earlier that the matter is resolved. [42:46] But, you know, upon testing, you find that there are variances. [42:50] This is a matter that you must main open, and you must adequately look at in the next cycle of audits. [42:57] Senator Morumi. [42:58] The chair may be because the auditor has marked it as addressed, and we need to agree with him to resolve it because of the part of justification why the documents are not given during the time of audit. [43:11] Maybe the CEC, I think, who is the person supposed to give the documents, can in one or two sentences tell us where the documents were. [43:19] If they are there, why are they not given? [43:21] And then, okay, that warrants a very brief answer. [43:26] I'm very, very conscious of the time. [43:29] Thank you, Senator. [43:31] Appendix 3B, Appendix 3B. [43:37] We have taken administrative action on the officers that didn't avail the documents to the auditor on time. [44:04] Yes, 3B, administrative action. [44:07] The question asked is different from the answer you are giving because the senator has asked where were the documents at the time of audit and why were they not produced because administrative action is taken at the tail end. [44:29] But since we have agreed that this is a matter that remains open, it's not resolved as indicated by the auditor general, we'll keep the matter in view and ask the auditor general to do a more thorough analysis. [44:38] But then again, Governor, internally, you have seen some of the weaknesses in terms of record keeping, and it's something that you need to go back and have a conversation with your team on to ensure that it's a much more foolproof exercise. [44:51] Now, members, I'd ask that we move on to the next issue. [44:57] There's an issue of payment of electricity bills. [45:00] Chair, with your indulgence. [45:01] Senator Achirake. [45:02] I know the OEG had said $21.27 million had been accounted for the expenditure of Kendo Bay Shore ground wall. [45:14] But looking at the management response, the governor says that she can only account for $10.4 million. [45:21] So my question is, although the governor indicates that the construction is ongoing, then what is the fate of the other $10 million? [45:31] Because looking at the management response, if the governor can clarify that, or is it that the OEG should have clarified on $10.4 million instead of $21.2 million in the payment of Kendo Bay Shore ground wall? [45:50] Okay. [45:51] This is straightforward. [45:52] Governor, the amount where it was $21 million. [45:56] In your response, you have talked of $10.4 million. [45:59] What happens to the remaining $11 million? [46:04] Thank you, Chairman. [46:05] Chairman, it's different from the answer you're giving because the senator has asked where were the documents at the time of audit and why were they not produced? [46:13] Because administrative action is taken at the tail end. [46:16] But since we have agreed that this is a matter that remains open, it's not resolved as indicated by the Auditor General, we'll keep the matter in view and ask the Auditor General to do a more thorough analysis. [46:26] But then again, Governor, internally, you have seen some of the weaknesses in terms of record keeping, and it's something that you need to go back and have a conversation with your team on to ensure that it's a much more foolproof exercise. [46:38] Now, members, I'd ask that we move on to the next issue. [46:45] There's an issue of payment of electricity bills. [46:47] Chair, with your indulgence. [46:49] Senator Achiraki. [46:49] I know the OEG had said $21.27 million had been accounted for the expenditure of Kendo Bay Shore Ground Walls. [47:01] But looking at the management response, the governor says that she can only account for $10.4 million. [47:08] So my question is, although the governor indicates that the program, the construction is ongoing, then what is the fate of the other $10 million? [47:19] Because looking at the management response, if the governor can clarify that, or is it that the OEG should have clarified on $10.4 million instead of $21.2 million in the payment of Kendo Bay Shore Ground Walls? [47:38] Okay, this is straightforward. [47:40] Governor, the amount queried was $21 million. [47:44] In your response, you have talked of $10.4 million. [47:48] What happens to the remaining $11 million? [47:52] Thank you, Chairman. [47:53] Chairman, the contract sum was $21 million, $217,151. [47:58] The progress, the project is ongoing, and the amount that has been paid is $10 million, $411,561. [48:07] That is what we indicated in the response. [48:09] And the project is still ongoing. [48:12] Auditor General, when you say $21 million was spent, does that mean that there was evidence of actual payments of $21 million? [48:20] No, sure. [48:21] That was the contract sum amount. [48:22] You know, if you look in terms of the discrosures, the $21,217,000 was the contract sum for the Kendo Bay Shore Ground. [48:29] But when we requested for the detail to support that... [48:31] But auditor language is important. [48:32] When you say spent, it denotes payments. [48:37] It denotes payments. [48:39] I mean, you would have said $21 million contract sum. [48:42] So you can confirm that $21 million was a contract sum, not an actual expenditure. [48:48] No. [48:49] So the actual expenditure is $10 million. [48:51] $10 million, yes. [48:51] And the project is still ongoing. [48:54] Yes, still in progress. [48:55] Governor, the project is still ongoing? [48:58] Yes, Chairman, it's ongoing. [48:59] We have put in the pictures, Chairman, of the progress on the project. [49:04] So then to avoid belaboring the point, we can keep it in view. [49:08] We keep it in view. [49:09] It remains unresolved. [49:11] I want us to skip one or two matters, and we'll come back to them if time allows. [49:20] And I'll perhaps give guidance that we jump to the section on lawfulness and effectiveness in the use of public resource, [49:29] where we have the issues to do with the FIF, pending bills, and human resource. [49:35] And then we'll come back to a few unresolved prior year matters, which form part of this report under Appendix 1. [49:44] Honorable members, we go to the section on lawfulness and effectiveness and deal with the noncompliance with Facility Improvement Financing Act of 2023. [49:58] Auditor General, you may read your findings. [50:03] Yeah, thank you, Chair. [50:04] Proceed. [50:11] Thank you, Chair. [50:12] Noncompliance with the Facility Improvement Financing Act 2023. [50:15] The review of the revenue records obtained from the Level 4 and Level 5 health facilities in Homa Bay County revealed that 24 health facilities collected a total of 1,616,696,509 to add the health facility improvement. [50:32] Out of this amount, a total of 1,705,000 was transferred to the special purpose account at the health department. [50:44] However, the special purpose account reimbursed a total of 1,707,504 to the health facility, resulting to a deficit of 1,708,904,220. [50:58] This was contrary to Section 5.1 of the Finance Facility Improvement Financing Act 2023, which requires that all monies raised or received on behalf of the public health facilities be retained in the hospital facilities improvement financing account. [51:14] In addition, failure to reimburse the total amount transferred by the facility negatively impacted on the service delivery by the health facilities. [51:22] In the circumstances, the management of the county executive was in breach of the law. [51:27] Thank you, Chair. [51:27] Governor, you may respond. [51:29] Chair, just on a point of order, if you allow, I have seen at the pictures of Kendubei Showground. [51:39] The wall looks complete except the gates, but looking at the amount that is being used for walling vis-a-vis the land, it doesn't tally. [51:48] Because if I look at the land, it might come to around 3 to 5 million. [51:53] Why would you use, and it looks dissolute, why would you use that amount? [51:57] Let's do this. [51:57] Let's deal with this FIF, and then the governor responds, then we can come back to the showground. [52:04] Governor, you may proceed. [52:11] Thank you, Chairman. [52:12] Management wishes to clarify that under the Homer Bay County Facility Improvement Fund, Facility Improvement Financing Act 2023, [52:20] the county government is required to retain 20% of collections from level 4 and level 5 health facilities. [52:28] Consequently, out of the 915 million, 941,725 collected and transferred to the FIF special account by the hospitals, [52:41] 183,183,188,345 was lawfully retained and utilized within the health care sector to fund the following programs, [52:51] supervision of public health facilities, supporting level 2 and level 3 hospitals, and supply of commodities to hospitals, [52:58] while the balance of 687,007,504 was reimbursed to the facilities during the financial year. [53:06] As at June 2025, 45,745,875 remained unreimbursed and formed part of the cash and cash equivalence balance of 76,144,115, [53:24] disclosed in the special purpose account bank statement. [53:27] However, the funds were later reimbursed to facilities in July 2025, as per the schedule attached in Appendix 7b. [53:37] Management confirms that the funds were retained, managed, and accounted for in accordance with the relevant legal framework [53:44] and fully disclosed in the financial statements. [53:48] We have Appendices 7a, extract, copy of the County FIF Act of 2023, [53:54] 7b. Special Purpose Account Bank Certificate, as at 30th June 2025, and disbursement schedules. [54:03] 7c. Extract of bank statements showing reimbursement of $45,745,875. [54:12] And 7d. Chair is Homabay County Amendment Bill 2026, which is the proposed bill, [54:19] so that the county bill conforms with the national FIF bill. [54:23] Auditor General, you cited violation of the law. What is the position? [54:33] Thank you, Shia. [54:35] Here, the issue is about the national law, the FIF Act 2023, which requires all the funds to be retained at the facility. [54:47] Yes, that is what you've said. [54:48] So I've asked you, you have listened to the response from the county government. [54:52] What is your advice on the basis of that response? [54:57] What is your opinion on the basis of that response? [54:59] Yeah, thank you, Shia. [55:03] There is, of course, we need to be guided, but if there is a conflict between the county government laws and the national government laws, [55:09] then the national government laws. [55:10] So in that scenario, then they need to amend the Act at the Homabay, so that it can be aligned to the national. [55:19] And I've seen some counties already have taken some initiative in terms of amending. [55:22] Yeah, I think, Auditor, you need just to be forthright and tell the county that you have breached the law. [55:28] Don't go around. They have breached the law, and that's the situation. [55:33] Honorable members, any follow-up question on this? [55:37] Senator Wogan? [55:37] Just to understand where governors are coming from, what is the rationale behind retaining the 20% governor? [55:50] Chairman, when we did the facilities infrastructure or facility improvement financing bill for the counties, [55:59] there was a standard law that was done by the counties and circulated, which we used, [56:05] which retained, for purposes, one, of supervision, two, of support for lower-level facilities within the jurisdiction [56:13] or catchment of the level-four facilities. [56:17] That was the rationale for the retention, which was countrywide. [56:24] It was a law done by, it was a template given to all counties, which we just domesticated in Homabay as well. [56:31] I'm raising this issue because some of these issues, especially on health, [56:37] you know, we can have a conversation, COG, senators. [56:42] If it makes logic that you need to retain the 20%, we can amend the national law. [56:48] You know, because at times when we have a conversation, we understand what is beneficial to the people we all serve. [56:55] That's why I was asking, I need to understand the rationale behind the retention. [56:58] So you may consider also engaging us that because we can amend the national law, [57:04] if retaining 20% will improve provision of health to our people. [57:10] Remember, honorable senators, we passed this law and we are sitting in Turkana at Senate Mashinani. [57:15] And the intent of this was to ensure that if money is collected from a facility, that money is plowed back there. [57:22] Remember, the county still has other budgets, other revenues or equitable share that comes in that can do all those other functions. [57:31] But in the hierarchy of laws, national law is superior to county law. [57:39] And I think if there is need to have that conversation, I think these are the things that the Senate can be engaged in. [57:48] But if you are chair, that there is mitigation, how are you handling FIF in this financial year, 25-26? [58:00] Chair, in addition, so that governor, I'm at note number 14A on detail analysis of cash and cash equivalents. [58:09] I'm looking at the different bank accounts that has been opened for various facilities. [58:15] That's by 28-29 on the certificate. [58:18] Which are these special purpose accounts, governor, if you can point out, number one on your note 14A financial statement is addition. [58:30] And finally, before you open a special purpose account, your CCM finance tells you there is a process. [58:39] So where was the justification to open special purpose account so that you can retain that? [58:45] And maybe I have a different view of what my brother, senior council, Senator Okonga, said. [58:53] I thought the reason we wanted money to be brought back is for efficiency of service delivery at the facility. [59:01] So if counties go back and take again, and you know the major complaint was that you are taking money to county treasury, [59:10] which is by the time we do requisition to get fuel for ambulance or drugs, Kenyans might have died. [59:15] So what was the rationale, and I'll be hesitant that we don't amend that law because it's about health. [59:21] I thought so that you can get money to fuel and get, it is an emergency service. [59:28] So I really want to understand where the governor is coming from because the wisdom of FIF is to have resources brought back [59:35] to improve efficiency and service delivery at the lowest level of the health, at that lowest level. [59:42] So Chair, those will be my three follow-up questions. [59:44] Let's allow Senator Lelegwe to go on record, and then Senator Ombua. [59:49] Thank you, Chair. [59:52] My name is Lelegwe. [59:53] This is Senator Frohsambul, member of this committee. [59:56] You're welcome, Senator. [59:57] Senator Ombua. [59:58] Oh, sorry, Senator Agataya. [1:00:02] Chair, my name is Senator Agataya. [1:00:04] I'm a member of this committee. [1:00:06] You're welcome. [1:00:06] Senator Ombua. [1:00:08] Thank you, Chair. [1:00:08] I'm happy you are saying, and my colleagues are saying, that there are conversations that can happen between the county governors and the Senate. [1:00:22] And I want to go back to that FIF. [1:00:25] Okay, the lowest is, clearly, Governor, the lowest is, it has been breached as is. [1:00:34] The question that I ask myself, and I keep asking this question, because the county governors are the ones who are implementing these things. [1:00:41] They are the ones who are on the ground doing these things. [1:00:45] If there are difficulties, because I'm seeing a lot of these breaches in FIF, there's a lot of breaches in the wage bills, on painting bills, you know, in almost every county. [1:00:57] And the question that I ask myself, Chair, is, what is the difficulty in the Council of Governors initiating a conversation with the Senate on the amendment of the laws? [1:01:13] I don't take the position that Senator Agataya is taking, that we don't touch the law. [1:01:17] I mean, laws are there to be amended. [1:01:22] There is need to do that. [1:01:24] What is the difficulty in the COG, especially on health matters, on FIF, engaging the Senate and saying, perhaps you have this difficulty in the FIF. [1:01:37] Why can't we amend the law to suit counties across the board? [1:01:44] Chair, that would be my comment on the FIF. [1:01:46] Governor. [1:01:47] Chair, on Senator Wambua's point, I think the reason for what, the reason that the national law is, appears to be breached is because of the conflict between the national law and the county law, [1:02:07] and the laws that were already legislated by counties. [1:02:12] And this was, as I mentioned earlier, a standard law that all counties legislated. [1:02:18] And no sooner had we finished legislating, there was a new process. [1:02:22] And when we input into the new process, some of these views were not accommodated, and the national law was then passed. [1:02:32] But in recognition that the national law supersedes the county laws, we are amending our own county laws to conform with the national law for the moment. [1:02:48] There was always the question, the FIF, the special purpose account, that Senator Chair Gay mentioned. [1:02:55] Of course, each facility has their own account, which they run on their own. [1:03:02] There was an earlier question of expenditure at source, which facilities receive money and they spend without any level of control. [1:03:13] So you will find that a facility has received money, rather than buy medicine, they have maybe prioritized building a gate. [1:03:24] And that is why there was a special purpose account created, so that when money is sent to the facility account, it is sent with an AIE. [1:03:33] And we have formed an AIE committee that has the CC for Health, the Chief Officer for Health, and the facility in charge, [1:03:40] so that they discuss and agree on what are the priorities. [1:03:43] And, for example, they've said priority number one is you must buy pharmaceuticals and non-pharmaceuticals before you are allowed to invest in firewood or anything else at the facility level. [1:03:57] So it is exercising some level of control, but ensuring that the facilities have their resources to expand. [1:04:07] So, Chairman, on this particular FIF, we are concluding on amending the law we have attached, the revised law for the county, [1:04:17] so that we can align it with the national law, so that we can proceed, so that the breach is not noted. [1:04:24] But all of this is for purposes of service delivery. [1:04:27] There is nothing, there is no money from health that is not spent on health. [1:04:34] So, Governor, through the chair, that alignment, will it happen in other counties or is it just in Omar Bay? [1:04:42] This is what Omar Bay is doing. [1:04:45] And the auditor mentioned, as the auditor mentioned, that many of the other counties are also working on their own laws to align it with the national law. [1:04:53] Where there is conflict between national and county legislation, national legislation is the one that applies. [1:05:02] Now, before we get lost in the policy conversation, the numbers are not tying. [1:05:08] Auditor General, you are saying the county collected 1.6 billion towards health facilities improvement. [1:05:16] And out of these, 9.15 million was transferred to special purpose account. [1:05:21] Let's tie the numbers, because the policy issues, I think, are quite clear. [1:05:25] The county does not refer to 1.6. [1:05:30] The county says they collected 9.15. [1:05:32] So, which is which? [1:05:34] For us to be sure that even with that irregularity in legislation, the numbers are flowing as they ought to be. [1:05:43] You have said the county collected 1.6 billion from 24 health facilities. [1:05:49] Is that the position? [1:05:50] Yes, Chair. [1:05:52] Governor, is that the position that you collected 1.6 billion from 24 health facilities? [1:05:57] Because if you collected 1.6 billion, then what ought to have been shared between this 20% and the rest of the facilities, the base should be 1.6 billion, not 900 million. [1:06:24] So, let's make sure the numbers flow. [1:06:27] Was the collection 1.6 billion? [1:06:29] My understanding is, and the auditor can correct if this is not the understanding, is 1.6 billion was the claims made by the facilities. [1:06:45] Auditor, please clarify that, because you have said collected, and collected means money in the account. [1:06:51] Maybe, Chair, just to clarify this, is that the facilities collected 1.6 billion. [1:06:55] But out of this, they transfine 915 to the special... [1:06:59] I'll just leave it there. [1:07:00] So, you confirm as an auditor that the facilities collected 1.6 billion? [1:07:05] Yes. [1:07:06] Okay, so... [1:07:07] What was to collect? [1:07:08] Collected. [1:07:09] Collected 1.6 billion. [1:07:10] We have some of 24 facilities. [1:07:12] So, what was supposed to, even with this problematic law, what should have gone back to facilities should have been 80% of 1.6 billion. [1:07:23] Which is 915. [1:07:25] Which is 915. [1:07:25] But the governor's response indicates that it was 915 collected. [1:07:33] There's a mismatch there. [1:07:35] In fact, if, Chair, if your math is right, that 915 is 80% of 1.6, then they actually collected 1.6. [1:07:48] Yeah, but then the gap between 1.6... [1:07:51] And then 687. [1:07:55] That's over 700 million shillings. [1:07:57] That can't be 80%, Chair. [1:07:59] There's a mix, the numbers are not adding up. [1:08:03] So, let's agree on the numbers. [1:08:04] Maybe, Chair, just I can clarify, yeah? [1:08:07] Yes. [1:08:07] When we audit these facilities, of course, I said 24 facilities collected 1.6. [1:08:12] Out of this 1.6, because of the timing difference, they transferred 915 to the special purpose account. [1:08:18] So, ideally, the entity needs to transfer 900 again from the special purpose account to the entities. [1:08:23] But they retain the 20% of and above. [1:08:26] So, you realize what has been transferred is 687 from the special purpose account instead of 915. [1:08:32] So, the difference is 228. [1:08:35] They could have ought to retain 183 million if they use that law. [1:08:40] So, the difference between 183 and 228 is 45 million, which audit created again. [1:08:46] But that 45 million, again, was transferred later on. [1:08:49] And there was an evidence for that support. [1:08:52] So, there is the total amount that the entity has collected, the facilities. [1:08:58] Auditor General, what is 1.616 billion? [1:09:01] What is that? [1:09:03] Is that cash collected from the facilities? [1:09:05] This man that gives the accounts. [1:09:09] Yes. [1:09:10] So, Governor, you collected 1.6 billion from hospitals. [1:09:14] That's a fact. [1:09:15] You know, from the entities themselves, which we audit. [1:09:17] You know, we also edit these facilities. [1:09:19] Yes. [1:09:19] If you do the cumulative, that's how they collected. [1:09:22] But you have a scheduled auditor. [1:09:24] Yes, yes. [1:09:24] There is a schedule when we do the audits. [1:09:26] Yes. [1:09:26] So, the governor is the collector and the receiver. [1:09:30] Did you receive 1.6 billion from the facilities? [1:09:33] I think what the auditor is clarifying is what he found at the facilities was that they had collected 1.6 billion. [1:09:43] What we are handling from the purposes of FIF is what facilities then transferred to the special purpose account, which is 950. [1:09:58] So, from that, the auditor indicated that he needed us to transfer back the entire 915, but we retained the 20% as per the law. [1:10:10] Maybe for us to understand, what happens to the 700 million between the 1.6 and 915 million? [1:10:16] Now, Chairman, when we look now at the audit of the entities, when we go to the PIC, then we now compare with the facilities. [1:10:27] What did you receive and what didn't you send to the SPA account? [1:10:33] Because, from what the auditor general has raised, there might be some money that facilities have received, but because of time or whatever difference, they have not transferred it to the SPA account. [1:10:47] So, we, from this angle of FIF, have no visibility of it. [1:10:52] No, no, the percentage is so huge. It's material. If it was a few millions, then you could talk of timing differences, but it's a gap of 700. [1:11:02] So, is it indicative of deduction at source, expenditure at source, without first remitting the money to the relevant funds? That's 700 million. [1:11:15] One could be, but what the auditor has said that the facilities had received, from his point, the money, [1:11:22] because I would have imagined that these would be claims they have made, and they are yet to receive. [1:11:29] But, from what he said, it's money they had received, which is, it means that it is money that the facilities themselves had not sent to the special purpose account. [1:11:40] No, I'm asking this question just to understand that process, because I would expect that if it was 1.6 collected, [1:11:46] and you have audited the financial statements for the facilities, then what would be transferred to the special purpose account cumulatively should be close to the 1.6, which is 80%. [1:12:09] Which is 80%. I'm struggling to understand why there is that gap. [1:12:15] I thought it should be the entire 1.6. [1:12:18] Yeah. [1:12:18] Then it is transferred. [1:12:19] Then it is sent back. [1:12:20] So, that's what the auditor should tell us, because a simple understanding means 1.6 should hit the county account. [1:12:30] Yes. [1:12:31] Yeah? [1:12:31] Yeah. [1:12:32] Then they return 80%. [1:12:34] 80% back to the facilities. [1:12:36] Yes. [1:12:38] So, we have not had, I have not received that explanation properly from the auditor. [1:12:43] No, I don't think it's an auditor's. [1:12:45] It's the entity's. [1:12:47] It's the entity's. [1:12:48] It's the entity's explanation. [1:12:50] Because they should agree with the entity that it's 1.6. [1:12:52] Yeah. [1:12:52] Then we do the math now. [1:12:55] So, does it mean 700 million was spent at source? [1:13:00] If the governor can clarify that, does it mean 700 million was spent at source? [1:13:05] Because you have the, you have chief officer in charge of health services. [1:13:10] They should be, they are the accounting officers and departmental heads. [1:13:13] So, out of this 1.6, and I don't think OEG will go and come up with 1.6 billion without going through the schedule of collections within those 24 facilities. [1:13:23] But, so, between 1.6 billion and 915 million, the difference of 700 million was it spent at source? [1:13:32] Chair, it's the same auditor who audits those hospitals. [1:13:37] He should be able to tell us, was the 700 million spent at source? [1:13:42] That difference? [1:13:42] Chair, that's why I believe the, the initial explanation should actually come from the OEG on the visibility of the 1.6 billion Kenya shillings. [1:13:54] Okay. [1:13:55] Let's allow the OEG to advise us. [1:13:57] Yeah. [1:13:58] Thank you, Chair. [1:13:58] When the facilities collect, usually say maybe the share has been paid to specific facilities. [1:14:06] And, based on the arrangement between the special purpose account and the facilities, they are supposed to fund these transfers. [1:14:13] So, for us, we normally have the cut of debt, which is 38 June. [1:14:17] So, at the cut of debt of 38 June, you may see the facility has collected. [1:14:22] But, probably, they will have the fifth day of the month for them to transfer the funds. [1:14:28] You know, there's what you call the timing difference. [1:14:29] So, at that point of the cut of debt, we realize the facility has collected 1.6 from their site. [1:14:35] But, what they have transferred as a cut of that debt of that June is 915, 941 to the special purpose account. [1:14:42] Because, they have to transfer funds to the special purpose account. [1:14:45] Their letter, the account, they retain 20% and retain. [1:14:49] So, there's timing difference. [1:14:50] Because, if probably we look in the month of July, the fund maybe has even been moved to special purpose account. [1:14:56] Can the timing difference be to the tune of 43%? [1:15:02] Because, that variance is 43% of the total. [1:15:05] A timing difference could be a month or a quarter. [1:15:11] Governor? [1:15:11] I think I may see where the auditor is coming from. [1:15:17] Because, the facilities, they report on accrual. [1:15:20] They report on what they have claimed from SHAR. [1:15:25] That's what they report as their revenue. [1:15:29] Not necessarily what SHAR has already reimbursed to them at any particular time. [1:15:37] So, they might be reporting in their books those amounts, but on the basis of the claims they have. [1:15:44] Because, every treatment you make, you file the claim. [1:15:50] But, the money does not necessarily come back to you in good time. [1:15:54] So, sometimes we even report, you know, you report revenues on the basis of those claims in the hope that you will receive back the money. [1:16:04] Perhaps, that is what the report is, because we have tightened, we have tightened a lot the issue of expenditure at source. [1:16:13] The facilities bring money to the SPAR. [1:16:17] But, again, the entities, we, the PIC, detailed reporting from the entities themselves. [1:16:28] That's when we, so today we were responding to the issue of what came to the FIF. [1:16:34] Thank you, Chairman. [1:16:35] That's why I was asking the auditor if the 1.6 billion actually hit the accounts of the hospitals and you did the total. [1:16:47] And, if you did so and 800, 915 was transferred to SPAR, then you must be knowing what happened to the other money and how it was expended. [1:16:58] Auditor? [1:16:58] Oh, yeah. [1:16:59] Because, you see, the auditor has used the language, the facility is collected. [1:17:04] And, English, on its face, a collection is money that has been received by the facility. [1:17:11] So, I don't know what else we want the auditor to explain. [1:17:13] You know, whereas what the governor says makes a lot of sense, are we okay? [1:17:22] Yeah? [1:17:23] So, whereas it makes a lot of sense, you know, Chair, you have asked the auditor more than three times, [1:17:28] whether that money, 1.6 billion, was realized by the facilities. [1:17:36] And the three times in your fund that the money was realized. [1:17:39] So, I don't know whether or not you want to change that position or what's going to happen. [1:17:45] Auditor, you remember you're not the one on the spot. [1:17:49] It's a county to explain. [1:17:51] So, I would be quite hesitant to put you on the spot for too long. [1:17:55] But, just clarify, because even though the English here does not need clarification for anyone who went to school. [1:18:03] Auditor, do you stand with your collected or it's something that you want to vary? [1:18:09] Here, we stand with the amount that has been collected, 1.6, because we also ordered these 24 health facilities. [1:18:17] And based on their collection, you can be able to confirm that this is the amount. [1:18:20] As a data date. [1:18:22] But, in terms of how the funds are moving from the facility itself to the special purpose account, there's always timing difference. [1:18:28] But, here, the main concern of the audit query is 915. [1:18:31] That requires to be fully funded back to the facility. [1:18:34] Yeah, 915, but we have also raised concern about the 700 in between. [1:18:38] Because, even if it was a timing difference, it cannot be 44%. [1:18:43] Because, the amounts that have been transferred are just 53 point something percent of what you report as having been collected. [1:18:53] So, I think this is a matter that perhaps needs to be looked into further. [1:18:58] Because, we focused more on the law, but not on the numbers. [1:19:04] These numbers must be looked at. [1:19:06] Now, Governor, is there a disbursement schedule for the facilities, so that facilities know that, on a monthly basis, they're going to get their money back? [1:19:18] Because, I think, coming from Homer Bay, there could be one or two facilities that I've heard have not gotten their disbursements since, perhaps, late last year. [1:19:29] Is there a disbursement schedule, or the disbursements are done as monies are received from Shah? [1:19:39] Thank you, Chairman. [1:19:40] In the earlier times of the process, there were delays here and there, but that was tightened. [1:19:46] So, if you send your money to the spa, it should not be more than four days before you receive it back to the facility. [1:19:54] And I want the finance chief officer who does that to just confirm whether there could be monies that can take more than a week in the spa. [1:20:08] Yeah, and you might also want to confirm whether Ndiwa, Ndiiru, Magunga, Rachwonyo East, and Suba Sub-County have got some outstanding disbursements, as you explained that. [1:20:27] Thank you, Chair. [1:20:28] The refines to facilities, we do them as fast as within the day, but not longer than within the week. [1:20:38] And that is how this spa that is locally operated has really been useful for us to ensure that that is done. [1:20:44] Unless a facility has not met any condition required, for example, bringing a certified statement showing what they received, which also rarely happens. [1:20:56] So, I can confirm that it doesn't go beyond a week, but it goes as fast as within a day we send money back to the facility. [1:21:04] Is there any reported challenge in some of those facilities that I mentioned in terms of delays in reimbursement? [1:21:14] Ndiwa, Ndiiru, Magunga, Rachwonyo East, Suba Sub-County Hospital? [1:21:22] Chair, that is reimbursement from SHA, not from the spa at the county. [1:21:27] There were some clarifications that were being required by the SHA National Office, and therefore, the reimbursement from the National SHA Office is what has a challenge, not from the local operations. [1:21:42] Okay. [1:21:42] So, on that, because when we went to Busia, I think we went to the general hospital, and the doctors there gave us certain challenges that they're facing with SHA. [1:21:52] What would be the challenge in Homa Bay so that even when you're engaging with the CS for health, it is something we can bring up that Homa Bay was before us, and several facilities have not been reimbursed for many months? [1:22:07] Because every time Duane comes, he says, everything is working well. There's no problem with SHA. [1:22:12] Chairman, I can say, overally, SHA has been reimbursing the facilities, but there are specific facilities in Homa Bay, public facilities that had challenges with SHA itself. [1:22:27] And when the AI system that SHA has picks any anomaly with the facility, they stop, and then you clarify, and then they reopen. [1:22:42] So, this is what happened to some of the facilities that you've mentioned. [1:22:48] Was Magunga one of them? [1:22:50] Yeah, and Magunga. [1:22:52] But a number of them, I want to ask you, Grace, the CC Health, to just confirm which of these facilities have been cleared by SHA, and which one is still left that we're still pursuing. [1:23:13] Thank you, Honorable Chair and members. [1:23:16] The facilities that have since been cleared are Ratchvonyo South and Ratchvonyo East. [1:23:21] We still have a problem with Newa, with Marili, with Suba, some county. [1:23:28] Magunga is one of them. [1:23:30] Nderu and Nyalgosi. [1:23:32] Thank you. [1:23:34] And is it a workflow problem, or there's a more fundamental problem? [1:23:39] I remember when the president was in Homa Bay, there were comments that were made which left us with egg on our face. [1:23:45] I think with regards to, it must have been Ratchvonyo, one of those hospitals where it was said that we are cooking up claims, [1:23:53] which I don't think is the nature of our people. [1:23:56] So are the challenges just workflow issues, or there are material things that this Senate can take up with the CS in charge of health? [1:24:17] Thank you, Honorable Chair, members. [1:24:19] A good number of the challenges relate to contractual provisions, [1:24:24] and I think our team is doing a very good job of providing information that is needed as required. [1:24:31] Some of it is just that Shah has been overwhelmed by requests and things that they have to look at at the different facilities. [1:24:40] So some of it relates to speed on the Shah side, some of it relates to contractual issues, [1:24:46] and some of it also just changing policies. [1:24:51] Shah has been changing policies very, very frequently, and it has taken our team some time to master that. [1:24:58] Okay, Honorable Members, I know we have gotten now into broader policy conversations. [1:25:06] We need to come back to the numbers. [1:25:08] Senator Marumi? [1:25:08] Specifically, Chair, for this query, the action taken by the management is that the management disbanded the funds to the respective Level 4 and Level 5 hospitals. [1:25:23] I'm imagining it's the 183 million that was retained. [1:25:26] And then you have the process of harmonizing the two laws has started. [1:25:32] That is the amending the law. [1:25:35] I don't know if that is adequate to mitigate on the query, but also we need to know what is happening now. [1:25:41] Are you still retaining the funds or now what is happening? [1:25:45] I think on the first part of the question, if you cannot agree on the 1.6 billion, then we cannot have a resolution. [1:25:51] So we need the auditor who will have to assure us whether that 1.6 billion is collected or accrued. [1:25:58] I think that's a starting point, because if the 1.6 billion is collected, then we have a much bigger problem of retention or drawing on funds at source. [1:26:08] So there's no way we can solve this matter until we establish the basis. [1:26:14] Governor? [1:26:15] Chairman, I wanted to agree with you that because our responses focused on the money that came to the spa, [1:26:26] if we could have an opportunity to look at the schedule from the auditor on the 1.6 so that we know exactly what animal we are handling. [1:26:39] So, Chairman, I wanted to agree with you that we will retreat and get the 1.6, whether it's accrued or whether it is actual. [1:26:50] Then we handle it from there. [1:26:52] And we will also be appearing before the PIC on the same with the entities. [1:27:00] Yeah, so since this is in the report that is before us, we cannot toss it to another committee, auditor general. [1:27:06] As we do our report, you will provide us with a schedule that provides evidence of the collections. [1:27:11] And if there's that gap of 700 million, we'll put the governor to task on it. [1:27:18] We could proceed to long outstanding trade and other payables, even though maybe for the benefit of everyone in the committee. [1:27:31] So, like for these facilities where there have been those technical challenges with SHA, [1:27:35] when a citizen comes to the hospital and there's no medication, how do you deal with that? [1:27:44] Or is there a stopgap funding measure? [1:27:48] Because if SHA fails, then it is a county government that has failed. [1:27:52] You know, you are the face. [1:27:54] You are the face of service delivery. [1:27:58] Chairman, it's a discussion we have had with SHA, including with the minister, [1:28:03] that for public facilities, if there is a challenge, should the SHA be stopped or should SHA continue to serve the public [1:28:14] as we'd handle any issues on the background? [1:28:19] And the idea should be that SHA should continue as you handle the issues on the background. [1:28:25] But right now, we have had to support those facilities from our exchequer side [1:28:31] to be able to handle, and the public is not able to access SHA. [1:28:38] But we are working around the clock to ensure that SHA is restored. [1:28:42] And I'm happy that some of the facilities that were off, like Rachwonyo South, Rachwonyo East, [1:28:48] they are now restored. [1:28:49] And we are sure that within the month or so, we should be able to restore the other facilities. [1:28:56] Okay. [1:28:58] Senator Sifuna? [1:28:59] Yeah, cheers. [1:29:00] We move to the trade data. [1:29:01] My hearing, the county governor to be saying that the people of Oma Bay [1:29:05] who have been going to this hospital or facilities have not been charged money that she has paid [1:29:10] or the county government has paid for that. [1:29:13] Because I remember recently, we were told that there was an outage in that SHA system. [1:29:18] And at least in Nairobi, our experience was totally different. [1:29:21] People were being turned away from facilities. [1:29:24] Governor, are you saying you are the ones who have been paying for those people in those hospitals [1:29:27] where the SHAs had issues? [1:29:29] No, I think, Senator, my point was because the facilities, especially at level 4, rely a lot on the FIF. [1:29:41] Without an active SHA program, they need to pay certain basic issues, including commodities and so on, [1:29:49] which we have supported them to support electricity and the other utilities. [1:29:55] But there are still out-of-pocket payments at your facilities because of this problem? [1:30:00] Yes. [1:30:01] Because of this problem, there are still out-of-pocket payments, particularly in the facilities that are facing this particular problem. [1:30:09] The 4 out of the 234 facilities, I think we have 4 of them now facing this SHA problem. [1:30:15] I think, Chair, if I got you correctly, what you're raising is if a facility has been blocked by SHA, [1:30:26] I'm a citizen of Omabe. [1:30:28] I have the SHA card. [1:30:32] I will not get medical attention in that facility. [1:30:38] I think that's the question the Chair is asking. [1:30:41] Then what happens to those innocent citizens of Omabe? [1:30:44] They have SHA, the facility that is run by the county has been blocked from SHA. [1:30:50] So how do they access health services, if that is the situation? [1:30:56] Maybe in addition... [1:30:57] Okay, Senator Chirake. [1:30:58] ...access services, they have to pay out-of-pocket because the challenges facing those facilities. [1:31:08] Are these the same facilities that the CS told us they were facing issues of fraud? [1:31:13] And then number two, do you as a county have indigent support to citizens who don't have the ability to pay for the medical services? [1:31:23] Thank you, Chair. [1:31:24] And for the record, Senator Chirake is the biggest defender of SHA in this committee. [1:31:28] So we'll be... [1:31:29] Chair, I'm the biggest defender of government. [1:31:32] I'm the biggest defender of broad-based. [1:31:34] And I'm the biggest defender of anything that government for the better of care. [1:31:39] Okay, that's extraneous. [1:31:40] And your governor also is the biggest defender of broad-based. [1:31:43] So let's come back to the audit. [1:31:47] Governor? [1:31:47] She did follow that you should be the biggest defender of mine. [1:31:50] Oh, no. [1:31:52] I think on the issue of these specific facilities, the discussion we have had, you can find that a facility has a case that can be said to be fraud, for example. [1:32:10] Maybe it is a case of not adjusting quick enough to the policies. [1:32:15] Maybe it is a question of people shared beds, so you claimed for 30 instead of 20 beds, which you're registered to have. [1:32:26] So those kinds of issues are the ones that are resulting in the blocking of facilities. [1:32:31] SHA generally, if I would say, chair, reimburses facilities and is a big improvement from the previous system that we had. [1:32:42] That I can say. [1:32:43] Me, the concern is this innocent Kenyan who has SHA, but comes to a public health facility. [1:32:51] But because of the mistake of that health facility, he or she is not able to access service using the SHA card. [1:32:59] What do we do? [1:33:00] I'm in total agreement with you, Senator Okongo, because, and this is the discussion we have had with the SHA and with the policy level, [1:33:10] that if a facility has an issue, the issue should be dealt with while the public continues to access services. [1:33:22] This is what we have raised. [1:33:25] So that the punishment, when you block a facility, the punishment is not on the administrator. [1:33:32] It is on the patient. [1:33:34] So we have asked that the policy be changed so that if there is an issue with the facility, let the administrator, administration of the facility, [1:33:45] who is the contract holder, because, you know, facilities sign direct contracts with SHA, [1:33:52] to let them deal with that as the facility continues to offer services to the public, which is not the case at the moment. [1:34:00] Okay. [1:34:01] Senator Sifuna, final. [1:34:03] Just a clarification. [1:34:04] Governor, you know, we in the Senate and you in the Council of Governors are actually on the same side. [1:34:12] I actually view these conversations here as you appearing at one of those facilities you're talking to, [1:34:18] because we're supposed to fight these causes together. [1:34:21] What we say out there, whether you are the biggest supporter of whatever, is something else. [1:34:26] But we shouldn't be hearing any complaints when it comes to service delivery in hospitals if SHA is working. [1:34:33] How much money does SHA owe, Homa Bay County, or 24 facilities in reimbursement? [1:34:40] I want to ask my health team to just work that out and share. [1:34:45] And also just confirm to us what is, my chair calls it an aging analysis. [1:34:50] Because when people go around saying this thing is working, and yet, maybe Homa Bay is prioritized in terms of payments. [1:34:57] But in Nairobi, SHA owes our hospitals a lot of money, and they are suffering. [1:35:02] Those are, you know, maybe we should start being like Cherarge and then our hospitals will be given money. [1:35:08] But we want to confirm, but we want to confirm that he has called himself the biggest defender of something. [1:35:15] Of course, yes, yes, yes, of sure. [1:35:16] So the CEC there should just confirm to me, if because Homa Bay is one of those counties, that cannot be an algorithm. [1:35:29] That's what I want to know. [1:35:30] That's what I want to know. [1:35:32] Governor, that's a political question you can ignore. [1:35:34] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. [1:35:39] Unless Senator Sifona, with your indulgence chair, gives us a system that works 100 percent anywhere in the world. [1:35:48] Every system has been changed. [1:35:49] Honorable senators, we are the ones who wrote the four laws when we are in Turkan. [1:35:54] So if it is not working well, it is our responsibility. [1:35:57] No, no, no, no, no, you can't, you can't, you can't, you can't take that responsibility to revisit them. [1:36:01] The argument is, if an entity has been blocked because of fraud, [1:36:04] You know, if it is blocked, I agree with the argument that the innocent Kenyans must serve. [1:36:10] But you also protect the resources that belong to the people. [1:36:12] No, that's okay. Let's allow Senator Sibura to finish. [1:36:15] I don't think when we write laws, we take on the responsibility of implementation. [1:36:19] Because what we were promised by the current administration is universal free health care. [1:36:26] So even one person going to a facility and not being able to receive medication is a matter of concern for us as a leadership. [1:36:33] Chair, the question of fraud is just one. [1:36:37] But for instance, Chair, if you take into account the recent collapse of that system of share, that is not a question of fraud. [1:36:45] And bearing in mind, Senator Cherarge, how much money the Kenyan taxpayer paid for that system, [1:36:51] I am not saying, Chair, that we expect 100%, but we are saying a system that expensive cannot be out of service for four days. [1:37:00] There's loss of lives in the country when things like those happen. [1:37:03] And that is nothing to do with fraud. [1:37:05] So we are within our rights. [1:37:07] We are within our rights to insist that because of the amount of money that we paid for that system, [1:37:12] my health care contributions here when I was elected here, I think they went up almost 30 times. [1:37:20] I pay over $30,000 these days and we used to pay NHIF a fraction of that. [1:37:24] And the way that program was sold to us is because Sifuna, you are well-to-do, you are earning a million shillings a month. [1:37:31] Let's contribute so that the other people who are unable to or don't have an income, the people in the villages in Karachiwonyo can be able to do what? [1:37:39] Access health care. [1:37:40] That is the reason why we supported the system. [1:37:43] Now, if it doesn't work, if there is even just one person in Karachiwonyo who is not receiving health care because the system is down, [1:37:51] a hundred and something billion k-a-shilling system on the chair. [1:37:54] So it's not to say that these questions are political, but health care is political. [1:38:00] No, I think the questions are proper. [1:38:02] We asked about the size of the debt. [1:38:05] You have the figures? [1:38:07] Maybe you could share. [1:38:11] Chairman, Shah owes us approximately $350 million to the facilities in Homabay. [1:38:23] Chairman, on the other... [1:38:26] And how old is that debt? [1:38:28] Is it a month, two months, a year? [1:38:30] They're just working on the aging. [1:38:33] I just wanted to bring the amount. [1:38:36] Chairman... [1:38:37] But even before you go there, Chair, if the Auditor General or the county entity itself is saying that in the entire financial year that is under review, [1:38:46] they themselves told us $900 and something was collected in all the facilities, right? [1:38:51] If Shah alone has $350 million in debt to the hospitals in Homabay, that's almost a third of the collections for the facilities, you know? [1:38:59] So when we bring out these things, don't make it look like it is political, [1:39:05] but if you have come to the doctor and you give me the wrong... [1:39:09] What is it called? [1:39:11] No, the wrong symptoms, Governor. [1:39:14] If you give me the wrong symptoms, I will not apply the right injection, and you know how we do it. [1:39:18] We want you to be paid the $350 million. [1:39:20] I think your preamble is what should carry the rest of the conversation, that we are on the same side. [1:39:29] When we ask these questions, it's to get a solution. [1:39:33] And when we find that $300 million is owed to Homabay, out of a potential collection of $1.6 billion or $900 million, it is significant. [1:39:42] And it is in these sessions that we find legislative interventions or just interventions we can call the CS for health. [1:39:52] But it shows that there's a problem if you don't have $300 million reimbursed on time. [1:39:58] Chairman, maybe I can just say this also. [1:40:01] Because in our language, something is said that the tail of a sheep is compared with the other. [1:40:10] If we compare the level of reimbursements, the amount in terms of reimbursements that Shire is giving to facilities, [1:40:21] in comparison to what NHIF was giving, Shire is much more enhanced. [1:40:26] If we compare the timeliness in payment, Shire is prompter than what NHIF was. [1:40:39] I'm just noting that in comparison. [1:40:43] Of course, there is no perfect system. [1:40:46] The promptness will determine once we get the aging analysis of the debt. [1:40:50] Yes, Chair. [1:40:51] Chair, let me just make a point, a simple but important point. [1:40:56] Governor, you and I and every Kenyan worker is not in arrears in their contributions to Shire. [1:41:11] None of us is in arrears. [1:41:14] There can never be an explanation why Shire really should hold, that's just one county, 350 million Kenyan shillings. [1:41:25] And you know what, Shireman and Governor and all of us, we can choose to compare NHIM and Shire or whatever it is that we want to do. [1:41:37] But you see, Governor, if Shire was working in Oma Bay or in Kitui, the first person that would know that Shire is working is a patient visiting a facility. [1:41:53] We don't need to tell them that it's working. [1:41:56] I mean, if it's working, it's working. [1:41:59] If it's not working, it's not working. [1:42:00] And we are talking about a situation, and I don't want to go into those comparisons, [1:42:04] where the Kenyan taxpayer has paid in excess of 100 billion Kenyan shillings for a technology that is supposed to support Shire, [1:42:19] a system that has been down for now almost a week or more. [1:42:27] So let's not even go there. [1:42:28] But if it's working, then Kenyan people will know it's working. [1:42:33] We don't need to tell them that it's working. [1:42:38] And for the amount of money that we have spent for that system, honestly, the uptime should be more than 97%. [1:42:48] You ask me for the cost. [1:42:50] Now, I know these members here are seized of this matter on the floor. [1:42:55] CS12 comes regularly. [1:42:57] What we must demand of Governor Wanga is to account for the 1.6 billion reported as collected. [1:43:04] That's what we must demand from Governor Wanga, that that money must go back to facilities. [1:43:08] What we must demand from CS12 is why 350 million remains undisbursed to the facilities. [1:43:16] So I think let's separate it. [1:43:17] Let's not attempt to over-explain the national government's role, [1:43:22] because this is a county government that is distinct. [1:43:26] I think that's where we are falling into a trap. [1:43:30] Governor, you got the aging? [1:43:31] Or it's something that can be provided later? [1:43:35] I think they're working on it, and we will be able to present it. [1:43:39] So we are clear on this particular matter that we must, the first thing we must confirm is 1.6. [1:43:44] And in terms of amendment of the laws, county laws, I think it would best serve governors to perhaps caucus [1:43:53] and have one standard amendment for the county laws or the national legislation. [1:44:00] In fact, amending one law is faster than amending 47 sets of laws, but we shall leave that to you. [1:44:05] Let's move to trade payables, long outstanding trade and other payables. [1:44:12] Auditor General. [1:44:14] Thank you, Shia. [1:44:16] Long outstanding trade and other payables. [1:44:18] The statement of the financial position, and as disclosed in North 20 to the financial statement, [1:44:23] reflect a trade and other payables balance of Kenya shedding 1,514,380,000. [1:44:32] Which includes a payable totaling to Kenya shedding 1,091,975,059 that has been outstanding for one year. [1:44:43] Contrary to Section 14.2 of the Public Finance Management County Government Regulation 2015, [1:44:49] which said that the debt service payment shall be the first touch in the county revenue fund, [1:44:54] and the accounting officer shall ensure that this is done to the extent that it's possible [1:44:57] that the county government does not default on the debt obligations. [1:45:01] In addition, although the management has provided a payment plan showing the order of the priority [1:45:07] they intend to use to clear the debts, the plan does not indicate when the payables will be settled. [1:45:13] In the circumstances, management was in breach of the law. [1:45:16] Thank you, Shia. [1:45:18] Governor, your response? [1:45:19] Thank you, Shia. [1:45:26] Management has noted the auditor's observation and wishes to clarify that it is committed to [1:45:32] settling pending bills in accordance with the pending bills action plan for financial year 25-26. [1:45:39] Out of the 1,5,1,524,513,380 outstanding bills as of 30 June 2025, [1:45:54] Kenya shilling 713,199,834 has so far been settled, leaving a balance of Kenya shillings 811,313,545. [1:46:04] Management is implementing the approved payment plan and has prioritized the settlement of eligible [1:46:10] and verified pending bills subject to availability of funds in line with the PFM county government's [1:46:16] regulations 2015. [1:46:18] The payment plan outlines the order of priority and timelines for settlement and the management [1:46:23] intends to settle the pending bills by the end of financial year 2026-2027. [1:46:29] Appendix 8A, pending bills progression summary, 8B, pending bills action plan for 2025-2026, [1:46:41] 8B, another one, current status of pending bills. [1:46:47] Governor, with the progress that you have presented there, how does that change, for example, [1:46:54] if you look at your note 20, that you had 148 million outstanding over three years. [1:47:00] When you look at pending bills as a first charge, with your payment plan, to what extent have [1:47:10] those figures changed? [1:47:13] Because, I mean, you would have pending bills under one year as you wait for your disbursements, [1:47:19] maybe one to two years as you wait for projects to complete. [1:47:22] But over three years is indicative of a problem. [1:47:29] You reported 148 million as bills exceeding three years. [1:47:33] Is there a specific plan to deal with debt over three years? [1:47:41] Chair, anaya. [1:47:43] Let's allow Senator Chiragay also to answer this question. [1:47:49] I have seen your response on this matter of pending bill, and I have noticed over 92% [1:47:55] of the pending bill of 1.5 billion was accrued by your administration, over 92%. [1:48:03] The 8% is historical. [1:48:06] Question one, can you segregate and give us the reason in detail? [1:48:11] That is question one, after what the chair has asked. [1:48:14] And number three, in this 92% of pending bill, are there pending bills that are tied to multi-year [1:48:24] projects that the county is undertaking? [1:48:28] And how much are we looking at? [1:48:30] And finally, chair, since I know we don't want to interrogate the chair of County Public [1:48:37] Accounts of Omer Bay, in the budget allocation, how much has it been in this financial year? [1:48:48] And the CCM Bureau is here, has been allocated to offset the pending bill? [1:48:53] Because looking at the aging analysis, it doesn't add up, considering the budget. [1:48:59] And finally, chair, just finally, sorry for taking long. [1:49:02] Governor, you have indicated that there were eligible pending bills. [1:49:10] In your answer, because I'm just reading your answer. [1:49:14] Chair, if you have noticed, the governor is talking as settling pending bills action and [1:49:23] also on, and has prioritized the settlement of eligible and verified pending bills. [1:49:31] So what is the basis of this? [1:49:34] Is it the control of budget that did verification or yourself? [1:49:38] And is there a report when you say eligible and verifiable, how much are you talking about [1:49:45] and ineligible? [1:49:47] Could it be connected to a historical pending bill, which you have, which is, which is related [1:49:55] to 811 billion? [1:49:57] So because it says eligibility and verifiable. [1:50:00] So what does, which ones are eligible? [1:50:02] So that maybe he has lumped up everything. [1:50:05] Chair, I yield back. [1:50:06] Fine, maybe, Governor, just take note so that we take all the questions. [1:50:11] We'll be able to move first. [1:50:13] Senator Sifuna. [1:50:14] Chair and Governor, I'm looking at the development expenditure pending bills as at 31st May 2026, [1:50:22] which I think is your annex 8C. [1:50:31] Are we together? [1:50:35] There is a document called Homer Bay County Development Expenditure Pending Bills as at 31st May 2026, [1:50:41] which would indicate that it is a current status, Honorable Chair. [1:50:45] Is that 8C or 8C? [1:50:47] I think it's, I have found it at 8C. [1:50:51] 8C? [1:50:52] Yes. [1:50:53] So there will just be like three items that maybe you can address as well. [1:50:57] I was picking at, I was picking out the high, high ticket issues. [1:51:01] There is a pending bill of 24 million for construction of Homer Bay County Stadium. [1:51:07] Is this the one that was renamed Rai Lodinga Stadium? [1:51:12] Yeah. [1:51:12] So I thought that the national government had told us that once the intervention was there, [1:51:17] it's number four on that list. [1:51:21] So just address us why there is still a pending bill of 24 million shillings for the stadium. [1:51:27] Secondly, Honorable Chair, at number nine there, there is an amount of 348,954,000 [1:51:35] that is a pending bill for construction of two-door pit latrine at Ngeri Beach in Kaksingri West Ward. [1:51:42] At number nine. [1:51:43] Chair, if the pending bill is 348,954, on a construction of a two-door pit latrine, [1:51:51] what was the cost of this project, Honorable Chair, [1:51:54] and does it make sense that latrines are that expensive to build in Homer Bay? [1:51:59] That is item number nine on that list. [1:52:12] Number nine. [1:52:13] Are we there? [1:52:14] And finally, Chair. [1:52:16] Oh yeah, there seems to be, I was struggling to follow, but I've seen it now. [1:52:20] Because that's the number nine on the second document. [1:52:24] Yes, Chair. [1:52:25] Because there are two documents. [1:52:28] Okay, I'm with you now. [1:52:29] Yes, there's the one that is titled Development Expenditure Pending Bills at 31st March, May 2020. [1:52:36] It comes after the summary of pending bills? [1:52:38] Yes. [1:52:38] Okay. [1:52:38] So, the number nine one, Governor, you'll explain to us why it's so expensive building toilets there. [1:52:45] And then, finally, there is the 3.588 million at number 19. [1:52:54] This is the construction of main block at Gingo Health Center in Suba South, Kaksingri West Ward. [1:53:00] So, just tell us the status of that project, whether it was complete or whether it is not. [1:53:07] That's all, Chair. [1:53:08] Chair, can I add on Senator Sifuna on number 28 and 29? [1:53:12] This one proposed completion of Governor's new office block of 7.9 million. [1:53:18] I thought the office block was completed. [1:53:21] And finally, number 29, Governor, you are proposing as construction of a gazebo at the new Governor's office of 2.8. [1:53:31] And we know what gazebo is. [1:53:33] Is it too cold in Naoma Bay? [1:53:35] You needed somewhere to light fire which was there. [1:53:39] Okay. [1:53:40] So, watch me. [1:53:41] Yeah, since you are having the second bite, make it brief. [1:53:44] That's it. [1:53:47] Governor? [1:53:50] Thank you. [1:53:51] Thank you, Chairman. [1:53:54] I will pick some and I will also ask the CC Finance to answer others. [1:54:02] So, starting with the question asked by Senator Gerard Gay on the office block. [1:54:12] I think it's the titling. [1:54:16] This was the Governor's office block which we moved to, which was the health building. [1:54:23] So, we completed it, stayed there as they were building the county headquarters. [1:54:29] And it was taken over by the health department because it was always the health, meant to be the health building. [1:54:40] The gazebo is a structure outside where you can meet with your workers, the healthcare workers and the others. [1:54:49] Instead of having tents, it's a capacity of about 300 people. [1:54:55] I think, Senator, you may have seen it. [1:54:56] I haven't seen it. [1:54:59] I've never been to Homabe. [1:55:01] Or the area, Senator, you should be specific. [1:55:05] Chair and Senator Homabe may have seen it. [1:55:08] Oh, yeah, been specific because there are many senators here. [1:55:11] So, and then coming to the question of Senator Sifuna on the two-door pit latrine, [1:55:18] the standard amount for the two-door pit latrines is about half a million shillings. [1:55:25] That's the cost of pitting it and building it. [1:55:31] It's usually about half a million shillings. [1:55:34] The cost is there about. [1:55:38] And so, three... [1:55:40] So, Governor, for instance, if there's a pending bill of 486,359, like at number 65 there, [1:55:47] it means you paid the contractor an initial amount of 20k. [1:55:52] Maybe we haven't paid them. [1:55:54] It's an average cost of 500, but when you're contracting, you could contract at 4.8, I mean 4.80, 4.60, [1:56:03] depending on where you're building it, the soil structure there, and so on. [1:56:09] Somebody could quote slightly less. [1:56:12] So, maybe that person has not been paid at all. [1:56:14] So, coming to the Raila Odinga Stadium in Homa Bay, [1:56:20] the phase one of this stadium was completed by the county government of Homa Bay [1:56:26] and opened in July of 2023. [1:56:35] Any obligations under that phase one are under the county government of Homa Bay. [1:56:41] The national government then came in to do the terraces around the stadium [1:56:47] because the first phase only had the main pavilion [1:56:50] but did not have the terraces around the stadium. [1:56:53] So, the national government picked up the terracing, [1:56:57] and that could be the confusion. [1:56:58] But what we owe, the county government owes to the contractors [1:57:02] who did the first phase of the stadium. [1:57:05] Now, if you look at the other members, is it on the same point? [1:57:14] On the same one, Chair, my concern is that the invoice date, [1:57:18] if you look at the column on supplier or contractor invoice date, [1:57:22] is indicated as 2019. [1:57:25] Governor, we are in 2026. [1:57:28] That is over seven years later. [1:57:30] Is this amount payable or is one of those that you've decided you're not going to pay? [1:57:34] No, the construction of the stadium took a bit of time [1:57:40] and we found when it had progressed and then we picked it from there. [1:57:45] We have made quite a bit of payments to the contractor [1:57:50] and we are at the very tail end of finalizing any pending bills around that stadium. [1:57:57] I think you'll need to tie it with the earlier question [1:57:59] on how you are treating the debt over three years. [1:58:03] Correct. [1:58:03] Because your records indicate 148 million was three years older. [1:58:08] Okay. [1:58:08] Yeah. [1:58:10] And I hope that you're going to give us that analysis [1:58:13] or your officers are going to give us that analysis. [1:58:15] Yes. [1:58:15] I'm going to hand that question over to them. [1:58:18] But before I hand it over, I'll go to the question [1:58:20] that Senator Chiraghi asked around the eligibility of the pending bills. [1:58:26] I think, Chairman, when we last appeared, we had indicated that we had formed [1:58:31] a pending bills verification committee and it finalized its work and presented a report. [1:58:40] Thank you. [1:58:40] So it means that the numbers that you reported of 1.52, those ones are legible. [1:58:47] Legible. [1:58:47] And those ones, you have made a commitment to pay them. [1:58:51] Yes. [1:58:52] Okay. [1:58:52] So, Chair, how much was ineligible and are there any challenges to that declaration [1:58:58] because somebody cannot raise a pending bill? [1:59:00] So out of this 1.5 that is legible, it would be better for people of Omer Bay to know [1:59:07] that how much are ineligible and what is the outcome of such process [1:59:12] so that, Chair, the county does not serve legal suits or being taken to court. [1:59:16] I think, Chairman, I will ask for the exact trigger to be presented. [1:59:23] But we had a very open process. [1:59:25] And when we finished the process, we called the contractors who had put in the bills. [1:59:33] We gave them the report. [1:59:34] We opened for appeal. [1:59:37] You know, the team went round. [1:59:38] So it was a very open process. [1:59:41] And we took a very, very competent set of teams. [1:59:45] And when we came here, you also told us to take it again to the internal auditor [1:59:48] because of the case in Kakamega. [1:59:51] The internal auditor to again verify it, which the internal audit team did. [1:59:56] So we had a very elaborate process around. [1:59:58] The question is the payment of the bills more than actually the eligibility of it. [2:00:03] I think there's general satisfaction around eligibility, even from the contractors. [2:00:10] The bigger question is, can you pay us quicker? [2:00:14] And that is the question the Chair was asking around the bills that are more than three years old. [2:00:19] So I want to ask the CC Finance to take up. [2:00:25] Thank you, Honorable Chair. [2:00:27] In the current budget, the total value for pending bills is at $480 million. [2:00:36] Senator sought that in trying to clear. [2:00:40] That's a budget? [2:00:41] Yeah. [2:00:42] That's a budget provision? [2:00:43] Yeah, that's the budgetary provision that we have now. [2:00:46] Chair, if we go to Appendix 8A, it gives us now historically where we are coming from. [2:00:53] And also the financial years that are affected for both recurrent and development. [2:01:04] When we got into office in 2022, a Chair, both historical pending bills and current, [2:01:14] then stood at $1.9 billion, of which, during the assumption of office, [2:01:20] what was handed over was about $740 million. [2:01:23] But the bulk of it then came through the pending bills verification task force, [2:01:29] which was way over $2 billion, around $2.21 billion. [2:01:33] But what was then considered eligible as a total to $1.9 billion. [2:01:38] Chair, in the financial year then, 2023-2024, that figure was reduced substantially to $1.192 billion. [2:01:47] Then now, in the year 2024-2025, there are those that were verified by the pending bills task force, [2:01:56] but they said, due to time constraints, we had to use our internal audit department to further confirm, [2:02:04] and liars with the office of the auditor general, to confirm that those are also held, [2:02:10] because they didn't visit the actual sites of where these works were done. [2:02:14] So, that figure then made a jump when we went to the financial year 2024-2025, [2:02:21] that took us to the $1.5 billion that is in question today. [2:02:25] However, Chair, as at 31st of May 2026, the county government has made substantial progress on our pending bills [2:02:33] and has reduced it to the current figure of $811,313, [2:02:38] which we are further making attempt to reduce by allocating $480 million. [2:02:48] So, in that $700 million reduction, because you have reduced it by $700 million, [2:02:54] from $1.5 to $811. [2:02:56] Yes, Chair. [2:02:57] How much of that debt is still older than three years? [2:03:00] Chair. [2:03:01] The reason I keep asking this is, you see, three, four years ago, there was a different government, [2:03:09] and you don't want to create an impression that bills from the old government are not being paid, [2:03:14] because, as you have explained, whatever you have here is verified. [2:03:19] And as we also said when you're here, that the Senate has got no power to tell you, [2:03:23] pay this bill and not that other one. [2:03:25] It's your internal processes. [2:03:26] So, out of these $148 million that you had reported as older than three years, [2:03:31] you have paid $700 million since the last audit. [2:03:35] How much has that figure moved over three years? [2:03:40] Chair, we gave priority to historical pending bills, [2:03:44] and there are just a few historical pending bills that are outstanding, Chair, in my estimation, [2:03:51] but I will be able to provide the data from my team. [2:03:53] Can you provide a ballpark figure just to get... [2:03:57] About $55 million of the historical pending bills could be outstanding now. [2:04:02] The reason... [2:04:03] It's better to get the actual... [2:04:05] Okay. [2:04:05] Chairman, allow us to get the actual. [2:04:08] The actual. [2:04:08] And as you get that, I wanted to find out how much of that relates to statutory contributions, [2:04:14] gratuities, staff payables. [2:04:16] Do you have any search outstanding? [2:04:22] Yeah, Chair, we'll be able to provide the data shortly as the meeting progresses. [2:04:27] Senator Sifuna? [2:04:28] No, Chair, the amount of pride I've seen Homa Bay taking in this stadium, [2:04:34] and the fact that it is named after my former boss, [2:04:38] I think it's very unfair to have a pending bill from 2019, [2:04:41] which essentially, Governor, would be attributable to phase one of that stadium, right? [2:04:46] So, I'm hoping that in the budget, what you've set aside, [2:04:51] when next you appear here, we will not have pending, [2:04:55] because I don't want that contractor to be crying in Raila's name. [2:04:58] It has not even have to be the next meeting. [2:05:02] Because the officer said he's getting the exact details of the $55 million. [2:05:08] Yes. [2:05:08] Yeah. [2:05:09] So, once he gets that, we can be clear and give specific directions. [2:05:15] Thank you, Chair. [2:05:15] Yeah, I'm hoping that it is part of that $700 million that I've been paying. [2:05:19] Chair, maybe, Governor, we were in that stadium during the revolution conference. [2:05:25] So, you said that as this was done, [2:05:27] it cannot be also being done for the entire stadium or only at the pavilion? [2:05:34] So, sorry. [2:05:35] So, I take note of Senator Sifuna's point [2:05:38] that nobody should be crying in Baba's name. [2:05:42] So, we have made quite a bit of progress in paying the contractor in question. [2:05:49] So, I think maybe that earlier invoice should have been... [2:05:52] But I'm sure we've paid him a lot more even after the 2019 invoice. [2:05:57] But coming back to... [2:05:57] Can you just maybe... [2:05:59] Do you already have the data that you're saying you're analyzing? [2:06:02] No, they're doing... [2:06:03] Because you're saying you have reduced it to $55 million. [2:06:05] No, what we said... [2:06:07] So, maybe you might find it has been knocked off. [2:06:09] Let us work out the actual figure and give it to you. [2:06:14] Because you said how much of the 701 has reduced the earlier bills. [2:06:18] And how much of it relates to staff gratuities, staff payables, and statutory deductions. [2:06:26] Deductions, exactly. [2:06:27] So, I think that is what we must provide, which is coming. [2:06:33] But I wanted to answer Senator Terrague's question. [2:06:37] The first phase was the main pavilion, the VIP pavilion. [2:06:44] The second phase was the terraces and the canopies of the rest of the stadium. [2:06:49] It was first 2,000-seater, now it's 12,000-seater. [2:06:53] Thank you, Chair. [2:06:54] So, is it now...