Lindsay Clancy trial: Patrick Clancy takes the stand — Case by Case — "48 Hours" Podcast

[00:00:00] Caroline Polisi: As a warning, some of this content contains graphic and disturbing details, including discussions of suicide and the killing of children. So please listen or watch with care. We'll have resources at the end of the episode. [00:00:19] Speaker 2: Cora was into princesses. And she had a lot of friends. And she just liked taking care of people. [00:00:41] Speaker 3: Is Dawson correct? [00:00:44] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:00:45] Speaker 3: What kind of things was Dawson interested in? [00:00:50] Speaker 2: Using the firefighters and trucks. And, um, he liked Paw Patrol. [00:01:04] Speaker 3: Exhibit 11, Helen. He's only eight months old, correct? [00:01:11] Speaker 2: Correct. [00:01:13] Speaker 3: Did he have any disorder? [00:01:16] Speaker 2: He was just a happy baby. [00:01:18] Speaker ?: Happy baby. [00:01:19] Caroline Polisi: That's Patrick Clancy testifying on Monday, July 27th, in the murder trial of his ex-wife, Lindsay Clancy. The Duxbury, Massachusetts mother is charged with three counts of first-degree murder in the January 2023 deaths of the couple's children. Five-year-old Cora, three-year-old Dawson, and eight-month-old Callen. There is no dispute that Lindsay strangled and killed their three children at the family's home after sending Patrick out for errands. What the jury has to decide is if Lindsay will be found guilty of murder or if she shouldn't be held criminally responsible for those killings due to her defense of postpartum psychosis. Lindsay faces a penalty of life imprisonment without parole if convicted. But just to be clear, even if she is found not criminally responsible, she will be civilly committed to a state mental health facility where she would remain until doctors and the court determine that she's no longer a danger. And that could last indefinitely. I'm CBS News legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Caroline Polisi, and this is Case by Case. Joining me today is CBS News correspondent Chanel Call, who's been reporting from the trial in person. Thank you so much for joining us today, Chanel. I've been following your coverage on the CBS Evening News and all over our social feeds. It's just wonderful to have you here. [00:02:43] Chanel Call: Thanks so much, Caroline. I appreciate that. This is actually my first time in Plymouth, Massachusetts, so I'm coming to you from my hotel room today because it's actually raining outside. And so we couldn't come to you from outside the courthouse. But yeah, it's been a pretty wild and heavy week here. [00:02:56] Caroline Polisi: So, Chanel, I'm eager to hear your insights from inside the courtroom. But before we dive in, I just want to remind our audience that Case by Case covered the events leading up to this trial in a previous episode. And if you haven't listened or watched it yet, you can find the Lindsay Clancy case, a family tragedy on trial, wherever you find your podcasts. So, in that episode, we went deeper into the definition and discussion around postpartum psychosis and depression. But just to recap, postpartum psychosis is a mental health condition that can occur soon after giving birth. And it's categorized by the medical community as a mental health emergency that can cause hallucinations, delusions, paranoia, and other behavioral changes. [00:03:42] Chanel Call: Yeah. And Caroline, I don't know about you, but I had never even heard of postpartum psychosis or PPP until this week. You know, I'm not blessed with being a mother just yet, but, you know, I've had friends and family members that have gone through postpartum depression or baby blues and I've heard about that. But I think what I learned this week is that is very different than postpartum psychosis. Like, psychosis is something that is very rare, very serious, but look, it is preventable. It is treatable. And a lot of the medical experts that we talked to this week were saying that is something that you really need inpatient care for. [00:04:14] Caroline Polisi: Yeah, absolutely. So, on that last episode, the Clancy case generated a lot of debate from our audience. I was just looking through some of the comments and there are some very strong opinions about this case. [00:04:27] Chanel Call: I mean, lots of hot takes, right, Caroline? This is a complicated case. It's also a really emotional case. And maybe because a lot of us have a certain perception or idea of the role mothers should play in society and our families, you know, people feel really strongly about this. A lot of people sharing their own experience with postpartum depression or even postpartum psychosis. And then there's other people who have the other perspective here that agree with the prosecution, Caroline. People that think that this had to be something that was premeditated. This had to be something that was calculated. And they believe she should be held criminally liable. [00:04:59] Caroline Polisi: Yeah, this has just opened up a whole discussion around women's health care, mental health, things of that nature. And you're right. I mean, the comment sections, it's a lot of women, a lot of mothers having very strong opinions. I want to get into the details, Chanel, with you about this really intense case. So the trial kicked off with the jury selection on Monday, July 20th, over three years since the killings. And for such a tragic and well publicized case, I mean, I would imagine it'd be really hard finding jurors who could remain impartial. [00:05:35] Chanel Call: Yeah, absolutely, Caroline. You know, this was a high profile case, not just here in Massachusetts, but across the country. So I think it was always going to be a challenge to find jurors who were not going to have an opinion, who were not going to come into this with any kind of bias, especially when it comes to women. When it comes to female jurors, there were several women who spoke about how being a mother was going to make it difficult for them to come into this and see some of the evidence and look at that evidence fairly. [00:06:01] Caroline Polisi: There was even one woman who left the courtroom in tears, you know, not only was it difficult to seat this jury because of the sensitive nature of this evidence, but I actually noticed, you know, the judge, he instructed the jury to really try their best to disregard any intense feelings they may have of, you know, like sympathy or emotion that the evidence might produce in them and really use it only for evidentiary value. But it's just, you know, it's difficult. It's difficult to hear. It's difficult to experience. And it's difficult to see. [00:06:32] Chanel Call: Yeah. And we sort of saw that play out in day two of the trial. You know, prosecutors were there. They played that 911 call that Patrick had made to police the night that he came home, the night he found that his children were killed. And before that happened, that's exactly what the judge did, right? What you mentioned, where they're instructing the jury to listen to this call and to just consider the facts and set aside the emotional value of that 911 call. But I have to say, you know, I was in the courtroom, Caroline. I heard this call. This was a really chilling call. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be sitting on that jury and, you know, be tasked with separating the emotion from the facts here. [00:07:10] Caroline Polisi: Yeah, I mean, I can't even imagine it. But let's let's talk about opening statements. They began this week and what it was like inside that courtroom. [00:07:20] Chanel Call: Well, the courtroom was was full. There were people in Lindsay's family, her sister, her parents were there. There was three rows of the media as well. And, you know, there's lots of people from the community who showed up because there's just so much public interest in this case. Something interesting that I noticed, Caroline, was like 90 percent of people from the community on day one that showed up for day one of this trial were actually women. [00:07:40] Caroline Polisi: Let's play a portion of those opening statements. So you'll hear from the prosecution first and then the defense. [00:07:47] Speaker 5: This is not a case about the Lindsay Clancy that sits before you today. This case is about the Lindsay Clancy on January 24th, 2023, at the time of the crimes. This was not a woman in the throes of psychosis on January 24th, 2023. This was a woman who acted intentionally, rationally and swiftly to accomplish a very specific goal to kill. [00:08:17] Speaker 6: This is a woman that did not get the medication, did not get the medical treatment that she so deserved. This is a woman that was suffering from psychosis at the time that she went down to that basement. She had no motive. She loved her children. She intended to kill herself. She didn't fake that. [00:08:47] Chanel Call: So, Caroline, what's happening here is you're hearing the prosecution sort of paint this picture of Lindsay that is somebody who thought this out, someone who was very calculated, was very deliberate, someone with a sound mind. That's really the key word here. But then you have the defense telling a very different story, a story, Caroline, about someone who was experiencing really serious mental illness in the months leading up to the moment that she killed her three children. [00:09:12] Caroline Polisi: So, the prosecution's opening was really foreshadowing how they later dealt with Patrick Clancy on the stand and the types of questions they were going to ask him, like if Lindsay showed any signs of having a mental breakdown. [00:09:26] Chanel Call: Well, look, I think that what the prosecution was trying to do from day one was basically tell a story of a woman who felt like life was too overwhelming. She was anxious about going to work, apparently. And there were a lot of references to her character in terms of being too controlling, and that's why she had to choose to do this. And remember, Lindsay is there, Caroline. She's there in the room during these opening statements. She was quite visibly emotional during some of that. She even broke down into tears at one point. [00:09:54] Caroline Polisi: Now, the defense, on the other hand, emphasized that she really had no motive and that she loved her children, that she repeatedly sought treatment for her mental health struggles. And the defense is arguing that Lindsay Clancy should not be held criminally responsible by reason of mental disease or defect. And in Massachusetts, the law not only considers whether Lindsay knew what she was doing was wrong, but also if she was able to act on that understanding at the time. So here, this test is not only was she able to tell the difference between right from wrong, but also could she control her own actions? [00:10:32] Chanel Call: That's what's so interesting about this story, right? And you know this because you have a legal background, but of course, the burden of proof here is on the prosecutors. So, you know, we're hearing about her mental health. We're seeing that a lot of it in the last few months before the killing was pretty well documented. And, you know, in fact, we heard from her ex-husband, Patrick Clancy, testifying this week that they tried multiple times, he said, to try to get treatment. They even checked her into a hospital, she went to the ER, she was prescribed all of these different medications, and yet here we are. [00:11:04] Caroline Polisi: Yeah, I mean, you know, from a tactical standpoint, I think the prosecution, you know, can certainly concede that she was having mental health struggles. They just have to show that she was not in a state of psychosis where she couldn't recognize what she was doing was wrong or that she couldn't conform her conduct to the law. So, you know, that's the burden, you're right, is on the prosecution, not the defense here. [00:11:27] Chanel Call: Yeah, and look, they have actually conceded that, look, this is someone who we agree struggled with their mental health. But, you know, my sense here, Caroline, is like the argument from their perspective is hinging on the idea that she wasn't in a state of psychosis on the day that she killed her children. And we're seeing this play out in the trial because even though we're in early days, we've seen them try to hammer this argument home three times. We heard Patrick Clancy taking the stand and being questioned by prosecutors, and he had actually said that, in his view, Lindsay was having one of the best days on the day that this happened, that she killed her three children. And then on Wednesday, we also heard from someone who was a manager at CBS saying that, well, when I talked to Lindsay on the phone earlier that day, she seemed to sound normal. They also brought a host from the restaurant 3V, which is where Patrick picked up takeout dinner from that night as well while he was gone from the house. And the host said, yes, I also took Lindsay's order on the phone. She seemed to sound normal. So I think that that's what they're trying to prove is like this is someone who was fine on the day of this killing. [00:12:33] Caroline Polisi: So, as we noted, the prosecution did call Patrick as their first witness. And, you know, people have been pontificating about what this testimony was going to be. It was really highly anticipated because he, you know, had the firsthand experience living with Lindsay leading up to these killings. And, you know, he was obviously the first on the scene. What was the reaction in the courtroom when he entered? [00:12:59] Chanel Call: Yeah, Caroline, I think there was so much natural curiosity about who this person is, what they're going to say on the stand. And one of the big reasons for that is because we saw what he said just a few days after his children were killed. He put out this statement on a GoFundMe page where he actually asked people to forgive Lindsay for what she did. And I think that caught a lot of people off guard. And I think it also proves this case is so much more complicated, so much more nuanced and probably way less cut and dry than people think it is. And when he was on the stand, Caroline, I have to say he was pretty calm. He was pretty measured. You know, there were moments where he got emotional. He took some heavy, deep breaths, especially when he talked about, you know, the nice and the rosy memories of his children. [00:13:41] Caroline Polisi: Yeah, I mean, his testimony was just painful to watch. I noticed he was, like, taking these deep, intentional breaths. Like, he was really trying to calm himself down. Like, it was taking every ounce of his energy to sort of keep it together up there. I mean, I think it's likely that this is the first time he's seeing a lot of this excruciating evidence. You know, he has been, as you noted, really historically sympathetic and supportive of Lindsay. I remember that really extensive interview he gave to The New Yorker in 2024. He said, I wasn't married to a monster. I was married to someone who got sick. [00:14:18] Chanel Call: And, you know, given that he's already been pretty public about how he feels about Lindsay's role in all this, I just wonder, like, because you come from this with a legal perspective, why do you think the prosecution would have asked him to testify first? [00:14:31] Caroline Polisi: Yeah, I mean, I've been asking myself that as well, because it was sort of bumpy in the beginning there. You could tell it was a little contentious. Like I said, in some ways, he's a hostile witness, right? It seems pretty clear which side he falls on. But I think from the prosecution's perspective, you know, he was first on the scene of the killings. And, you know, a lot of times in these types of cases, I think the prosecution feels it's best to lay out a timeline chronologically of the events of that evening so that they're laying the foundation of what happened. I also think it could be they want to get this really emotional testimony out of the way from the beginning, like we were talking about before. That way, it's not like as fresh in the jurors' minds when they go back to that deliberation room. So, you know, since the January 2023 killings, a lot of people want to know, what's the status of Patrick and Lindsay's relationship today? [00:15:27] Chanel Call: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, we know that Patrick and Lindsay got divorced after their children's death. Patrick later got remarried. We also understand that he moved to New York City after all this happened. [00:15:36] Caroline Polisi: Yeah, I mean, I noticed he was wearing a wedding ring during his testimony. So the prosecution questioned him extensively about Lindsay's demeanor after giving birth to each child and her pattern sort of becoming more anxious as she neared her return to work and following that maternity leave. Just as a reminder, you know, Lindsay worked as a labor and delivery nurse at MassGen. I mean, one of the things that came out in testimony is their firstborn daughter was named after the first baby that Lindsay delivered at MassGen. Yeah, you know, they also asked Patrick about Lindsay expressing thoughts of harming the children. And I want to play a clip of some of that exchange. [00:16:23] Speaker 3: How many times did she tell you this, that she had thoughts of harming the kids? [00:16:28] Speaker 2: A couple of times. [00:16:29] Speaker 3: And was that a couple of times over the course of a night or two in December? [00:16:33] Speaker 2: Yeah. [00:16:35] Speaker 3: And as a result of her telling you this, that she had thoughts of harming the kids, what did you do? [00:16:42] Speaker 2: Her parents came up and I think I asked her at some point, you know, do you feel like you need to be kept away from them? And she said no. And then, you know, it was very confusing because a minute later she was making them lunch or playing with them or, you know, getting ready for bed or whatever it was. [00:17:03] Speaker 3: So it was confusing in that she wasn't physically harming them at the time, but was having had had these thoughts. Is that what you're saying? [00:17:11] Speaker 2: Right. I never saw Lindsay harm the kids. [00:17:14] Chanel Call: So, Caroline, I think this this exchange is so interesting because that sort of back and forth is exactly what doctors that I've been speaking with this week have described is what women that are going through postpartum psychosis experience. You know, you can be fine one moment, the next moment you're hearing voices, you have those intrusive thoughts. And a lot of Patrick's testimony this week has actually echoed that. In fact, just on Wednesday during day two of the trial, he talked about how he's left the kids alone with Lindsay, you know, several times, even overnight in the weeks leading up to the killings. [00:17:47] Caroline Polisi: Yeah. Yeah. They also asked him if he was aware that Lindsay only took a small amount of the pills prescribed by these, you know, various medical professionals. This, you know, I think is a really important point because the defense is arguing that she was dangerously over medicated. And I thought the defense did a really good rebuttal to this picture that the prosecution was painting that she didn't take her meds as prescribed. Patrick pushed back really hard saying she did take the medication as prescribed and that, you know, the pill bottles that the prosecution was referring to that only had, you know, a few pills taken out of them. That wasn't the entirety of the pills that she was prescribed. In fact, there was this like intense moment in court where the defense attorney, Kevin Reddington, came up to Patrick and, you know, one by one showed him some empty prescription bottles that were in Lindsay's bedside table. As if to say, well, here are multiple bottles of prescriptions that she did take. They're empty, right? So I think that really poked some holes in the prosecution's sort of theory. And, you know, jurors don't like it when they feel like either they've been lied to or they're not getting the full story. So I think that could have done some damage to their case. [00:19:11] Chanel Call: Well, I think this whole idea of which medications and how much of it she was on is going to be a big part of this trial, especially if the defense is trying to say that this is someone who was overmedicated. You know, Patrick was asked a lot about this while he was on a stand this week and he said it's true. Yes, she was prescribed a long list of medications, but he really made a note of saying she wasn't taking all of them. There were over a dozen, you know, Caroline. But he said multiple times, this is not a situation where she was taking over a dozen medications at any given time. As for which medication she was taking and how they may have interacted with each other, that's going to be something that, you know, hopefully we learn more about because I'm sure we're going to hear from doctors and other health care providers who are going to take the stand later on in this trial. [00:19:53] Caroline Polisi: And one nuance I think that came out is it's not necessarily they're arguing that she was overmedicated so much as she was on the wrong medications, right? We heard in that opening, like, perhaps she was misdiagnosed and, you know, she wasn't feeling well on some of these medications. And so they were really, like, trying to get her to the right medication. [00:20:16] Chanel Call: Part of it is, like, she didn't actually get a diagnosis, right? Like, the defense is arguing that, yes, she was suffering from PPP, but, you know, something that some of the doctors I've been speaking to this week have made a point of saying is, like, it doesn't appear as though a lot of health care providers are equipped with enough advanced training to even see some of the red flags sometimes. So she didn't get a clear diagnosis. [00:20:39] Caroline Polisi: Yes, we need to hear from experts because there's so much out there, especially, I mean, on social media, this back and forth about whether or not it was appropriate for her to have been prescribed so many different medications. But I think we're getting a clearer picture and an outline of the timeline of which medication she was on and when. And we should also note that both Lindsay and Patrick have civil suits against some of the health care providers in this case. Now, the prosecution also questioned Patrick about one instance in November of 2022 when Lindsay went to the hospital. [00:21:15] Speaker 3: And why did she go to the South Shore Hospital that day? [00:21:20] Speaker 2: I believe that day it was because she basically went 48 hours without sleeping. [00:21:27] Speaker 3: And was she having heart palpitations? [00:21:30] Speaker 2: I think so, yeah. [00:21:32] Speaker 3: Were you aware that she had taken a weed gummy that day? [00:21:39] Speaker 2: I don't recall. [00:21:40] Speaker 3: And are you aware that she didn't tell medical staff at the hospital when describing her symptoms and her medication that she left out, that she had used marijuana? [00:21:52] Speaker 2: I wasn't with her, so I don't know what she talked about at the hospital. [00:21:56] Caroline Polisi: So, in their opening statements, the prosecution alleged that Lindsay manipulated her health care providers, sought quick and easy fixes, and really disengaged from treatment whenever she didn't like the plan. Was the prosecution trying to poke holes in Lindsay's credibility? [00:22:13] Chanel Call: Well, I mean, just remember here, what the prosecution's job is, is try to prove to jurors that Lindsay was of sound mind when this happened, that this was calculated, it was premeditated. So, this is a line of questioning that's going to be them trying to make a case to jurors that she withheld some information from some of her doctors. I will say, though, that a lot of the experts that I've been talking to are, again, saying this is a pretty hard thing to diagnose, postpartum psychosis. You know, are there enough health care providers in this country that know enough about it to distinctively diagnose these cases and actually give people the care and the treatment they need before it's too late? [00:22:49] Caroline Polisi: Yeah. And then there was this moment when they asked Patrick if he was aware that Lindsay had taken selfies at the hospital one night when she was admitted. Let's play a clip. [00:22:58] Speaker 3: Were you aware that that night, while at the hospital, Lindsay was taking selfies? [00:23:08] Speaker 2: No. [00:23:10] Chanel Call: Yeah, and Caroline, this was no doubt a pretty jarring moment in court. Like, you have this woman who was in the ER taking a selfie, allegedly. You know, she'd been transferred to McLean Hospital, which, if you aren't familiar, McLean isn't just any hospital, right? I mean, this is the country's, one of the country's leading mental health facilities. So there is someone here who is reportedly really suffering, but also taking selfies. That can be something that's confusing for jurors to digest. I will note, it is not something, interestingly, that the defense circled back to at any point to try to iron out or explain, like Kevin Reddington did on some of the other notes. So we'll just have to see how this sits with those jurors. [00:23:47] Caroline Polisi: Yeah, I thought that was interesting, you know, from a defense standpoint, but that really struck out to me as well. On Wednesday, the 911 call that Patrick made the night of the killings was played in full for the jury. But Patrick had filed a motion asking the judge to keep that call private from the media and the general public, right, Chanel? [00:24:09] Chanel Call: Yeah, so what happened was after jury selection wrapped up and we knew who was going to be seated, Patrick basically put in this request and the judge blessed it, essentially. And the ask was that they keep certain evidence private. So, you know, that graphic 911 call, that was one thing. So the jurors heard it. We, the media heard it. Any community public members that were sitting inside court, they got to hear it. But this is not something that we could replay, repurpose in any way. [00:24:39] Caroline Polisi: Yeah, and Patrick was actually excused from the courtroom during that time. But you were there in person to hear that 911 call along with the jurors. I mean, I mean, that must have been just incredibly emotional. You could see Lindsay clutching her attorney's hand and at one point breaking down, sobbing. I mean, what was it like in that courtroom? [00:25:03] Chanel Call: I mean, this was for sure the most traumatic and painful moment inside the court since this trial began. And yes, of course, we're in early days. But I think we all knew that we were going into day two of this trial expecting to hear that 911 call. You know, you hear the moment that Patrick finds Lindsay in the backyard when he gets home from running those errands. Then you hear him, you know, phoning 911. He's describing some of the injuries to her neck, to her wrists. And then you also hear the moment when paramedics arrive to take care of her and to check on her. And he says, you know, I'm going to go down to the basement. I'm going to check on the kids. Because he had asked her earlier, and you can hear him asking on that call, like, where are the kids? And she says in the basement. And I don't think in that moment, Caroline, that he realized that, you know, they'd been harmed. Perhaps maybe he thought she had put the kids in the basement while she tried to harm herself upstairs in the bedroom. And then that's when it gets really, really chilling. You know, he's calling out to the kids. They obviously don't respond. And then you hear that moment where he sees them in the basement. Caroline, I just have chills, you know, thinking about hearing that again right now. It's like he's shrieking. He's wailing for several minutes on end as he's discovering one by one that they were in the basement strangled. You know, we hear the operator asking him, what happened? What happened? And eventually, Patrick says she killed the kids. And, you know, it was incredibly difficult in the courtroom. A lot of people were visibly emotional. I was looking around. There were multiple people who broke down in tears, including, of course, Lindsay, because she was sitting in the courtroom during this call. And we'd heard through her lawyer that this was the first time she heard the call. [00:26:49] Caroline Polisi: That makes sense. I think it's likely the first time that both Patrick and Lindsay are hearing and seeing this evidence for the first time. So the prosecution's questions, I mean, they had to. They really went into detail about how Patrick found Cora, Dawson, and Callen's bodies in the basement. It was harrowing. That was definitely one of the most awful, gut-wrenching moments to hear from that night. What was Patrick's demeanor, having just to recount those events? [00:27:19] Chanel Call: I mean, I don't think you or I could imagine how difficult this would have to be. You lose your children, and now here you are, taking the stand, recounting every single, you know, harrowing detail. You have this father that found out that his three children were killed in their family home by a wife who he says he loved very much. He says that he was so close to. You know, all of it is so unbelievable. And now here he is reliving so much of that in court, in front of a jury, in front of the public, in front of the media. In terms of his demeanor, Caroline, you know, I think he was pretty solemn. He described, you know, how and where he found the children in a very matter-of-fact way. I do think that he got more emotional when he talked about the children's personalities. You know, you play that clip right off the top of the podcast here when he talked about Cora loving princesses. You know, those were the moments, I think, where we saw a bit more emotion from him. And then we saw him return to the stand later on in the day. You know, he was cross-examined by the defense team. And Lindsay's defense lawyer, Kevin Reddington, who we've talked about, you know, he showed a bunch of photos of Lindsay, of Cora, of Dawson from Lindsay's Facebook page. And at one point he even brought this book, and the title here is, Good Moms Have Scary Thoughts. And he asked Patrick if he knew that Lindsay had this book, and Patrick had said that, you know, she had a lot of books on these kinds of topics. He's probably seen it, he said, but, you know, didn't recall exactly this one. But I'm just curious, like, you know, in your perspective, from a legal strategy point of view, Caroline, why would Reddington be pulling up books like this? What's the point here? [00:28:57] Caroline Polisi: Well, first, I mean, he's laying the foundation with those photographs, right? She, by all accounts, was this loving mother. I think he's trying to show what a dedicated mom she was, and then showing that she was having issues and that she was trying to get help. I mean, I think along similar lines, he also asked Patrick if he had left Lindsay home alone with the kids to go out to things like brunch and trips and friends. And, you know, he did, right? So let's play a clip of the defense's questioning here. [00:29:26] Speaker 6: So for two days, two nights, a month and a week or so, before she killed the children, she was home with the kids for two days. Is that right? Right. Fair to say that you also had your friends that you would do brunch with on occasion, Sundays or weeknights or whenever, guys night type thing? [00:29:49] Speaker 2: Yeah. [00:29:50] Speaker 6: And you'd be out with your friends. If she wanted to kill the kids, she certainly could have done at that time when you're out, right? In theory. [00:29:57] Caroline Polisi: So here, I mean, it looks like the defense's argument is that Lindsay couldn't have planned to harm those kids that night since there were, you know, plenty of opportunities for her to have done so before. [00:30:09] Chanel Call: Yeah, I mean, I think that's the case that the defense team is trying to make here. And it's something that Patrick Clancy actually echoed many times as well. You know, he said that, yes, she admitted to him that at times she was having those kinds of graphic and intrusive thoughts. And he actually asked her when she talked about ideas of self-harm or potentially even harming the children that he said, you know, Lindsay, should you be separated from the children? And she said no. And so, you know, given all the testimony that we've heard from Patrick that's really centered on this fact that this was new for her, this was new for him, and it was probably confusing for both of them. He talked about how even though that she shared those intrusive thoughts, she would also be then moments later taking care of the kids, feeding them lunch, taking them to their activities. And so I think that they were both pretty lost about how best to deal with this and how seriously to take it potentially. [00:31:00] Caroline Polisi: Absolutely. I think it was it was confusing for everyone involved. The defense also went on to strengthen this argument that Lindsay was over medicated, mismedicated prior to the events that night. And I did think it was a smart move to address that prosecution's claim that that Lindsay was doctor shopping to get medications. Let's play that now. [00:31:25] Speaker 6: To your knowledge, did Lindsay go to doctors to seek out benzodiazepines or drugs just because she was a drug addict? [00:31:35] Speaker 2: No, no. Lindsay, I think, wanted to she definitely didn't want to take any more benzodiazepines and definitely didn't want to take any more Seroquel. I think that it wasn't really a matter of trying to get off the medication is just trying to get on the right medication. [00:31:50] Caroline Polisi: OK, so he's saying it wasn't just trying to get off the medication. Right. It was trying to get on the right medication. I think that's like a really important point here. [00:32:00] Chanel Call: And I think you're absolutely right, Caroline, this is going to be part of like the bigger, broader narrative that is coming from Lindsay's defense team. Right. That this is a woman who was a mother, someone who was caring, someone who understood that she was suffering and tried to get the help she needed. And the case that he's trying to make, Kevin Rennington, is that this is someone who was ultimately failed by the health care system. [00:32:22] Caroline Polisi: Yeah, exactly. So, Chanel, I mean, what do you anticipate are the key moments in this trial to come? [00:32:29] Chanel Call: Yeah. So I think at the end of the day, Caroline, this isn't a whodunit. Right. We know what happened that night because Lindsay's defense team has agreed with what prosecutors are alleging in terms of who was at fault here. It's not a question of if Lindsay Clancy killed her three children. It's why she did it and whether or not she's going to be held criminally responsible for it. And look, I think what could move the needle here in the coming weeks of this trial is really hearing from medical experts and health care professionals. About what postpartum psychosis really is and whether or not that definition lines up with what she reportedly was going through at the time. The medications, I think, are also going to be a really interesting part of this trial. What was she taking? How much was she taking? When was she taking it? Who was prescribing it? I think as we learn more about that, jurors are going to have more information to eventually make a decision on whether or not her condition and those medications that she was on as a result of it actually played a part in this. [00:33:20] Caroline Polisi: Yeah. Chanel, we're so grateful to have you with us. This is this is this is one of the most intense cases I've covered, and I honestly can't imagine what it must be like to be inside that courtroom. [00:33:31] Chanel Call: So thank you so, so much. Thanks for having me. I mean, I will say reporters have pretty thick skin and pretty tough cookies, but this has been, you know, one of the most difficult things to cover in my 15 year career. You know, when that 911 call was playing, I was just looking around the room to see how other people were processing this moment. And I think that there was a collective feeling where everyone's heart was sinking, you know, and I will note as well that that we actually saw paramedics were called to the court after that 911 call had played to check on a juror who was experiencing some severe anxiety. So certainly I think this trial is going to weigh heavy on a lot of people. [00:34:13] Caroline Polisi: I heard about that. I mean, I mean, again, unimaginable, just unimaginable. So thanks again. Now, we do want to use this opportunity to say that if you or someone, you know, may be experiencing a mental health crisis. Contact the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. Just dial or text 988. And if you're pregnant or have just had a baby, you can dial or text the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline at 1-833-TLC-MAMA. We will be back next week with another episode of Case by Case. Be sure to rate and review and let us know which cases you're following and which cases you'd like us to follow. [00:34:56] Speaker ?: We will be back next week with another episode of Case.