Kouri Richins: Behind the Facade — Full Episode + Post Mortem

[00:00:00] Eric: This case is about a wife and a mother who found herself in perhaps a failing marriage, a business in trouble. What's your first name? It took, some could argue, an easy way out. [00:00:34] Laura: I think she really wanted to improve her life and be free and be rich and have this facade of being the successful person that she wanted to be. [00:00:45] Eric: My name is Eric. [00:00:46] Laura: My name is Laura, and we served as jurors in the Corey Richens trial. [00:00:50] Speaker 3: Please have a seat. [00:00:52] Laura: Corey Richens didn't seem to me like someone with a very strong moral compass. [00:00:58] Speaker 4: Eric Richens was found dead in his home on March 4th, 2022. Eric was married to Corey Richens, and they had three children. [00:01:10] Speaker 5: I'm alone with the address of the emergency. My husband's not breathing. He's cold. I just came in the bed, get our bed, and I turned over, and he's just cold. He's just cold. [00:01:25] Speaker 6: That's what happened today. [00:01:29] Speaker 5: I don't know. [00:01:31] Speaker ?: He was just fine. He was fine. [00:01:34] Speaker 5: I don't know. It just didn't, it didn't really exist. [00:01:39] Speaker 7: The family had been alerted by Eric that if something happened to him, to look at Corey, it was almost like they knew something like this could happen someday. [00:01:50] Speaker 8: This was in the months leading up to his death. Right. He felt that his life could be at risk. [00:01:55] Speaker 7: Right. They suspected Corey would take part in his death before it happened. [00:02:00] Speaker 4: The state alleged that Corey Richens killed her husband, Eric, by giving him a lethal dose of fentanyl. [00:02:06] Speaker 9: A Summit County woman who wrote a children's book about coping with grief following her husband's death, now accused of being the one that actually killed him. [00:02:15] Speaker 10: The book was to honor him, to express to these boys to remember their father. [00:02:20] Speaker 4: She's accused, essentially murdering the person who is the topic of the book. Words of wisdom, do not write books while you're being investigated. [00:02:30] Speaker 10: As we were preparing for trial, Corey was 100% pure goodness and kindness. She's a good, good human being. [00:02:37] Laura: She might have had these good sides to her where she was giving, but she was willing to give that part up. [00:02:45] Speaker 11: Did Corey Richens ever ask you to purchase for her illicit drugs? [00:02:51] Eric: Yes. Based upon the testimony and the evidence we saw against Corey, I came to see her as pretty cold and pretty calculating. [00:03:01] Speaker 10: You have to understand that the jurors did not know her. They didn't know her. [00:03:08] Speaker 4: There was no smoking gun in this case. There was never one thing in this case that was absolutely Corey did it and there's no question. [00:03:17] Laura: She basically sacrificed her husband to get what she wanted. [00:03:25] Speaker 12: My sweet baby boys, and as much as you've been influenced into thinking that dad was murdered, that I took your dad from you, that is completely wrong. It's been an absolute lie. [00:03:38] Speaker 13: Corey did not just kill Eric. She attempted to kill the spirit of everyone who loved him. She lied to his children, she lied to the world, and has shown no remorse while dancing on his grave for profit. [00:04:07] Speaker ?: She lied to her. She lied to her. [00:04:43] Speaker 11: The evidence will prove that Corey Richens murdered Eric for his money and to get a fresh start at life. [00:04:56] Speaker 8: In February of 2026, in a packed courtroom in Summit County, Utah, Chief Prosecutor Brad Bloodworth laid out the state's case against Corey Richens for the murder of Eric Richens, her husband and father of their three sons. It had been nearly four years since Eric died on March 4th, 2022, of a lethal dose of fentanyl, served to him by Corey in a cocktail, say prosecutors. She had spent almost three years in jail awaiting trial. [00:05:30] Speaker 11: More than anything, she wanted his money to perpetuate her facade of privilege, affluence, and success. [00:05:42] Speaker 8: Eric Richens owned a lucrative contracting business, and Corey worked as a real estate agent, buying and flipping houses. She was facing not just murder charges, but also insurance fraud and forgery counts. [00:06:00] Speaker 10: She was absolutely convinced that she would be found not guilty. [00:06:05] Speaker 8: Greg Hall is a friend and former colleague of Corey's. What made her so convinced of that outcome? [00:06:11] Speaker 10: Because she knows that she didn't do it. [00:06:14] Speaker 8: Initially, authorities thought Eric may have died from an accidental drug overdose. But as investigators dug deeper, they concluded that Corey poisoned Eric for financial gain. [00:06:27] Speaker 7: And watch out for Corey, watch out if something happens to me. [00:06:31] Speaker 8: According to Greg Skordis, a spokesperson for Eric's family, Eric had raised concerns about Corey to his family. The night Eric died, were they immediately suspecting that Corey took part in his death? [00:06:45] Speaker 7: They suspected Corey would take part in his death before it happened. And so when it did happen, it was everyone's worst nightmare come true. [00:06:56] Speaker 5: My ears are so breathing. [00:06:58] Speaker 8: Keep cold. As the state filled its case against Corey Richens, her 911 call, saying she found Eric unresponsive in bed, was an integral piece of evidence. [00:07:11] Speaker 5: If you need to put me on speaker, put me on speaker. I'm going to guide you through CPR, okay? [00:07:15] Speaker 8: The prosecution used the recording throughout the trial to call into question whether Corey was even trying to resuscitate Eric. [00:07:23] Speaker 5: Start counting out loud so I can count with you, okay? [00:07:25] Speaker 8: The operator repeatedly asks the phone to be put on speaker so Corey can listen while performing CPR. [00:07:34] Speaker 5: One, two, three, four. Am I on speaker? [00:07:37] Speaker 8: Yes. But a prosecution digital forensic analyst testified that phone receiver sensor activity showed Corey was actually holding the phone to her ear during the call. [00:07:50] Speaker 7: There's a proximity sensor inside the device that activates the receiver. [00:07:54] Laura: The digital download expert could actually see that Corey did not put the phone on speakerphone. She was still holding it up to her ear. That means she wasn't doing compressions, or if she was, she was doing it with one hand. [00:08:13] Speaker 8: The 911 call was impactful for jurors Laura and Eric, who requested we not use their last names. [00:08:20] Eric: Listening to the call, it didn't seem like there was much effort in the compressions themselves. [00:08:27] Speaker 8: The impression these jurors had of her resuscitation attempts didn't match Corey's description of events, which she texted to her friend Chelsea Barney. Prosecutor Bloodworth read the messages to the jury. [00:08:40] Speaker 11: His lifeless body on my bedroom floor. I pumped so damn hard, so hard, screaming at him to come back to life, that I needed him. [00:08:49] Eric: Some of her text messages to a friend, she said she was screaming and beating on his chest, and the evidence did not show that. [00:08:57] Speaker 8: Some of Corey's other actions the day Eric died puzzled the jurors we interviewed, like her behavior on this deputy's body cam footage shown in court. [00:09:06] Laura: It was strange, right after Eric died, Corey was holding her face with her hands. [00:09:12] Eric: It certainly looks like she was trying to hide her face, uh, and her emotion. [00:09:19] Speaker 14: Where are your children now? [00:09:22] Speaker 5: We'll just sleep in that room, too, or awake with their ear to the door. [00:09:27] Speaker 8: And when the jurors compared Corey's behavior in the footage to Eric's sister's, they found the contrast startling. [00:09:35] Eric: Eric's sister, Katie Richards came in, she was hysterical. [00:09:39] Speaker 14: Take a deep breath. Take a deep breath. [00:09:42] Eric: Near hyperventilating. And her first thought was, where are the kids? Are the kids okay? And through that whole video, Corey said, my kids are in that room and one of them is listening, but never did she move to go comfort those kids. [00:09:56] Speaker 8: Eric's sister, Katie, testified about arriving at the house. [00:10:00] Speaker 11: On the morning that Eric died, did Corey Richards say anything about the house that they were living in? [00:10:07] Speaker 15: Yes, she told me she was going to sell it. [00:10:11] Speaker 8: According to Katie, just hours after Eric's death, Corey was talking real estate, how she planned to sell their home and how she needed to close on a house she had just purchased, known as the Midway Mansion. [00:10:25] Speaker 15: I had just lost one of the most important people in my whole entire life. And she was planning on selling the house that he had just been wheeled out of, closing on a multimillion dollar mansion. I could not wrap my head around it. [00:10:48] Speaker 8: Prosecutors also presented evidence of something accessed on Corey's cell phone that morning. These gifts seemingly celebrating coming into money. [00:10:57] Eric: I thought the gifts were really odd. If she was the one that pulled them up, which it certainly seems like that is the case, that's just more evidence of her state of mind at the time. [00:11:10] Speaker 8: It was not clear to the jurors whether the gifts were celebrating Eric's death or celebrating the Midway Mansion purchase. Either way, they found the timing curious. [00:11:21] Laura: It was still inappropriate the day after her husband passed away that she's accessing these. So it was strange. [00:11:30] Speaker 8: Strange behavior aside, the state's case hinged on proving Corey intentionally poisoned Eric, that he did not die of an accidental overdose. The prosecution contends it was Corey who administered the fentanyl, either in a cocktail called a Moscow mule or in a lemon drop shot that she prepared for Eric. Investigators found this note in a kitchen cabinet, which the prosecution says chronicles how Corey killed Eric. [00:12:02] Speaker 11: Notice that here she writes drink in bed. [00:12:04] Speaker 8: And the prosecutor told the jury about something else authorities found unusual. In this incident report, describing what happened that night, Corey immediately writes about having a drink around 9.15 p.m. to celebrate work. [00:12:19] Laura: Her story that night that she wrote started with Eric drinking a drink that she made. Why would her story start then? Why wouldn't it start when she walked in the door and found that he wasn't moving? That was just one of these really subtle things that I thought was really important. [00:12:41] Speaker 8: Also important for jurors was knowing how Corey obtained the fentanyl. For that, prosecutors turned to a witness who became a controversial figure in the case, Corey's housekeeper. [00:12:54] Speaker 11: Did you ask Corey Richens about Eric's death? [00:12:59] Speaker 16: Yes, I did. [00:13:00] Speaker 11: What did you ask? [00:13:01] Speaker 16: I said, please tell me these pills were not for him. [00:13:12] Speaker 11: What man is your name? Carmen Lauber. [00:13:15] Speaker 8: Carmen Lauber was Corey and Eric's housekeeper, and she cleaned homes for Corey's real estate flipping business. Prosecutors say Carmen also did something else. She supplied Corey with the drugs used to kill Eric. [00:13:30] Speaker 11: Did Corey Richens ever ask you to purchase for her illicit drugs? [00:13:36] Speaker 4: Yes. [00:13:37] Speaker 11: How many times? [00:13:39] Speaker 4: Four. In a lot of ways, she is the key witness. [00:13:43] Speaker 8: Sky Lazaro had been Corey Richens' attorney before resigning from the case due to a conflict of interest. [00:13:50] Speaker 4: Carmen really was the only person who could tie Corey to obtaining fentanyl. [00:13:57] Speaker 8: Carmen testified that in the months preceding Eric's death, Corey asked her to get pain medication for a client, which Carmen did. Then, about two weeks before Eric died, Corey made another request for something stronger. Carmen says she reached out to a drug dealer friend and told Corey she could get her fentanyl. [00:14:20] Speaker 17: I had texted Corey back and told her that I had a friend that could get them, but they were fentanyl pills. [00:14:30] Speaker 11: How did Corey Richens respond? [00:14:32] Speaker 17: She said, okay, go ahead and give. [00:14:35] Speaker 8: The state contends Corey mixed that fentanyl into the Moscow mule or lemon drop shot she served Eric. Carmen, though, has an arrest record from drug charges and is not an ideal witness. [00:14:49] Speaker 7: She had a history of drug abuse. And although I think she's overcome that, those are who you deal with in criminal cases. They're not always the shiniest people in the world. [00:14:58] Speaker 8: The jurors we spoke with were able to look past Carmen's history and found her credible. [00:15:04] Eric: I put a lot of weight on Carmen Lauber's testimony. I found it very impactful, very important to the prosecution's case. And her testimony was corroborated with the digital evidence. [00:15:16] Speaker 8: The state's digital forensic expert testified about hundreds of text messages between Corey and Carmen that matched Carmen's timeline of when Corey contacted her for drugs. Because the messages had been deleted, investigators could only retrieve dates and times, but not the messages' content. [00:15:36] Speaker 7: Between the two of them, about 800 text messages. [00:15:40] Speaker 8: The prosecution argued throughout the trial that this was not the first time Corey used drugs to try to kill Eric. Investigators learned that two weeks before his death on Valentine's Day, Eric became ill after Corey served him what they say was a drug-laced breakfast sandwich. [00:16:01] Speaker 11: On Valentine's Day, it was a sandwich. When she murdered him, it was a drink. [00:16:06] Speaker 8: As for a motive, prosecutors say Corey needed money. A forensic accountant testified about her money problems. [00:16:13] Speaker 11: What was the amount of Corey Richen's liabilities? [00:16:18] Speaker 18: Right around $8 million. [00:16:20] Speaker 8: She said Corey was in debt for nearly $8 million from her house-flipping business, some of it from the recent purchase of that Midway mansion. And Eric, between the contracting business, property, and life insurance, was worth a lot. [00:16:37] Speaker 11: On the day that Eric died, his estate was worth over $4 million. [00:16:44] Speaker 8: There was also evidence that Corey took out an additional $100,000 life insurance policy on Eric about a month before he died, and that Eric's signature was forged. [00:16:55] Speaker 7: The question and known signatures were not authored by the same person. [00:16:59] Speaker 8: A forgery, prosecutors say, committed by Corey. [00:17:02] Eric: She used her business address for this policy and made herself the beneficiary. And frankly, even as a layperson, looking at the signatures, Eric did not sign that document. [00:17:17] Speaker 8: And there may have been another motive for murder. According to the state, Corey wanted a new life with this man, Josh Grossman, a handyman she met through her house-flipping business. They had an affair for about two years. [00:17:33] Speaker 7: I don't know how much the family knew about the fact that she had a paramour. I don't even know how much Eric knew about it. That turned out to be a helpful piece of evidence that was discovered during the investigation. [00:17:43] Speaker 8: Josh Grossman testified that after he heard Corey had been arrested for Eric's murder, by which time they had broken up, he reached out to Eric's family. [00:17:53] Speaker 19: I was overwhelmed with guilt, sorrow, over my wrongdoings, you know, infidelity. [00:18:02] Laura: Okay. With respect to Josh Grossman, he seemed like a believable witness. I think we all felt really sorry for him at times that he was crying. [00:18:15] Speaker 8: Josh told investigators about a conversation he had with Corey that now, under the lens of murder, took on new meaning. Josh, who had served with the Army in Iraq, was asked about that conversation. [00:18:30] Speaker 19: She asked if I had ever killed anybody. [00:18:34] Speaker 11: Did she ask a follow-up question? [00:18:36] Speaker 19: Yes. She asked me how it made me feel or something along those lines. [00:18:42] Speaker 8: The jury was also shown text messages between Corey and Josh. I mean, you see those text messages back and forth, very lovey. Life is going to be different, I promise. If I was divorced right now and asked you to marry me, you would. I just want to lay on the couch and cuddle you, watch a murder documentary and snuggle. I mean, you know, I don't know that that gets any closer to the reality of what actually happened in this case. [00:19:10] Speaker 4: Yeah, in hindsight, I don't think those were probably well thought out. These coming in the way they did, the timing of them, I think certainly did not help Corey. [00:19:20] Speaker 11: Can I get Exhibit 3-1, please? [00:19:23] Speaker 8: Something else that did not help Corey was this reservation she booked for a romantic getaway with Josh. [00:19:30] Speaker 11: And did you know about a trip planned to the secret St. Martin's Resort? Yes. [00:19:36] Speaker 8: Corey sent Josh the reservation she made before Eric died, with the trip planned for April, a month after Eric's death. [00:19:45] Laura: The reservation for the trip was damaging to Corey. To me, that made it look like she had been planning something for a while. And at some point soon, Eric would be out of the picture. [00:19:57] Speaker 8: As the investigation proceeded, Corey said the prosecution was worried about being caught. It showed web searches Corey made after Eric's death, including luxury prisons for the rich in America. How long does life insurance companies take to pay? If someone is poisoned, what does it go down on the death certificate as? [00:20:22] Eric: Corey's internet searches, questions that were being searched, led me to believe she had a guilty mind. [00:20:30] Speaker 4: These searches were done after she was handed a search warrant when they searched the home. It kind of takes the sting out of them. I think it's somewhat understandable. This is after the fact. This is after and well after, in fact. [00:20:45] Speaker 8: She was looking for information based on what she found out after Eric died. It was one of the points that Corey's own defense team made as it tried to poke holes in the entire prosecution's case. [00:20:56] Speaker 18: You know what you're never going to hear is how that fentanyl got inside of him, because there is zero evidence of that. [00:21:08] Speaker 8: Just outside of Salt Lake City, home to famed ski resorts, including Park City, is the nearly 10 acre estate that Corey Richens was planning on flipping. It looks ginormous. It's massive. Sky Lazaro told us Corey hoped to walk away with nearly $10 million in profit. [00:21:38] Speaker 4: I think this was kind of her dream when she got into this idea of flipping houses, was to be able to do properties like this. [00:21:48] Speaker 8: And it was that estate, said Corey Richens' defense attorney, Catherine Nestor, in her opening statement, the couple were toasting the night Eric died. [00:21:59] Speaker 18: Eric and Corey Richens were celebrating. They were celebrating because Corey was about to close on the biggest real estate deal that her company had ever done. They had a lot to celebrate. They also had a wonderful family. [00:22:17] Speaker 8: Nestor showed jurors a family photo of Eric and Corey with their three sons, seemingly happy, and spoke about the love they shared for their boys. [00:22:27] Speaker 18: And what's more important is that the boys adored their father, and Corey knew that about her sons and about her family. [00:22:34] Speaker 8: Nestor asked jurors to consider why Corey would poison Eric, knowing the impact it would have on their three sons. [00:22:40] Speaker 18: Now, after you've listened to all the evidence in this case, you're going to have to decide if Corey Richens intentionally and knowingly poisoned the father of her kids, knowing that she was going to cause those little boys to feel pain every day for the rest of their life, for the loss of their father. [00:23:02] Speaker 8: Corey's friend, Greg Hall, says Corey would never do that. [00:23:06] Speaker 10: She was loving. She was kind. She was giving. A wonderful mother. [00:23:12] Speaker 8: Eric suffered from pain a lot. Nestor told jurors Eric Richens lived with chronic pain. He suffered from knee and back pain related to his work. He did hard work. And used drugs recreationally, often taking marijuana gummies. These are all gummies that the police found in Eric's things. Nestor said Eric also used pain medication. [00:23:37] Speaker 18: You're also going to hear that there was an empty pill bottle right next to him. [00:23:42] Speaker 8: The label on that pill bottle was for the painkiller hydrocodone, and it had expired in 2020. Nestor suggested it was Eric who may have come into contact with fentanyl. [00:23:53] Speaker 18: You're going to hear that just a few weeks before Eric died, guess where he was? Mexico. Guess where the fentanyl comes into this country from? Mexico. [00:24:05] Speaker 8: One by one. [00:24:07] Speaker 3: We'll proceed with cross-examination of Ms. Richenspenson. [00:24:11] Speaker 8: The defense challenged the state's witnesses, beginning with Eric's sister, Katie, and her account of Corey's behavior the night Eric died. [00:24:20] Speaker 18: And you also said that she just stood there and did not comfort you in any way? Not that I recall. Okay. Your Honor, we'd like to play a clip. This is state's exhibit 1-4. Okay. So that's Corey. Freeze it right there. And that's her squatting down to comfort you while you're on the ground. And that's y'all hugging, right? Correct. So your memory about that was clearly wrong. [00:24:46] Speaker 15: To be fair, it was four years ago. [00:24:48] Speaker 18: Okay. [00:24:50] Speaker 8: When it came to the state's key witness, Carmen Lauber. Good afternoon, Ms. Lauber. [00:24:54] Speaker 16: Good afternoon. [00:24:54] Speaker 8: The defense pointed out that she made a deal with police in order to stay out of prison. Defense attorney Wendy Lewis played a portion of one of Carmen's interviews with investigators. [00:25:06] Speaker 14: They're looking to pull your drug court deal and ask for seven years on your two-firsts. The only exception to that and the only thing that they're willing to kind of help you out with is if you can help us out with this. [00:25:23] Speaker 3: And by so, he means, like, give us the details that will ensure Corey gets convicted of murder. [00:25:31] Speaker 20: So that's what they said to you? [00:25:33] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:25:33] Speaker 20: You may be getting seven years in prison on your state case. [00:25:38] Speaker ?: Correct. [00:25:39] Speaker 20: But if you help him out, that's not going to happen. [00:25:43] Speaker ?: Correct. [00:25:44] Speaker 4: The investigators keep pushing on her. We need more. That's not enough. And finally, in the last interview, they basically just spell it out. [00:25:51] Speaker 17: I love Eric. It was done intentionally. He did not deserve it. [00:25:56] Speaker 14: We believe you, and that's why we're here working on what your get-out-of-jail-free card looks like. [00:26:00] Speaker 4: You know, it's, this is your one get-out-of-jail-free card. You have to basically say it's fentanyl. [00:26:07] Speaker 20: And you are willing to do whatever it takes to save yourself from getting kicked out of drug court and going to prison, correct? [00:26:14] Speaker 16: I'm willing to go forward with the truth, yes. [00:26:16] Laura: I think the defense was really hammering her. And I don't think it went over that well. [00:26:23] Speaker 16: She said, okay, go ahead and get the fentanyl. That's your testimony today? When I told her what I had, that's what she said, yes. [00:26:32] Speaker 8: Even if Carmen bought fentanyl for Corey, the defense said there was no proof that Corey used the drug to poison her husband. Catherine Nestor told the jury the cups Corey served the drinks in were never tested that night. [00:26:47] Speaker 18: And his nanny ended up putting them in the dishwasher the next morning. [00:26:49] Eric: I think the most powerful point the defense made is that we don't know exactly how the fentanyl got into Eric Richen's stomach. [00:27:00] Speaker 4: When you have to prove murder, you have to prove that she's the one that administered the fentanyl to him. [00:27:08] Speaker 8: The defense pushed back on the state's claim that Corey had tried to poison Eric weeks earlier with that Valentine's Day sandwich. Corey's friend, Ali Staking, said the couple downplayed that episode as Eric having an allergic reaction. [00:27:23] Speaker 12: He took a bite of the sandwich and got an allergic reaction and had to shoot himself in everything. [00:27:29] Speaker 20: Was everyone laughing? Yes, we were all laughing and we jokingly said, don't eat what Corey feeds you. Okay. And did Eric appear upset about what had happened prior with the sandwich? No. [00:27:40] Speaker 8: And as for the financial motive that Corey was broke, Sky Lazaro says Corey Richen's multi-million dollar debt was typical in the house flipping business. [00:27:51] Speaker 4: That's what they do for a living is they invest in homes to flip. So you're saying it's part of the business. [00:27:56] Speaker 8: Right. So you get in debt and then you flip the house, you sell it, and then you make your money back. Absolutely. And that $100,000 life insurance policy the state claimed wasn't signed by Eric? Nestor said there is an innocent explanation. [00:28:11] Speaker 18: I'm telling you right now, wives everywhere sign their husband's names on a lot of things. You've got to find that she did it without his knowledge and I don't know how they're going to prove that. [00:28:21] Speaker 8: The defense also downplayed Corey's affair with Josh Grossman, who testified they never went on that romantic getaway Corey had booked for them. Then Corey ended the relationship, correct? [00:28:33] Eric: Right. It was a little bit difficult to understand what the situation was with Josh Grossman because she did seem to drop him pretty quickly. [00:28:45] Speaker 8: Do you think that Josh Grossman's relationship with Corey had anything to do with Eric's death? [00:28:50] Speaker 10: No. If that were the case, after Eric passed away, that relationship would have continued, not been tapered off. It doesn't make any logical sense. [00:29:01] Speaker 8: On March 12, 2026, after three weeks and 40 witnesses from the state... [00:29:07] Speaker 11: Your Honor, the state rests its case. [00:29:10] Speaker 8: The jurors say they were expecting to see defense evidence and hear from their witnesses. Okay, now we can hear the rest of the story. [00:29:18] Laura: But what happened next... [00:29:19] Speaker 3: Who's a defense counsel's first witness? [00:29:23] Laura: ...caught everyone off guard. My mouth just dropped open. I was just like, what? I was so shocked. And I was actually really disappointed. [00:29:32] Speaker 3: State's counsel and defense counsel are present. Ms. Richens is present. [00:29:48] Speaker 8: 13 days into the trial, Judge Richard Moraszek asked Corey Richens' defense team about their first witness. [00:29:57] Eric: I was totally prepared for however many days or weeks of vigorous defense. [00:30:03] Speaker 3: Who's a defense counsel's first witness? Who's a defense counsel's first witness? [00:30:10] Speaker 20: Can we have just a minute? [00:30:14] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:30:15] Speaker 8: We have... We have a couple of options. [00:30:18] Speaker 3: Understood. [00:30:18] Speaker 8: But the option defense attorneys Wendy Lewis and Catherine Nestor chose was one these jurors were not expecting. [00:30:26] Speaker 20: You know, actually, at this time, the defense intends to arrest you. [00:30:29] Eric: I was like, "Seriously? Now we've seen just about everything in this trial." [00:30:36] Laura: I was disappointed because I'm like, you know, I felt like there was more to the story, and they denied us access to that. [00:30:45] Speaker 3: I just want to make sure you've consulted with your client about this. [00:30:52] Speaker 20: Absolutely. [00:30:53] Speaker 3: Ms. Richens may ask you two direct questions. Yes. Do you understand that you have the right to testify at trial? [00:31:02] Speaker 12: Yes, I do. [00:31:03] Speaker 3: Are you following your attorney's advice and waiving your right to testify at trial? [00:31:08] Speaker 12: Yes, I am. [00:31:09] Speaker 3: I accept your waiver. I find it's knowing and voluntary. [00:31:14] Speaker 8: Laura says she at least expected the defense to present testimony about Eric's alleged drug use and what role, if any, it played in his death. [00:31:24] Laura: They were just hinting ever so slightly at these things without backing it up. So I was really hoping for some testimony. If that's really true, are you just trying to confuse everything? [00:31:38] Speaker 8: Greg Skortis, who happens to be an attorney himself, says perhaps the defense saw no need to call witnesses because it felt there was enough reasonable doubt. [00:31:48] Speaker 7: If you think you're winning after the prosecution puts on its case, then there's no reason to put on a case because you could only hurt yourself. So why, why even risk putting on a witness that could hurt you? [00:32:00] Speaker 8: Laura says throughout the trial, she would sometimes look over at the defense table. [00:32:05] Laura: There was really no vibe coming from her. Like I couldn't sense whether she was upset or angry or sad. She had a very flat effect. [00:32:15] Speaker 8: Was that part of it, the likability of Corey Richens at that point? Do you think they saw a woman who was having an affair, who was in debt? [00:32:24] Speaker 4: I think that's how it certainly could be taken. There never was a real opportunity to humanize her, to make her likable, to make her seem like a person who wouldn't do that. [00:32:35] Speaker 3: Mr. Bloodworth, would you like to proceed? [00:32:37] Speaker 8: In its closing, the prosecution portrayed Corey Richens as a ruthless social climber chasing a life beyond what she had at her family's expense. [00:32:49] Speaker 11: Behind the facade, however, Corey Richens was incompetent. "Her business was imploding. All the while, Corey Richens was more interested in spending time with Josh Grossman than Eric." "But she did not have the money to leave Eric or the money to salvage her business. She is a risk taker. There was a way forward. Eric had to die." [00:33:23] Speaker 8: The defense used its closing argument to lay out its entire case. [00:33:29] Speaker 20: They want you to look at a woman in the worst moment of her life. Citing several reasons why there was reasonable doubt. The investigation in this matter was nothing but sloppy. It was driven by bias. [00:33:46] Speaker 8: Wendy Lewis told jurors the investigators developed tunnel vision early on, driven by Eric's family's belief that Corey was guilty. [00:33:55] Speaker 20: Everything about this investigation was led by the Richens family. [00:34:01] Laura: It did give me pause whether there was this bias in the entire investigation that started with the Richens family. [00:34:08] Speaker 8: What else do we find on that first day that Eric died? Lewis pointed to that trip Eric took to Mexico shortly before his death and that empty pill bottle on his nightstand. The hydrocodone bottle. [00:34:23] Speaker 20: What was kept in that bottle? What might be the best way to bring illegal pills back from Mexico? But then a prescription bottle? So what's another explanation? What could have happened? Maybe he thought it was something else and he accidentally got fentanyl. Maybe had they tested that bottle, we would know. But they didn't. She urged the jurors to stand with Corey Richens. Corey Richens did not kill Eric Richens. The state did not prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt. And you have the courage, have the courage to tell them this and find Corey Richens not guilty. [00:35:01] Speaker 8: How was Corey feeling? Did she ever feel like this may not go her way? [00:35:07] Speaker 10: No, absolutely not, honestly, not at all. She was upbeat, hopeful, enthused. She was absolutely convinced that she would be found not guilty. [00:35:20] Speaker 8: After sitting through the three-week trial, jurors Eric and Laura had no way of knowing what other jurors were thinking nor how long reaching a verdict could take. I was thinking this is gonna be a very long week. But in the end, deliberations would only last about three hours. Laura, one of the two women on the eight-person jury, was selected as four-person. [00:36:00] Laura: When we got back there, I think everyone was bursting. I felt like I was bursting at the seams. [00:36:07] Speaker 8: For the jurors, Corey's money trouble proved to be a motive for Eric's murder. [00:36:12] Eric: She was in such a position that she had to take drastic action to dig out of the financial hole that she was in. I shared that I thought the evidence was devastating against Corey and that she was guilty. I think that opened the door to other people to share exactly where they stood. [00:36:34] Speaker 8: And when the decision was made to vote, the rest of the jury agreed not just that Corey murdered Eric, but that she previously attempted to kill him with that poison-laced Valentine's Day sandwich and that she committed two counts of insurance fraud and forgery. [00:36:53] Speaker 3: Ms. Richens, please stand. [00:36:57] Speaker 8: On March 16, 2026, Judge Richard Morazic read the verdict. [00:37:03] Speaker 3: Count one, aggravated murder. We, the jury, unanimously find that the defendant, Corey Richens, is guilty of aggravated murder. [00:37:14] Speaker 8: Corey Richens was stunned as she learned she was found guilty of all five counts related to Eric's death, says her friend Greg Hall. [00:37:24] Speaker 10: Totally unexpected. She was absolutely crushed and heartbroken. [00:37:29] Speaker 8: Corey Richens declined our request for an interview. [00:37:33] Speaker 3: State of Utah versus Corey Richens. [00:37:40] Speaker 8: Two months later, on what would have been Eric Richens' 44th birthday, Corey Richens, now wearing a prison uniform, was back in court to receive her sentence. Eric's family gave heartfelt statements. His sister Amy emphasized the impact his loss has had on his three sons. [00:38:01] Speaker 13: This crime didn't just happen once. It happens every single morning when those boys wake up and realize their father is still gone. [00:38:10] Speaker 8: The boys were 5, 7, and 9 when their world was shattered. Today, they are 9, 11, and 13. And through written statements read by each of their counselors, for the first time, the world got to hear from them. The first statement read aloud was written by the youngest, Weston. [00:38:30] Speaker 21: "When someone talks about Corey, it makes me feel hateful and ashamed. She took away my dad. It's made me have a hard time trusting people." [00:38:39] Speaker 8: The middle child, Ashton, called Corey greedy and said she did not properly care for him and his brothers. When we got hurt, you didn't even care. He accused her of harming the family pets. [00:38:51] Speaker 22: You wouldn't let me put my kitten in the garage for safety at night and we found it eaten by raccoons the next day. You wouldn't let us turn on and use the heater lamp for the chickens and bunnies and they froze to death. [00:39:07] Speaker 8: Carter, the oldest, said Corey was often drunk and would lock him in his room. [00:39:13] Speaker 23: This happened pretty much daily. I feel angry that she locked me in my room. I miss my dad, but I do not miss how my life used to be. I don't miss Corey. I will tell you that. [00:39:22] Speaker 8: All three boys asked the judge to give their mother, whom they only referred to as Corey, the harshest possible sentence. What she did is very sick. When it was their turn, Corey's friends and family pleaded for leniency. Her brother, Ronnie. [00:39:40] Speaker 6: The injustice that's occurred here in this courtroom, it'll be righted in time. Until then, little sister, just I'm right by your side and I'll always be right here for you. I love you. [00:39:52] Speaker 8: Then Corey Richens was allowed to speak. She did not testify at trial, but now she approached the podium and used her time to address her kids. I will use any opportunity I can to get a message to you. She says she has been cut off from them for the past two years. [00:40:10] Speaker 12: As much as you've been influenced into thinking that dad was murdered, that I took your dad from you, that is completely wrong and an absolute lie. And just because someone may not be perfect, that's a far reach for them to be capable of murder. [00:40:27] Speaker 8: Judge Morazic had two options when considering Corey Richens' sentence. Either 25 years to life with the possibility of parole or life in prison without parole. And he made it known he carefully considered each. [00:40:43] Speaker 3: The court's duty is to make a decision, a weighty, long-lasting decision based on the best information available today. Accordingly, Ms. Richens, the court hereby sentences you to life without parole. [00:41:08] Speaker 8: For Eric's family, it was the end to a years-long nightmare. Greg Skortis, the family spokesperson, says the true heartbreak is for the kids, who are now living with Eric's sister, Katie. [00:41:21] Speaker 7: I can't think of anything worse as a child to lose your father, except to know that it was because of your mother. [00:41:33] Speaker ?: I mean, think about that. [00:41:35] Speaker 7: I mean, think about that. [00:42:03] Speaker 12: My sweet baby boys, I know that today you don't want to speak to me, have a relationship with me, or you may think you hate me, and that's okay. I will never be angry at you for your feelings. [00:42:31] Speaker 24: That was Corey Richens, addressing her children on May 13th at a sentencing hearing. It was the first time any of us heard from Richens since the Utah mother of three was found guilty of aggravated murder in her husband, Eric Richens' 2022 fentanyl overdose death. She was also found guilty of four other charges, including attempted aggravated murder, two counts of insurance fraud, and forgery. [00:42:58] Speaker 12: And now I will use any opportunity I can to get a message to you. Even if that means sharing it publicly to the world, fully restrained, in my jail clothes, in one of the most horrible situations possible. [00:43:12] Speaker 24: She was sentenced to life in prison without parole. Welcome to the season finale of Postmortem. I'm your host, 48 Hours Correspondent, Anne-Marie Green. And joining me today is 48 Hours Correspondent, Natalie Morales, to discuss the dramatic conclusion of a case that has certainly gripped the nation. Natalie, welcome. [00:43:32] Speaker 8: Thank you, Anne-Marie, for having me again. And boy, is this explosive, this sentencing hearing. We not only heard statements from Corey for the first time, but also from Eric's sisters, also from Eric and Corey's children in a statement, which you'll hear as read by their counselors. Now, this is a case, as you know, it's been getting a lot of media attention. We've reported on it extensively as well. We're going to break it all down for you today. [00:44:01] Speaker 24: All right. So we are going to get into this. But first, a reminder, as usual, everyone, if you haven't watched or listened to this episode, it is called Corey Richens Behind the Facade. Go check it out now and then come on back for this conversation. And so as you sort of point out, Natalie, a lot of people had been following this case, but it has gone on for quite a while. So why don't you give us a bit of a recap? [00:44:26] Speaker 8: Well, let's go back to March of 2022. And, you know, Corey Richens at the time was 31 years old. Eric, 39 years old. They seem to have it all by outward appearances. They seem to be in a good marriage. They had three young sons. But it was in the early morning hours of March 4th, 2022, that Corey called 911. And she called and told the first responders that she had fallen asleep with one of the kids when she put him to bed. And then when she woke up, she went back to her bedroom and she found Eric cold to the touch and not breathing. So when the first responders arrived, they tried to save Eric, but it was already too late. Now, initially, authorities thought that Eric may have died from an accidental drug overdose. But as investigators dug deeper, they suspected that Corey poisoned Eric for financial gain. [00:45:19] Speaker 24: So I think part of the reason why this case caught so many people's attention is because Richens notoriously published a children's book about grief. This is following her husband's death before being charged with murder, along with the insurance fraud charges and the forgery charges. But then in February of 2026, nearly four years after Eric's death, the trial finally begins in Utah in a courthouse there. What was the prosecution's case? [00:45:53] Speaker 8: The prosecution alleged that Corey poisoned Eric with fentanyl that was served to him either in a Moscow mule cocktail or a lemon drop shot after apparently previously attempting to poison him via a breakfast sandwich. This was on Valentine's Day, which was two weeks earlier. The prosecution painted Corey as a killer who was set on taking her husband's money because she was deeply in debt with her house flipping business. And they pointed to the evidence that she was also the beneficiary of multiple life insurance policies on her husband and forged a policy as well. Now, the prosecution said that Eric Richens was considering divorcing his wife when he was killed and that they had argued over this purchase of this multimillion dollar mansion that she was trying to flip for her real estate business. The prosecution also said that Corey was having an affair and her former paramour Robert Josh. I think he goes by Josh more commonly Grossman. He actually testified to their relationship in the affair that they had during the trial. And the prosecution presented evidence that about three months before Eric's death, Corey had even gone so far as to book a Caribbean vacation for herself and for Grossman. Although it turns out they never ended up going on the trip because they broke up apparently after Eric died. Huh. [00:47:19] Speaker 24: Okay. So then a lot of motive there. What about the defense? What did the defense argue? [00:47:24] Speaker 8: So the defense said Eric was dependent on drugs to deal with his chronic pain and he had back issues apparently. And they maintained that he most likely died from an accidental overdose. Now, Corey's attorney said that Eric might have actually gotten the fentanyl himself when he had traveled to Mexico just a few weeks before he died. The defense also implied that he might have taken a marijuana gummy that he didn't know was laced with fentanyl. And it was really interesting and I think kind of shocking to the jurors and you're going to hear from them in just a little bit. The defense made the decision not to call any witnesses. And Corey did not testify during the trial. Why did the defense think that this was the best approach? Many defense attorneys would advise their clients against testifying on their own behalf because it just opens themselves up to then being cross examined and harshly generally cross examined by the prosecution. And, you know, in fact, I asked Skye Lazaro, who was Corey's original defense attorney about that. She made the point that if the defense also had called witnesses, the state then would have the opportunity to rebut the witnesses. And it's not the defense that has the burden of proof here. It is the prosecution. And Skye pointed out that the defense likely thought they were in a strong position. In fact, Greg Hall, who is Corey's really good friend and has been her supporter through all of this. He was there during a lot of the trial. Greg said that when the case wrapped that the defense felt and Corey in particular felt really strong about their position. They felt like they were winning. [00:49:12] Speaker 24: Well, I mean, their their senses were off because the jury deliberated for about three hours before returning the verdict. Right. They found her guilty on all five counts, including aggravated murder, attempted murder and two counts of insurance fraud and forgery. One of the things that is new in this episode is 48 hours actually interviewed two of the jurors from the trial, Laura and Eric, and they requested that we only use their first names. But they gave us some insight into, you know, what the jury was considering, how they deliberated. What did they have to say? [00:49:49] Speaker 8: They both said, Eric and Laura, that the minute the trial ended and they walked back into the deliberation room, they felt completely convinced of Corey's guilt, but they didn't know how the others felt yet. And Laura was the foreperson on the case, but she said she could just see that everybody was bursting at the seams to talk. They share what they thought about the witnesses, the strengths, the weaknesses. But when they did take that vote, Laura said it was quick. I mean, deliberating for just three hours, it was pretty short, especially when you consider this is a murder charge and all these other charges as well. [00:50:29] Speaker 24: What evidence was the most convincing for them? [00:50:32] Speaker 8: So the juror, Eric, felt there were some inconsistencies with Corey's story and with what was actually presented as evidence. They pointed to her behavior right in the aftermath after discovering her husband was cold to the touch. They first talk about that 911 call as well as the video that came from the responding officers body cam. And they said it didn't seem like Corey was trying very hard to resuscitate him. Now, you can contrast that with these text messages that Corey exchanged with a friend where Corey said that she was screaming. She was beating on Eric's chest, trying to get him to come back to life. They were also looking on the body cam footage of the responding officers to see how Corey was acting in those moments. And Corey is hiding her face a couple of times behind her hands like you don't see tears. Laura, the juror said it's difficult to judge how someone grieves or how somebody acts in a traumatic situation. But again, what was most impactful to Laura was the time that it took for Corey apparently to start the CPR. So the prosecution in its closing arguments actually had a stopwatch to show that it was approximately six minutes between when the 911 operator told Corey to start and when it appears that Corey on the other side of that call actually says she started. And the most convincing piece of that evidence came from the digital download expert who was able to analyze the phone data and determined that Corey did not put her phone on speaker phone, that she was still holding it up to her ear when she said she was doing CPR, which again should be done with both hands, suggesting she wasn't actually doing it or she was doing it one handed. So not really giving it the full effort. And beyond that, you know, Corey's money trouble really was the biggest motivating factor that they saw that was the main motive that that convinced them that Corey was responsible for Eric's murder. [00:52:44] Speaker 24: So then two months after her conviction on what would have been Eric's 44th birthday, Corey Richards is back in court for sentencing. She's now convicted. She's in shackles. She's wearing a prison uniform. This sentencing hearing lasts nearly five hours. The judge allowed a lot of statements into the record, including Corey's three children who are still quite young, 9, 11 and 13. They have prepared written statements that are read by counselors. Right. [00:53:23] Speaker 8: And again, this is the first time that we're hearing from these three boys. The first time that they're expressing their feelings publicly. I want to play a few portions from that court hearing. Now, the first statement was written by the youngest of the boys, Weston. His counselor read his statement. [00:53:42] Speaker 21: I feel a lot better about myself now than I did with Corey. I can't ever see my dad again. I want her to go to prison forever. If she got out, I would be so scared, really mad, and I wouldn't want to go with her anywhere. [00:53:59] Speaker 8: I mean, it is heartbreaking. All of the three boys expressed feeling safer with Corey being locked up. The oldest explicitly asked the judge to give her that life sentence. So it gives you a sense of, you know, what has been lost in this relationship with her children. [00:54:20] Speaker 24: So Ashton is Corey Richens' middle child who accused Corey of not caring for him or his brothers, but he also accuses Corey of harming the pets. He referred to his brothers in the statement just by their initials. Let's listen to some portions of his statement read out loud by his counselor. [00:54:40] Speaker 22: You took away my dad for no reason other than greed. And you only cared about yourself and your stupid boyfriends. You were not caring and watching over me and my brothers. I had to be a parent to W. C and I would walk him to the bus stop, feed him and watch him. You wouldn't let our dog outside and then the dog would pee inside. You created this problem. Then you would smack my dog on the head as hard as you could. You wouldn't let me put my kitten in the garage for safety at night. And we found it eaten by raccoons the next day. You wouldn't let us turn on and use the heater lamp for the kid chickens and bunnies. And they froze to death. [00:55:26] Speaker 24: This is kind of all new information, right? This wasn't this was this sort of stuff brought up at the trial. Nothing. [00:55:33] Speaker 8: Nothing of this was brought up at the trial. What came into question was how she was as a wife, not as how she was as a mother. [00:55:43] Speaker 24: These two children would have been quite young at the time when they were living with her. Right. Carter is the eldest son. And Carter says that Corey was often drunk, that that she would lock him in his room. Here's another counselor reading his statement. [00:56:01] Speaker 23: I felt like I had to take care of my siblings. Ash mostly took care of me, though, because I was locked in my room. Ash would bring me food. Corey would lock me up if I told her she was drunk. This happened pretty much daily. I feel angry that she locked me in my room. [00:56:18] Speaker 8: We should point out that about these statements. Yeah, they're not calling her mom. They're calling her Corey. But we don't know if prompts were given to the children to get those kinds of statements or what kinds of questions they were even asked by their counselors. [00:56:34] Speaker 24: The court also heard from Katie. That is Eric's sister. I want to play some of that sound. [00:56:41] Speaker 15: There is no question that this case is famous and that Corey is now famous. But what Corey never mentions in talking about her fame and notoriety are the reasons why this case is now famous. It is famous for how appalling and sickening it is. It is famous because a mother meticulously planned to kill her husband, killed him while their children were sleeping in the next room, and then had the audacity to hold herself out as the author of a children's book about grief and loss. It is famous because she spent time Googling luxury prisons for the rich in America. It is famous because from her jail cell, she scripted a bunch of phony testimony so that her brother could perpetrate a fraud on the court. No love lost there, right? [00:57:30] Speaker 24: Absolutely not. I mean, she's not just angry about the loss of her brother, but she clearly is disgusted by Corey Richens and her character, the type of character she thinks she is. Eric has another sister. Her name is Amy. She also spoke. [00:57:47] Speaker 13: I didn't just lose my brother. I lost my sister-in-law. I lost someone I considered my friend. We had good times together. That loss is so complicated now, Your Honor. Because it forces you to grieve someone who is still alive while facing the horror of what they have done. It is grief that doesn't resolve. It just sits there heavy every day. This crime has fractured our family in ways outsiders cannot understand. Corey did not just kill Eric. She attempted to kill the spirit of everyone who loved him. She lied to his children. She lied to the world and has shown no remorse while dancing on his grave for profit. [00:58:40] Speaker 8: Amy, I think, is a little more retrospective in looking back on the relationship that she had with Corey and talking about that loss. Interesting to hear her say, I didn't just lose my brother, I lost my sister-in-law. I lost someone I considered my friend. [00:58:57] Speaker 24: There were other people who spoke on behalf of Corey, like her friend, Greg, who described her as a loving mother who always went out of her way to help other people who were in need. And then her brother Ronnie said this, and as Ronnie was speaking, Corey was crying. [00:59:13] Speaker 6: We don't, with 100% certainty, know what happened, Eric. No one does. But we do know, with 100% certainty, that it wasn't caused by you. We know that. We just know it. The prosecution knows it. And everyone watching this trial knows it. They could not prove their theory. Just the opposite. And yet here we are. For some reason, unbeknownst to us, really bad things happen to really good people, Corey. And you were just really too good of a person, I guess. [00:59:39] Speaker 8: Very stark contrast to the other statements that we heard. Yeah. [00:59:44] Speaker 24: Yeah. I mean, one side paints her as just so heartless and so evil and so greedy. And here you have, you know, the other side is like, no, she was an incredible mother and an incredible friend and an incredible sibling. Right. The too good of a person. [01:00:00] Speaker 8: You know, we did speak with Ronnie when we first reported on this case on 48 Hours. And he clearly believes in her innocence. And the same goes for Greg Hall, who I interviewed once again for this most recent hour. And they all feel that the jury missed the opportunity to get to know her. [01:00:21] Speaker 24: And, you know, I mentioned that Corey had been crying when she was listening to her one brother there. But she had a lot of facial expressions during the sentencing hearing. She looked surprised. She looked incredulous. She wasn't stone faced. Let's put it that way. [01:00:34] Speaker 8: No, certainly not. I mean, the one thing that you could say about Corey, she was very expressive. She at one point appeared to be smirking. She rolled her eyes. It seemed when Katie was speaking, Eric's sister. People look at that and they will make judgments based on that. Of course, she's already been judged by the jury. They've already found her guilty. But now it's her sentencing hearing. [01:00:58] Speaker 24: And then, of course, we heard from Corey Richens herself. And she spoke for about 30 minutes in a statement that was sort of a letter for her sons. She expressed, you know, regret for some of her behavior. But notably, she maintained her innocence, even apologizing to her sons for how the case unfolded. I'm going to play a clip of that. [01:01:22] Speaker 12: I'm sorry that eight people from a jury who have never met you or me or our family had the right to determine our future. And they did that in less than three hours. In a perfect world, there might be justice. But in a perfect world, nothing ever goes wrong. Tragedies don't happen. Some think of verdict or the sentencing will be the answer that they seek or that they need, but it won't. It will only give them something else to think about for a while. It may help to disperse some of their hurt or their resentment, but it won't relieve it. This grief will outlive us all. [01:02:28] Speaker 8: What's so interesting of, you know, what she said there, in my opinion, is she says, I'm so sorry for the jury's decision. I'm so sorry the jury found me guilty. She said that her sons have the right to be angry, of course, sad and confused. And that quote, one day when this is all over, we can sit down and talk about all of this and sort it all out. And she ended by saying she will continue to call her boys every day, even if her calls are blocked and that she loves them forever. Because, you know, Corey has not had any real contact with the boys in all of these years since she was, you know, awaiting trial. [01:03:09] Speaker 24: So the judge is taking all of this in, and the judge sort of openly debates whether or not to sentence Corey Richards to 25 years to life or life without parole. He weighs the impact of the sentence on her three sons and really expresses a desire that everyone impacted by Eric's death find their way to a state of peace. Ultimately, the judge sentences Corey Richards to life without the possibility of parole. Natalie, is this the last we will hear from Corey Richards? [01:03:44] Speaker 8: Probably not. According to her team, Corey plans to appeal the verdict. So this is going to keep going, you know, but for the boys, I think, and for Eric's family, they feel that it's over. And they want it to be done with. [01:04:03] Speaker 24: Mm hmm. And I mean, do we have any idea how her sons are doing today? [01:04:07] Speaker 8: Well, we know that they're living with with Katie. That's Eric's sister and her husband, Clint. They've really tried to keep them away from all of this attention. You know, now they've lost both parents and extended family as well. So the ripple effects of something like this will continue. And and unfortunately, you know, it's the children who really pay the greatest price. [01:04:36] Speaker 24: Absolutely. Well, Natalie, thank you so much for joining me today for postmortem. Good to talk about this with you again, Anne Marie. If you like this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Bye. [01:04:50] Speaker ?: Bye.