Lindsay Clancy Murder Trial Deep Dive - Postpartum Psychosis or Premeditated Murder?

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: well well well everybody hello welcome to another episode of pop apologists if you're tuning in via video you might be noticing the fact that we are together but also separate we are back to our roots fully remote um but we're fully remote in a very special way because we finally have home studios which is so exciting guys after six long years we've graduated from bed to armchair to table it's just it's been a long road but we've made it so thank you for being here this whole time my favorite was when we chatted with sophia franklin and we were like yeah we decided you know it's time we need to get like professional cameras um this was a couple years ago and she was like oh yeah totally like how long you been podcasting for like five years she's like yeah it's time it's time girls anyway this has been a long time coming and it feels so good but without further ado i feel like there's probably a lot of people that are here just for the lindsey clancy case deep dive and they never heard of us they definitely don't care about the nuances of our studio setup so we should probably proceed to the matter at hand yeah let's proceed because it's certainly going to be a tone shift um this case is everywhere right now there's a few things going on in the celebrity sphere but i just feel like the lindsey clancy case is actually what everyone is talking about i mean i have a wedding group chat this wedding i just went to the whole group chat is now of the guests who went to the wedding are debating this case really yeah this case is everywhere and a lot of us cannot stop thinking about it so i think we should just get right into it and lay things out for people listening yeah and before we do that let's just do a quick content warning this episode everyone discusses the deaths of three young children and includes descriptions of violence attempted suicide and severe mental illness so listener caution is advised okay so let's begin with what actually happened and get into the crime so on the evening of january 24th 2023 in the quiet coastal town of duxbury massachusetts lindsey clancy a 32 year old former labor and delivery nurse strangled her three young children with exercise resistance bands in the basement of the family's home on summer street she then went upstairs cut herself and jumped from a second story window in an attempt to end her own life the fall and the injuries she sustained left her permanently paralyzed from the waist down it's just absolutely gruesome um her husband patrick clancy he had left the house roughly 25 minutes before to pick up dinner and when he returned the first thing he said he noticed and this is just such an eerie detail was that the house was very quiet and naturally quiet if you have three young kids generally you're gonna have a pretty loud household um and so he knows something's wrong he goes upstairs and the door to the primary bedroom is locked and that's when he said he especially knew something was very wrong so he unlocks the drawer he gets the key he unlocks the door and then he sees blood um he goes to the window that's open and he sees lindsey lying on the ground outside um so he calls 911 he goes to lindsey did you say anything to lindsey when when you found her in that [00:03:19] Speaker 2: state yeah i said what happened and what was her response she said i tried to kill myself did you um ask her anything else i said where are the kids and what was her response she said they're in the basement and at that time she didn't tell you um that they needed help or they were in danger or any or they were injured correct correct so he goes to the basement and devastatingly [00:03:49] Speaker 1: he discovers that his five-year-old daughter cora his three-year-old son dawson and his seven-month-old callan so lindsey had strangled them with exercise bans cora and dawson were both deceased and his seven-month-old was in critical condition there are no words uh to properly just yeah there's no words um yeah and i just i we kind of set the stage here with the crime and i just want to take a minute to say that we're obviously like getting into very graphic things early on um but we just wanted to kind of set the scene initially with with what happened so now more than three years later lindsey is on trial in plymouth superior court for three counts of first degree murder she has pleaded not guilty uh she doesn't dispute that she caused the children's deaths but what she disputes is that you know through an insanity defense whether she should be held criminally responsible for it her attorneys argue that she was in the grip of a severe and rapidly escalating moment of postpartum psychosis that was worsened by a cascade of psychiatric medications at the moment of the killings prosecutors argue the opposite they say that whatever mental health struggles she had she was lucid deliberate and fully aware of what she was doing when she killed her children so this case has become one of the most closely watched criminal trials in massachusetts history um not only because of the incomprehensible nature of the crime but because it's really forced a public reckoning with postpartum psychosis a very rare but very real psychiatric emergency that can turn a new mother's mind against her in a matter of days or even minutes yeah i think that mental health is a newer thing that we are all aware of you know as a culture seeming to care about all of a sudden yeah and i think specifically mental health when it comes to women postpartum is even newer feeling i mean i feel like i was not aware of postpartum mental illness postpartum depression until maybe like i don't know it just was not it was not a part of the cultural conversation for me as an adult until like the last you know 10 years i think that postpartum depression was a taboo thing for women to discuss and talk about because you know as a new mom i think that there's all this pressure on you to be like in the you know in absolute bliss bonding with your baby and i think that a lot of women feel a lot of shame to admit that they're struggling and it was um i maybe it was it wasn't nicole kidman it was one celebrity female celebrity who said that they experienced postpartum depression and remember how tom cruise said he believed it didn't exist no i don't remember that yeah he tom cruise um basically yeah yeah basically tom cruise you know steeped in scientology and scientology famously is anti-psychiatry um said that he thought it was a myth um and so anyway yeah there's been stigma um and there's been shame around postpartum depression which is a huge problem because it prevents women from telling others what they're going through and ultimately seeking help so this i think this trial is really so important because we're really learning what potentially can happen and now i know there are going to be a lot of people who say she wasn't in psychosis right she she deliberately wanted to do this and that is the crux of this case but there are a lot of people who do believe that when she committed these crimes she was having an episode and she was not in the right state of mind and she did not you know she did not have a grip on reality at all also whether or not you believe that she was in psychosis or she was lucid on january 24th it is absolutely undisputed that she was in a severe mental health crisis in the months leading up to this crime right and so there's just like a lot of attention now you know on on on what that looks like okay so let's back up and talk about lindsay and patrick and give people an idea of the texture of their family life and who they were so lindsay is now 35 years old she spent years working as a labor and delivery nurse in massachusetts general hospital in boston one of the most respected hospitals in the country and obviously there's a great irony there because she was a labor and delivery nurse and so she was a health care provider she was someone who cared a lot about helping others colleagues and friends who knew her have described her in various accounts that have surfaced since this case became public as attentive hard-working and devoted to her patients and later to her own children and it's a detail that's haunted the case from the start she's a woman who spent her professional life helping bringing babies safely into the world and how it's how is it even possible that she would go on to kill her own three children so lindsay and patrick married and settled in duxbury which is a picturesque town in massachusetts south shore roughly 35 miles south of boston and they had three children in quick succession so there was cora who was their oldest daughter and um she was actually named after the very first baby that lindsay helped deliver um and she loved princesses and playing imaginatively with her younger brother dawson who was full of energy very funny prone to kind of you know squabbling with his older sister over toys in a way that really any three-year-old would and callan their youngest was born in may of 2022 just eight months before his death yeah um one thing or two a few things one so i guess she wanted a big family and she got pregnant pretty quickly after they got married and this was something that she was excited about happy about she was very family oriented um and also i think it is very meaningful that she names her first child after you know the first baby that she helped deliver clearly she finds a great or found a great deal of meaning in her profession to name her first child after that child and i do think it is just something to really know you know this was not an unfeeling cold person who had no respect for life this was someone who it seems like actually was very invested in her children and in bringing life into the world right and their entire you know family unit looked from the outside like the perfect little happy young family um patrick worked in sales and lindsay had stepped back from full-time nursing to take care of the children and you know she occasionally would do like a per diem shift uh they also employed a nanny elaine rossi to help with the child care but a detail here that would become significant later is that they actually ended the arrangement with elaine rossi the nanny um in the weeks before the killings when patrick and lindsay decided that they would care for the children themselves yeah so you know this was a loving happy family um and then there was just an unraveling after callan was born as lindsay is very much struggling with her mental health so now that the trial is on um the public is kind of getting the first detailed picture of lindsay's mental health decline uh that really began in the months leading up to these killings and this is all kind of pieced together through the medical records and the testimony from patrick and from different uh psychiatric providers so lindsay first sought psychiatric treatment in september of 2022 roughly four months after the birth of callan and according to dr jennifer tufts an outpatient psychiatrist with a professional interest in perinatal mental health um lindsay actually specifically went to her you know because she uh specialized in that and um lindsay was experiencing escalating anxiety as she prepared to return to work so dr tufts diagnosed her with generalized anxiety disorder and adjustment disorder with depressed mood not bipolar disorder or postpartum psychosis and she prescribed zoloft after starting and increasing the medication however lindsay reported worsening anxiety and severe insomnia the zoloft was discontinued beginning what would become months of medication changes yeah so by november her symptoms had escalated enough that she sought emergency treatment for severe insomnia and she began seeing additional psychiatric providers including specialists in perinatal behavioral health over the following week she is prescribed or tries numerous medications including prozac trazodone ambien remeron clonopin and seroquel in spite of trying all these medications her anxiety depression and insomnia continues but the clinicians treating her have testified that they did not observe her with mania or psychosis i want to just inject here a little bit of my own personal experience with psychiatrists and taking medication because i think it's it might be helpful for people who you know aren't familiar with this at all so when you you know when you first start seeing a psychiatrist you explain the symptoms you're having and then you know they might recommend medication or they might not um but it's it's really kind of a different process because it takes a while for a lot of these like like a medication like zoloft which i've taken to kick in so you're not going to be able to feel the effects a lot of times you know and i'm obviously not a doctor but you know it'll take weeks before you can start feeling it it's not like an immediate you know uh remedy it takes a while to kind of like acclimate to your system and so if she's experiencing these terrible terrible symptoms you know it's it's going to take so long for these medications to potentially work or not work or for them to really know when they would be like to really properly examine them if they're to see if they're working so you kind of you have you like start on a medication and then you don't you might check in one week later or you know two weeks later but it's just you know time marches on and if and you know so if you'll notice like she seeks treatment in september um but november you know her symptoms are still escalating and now it's just like now we're just trying new things but it's going to take a minute for those new things to kick in and so it's just like i don't know if that's helpful for people to understand the way that like the way that this are these are just like not fast fixes where you can just like automatically know this medication is working this one's not i think what you're getting at is obviously it's not like advil where you'll know if it's working in an hour this is something where you're gonna have to wait to see what's working over several weeks and during the several weeks you're gonna have to most likely keep enduring whatever struggle you're going through so i think that does help paint a picture of just the of how probably excruciating this experience was for her i think also the insomnia is really huge here in my research for this i read that like at one point she said she was only getting three hours of sleep like at best and i mean anybody knows when you are i mean when you are going on days and weeks of very little sleep like your mind changes i think that this it all just paints a picture of a very very dire situation yeah and one thing i want to say is that i actually don't have an opinion on this this whole case i don't have a theory i i feel like um i really just am very gripped by it but i really don't know whether she was in a true state of psychosis when this happened or if this was something that you know she knew what she was doing i don't have a conclusion yet personally um but so i just want to give that disclaimer when i tell you the following i was listening to a seven-part series on this case to prepare for this episode and someone wrote in to that series and they said i you know had a severe psychiatric episode after being on zoloft for i think they said they only took it once and they felt the effects though for weeks and they said that they all also didn't even feel like they went back to normal for a couple years and so these medications can you know they can be perfect for some people for other people they can absolutely cause them to potentially have issues um and so that's another thing to really kind of know about it's like these are medications that are tampering and tinkering around with the you know chemicals in your brain and that's a delicate system to be you know tinkering with especially if you're operating on very little sleep yes and then when you're maybe introducing new medications and they're interacting i mean i know another thing here is that she is seeing a couple different psychiatrists and they're not all necessarily talking to each other about their treatment plans and their histories of being with lindsay like this is what she told me this is what she told me and one thing about that they talk about it in the trial um there she's not doctor shopping right so she's not getting prescriptions for a bunch of different doctors i believe one of her doctors maybe retires and refers her to someone else there's just it's all very kosher um she gets you know a recommendation to see a different doctor from her mother-in-law or something like that but the way that um the way that patrick describes her seeking help from these doctors was all very above board yes um okay so back to you know this time of crisis for her and her seeking help and treatment she starts seeking help in september and by december her condition had become considerably more alarming she reported suicidal thoughts and made two calls to a suicide or crisis hotline patrick later testified that lindsay also disclosed thoughts of harming herself and the children to him and the couple began actively pursuing a higher level of psychiatric care yeah so you know patrick testifies and these doctors testify that like basically every month some there's kind of a new development or you know she's seeing a different doctor and things are getting worse um it's not like she's just like letting this go unchecked for months um so then around december 20th lindsay was evaluated at the center for women's behavioral health at the women's and infants hospital in rhode island a program specializing in perinatal psychiatric illness despite the severity of her symptoms she was not admitted to the specialized program and clinicians reportedly believed that her medications particularly seroquel could be contributing to her condition and they just recommended that she just reduce taking that drug so she continues to struggle and around the beginning of january she voluntarily admits herself to mclean hospital because of suicidal ideation so she comes under the care of psychiatrist dr alia goodhart and lindsay reports feeling numb and goodhart ultimately diagnoses her with severe major depressive disorder without psychotic features her medications are changed and reduced and over the course of roughly five days of hospitalization she appears to improve goodhart does testify that she never observed signs of psychosis in lindsay so this this admission from this doctor has become a major focus of the defense because under cross-examination goodhart acknowledged that in more than 20 years of psychiatric practice she actually had never treated a patient with postpartum psychosis um she also acknowledged that she did not administer a validated postpartum depression screening tool which i think is called the edinburgh postnatal depression scale and had not obtained lindsay's prior psychiatric records before she was discharged basically you know it's interesting that this doctor says that she didn't appear to see any psychosis within lindsay but she also had never seen a patient with it in her 20 years so the defense's argument is that lindsay had finally reached one of the country's leading psychiatric hospitals in crisis and yet the doctors evaluating her still failed to identify the condition they now say she was actually developing all along so after leaving mclean she returns home and resumed outpatient treatment with dr tufts she reportedly denied that her suicidal ideation and frightening thoughts had returned but continued expressing concern that the medications she'd been prescribed were making her feel worse um that concern became central to the defense's broader theory that lindsay's underlying illness was mismanaged and misdiagnosed while an increasingly complicated medication regimen may have exacerbated her condition but outwardly she still appeared relatively normal and on january 22nd two days before the killings the clancy's had dinner with friends one friend later told investigators that lindsay seemed fairly normal although she was quiet and spent much of the evening on her phone and sort of kept to herself um the friend was surprised that lindsay had actually come at all given what patrick had shared about you know the state of her mental health and how she was doing uh the friend said that it was the first time they'd seen her in months so the next day january 23rd the day before the killings lindsay has a virtual appointment with dr tufts um and lindsay says that she's doing all right although somewhat more anxious which she described as a racing heartbeat according to dr tufts lindsay denied suicidal or homicidal thoughts and dr tufts saw no sign of psychosis in fact dr tufts testifies that she had never observed lindsay to be psychotic at all during any of their sessions so this final appointment is what makes lindsay's psychiatric history so important to this case once again she was not someone who never sought help i mean she was a nurse herself in the four months leading up to january 24th she saw multiple psychiatric providers she cycled through numerous medications sought emergency treatment i mean she checked herself into a facility yeah she contacted crisis services and was evaluated by you know specialized mental health providers and you know she just did everything yeah and i think that's where a lot of people are feeling like wow if a woman checks herself in and says i'm having you know suicidal ideation i'm voluntarily committing myself um i think some people really just baffled at the way that she was it seems like the she did not get a real high level of care and that these professionals did not catch this the medical providers in this situation absolutely failed her and i think a big thing was that they were not talking to each other to kind of like put all the puzzle pieces together yeah i think not only that but also you know it's interesting to me that she tells patrick that she's had you know both suicidal ideation and thoughts of harming the children but she doesn't tell any of her medical providers that she's had thoughts of harming the children and there is the question of you know if that had been communicated to them from patrick maybe there could have been a different outcome here maybe they would have taken this more seriously um but that is i think that is an important note right because she does she kind of like she raises the red flags about her emotional state to both the medical professionals and her husband in a pretty dramatic way yeah i mean i think that as far as i know in my research for the for this case you know she checks herself into that facility but she doesn't have like a a a really severe crisis or episode in these months yeah it's not like she had any crazy episode where people realized that she was potentially losing touch with reality and i do think that's an important note yeah i mean the only thing that was close to that that i saw in my research was that at one point she started to exercise a lot and she was well she wasn't also sleeping and so she was like exercising a ton like running three miles then like just then biking a ton just kind of doing a lot and that didn't really make sense because she also wasn't like sleeping and it just it just was sort of out of character but yeah there was no um oh there was this incident and this should have tipped everybody off yeah and i think that's what's so gripping about this right like she was seeking help but the absolute severity of what she was going through was not detected and so i think that people it just it's scary it's really really scary it's because you always want to think like it's like when someone gets sick or something that happens you always want to know like okay well did they have a symptom they ignored do you want to start you know going through your mind of why this wouldn't happen to you and so i think that when people are hearing a story about yeah a wife who was suffering from postpartum depression and who was going through it that still is so shocking that she did what she did yeah and i mean we all know plenty of people with i mean i have like ocd like we all know people with all of the you know the mental illnesses or like a range of mental illnesses i should say um and so it's it's really hard to imagine that's you know someone can be struggling with a severe mental illness and that they can just like suddenly snap snap and have psychosis have yeah you know um and and so with all of that in mind you know despite everything that she tried to do you know the medications that were prescribed to her you know no treating provider diagnosed lindsay with postpartum psychosis or reported observing her in a psychotic state and that fact really sits like at the center of this case and between the prosecution and the defense the defense argues that lindsay was developing a severe postpartum or bipolar spectrum illness that was repeatedly missed and potentially worsened by her psychiatric medications the prosecution is pointing to you know that exact same medical history and is asking a very different question and what they're asking is if lindsay was repeatedly evaluated by psychiatric professionals including during you know an inpatient hospitalization stay just weeks earlier and none of them observed psychosis when and whether did that psychosis actually like emerge right that is a key question not only that but it's about when did the psychosis begin when did it stop because when you learn about what she said you know what she said to patrick on the ground she says i tried to kill myself the kids are in the basement um what she says to the doctors at the hospital you know it seems like she's pretty lucid before and after and has a grip on reality it's not like she you know patrick's like what happened and she's like aren't we at disneyland not to make lighter whatever but it's not like she's she knows exactly where she is who she is she knows where the kids are um not to say that you can't have a psychotic episode and remember it in detail and now be in a lucid state but that's i think one of the huge parts of this right because her entire case rests on this idea that she had this 25-minute psychotic episode that happened to fall when he had left the home um and gone to cvs as summer fades most people start shifting back into regular routines with earlier mornings and fuller calendars getting dressed can feel like one more decision so having a simple system really helps macy's makes that transition smoother by focusing on staples that make for an easy formula start with the pieces you already reach for like a favorite pair of 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in his home office um patrick later would testify this is just so sad that this was one of her best days um and this is a very cruel detail to emerge from this case because this was just an ordinary ordinary even joyful day um and there was no way for him to have any understanding that things had gone desperately wrong yeah i think i read that she like sent pictures of like the snowman to like you know to patrick's mom or to her mom basically you know just like in the family group chat um just this like cute activity that they'd done so which really quick i just have to say if anything that points to her defense and means she was completely fine and i i just think that there is a world where i and i again i like will flip-flop mentally in my head as we're doing this deep dive because none of this makes any sense and so there is a world in my opinion where all these medications and all the sleep deprivation could have triggered a moment of psychosis it absolutely could have um but then there are just other details that are also confounding that lead you to believe that she maybe she planned it so so in the early evening patrick left the house to pick up dinner telling his family that he would be right back he kissed one of the children on the head on his way out and he was gone for approximately 25 minutes and this window of time has become like a huge thing in the trial and it's central to the prosecution's theory of premeditation and it gets into a very pointed question that the prosecutor asks patrick on the stand which is you know had anyone ever told him to not leave the children alone with lindsay he responded and said no um and you know his his stops for that evening um in that 25 minutes were a cvs uh he went to the pharmacy there and to a restaurant where he picked up takeout um prosecutors allege that in that narrow window lindsay used exercise resistance bands to strangle cora dawson and kellen in the home in the home basement and then went upstairs cut her wrist and neck and jumped from a second story bedroom window into the backyard below one of the prosecutors characterized her actions in blunt terms he said she did not take advantage of the situation when her husband left the home that night she created the situation so we kind of touched on these details earlier but when patrick returned the house was unusually quiet uh he went to the primary bedroom and he found blood on the floor and the window was standing wide open he testified that he quote saw blood everywhere um he ran outside and found lindsay lying on the ground in the backyard face up badly badly injured and drifting in and out of consciousness one thing to note is another fact that you know is on the prosecution prosecutor's side is that there was a google search for how long it would take him to go to cvs um and so it you know she understood how much time she had now whether that was part of the psychosis right whether the voices told her to plan i that's where it gets really dicey but anyway that is another another thing to know yeah and uh some people have said too that you know how do we know that she wasn't just looking like to see if there was traffic on the way or like if you know she was planning on getting takeout too like i will say like i'm a person who i look up stuff on google maps all the time even if i'm not taking the journey like i want to see how long will it take ben to get home from wherever he's at completely fair completely fair um so he tries to call 9-1-1 immediately but he struggles to get the call to connect um his phone keeps toggling onto the wi-fi he eventually does connect to dispatchers um and this seven to eight minute call is so harrowing it is apparently just like so terrible it's recommended i guess it is online but it's really recommended not to listen to it um and when the jury heard it when it was played for them first of all patrick leaves the courtroom because he does not want to hear it um and when it's played for them i guess jurors are very visibly emotional i just i mean it makes me sick that it's like somehow online yeah like i am the world we live in i know i know i'm just like yeah it's one thing to want to talk about this case and it's just another thing to like some of these details are just like it's just some things are just too it's just like too too much yeah it's like you don't not everyone should be privy to it absolutely and there's a reason why you know photos of the scene are not online like there's a reason why these things are not just released so it is it is upsetting that it's publicly available um yeah and one other thing to note that number one call is particularly devastating because he doesn't even realize that he's left it on so once he goes to look for the children in the basement because she's told him that they're there he accidentally just it does not hang up and so you hear just him discover um his children and we are chandler and i are going to discuss everyone the theory about patrick at the end because obviously we know that there is a huge you know there are definitely a lot of people out there who are suspicious of him and so we're going to talk about that at the end yeah we'll get to that later um but back to what happened so later on at the hospital lindsay you know is rushed there because she has fallen and her spinal cord was severed from this fall it left her completely paralyzed she coded went into cardiac arrest and needed emergency resuscitation um she also needed major blood transfusions and two days after the killings while lindsay was awaiting spinal surgery at brigham and women's hospital forensic psychiatrist dr biswas evaluated her and according to testimony lindsay who could not speak at the time because she was on a ventilator communicated by writing on paper and she wrote that she was quote horrified by what had happened and asked for an attorney yeah so one thing to note here um a lot of people are very suspicious of the fact that she doesn't really ask about her kids at all at all she doesn't ask about her kids period um and her focus seems to be on herself she asks i guess you know if her legs are straight so she's coming to realize that she's been paralyzed um and you know she asked for an attorney so it seems like she's very focused on on herself and what's happening to her um and again you know if if she was in a if she had psychosis you would definitely think there would be more more questions about what had happened to her children and their well-being also i don't know the exact timeline details of this but obviously their youngest child you know the uh seven month old was alive he was alive i'm not sure if he was conscious i don't think he was conscious what i'm saying is that it's interesting because like i don't know when he actually did pass away but i you know did she ask about him no she was doing you know like it's just if no questions were asked about him or it's it is it is that's interesting um so lindsay's arrested and charged in the following days for the killings in september 2023 a plymouth county grand jury indicts her on three counts of first degree murder and three counts of strangulation one of each per child in the immediate aftermath before the granular psychiatric timeline had been established at trial public reporting captured a family and community in absolute shock so the duxbury fire chief and deputy chief issued a joint statement acknowledging the emotional toll on the first responders who worked on the scene offering them support resources a candlelight vigil was held for cora and dawson calen's death was confirmed slightly later according to that early reporting fox news and other outlets reported early on citing unnamed sources and court documents that lindsay had allegedly heard voices before the killings and that her defense would center on failures of the medical system that treated her a preview of the argument that would eventually be formalized in court today so patrick clancy in the years between you know the crime and the trial became somewhat of like a public figure in his own right he started a gofundme campaign within within days of his children's death writing that quote the real lindsay was generously loving and caring and that all he wished for was for her to somehow find peace in october of 2024 he gave an extensive interview to the new yorker telling the magazine i wasn't married to a monster i was married to someone who got sick and this interview actually becomes a significant point of the pre-trial legal conflict as the prosecutor sought to obtain the reporter's notes and recordings uh they argued that they might you know contain relevant statements for the trial yeah interestingly though i did look this up they um they couldn't they they ultimately lost they were not able to get the reporter's notes which is interesting because you would think that um condé nast which owns the new yorker would just wanna i don't i it's that's weird to me that they wouldn't be like yeah take everything we we got so i don't i don't really particularly understand that patrick though has since remarried and relocated to manhattan he married an endocrinologist and they they either have a child or she's pregnant and so a lot of people are you know a lot of people doesn't sit well with them how quickly he has moved on and created a new life but we're again we're going to talk about that at the end yeah um okay so i think we should now get into the trial yeah it's worth noting that it takes a very long time to get this trial on the books that gets the dates get pushed a bunch of times um and so we finally arrive at the trial in july of this year so the prosecution calls patrick clancy as their first witness a significant and telling choice since as the children's father and lindsey's then husband his testimony carries enormous emotional weight and you know it can establish the factual backbone of the case before any medical testimony begins he testified across the trials for several days describing both the ordinary texture of their family life and its slow then rapid unraveling so patrick also testified about lindsey's efforts to seek mental health treatment in the months leading up to the crime and also he talks about the practical details of her medication regimen how the prescriptions change frequently and how sometimes he would dispose of discontinued medications at her request and how after the crime he turned over additional pills to investigators the defense used this portion of the testimony to begin establishing the sheer volume and complexity of what lindsey had been prescribed in those you know in those months before the crime um you know in late 2022 early 2023 and they actually physically produced the pill bottles that had been dispensed to her just kind of like you know visually show how much there was yeah and the prosecution they tried to really focus and hone in on lindsey's mental state um and you know what people thought that were coming into contact with her so they asked patrick [00:38:37] Speaker 2: you know did anyone ever tell you not to leave your kids alone with lindsey no in january of 2024 2023 did lindsey ever tell you that she wanted to harm your children did she ever tell you she was going to kill your children yeah and the prosecution there they're just [00:39:03] Speaker 1: trying to establish that lindsey's family support network had reason to see her as a person who was managing not as someone who was in an active danger undercutting the narrative of an obvious visible psychotic break that anyone around her would have recognized so just a note here that the defense filed a motion during this stretch of testimony uh asking prosecutors to refrain from referencing internet and that was an indication that the prosecution possesses digital evidence and intends to use to argue for premeditation and that the defense is really fighting to keep some of that evidence or at least it's framing away from the jury yeah and interestingly you know when they are been there using that phrase they're using it um to try to lead the jury to believe that she's looked up methods to kill her children but she was actually looking up suicide methods so that is another like very problematic thing the the prosecution has done and you know i understand that everyone deserves like we have decided that every person has a right to a defense um and we are going to also have prosecution um for crimes of course so i understand that you know attorneys should do their best to fight for who for who for who they're fighting for but i just don't understand how it's appropriate to to intentionally mislead or lie and i know that sounds like so naive because i know like attorneys lying is basically like people think that's just a like that's um a given yeah and so i just i just find it to be i just find it to be insane because it's like it shouldn't be about winning it should just be about the truth and so both sides should just be presenting the truth anyway yeah well i love i love you with the scales of justice right here um sorry not just for a little bit of levity and um i mean i i think i don't fully understand what's happening here like is the are the lawyers literally saying ways to kill like verbatim in front of the jury because if so that's crazy that i know that feels like that i'm like objection like i'm ready to rise out of my seat and strike that from the record no exactly but the problem is you can't unring the bell right so even if the judge grants the motion the jury has already heard it this is something i've learned from my extensive john grisham experience um which has given me a jurist doctorate uh but you know it's like like literally what you do and then like the uh the other side objecting like that's a whole strategy this is for any lawyers listening like god help me because it's such a dumb like i thought you were going to take away any lawyers listening call me i can give you something for any lawyers listening i actually understand how things work um but yeah but that's a whole strategy is like you can still say things and the judge can still say you know strike that from the record but like you're saying you can't unring the bell okay so this next section is important to me so this is the nanny's testimony her name is elaine rossi um and i want to say that i actually started listening to the first thing i ever listened to about this case was the nanny's testimony um and it is just so sad because the nanny describes lindsey as a wonderful mother she describes lindsey as like very caring very conscientious very concerned about their schedules what they're eating like again also things that something else that doesn't make sense if you're planning this why are we taking you know your daughter to the the pediatrician that morning it's like we don't really need a doctor's appointment if this is the plan and so i think that you know it's just it doesn't make sense at all what did you observe about her as a mother [00:42:58] Speaker 3: interacting with her kids i observed a wonderful mom who loved her kids who was she was very concerned with um their safety she was very uh concerned with calen's eating and sleeping she was a wonderful [00:43:12] Speaker 1: mother and she says i loved lindsey like they had a great relationship um and she really loved the kids she said that and that they were really sweet children so it's just it's heartbreaking so notably courtroom observers reported that lindsey held her head in her hands throughout lane rossi's testimony and did not look up even after elaine had left the stand um and this was just one of the moments where you know lindsey was very caught up in emotion hearing you know the nanny talk about her relationship with her yeah and i i think that clearly you know this was a woman she had a personal relationship with and so hearing you know seeing her reaction to this thing that's happened of course she's going to be very emotional um okay so let's talk about the dire entries that lindsey wrote so the week of august 3rd the 7th um the trial brought out some of the most difficult material encompassing both lindsey's private writing and details clinical details about her children's deaths um attorneys read aloud portions from lindsey's diary that she'd written in the months leading up to the killings um and this was you know her documenting her own declining mental health while she continues caring for her children and so these are some of the things she writes she says i'm completely overwhelmed trying to take care of the three kids i feel like i'm drowning every day she also says i don't know what's wrong with me i want help i want to be well i feel completely disconnected from my baby i feel like i'm going through the emotions every day i have crazy brain fog i i feel like i can't make a plan my mind never shuts off it's constantly thinking of the next thing someone needs i desperately want to go back to work but now i don't know how i'm going to function like she's really just she's so clearly on the brink right because yeah i think that having three young children is already stressful enough and then you you couple on top of that insomnia and then you also couple on top of that postpartum depression and then you couple on top of that all these medications yeah yeah that aren't helping she says i want to connect with pat again i know he needs it i need it um and she i guess she told pat that she said i even said the words i want to die while pat was crying or while he was crying referring to cal and sleep training um i think one thing to to note here is that these journals don't contain i don't want to be a mom anymore i hate my children i hate my life i'm oh i i'm done with this she says like i want to be well you know i i want help um so i think that that is just it's important to note that that she is like she is just expressing obviously like a lot of anxiety and a lot of problems with what she's going through but she's not describing um you know wanting to harm her kids or wanting to not be a mom anymore pop apologist is brought to you by progressive insurance do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash progressive makes it easy just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies the process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates potential savings will vary not available in all states so after patrick clancy's testimony concluded prosecutors called nearly a dozen first responders paramedics police officers you know everybody who arrived at the duxbury home on the night of the crime their testimony focused on the clinical and procedural details of the scene their attempts to resuscitate the children the nature and severity of lindsay's own injuries when they arrived to treat her and other things like that yeah the jury also was taken to the home so they go to the clancy's former home and they go to the basement they go up to the primary bedroom they look at the window they you know go into the backyard um just so that they can really get a in-person idea of the layout of you know where all of this happened um and then there's testimony from a cvs pharmacy employee who interacted with patrick corroborating essentially his alibi which there's also video camera footage of they called a lot of medical witnesses and essentially they have constructed a psychiatric wall or a clinical wall they're calling a sequence of medical professionals who treated lindsay in the weeks and months surrounding the killings each testifying that they personally observed no signs of active psychosis so truly trying to build this case that obviously she was completely lucid and acting on her own free will during the crime okay so the first doctor is sajal shaw uh this doctor examined lindsay multiple times at brigham and women's hospital in the days and weeks following the crime in both january and february and they testified that lindsay was calm and cooperative during those evaluations and they were really conducted in part to determine whether she was in an appropriate mental state to consent to changes in her medical treatment uh in a january 30th assessment so you know just days after lindsay denied any suicidal or homicidal intentions she denied experiencing hallucinations or delusions and her thought process was described by dr shaw as organized and goal directed by a february assessment lindsay was described as focused on her legal and physical circumstances and looking forward to rehabilitation i think this is worth just taking a moment to talk about you know this horrific thing has just occurred and she you know doesn't seem it's almost like now she's lucid like she is now like you know okay i'm focusing on my rehabilitation and my this is now legal case in front of me she's no longer suicidal yeah i think that the problem is that lindsay seems to be primarily lucid right and very quickly after this happens she is focused on the future and focused on her defense and i think that there is a sentiment that if she had truly experienced the psychotic break she wouldn't be so just coherent right from the get-go afterward and that is you know perfectly dovetailing to the next doctor dr jilam biswas because two days after the killing she's on a ventilator and her first questions are about herself you know are my legs straight and then she also asks for an attorney and says that she's horrified but again this is not what happened where am i who am i this is not hallucinating this is not visibly you know clearly still enduring an episode this is someone who is coherent and focused on the future right right who's kind of snapped out of it whatever it was yeah and i think that's that's what's so crazy is like she had to snap into it and then she has a snap out of it right step into it really quickly because she was had a great morning seemed completely fine and that's not out of it immediately when patrick is back and asked where the kids are and so that's the crux of the case of the defense i mean i really i really just struggle with this on so many different levels like with making up my own mind about this and i want to come from a place of empathy and i do most of the time when i'm hearing about what she went through but then it's like you stack all these facts together and it's really hard to believe on some level because you're really asked to believe she had a 25 minute moment of psychosis where she was in a different reality and she was not acting you know of her own free will essentially and then she's basically back to back to earth immediately after it's over it's it's really hard to grapple with i mean what do you guys think this is obviously the key question in the case please write in the comments let us know where you're at because we are just we're confounded i think like where i struggle is the idea that this was somehow premeditated whether or not she was in a frame of mind where she knew that she was committing a crime and she committed it anyway or she was so out of her mind that she didn't even know she was committing a crime but you know and so of course she went went through with it like i feel like that's the two worlds i'm between like i i'm not in any world where i think she planned this do you know what i'm saying so you're saying that she either she either had a true psychotic episode or she snapped and was so upset and frustrated and over over her life and she was she just had like a crazy angry episode like in one world she knows that she's committing a crime but she's going through with it anyway and then there is another world where there are voices in her head and she's like i have to follow these voices that's just how i'm like classifying it because it's unbelievable to think that she could have premeditated this and it honestly doesn't the facts don't lead to us to think that she premeditated it in my opinion except for the fact that she googled how long it would take him to do that i just don't think that i yeah i don't i mean why did she pick up the phone i mean yes she picks up the phone midway through the killings ostensibly because yeah but i saw to ask her a question and she says if you call back i might be busy with something he said it sounded like she was in the middle of something but i don't i don't understand then like why why not just not pick up the phone if we're meditating this that i mean that's such a good point or if you're in the midst of doing it yeah and also it doesn't seem sophisticated enough of a plan to be premeditated by somebody who was like looking to get away with this some people would theorize that because she's a medical professional she knew her cut wounds were not sufficient to yes there's this and there are some people that think that she you know went out the window but just like gripped on and fell from as like low of a height as possible um that way you know she would she would obviously be injured but she wouldn't actually die and this was just her way of getting out of being a mother and again it just that to me that doesn't make any sense i think she she was a person who had suicidal ideation she wanted to escape her life yeah she she literally um she's paralyzed she's a medical professional she knew she was going to risk paralysis and there are you know the i definitely have seen where people say like it's actually kind of crazy that she got paralyzed because she didn't fall from that high yeah it was 20 feet or something i have no idea yeah um i don't either and that is why you know that is why i will be very interested to hear i think from the psycho the psychologist that the defense calls because i want to hear more about the details of how psychosis happens and how possible all of this is right yeah that's another good point like we are still only hearing the prosecution side of everything okay so getting back into it so dr alia goodhart this is the mclean hospital psychiatrist who supervised lindsay's discharge roughly three weeks before the crime she testified that she saw no signs of psychosis during lindsay's stay but as we've talked about her credibility on this is called into question because she says that she's never actually treated a postpartum psychosis patient in her 20 years of experience um the next is dr jennifer tufts so this is lindsay's outpatient psychiatrist who saw her the day before the killings and she testified that lindsay denied any suicidal or homicidal ideation in that final session and that she had never observed signs of psychosis and lindsay across their four months of treatment together um that was testimony that it's on on its face is powerful for the prosecution given how close in time it sits to the killings themselves so if she's saying the day before you know i felt i i have no suicidal or homicidal ideation that is powerful but dr tufts testimony also handed the defense significant material because her own records confirmed that lindsay repeatedly told her across multiple sessions that she believed her prescribed medications were making her condition worse yes a complaint that according to the defense's theory went unresolved right up until the night lindsay killed her children so she's not feeling better and she's telling her doctor that things are getting worse exactly exactly okay so two additional forensic psychiatrists are called um who also testify that lindsay appeared clear-headed and rational in the days immediately following the killings um and taken together the the through line of all this is consistent doctor after doctor across a span running from three weeks before the killings to weeks after described a patient who was not hallucinating and not disconnected from reality in the way that a genuine active psychotic episode would typically present so the defense's counter argument which obviously comes through cross examination because they're not putting on their own witnesses yet has been to attack the rigor and completeness of the clinical picture so they highlight gaps in screening missing historical records treating physicians with limited specific experience and postpartum and psychiatric emergencies and a documented pattern of lindsay herself raising concerns about her medications so that is where we are at with the testimonies from these doctors i want to add one thing here uh you know and this is just for people who have never seen a psychiatrist but you know when you meet with your psychiatrist they always ask you kind of the same questions and a lot of times it's a very short uh session i mean i would hope that these sessions were not short because she was in such a bad state yeah it was like a longer session but they kind of you know they're not necessarily always therapy there and in fact a lot of times they're not therapy they're really just checking in on your symptoms and um and so that's just something i think about here with like what they were able to gather and what they were able to just like report you know it's a it can at times be a very clinical you know 15 minute conversation that you you feel like you're they're just checking things off their list yeah because they're deciding if they should refill or adjust your medications they're not there to ask you you know well why does it make you feel that way generally exactly that's for the psychologist so i think we should just pause here and talk about how an insanity defense works in the state of massachusetts um you know and also like a lot of states so massachusetts does not use the term insanity defense uh the operative legal term is actually quote lack of criminal responsibility and basically you know the idea here is that a defendant is not criminally responsible for conduct if at the time of the conduct as a result of a mental disease or defect they lacked substantial capacity to either appreciate the wrongfulness or criminality of their conduct or to conform their conduct to the requirements of the law so basically you know like they didn't have the mental capacity to comport themselves or to follow the law obviously so i think i think that's interesting here especially with this idea of it being psychosis like how far does this psychosis go how far does it go and one thing that is you know for her defense they have a much lower threshold that they need to prove because they can say she was in psychosis and they can say that she knew what she was doing was wrong but was so controlled by the voices in her head whereas in other jurisdictions other than massachusetts massachusetts i guess has like has a very different framework than most jurisdictions um it's required that they not only prove that she was in psychosis but also that she didn't know what she was doing was wrong so the level of psychosis in most other places is it's a much higher threshold to prove and also the prosecution has to prove their case that she knew that she was doing was wrong beyond a reasonable doubt so if there's any doubt for the defense then she will be well she will be able to not get acquitted but essentially not be found guilty and sent to a psychiatric facility also i think we should acknowledge the fact that this is first degree murder that she's being charged with which is premeditated yeah it's not second degree so i guess it really is acquitted of that um and then in that case because she will be found not criminally responsible she will be sent to a psychiatric facility but you know this that's definitely a situation where after after she does okay for a certain period of time she can 100 come back to living a in society you know like it's not like she has to remain there forever and did you know she's actually been in the hospital since this yeah she's been held in hospital treatment um since it happened and this was three years ago so yeah um i mean she's also you know she's paralyzed so she's had to you know she cannot walk she cannot you know do a lot of things on her own anymore um and so i think she's had to like yeah i'm sure she's had to radically relearn how to you know how to exist in her body yeah no absolutely okay because this case really comes down to whether or not she was experiencing postpartum psychosis really quickly let's just discuss postpart postpartum psychosis itself so it's a rare but severe psychiatric emergency clinical estimates place its incidence at roughly one to two cases per thousand births making it far rarer than more commonly discussed postpartum depression postpartum anxiety or the baby blues it typically has a rapid onset often within the first days or weeks after childbirth and its features can include a constellation of severe symptoms mania manic-like agitation profound depression disorganized thinking hallucinations or delusions you know we should note that the killing happened the killings happened eight months postpartum not within the first couple months so that is that does not abide by these standards also it's really important to note that postpartum psychosis it's like the same uh degree of rarity it's the same degree of rarity for if you experience it that you end up you know committing infanticide so most people who experience this do not kill their children that's just important to to understand but it can it is something that can escalate extremely quickly sometimes within days because if you do experience this you are profoundly detaching from reality and you know you are at risk for self-harm for harming your children so if you are experiencing this it just is a very severe acute problem um okay so i will be very interested to see you know how the defense puts on their case i want to hear more about postpartum psychosis whether evidence is that she was experiencing it because again as we've belabored it was a very brief moment of postpartum psychosis and essentially essentially a sea of lucidity right she was right lucid up until and that she's been lucid since um so i i will be very interested to see the defenses psychological experts shopify is i think one of the most interesting brands because it's a b2b product but we all know what it is and when i'm shopping online i don't know about you if the checkout is not shopify i simply don't want to continue the transaction i don't want to put in all my information deal with a new kind of user experience and interface i just want shopify where i can easily one click check out shopify handles the checkout experience from start to finish they help more people like me complete the purchase and when they come back their information is already saved with one tap removing that friction is so crucial for increasing revenue i just can't tell you how much you need to use shopify if you have an e-commerce website in 2026 it is the only way they give you the tools to manage inventory marketing operations all in one place which is why millions of businesses from well-known names to those just beginning rely on shopify the focus stays on building rather than troubleshooting with shopify nothing stands between your idea and a real business so go make it one start your free trial at shopify.com slash apologists again that's shopify.com slash apologists to start a free trial today i want to talk about patrick clancy though because i think that patrick clancy has become such a lightning rod for people fascinated with this case i think it's time we talk about patrick as well because that's actually the first like little bit i heard about this case i was talking to a friend and she was like have you heard anything about this case like you know everyone you know started off thinking that it was the mom who did it and now so many people are saying that it's actually the husband and that's what kind of like piqued my interest about this because it seemed like whoa like what what has come to light um so i think we should let's let's bring up some of the you know the interesting details here yeah i think that people say he's all of a sudden made money from this he had to go fund me he's suing all these medical practitioners um and they look at him and they look at the fact that he's now married he has a kid on the way he has completely moved on with his life i heard someone say we'll never know if that relationship started before or after this happened and he'd started dating this woman a year after the killings oh i heard it was four months no it was not four months he he moved to new york about four months after this happened but he didn't start dating her until a year after the killings and then they i believe got married three years after the killings so it's not like it's not like well that wouldn't make sense because the killings were in did they just get married this year i guess yeah so i believe they got married in april okay okay okay well your math checks out so i actually have it right here patrick moved to new york city about four months after the deaths and began dating rachel approximately 13 months after them they moved in together roughly two years after this happened and married three years and three months after okay i do think that you have a horrific thing like this happen to you i don't think it's completely unreasonable to try to start moving on with your life a year later oh i don't think this is why people think that he did it because he like moved on i think that's one thing that people like i like to like to bring up but there's a couple other things that people talk okay what else there's surveillance imagery of him in you know running his errands and it looks like he's changed his shoes yeah this is one point i'm not saying i agree with that because i i don't necessarily think that's you know super damning um the other point is that lindsey's body temperature was roughly 82 degrees and that just is extremely low given how like little time she was actually outside like that's lower i believe than john o'keefe's body was when he was found okay so that's one thing like i am bringing these points to you to just tell you what the internet chatter is saying i do not i to me like and this is what we talked about even before we hopped on to record yeah like i don't i don't think patrick did this but a lot of people do yeah and this is where i i kind of wonder about misinformation because part of me wonders if this is just like reddit chatter that's just completely like not even close to reality because it's so hard for me to imagine that he did it he pushes her out the window and then you know her body is way colder than it should be and the forensic team on the scene just like doesn't even i mean if you're please write in comment let us know what you think like you think that they just didn't catch it like the children were deceased for much longer than they realized and they didn't catch that i just think that they like they they know how to time things so well well yeah i mean people also think that i'm not saying it makes sense yeah i agree with you it doesn't i don't think any of these data points are like or honestly that confounding okay so let's just say that he was able to do this right he somehow um he committed these horrific crimes he put he he kills his children he pushes lindsey out the window um and then he like then he goes for his alibi shots at cvs or the two different stores why is change why does changing the shoes matter it's not like i don't know i no i agree it's just completely irrelevant like why would that help his case yes i think i i don't know i have not honestly gone down this rabbit hole far enough because i'm not that convinced i think the only way that that would make sense is someone's like that's old footage so it's like he also has like cvs on like cvs is in on this with him well i think i don't know potentially i mean people people literally said that they think the new girlfriend was the one who called cvs to ask about the like because lindsey placed a call to cvs uh asking about if they had a certain medication in stock and people yeah i mean people think that he took her apple watch with him so he could answer the call from her i i don't yeah and then he's also an oscar worthy actor if you you know i guess if you hear this 911 call because he is so upset like that is also let's also just not you know forget the fact that lindsey is very much so still here with us and if if patrick coerced her into doing something or if there was some or if he did this don't you think that her defense attorneys would have like i don't maybe they're gonna bring that up i just it's not even a part of the conversation i think lindsey would bring it up i think lindsey would say no i know my husband pushed me out the window where are my children mm-hmm i think she would she when the you know when she's waking up and can't feel her legs anymore she would say you know is patrick arrested he yeah he put something in my drink and i woke up on the ground where are my children like she admits to this why what sorry i have to belabor this what would be her motive for admitting to it right that that's like somehow she is actually she is actually deserving of the oscar because she's like kept the scheme up and yeah i mean it's just no i know there isn't it doesn't make any sense she's trying to obviously not go to prison for the rest of her life i think that we are just kind of living in this true crime internet sleuth world i mean also we're in massachusetts we're in like karen reed territory where that case was like stranger than truth is stranger than fiction or whatever like you and i you know i just think that a lot of people want to sort of find the crazier story here or like or they want somebody to truly blame who i don't know it's just like otherwise is it too tragic so in the wedding group chat i am in where now we were talking about like okay cocktail hour starts at this time you know this is the attire and now all of a sudden it's all about this case yeah there was someone super adamant that the husband did it and i you know i brought up all my points and they're like well i actually don't know that much about it i've like read about it for like two minutes so i need to look into it more and i just think people hear husband has a new wife husband made money from this um and they are like it's a juicier story i'm gonna make a generalization right now i just think men have to just like find a new wife and like mentally move on in a way that women don't like they have to just be like okay here's my new life here's a here's like a new person i just find that they're like way more like compartmentalizing than women can be i also think that men a have an easier time dating especially like later in life and i think that also they are less picky like it's yeah it's a combo of the two she looks a lot like lindsay for what she looks so much i mean she's she's she's lovely and i she's very like esteemed i think she's an ob-gyn something like that yeah i think she's gonna be gyn i think i heard her that um anyway she's very esteemed she looks very much like lindsay which is kind of eerie but i i think it's it's okay like this man in my opinion came home to his all his three children dead so i do believe that it's okay for him to move on and i think that it's i think that jumping to this conclusion and just like getting in the comments and spouting it i think it just speaks to the way that we don't see people on the internet as real people a lot of the time like we can just so easily sound off about things that are actually like profoundly hurtful and i you know i haven't i will i'm it's a little pot kettle because you know i certainly have theorized about plenty of people i would say but it's a good reminder yeah i mean i i think that what we're dealing with here is a really tragic story of like the system failing lindsay and just of just a tragedy where like i don't think the doctors you know we're trying to you think she was in psychosis oh i i mean this is where it's like i don't know by the law's definition like i think that she believed that the voices in her head were telling her she needed to do this okay that's what i believe that she believed the voices in her head okay whether or not the voices in her head were so strong that she didn't think she was committing a crime i don't know like that's where it gets very like it gets just like way in the weeds of like i don't know like do you know what i'm saying like it just gets a little too uh meta um so that's what i believe um but i think that like that is maybe just like too hard for people to grapple with because she's not to me she's not 100 evil no definitely not um and i think that when you hear the nanny's testimony and hear what a wonderful like wife she was or a mother and she was so concerned for the children i go back and forth because to me it doesn't make sense that she was always so lucid except for this 25 minutes but then it doesn't make sense that if you're planning on you know this doing this you're also that morning taking your daughter to the doctor and building snowmans and sending photos i understand the argument that sometimes when people decide to kill themselves it's they seem to be in a better mood before because they've like made this plan they made peace with it people say that i've heard that on several podcasts about this case um but i just i i personally don't i just don't buy it so i i really i actually just don't know i go yeah no i i i don't yeah i don't i don't fully obviously know either i just think people want a 100 evil person to blame because that's easier for your mind to deal with absolutely absolutely it's easier for your mind to deal with and it's easier to to say this will never happen to me yes um okay i want to talk to you guys about something really quick so of course we are going to keep up with this case we will eventually do another installment um or at least talk about the verdict but please everyone let us know what you think i'm really curious to hear what everyone thinks about this because again like i've said i go back and forth so i'll be interested to read everyone's comments yes and if there are details that that you know of that you know somehow we didn't see like i want i don't know i just i want to know why the internet is so caught up in patrick right now tell us if we've gotten something wrong because it's obviously a lot of material and so you know we of course um are not completely flawless as much as it may look that way um certainly doesn't look that way no um but on another note we want to talk about one thing with the show really quick yes we have an administrative note um so i've been diving into the analytics i used to really look at the numbers all the time and i stopped doing that because i just felt like it was mentally healthier for me to not be constantly on the back end of the show and seeing what episodes whatever yeah it can be just a little too much feedback from the numbers exactly from the computers so it's honestly been over a year since i looked at them and it was really exciting because i looked at them and literally chandler our show has grown so much it's actually so incredible and surprising to me how much it has grown and how many people are listening i feel so blessed and thankful um and i want to say i want to hear from you guys because i think that we have a very active dm community lots of people write us in the dms um but our comment section is like kind of ghost towny and i want to hear from you guys like where are you listening let us know what you thought of the of this case we're gonna be more active in the comments chatting and to kind of celebrate like how well the show is doing we're going to be picking three comments per week whether it's on spotify whether it's on you know on youtube under the episode or whether it's on one of our reels we're going to be picking three commenters a week to give a hundred dollar visa gift card to just to say thank you and to celebrate um this this little show that could eventually plus one million to everything lauren said that's something we used to say in corporate america lauren really used to say plus one million no no plus plus plus one or plus 100 whatever anyway not important um but i agree with everything you said also a lot of times i think the comments that do show up are from people who are mad at us because we don't know what we're saying about tom brady or they think we don't know what we're talking about so i like yeah it can be just from strangers on the internet and honestly sometimes the strangers are right sometimes the strangers are wrong it's fine we're okay but i just also love hearing from our our audience our people yeah yeah so find us in the comments after this episode if you want to continue the conversation we're going to be like lala says like we're living in the comment section we're going to be living in the comments for a minute um okay and i just want to say thank you as well to people who are leaving us positive reviews it has been such a treat to read all of your reviews um a recent fun one from jay sinclair says a breath of fresh air i just discovered this show and i love the vibe as someone who is kind of out of the luma pop culture the show gives me the overview i need without all the fluff we're fluff free chandler also the hosts are just fun and hilarious lauren especially is gorgeous and everything that uh no i'm like i'm not saying that on my side of things um i want to i want to give a shout out to sar mt5 who called us historians so i think we can actually now add that to our linkedin she said historians adore this eloquent witty and gorgeous pair of sisters i mean actually now she did say we were gorgeous that's that's very very nice um she says their pop culture commentary helps me appear to be up to date when chatting with my girlfriends they put their shoulders to the wheel for their listeners their show is thoughtful non-toxic and hilarious okay that is really really nice because i don't we do we do put our shoulder to the wheel and we try to be non-toxic we absolutely do and you know what i just want to say it's a lot more enjoyable to put our shoulder to the wheel on this podcast than it was to do so when we were doing the trek you know in utah as our religious upbringing yes that's a deep cut for anyone um who grew up mormon as well although we are not practicing anymore but only feel love um what no it's just it's a that is the truth that is how it's a succinct way of describing what has occurred yes agreed okay what else that that i mean i think that concludes our show you guys premium this week i have so much to say about house house of stossi i literally i only slept for three hours after i finished the season three hours that night i have so much to say so i cannot wait to discuss the finale with chandler on premium this week we are going to just be chatting all the hollywood goss and tea i feel so corny saying yeah i actually just disassociated you guys if you want to be a global elite there's never been a better time okay ever ever you don't have to book a flight to davos you can just sign up for 9.99 a month and you get an extra episode of these two charming witty hilarious sisters hosts sister blonde hose and sisters blonde hose that's for sure every friday um so we will be back on friday for our global elites but to all pop apostles near and wide all corners of the earth we love you so much bye we love you bye