Killer Cross Examination - Cooperating Witness Cross Examination By Attorney Neil Rockind

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Are you still living at home with your parents or your mom? [00:00:02] Mr. Spencer: Yes, I am. [00:00:27] Speaker 3: Mr. Spencer, I'm going to ask you some questions, okay? Questions I ask you should generally call for yes or no answers. If you can't answer it that way, you let me know, all right? Yes. Mr. Spencer, you have been around people who have used narcotics, haven't you? [00:01:07] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:01:09] Speaker 3: And you've seen people who, in your experience, appear to be high, haven't you? [00:01:14] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:01:15] Speaker 3: Who appear to be under the influence of some kind of a drug or affected by some kind of a narcotic, haven't you? [00:01:21] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:01:21] Speaker 3: Can you look the jury in the eye and tell me whether or not you've taken any narcotics today? Prescription pills, anything of that sort, Xanax, opiates? Yes, I have taken prescription pills today. I've taken... When did you last take a prescription pill today? [00:01:38] Mr. Spencer: This morning. What time? I'd say around 9 o'clock. [00:01:44] Speaker 3: And what medication did you take this morning around 9 o'clock before you came to court? [00:01:49] Mr. Spencer: I took Vyvanse. [00:01:51] Speaker 3: Vyvanse. Vyvanse is an amphetamine? [00:01:53] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:01:55] Speaker 3: Vyvanse is for ADHD? [00:01:56] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:01:57] Speaker 3: The behavior, the way that you're communicating, and I'm going to speak to you, try to speak softly and have a dialogue with you, okay? [00:02:04] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:02:06] Speaker 3: The way that you're communicating now, isn't this the way that you've seen people communicate in your own personal life who appear to be high or under the influence? [00:02:15] Speaker 1: Judge, I'm going to object to that. [00:02:17] Speaker 3: What's the... [00:02:17] Speaker 1: He can ask him if he's high or under the influence, but how... I don't have to ask him. He's asking him to evaluate his... I don't understand the question. [00:02:25] Mr. Spencer: Okay. I don't understand how I could look at myself from a third-person view. [00:02:29] Speaker 3: So you... Well, first of all, so the prosecutor objected. Your Honor... [00:02:33] Speaker 4: Say the question again. I don't understand. [00:02:35] Speaker 3: Yeah, sure. The way that you're communicating now, I mean, can you hear... I'll withdraw and I'll ask it differently. Can you... [00:02:40] Mr. Spencer: I don't mind, no. No, I'm not. Okay. [00:02:43] Speaker 3: This is the way that you normally communicate? [00:02:46] Mr. Spencer: I don't normally communicate from a stand in circuit court in a case involving an older man that threw parties with underage people providing drugs. I'm nervous. If you're accusing me of being drugs, then you're doing a very bad job as an attorney. Okay. You should be asking questions if you're actually going to help your client. Okay. Next question. [00:03:10] Speaker 3: I appreciate that. [00:03:11] Mr. Spencer: And now I'm angry and I'm going to tremble my voice even more. Not because I'm on drugs, but because I'm nervous and you're intimidating. That's what you do. [00:03:18] Speaker 4: Okay. [00:03:19] Mr. Spencer: It's not going to work. [00:03:20] Speaker 4: Okay. Just answer the questions. [00:03:22] Mr. Spencer: That's my answer. [00:03:24] Speaker 4: Okay. Well, we'll just answer his questions and we'll get you out of here. Okay? All right. Go ahead. Okay. [00:03:30] Speaker 3: Thank you, Honor. Today, you testified a few moments ago to the jury in response to Ms. Hand's questions that Joe has provided you with ketamine on prior occasions at his house. [00:03:49] Mr. Spencer: Correct. [00:03:51] Speaker 3: And you said it was almost, I think I wrote down, said almost every time you were there. Do you remember that? Yes. And at the preliminary examination, that was when you testified before in district court. Do you remember that? [00:04:11] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:04:12] Speaker 3: And you took an oath at that time. Is that right? [00:04:15] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:04:16] Speaker 3: And at the time, that was closer in time to the events of February 15th. True? Okay. And you told the, that time you were asked this question and this was your answer on page 62. Approximately how many times had you ingested ketamine that the defendant gave you at his house? Your answer, it was one time. It was that night. Wasn't that your answer under oath at the preliminary examination? [00:04:50] Mr. Spencer: Yes, it was. [00:04:51] Speaker 3: Today, you've told the jury something different, haven't you? [00:04:55] Mr. Spencer: Yes, I have. [00:04:57] Speaker 3: So, two times under oath, you've given two different answers. True? True. Both of those pieces of testimony can't be true, right? [00:05:12] Mr. Spencer: If, I know you've said to only keep this yes and no, but I'd like to explain that this isn't about the amount of times that I did ketamine at Joe's house. This is about, it goes beyond that. I, like I've stated multiple times, I was very inebriated every time that I was at his house. I may have even been given ketamine without knowing it. [00:05:41] Speaker 3: You've never told the police before in response to any question. Let me finish my question. Look. You'll get every opportunity, Mr. Spencer. I'm keeping my voice very calm. I'm going to give you every opportunity to talk as much as you'd like. But you've never before today in front of this jury made an allegation that somebody gave you ketamine without your knowledge. Isn't that true? [00:06:01] Mr. Spencer: Can you please rephrase the question? [00:06:03] Speaker 3: Yes, until just now. You've never told the police or accused in a formal setting in this case, Joe, of having given you ketamine without your knowledge, right? [00:06:18] Mr. Spencer: Correct. [00:06:19] Speaker 3: That's something new that you just told the jury now. [00:06:28] Mr. Spencer: Well, maybe it was something that I didn't consider when I first stated that I only did it one time. [00:06:35] Speaker 3: I'm sorry. I'm asking you, I'm moving on to another subject. You're here testifying in court. You understand that, correct? Mm-hmm. Yes? [00:06:45] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:06:46] Speaker 3: You've just made another allegation against Mr. Shield that he drugged you with ketamine without your knowledge. Isn't that true? That's what you just told the jury? [00:06:58] Mr. Spencer: Yes, it is. [00:07:00] Speaker 3: You never told that to any police officer formally, nor did you testify to that previously in this case? [00:07:06] Mr. Spencer: I may have mentioned it before. I'm not sure. There were so many times that I talked to detectives. [00:07:14] Speaker 3: You just told the jury a second ago that it didn't dawn on you to think about that. Now you're saying that you actually may have said something about that. Those are two different things, aren't they? [00:07:37] Mr. Spencer: Do you want me to go back and explain myself? [00:07:40] Speaker 3: No. I'm asking you a specific question, Mr. Spencer. [00:07:43] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:07:44] Speaker 3: Okay. So, your testimony today includes a new allegation against Mr. Shield that you were somehow drugged without your knowledge. [00:07:54] Mr. Spencer: I'm not saying that. I'm saying that it's a possibility. I'm not saying that that specifically happened. I'm saying it's a possibility. As in, there's no way anybody's ever going to be able to know that. I don't even know that myself. I'm just saying possibly. And maybe I considered that when I just said that I took ketamine multiple times at his house. Maybe I considered that it's a possibility. But there's no way I'm ever going to know if it actually happened. [00:08:22] Speaker 3: Wait a minute. [00:08:22] Mr. Spencer: That's what I'm implying. I'm not implying. I'm not alleging him of anything. [00:08:28] Speaker 3: Under oath, the prosecutor asked you on direct examination whether Mr. Shield had provided you with ketamine prior to the time she went to his house. She asked you that. It was a very simple question. Do you remember? Do you remember the question and answer a few moments ago? [00:08:47] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:08:47] Speaker 3: And you said yes. And you said almost every time I was there. [00:08:54] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:08:54] Speaker 3: And you're saying that when you told the jury that under oath that you were thinking to yourself that maybe it was given to me without my knowledge? Is that your explanation for that testimony under oath? [00:09:07] Mr. Spencer: Yes, it is. [00:09:09] Speaker 3: Does that make any sense to you? That you would answer a question directly that he gave you drugs in the past, gave you ketamine in the past, but now when I'm questioning you it's, well, maybe it was, maybe I was thinking of, maybe I was drugged and didn't know it. That's why I answered it that way. Is that really the explanation you want the jury to accept? [00:09:32] Mr. Spencer: I don't know how else you would want me to explain this. I would appreciate it if you could move on to the next question. [00:09:41] Speaker 3: I'm sorry? Do you want me to move on to the next question? [00:09:45] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:09:48] Speaker 3: The questions I'm asking are, Mr. Spencer, pointing out from contradictions in your testimony. Do you understand that? So I appreciate you would like me to move on, but I'm sure you can appreciate that the judge will ultimately tell me when I have to move on. You understand that too, right? [00:10:07] Mr. Spencer: Correct. [00:10:08] Speaker 3: You want me to move on because it makes you uncomfortable to have to, getting caught in what is untruthful testimony. [00:10:16] Mr. Spencer: Well, there's a lot of these really small discrepancies, like how many times did you do this? How many times did blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that like, I didn't just like, this isn't like a test that I studied for. This isn't college, this isn't something that I think is like a huge deal. So when you guys throw all these questions at me and then throw it on the record, it's not something that's like constantly running through my mind every day. And I'm remembering all these little tiny, little details and splitting hairs about it. [00:10:45] Speaker 3: That's what I'm doing? You think I'm splitting hairs? I'm questioning you about the truthfulness of your testimony and contradictions, and you're telling the jury that that's splitting hairs. Is that what you, is that what you're characterizing? [00:10:57] Mr. Spencer: I'm giving my time trying to answer all of these questions to the best of my ability. [00:11:01] Speaker 3: We'll get to the reasons why you're here later, okay? Do you understand? But I'm still going to put these questions to you. Is that okay with you, Mr. Spencer? Yeah, I'll ask you another question. Thank you. You said today that you told the prosecutor today in response to her questions that every time you went to Joe's, you got drugs. Is that what you, that is what you testified to today, right? [00:11:26] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:11:27] Speaker 3: Okay. Isn't your story evolving from what it was when you testified at the preliminary examination? Isn't it growing, evolving? Aren't you exaggerating? [00:11:42] Mr. Spencer: I think you may be, I think you may be, you're mistaking exaggeration for lack of memory, and quite frankly, like my, I don't want to remember the things that happened at Joe's house. I've been trying to escape. I've been trying to forget them for a year. You're mistaking exaggeration from my lack of knowledge and care about that entire situation. It's been a very long time since the last testimony, and I thought that I put all of that behind me. [00:12:28] Speaker 3: You didn't think you'd be coming back here again? [00:12:31] Mr. Spencer: I was really not expected, I was not expecting to come back here at all. [00:12:37] Speaker 3: So, I'm putting to you the questions, and I'm trying to do it as calmly as I can. Let me ask it again, okay? Isn't it true, I don't know if you don't like the way that, the beginning of the question, let me withdraw that. Your story, your claims about Joe and what took place at his house are evolving, they are growing. Isn't that true? [00:13:01] Mr. Spencer: I would not say that that's true. [00:13:03] Speaker 3: Okay. You testified today that on the, on February 15th, that you drank alcohol. That's what your testimony was under oath just a few moments ago to the jury, right? [00:13:25] Mr. Spencer: Correct. [00:13:27] Speaker 3: You were asked this question at the preliminary examination, page 62, lines 18 to 19. Did you drink alcohol that night? Your answer was no, I did not. Correct? [00:13:42] Mr. Spencer: Correct. [00:13:44] Speaker 3: Again, your testimony today is different than it was at the preliminary examination when you testified under oath there. Right? [00:13:56] Mr. Spencer: Correct. [00:13:57] Speaker 3: Again, different in the way that it's evolving, worse for Joe, making Joe look worse and worse and worse. Isn't that what you're doing here? [00:14:12] Mr. Spencer: I don't think that's my intent. I think my intent is to just tell the truth. [00:14:19] Speaker 3: You told the jury a few moments ago in response to Ms. Hand's questions that she asked you about nitrous oxide. Remember those? [00:14:31] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:14:32] Speaker 3: She asked you about whether or not you would, asked you about cocaine being provided to you at Joe's house. Do you remember that? [00:14:39] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:14:39] Speaker 3: You said that Joe had provided you with cocaine. Again, you said that that was your testimony on direct examination. Do you remember that? [00:14:46] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:14:47] Speaker 3: That's not true, is it? [00:14:51] Mr. Spencer: Pardon me? [00:14:51] Speaker 3: Joe never gave you cocaine. You didn't do cocaine at Joe's house. That's a lie. Right? [00:15:07] Mr. Spencer: Please, can you please rephrase the question? [00:15:11] Speaker 3: The question was confusing to you? [00:15:12] Mr. Spencer: No, can you just... [00:15:14] Speaker 3: Yes. You testified today that Joe gave you cocaine and you used cocaine at Joe's house previously. That's what you testified to today. Yes. You've acknowledged that. I'm putting to you that that is not true. That is a lie. Correct? [00:15:35] Mr. Spencer: That is not a lie. I did use cocaine at Joe's house. [00:15:39] Speaker 3: Okay. On page 61, lines 15 through 17, at the preliminary examination, where you testified closer in time, the question was put to you, did you partake of the nitrous oxide or the cocaine? Your answer was no, but I've heard and seen it at his house on occasions. Wasn't that your answer on the road then? [00:16:07] Mr. Spencer: That may have been, I don't know, I haven't... [00:16:10] Speaker 3: Both of those can't be true, Mr. Spencer. [00:16:17] Speaker 4: Okay, so that was your answer to the preliminary examination, correct? Yes. Okay, that's the next question. [00:16:21] Speaker 3: Both of those can't be true. What you testified to today to the jury and what you testified to under oath at the preliminary examination, right? [00:16:28] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:16:29] Speaker 3: So one of them is a lie. [00:16:33] Mr. Spencer: I was lying about not using them. [00:16:36] Speaker 3: You were lying at the preliminary examination. [00:16:38] Mr. Spencer: I felt guilty because my dad was in the room. [00:16:42] Speaker 3: At the preliminary examination, you were under... So the jury understands that. You took an oath before you testified in the preliminary examination. Is that correct? [00:16:51] Mr. Spencer: I didn't want my dad to hear that I was using cocaine. [00:16:53] Speaker 3: You took an oath to testify to the truth at the preliminary examination in district court, right? [00:17:01] Mr. Spencer: Correct. [00:17:02] Speaker 3: You raised your right hand just as you did today. [00:17:04] Mr. Spencer: Correct. [00:17:05] Speaker 3: You looked... There was a judge there named Judge Nancy Karniak, right? [00:17:10] Mr. Spencer: Correct. [00:17:10] Speaker 3: You looked her right in the eye and answered the question, no. Isn't that true? And you're testifying now as that was a deliberate, intentional lie. [00:17:22] Speaker 4: He said yes. [00:17:24] Speaker 3: Isn't that perjury? Yes, it is. Okay, I'll rephrase it. You recognize that when you're under oath, you've faced the penalty of perjury, don't you? Yes. You understand deliberately and intentionally lying under oath for any reason is perjury. Do you understand that? [00:17:42] Mr. Spencer: Yes, I do. [00:17:43] Speaker 3: So you concede that you committed perjury from your own perspective? By your own words, you committed perjury at the preliminary examination? [00:17:50] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:17:50] Speaker 3: When the police entered the house that night, you were in possession of drugs, right? [00:18:09] Mr. Spencer: Yes, I was. [00:18:11] Speaker 3: And tell us again what drugs you were in possession of. [00:18:16] Mr. Spencer: Xanax. [00:18:17] Speaker 3: Xanax. How many Xanax pills were you in possession of? [00:18:20] Mr. Spencer: Two. [00:18:22] Speaker 3: And you did not have a prescription for those pills, isn't that true? [00:18:27] Mr. Spencer: That's true. [00:18:29] Speaker 3: You understood at the time you were in possession that it was a crime to possess them, isn't that right? [00:18:33] Mr. Spencer: Yes, I did understand that. [00:18:35] Speaker 3: You understood that it was a serious crime? [00:18:39] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:18:40] Speaker 3: And you understood that it was a felony? [00:18:42] Mr. Spencer: Yes, I did understand that. [00:18:43] Speaker 3: So you knew that when the police entered into the house that night that you were committing a felony? [00:18:49] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:18:50] Speaker 3: You knew that you were committing multiple felonies if you count the number of pills you possessed. Isn't that true? [00:18:54] Speaker 1: Objection. Judge, it calls for a legal conclusion. I would draw it. That's true. [00:18:57] Speaker 3: I would draw it. It's fine. I would draw it. I'm asking questions very politely. [00:19:03] Speaker 4: He is asking questions. But you know that's not true. [00:19:06] Speaker 3: Well, no, no, I resent that because I'm not suggesting that I know that that's not true. And I don't like to suggest, you know me, I'm not suggesting anything. [00:19:14] Speaker 4: Well, you suggested to the jury that if you have two pills that's too serious. [00:19:17] Speaker 3: I'm asking a question. You know what, then I'm asking a question. And if I'm wrong about that, then I'm wrong about that. And I certainly will withdraw that. [00:19:24] Speaker 4: All right, next question. [00:19:26] Speaker 3: So, I will withdraw that. And when the police entered the house, you actually, as they entered, what did you do with the bag of pills that you, or the couple of pills you had? Were they in a bag? [00:19:38] Mr. Spencer: They were in a piece of, like, plastic wrap from cigarettes. You remember that? Cellophane. [00:19:46] Speaker 3: You remember the? [00:19:46] Mr. Spencer: Yes, it was in my pocket and I threw it. [00:19:48] Speaker 3: You have a good memory of that? [00:19:50] Mr. Spencer: Yeah, because there were cops and I had drugs on me. I threw them. Okay. It was like an instinct. [00:19:56] Speaker 3: Your goal, you told the jury today that your goal was to be deceptive with the police when you threw the drugs away from you, right? [00:20:06] Mr. Spencer: Yes, I wanted to make it look like they were not mine. [00:20:10] Speaker 3: Now, at the preliminary examination, I asked you questions about that when you were under oath previously. And what was your goal in discarding the drugs? Do you remember that? [00:20:20] Mr. Spencer: Yes, I do. [00:20:22] Speaker 3: And originally, you lied under oath of the preliminary... [00:20:25] Mr. Spencer: I believe I didn't understand the question correctly. [00:20:28] Speaker 3: Can I... Let me just finish the question. You can answer it any way you want. If you want to argue with me, that's up to you. I'm just going to ask the question, okay? [00:20:34] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:20:35] Speaker 3: Isn't it true that at the preliminary examination, when I first asked you, wasn't it your goal to deceive the police through the drugs that you lied? You denied that. It was your intention. [00:20:51] Mr. Spencer: I don't remember. Maybe I did deny it. But I don't really see any other reason why I would throw them. Obviously, I was trying to deceive the police. I think it was foolish of me to say no. And if I did, I may have not even realized that I was saying no. [00:21:08] Speaker 3: Well, the question I asked you, wasn't this your question and answer at the preliminary examination, page 79, line 7 through 11, was your goal in dropping them to the floor was to attempt to deceive the police, right? And your answer was, I don't know if it was to deceive the police. It was mostly just so that I wouldn't get in trouble because I wouldn't want to get in trouble. [00:21:26] Mr. Spencer: So, yeah, I was trying to deceive the police. That's what I was saying. [00:21:30] Speaker 3: And then I questioned you further. And ultimately, after you originally denied that it was your goal to deceive the police, I ultimately questioned you. [00:21:37] Mr. Spencer: I know, I originally, I was not denying. I originally said I was trying to not get in trouble, as in I was trying to deceive the police into not thinking that they were mine. The whole time I was agreeing that, yes, I was trying to deceive the police by throwing them. [00:21:56] Speaker 3: That's what you ultimately arrived at after you and I had a long exchange under oath. Isn't that true? [00:22:01] Mr. Spencer: No, no, I stated that initially you just tried to twist it around to make it look like I was saying something else. And it took forever. [00:22:11] Speaker 3: Your goal in dropping them to the floor was to attempt to deceive the police, right? Today you answered that question very promptly to Ms. Hand. You said yes. At the preliminary examination, you said, I don't know if it was to deceive the police. That's how you began the answer. [00:22:28] Mr. Spencer: And then I further, I went on to say I was doing it so that I wouldn't get in trouble. That is deception. That's the definition of deception. [00:22:38] Speaker 3: I concur. [00:22:40] Mr. Spencer: So what are you getting in? [00:22:43] Speaker 3: Your initial reaction when you, your first thought, when the police came into the house and you were in possession of drugs, your first thought to yourself was, I should be deceptive. Is that right? I think he's admitted that. Okay. [00:23:02] Speaker 4: Yeah, he answered it. [00:23:05] Speaker 3: You tried to deceive the police at that time because you believed at that moment that was in your best interest. Isn't that right? [00:23:13] Mr. Spencer: Correct. [00:23:13] Speaker 3: All right. So at the time, did you think that that was okay? Acceptable? Appropriate? Yes. All right. So deception is a tool that you personally use when you're confronted with a problem or with trouble? [00:23:38] Mr. Spencer: I don't like to ever have to deceive anybody. But in that situation, yes. That's, like you said, a potential felony. And in my mind, quite a bit of trouble would come out of that for having two little prescription pills in my pocket that someone gave to me. Yes. Yeah, I, that is a tool that I use. Deception. It's not something that I like to use, and I hate to admit that. It's not like I do it all the time. It was a survival tactic that I, that I chose to do. [00:24:14] Speaker 3: That's, so deception is something you use to protect yourself. [00:24:17] Mr. Spencer: Yes, I think it's something that everybody uses at least once in their life, whether they have to or want to. It's, yes. [00:24:27] Speaker 3: Okay. That wasn't the only act of deception that you attempted to employ with the police when they entered into the house, right? You would use another. [00:24:36] Mr. Spencer: But where are you, I don't know what you're speaking of. [00:24:38] Speaker 3: You're placed, you're placed in handcuffs, right? [00:24:42] Mr. Spencer: Okay. [00:24:43] Speaker 3: And as the police are doing their work, at various times they walk by you and you are asking them questions, pretending like you had no idea what was going on or what you did wrong, right? [00:24:56] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:24:57] Speaker 3: And as the police walked by you were saying things like, why are you doing this, and I didn't do anything wrong. [00:25:01] Mr. Spencer: Well, I was questioning why I was being detained, and what, if I was being charged with any crimes, and if so, what I was being charged with. And that's what I was trying to figure out. [00:25:11] Speaker 3: At the preliminary examination you said, you said, why are you doing this, I didn't do anything wrong, please explain what was going on, why am I in handcuffs, what did I do wrong? Isn't that what you were telling the police as they were walking by? Yep, 81. [00:25:26] Speaker 1: All of that? [00:25:28] Speaker 3: 81, lines 2 through 7, 81, 21 to 25. I can go through it all. I'm trying to, I can go through each line. It's fine with me. Let's start with line 81 to 21 through 25. You were saying to the police as they were walking by, said, look, question on line 17, what else did you say to the officer besides as he's handcuffing you, you discarded the drugs. They're not in your direct possession at that point. Did you say, why are you doing this? Wasn't your answer. I'd say there was like a two, two and a half hour period between handcuffing me and when they questioned me in the bathroom and throughout that two and a half hour period, I may have asked twice, can somebody please explain to me what's going on? And that was it. You remember that? [00:26:18] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:26:19] Speaker 3: And then I went further on page 82. I said, did you say to one of the officers that passed by, why am I in handcuffs? What did I do wrong? Anything like that. [00:26:32] Speaker 1: That's Mr. Rapping's question. [00:26:34] Speaker 3: And then I'm going to ask the answer. [00:26:35] Speaker 1: Well, Judge, he's making it sound like the witness is stating those words in that terms. And he's. Were you asked this question? He was asking the question. [00:26:45] Speaker 3: I, you were asked this question. Did you say to one, I'm not sure what the objection was, but did you say to one of the officers that passed by, why am I in handcuffs? What did I do wrong? Anything like that. And your answer was yes. Something along those lines. Do you remember that? [00:27:05] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:27:06] Speaker 3: Okay. And you knew at that time that you had done something wrong when you were, and were doing something wrong when you made those comments to the police, right? [00:27:15] Mr. Spencer: Yes, I did. [00:27:16] Speaker 3: You were pretending. [00:27:18] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:27:20] Speaker 3: And you were continuing with your attempt to deceive the police at that point with those comments that you had done nothing wrong, right? [00:27:29] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:27:31] Speaker 3: So that was another act of, besides discarding the pills, that was your second attempt to resort to deception to protect yourself. Is that right? [00:27:40] Mr. Spencer: Yes, it was. [00:27:42] Speaker 3: At one point, Detective Doty, he took you or asked you to go into a bathroom to speak to him. Isn't that true? [00:27:51] Speaker ?: Right. [00:27:53] Speaker 3: And at one point, early on in your discussion with him, you attempted to lie to Detective Doty. Isn't that true? [00:28:01] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:28:01] Speaker 3: And you did, in fact, lie. Looked him right in the eye and you told him a lie. Isn't that true? [00:28:06] Mr. Spencer: Yes, it is true. [00:28:07] Speaker 3: What was the lie that you looked at Detective Doty in the eye and said? Do you remember? [00:28:11] Mr. Spencer: I told him that the prescription pills were not mine. [00:28:16] Speaker 3: Okay. And you knew when you were looking at Detective Doty, you knew that you were lying to him, right? [00:28:21] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:28:21] Speaker 3: That was, again, another method that you turned to yourself to attempt to try to get yourself out of trouble or to protect yourself. Deception lying, right? [00:28:32] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:28:33] Speaker 3: Okay. Now, would you agree with me that there were people at Joe's house for these events that were a mix of ages between your age and Mr. Shield's age? [00:28:47] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:28:47] Speaker 3: So it wasn't just young people like yourself. True? [00:28:54] Mr. Spencer: On occasions, there were people of Joe's age. [00:28:59] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:29:00] Mr. Spencer: And those were usually the nights that I would leave somewhat early just because I felt stranger around that crowd. I felt more comfortable there around a crowd my age. But, yes, there were people of his age at his events also. Just when I was there, it was mostly people my age. [00:29:25] Speaker 3: Now, when you went to go in and into the bathroom to go speak with Detective Doty, let me want to be clear about this. Before going in there, the police are doing their work, right? Correct. Right. And there are police that are sitting nearby while you guys are handcuffed and in chairs, aren't there? [00:29:46] Mr. Spencer: I'm sorry, can you? [00:29:47] Speaker 3: Yeah, you're in handcuffs in a chair at one point, right? Yes. And there are other people who are handcuffed in chairs, yes? Yes. And at one point, the police, they bring you into this bathroom, correct? Correct. By yourself, right? Yes. And they tell you to be truthful, right? Yes. And they tell you it's in your best interest to talk to them, right? [00:30:15] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:30:16] Speaker 3: And he says it may end up helping you in some way. That's what Detective Doty says to you, correct? [00:30:23] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:30:24] Speaker 3: And said, you were under the impression at that time that being truthful and giving him whatever information he needed would help you. You wanted to be as cooperative as possible at that point. Isn't that true? [00:30:39] Mr. Spencer: Not until, like, halfway through the conversation. Originally, like, I said yes, but I wasn't actually going to be truthful. I was still going to be deceptive. [00:30:50] Speaker 3: Wait, originally when you went to go talk to Detective Doty, it was your... [00:30:52] Mr. Spencer: Because I thought that... [00:30:54] Speaker 3: Was your plan to lie? [00:30:55] Mr. Spencer: Yeah, I was planning to lie about the prescription pills if they brought it up. [00:30:59] Speaker 3: So you're planning to lie, you said midway through your conversation with him, you still had the thought of deception in your mind? [00:31:05] Mr. Spencer: In the bathroom, yes. [00:31:07] Speaker 3: So the first half of the conversation with him, you're thinking, I'm going to be deceptive. The second half of the conversation, you decide that you should be... Well, he reminded me. Let me just finish the question, Mr. Spencer. I'm going to let you answer it any way you want. I just want to finish the question so the record bears it out. The first half of the conversation, are you saying that you had it in your mind to deceive him where you could? And in the second half of that conversation, you thought you would be truthful? Is that what you're saying? [00:31:34] Mr. Spencer: Yes, that is what I'm saying. Detective Doty reminded me after I lied to him in the bathroom. He first brought me in there and I lied to him. And he reminded me again, be truthful. It'll really help you out if you can just tell me the truth and be honest with me because he knew that I was lying. So then I changed my mind and I told him the truth. [00:32:01] Speaker 3: Told him the truth. He said to you that... And again, this is not... I'm offering this in terms of how this impacted your state of mind. He said to you that we're there for others, not for you. Right? [00:32:15] Mr. Spencer: Pardon me? [00:32:16] Speaker 3: He said to you, we're there for others. We're not there, we're not here for you. What do you mean we? Detective Doty said to you, we really aren't here about you. We're here about other people. Isn't that what he said to you? [00:32:37] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:32:37] Speaker 3: Okay. And he said to you, this isn't about you, but we want to know more about Joe. And if you just come clean and tell us the truth and tell us what we want to know about Joe, then we'll make sure that it all works out for you because you're a young adult. You have a future ahead of you. Isn't that what he said to you? [00:32:54] Speaker 1: I object at this point to the question. He's stating it as if it's a quote. And in that sense, it's hearsay. Well, it's not perfect if you didn't ask him about it first. [00:33:06] Speaker ?: Okay. I'll be happy to... I'll ask him. No problem. [00:33:23] Speaker 3: Isn't it true that Detective Doty said that this isn't about you? Correct. And he said, we want to know more about Joe. [00:33:38] Mr. Spencer: Something along those lines, yes. [00:33:40] Speaker 3: And if you just come clean and tell us the truth and tell us what we want to know about Joe, then we'll make sure it all works out for you. Isn't that what he... [00:33:47] Mr. Spencer: I don't know if they said that exactly. [00:33:52] Speaker 3: I'm laying the foundation for impeachment, Your Honor. [00:33:55] Speaker 1: Judge, Mr. Rocklein, this is hearsay if he's asking exact quotes of what Detective Doty said. That's hearsay. It's not a court statement by Detective Doty. If he wants to ask him general questions about what Detective Doty said and how it affected him, but Mr. Rocklein is looking as though he's reading a transcript of what Detective Doty said. It's not a transcript of what he said, right? [00:34:18] Speaker 3: It's a transcript of what the witness says. Okay. And that's how I'm impeaching him. It's not offered for the truth of the matter. It's offered for how it impacted Mr. Spencer. [00:34:25] Speaker 4: He hasn't denied it yet. Yeah. And you'll probably impeach him if he says, no, I wasn't asked that, or I didn't say anything. [00:34:30] Speaker 3: So I asked him the question, and then I said, is that what he said? And so then he can... [00:34:35] Speaker 4: But you're reading from the... [00:34:36] Speaker 3: However, I'm making sure I'm being literal as opposed to just guessing. I'm reading... I have my notes, and I have this. I can read from either one. [00:34:43] Speaker 4: Okay. Well, you can't ask him about what he said at the criminal examination unless you're impeaching him. [00:34:49] Speaker 3: You're not impeaching him. I'm not yet, because he hasn't denied it. So I'm not trying to... I'm literally trying to put to him the questions. Okay, that's his question. Okay. Detective Doty said to you... [00:35:01] Speaker 4: Did Detective Doty. [00:35:04] Speaker 3: But this is cross, so I can ask a leading question, can't I? [00:35:08] Speaker 1: Yeah. [00:35:09] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:35:09] Speaker 1: Is it? That's my objection. He's stating what Detective Doty said, although Mr. Rothkind has no idea what Detective Doty said, because Mr. Rothkind wasn't there. And he's stating it as if it's a quote of what Detective Doty said, and then asking him if that's true. No. That's not asking for the effect on the listener. That's asking him to validate or invalidate an out-of-court statement that was allegedly made that there... [00:35:38] Speaker 3: It's not what I'm doing, Your Honor. It's exactly what he's doing. I'm asking... I'm asking... We have previous statements from the witness. I am asking the witness specific questions. He can... If he agrees, there's no impeachment. If he denies it, then I impeach him with the preliminary examination transcript. [00:35:55] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:35:55] Speaker 3: So that's all I'm doing. So this is his testimony, and that's why I'm asking him these questions. So can I continue with my... [00:36:03] Speaker 4: Well, I'd love to hear the question. [00:36:04] Speaker 3: Okay. Detective Doty, isn't it true that Detective Doty said to you, we want to know more about Joe. And if you just come clean and tell us the truth and tell us what we want to know about Joe, then we'll make sure it all works out for you. Isn't that what he said to you? [00:36:28] Mr. Spencer: Something along those lines, yes. [00:36:30] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:36:31] Mr. Spencer: I don't know if that's exactly what it was. I don't memorize conversations. But yeah, something along those lines. [00:36:40] Speaker 3: Okay. And he said that to you, he said, because you're a young adult, right? You have a future ahead of you. Isn't that what he said to you? [00:36:49] Mr. Spencer: I don't remember him ever mentioning my age. [00:36:52] Speaker 3: Isn't that what you testified to at the preliminary examination when I asked you these very same questions? [00:36:57] Mr. Spencer: I don't know. Maybe I did, but I probably remembered it more back then. [00:37:00] Speaker 3: Okay. So your testimony at the preliminary examination, it's on page 88. He did ask you about it. He said, then we'll make sure it all works out for you because you're a young adult. You have a future ahead of you. Is that true? Is that what he said? [00:37:16] Mr. Spencer: If that's what I said before, then yeah. Honestly, right now, I don't even remember it. It's been so long. [00:37:24] Speaker 3: So in your mind, you knew that at that time they were interested in Joe, right? [00:37:30] Mr. Spencer: Yes. That's the reason why they invaded his house. They were after him. I don't think they were after me. [00:37:41] Speaker 3: So you were willing to lie about yourself originally with Detective Doty, but then you were told that it was about Joe, and so you knew that you had a clean slate. You could come clean and tell him whatever the truth was, right? So if your testimony to the jury is true and what happened earlier really did happen, ketamine being delivered to you on the 15th and you using it with Joe, all you had to do was repeat that to the police at that time, right? Correct. Just say, Joe gave me ketamine. Joe used ketamine with us. Joe delivered ketamine to us. [00:38:26] Mr. Spencer: They didn't ask me about that. They only asked me what drugs I had seen at the house. They didn't ask me. [00:38:35] Speaker 3: You're telling the jury that just a few moments ago upstairs, Joe had given you ketamine and you had used ketamine and he delivered ketamine. [00:38:41] Speaker 4: No, he's telling you what the police did. [00:38:43] Speaker 3: I'm telling you. I understand. And they told you they're there about Joe and not about, and you didn't tell Detective Doty that that night that Joe gave you ketamine. True? That night? [00:38:56] Mr. Spencer: I don't believe they asked me whether or not Joe gave me ketamine. I think they were just asking what types of drugs. And they didn't ask me specific questions. Doty, to my knowledge, from what I remember, he said, tell me what you know about Joe. So I just told them what I knew. [00:39:18] Speaker 3: So let's stop there. So you knew, tell me what you know about Joe. If you're telling the truth about what occurred earlier that night, that was something that you knew, that Joe had just delivered ketamine to you. [00:39:31] Mr. Spencer: I'm sorry, that, I did not even understand that question. It was really long and... [00:39:37] Speaker 3: My question? Yeah. If what you testified to is, if what you say occurred earlier that night is actually true, if it actually happened, it would be a very simple response to Detective Doty's question. Tell us what you know about Joe. It just happened. It was the freshest thing in your mind. Is that just a compound question? Well, I would draw it. Wasn't that the freshest thing in your mind about what had taken place at Joe's house? That he'd just given you ketamine that night? [00:40:05] Mr. Spencer: No, the freshest thing in my mind was a bunch of cops in ski masks with guns breaking the door down. And me sitting in handcuffs for, like, multiple hours. That was what was fresh on my mind. [00:40:19] Speaker 3: Is that the reason you're telling the jury why you didn't tell Detective Doty that Joe had delivered ketamine to you that night or Joe had possessed ketamine that night? [00:40:26] Mr. Spencer: I don't know what you're trying to ask right now. [00:40:30] Speaker 3: You're saying that the reason is that you had... Is it because of the stress of the moment that you didn't tell Detective Doty the most recent drug event that you claim occurred at the house? Was the delivery of ketamine to you, the stress of the moment, is that what you want the jury to believe? [00:40:49] Mr. Spencer: I'm saying, I already told you, they asked me, what do you know about Joe? And I listed off the different drugs that I had seen at his house. I told them what goes on at his house. [00:41:10] Speaker 3: What do you know about Joe? In response to that question, you didn't say to Detective Doty. In response to the question, what do you know about Joe? Tell us what you know about Joe. [00:41:19] Mr. Spencer: I don't remember exactly how the conversation went. Like I said earlier, I don't remember conversations. Mr. Spencer? I didn't remember every little thing that was said, every little detail. [00:41:30] Speaker 3: A lot happened that night. Do you agree with me that in that bathroom, in response to those questions, you didn't tell Detective Doty that Joe gave you ketamine that night? Yes or no? It's a simple yes or no question. [00:41:44] Mr. Spencer: I believe I didn't tell Detective Doty. [00:41:46] Speaker 3: And you didn't tell Detective Doty that night? That Joe invited you to his bedroom to use ketamine? Or that Joe had used ketamine with you? I believe I did not say that that night. And you didn't tell that to Detective Doty at that time because that was the truth. That was the truth, right? He didn't give you ketamine. He didn't deliver ketamine to you. That night, right? [00:42:07] Mr. Spencer: Well, I don't believe they asked specifics on whether or not he had given me ketamine. They were asking me to say what I know about Joe. So I explained that I had seen multiple different drugs there on different occasions. And that's what I explained. And they didn't go into, like, any specifics. All they said, all Doty told me was, we'll be talking to you soon. And then they put me back out there in the handcuffs. They weren't talking to me for that long. [00:42:36] Speaker 3: Let me put the question to you one more time. If you don't want to answer it, you don't answer it. [00:42:39] Mr. Spencer: I think I just explained anything that you're going to ask me right now, seriously, with that last answer. I'm sorry? The answer. [00:42:46] Speaker 3: Okay. So you used marijuana that night by your own admission, right? [00:42:53] Mr. Spencer: Correct. [00:42:53] Speaker 3: You used ketamine, you claimed, that night, right? [00:42:56] Mr. Spencer: By my own admission, I'm sorry. By my own admission, do you mean, like, did I provide it for myself? [00:43:02] Speaker 3: Well, you used marijuana, is all I said. [00:43:04] Mr. Spencer: Yes, yes. [00:43:05] Speaker 3: And you're saying, by your own admission, you're saying you used ketamine that night. [00:43:08] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:43:10] Speaker 3: And within a few hours of using marijuana and ketamine, you drove yourself home? [00:43:17] Mr. Spencer: No, I did not. Because there were several hours after doing the ketamine that I had time to not be high anymore. And Joe also wouldn't let people leave if they were on drugs or drinking. I had more than enough time to come down from the ketamine high. And I had been smoking marijuana. And I was planning on staying until the morning until I was completely sober to drive home. And then the cops broke in. And then I was sitting in handcuffs for a solid three-plus hours while they were tearing the place apart. I had more than enough time to sober up. [00:43:59] Speaker 3: So you're saying you knew you were sober. [00:44:00] Mr. Spencer: And yes, I did drive myself home after it was all said and done. And I could leave. Yes, I did drive myself home. But I knew that I was not inebriated at that time because it had been several hours since I had consumed drugs by that time. [00:44:16] Speaker 3: Mr. Spencer, you seem to have very, your memory about that and your assertion. Yeah, because I wasn't on drugs anymore. Let me just finish it. That's why I remember it clearly. You remember it, you weren't on drugs anymore that night? [00:44:27] Mr. Spencer: That's why you remember it? That morning when I was sober enough to drive home, I was not on drugs anymore. So I started to remember things more clearly as it turned into the morning, as the sun came up. [00:44:42] Speaker 3: So you made your self-assessment that you were okay to drive home because you believe you were no longer intoxicated or inebriated or whatever you refer to it as? [00:44:50] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:44:52] Speaker 3: So your memory of what had taken place got better at that point, you said? [00:45:00] Mr. Spencer: My recollection of what was happening around me was much stronger as time progressed on. I started to remember what was going on at that specific moment. I didn't magically get powers to remember things from the past. When I was on drugs in the past, it was harder to remember those things. A lot of those memories of things that happened at his house blended together also because I was so messed up sometimes that I was there. That's why I went there, like I said. [00:45:27] Speaker 3: And when you agreed to testify at the preliminary examination, it was your belief that if you cooperated and testified that you weren't going to be charged in the case. Isn't that true? [00:45:39] Mr. Spencer: Yes, that's true. [00:45:42] Speaker 3: And despite whatever it is that you did, you believed at that time that you'll end up with no criminal prosecution and no criminal record. Isn't that true? [00:45:51] Mr. Spencer: That's what I was told. [00:45:53] Speaker 3: And who told you that? Ms. Hand. Seated to my right and to your left. And despite whatever it is that you did, you'll end up with no criminal prosecution and no criminal record. That's what you're testifying to. [00:46:08] Mr. Spencer: Well, I was told, I was That's what you're just testified to. I was granted use immunity, I believe the term is. [00:46:14] Speaker 3: And you just testified a moment ago that you were told that you wouldn't, you'd end up with no criminal prosecution and no criminal record. Right? Right? [00:46:25] Mr. Spencer: Well, no prosecution for the possession of prescription pills. [00:46:30] Speaker 3: So that's more than use immunity. Use immunity means, doesn't it, as far as you know, that you just get to, your words can't be used against you. But you're telling us that you actually have an understanding that you're not going to be prosecuted at all for your felonies. Right? Isn't that in part why you're in here saying the things you are about Joe? So do you avoid felony prosecution and felony conviction yourself? Correct. So, you're a young person, you're 20 years old, you said? Yes? [00:47:09] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:47:09] Speaker 3: You want to have a career and a future, right? Yes. You want to have a, you have a lot to lose. Would you agree with that? [00:47:16] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:47:17] Speaker 3: And your participation or involvement in some kind of crime could interfere with that. Would you agree with that? [00:47:24] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:47:25] Speaker 3: And so, the, um, you understood that, um, based upon what you were being told, that if you talked about Joe, you'd be able to avoid being in trouble. Right? [00:47:43] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:47:46] Speaker 3: One year ago, well, so not one year ago, this was back in, uh, February 15th of 2017 is when this, uh, uh, search of Joe's house took place, correct? [00:47:59] Mr. Spencer: Correct. [00:48:01] Speaker 3: Today is January 18th, or 19th, 19th, 19th, Your Honor? 19th. Thank you. In that time, you have not been charged, have you? [00:48:14] Mr. Spencer: No, I have not. [00:48:16] Speaker 3: Um, and there are things that you, you have, uh, you did go down and talk to the police on March 1st of last year, correct? [00:48:24] Mr. Spencer: I'm not sure the exact day, but, yeah, it was around that time. [00:48:29] Speaker 3: You got a record deal the day before that, didn't you? [00:48:33] Mr. Spencer: Pardon me? [00:48:34] Speaker 3: Didn't you get a record deal? Didn't you get a... [00:48:36] Speaker 4: That makes it sound like he's a singer. [00:48:38] Speaker 3: No, no, no. Well, aren't you a performer, a DJ? [00:48:41] Mr. Spencer: What does this have to do with... [00:48:43] Speaker 3: Well, let, we'll let the jury sort that out. [00:48:45] Mr. Spencer: Are you talking about this case? [00:48:45] Speaker 3: Yes, I am. Is it... Yes. February 28th of 2017, the day before you went down to the police department to talk about Joe. Didn't you get a record deal? [00:48:55] Speaker 4: Oh, you do mean, like, singing? [00:48:57] Speaker 3: I think a DJ. [00:48:58] Speaker 4: Oh, I think you meant... Okay, all right. [00:49:00] Speaker 3: Didn't you get a record deal? Didn't you get a contract by a company that signed you? Didn't you... Something you were proud of? [00:49:05] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:49:09] Mr. Spencer: I'm confused as to why you're asking me this and why you're asking me to disclose personal information. [00:49:16] Speaker 4: He's trying to ask you if you have a lot to do. [00:49:18] Speaker 3: So on February 28th, before you went and you talked to the police, you got a record deal. You got a professional music contract. That was something you coveted that you were proud of. [00:49:28] Mr. Spencer: Yeah. [00:49:29] Speaker 3: You understood that a criminal case and a criminal prosecution could interfere with that, didn't you? [00:49:34] Mr. Spencer: Yes. [00:49:35] Speaker 3: So the very next day, March 1st, that's when you went down and you talked to the police at the police station about Joe, right? So, other than having to testify, you really haven't experienced, suffered any consequences for your actions, have you? [00:50:01] Mr. Spencer: Several hours of stress and pain and phone calls and having to show up and questions and strenuous hours