JUST IN: Nick Shirley And James O'Keefe Testify Before The Senate Homeland Security Committee

[0:00] The committee will come to order. [1:03] In my office, I keep a clock that measures our national debt in real time. [1:08] This morning, that clock stood at nearly $40 trillion. [1:12] Washington taxes the American people. [1:14] Washington borrows against our grandchildren's future earnings. [1:18] Then Washington sends billions of dollars out the door, [1:21] often without knowing who receives it, if any service was performed, or even if the business exists. [1:28] The federal government loses hundreds of billions of dollars to fraud every year. [1:33] And when the money disappears, politicians act surprised. [1:36] No private business would survive this way. [1:39] A bank confirms an account exists before wiring the money. [1:43] A credit card company flags suspicious changes in seconds. [1:47] An insurance company verifies that the patient exists and the treatment occurred before paying a claim. [1:54] They verify first because it is their money that's online. [1:58] When the money belongs to the taxpayer, Washington pays first and asks questions later if it asks them at all. [2:05] Our first witness, Nick Shirley, decided to see for himself. [2:08] In Minneapolis, he visited supposed daycare centers that had collected millions of dollars from taxpayers. [2:14] He found industrial buildings with blacked-out windows, no playgrounds, no children, no employees, no one answering the door. [2:22] These were not complicated accounting irregularities buried deep inside a federal database. [2:27] The question was obvious. [2:28] What exactly are taxpayers paying for? [2:30] Mr. Shirley found the same warning signs at autism centers, home health companies, and other providers collecting large government reimbursements. [2:39] In California, he found hospice and health care companies stacked into single office complexes. [2:44] Some marked by nothing more than a sheet of printer paper taped to a door. [2:48] Many couldn't answer the basic questions about their own patients. [2:51] A private insurer would have stopped payment immediately. [2:55] The federal government kept writing the checks. [2:57] Prosecutors have now charged 15 people in Minnesota with schemes involving more than $90 million. [3:03] One autism services scheme alone, $46.6 million in fraud. [3:09] The Justice Department calls it the largest Medicaid autism fraud case in its history. [3:15] Prosecution is necessary, but it comes after the money is gone. [3:20] The fraudsters have already been paid. [3:22] The families who needed care have already been cheated. [3:25] Taxpayers may only recover pennies on the dollar. [3:28] Government should verify before it pays. [3:32] Does the provider exist? [3:33] Are real people performing real work? [3:35] Are the patients eligible? [3:37] Were the services necessary? [3:39] Are the invoices honest? [3:41] These are not radical demands. [3:43] It is what hardworking American taxpayers deserve. [3:45] When government refuses to verify, it does not merely endanger taxpayer dollars, it destroys public confidence in our elections. [3:53] In California, James O'Keefe revealed a cash-for-ballots election fraud scheme targeting homeless men and women who were offered cash, cigarettes, and marijuana in exchange for signatures on petitions and voter registration forms. [4:06] So far, one individual exposed to Mr. O'Keefe's undercover video footage pled guilty to federal charges. [4:13] Mr. Shirley followed the money. [4:14] Mr. O'Keefe followed the signatures. [4:17] Both found the same machine, a system that rewards volume, discourages scrutiny, and depends upon someone in authority looking the other way. [4:26] In one system, government counts the claims and sends the money without asking who received it or what work was performed. [4:34] In the other, officials accept registrations without asking who signed them or whether the process was legitimate. [4:42] Whether Washington is distributing taxpayer dollars or safeguarding the ballot, government processes first and investigates later. [4:50] Then, years after the damage is done, announces an indictment and expects applause. [4:54] Fraud is not an ordinary cost to government. [4:57] It is theft, theft of taxpayers' earnings, theft of needed services, and theft of the legitimate vote. [5:05] Our witnesses went where government investigators had not gone and asked the questions the bureaucracy refused to ask. [5:13] I thank them for their relentless commitment to exposing fraud and demanding accountability. [5:18] The American people deserve better from their government, including Congress, who keeps writing the checks. [5:24] Senator Peters. [5:26] Thank you, Chairman Paul. [5:31] The government has a responsibility to ensure that taxpayer dollars are used efficiently, effectively, and responsibly. [5:40] And when there is evidence of waste, fraud, and abuse in taxpayer-funded programs, the government must take action to recover the cost and hold wrongdoers accountable. [5:51] My time serving in this committee, I've been proud to work across the aisle with many of my colleagues to improve oversight of taxpayer dollars and fight fraud. [6:01] I worked with Senator Ernst and Senator Hassan to pass bipartisan legislation to prevent conflicts of interest in federal contracts, after learning that a company was being paid with tax dollars to advise the government on oversight of the pharmaceutical industry, while simultaneously being paid by pharma companies to help market their drugs. [6:22] We passed a bill to make sure that taxpayer dollars are being paid with tax dollars, and to make sure that taxpayer dollars are being used in Americans' best interest. [6:29] I worked with Senator Kennedy to pass a bipartisan bill to improve government data access, which will save millions of taxpayer dollars by preventing improper payments to deceased people. [6:42] I worked with Senator Carper and Senator McCaskill to block scams that were hurting small businesses by fraudulently selling services to secure government contracts, services that the government already provides to small businesses for free. [6:57] And when Congress was responding to the unprecedented COVID-19 pandemic with significant emergency spending, I worked with Senator Johnson to establish the Pandemic Response Accountability Committee. [7:09] We fought to ensure that there were strong oversight mechanisms, including alongside those resources, because we knew that bad actors would try to take advantage of the situation. [7:20] To date, the PRAC has supported more than 50 investigative partners and over 1,200 investigations, and has identified $2.5 billion in potential fraud that the government is now continuing to try to recover. [7:34] In fact, the PRAC model has been so successful that, Chairman Paul, you worked to expand its oversight responsibilities as part of the big, beautiful bill. [7:44] It is an unfortunate reality that there is always the risk of fraud in government programs, which is why we need strong controls. [7:52] A strong oversight of government spending to ensure taxpayer dollars are going to help the American people and not the fraudsters. [7:59] Our federal government had more of these strong oversight mechanisms up until last year, when President Trump fired 19 independent inspector generals in violation of the law. [8:13] He removed experienced independent investigators with a strong record of identifying waste and fraud and replaced them with cronies. [8:22] It's hard to overstate the damage that has been done to independent oversight. [8:26] Many of the watchdogs we count on to identify wrongdoings are now fearful that they will be fired or retaliated against just for doing their job. [8:36] On top of that, President Trump created DOGE and let inexperienced staffers, led by Elon Musk, make arbitrary cuts across the federal government. [8:45] DOGE was supposed to save a trillion dollars. [8:48] Instead, their reckless cuts caused chaos and may have actually cost taxpayers more in the long run, as the administration had to rehire workers and reinstate contracts that they canceled. [9:00] Mr. Chairman, I ask you to have his consent to enter into the record a report that I released last May. [9:05] Without objection. [9:07] Thank you. [9:07] This report, which found that the federal government could have saved taxpayers more than $175 billion by implementing recommendations from the 19 independent inspector generals that President Trump fired unlawfully. [9:23] Far more money than DOGE ever delivered. [9:26] President Trump is also proposing a new scheme to control federal grant dollars that will allow him to direct taxpayer dollars to political allies and punish partisan enemies, all while undermining independent oversight. [9:41] Not only have President Trump's actions created an environment where fraud can thrive, but incredibly, he has also pardoned multiple convicted fraudsters who have combined have committed billions of dollars worth of fraud pardoned by President Trump. [9:59] These pardons wiped out an estimated $1.3 billion in restitution and have frequently gone to wealthy and well-connected individuals. [10:07] It sends a signal that you have money or the president's favor. [10:12] You can commit fraud without consequence. [10:16] And finally, if we're going to talk about fraud, waste, and abuse, we must also talk about how President Trump has abused his public office to enrich himself and his family, not improve the everyday lives of Americans who are protect taxpayer dollars. [10:31] Since taking office in 2025, President Trump and his family has made an estimated $2 billion from cryptocurrency alone. [10:39] And if this committee is serious about tackling fraud, I hope we could work together to hold the administration accountable for the ways in which they have undercut independent oversight and fulfill our own role to conduct oversight of the administration's actions that have unquestionably enabled fraud. [10:57] We need to restore the strong, experienced, independent watchdogs who have a proven track record of fighting fraud and getting money back for the American people, rather than amplifying sensationalized social media that takes them more focused on getting views than on actually getting the truth. [11:17] Mr. Chairman, we share the goal of saving taxpayer dollars and making our government more efficient. [11:21] And when you're ready to bring in federal officials to testify, conduct oversight, and advance additional legislation to crack down on fraud, my colleagues and I are ready to do the work. [11:32] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [11:35] It is the practice of this committee to swear in witnesses. [11:38] Will each of you please stand and raise your right hand? [11:44] Do you swear that the testimony you will give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? [11:50] So help you, God. [11:52] Thank you. [11:53] You may be seated. [11:56] Our first witness will be Nick Shirley. [11:59] He is an independent journalist known for his on-the-ground investigations, which he publishes on his social media pages and the Anti-Fraud Club website. [12:08] Mr. Shirley. [12:11] My name is Nick Shirley. [12:12] I'm a 100% independent journalist who seeks each day to serve we, the people of the United States, with a mission to show the world the reality of things as they really are. [12:21] America was built and created by strong men and women who loved America and never would have thought to rob, steal, or cheat from its very own citizens. [12:29] Unfortunately, today, America's good faith has been abused by others, often foreigners, who seek to harm, rob, and cheat America. [12:36] Through my efforts, I've exposed billions of dollars of fraud and helped save America hundreds of billions for years to come. [12:43] When we talk about fraud, we are talking about money that is being stolen from hardworking, law-abiding, tax-paying citizens. [12:50] This issue has nothing to do with political parties. [12:54] No dollar says Republican or Democrat on it. [12:57] When a fraudster commits fraud, he or she steals from all of us. [13:01] Last December, I published a 43-minute-long video exposing widespread fraud in Minnesota. [13:08] That video became one of the most viewed videos in Internet history and gained over 4 billion views in just seven days across all forms of media. [13:16] The fraud was so obvious that the fraudsters weren't even trying to hide it. [13:20] The infamous Quality Leering Center was born, and that video has become one of the most consequential videos in America's history by the amount of legislation it has created. [13:29] Since posting it, over 30 bills have been created and introduced in Congress regarding fraud. [13:34] A new fraud task force has been created, and the Treasury is working on new systems to stop fraud at unprecedented levels. [13:41] I helped ignite a war on fraud across the country. [13:44] People often wonder, how come this fraud became so big, and how come it became so rampant? [13:49] And the reason is because no one actually ever really looked into it. [13:53] When Elon Musk offered to help by creating Doge, people burned his factories, bombed his cars, and politicians even celebrated his company's stock going down. [14:01] Elon was right when he said the fraudsters complained the loudest. [14:05] By exposing the fraud, I actually also exposed the politicians and media who worked for years to cover it up. [14:12] Governor Tim Walts labeled my work as white supremacy and called me a far-right, delusional conspiracy theorist. [14:18] Meanwhile, he dropped out of re-election, and he even said he has ended his political career. [14:23] Now, the highest government-funded daycare in Minnesota has pleaded guilty to daycare fraud, [14:27] and the largest autism bust in America's history has been exposed. [14:31] Where is Tim Walts in the media now? [14:33] It just so happens that over 80% of the fraud committed in Minnesota is by the Somali population. [14:38] After Minnesota, I exposed widespread fraud in California within the daycare and hospice community, [14:44] where an impossible one-third of Americans on hospice care were set to die in Los Angeles. [14:49] The next day, the governor, Gavin Newsom, posted an AI-generate image of myself trying to mock and discredit my work. [14:56] Only days later, he and his attorney general both try to take credit for exposing the fraud. [15:02] Now, the attorney general's wife has created a bill that would make it criminal to expose fraud. [15:07] The Stop Nick Shirley Act, also known as AB 2624, will help fraudsters cover up their crimes [15:13] and prevent themselves from being exposed specifically in immigrant communities. [15:17] Politicians often use immigrant communities to commit fraud. [15:22] Why would they allow this to happen? [15:25] In California, Medi-Cal, their Medicaid program, has now more than doubled from $108 billion in 2022 [15:32] to a proposed $222 billion, while enrollment has only rose by less than 1%. [15:39] The system is filled with bad actors and fraudsters. [15:44] In New York City, government-funded adult daycares pay for elderly Koreans and Chinese to play ping-pong [15:50] and do tai chi at the taxpayers' expense. [15:54] An impossible number of patients are registered, [15:57] and those patients receive kickbacks for attending and signing up their friends. [16:01] Over $2 billion has gone to these fraudsters at the taxpayers' expense. [16:07] And I am just one person doing the work of many people. [16:09] If the government and media is not going to do their job to help America, [16:13] it's the responsibility of strong men and women, however old they may be, to do it. [16:18] I am doing it. [16:19] Despite the threats and burdens that come, it must be done. [16:22] I am doing it with the help of everyday Americans that government-paid officials are supposed to do. [16:30] And the media teams across the country have millions of dollars to do this, [16:34] yet they don't look into this fraud. [16:37] They've actually quite literally failed us. [16:39] If we as Americans do not stand up to protect our country, we will lose our country. [16:44] Fraud is so rampant in the United States, I could go to all 50 states [16:47] and uncover millions of dollars of tax dollars being defrauded, wasted, and abused. [16:53] It is my wish while sitting in front of you guys today that you take action, [16:56] help Americans by cracking down on all the fraud, and to simply put Americans first. [17:03] Thank you. [17:06] Our next witness is James O'Keefe. [17:09] He's an American investigative journalist and media entrepreneur. [17:12] He's the founder of Project Veritas, and currently serves as the founder and CEO of O'Keefe Media Group. [17:19] Mr. O'Keefe. [17:21] Chairman Paul, Ranking Member Peters, and members of this committee, [17:24] thank you for the opportunity to testify. [17:26] In February of 2026, I disguised myself as a homeless person [17:30] and approached a petition circulator on Skid Row near San Pedro and South 6th Street in downtown L.A. [17:36] I saw Cash clipped to his shirt, which I thought was odd. [17:39] The petition circulator told me, we're going to need 14 signatures, and we're going to pay you $2. [17:45] One of our reporters, disguised as a heroin addict with track marks on his arm, asked the homeless, [17:50] what's going on here? [17:51] They all replied with one word, money. [17:54] We recorded a woman named Brown handing over cash as payment in exchange for a homeless person [17:58] to register to vote in a federal election. [18:00] Now, that is a federal crime. [18:03] Congress expressly criminalizes payments to people to register to vote. [18:07] Why? [18:07] Because the vote is sacred. [18:09] It's an act of conscience, of judgment. [18:12] And when it becomes contaminated by incentives, when it is for sale, [18:15] it undermines the sanctity and fairness of the process designed to elect those who represent us. [18:19] Our investigation contributed to a federal criminal prosecution, [18:22] with U.S. Attorney Bill Esselia saying, once I saw these videos, I went to work. [18:26] Brown described the whole thing as a, quote, pyramid game. [18:31] And then came the irony. [18:32] In a neighborhood of NGOs in Los Angeles, designed to protect the vulnerable homeless population, [18:38] the person being confronted by the NGOs was not the fraudster. [18:41] It was the reporter exposing the fraud. [18:43] Just minutes after we exposed these felonies, [18:46] I was approached by a man who identified himself as being with the LAPD, [18:49] and he began to record me. [18:51] When I pressed him, he admitted he was actually with the L.A. Homelessness Authority. [18:55] Under California law, that's a crime. [18:57] So this was also a form of fraud, albeit covering up for the fraud happening across the street. [19:02] But it got worse. [19:03] We witnessed petition circulators giving marijuana in exchange for signatures on the petitions. [19:07] And when they spotted our camera, they told one of our reporters, [19:10] I'm going to knock your bleeping ass, don't come over here again, I'm going to beat your ass. [19:14] He threatened us. [19:15] So we decided to band together. [19:17] We formed a Citizen Journalism Justice League, [19:20] featuring Savannah Hernandez, Cam Higby, Anthony Rubin, and John Trow. [19:23] And over the next few weeks, we caught dozens of these cash and drug exchanges [19:27] for signatures on the petitions. [19:29] Together, over the course of those next few weeks, [19:32] we released reporting that prompted the governor of California not to attack us, [19:36] but to say that what we did was important, [19:39] and the activity should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. [19:42] We also found next ballot petitioners asking homeless to sign in other people's names. [19:47] We recorded over the shoulder one petitioner who took out his phone [19:51] to access an online database to pull voter rolls and addresses. [19:55] Quote, I have an Idaho address, said the voter. [19:57] The petitioner says, I'm going to give you an address to write. [20:00] Your name is Robert. [20:02] Another says, I'm giving you a new name. [20:04] So he visited the residence of those people who are disenfranchised. [20:08] One of the names was Vicki Walker. [20:10] The homeowner at that address said, [20:12] for nine years, he received election mail in the name of this Vicki Walker. [20:15] In fact, he told me he'd received so many ballots in the name of Vicki Walker, [20:19] he named his cat Vicki Walker. [20:22] We returned to ask for comment from the petitioner who was offering drugs in exchange for signatures. [20:26] The same individual who had threatened us earlier, [20:28] he grabbed the petitions and hid them in his car. [20:32] When we caught up to him, one of his associates charged at us [20:35] and punched my producer in the neck. [20:38] The two men then charged at me. [20:40] And right before they struck us, Cam Higby deployed pepper spray. [20:43] With pepper spray in their eyes, the two men continued to attempt to assail us. [20:48] My colleague Brayden and I had no choice but to run for our lives. [20:52] To this day, all the fraudsters that committed state crimes roam free. [20:57] This, as Nick has said, is not a political issue. [21:01] It's not a partisan issue. [21:03] It's not a conspiracy theory. [21:04] And it is most certainly not circumstantial evidence. [21:07] Everything I've testified to you here, all the quotes and many more, [21:11] are all recorded on tape. [21:13] So the question before this committee is not whether the fraud exists [21:17] or whether it's happening. [21:18] Oftentimes, in politics, you all debate the facts. [21:22] The facts are what they are. [21:23] The question is why the incentives allow it to flourish. [21:27] There is money in fraud, but there's no money in exposing the fraud. [21:32] And when laws are ignored without consequences, [21:36] fraud becomes the incentive. [21:39] Fraud becomes the model of life. [21:42] Tony Moore, one of the coordinators for the ballot petitions, [21:44] told us if there's no consequences, it doesn't matter. [21:47] And that's the point. [21:48] I don't have subpoena power. [21:50] Us journalists don't have the power to do anything but expose. [21:52] They campaign in this building about freedom and protecting democracy [21:56] and preventing disenfranchisement and how nobody is above the law. [21:59] But if those principles are not enforced, [22:01] when they are violated in broad daylight, [22:03] they're not principles at all. [22:05] They're slogans. [22:07] And without accountability, [22:09] our notion of freedom is just an illusion. [22:13] Thank you. [22:14] Senator Peters will introduce our third witness. [22:21] Mr. Dillon Hedler-Gadet is the acting vice president of policy and government affairs [22:27] at the Project on Government Oversight, commonly known as POGO. [22:32] Mr. Hedler-Gadet is a nationally recognized expert [22:35] in a range of good government issues, including government ethics, [22:38] anti-corruption policy, separation of powers, the rule of law, [22:42] and government operations integrity and effectiveness. [22:46] He has testified before Congress on eight separate occasions on a variety of topics, [22:50] including preventing waste and fraud, defense spending accountability, [22:54] judicial ethics, and undue foreign influence. [22:59] Mr. Hedler-Gadet and POGO have routinely engaged with Congress [23:03] on bipartisan and pragmatic solutions [23:05] to address government program integrity [23:07] and protect taxpayer dollars. [23:10] Thank you for joining us today, [23:11] and we appreciate your testimony. [23:18] Chairman Paul, ranking member Peters, [23:20] and members of the committee, [23:21] thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. [23:25] My name is Dillon Hedler-Gadet, [23:26] and I am the acting vice president of policy and government affairs [23:29] at the Project on Government Oversight. [23:31] We are a nonpartisan, independent watchdog organization [23:33] with 45 years of experience in promoting accountability, [23:37] transparency, and effectiveness in the federal government. [23:42] If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to start with some data [23:44] to paint a bit of a picture for us. [23:47] We currently spend about $7 trillion a year [23:50] in terms of our federal budget. [23:52] In fiscal year 2025, [23:53] we ran a $1.8 trillion federal budget deficit. [23:58] We currently carry a federal debt load of about $40 trillion, [24:02] and payments on that, I'm sorry, interest payments on that debt [24:06] are the third largest annual expenditure we make each year. [24:09] The fourth largest of which is our defense budget, [24:12] which now comes in at a cool $1 trillion, [24:14] and if President Trump has his way, [24:16] that number will balloon to a staggering $1.5 trillion this year. [24:21] Why do I start with this big picture data? [24:25] It's important to realize that vast sums of taxpayer dollars [24:27] are at stake when we talk about the issues of waste, fraud, and abuse. [24:31] It's equally important to remember that the federal government [24:33] has an equally vast responsibility and an obligation [24:36] to be the best possible and most responsible caretaker [24:38] and steward of those taxpayer dollars. [24:41] We have more data that can tell us a little bit [24:45] about how well the federal government [24:46] is delivering on that responsibility. [24:50] Recently, the Government Accountability Office [24:51] issued a report in which it estimated [24:54] that in fiscal year 2025, [24:55] the federal government issued $186 billion [24:57] in improper payments, [24:59] bringing the total of improper payments issued [25:01] since fiscal year 2003 [25:03] to $3 trillion or thereabouts. [25:08] GAO also estimated that in 2024 alone, [25:11] we lost somewhere between $230 and $520 billion to fraud. [25:15] Lastly, GAO tells us and projects [25:19] that if we were to work harder [25:21] to eradicate duplication, fragmentation, [25:23] and overlap in federal government programs, [25:26] we would be able to save $100 billion a year. [25:30] Now, what does this data tell us? [25:32] This tells us pretty categorically [25:34] that we, and in particular the federal government, [25:36] are not doing a good enough job [25:38] overseeing and managing the country's precious public resources. [25:42] And the only way to get there [25:44] is to promote actionable, common sense, [25:47] pragmatic reforms, [25:47] and it is those exact kinds of reforms [25:49] that I'm here to talk about today. [25:52] First, we must look to internal watchdogs [25:54] and oversight practitioners, [25:56] such as Inspector General, [25:58] the Government Accountability Office, [25:59] the Office of Government Ethics, [26:00] the Office of Special Counsel, and others. [26:02] And we must strengthen, empower, [26:06] and fully resource them [26:07] to perform their essential functions [26:08] as the taxpayers' eyes and ears [26:10] from within the federal government. [26:13] Second, we must also provide safe and secure reporting [26:17] and disclosure channels for federal whistleblowers. [26:20] Courageous individuals from within the government [26:22] often blow the whistle [26:23] and expose some of the worst waste, [26:24] fraud, abuse, corruption, and malfeasance, [26:26] and they are often all too common [26:28] on the receiving end of reprisal [26:30] and retaliation for doing so. [26:32] It is imperative that Congress [26:33] create these safe and secure disclosure channels [26:36] while also strengthening protection [26:37] from retaliation and reprisal [26:38] for federal whistleblowers. [26:41] Lastly, the technical architecture [26:43] that the federal government currently uses [26:44] to monitor, track, analyze, [26:46] and assess federal funding [26:47] is woefully inadequate. [26:50] Key databases and resources [26:51] like usaspending.gov [26:52] and the system for award management [26:53] are in desperate need [26:54] of overhaul and modernization. [26:57] Congress should start by dramatically expanding [26:59] the quality and quantity of the data [27:01] and information required to be reported [27:03] and collected up and down the spending chain. [27:06] Congress should also work to bring parity [27:08] in data collection and information reporting [27:11] across program categories and spending types. [27:14] Lastly, Congress should also hold [27:16] federal agencies' feet to the fire [27:17] to comply with existing reporting [27:19] and disclosure requirements, [27:20] which agencies are often not doing at all. [27:24] The upshot here is that waste, fraud, [27:26] abuse, and corruption are real [27:28] and they are pernicious [27:29] and we must do something about them. [27:32] The only way we're going to solve them [27:33] is by some of the reforms [27:34] and others that I have laid out here today, [27:36] but we're not going to solve them [27:38] by focusing on sensationalistic anecdotes, [27:41] clout-chasing viral internet videos, [27:43] or provocative pseudo-documentaries. [27:45] We're also not going to solve these problems [27:47] by demonizing and scapegoating [27:49] specific communities and constituencies [27:50] based on partisan, political, and ideological agendas. [27:55] Thank you again for inviting me here to testify today [27:56] and I look forward to your questions. [27:59] We're going to begin a round of questions [28:00] and I'm going to defer my time to Senator Johnson. [28:03] Hey, Mr. Chairman. [28:05] So we've had in testimony and opening statements [28:08] a couple jabs, I guess, at Nick Shirley's videos. [28:11] The only reason that we're taking fraud seriously [28:15] is because of that independent journalism [28:17] sitting in front of us. [28:19] The fact that he exposed in all its gory detail [28:23] how grotesque and how blatant this fraud is, [28:27] how rampant it is. [28:29] So, you know, Mr. Hitler-Gaudet, [28:32] listen, I agree with most of your prescriptions here. [28:35] Chairman of the committee, we had you testify. [28:37] I've been trying to support inspector generals. [28:40] Now, we've had to, got a couple of inspector generals [28:43] resigning ahead of the posse [28:44] because they're certainly not perfect as well. [28:47] But the problem I have with all the prescriptions [28:48] is it hasn't worked. [28:53] The lowest estimate I hear of fraud [28:55] in federal government is $250 billion a year. [28:57] I think you said $230 billion. [28:59] We had in the subcommittee hearing Lexis Nexis [29:02] saying it's a trillion dollars. [29:05] It wasn't really until this administration with Doge, [29:08] which is, you know, that effort's also been denigrated here, [29:11] that we started going in there [29:12] and actually doing something about it. [29:14] Now, you have Dr. Oz going in, again, [29:16] I think partly because of Nick Shirley's revelation [29:19] that a third of the hospice centers were in America, [29:23] were in Los Angeles County. [29:27] So the way we prevent the fraud [29:28] is we stopped funding 400 of them [29:30] and not one of those hospice centers complained. [29:36] So it's the tip of the iceberg. [29:37] Mr. Shirley, again, I commend you [29:39] on your phenomenal journalism. [29:41] I'm, you know, quite honestly, [29:43] when I saw that happening, [29:44] I go, why didn't I think of that? [29:45] You know, why didn't my staff do those videos? [29:48] Journalism is crucial to this. [29:51] You're a partner in what we need to do. [29:54] And it's only because of those videos [29:56] that expose it that we have any chance [29:59] of trying to reign in this beast. [30:02] But you mentioned the Stop Nick Shirley Act. [30:07] What is that? [30:08] I mean, can you describe that in greater detail? [30:10] Yeah, so that's a bill that's been created [30:12] by Mia Bonta, the wife of the Attorney General [30:15] of California. [30:18] And the official title is AB 2624. [30:20] And it's to provide, make it essentially illegal [30:24] to expose and to film outside [30:26] of immigration support service providers. [30:28] That means any entity that provides services [30:32] to illegal migrants, [30:34] whether that be healthcare or legal fees. [30:35] If I were to go out and film a video [30:37] in front of one of these locations, [30:40] perhaps an NGO like CHURLA [30:41] that's received over $80 million [30:43] from the government, [30:44] and they give me a piece of paper, [30:47] and they say, hey, you cannot publish that video. [30:49] If that bill passes, [30:51] it'll be illegal for me to document that. [30:52] So it really ought to be renamed [30:54] the Protect Medicating Fraudster Act. [30:58] It would probably be a better description of that, correct? [31:01] Correct. [31:01] Why do you think you have such pushback [31:07] from our colleagues on the other side of the aisle, [31:10] from, you know, just the denigration here [31:12] from the ranking member, from Governor Newsom? [31:15] Why is that? [31:16] You would think that trying to eliminate waste, [31:18] fraud, and abuse [31:19] would be a completely nonpartisan issue. [31:21] Because they, quite frankly, need the fraud. [31:25] They actually need the fraud. [31:27] Mr. Keefe, and I've got a lot more questions, [31:30] but I'm not understanding. [31:33] What were these petitions about? [31:34] You really have two, you were getting, [31:37] they were paying money for signatures on petitions, [31:40] generally pushed forward by non-governmental organizations, [31:43] which, by the way, we don't track how much money is expended. [31:47] Of the $7.5 trillion we spend this year, [31:49] we have no idea how much it funnels eventually through NGOs. [31:53] But, so you have paying dollars for signing petitions, [31:56] and then you also have paying dollars for voter registration. [31:58] Have you kind of followed that through? [32:00] What's that all about? [32:01] Yes, Senator, one is a California state crime [32:05] to fraudulently sign in someone else's name [32:08] to get something on the California ballot initiative, [32:11] and the other is a federal crime, [32:13] or this federal jurisdiction where you pay someone [32:15] in order to get them to register to vote. [32:17] So again, these were petitions to get something, [32:19] a referendum on the ballot in California. [32:20] That's correct. [32:21] So what didn't make sense to me about the registrations [32:24] is they were signing up fake names or fake addresses. [32:26] I would think, you know, [32:27] how if you're going to really commit election fraud, [32:29] you'd sign up legitimate names, legitimate addresses, [32:33] so that you could basically harvest those ballots [32:36] and vote for who you want to vote. [32:38] I mean, have you kind of followed that whole? [32:39] Yes. [32:40] In one instance, we looked over the shoulder, [32:42] and a petitioner logged into a website, [32:45] something called sigvalid.com, [32:47] and accessed currently registered voters [32:49] using their real names and real addresses. [32:52] We were unable to determine or ascertain [32:55] what this sigvalid.com is, [32:57] but we believe that your committee has subpoena power [33:00] to try to find out what that is. [33:01] Well, that'd be my offer. [33:02] Both Chairman Paul and myself have subpoena power. [33:05] If you need it, we're more than happy to use it. [33:09] So I'm making that offer to both Mr. Shirley [33:11] and to you, Mr. O'Keefe. [33:12] We'll follow up with you. [33:13] Thank you. [33:13] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [33:15] Senator Peters. [33:20] Mr. Heather Gadot, [33:21] as you know, President Trump fired 19 inspectors general, [33:26] the independent watchdogs tasked by Congress [33:29] with fighting waste, fraud, and abuse in government programs. [33:34] On May 21, 2025, I issued a report [33:37] that revealed that in fiscal year 24 alone, [33:41] those fired IGs had collectively identified [33:44] over $50 billion of government savings through their work. [33:49] Since then, President Trump has fired additional IGs [33:52] and has cut funding and staff to the oversight agencies, [33:56] some by more than a third. [33:59] So my question for you, sir, [34:00] is do partisan attacks on independent oversight benefit fraudsters? [34:06] Yes, I would say they absolutely benefit fraudsters. [34:09] They politicize the entire endeavor [34:11] of going after waste, fraud, and abuse, [34:13] which is literally the mission statement [34:15] and reason for existence of watchdogs like Inspector General. [34:18] So how can Congress better support and defend independent [34:21] and nonpartisan oversight of government programs, [34:24] in your estimation? [34:26] Sure. [34:26] So I touched on this a little bit in my opening statement [34:29] and in more detail in my written statement, [34:31] but there are a number of pre-existing entities, [34:35] such as Inspector General, [34:36] such as the Government Accountability Office, [34:37] who we don't need to reinvent the wheel there. [34:39] We just need to strengthen, empower, and protect those entities. [34:42] We need to give them the resources they need [34:44] to conduct their important work of oversight. [34:47] And most importantly, [34:48] we need to provide more political insulation and independence [34:51] so that they can do that work without fear or favor [34:54] and without being overly meddled with [34:55] by people with partisan and political agendas, [34:58] because that's anathema to any effective oversight. [35:01] Right. [35:01] Mr. E. L. Gaudet, [35:03] Pogo has raised concerns about both President Biden [35:07] and President Trump's use of presidential pardons. [35:10] This administration has claimed to care about fraud, [35:16] and yet President Trump has pardoned [35:18] a staggering number of convicted fraudsters. [35:22] To date, he has pardoned over two dozen criminals [35:25] who committed a combined nearly $3 billion [35:30] in financial crimes and fraud. [35:33] These pardons also robbed victims [35:35] of approximately $1.3 billion in restitution payments. [35:39] They were given to people like Lawrence Durand, [35:42] who committed $205 million in Medicare fraud, [35:47] and Trevor Milton, [35:48] who committed $680 million in securities fraud. [35:53] Mr. Milton and his wife, not surprisingly, [35:55] donated $2.5 million to the presidential campaign. [35:59] So my question for you, sir, [36:00] is how would you describe pardoning criminal fraudster campaign donors [36:05] as an effort to combat fraud? [36:07] I would describe it as a completely nonsensical approach [36:12] to rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse. [36:14] And again, it undermines any claims one might have [36:17] to caring about waste, fraud, and abuse [36:18] to pardon convicted fraudsters. [36:20] And in the case of one Florida woman, [36:23] a multiply convicted fraudster [36:25] who was convicted once, [36:27] got a commutation in Trump's first term, [36:29] and then was convicted again [36:30] and got a full pardon in the second term. [36:32] So that does not seem to me [36:33] like the action of an entity [36:35] that actually cares about fraud. [36:36] Perhaps it's just fraud when it's perpetrated [36:38] by the right people or the wrong people. [36:41] So what do you think Congress should do [36:42] to rein in the misuse of presidential pardon power? [36:46] This is a tricky one. [36:48] The pardon power is, of course, [36:49] constitutionally prescribed. [36:52] It's pretty stark. [36:54] I have a personal hobby horse view [36:56] that a constitutional amendment [36:58] to remove the pardon power [36:59] should probably be considered [37:01] because it's a vestigial legacy [37:02] of a sort of monarchical view [37:04] of the head of state, [37:05] which is kind of the whole thing [37:06] we're supposed to be against here [37:07] in the United States. [37:08] We don't like kings, [37:09] and so the pardon power [37:10] is very much a kingly, [37:11] a divine right of king sort of concept. [37:13] But barring that, [37:14] I think there are some sort of common sense, [37:17] constitutionally viable approaches [37:18] to more transparencies, consultation, [37:22] reporting and disclosure, [37:23] and a bit of a kind of, [37:24] I think a stronger process [37:25] from within the DOJ's pardon office. [37:29] Thank you. [37:29] You know, I've been proud [37:30] to enact bipartisan legislation [37:32] to improve government data analytics, [37:35] enhance oversight capabilities, [37:38] and prevent payments to dead people. [37:41] However, challenges remain, [37:42] especially as fraudsters [37:43] have become more sophisticated [37:45] and government systems and tools [37:47] have quite frankly, [37:48] just not kept pace. [37:49] In fiscal year 25, [37:50] government agencies estimated [37:51] that $186 billion [37:53] of improper payments were made. [37:57] So my question for you, [37:58] Mr. Heller-Gadette, [37:59] is what practical solutions [38:00] should Congress prioritize [38:02] to prevent improper payments [38:04] and stop fraudulent behavior [38:06] while still protecting critical programs [38:08] that Americans rely on every day? [38:11] Thank you. [38:12] On end, verification is really important. [38:15] I believe Chairman Paul referred to this [38:17] in his opening statement. [38:18] We do not do enough of that. [38:20] But also end-to-end transparency, [38:23] reporting and disclosure [38:24] at every step along the spending [38:26] and funding chain is critically important. [38:27] We also don't do much of that. [38:29] So, you know, [38:30] I don't need to tell you all this [38:31] there in Congress, [38:32] but the appropriations process [38:33] is you all doing your thing [38:34] with the money. [38:35] It goes to federal agencies, [38:36] then federal agencies award it out [38:38] to prime recipients. [38:39] But then those prime recipients [38:40] tend to parcel it out [38:41] and award it out [38:42] to a whole range of different [38:43] sub-awardees and sub-recipients. [38:45] That's where we really lose [38:47] any meaningful insight [38:48] into where the money is going, [38:49] who's ending up with it, [38:50] what is the impact that it's having. [38:51] So if there's one sort of key, [38:54] sort of close to a silver bullet, [38:55] I would recommend [38:56] is getting our hands around [38:57] sub-award reporting [38:58] and transparency [38:59] all the way up and down [39:00] the chain from end-to-end. [39:02] Thank you. [39:03] I think that hits on the point [39:05] is the payments all come in [39:06] from the federal government, [39:07] but the people being signing them up [39:09] are not connected to the payment. [39:10] So they're in the states, [39:12] they're local, [39:13] they want to help people. [39:14] Oh, I want more people. [39:15] Let's help more people. [39:15] And they add all the people to it, [39:16] but they're not paying for it. [39:18] You have to have the same people [39:19] paying for it [39:20] that are signing the people up. [39:21] And until you connect those two people, [39:23] you'll continue to have this problem. [39:24] Senator Lankford. [39:26] Senator Paul, [39:27] thanks for all this hearing as well. [39:29] To all of you and the work that you do [39:30] to help identify fraud and waste, [39:32] thank you for the work on that. [39:34] It's really about sunshine [39:35] and trying to expose this out. [39:37] For nine years, [39:37] I've been releasing [39:38] what my team calls federal fumbles, [39:41] where we just outline [39:42] where areas that we see [39:44] on waste and abuse [39:45] and loss of federal dollars [39:47] over regulation, [39:48] and we throw those out there. [39:50] What's been interesting is [39:51] we've seen the same thing you have. [39:53] When we identify the areas of waste, [39:56] people shrink back away from it [39:57] and say, [39:58] okay, now we're going to try [39:59] to be able to deal with this. [40:00] It is the sunshine [40:00] that really does make a difference. [40:02] And what you're doing [40:03] is bringing things to light on this. [40:05] We've identified things [40:06] like in 2023, [40:08] the State Department [40:09] was funding drag shows in Ecuador. [40:11] The NIH or NEA, I should say, [40:14] was doing a social media game [40:16] to increase physical activity [40:17] in older women [40:19] and creating a social media activity, [40:21] which inherently sit there for that. [40:23] There was a NEA created a production [40:25] of what they call the Fat Pig, [40:27] which was an opera to tell the story [40:29] of a plus-sized woman [40:30] who falls in love with a man [40:32] who has, quote-unquote, [40:33] a normal body. [40:35] We also did an NIH study [40:37] that gave a research grant [40:40] to be able to outline [40:41] the history of tobacco use in Russia. [40:45] We can go on and on and on through this. [40:47] There's multiples that are out there. [40:48] The Biden administration [40:49] did a $250 million study in NIH [40:53] to be able to study [40:54] how to transition mice and monkeys [40:56] into a different sex [40:58] and how to create transgender mice and monkeys. [41:01] All of those, once we exposed them, [41:04] went away. [41:05] All of them. [41:07] So the challenge is [41:08] trying to be able to highlight it, [41:09] but also to be able to find it in advance. [41:12] So I want to run several questions past you, [41:14] and I've got several big issues. [41:16] But surely, [41:16] how are you identifying initially [41:18] what you're actually finding? [41:20] Like, what's the tip that you're saying, [41:21] I think there may be fraud there. [41:23] How are you identifying that? [41:25] Yeah, a lot of it's [41:25] I go and go through these databases [41:27] and look for the largest amount of funding [41:31] and then also looking for the anomalies that come. [41:33] For instance, in New York City, [41:34] at these adult daycares, [41:35] there were 7,899 patients enrolled [41:39] into a daycare, an adult daycare, [41:41] and they received $12.9 million. [41:43] And I go to that daycare, [41:44] there's only one floor, [41:46] and it'd be, quite frankly, [41:48] impossible to enroll that many patients [41:50] into that daycare. [41:51] Yeah, so it's just going through [41:53] the available public data on it. [41:55] Yes, and then also relying upon Americans. [41:57] For instance, I had learned [41:58] about the Minnesota fraud from Minnesotans. [42:00] I went there and they told me, [42:02] hey, finally, you're here to make a video on the fraud. [42:03] I said, well, what are you talking about? [42:04] And they said, well, this fraud's happening, [42:06] this fraud's happening. [42:07] So for the past, [42:08] then after that for six months, [42:09] I looked for that information about the fraud. [42:12] That's great. [42:12] All right, that's very helpful in this. [42:15] Mr. Hadley, I have a question. [42:17] It's a follow-up question on this. [42:18] I'm a big advocate for GAO [42:20] and for Inspector General. [42:21] You and I have talked about that before. [42:23] They're incredibly important to us. [42:26] They are the investigators [42:27] that Congress has hired, [42:29] basically, to be able to put in these different agencies [42:30] and be able to do oversight. [42:32] The problem is, [42:32] they have the same access to data [42:34] that Mr. Shirley has. [42:36] When we get reports back from them, [42:38] they're written very general many times, [42:41] and there's not specifics, [42:42] and we're not really able to highlight [42:43] this kind of information, [42:45] getting the practical information out. [42:46] So the problem is not GAO and the Inspector General. [42:49] It's getting the data [42:50] and the information from them in the rawest form. [42:52] They could have done this same thing [42:54] that Mr. Shirley did, but they didn't. [42:56] What would you suggest [42:57] to help push good folks there [42:59] to be able to take the next step [43:00] and expose what's out there? [43:04] Thank you, Senator Langford. [43:04] And if I might just for one moment, [43:06] I just want to extend my appreciation to you [43:07] for your work for years, [43:09] starting in the House [43:10] on the Taxpayers' Right to Know Act, [43:11] which you know this well, of course, [43:13] but I don't know if everyone in this room does, [43:14] but it created for the first time [43:16] a federal program inventory, [43:18] which seemed kind of counterintuitive [43:20] that such a thing didn't exist for a long time, [43:23] but thanks to your work on that, Bill, [43:25] it now does exist. [43:26] So I commend you [43:27] for your longstanding commitment [43:29] to transparency and oversight [43:31] when it comes to federal programs. [43:32] Appreciate that. [43:34] In response to your question, [43:35] I agree with you [43:38] that sometimes GAO reports, [43:39] I mean, I love a good GAO report, [43:40] but they are often kind of [43:41] at a higher level of abstraction. [43:43] They're still extremely valuable, I think, [43:45] but I think sometimes GAO [43:47] can get a little bit tentative [43:50] if it gets too specific. [43:53] I describe them as safe. [43:56] They're trying to write a safe report [43:57] on a bad issue of fraud, [43:59] and I don't need safe, [44:01] I need raw information. [44:02] That's what Mr. Shirley [44:02] is actually bringing in, [44:03] saying here's the raw information. [44:05] Yeah, I'd be happy to see that too, [44:06] and I think creating more independence, [44:09] as I mentioned earlier, [44:09] for GAO could help with that problem [44:11] because they would feel less insecure [44:13] and less scared [44:14] of potentially upsetting [44:16] some particular constituency [44:18] who may, in fact, [44:19] have control over their budget, right? [44:20] So part of this is [44:21] you really want watchdogs [44:22] to be as much as possible [44:23] within the bounds [44:24] of constitutional allowability. [44:26] You want them to be [44:26] as independent as possible [44:27] so that they can do their work [44:29] without fear or favor. [44:30] Okay, that's helpful. [44:31] Mr. Keeve, [44:32] I'm just going to make a comment to you. [44:33] Thank you for the work [44:33] that you're doing [44:34] on trying to be able to expose issues [44:36] in our election security. [44:37] In Oklahoma, [44:38] we have a very secure election system, [44:40] and we work very hard on that, [44:42] verifying we've got voter ID. [44:44] If you're going to do mail-in balloting, [44:45] you have to have a notary [44:46] to be able to verify [44:47] that's actually you. [44:48] We go through a lot of steps [44:49] to be able to make sure [44:50] we secure our election. [44:51] I wish that was so in every state, [44:53] but it is incredibly important [44:54] for the trust [44:55] that we actually have that. [44:56] So I just want to tell you [44:57] I appreciate the work [44:58] that you're doing. [44:59] Look forward to getting a chance [44:59] to read more of what you're doing. [45:01] Thank you. [45:02] Senator Scott. [45:04] Chairman, [45:04] wouldn't a Democrat go next [45:06] since the Republican just testified? [45:07] If there were a Democrat here, yes. [45:09] So there's no Democrats present [45:11] at a hearing about fraud? [45:14] There doesn't appear [45:14] to be a great deal of interest [45:15] across the aisle. [45:17] Senator Scott. [45:19] Thank you, Senator Moreno. [45:20] It's hard to believe in. [45:23] First off, thank you all [45:24] for caring about election security. [45:27] So, Mr. O'Keefe, [45:28] your team returned to Skid Row [45:29] after the DOG indicted somebody [45:32] for election fraud [45:33] and found the same operation [45:34] running openly. [45:36] Cash for signatures, [45:37] fake voter data, [45:38] and coaching on forgery. [45:39] So walk us through [45:41] what you documented [45:42] and what it tells you [45:43] about whether the indictment [45:44] deterred anybody, [45:45] how widespread is the model [45:47] beyond Skid Row in Los Angeles. [45:49] Based on your investigation, [45:50] do you think this model [45:51] could easily be replicated [45:52] in other states [45:53] and cities around the country? [45:56] Thank you, Senator. [45:57] Yeah, within seconds [45:58] of appearing on Skid Row, [45:59] I personally disguised [46:01] as a homeless person [46:02] caught this behavior [46:03] happening in broad daylight. [46:05] So it's happening [46:05] thousands of times. [46:06] And I wanted to mention [46:07] the names of these organizations, [46:09] these petitioners [46:10] that gather signatures [46:11] to put on these initiatives [46:12] in California. [46:13] Urban signers is one. [46:15] One more petition is another. [46:17] So Brenda Brown was indicted [46:19] by the Department of Justice. [46:21] But the question remains, [46:22] who's on the top [46:22] orchestrating all of this? [46:24] That's something we intend [46:25] to find out. [46:26] And I will be submitting [46:28] to Senator Ron Johnson [46:29] a request for subpoena [46:30] to gather more information [46:31] about that. [46:32] And also these people [46:34] are logging in [46:35] to an online database [46:37] called sigvalid.com [46:39] and pulling real names [46:41] and voters. [46:42] Those people's votes [46:43] are disenfranchised. [46:44] We went to their homes [46:45] and we knocked on the door [46:47] of them. [46:47] And one of them said, [46:48] what if I wanted to vote [46:50] in this election? [46:51] So this is a completely [46:52] nonpartisan, nonpolitical issue. [46:55] Mayor Karen Bass, [46:56] the LADA, [46:57] and the governor of California [46:58] did not criticize me. [46:59] They actually put statements out [47:01] saying this is outrageous [47:02] and needs to be exposed. [47:04] So what's happened? [47:07] The Department of Justice [47:08] is indicted, [47:09] but nobody in the state [47:11] of California [47:12] has yet arrested [47:13] or prosecuted these people. [47:15] And what's Gavin Newsom done? [47:17] Put out a statement [47:18] condemning the stuff [47:19] that we exposed in the tape. [47:20] That's it. [47:21] So doesn't he have [47:21] investigation authority? [47:23] He does, [47:24] in the state of California. [47:24] Doesn't Karen Bass? [47:26] She does. [47:27] And is it against the law? [47:29] It is. [47:30] It's a state crime. [47:32] Fraudulently putting [47:33] someone else's name [47:33] on the California ballot petition. [47:36] So in California, [47:38] they're not going to prosecute this. [47:40] If it wasn't for the federal government, [47:41] nothing would happen. [47:42] I'm sorry? [47:43] If it wasn't for the federal government, [47:44] nothing would happen. [47:45] So far, [47:46] we have to put tremendous pressure [47:48] and find a way [47:50] to incentivize [47:51] these elected officials [47:52] to do the right thing. [47:53] So they also done, [47:56] have they also impacted [47:57] ballot initiatives [47:58] in California [47:59] with invalid signatures? [48:01] Yes. [48:02] These signatures [48:03] are regarding [48:04] California state elections. [48:06] Okay. [48:07] And these NGOs, [48:08] can you find out [48:09] where they're getting the money? [48:10] We did. [48:11] State money, [48:11] federal money, [48:12] county money? [48:13] Yes. [48:13] We did covertly interview [48:15] some of the NGOs [48:16] across the street. [48:17] Weingard is one. [48:19] They received [48:20] hundreds of millions [48:21] of dollars of funding. [48:23] And these NGOs [48:24] are located literally [48:25] across the street [48:26] from the fraud [48:27] that is happening. [48:28] I testified that [48:29] one man [48:30] who represented himself, [48:32] who was an NGO, [48:33] pretended to be [48:34] a police officer [48:35] to intimidate [48:36] my news organization [48:38] from reporting [48:38] on this abuse. [48:39] That is also [48:40] a state crime. [48:42] So the NGOs [48:42] see it happening [48:43] and in our story [48:45] actually encouraged it. [48:47] They said, [48:47] here's where you can [48:48] do the cash for ballots. [48:50] And those NGOs [48:51] receive billions of dollars [48:53] of federal funding. [48:55] So why are they getting, [48:57] what are they getting [48:57] the money for? [48:58] Under what premise [48:59] do they get money? [49:01] It's the California [49:02] Homeless Industrial Complex. [49:05] They're there to help, [49:06] protect, [49:07] and advance the mission [49:08] of supporting [49:09] the homeless population. [49:10] But our reporting [49:11] showed that the homeless [49:12] here are actually [49:13] the victims. [49:14] We interviewed a lot [49:15] of the homeless [49:15] and they were testifying [49:17] to me that they were [49:18] being taken advantage of. [49:20] And all it takes [49:21] is a few cigarettes, [49:22] some marijuana, [49:23] a few dollars, [49:24] which doesn't sound [49:24] like a lot to you and I, [49:25] but it helps them [49:26] buy a cheeseburger. [49:27] So they're the victims. [49:29] And that's what [49:30] they told us. [49:31] Did you follow [49:32] the Spencer Pratt race? [49:34] I did. [49:35] Were you surprised [49:36] that he went from [49:37] being the runner-up [49:38] to being out of the race? [49:41] I was, [49:42] all I can do [49:43] and all I can think about [49:45] is tracing [49:46] who's behind [49:47] this fraud [49:48] at the top. [49:49] That's my interest [49:50] and that's my priority. [49:52] It's because [49:52] all the stuff you see [49:54] out there [49:55] is all circumstantial evidence. [49:56] But what the U.S. attorney [49:58] told me [49:58] is the fact [49:59] that we caught [50:00] the cash exchange [50:01] on camera, [50:02] it led to an indictment. [50:03] So I want to know [50:04] who's orchestrating it [50:06] at the top [50:06] and I intend to find out. [50:08] Do you think [50:08] the U.S. attorney [50:10] will go after the NGO? [50:12] He did what he told me [50:14] he said he was going to do, [50:15] but we need [50:15] non-circumstantial evidence. [50:17] We need direct [50:18] cash payments [50:19] on tape, [50:20] incontrovertible evidence [50:22] for the Department of Justice [50:23] to do their job. [50:24] I feel like [50:25] that's my role. [50:26] I feel citizen journalists [50:27] don't have to deal [50:28] with bureaucracy. [50:29] We could just go there [50:30] and get the story [50:31] in a day [50:31] and that's what [50:32] we intend to do. [50:33] Thanks for what you're doing. [50:37] Senator Moreno. [50:38] Thank you, Mr. Chairman, [50:39] for holding this hearing [50:40] and let me just point out [50:43] again for the record [50:44] that I think [50:46] preventing fraud [50:47] in government [50:48] should be [50:49] completely nonpartisan. [50:51] It's not a Democrat issue [50:52] or a Republican issue [50:53] yet almost the entirety [50:55] of the Republican diocese [50:56] filled with people [50:58] sitting here [50:58] listening to the entire hearing [50:59] and literally [51:00] the entire Democrat [51:01] dais is empty. [51:03] I think that's [51:04] quite frankly a disgrace. [51:06] I think it's a disgrace [51:07] to the people [51:07] who pay taxes [51:08] to know that there's [51:09] an entire party [51:11] that does not care [51:12] whether taxpayer money [51:14] is burnt. [51:15] I think it's [51:16] absolutely, [51:17] completely outrageous. [51:19] Mr. Shirley, [51:19] I'll start with you. [51:21] The previous [51:21] Comptroller General [51:23] of the GAO [51:23] had been in office [51:25] since 2011. [51:29] What were you doing [51:30] in 2011? [51:31] Playing football [51:32] and basketball. [51:33] And what grade [51:34] were you in? [51:35] At that time [51:36] I was nine years old. [51:38] Nine? [51:39] Gotcha. [51:39] So you were nine years old [51:40] and this person served [51:42] for 15 years [51:43] in government [51:43] and we have [51:45] this idea [51:47] that maybe [51:47] we double down [51:48] on that process [51:49] that failed [51:50] for 15 years [51:51] that somehow [51:52] would be better off [51:53] and yet [51:53] you went in [51:54] at your risk [51:56] and exposed fraud. [51:59] How does [51:59] I'm going to take [52:01] a different angle. [52:01] How does it make you feel [52:02] as somebody [52:03] who's 25 years old [52:05] to know that [52:06] your generation [52:07] is going to pay the bill [52:09] for everything [52:09] that's happened right now? [52:11] We have $40 trillion [52:12] in debt [52:13] and yet your generation [52:15] is going to pay the price. [52:16] Yeah, I think [52:17] that's the sad thing [52:18] is my generation [52:18] is the one [52:19] who's affected the most [52:20] from this fraud [52:21] and from the national debt. [52:22] It's extremely hard [52:23] for anyone my age [52:24] to buy a home [52:25] even just to be able [52:26] to accumulate the money [52:27] to have a down payment [52:29] inside your bank account. [52:30] It's very, very hard [52:31] and so when you see [52:32] a fraudster [52:32] who literally opens up [52:34] a leering center [52:34] and they received [52:35] $1.9 million [52:36] and that was going on [52:38] for years [52:38] and no one ever did anything [52:39] but all this oversight [52:40] we had all [52:41] like everyone knew [52:43] about the fraud [52:43] but everyone was too afraid [52:44] to talk about the fraud [52:45] because of what would [52:47] happen to them. [52:48] What do you mean [52:48] what would happen to them? [52:49] Is it impolite [52:52] to say that somebody's [52:53] defrauding the government [52:56] because there's [52:57] of some certain race [52:58] or gender [52:59] or national origin [53:00] is that somehow racist [53:02] to say you should not [53:03] steal money [53:04] from the federal government? [53:05] It's not racist [53:06] but politically [53:08] it can be seen as racist. [53:10] They may label you [53:11] as Islamophobic [53:12] or racist quite frankly. [53:15] Well I think [53:16] profiles in courage [53:17] wouldn't be something [53:17] that would be written [53:18] about the current members [53:19] of the Democrat Party [53:20] for sure [53:21] because again [53:22] you think [53:23] you would agree [53:24] that they're just afraid [53:25] of being labeled that way [53:26] and that fear [53:26] drives them away [53:27] from even attending [53:28] a hearing like today? [53:29] Yeah definitely [53:30] and it's very sad [53:32] to see that [53:33] that's their priorities [53:37] is to make sure [53:38] that they're not labeled [53:38] as racist [53:39] or Islamophobic [53:40] for exposing fraud [53:41] or for exposing [53:42] what's happening [53:42] inside a community. [53:44] Quite frankly [53:44] they use the Somali population [53:45] to commit the fraud. [53:47] Ilhan Omar should be [53:48] disgraced of what she did [53:49] to the Somali population. [53:50] And when you look [53:51] at people in your generation [53:54] can't afford a car [53:55] can't afford a house [53:56] don't see how [53:56] in the future [53:57] you'd be able to retire [53:58] with any kind of dignity [53:59] and yet somebody [54:00] can break into our country [54:01] illegally [54:01] be provided a luxury hotel room [54:03] in New York [54:04] three meals a day [54:05] maid service once a week [54:07] free education [54:08] free health care [54:09] what goes through your head [54:11] when you think about that? [54:13] Like how does this happen? [54:14] We're putting foreigners [54:15] oftentimes above [54:16] American citizens [54:17] and it's very very sad to see. [54:19] And Mr. Hitler-Gadette [54:21] I want to drill back down [54:24] to the numbers you provided [54:25] because I want to make sure [54:25] I heard them correctly. [54:27] You talked about [54:28] again we're here [54:29] to talk about fraud. [54:30] We can talk about waste [54:32] in a different hearing. [54:33] We're here to talk about fraud. [54:34] You mentioned in 2025 [54:35] what was the number [54:35] that you said? [54:36] You knew the numbers [54:37] off the top of your head [54:37] pretty well. [54:38] It's impressive. [54:39] GAO estimated that [54:40] in fiscal year 2025 [54:41] we issued $186 billion [54:43] in improper payments. [54:44] So $186 billion [54:46] in 2025. [54:47] from 17 to 20 [54:50] which is President Trump's [54:51] first term [54:52] that number by GAO [54:53] is estimated to be [54:54] $672 billion. [54:55] Does that sound right? [54:57] I don't have that number [54:58] off the top of my head [54:59] but I... [54:59] Sounds right? [55:00] Yeah. [55:00] Yeah generally. [55:01] You get GAO [55:01] citing their numbers. [55:03] And from 2020 to 2024 [55:05] that number under Biden [55:06] was $925 billion. [55:09] So I would point out [55:09] 2020 is still [55:10] the Trump administration. [55:12] No, no. [55:12] This is fiscal year [55:14] so this would start [55:14] October 1st. [55:15] Yeah, so it was a 38% increase [55:19] and it's been massively cut back [55:21] by President Trump [55:22] in the second term. [55:24] I don't know that [55:25] that's the greatest case [55:26] to be made [55:27] that the entire issue [55:28] is because we have [55:29] these inspector generals [55:30] that have failed dramatically [55:31] since the time [55:32] Nick Shirley was playing [55:33] basketball in his driveway [55:35] when he was nine years old. [55:37] I think what we need to do [55:38] here Mr. Chairman [55:39] to state this topic [55:40] very seriously. [55:40] I think the American people [55:41] are sick and tired [55:42] of hearings honestly. [55:43] I think they need to see [55:44] people who are held accountable [55:45] that go to jail [55:47] and until we do that [55:49] I don't know that [55:49] we have the confidence [55:50] of people. [55:51] I feel badly [55:51] for next generation honestly. [55:53] I don't know how [55:54] they look at it and say [55:55] this government [55:56] is just failing us [55:57] and the sense [55:58] of disenfranchisement [55:59] with the American government. [56:02] I mean I just can't [56:04] wrap my head around [56:05] the fact that Democrats [56:06] care so little [56:07] about this topic [56:08] that they don't even show up. [56:09] They didn't show up [56:09] at your session either [56:11] Senator Johnson [56:12] when we talked about [56:13] this exact topic [56:14] in your committee [56:15] and ultimately [56:17] if your elected leaders [56:19] don't give a crap [56:20] about how government [56:21] spends money [56:22] it's an indictment [56:24] on that [56:25] and even worse [56:25] the media just won't [56:26] even talk about it. [56:28] There will be more stories [56:29] on CNN tonight [56:30] about the reflecting pond [56:32] being empty [56:32] than the fact [56:33] that you had a hearing today [56:35] about trillions [56:36] of dollars of fraud [56:38] and that is the problem. [56:40] The media is complicit. [56:41] The Democrats are complicit [56:42] because that's ultimately [56:43] you have to think [56:44] what keeps them in power. [56:46] So with that [56:47] thank you Mr. Chairman. [56:50] Senator Ernst. [56:51] Yes thank you Mr. Chairman [56:52] for holding this important hearing [56:54] and I want to thank [56:55] our witnesses [56:56] for being here today [56:57] as well [56:58] because a lot of you [57:00] are deciding [57:01] to go face to face [57:02] with a lot of the fraudsters [57:05] that are ripping off [57:05] our taxpayers [57:06] and you're exposing [57:08] the corruption [57:09] that the typical [57:11] mainstream media [57:12] and our federal government [57:14] and state governments [57:16] have been ignoring [57:17] and in some cases [57:18] actually enabling. [57:20] So I've learned [57:22] the hard way [57:22] through many many years [57:24] of working on [57:25] fraud waste and abuse [57:26] within the federal government [57:27] that this type of work [57:29] doesn't earn you [57:30] a lot of friends. [57:31] So because of the work [57:33] that all of you are doing [57:34] I just want to say [57:35] thank you so much [57:36] on behalf of all of my Iowans [57:38] and all of our taxpayers [57:40] across the country. [57:42] Americans are sending [57:43] their tax dollars [57:44] to Washington. [57:45] You know what [57:46] they deserve to know [57:47] how those taxpayer dollars [57:49] are being spent [57:50] and they need to know [57:52] that the money [57:52] that they have worked [57:53] really hard for [57:54] is being safeguarded [57:56] and responsibly spent. [57:57] And I found this [57:58] really shocking [57:59] in a lot of the work [58:00] that I've done [58:01] that every single day [58:03] every single day [58:04] we are losing [58:05] as a federal government [58:07] 1.4 billion dollars [58:10] to fraud. [58:11] That's not a week [58:12] that's not a month [58:13] that's every single day [58:15] 1.4 [58:16] and that's just a fraud. [58:17] That doesn't include [58:18] all of the waste [58:19] and abuse [58:20] that we have [58:21] in the federal government. [58:22] That's a lot of money [58:23] that has gone missing [58:25] without anybody noticing [58:27] or in some cases [58:29] even caring. [58:30] So I've always said it [58:32] but if you can't find [58:33] waste, fraud, or abuse [58:34] in Washington [58:35] it's simply because [58:36] you're not looking. [58:38] You're not looking. [58:40] So our witnesses [58:41] have taken a hard look [58:43] at this issue. [58:44] I appreciate it. [58:45] You have given Americans [58:46] an opportunity [58:47] to see what is happening [58:49] with their own eyes [58:50] and because of that [58:52] the content [58:53] has gone viral. [58:56] So, Nick [58:57] we all know this [59:00] we've all seen this. [59:02] So for the folks [59:04] that are out there [59:04] watching YouTube journalist [59:06] Nick Shirley's visit [59:07] to the Quality Leering Center [59:09] helped all of us [59:11] leer how easy it is [59:12] to get away with fraud [59:13] in Minnesota. [59:15] The Leering Center [59:16] was given [59:17] $10 million [59:18] of taxpayer money [59:19] to provide child care [59:21] yet Mr. Shirley's footage [59:23] showed that there were [59:24] not even any [59:25] children present. [59:27] Despite what we were able [59:28] to see with our own eyes [59:29] Minnesota officials [59:31] insisted that the Leering Center [59:34] and other questionable [59:35] child care centers [59:36] exposed by Nick Shirley [59:38] were quote [59:38] operating as expected. [59:42] And folks [59:43] that is exactly [59:44] the problem. [59:46] It's the grift [59:47] that keeps on giving. [59:48] Mr. Shirley [59:49] two whistleblowers [59:51] who are career [59:54] civil servants [59:56] with the Minnesota [59:57] state government [59:58] testified before [59:59] our committee that I chair [1:00:01] that they reported [1:00:02] suspected fraud [1:00:04] including with these [1:00:06] child care centers [1:00:08] years before you made it [1:00:09] a national story. [1:00:11] And I want everyone [1:00:13] to recognize [1:00:14] this is not a Democrat [1:00:15] Republican problem [1:00:16] because one of those [1:00:18] witnesses is a Democrat. [1:00:21] She is a lifelong Democrat [1:00:22] and she was a whistleblower [1:00:24] because why? [1:00:26] Because some of the programs [1:00:27] she was exposing for fraud [1:00:29] her family had relied upon [1:00:32] when she was a child [1:00:34] and she recognized [1:00:35] that the dollars [1:00:37] that were committed [1:00:38] to some of these programs [1:00:40] with good intent [1:00:41] were not going [1:00:43] to the families [1:00:44] that truly needed [1:00:45] those taxpayer dollars. [1:00:49] So those two whistleblowers [1:00:51] guess what happened? [1:00:53] They were retaliated against [1:00:54] because they brought [1:00:57] the issue to light. [1:00:59] And likewise, [1:01:01] you are called a [1:01:02] quote, [1:01:03] delusional conspiracy theorist [1:01:06] end quote, [1:01:07] by Minnesota Governor Walz [1:01:09] and accused of quote, [1:01:11] grandstanding [1:01:12] by the state's attorney general. [1:01:15] And similarly, [1:01:17] when you expose Medicare [1:01:18] hospice fraud in California, [1:01:20] Governor Newsom's office [1:01:21] responded by tweeting quote, [1:01:24] surely is the fraud. [1:01:26] So Mr. Shirley, [1:01:29] why do you think [1:01:30] politicians are trying [1:01:31] to stop people like you [1:01:34] who are exposing corruption [1:01:36] rather than those [1:01:37] who are actually committing [1:01:39] the fraud? [1:01:41] Well, first off, [1:01:43] it's very sad [1:01:43] that two governors [1:01:45] of the United States [1:01:45] would even post that [1:01:46] about somebody [1:01:47] who's exposing fraud. [1:01:48] All I've done [1:01:49] is try to help America [1:01:50] and I've done it. [1:01:51] They quite frankly aren't. [1:01:52] That's why they're so angry [1:01:53] about it [1:01:54] because they actually rely [1:01:55] upon the fraud [1:01:55] in order to continue [1:01:56] to push their agendas [1:01:57] inside their states. [1:01:59] That's why they get so mad [1:02:00] when the fraud gets exposed [1:02:01] because that money [1:02:02] oftentimes goes back [1:02:04] into the hands of [1:02:05] not necessarily the politicians [1:02:07] but what fuels those politicians [1:02:08] to be able to do [1:02:09] what they want to do [1:02:10] inside their state. [1:02:11] Right. [1:02:12] And it's a sad state [1:02:13] of affairs. [1:02:14] But what we see every day, [1:02:16] Washington is losing [1:02:17] up to $521 billion [1:02:20] to fraud every year. [1:02:22] The offices of Inspector General [1:02:24] have a combined yearly budget [1:02:26] of nearly $4 billion. [1:02:28] Similarly, GAO has an annual budget [1:02:31] of more than $800 million. [1:02:35] And I share that [1:02:36] because they have hundreds [1:02:38] of investigators and auditors [1:02:39] at their disposal. [1:02:42] Do you have billions of dollars [1:02:44] at your disposal [1:02:45] and endless resources [1:02:47] to enable you to uncover fraud? [1:02:50] No, not at all. [1:02:51] In fact, I have to spend [1:02:52] tens of thousands of dollars [1:02:53] just to stay safe now. [1:02:55] Yeah. [1:02:55] Because of posts just like that [1:02:56] from governors [1:02:57] of the United States of America. [1:02:58] Exactly. [1:02:59] And so with very little resources, [1:03:01] you have been able [1:03:02] to uncover fraud. [1:03:04] And yet our federal government [1:03:05] doesn't seem to be able [1:03:07] to track it down. [1:03:09] So I know I'm out of time. [1:03:12] I've gone over. [1:03:14] But it doesn't take millions [1:03:17] and billions of dollars [1:03:18] to expose fraud. [1:03:19] We have to do a better job. [1:03:21] I do have a bill, [1:03:24] a package that I have proposed. [1:03:27] Senator Thune has charged me [1:03:28] with doing this. [1:03:29] A number of people, [1:03:31] including the chair, [1:03:32] have bills, anti-fraud bills, [1:03:35] that have been included [1:03:35] in this anti-fraud package. [1:03:38] We are hoping to be able [1:03:39] to move it on the floor [1:03:40] of the Senate very soon. [1:03:42] And it really is a common sense move [1:03:47] to doing the right thing [1:03:48] for our taxpayers. [1:03:49] So I really appreciate it. [1:03:52] Senator Paul, [1:03:53] thank you so much, [1:03:54] Mr. Chair, [1:03:54] for holding this hearing. [1:03:57] We need to take care [1:03:58] of this issue. [1:03:59] It's the right thing to do. [1:04:01] Thank you. [1:04:01] I yield back. [1:04:02] Senator Moody. [1:04:03] Mr. Chairman, [1:04:04] I think this is one [1:04:05] of the most important hearings [1:04:06] that we have had [1:04:08] since I've become... [1:04:09] I'm one of the newest [1:04:10] United States senators, [1:04:11] which just proves [1:04:12] that the least senior people [1:04:14] can actually move [1:04:15] and be the loudest. [1:04:16] This is one [1:04:17] of the most important things [1:04:19] that we could be doing [1:04:20] right now as a Congress. [1:04:21] And it comes right to me, [1:04:22] another Republican, [1:04:23] because there's not [1:04:24] another Democrat here [1:04:25] to question any of you [1:04:27] who represent a wide swath [1:04:30] of the political spectrum, [1:04:31] I imagine, [1:04:32] on what is happening [1:04:33] right now in our country. [1:04:34] And I appreciate my colleague, [1:04:36] Senator Ernst. [1:04:37] We are going to miss her immensely [1:04:39] in her fight against fraud [1:04:41] and waste in this country. [1:04:43] I am going to miss her immensely. [1:04:46] As many of you know, [1:04:47] she is retiring from the Senate. [1:04:49] But I thank her [1:04:49] for putting up these tweets [1:04:51] as a reminder. [1:04:53] And Nick Shirley, [1:04:53] you spoke about this. [1:04:55] I love that you are, [1:04:56] by the way, 24 years old. [1:04:58] And you took something, [1:05:00] you started, [1:05:01] I want to say as young as 16 [1:05:03] or something, [1:05:04] disrupting things. [1:05:07] And man, [1:05:09] does this bureaucracy [1:05:10] and I would say cover-up [1:05:12] need disrupting. [1:05:14] And boy, [1:05:15] does it take somebody like you [1:05:16] that is fine with that [1:05:18] because you're driven by passion [1:05:20] for protecting your generation [1:05:22] because you're coming after all of us [1:05:24] and will feel this immensely [1:05:26] in the debt that you inherit. [1:05:28] And I am so grateful to you [1:05:30] for showing up here [1:05:31] and showing that age, [1:05:32] no matter your age, [1:05:33] no matter where you're from, [1:05:34] Americans should demand [1:05:35] that their government [1:05:36] is accountable to them [1:05:37] and are good stewards [1:05:38] of their money. [1:05:39] And boy, [1:05:39] am I so impressed by you [1:05:41] and I hope that your family [1:05:42] is as well. [1:05:43] But I'm so glad [1:05:44] that we have these [1:05:45] because I just want to point out [1:05:46] and this is nothing [1:05:47] that I prepared for, [1:05:48] but Tim Waltz, [1:05:50] governor of Minnesota, [1:05:52] do you remember [1:05:52] when he wanted to be [1:05:53] our vice president [1:05:54] and was bragging [1:05:55] that all of these types [1:05:56] of new small businesses [1:05:57] were reasons why [1:05:58] he should be trusted [1:05:59] with leading? [1:06:00] And now we're determining [1:06:01] what all these small businesses [1:06:03] like the Leering Center were? [1:06:04] He used this as a reason [1:06:07] that he gave the American people [1:06:09] of why he should leave. [1:06:10] So why are we surprised [1:06:11] that immediately he's defensive [1:06:13] and comes after a young kid [1:06:15] that's trying to point out [1:06:16] on behalf of his generation [1:06:17] where this money is really going [1:06:20] and this fraud? [1:06:20] And look at what [1:06:22] the leader of California said. [1:06:24] Did he really say [1:06:26] in response to you uncovering [1:06:29] just astronomical fraud [1:06:31] and waste that, [1:06:33] and I want to quote this [1:06:35] because I am appalled by it. [1:06:37] Did he really say [1:06:38] slow, surely is the fraud? [1:06:42] Yes, he did. [1:06:44] I didn't misread that? [1:06:45] That wasn't misprinted? [1:06:47] No. [1:06:47] So somebody that wants [1:06:49] to be the leader [1:06:50] of the Democratic Party [1:06:52] and show his great, [1:06:54] I guess, character [1:06:56] is demeaning you [1:06:57] and calling you names [1:07:00] and ridiculing you? [1:07:04] Really? [1:07:04] Yes, that is Gavin Newsom. [1:07:06] I would suggest [1:07:09] that anyone could see [1:07:10] what this is. [1:07:11] This is, oh my goodness, [1:07:13] we just got caught. [1:07:14] Let's throw out a bunch [1:07:16] of blood in the water, [1:07:18] go after other people, [1:07:19] make sure people blame it [1:07:20] on somebody else, [1:07:21] but don't pay attention to us. [1:07:24] What is that, like ink? [1:07:26] Yes, and actually, [1:07:27] Gavin Newsom just yesterday, [1:07:28] he's giving now $20 million [1:07:29] to a local journalist. [1:07:32] They're going to be able [1:07:33] to get grants up to $250,000 [1:07:34] to do journalism [1:07:36] inside of California. [1:07:36] He's essentially paying [1:07:37] for good press [1:07:38] with our tax dollars as well. [1:07:40] I have to also commend [1:07:41] my other colleague, [1:07:42] Mr. Johnson, [1:07:43] who was saying, [1:07:44] you know, in California, [1:07:45] instead of the [1:07:46] Stop Nick Shirley Act, [1:07:48] they should call it [1:07:49] Protect Fraudsters Act. [1:07:53] I mean, truly, [1:07:54] this should be a wake-up call [1:07:56] to everyone in America [1:07:57] that the people [1:07:59] that the Dems want to put [1:08:00] in charge of their parties [1:08:02] and in charge of their government, [1:08:04] as soon as something [1:08:06] is brought to their attention [1:08:08] in a good-faith way, [1:08:10] their response is not to say, [1:08:11] let's roll up our sleeves [1:08:12] and dig in. [1:08:13] The response is to say, [1:08:15] nothing to see here. [1:08:17] The person that's bringing up is, [1:08:18] let me make sure I have this, [1:08:20] slow and a fraud himself, [1:08:22] and let's propose legislation, [1:08:26] not only so that we can keep [1:08:28] covering it up, [1:08:31] but that we can go after them. [1:08:33] Yes, and I wanted this [1:08:35] to be on the record. [1:08:36] Never once has a Democrat [1:08:38] politician ever congratulated me [1:08:40] or said, [1:08:40] thank you for exposing this [1:08:41] or even reached out to say, [1:08:43] hey, maybe come check out [1:08:44] what's happening inside of our state. [1:08:45] They are, quite frankly, [1:08:47] complicit in the fraud, [1:08:48] and that's why none of them [1:08:49] are here today. [1:08:49] Maybe. [1:08:50] Complicit, [1:08:51] trying to cover up something, [1:08:54] aiding and abetting. [1:08:57] 100%. [1:08:57] Promoting their own political careers [1:09:00] over taxpaying, [1:09:01] hardworking Americans. [1:09:04] I thank you. [1:09:05] You know, there is an entire [1:09:07] fraud economy. [1:09:10] I think President Trump [1:09:11] and his administration [1:09:12] that is uncovering this, [1:09:14] it's positive news [1:09:15] that they're uncovering [1:09:16] more and more of it, [1:09:17] but it is sad [1:09:17] that we are seeing so much of it. [1:09:20] When I came to Washington, [1:09:21] I was like, [1:09:22] we need to take a machete [1:09:23] to all of the bureaucracy, [1:09:26] all of the, [1:09:27] this has always been, [1:09:29] there's always, [1:09:29] every time I bring up a problem, [1:09:31] the Dem response is, [1:09:32] we've always had fraud, [1:09:34] or we've always had coercion [1:09:35] of individuals, [1:09:36] or we've always had this, [1:09:37] but they never once say, [1:09:39] let's do something about it. [1:09:40] So I would, [1:09:41] I would actually ask my colleagues, [1:09:43] I have proposed in response to this. [1:09:45] If we want to do something about it, [1:09:47] if we want to be aggressive, [1:09:48] we need to start proposing solutions. [1:09:50] I thank my colleague, [1:09:51] Senator Ernst. [1:09:52] I have also proposed [1:09:53] the Stop Child Care Scams Act, [1:09:56] the Stop Fraud in Medicaid Act, [1:09:57] the No Aid for Ghost Students Act, [1:10:00] Punishing Healthcare Fraudsters Act. [1:10:02] This is just a few [1:10:03] that we are working on [1:10:04] with my colleague, [1:10:05] Senator Schmidt. [1:10:06] We have launched [1:10:06] a Senate task force against fraud. [1:10:09] And I know they don't like [1:10:10] to talk about fraud. [1:10:11] They get really itchy [1:10:12] when we talk about any kind of fraud, [1:10:14] especially election fraud, [1:10:17] especially election fraud. [1:10:19] And instead of saying, [1:10:21] okay, let's explore [1:10:23] what people are saying, [1:10:24] or trying to discredit them, [1:10:26] or picking someone [1:10:26] that knows nothing about it [1:10:28] when they come into hearing [1:10:28] and saying, [1:10:29] did President Trump win the election? [1:10:31] The person would have no way of knowing [1:10:33] and making them say that. [1:10:35] And see, see, they said that. [1:10:36] Instead of actually exploring fraud [1:10:38] and doing something about it, [1:10:39] I think we need to make sure [1:10:41] that we don't just uncover, [1:10:43] we don't just address it, [1:10:44] we don't just ask what we can do, [1:10:45] but we bolster the American people's trust [1:10:48] in our elections. [1:10:50] And the way we do that [1:10:51] is to follow the Florida blueprint. [1:10:52] We used to be a national embarrassment [1:10:54] with the hanging chads, [1:10:56] getting ballot results [1:10:57] after everybody went to sleep days later. [1:10:59] Within just two decades, [1:11:00] we've turned that around. [1:11:01] We have results by bedtime. [1:11:03] People trust Florida elections. [1:11:05] We can do that in this nation, [1:11:06] which is why I want to propose legislation [1:11:08] that says ballots by election day, [1:11:13] ballots by election day, [1:11:15] so people have faith [1:11:16] in the results of their elections. [1:11:19] Mr. O'Keefe, and I'm over time, [1:11:20] but is this something you think [1:11:22] would bring better trust [1:11:25] by Americans in our elections [1:11:26] if we could announce results by election day, [1:11:29] ballots in by election days, [1:11:30] excluding military, of course? [1:11:31] Senator, I do. [1:11:34] Citizenship verification answers [1:11:35] whether a person is eligible, [1:11:37] but it does not answer [1:11:38] whether the applicant is that person. [1:11:41] And that's what we saw in California. [1:11:43] So federal reform should require [1:11:44] identity to be verified [1:11:45] before a registration gets active. [1:11:49] I think Congress should look at that as well. [1:11:51] Thank you. [1:11:52] And thank you for being here today, [1:11:53] all of you. [1:11:53] We very much appreciate it. [1:11:55] Senator Hawley. [1:11:55] Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. [1:11:57] Thanks to the witnesses for being here. [1:11:58] Mr. Shirley, [1:12:00] I just want to start with you. [1:12:01] I, for my part, [1:12:02] want to say thank you [1:12:03] for the terrific work you've done [1:12:04] on exposing fraud [1:12:05] all across the country, [1:12:06] nowhere more so [1:12:08] than in the state of Minnesota. [1:12:09] You know, it's a funny thing. [1:12:10] Not long ago, [1:12:11] the Attorney General [1:12:12] of the state of Minnesota [1:12:13] was sitting right where you're sitting, [1:12:14] Keith Ellison. [1:12:15] And I had a question or two for him [1:12:18] about the fraud in that state. [1:12:20] And he said to me that, [1:12:21] oh, oh, I mean, [1:12:22] it just, nobody could have found it. [1:12:23] I mean, he didn't, [1:12:25] he didn't know anything about it. [1:12:26] You know, he was completely in the dark [1:12:28] until it was all blown open [1:12:30] and there's just nothing [1:12:31] that would have tipped him off. [1:12:32] I find that interesting [1:12:33] because near as I can tell, [1:12:35] I mean, you were a 24-year-old [1:12:36] independent journalist. [1:12:37] You had a camera [1:12:38] and a list of public spending records. [1:12:40] Right? [1:12:41] Correct. [1:12:41] So how did, [1:12:42] if this fraud was so hard to find, [1:12:44] how did you manage to find it [1:12:46] when none of the public officials [1:12:47] in Minnesota could find it? [1:12:49] I simply went to the locations [1:12:50] of the leering centers [1:12:52] and the daycares [1:12:52] and asked to enroll a child. [1:12:57] And there was no way [1:12:58] to enroll a child [1:12:59] into any of these daycares. [1:13:00] In fact, there were no children [1:13:01] to be seen anywhere. [1:13:03] So in other words, [1:13:03] you asked a few questions [1:13:05] and you looked. [1:13:06] You actually looked [1:13:07] to see if there was fraud. [1:13:08] Yes. [1:13:09] And you found it wide open, [1:13:10] everywhere, rampant. [1:13:12] Everywhere. [1:13:12] Everywhere. [1:13:14] And a lot of the Medicaid programs [1:13:16] inside of Minnesota [1:13:17] from the non-emergency [1:13:19] vehicles to transportation companies. [1:13:22] You know, I find it so interesting [1:13:23] because Keith Ellison, [1:13:25] when he was Attorney General [1:13:26] way back in 2018, 2019, [1:13:29] I think we've got a poster [1:13:29] of this effect, [1:13:30] was actually told [1:13:32] and had multiple referrals [1:13:34] made to his office [1:13:35] about fraud [1:13:36] in some of the very programs [1:13:37] that you looked at. [1:13:39] This is years ago now. [1:13:41] He had official referrals [1:13:42] made to him. [1:13:44] He said, [1:13:44] oh, I just couldn't find [1:13:45] any evidence of the fraud. [1:13:47] Do you think maybe [1:13:47] there's a little bit [1:13:48] of corruption [1:13:49] at the governmental level [1:13:51] in the state of Minnesota? [1:13:52] I mean, [1:13:52] is that just maybe [1:13:53] a possibility? [1:13:54] Maybe some of these guys [1:13:55] are maybe on the take, [1:13:56] you think? [1:13:57] I mean, possible? [1:13:58] Yeah, it's not even maybe [1:13:59] or possibly. [1:14:00] It's a certainty. [1:14:01] Yeah, I would say so too. [1:14:02] And I can prove it to you. [1:14:03] Keith Ellison, [1:14:05] that guy, [1:14:05] after overlooking [1:14:06] $250 million in fraud, [1:14:09] he took $10,000 [1:14:10] in campaign contributions [1:14:12] from the very people [1:14:13] who were committing the fraud [1:14:14] who came to see him [1:14:15] in his office, [1:14:17] asked him to please [1:14:18] get state investigators [1:14:20] off of their backs, [1:14:21] which he did, [1:14:22] asked him to shut down [1:14:24] the investigations, [1:14:25] which he helped with, [1:14:26] offered to give him money, [1:14:27] which he accepted. [1:14:29] I mean, [1:14:29] I think that's the answer [1:14:30] as to why can't any [1:14:31] of these people find the fraud? [1:14:32] Because they're getting [1:14:33] paid by the fraudsters. [1:14:35] And here you are, [1:14:36] 24 years old, [1:14:37] got a camera, [1:14:38] got the public records, [1:14:39] asked a few questions [1:14:40] and it's everywhere to be seen. [1:14:41] I mean, [1:14:41] this kind of corruption [1:14:42] and it's what, [1:14:44] sadly, [1:14:45] the Democrat Party [1:14:45] wants to bring to this country [1:14:46] all across America. [1:14:47] I don't know why guys like Ellison [1:14:48] are not being prosecuted, [1:14:49] I have to tell you. [1:14:51] And he sat there [1:14:51] and lied under oath [1:14:52] right where you're sitting now. [1:14:53] I asked him why [1:14:54] he took this money. [1:14:55] He said, [1:14:55] oh, I didn't take a dime. [1:14:56] He took $10,000. [1:14:58] It's on the record. [1:14:59] I just want to commend you [1:15:00] for what you've done. [1:15:01] Mr. O'Keefe, [1:15:02] I want to thank you [1:15:02] for being here as well. [1:15:04] I want to thank you [1:15:05] particularly for your investigation, [1:15:06] so many of them, [1:15:07] but particularly those [1:15:08] into anti-Christian bias. [1:15:10] I want to ask you [1:15:10] just about Trevor Williams [1:15:13] of the Washington Nationals. [1:15:14] You found that Trevor Williams [1:15:16] was shut down, [1:15:18] he was muffled, [1:15:20] he was gagged [1:15:21] by his own team [1:15:23] because he had the audacity [1:15:25] to say that he didn't think [1:15:27] that this poster, [1:15:29] I think we got a picture of this, [1:15:30] that this outrageous desecration [1:15:32] of the Last Supper [1:15:34] by this group [1:15:35] that calls itself [1:15:36] the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, [1:15:39] which is an anti-Christian group [1:15:41] that actively mocks Catholics [1:15:42] and other Christians. [1:15:43] He said he didn't like this, [1:15:45] and for that reason, [1:15:46] if I remember correctly, [1:15:47] the Washington Nationals [1:15:48] tried to shut him down. [1:15:50] Tell us just about [1:15:51] what your investigation found. [1:15:54] This is involving [1:15:55] the Washington Nationals [1:15:55] baseball team [1:15:57] and civil rights violations [1:15:58] and anti-Christian bias, [1:16:01] and the Washington Nationals [1:16:02] has fired this vice president [1:16:04] for his bias against Christians, [1:16:07] and it's part of our expose, [1:16:09] exposing officials [1:16:10] and corporations [1:16:11] and in the administrative state, [1:16:14] the deep state, [1:16:15] breaking the law, [1:16:16] pushing back. [1:16:17] We have another one [1:16:18] coming out inside the Pentagon [1:16:19] in the next few days. [1:16:20] It has similar themes. [1:16:21] Well, I look forward to that. [1:16:23] Let me just say this. [1:16:24] Were you surprised at all, [1:16:25] given your investigation [1:16:26] of the Trevor Williams incident, [1:16:28] were you surprised at all [1:16:29] when the commissioner of baseball [1:16:31] just a few weeks ago [1:16:32] threatened to penalize [1:16:35] and fine players, [1:16:36] two players on the Giants [1:16:38] who put Bible verses [1:16:40] on to their, [1:16:41] one on their cap, [1:16:42] I think one on their jersey. [1:16:43] The commissioner of baseball [1:16:44] came out and said, [1:16:45] oh, that's against our rules. [1:16:47] We're going to fine you. [1:16:48] It was absolutely outrageous. [1:16:49] Did that surprise you, [1:16:50] given the sort of systemic bias, [1:16:52] if I could use that phrase [1:16:53] that you found? [1:16:54] It probably surprises me. [1:16:55] There's a lot of irony [1:16:55] and absurdity in reality, [1:16:57] but it does not shock me. [1:16:59] And I think sunlight, [1:17:01] to quote Brandeis, [1:17:02] is the best disinfectant. [1:17:04] So they might do [1:17:04] some things in open, [1:17:06] but I think it's possible [1:17:07] to shame the devil [1:17:08] by capturing these candid remarks [1:17:11] behind closed doors [1:17:12] where they really talk about [1:17:13] their intent [1:17:14] and their motivation. [1:17:15] And that video [1:17:16] caused a firestorm. [1:17:18] And to quote Nick Shirley, [1:17:19] the video does not film itself. [1:17:22] The citizen journalists [1:17:23] should get to show up [1:17:24] and do the thing. [1:17:25] And I think it's more difficult [1:17:26] for bureaucrats to do that. [1:17:27] So citizen journalists [1:17:29] are going to do it. [1:17:30] That's great. [1:17:30] Well, I'm glad you're doing [1:17:31] what you're doing. [1:17:32] And I think partly [1:17:33] because of what you exposed, [1:17:34] the kind of bias you exposed [1:17:35] in the Trevor Williams case, [1:17:36] the commissioner [1:17:37] of Major League Baseball [1:17:38] had to back down [1:17:39] when we confronted him [1:17:40] on this issue [1:17:41] and admit actually [1:17:42] the rules permit the players [1:17:43] to write these things [1:17:45] on their jerseys [1:17:45] if they so choose. [1:17:46] They permit the players [1:17:47] to forego [1:17:48] wearing politically themed jerseys [1:17:50] at all. [1:17:51] And he committed to me [1:17:52] in writing [1:17:52] that none of these players [1:17:53] will ever be fined [1:17:54] or disciplined [1:17:55] for expressing their faith. [1:17:56] But you and I both know [1:17:57] he wouldn't have done that [1:17:58] had he not been embarrassed [1:17:59] by the facts [1:18:00] that you and others [1:18:01] brought forward. [1:18:01] So thank you for your work. [1:18:02] Thank you. [1:18:03] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:18:04] They say a picture [1:18:05] is worth a thousand words. [1:18:07] I think a video [1:18:08] might be worth [1:18:08] 10,000 words. [1:18:12] It's been said that, [1:18:14] well, you know, [1:18:14] these are sensationalistic [1:18:16] and this isn't the proper way [1:18:17] to do it, young man. [1:18:18] And we shouldn't be doing this [1:18:20] and this isn't [1:18:21] and leave this to the government. [1:18:22] But I think the point's [1:18:23] also been made very clearly. [1:18:24] The government [1:18:25] has these inspector generals, [1:18:27] has the GAO. [1:18:28] I'm a fan of both of those groups, [1:18:30] but I don't know [1:18:30] if they have any inspectors. [1:18:32] I mean, [1:18:32] that actually go out on the road, [1:18:34] any video, [1:18:35] anybody's going [1:18:36] and checking on this. [1:18:37] So I think [1:18:38] what you've shown people [1:18:39] is what can happen [1:18:41] with pictures. [1:18:42] I mean, with video. [1:18:43] And the pictures [1:18:44] made a big difference. [1:18:45] As you said, [1:18:45] there's a normal virality [1:18:47] of these videos. [1:18:49] But there have actually [1:18:50] been indictments. [1:18:51] I think at least 15 indictments, [1:18:53] 90 million, 100 million. [1:18:54] I mean, [1:18:55] an enormous amount of money now [1:18:56] is being recovered [1:18:58] and been found and misspent. [1:19:00] I think that [1:19:02] when we look at things, [1:19:03] sometimes, though, [1:19:04] we get lost [1:19:05] in just the bad people. [1:19:06] And there are bad people. [1:19:08] And there always will be bad people. [1:19:09] That's why we have to police things. [1:19:11] And companies do it instantaneously. [1:19:14] You know, [1:19:15] Visa, [1:19:15] they're instantaneously [1:19:16] catching fraud. [1:19:17] Your bank's catching fraud. [1:19:18] Everybody is. [1:19:20] And so we scratch our head [1:19:21] and ask, [1:19:21] why isn't government? [1:19:23] You know, [1:19:23] why didn't government [1:19:24] have someone like Nick Shirley [1:19:26] that worked for them? [1:19:27] Why weren't we doing this? [1:19:29] And there's a systemic problem. [1:19:31] And the systemic problem [1:19:31] is worth looking at [1:19:32] because systemic problems [1:19:34] can fix thousands [1:19:36] of downstream problems. [1:19:38] The systemic problem [1:19:39] is basically this. [1:19:40] You sign up for welfare [1:19:41] at the state level. [1:19:42] The payment comes [1:19:44] from the federal level. [1:19:44] The state's look [1:19:47] at federal payment [1:19:48] as free [1:19:48] because we have [1:19:49] a printing press up here. [1:19:50] We just add it to the, [1:19:52] we add it to the national debt, [1:19:53] the $40 trillion debt, [1:19:54] the numbers that are [1:19:56] spiraling out of control. [1:19:57] But food stamps, [1:19:59] Medicaid, [1:20:00] you sign up [1:20:00] at the state level. [1:20:01] So if you tell a state [1:20:04] that we're going to pay [1:20:05] for 90% [1:20:06] or 100% of Medicaid [1:20:07] if you expand it, [1:20:08] is there any incentive [1:20:09] for them to check [1:20:10] people's credentials [1:20:11] to make sure [1:20:12] they're eligible [1:20:12] for Medicaid [1:20:13] or for food stamps? [1:20:15] Is there any incentive [1:20:16] to go like you did [1:20:17] to the autism center? [1:20:18] No, because they're [1:20:19] not paying for it. [1:20:20] So the states [1:20:21] have no incentive. [1:20:22] So one of the things [1:20:23] Senator Johnson and I [1:20:25] and several others [1:20:26] wanted to get added [1:20:27] to a bill last year [1:20:28] was trying to change [1:20:29] some of these percentages. [1:20:31] So ever since Obamacare, [1:20:33] Obamacare enticed [1:20:34] all the states [1:20:35] to expand Medicaid. [1:20:36] And a lot of these programs [1:20:37] come under the auspices [1:20:39] of Medicaid. [1:20:39] The government paid [1:20:42] 100% of it [1:20:43] for like three years. [1:20:44] And now 15 years later [1:20:45] the government's [1:20:45] still paying 90%. [1:20:46] The rest of Medicaid's [1:20:48] closer to 50-50 [1:20:49] or 45-55. [1:20:51] So the states [1:20:52] have some skin in the game. [1:20:53] If they allow [1:20:54] too much fraud to occur [1:20:55] they're paying [1:20:56] for part of the fraud. [1:20:58] But if 90% of it's paid [1:20:59] for the federal government [1:21:00] you're not paying fraud. [1:21:01] We had a proposal [1:21:02] that would have changed [1:21:03] the formula [1:21:04] back to this split formula [1:21:06] where states pay about half [1:21:07] and the federal government [1:21:08] pays half. [1:21:08] And I think it was [1:21:09] an $800 billion savings [1:21:11] over about 10 years. [1:21:14] And so we have to do the fraud. [1:21:16] We have to police the fraud. [1:21:17] We should be learning [1:21:18] from what you guys [1:21:19] are doing [1:21:19] with investigative reporting. [1:21:21] We should hire investigators. [1:21:22] If we like inspector generals [1:21:24] why don't they have [1:21:25] a team of investigators [1:21:27] that are going out [1:21:28] and doing what you're doing? [1:21:29] So we should do that. [1:21:30] But we also have to [1:21:32] as a legislature [1:21:33] look at these ratios [1:21:35] and at these split performances. [1:21:37] And you have to connect them. [1:21:40] The people paying [1:21:41] have to be doing the oversight. [1:21:43] Some of it's happening [1:21:43] but only because [1:21:44] you've brought it to light. [1:21:45] Without these videos [1:21:46] that some are calling [1:21:47] sensationalistic [1:21:48] there'd be none of this. [1:21:50] It just went on [1:21:51] year after year [1:21:52] decade after decade. [1:21:53] And I think this is [1:21:55] the tip of the iceberg. [1:21:56] And I commend you [1:21:57] for what you've both done [1:21:59] with exposing this. [1:22:00] As far as the subpoena power [1:22:02] I'm happy to work [1:22:03] with Senator Johnson on this. [1:22:05] And I think we can look into [1:22:07] particularly the harvesting. [1:22:09] You know in Wisconsin [1:22:09] when they had the difficulty [1:22:12] or the mass mail-in ballots [1:22:14] in 2020 [1:22:15] when probably what [1:22:17] over half of your ballots [1:22:18] were cast by mail [1:22:19] there were said to be [1:22:21] a hundred thousand [1:22:21] that weren't even signed. [1:22:22] You know that there was [1:22:23] no witness signature. [1:22:25] But we should be looking [1:22:26] into the harvesting. [1:22:27] If there is evidence [1:22:28] that with harvesting [1:22:29] people are harvesting ballots [1:22:31] in an illegal [1:22:32] or illegitimate way [1:22:33] that should be looked into. [1:22:35] And so I'm happy [1:22:36] to look at these companies [1:22:37] and we are happy [1:22:39] to work with both of you [1:22:40] on any information [1:22:41] you have to bring to us. [1:22:42] And I for one commend you [1:22:44] for your work on this [1:22:45] and what you brought [1:22:46] to our attention. [1:22:46] I think Senator Johnson [1:22:49] had another question or two. [1:22:50] I do and you know [1:22:51] quite honestly along [1:22:51] the same lines [1:22:52] that you know [1:22:53] Mr. Hitler got it. [1:22:55] Aren't you as disappointed [1:22:58] as I am? [1:22:58] I've been doing this [1:22:59] for now 16 years. [1:23:00] We've had Pogo come in. [1:23:02] I've been supportive of IGs. [1:23:03] I've been supportive of the GAO. [1:23:06] It just hasn't worked. [1:23:07] I know in your testimony [1:23:08] you say that IGs [1:23:09] have saved $71 billion. [1:23:11] I mean that's probably [1:23:12] a self-reported [1:23:14] self-serving type of report. [1:23:16] We still have $250 to $250 billion [1:23:19] to a trillion dollars [1:23:21] of fraud occurring. [1:23:23] It's just not working [1:23:24] and Senator Paolo [1:23:26] is putting his finger [1:23:28] on the problem here. [1:23:29] When it's free money [1:23:30] you don't care about it. [1:23:33] I mean in his opening statement [1:23:34] he talked about [1:23:34] what private sector companies [1:23:36] do to prevent fraud [1:23:37] on the front end. [1:23:38] That's what we have to do. [1:23:40] So again I would really [1:23:42] encourage Pogo to [1:23:43] you know rather than [1:23:44] let's fund more IGs [1:23:45] let's put more money [1:23:46] into GAO. [1:23:47] I mean again [1:23:47] I'm supportive of it [1:23:48] if it would work [1:23:49] but it doesn't [1:23:50] and recognize that [1:23:52] so we're going to have [1:23:53] to completely reform [1:23:56] how those bodies operate [1:23:59] but we've got to look [1:24:01] at the root cause [1:24:02] of these things. [1:24:03] We have to align [1:24:04] the incentives. [1:24:05] I mean the 9 to 1 match [1:24:06] is just [1:24:07] it's legalized fraud [1:24:08] in Medicaid [1:24:10] in provider fees [1:24:12] provider taxes. [1:24:13] That's not health care. [1:24:15] I literally had [1:24:16] a hospital lobby me [1:24:17] when you know [1:24:18] we passed [1:24:18] the big beautiful bill [1:24:19] that was going to [1:24:21] restrain the percent [1:24:23] of provider taxes. [1:24:26] Wisconsin was pretty low [1:24:26] I think 1.8. [1:24:28] Passed the bill [1:24:28] right away [1:24:29] to go to 6% [1:24:30] and apparently [1:24:33] didn't do it quickly enough [1:24:33] so Dr. Oz [1:24:34] wasn't going to give us [1:24:35] the waiver [1:24:36] to allow us to increase [1:24:37] the provider tax [1:24:38] up to 6%. [1:24:39] So you had a hospital [1:24:40] you know [1:24:42] through an intermediary [1:24:43] lobbying me to say [1:24:44] try and get Dr. Oz [1:24:46] to grant us that waiver [1:24:47] because this is what [1:24:48] we'll be able to [1:24:49] we'll be able to [1:24:49] charge a $12 million [1:24:51] provider tax [1:24:53] we'll get reimbursed [1:24:54] for $18 million [1:24:55] so we'll come up [1:24:57] $6 million ahead. [1:24:59] They're not even thinking [1:25:00] I mean [1:25:00] you literally are [1:25:02] asking for government [1:25:04] to allow you [1:25:05] to tax your customers [1:25:07] $12 million [1:25:07] so you can make [1:25:08] additional 6. [1:25:10] Again it's legalized fraud. [1:25:12] So until we're [1:25:13] until we are willing [1:25:14] to address [1:25:15] the root cause [1:25:16] of problem [1:25:17] that all this [1:25:18] free federal [1:25:18] federal government [1:25:19] money is not being [1:25:21] administered by the [1:25:22] stakes properly [1:25:23] they don't care [1:25:23] they don't care [1:25:24] to check eligibility [1:25:25] they get credit [1:25:26] for providing all [1:25:27] this health care [1:25:28] for all their citizens [1:25:29] they don't care [1:25:30] about the eligibility [1:25:31] they don't care [1:25:31] that a third [1:25:32] of the hospice centers [1:25:33] are in Los Angeles [1:25:34] County [1:25:35] that when you defund [1:25:36] 400 of them [1:25:37] none of them [1:25:37] even complain [1:25:38] they just don't care [1:25:40] so I guess [1:25:40] that's my question [1:25:42] to you [1:25:42] you know [1:25:43] Hattapoga [1:25:44] which I think [1:25:44] is a great organization [1:25:45] focus on the root [1:25:47] cause [1:25:48] focus on the legalized [1:25:49] fraud [1:25:49] the way these programs [1:25:50] are set up [1:25:51] you want to comment [1:25:52] on that [1:25:53] yes please [1:25:53] if you wouldn't mind [1:25:54] senator [1:25:54] thank you so much [1:25:55] one thing I just [1:25:57] want to point out [1:25:57] and this has been [1:25:58] brought up a couple [1:25:58] other times [1:25:59] but GAO [1:26:00] inspector general [1:26:01] these oversight entities [1:26:02] they are at their [1:26:02] core providers [1:26:04] of information [1:26:04] they have no power [1:26:05] to change legislation [1:26:06] or change policy [1:26:07] when they expose [1:26:08] things or when [1:26:09] they tell you [1:26:10] here's how you [1:26:10] can save x amount [1:26:11] of dollars [1:26:12] they can't [1:26:12] actualize that [1:26:13] savings [1:26:14] they can come [1:26:15] to congress [1:26:16] and ask you all [1:26:16] to do those things [1:26:17] but then it's up to congress [1:26:18] congress is the body [1:26:19] that can actually [1:26:20] change the law [1:26:21] change policy [1:26:22] so I think it's just [1:26:23] like a little bit [1:26:23] unfair to say [1:26:25] the reason we still [1:26:26] have fraud [1:26:26] is because GAO [1:26:27] and IG [1:26:27] I completely agree [1:26:28] GAO has all these [1:26:29] reports [1:26:30] but they don't get [1:26:31] implemented [1:26:31] and they don't get [1:26:32] implemented [1:26:33] because [1:26:33] if you say [1:26:35] you want to actually [1:26:36] reduce the legalized [1:26:37] fraud in Medicaid [1:26:38] we get accused [1:26:39] of slashing it [1:26:40] do you realize [1:26:40] Medicaid is up [1:26:41] 10% [1:26:42] year over year [1:26:43] we didn't cut [1:26:44] Medicaid [1:26:45] we didn't even [1:26:46] begin to control [1:26:47] it [1:26:47] didn't even [1:26:49] scratch the surface [1:26:50] that's my point [1:26:52] here [1:26:52] we need to understand [1:26:53] how pervasive [1:26:54] and how rampant [1:26:55] this fraud is [1:26:56] we need to address [1:26:57] the actual problem [1:26:59] how these laws [1:27:00] are written [1:27:00] to be taken advantage [1:27:01] of [1:27:02] to create fraud [1:27:03] to let the fraud [1:27:04] get away [1:27:04] we didn't talk [1:27:05] about potentially [1:27:06] the foreign [1:27:06] organization of this [1:27:09] correct [1:27:10] I mean [1:27:10] $700 million [1:27:12] in cash [1:27:13] flowing out of [1:27:13] Minneapolis airport [1:27:14] back to [1:27:15] countries in Africa [1:27:18] have either of you [1:27:19] gentlemen [1:27:20] kind of investigated [1:27:21] the foreign sourcing [1:27:22] or an organization [1:27:23] of a lot of this fraud [1:27:24] I mean [1:27:24] we're opening it up [1:27:25] to foreign governments [1:27:26] to fund their own [1:27:27] operations [1:27:28] well yeah [1:27:29] it's been proven [1:27:29] that a lot of the money [1:27:30] in suitcases [1:27:31] that left Minnesota [1:27:32] went back [1:27:32] into the hands [1:27:33] of people inside [1:27:34] Somalia [1:27:34] and for instance [1:27:36] in New York City [1:27:37] where I just did [1:27:38] an expose exposing [1:27:39] this adult daycare fraud [1:27:40] nobody at these daycares [1:27:42] actually knows [1:27:42] who the owner is [1:27:43] a lot of them [1:27:44] had just been hired [1:27:45] within the past month [1:27:46] in Miami [1:27:48] you have the Cuban government [1:27:49] running these DME companies [1:27:51] that are fleecing [1:27:52] and quite literally [1:27:53] looting from Medicaid [1:27:54] a lot of foreign governments [1:27:56] have infiltrated [1:27:57] our Medicaid [1:27:57] because it's so simple [1:27:58] and so easy [1:27:59] to defraud [1:28:00] by the way [1:28:00] we know it's $700 million [1:28:02] because government [1:28:03] watched it go out [1:28:04] they let it go [1:28:06] they didn't even [1:28:07] put the IRS [1:28:08] on the case [1:28:09] it's truly remarkable [1:28:11] what we're allowing [1:28:12] to happen here [1:28:13] so again Mr. Chairman [1:28:14] I commend you [1:28:16] like Senator Ernst [1:28:17] for holding this hearing [1:28:17] and you know [1:28:18] Ashley Moody [1:28:19] this is an incredibly [1:28:20] important hearing [1:28:21] and it speaks volumes [1:28:22] that only the ranking [1:28:25] member showed up [1:28:26] to denigrate [1:28:27] Mr. Shirley's efforts [1:28:28] quite honestly [1:28:29] that was why [1:28:30] he showed up [1:28:31] and not one of them [1:28:32] are here [1:28:32] talking about [1:28:33] these hundreds of billions [1:28:35] trillions of dollars [1:28:36] worth of fraud [1:28:36] that we can't allow [1:28:38] to continue [1:28:39] because we are [1:28:39] mortgageeering the future [1:28:40] but thank you Mr. Chairman [1:28:41] the autism centers [1:28:43] that were abusing this [1:28:45] it's under [1:28:46] which program [1:28:48] and did they sign up [1:28:49] in the state [1:28:49] how do you sign up [1:28:50] for the program [1:28:51] it's underneath Medicaid [1:28:52] I can't say exactly [1:28:53] what one it is [1:28:54] but it's part of Medicaid [1:28:55] part of Medicaid [1:28:56] yeah [1:28:56] and so it gets back [1:28:57] to this overarching [1:28:58] I mean if we're talking [1:28:59] big pools of money [1:29:00] Medicaid is this [1:29:00] big pool of money [1:29:01] but it's a split [1:29:02] between the federal [1:29:03] and the state government [1:29:04] and we do have to look at it [1:29:07] it's the only way [1:29:08] we fix this [1:29:08] and the thing is [1:29:10] is people look at it [1:29:11] and they say [1:29:11] oh you'd want to take away [1:29:12] health care from poor people [1:29:13] there's another way [1:29:15] of looking at this [1:29:16] is what about preserving [1:29:17] health care for the very [1:29:18] poor people who do need it [1:29:19] and getting rid of [1:29:20] you know somebody [1:29:21] who's able-bodied [1:29:22] who's lying about a disability [1:29:23] and is on Medicaid [1:29:25] is actually taking money [1:29:26] away from a deserving person [1:29:28] so I think there's another way [1:29:29] of looking at that [1:29:30] but people are very very fearful [1:29:32] of any kind of dollars [1:29:33] they think every [1:29:34] if you were to cut one dollar [1:29:35] from Medicaid [1:29:36] that it's being taken away [1:29:37] but if they can be made [1:29:39] to see that [1:29:40] yeah you're taking away [1:29:41] from some guy stealing [1:29:42] 10, 15, 20 million [1:29:44] or 700 million dollars [1:29:46] so I think this is a good hearing [1:29:48] and I think this may lead us [1:29:50] to some other things [1:29:51] that we can talk about [1:29:52] both with [1:29:53] in the voting fraud atmosphere [1:29:55] as well as more [1:29:56] so keep in touch with us [1:29:57] and let us know more [1:29:58] did you have a final comment [1:29:59] Senator Ertz [1:29:59] that you want to make? [1:30:02] Of course [1:30:03] we always have a final comment [1:30:04] but no again [1:30:06] just really appreciate [1:30:07] our witnesses coming today [1:30:09] and sharing information [1:30:11] with us [1:30:11] and just reinforcing [1:30:13] that we need to do our job [1:30:15] as Congress as well [1:30:16] to ensure that [1:30:18] when we do identify [1:30:21] areas of fraud [1:30:22] and loopholes that exist [1:30:24] within our code [1:30:26] that we take the initiative [1:30:28] and close it up [1:30:29] but I would remind people [1:30:30] that in order to do that [1:30:32] we do have to have participation [1:30:34] from the members on the left [1:30:36] because in the Senate [1:30:37] we do require [1:30:39] bipartisan movement [1:30:40] on any piece of legislation [1:30:42] that comes to the Senate floor [1:30:44] so if they're not even willing [1:30:45] to engage in a hearing [1:30:48] then it's unlikely [1:30:50] that they're actually going [1:30:51] to engage in code [1:30:54] or law [1:30:55] that will help us [1:30:56] prevent fraud [1:30:57] and recover those dollars [1:30:58] for our American taxpayers [1:31:00] so thanks for not only [1:31:02] exposing fraud today [1:31:04] but exposing that we don't have support [1:31:07] from the left [1:31:08] on preventing fraud [1:31:09] and actually moving legislation [1:31:11] that would solve the problem [1:31:13] so again [1:31:15] thank you all [1:31:16] for being here today [1:31:17] thanks to the chair [1:31:18] for being willing [1:31:19] to hold this hearing [1:31:20] I'd like to thank our witnesses [1:31:21] for joining us today [1:31:22] to share their testimony [1:31:23] and expertise [1:31:24] with the committee [1:31:25] the record for this hearing [1:31:26] will remain open [1:31:26] until 5 p.m. on Friday [1:31:28] July 17th [1:31:29] 2026 [1:31:30] for the submission of statements [1:31:31] and questions for the record [1:31:33] the hearing is now adjourned [1:31:34] thank you