Interview with John Kerry on Climate Summit • FRANCE 24 English

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: He was a major player at the two-day Paris Climate Finance Summit that's just concluded. Former U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry is Joe Biden's special presidential envoy for climate. Thank you for joining us here on France 24. My great pleasure. Thank you for having me. Lots to talk about coming out of these two days. But first, I've got to say, Americans don't do half measures. Donald Trump pulled out of the Paris Climate Deal, and then Joe Biden not only goes back in, but goes in with this huge green investment plan, huge subsidies, hundreds of billions of dollars, which, by the way, have attracted investors from around the globe. [00:00:45] John Kerry: Yep, they have. Well, you know, I don't think it's a definition of what Americans do. I think that it's a definition of what happens when you have somebody who is, you know, out of touch completely and doesn't inform themselves and who makes a decision based on God knows what. Pulling out of the Paris Agreement was really hurtful for America. But in the end, Americans stayed in the agreement. All across our country, the American people wanted to continue to make progress, and we did. And even during Donald Trump's tenure, about 75 percent of all the new electricity that came online in the United States was from renewables. That's a remarkable story. And so I would like to, you know, Donald Trump may have pulled out of it, but the American people stayed in. And now President Biden is making up for that with a remarkable set of initiatives that are helping to make a difference in terms of the meetings we've had in the last two years, in Glasgow, Sharm el-Sheikh, and now we're working to try to make a difference. [00:01:50] Speaker 1: That energy transition bill, known as the Inflation Reduction Act, it turbocharges. We hope so. [00:01:59] John Kerry: And, yes, there's evidence that it's really having a good impact. [00:02:02] Speaker 1: Now, the jury's still out because there's been a bit of a subsidy war now that's born of that, with Europe, most notably. And that's – everybody needs to get their energy transition in high gear. But is that taking money away from those countries that were present at this summit? If you're building a seawall or solar panels, would you rather send your money to the United States or to West Africa? [00:02:29] John Kerry: Well, I don't think it's a neither-or. It's not a binary choice. The fact is that President Biden has energized – no pun intended – efforts in America in order to do our part, because it's a global effort. Every country needs to be at the table. And President Biden's making certain that the United States is going to meet its goals. [00:02:50] Speaker 1: But the investment money is finite. [00:02:52] John Kerry: Yeah. But no. Actually, there are trillions of dollars waiting to be invested. That's what President Macron was addressing in this particular conference, is how do we take those trillions of dollars and excite them to get into the marketplace now in developing economies, emerging economies? And, you know, but those economies, by the way, are not where the problem of the climate crisis is emanating from. There are 20 countries, the largest economies in the world, that are responsible for almost 80 percent of all the emissions that are creating the problem. So what the president – what President Macron is trying to do, and all of us are trying to do, is find a way to get the trillions of dollars needed for this energy transition to be deployed, to be invested, so that we accelerate the transition. And the president, President Macron, assembled about $37 trillion of assets owned and managed in the one room, listening to how we can come together to deploy some of that money. So we need to de-risk, we need to help that money feel more comfortable in being invested in some of these trickier places. [00:04:07] Speaker 1: But again, these are not charities. These are private companies or sovereign wealth funds, and they want a return on their buck. And they will get a return on their buck. [00:04:17] John Kerry: That's the whole point. But what we need to do is get the fear out of the atmosphere and address some of their concerns. And there are concerns. You know, is the legal system such that we can arbitrate or take care of a problem if there is a problem? Will our money be safer here than it might be somewhere else? There are currency challenges. There are political challenges. So everybody has to kind of step up and begin to take the risk factor out of those investments and help deploy that money. A lot of different suggestions were put on the table in the last 48 hours. And I think it was really interesting, actually, hearing from a lot of the leaders from Africa and Latin America and elsewhere who came here to have this discussion. [00:05:08] Speaker 1: Yeah, and when it comes to investing and borrowing, a major player is China, represented by its prime minister at this conference. Do you exchange with Li Keqiang? [00:05:18] John Kerry: We had a very brief hello and an opportunity to say hi as we were moving in and out of the thing. I didn't have a formal meeting, but it was worthwhile, and I'm glad I was able to have a brief discussion with him. Climate is one issue where both President Xi and President Biden have said we should not be the prisoners of other issues that we are concerned about and we have differences on. We need all of us to deal with the climate challenge. So my hope is that that will open up an opportunity for China and the United States to cooperate again, as we were last year and before, in order to try to accelerate the transition. [00:05:57] Speaker 1: One of the big issues, China was involved in this, is how to get over the line debt restructuring. There's some 50 countries in the world that are either in default or close to it. And after coming out of COVID and with inflation that's gone up these past years, there was a deal on the sidelines for Zambia. And again, this involved in part China. Is it something, though, when you look at the task at hand, how do you stop these countries from falling back into a debt trap? [00:06:34] John Kerry: Well, the debt trap is a serious concern, and we all share a recognition that the current policies of the World Bank, of the multilateral development banks, IMF, etc., they need to be fine-tuned, they need to be brought into this moment, 2023, climate crisis, and the need to be able to liberate these countries from the amazing burden that they have at certain times. For instance, if you have a massive hurricane or a cyclone or a huge flood like in Pakistan, if you're burdened with greater debt, you can't respond. You can't take care of the people, and you can't do the things you need to do to move forward on avoiding those crises in the future, adapting, hardening your defenses. [00:07:25] Speaker 1: Those institutions you talk about, of course, they answer to their shareholders, the largest ones in the United States, for both the World Bank and the IMF. [00:07:31] John Kerry: That's exactly why you need this meeting, because you need to address the legitimate concerns of people whose money that they have in a fund comes from people who expect you to make money or at least protect their money. You have pensioners. Pension funds are invested. You can't put pension funds at risk in an investment where you don't have an adequate sense of fiduciary confidence that it's going to be protected. [00:07:58] Speaker 1: But the criticism leveled at the United States is that there should be a recapitalization. There needs to be more money for the IMF and the World Bank. Well, there are ways to – yeah, but there are ways to – And to do that, does that mean the U.S.'s share at the board is diluted? [00:08:15] John Kerry: There is, at this point in time, no one's judgment that I've heard who's involved in this world of finance and efforts to try to fix the MDBs, the multilateral development banks. Who is saying we need a new capital infusion. What we need is to use the existing rules to their fullest capacity in order to be able to lend more money. And you can lend more money without having a capital infusion. If you – I mean, there have been very tough restraints on the way in which the banks have behaved, which don't – if you get rid of them, those restraints, it doesn't threaten your AAA rating. So what people want to do is try to first move to unleash these banks from restrictive interpretations of existing rules. Then, after that, if we don't have enough, maybe it'll be time to consider whether you need a capital infusion. Because you need a lot. You talked about trillions yourself. Four trillion or so every year for the next seven years and maybe beyond. And at least one trillion of that has to go to the developing world. I think more than that may go to the developing world. But the developing world right now would be hard-pressed to be able to produce the projects that are going to take a full trillion dollars. But over a period of time, that will accelerate and you'll be able to use a significant amount of this money on this transition. But part of – this is important – 20 major economies of the world equal 80 percent of all the emissions. Those 20 countries are pretty developed, and so they need to be taking steps to address their transition. Many of them are the EU, UK, Japan, Korea, Canada, the United States. All of those entities have adopted plans that, if they implement them, can keep the 1.5-degree target in range. About 10 countries have not yet raised their ambition to a level that actually keeps faith with the Paris accord, the Paris agreement. Are you including China in that? Well, China still has to raise some ambition, even as China has done an amazing job of deploying more renewables than anyone else in the world. So China is moving very rapidly to try to transition, but we believe there are ways for us to work together to try to be able to do more. And I hope, because China and the United States together equal about 40 percent of all the emissions, if we can't cooperate together, it's really going to be hard to be able to reach the goal. [00:11:10] Speaker 1: Did Joe Biden make your life a little more difficult this week by calling Xi Jinping a dictator? [00:11:15] John Kerry: Well, look, we do not get involved in the back and forth. My counterpart in China, Xi Jinping, is a friend. We've worked together for 20, 25 years. We know each other. We trust each other. It's important to stay away from whatever the political back and forth is. We want to find a way to change this dynamic, to have climate crisis turn into something that could actually, between China and the United States, open up the opportunities for us to work together on other things, too. [00:11:46] Speaker 1: John Kerry, two quick final questions. First of all, what do you say to developing nations who argue that they see the United States going all in behind Ukraine? How come the same kind of amount of money generated, the wartime economy mentality, isn't happening for the developing world here for these sustainable goals? [00:12:07] John Kerry: Well, I've argued that it should be, and I'm in favor of treating this particular challenge right now as if we were at war, because I think we have to organize ourselves in our countries far more effectively to deploy the resources that we have today and to begin to develop the technologies and the resources we need to win this battle. This is a big challenge. A lot of people sort of treat it indifferently or they don't think they can make a difference. Everybody can make a difference in this. And we need everybody to be engaged in this challenge. We have to get electricity to people who don't have it. We need to use the electricity we have today to decarbonize our societies. Or we have to capture the carbon that is the egregious part of creating this challenge that we all face of the warming of the planet, etc. It comes from one thing. It comes from the emissions that come from the burning of fossil fuels that are not trapped, caught. And if we don't catch them, then we're going to continue to add to this problem. So this is not a rocket science challenge. We don't have to sit around and scratch our heads and say, what's doing this? We know what's doing this. It's the way we propel our vehicles, the way we heat our homes, the way we light our studios and our homes and factories. That's what has to change. It has to become carbon-free. And the faster we get there, the better chance we have of avoiding the worst consequences. [00:13:44] Speaker 1: In the meantime, my brother this summer is going to be hosting me at his seaside home in Brittany where it rains a lot. He's joked that we'll soon be refugee climates, climate refugees at his house. I know you have longstanding ties to Brittany. I do. Is it going to be the new Saint-Tropez? [00:14:02] John Kerry: Well, it certainly is a place to escape the unbearable heat and to find a terrific climate for the summertime. There's no question about that. It's hot in a lot of places, and that heat is going to drive people to other places. It already is in many parts of the world. In fact, we're losing literally millions of people to extreme heat in various parts of the world. We're losing 8 million people a year to the air pollution that comes from greenhouse gas emissions. So I think there are a lot of places that people will seek for refuge. It may well be that Brittany is one, but I'm trying not to overcrowded it at this point. We can help it. [00:14:43] Speaker 1: John Kerry, so many thanks for speaking with us here on France 24. [00:14:45] John Kerry: My pleasure to be with you. [00:14:47] Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us here.