How to Be Kind in a Mean World with Oprah and Dr. Jay Van Bavel

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: - Why does it seem like people are so mean these days? Have you all noticed? It feels like people have gotten meaner, like civility has left the building. [00:00:10] Speaker 2: So what is going on? - The environment around us has changed and it's triggering us to be mean. - I was so surprised to read this, [00:00:17] Speaker 1: that healthcare is America's most dangerous profession due to workplace violence. And you've had things thrown at you is what I'm saying. [00:00:27] Speaker 3: - Oh, 100%. - The patient broke my nurse's hand. [00:00:30] Speaker 1: - There's something about flying that seems to bring out just the worst in people. What's the worst thing somebody said to you? [00:00:37] Speaker 4: - I had a gentleman that said to me, "I violate women like you." [00:00:42] Speaker 1: - Wow. So what is the path forward? Can you give us a reason to hope that things are gonna get better? [00:00:48] Speaker 2: - I mean, I have lots of answers to that. - I know you do. [00:00:54] Speaker 1: Hi, everybody. Thanks for joining me on "The Oprah Podcast." A heartfelt welcome to this audience, who all look so great, and worked on looking great this morning. Congratulations to yourselves. Really impressed. I had a conversation on this podcast, actually, with Kristen Cabot. Many of you may have seen it. She's the woman who was on that Coldplay Kiss Cam video that went viral all over the world. So viral. I mean, when they told me that it had 300 billion views, I couldn't believe it, 'cause I was like, "Well, there's only 8 billion people on the planet. How does 300 billion people see it?" Apparently, people were passing it around, and sharing it and sharing. And she told me about just the deluge of vitriol that was directed at her online, which obviously was bad enough. But people also had the nerve, after her address was put on the radio, to drive by her house and even walk up to her in public, in front of her children to verbally attack her, just saying mean, awful things. And of course, as we talked about on that show, she even received death threats. Okay. And I feel so strongly, y'all can say what you want, but I feel strongly that she did not deserve that on any level for being out with her boss, okay? So after talking with Kristen, I kept wondering what is happening to us in this world? Why does it seem like people are so mean these days? Have y'all noticed? Yes. It feels like people have gotten meaner, right? Like civility has left the building. And then I found out I'm not alone in feeling this way. Take a look. [00:02:43] Speaker 3: Y'all, I just got on a target, and I'm about to lose my freaking mind. People are so rude. Um... [00:02:51] Speaker 5: What's wrong with people? We have lost all sense of humanity and compassion. We have. We've lost it. I don't understand mean people. I don't understand how you wake up in the morning, and your first thought is, "How do I be as mean as possible today?" [00:03:07] Speaker 1: You can't stand mean people. Go to therapy. Take a pottery class. Go hug a tree. I don't know, but sort out your issues. [00:03:15] Speaker 6: I mean, like, people don't hold doors anymore. They don't say, "Please, thank you. You're welcome." People don't care how they speak to you, how they make you feel. Everybody's just so insensitive, and I can't understand what happened. Like, what made everybody like this? [00:03:26] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly what we're asking today. So, you know, there's a recent study that found that 53% of Americans believe that society is uncivil. More than a third say that they almost always often see people behaving rudely when they go out in public. And to help us understand what is at the root of this, I'm joined by Dr. Jay van Bevel. Now, he says I can call him Dr. Jay. Yeah. You're the other one. The other one. So, that's what we're going to be doing today. Dr. Jay is a professor of psychology and neuroscience at New York University, and the director of the NYU Center for Conflict and Cooperation. He's also the co-author of "The Power of Us." "The Power of Us." Great title, right? "The Power of Us: Harnessing Our Shared Identities to Improve Performance, Increase Cooperation, and Promote Social Harmony." Thank you so much for having me, Oprah. [00:04:28] Speaker 2: So, what is going on? I'm a social psychologist, so what that means to me is, what in our environments have changed? Social psychologist means you study this stuff. Yeah, I study this stuff. I do research on this and been studying it for 20 years. And the main lesson when you see this is not that humans have become meaner. Human nature has not really changed in the last decade or more. It has not. It has not. And so, when you see people becoming meaner to one another, including online, what you have to understand is that the environment around us has changed, and it's triggering us to be mean and lack a sense of civility towards one another. [00:05:04] Speaker 1: Okay, so if it's triggering us to be mean, that means they've become meaner. [00:05:09] Speaker 2: Our behaviors become meaner. Our human nature has not changed. And so, what that means is... We're basically good? Well, we can be better. If you change the environment, people will be less mean. So, people are being mean because of the environment? Yes. Okay, explain that. Okay. So, there's lots of reasons why people become mean or lack civility. One of it is when you're under stress. So, like, when people are struggling financially, that is something that can trigger them to lash out more. They're under a lot of cognitive distress when that's happening. They're thinking about it all the time. They have a hard time regulating themselves. So, that's kind of what's bubbling up from a lot of people. They're facing stressors in their own life that have increased. [00:05:51] Speaker 1: But this isn't the first time in the world that people have faced stressors. I mean, people went through the depression and people were still kind to each other and trying to help their neighbors and had the attitude of, like, if you're in trouble, then your family's in trouble. We're going to help your family. I mean, I... [00:06:09] Speaker 2: Okay, so... Okay, so you're 100% right. So, we've faced these other stressors before and haven't acted this way, okay? Right. So, the stressors are increasing, but then what's happening in our social environment? And the things that are happening is there's less of a sense of us, a sense of common connection and purpose. And so, people are more disconnected and isolated than ever. They're rewarded for that when they go online. There's not really a strong sense of treating somebody who's different than you as part of your community. And then the other thing is that our norms have eroded. That we see other people acting like this and that makes it more acceptable for us to do it. And so, when you tell about the story of Kristin Cabot, no one might have done that. But once they see, you know, tens or hundreds or thousands of other people mocking her, ridiculing her, shaming her, they feel an urge to do it, too. Partly, it's because human nature is we look to other people like us to see what they're doing, and then we do the same thing. [00:07:07] Speaker 1: So, is it also because of, I mean, social media gets blamed for a lot of things, but this is also because of the anonymity involved in social media, that you can say mean things, act however you want to act, and nobody naturally knows who you are. [00:07:22] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a few things in social media. So, one of it is you can be really mean as an anonymous person. You control others, and some people do that. But a lot of people are actually doing it under their own name, from their own accounts. And part of the reason they do it is because one of the things that gets rewarded on social media is expressing moral outrage. Yeah. And so, some people are feeling moral outrage. They're projecting their own issues into the situation. But other people are seeing the outrage and feeling like, "Oh, I better express mine so I signal that I'm a good person." That's where you start to get the pylon, where you say 300 billion people saw it, and there's this massive pylon. It's because of all of these things kind of getting amplified. And then you have technology, the algorithms, are amplifying whatever's driving engagement. [00:08:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought it was interesting that a celebrity, this is Doja Cat, recently was talking about Timothee Chalamet, and then later posted that she shouldn't have been talking about Timothee Chalamet. Did you all see that post? She then said, "You know, I shouldn't have even been posting about that because what I really needed was a hug." Yeah. And what I really needed was, you know, and that she was doing that to show her moral outrage because she thought she would get a lot of people who would be supporting that. And I thought that was really brave of her, insightful of her, and a really great sense of self-awareness to actually say that. Because most people do it and they don't even know that's why they're doing it. Exactly. Yeah. [00:08:49] Speaker 2: They either don't know that's why they're doing it, or they don't want to admit it. Yes. [00:08:56] Speaker 1: Everything I do begins with intention. You become exactly what you believe is possible. Especially the Oprah Podcast. You're doing good, Aiden. I believe when people share their personal journeys with authenticity. [00:09:11] Speaker 7: Never thought of it like that. I love that you've never thought of it that way before. [00:09:15] Speaker 1: And with intention, something beautiful happens. We recognize pieces of our own lives in theirs. We realize that actually helps, right? We are not alone. Life is a journey, and how we navigate it matters. That's why I am so excited to welcome our friends at GEICO as the official insurance partner for the Oprah Podcast. For 90 years, GEICO has been there for the highs and the lows, with people through life's exciting moments, and supporting them when the road takes an unexpected turn. GEICO's protection has given customers the peace of mind to keep moving forward. And that support matters at every point along the way. A first car. A new home. A teenager learning to drive. A delay. A breakdown. A claim. These are the moments that remind us why it matters to feel protected before life changes course. And GEICO is there to make the journey more manageable. To help guide you with insurance designed to keep you covered through it all. Because life happens in ways we can't always predict. And with the right support, we keep driving forward. And that, dear listener, is everything. So you say that life in America today is like being a child in a family where the parents are constantly fighting. And I remember many years ago hearing an expert say that when you fight in front of your children, you change who they are. Yes. So how is that affecting us if we are like a child in a family where the parents are constantly fighting? [00:11:05] Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay. So what we're talking about there is the psychological impact and the stress that causes on kids. And so when kids are in a home where the parents are fighting all the time, it causes them stress. You can measure it in their physiology. But also they become very sensitive to anything that might be distressing in their environment. They see threats that might not even be there. And so they're hyper-attuned to potential threats. And so when you live in a universe where the parents are always fighting with one another, that causes us stress. But it also makes us hypersensitive to seeing threats in our environment. [00:11:39] Speaker 1: And the reason we feel that way is because we're surrounded by it everywhere, right? You turn on the news and it causes a sense of tension. And even though you don't think you're taking it in, it allows you to be stressful. [00:11:51] Speaker 2: It's not only stressful, but then it's a role model. So one of the big things we talk about with parents is how they become good role models. If our leaders in society are acting like that, then also we are more likely to think it's acceptable ourselves. [00:12:04] Speaker 1: Absolutely. So I understand that there's a new Stanford study found that AI chatbots are actually making people behave worse in real life. [00:12:14] Speaker 2: How is that possible? Okay, so we just talked about social media as one technology and engagement-based algorithms amplifying this. Okay, so now let's talk about the new technology. Yes. The fastest growing technology in human history is artificial intelligence. Just out of curiosity, how many people here have talked to a chatbot? Okay, so you have like 90-80% of people in this room. Chatbots are also designed to keep us engaged. Mm-hmm. And so one of the features this new study found that you mentioned is that they are 50% more sycophantic than real humans. So if you're interacting with a chatbot, it's going to tell you you're brilliant, you're right. Okay, so what is the consequences of that? We've heard about these delusions and mental health spirals from people, But it can actually harm our relationships. Yeah. So the study that you mentioned, they find that if you're talking about, let's say conflict in your family or with a good friend, and you're asking your chatbot for advice. It's going to agree with you. It agrees with you. And so you... It's going to tell you you're right. It tells you you're right. And so if you know you're right, then you're not going to make an effort to repair the relationship. We also study it in my lab at NYU. And what we find is if you're talking about value-based issues, it tells you you're right. And then you become more extreme and more overconfident in your beliefs. And the other thing, and this is the worst part, Oprah, is that people don't even see it. They have a blind spot to it. Because everybody loves to hear how brilliant they are. And when they hear that, they're thinking, "Oh, of course." It just affirms them. Yeah, it just affirms them. [00:13:40] Speaker 1: It affirms them. Yeah, we did a whole podcast on this. People are, you know, falling in love with their chatbot. Unfortunately, people are also harming themselves because of their chatbot. So there's something about flying, though, that seems to bring out just the worst in people. And it didn't always be that way. I'm old enough to have been in the era where people actually dressed up to go on flights. It was such a big deal to be on a flight. Like, you're wearing gloves and dressing up and stuff. Not anymore. People barely bathe. Yes. So the Department of Transportation reports that the number of unruly passenger events has doubled since 2019. With one in five flight attendants reporting experiencing physical incidents. Watch this. "I'm a f***ing night f***ing night f***ing. [00:14:40] Speaker 8: I am, son of a f***ing... We are in a f***ing team camp with a baby in a f***ing echo chamber. And you want to talk to me about being f***ing, okay?" [00:15:05] Speaker 1: Wow. [00:15:06] Speaker 2: Why does it show up on airplanes so much? Okay, so airplanes are not the internet. What's happening on airplanes? This is real life. So I said, the situation is different, right? From when you flew. And when I remember flying my first few times, you never saw anything like this. And so what's happening is that something has changed in their environment. And what I would say is, first of all, if you're on a flight, a lot of the seats have gotten smaller and smaller. Someone mentioned we're all in this tin can together. So it's a distressing experience. Now, I'm going to tell you about a study, Oprah, that kind of explains a little bit of the new situation. The research finds, this is a great study, they find if people enter a plane and they have to walk past all the first class seats before they get to theirs, they're far more likely to experience air rage. So what is it that's triggering it? What is it that's triggering it? They're seeing, oh, these people have way more than me. Yeah. And then I'm crammed in this tiny seat and that is more likely to make them feel resentful and frustrated and lash out. Okay. Well, Cher knows this very well, the other Cher. [00:16:06] Speaker 1: Hey, Cher. Okay, Cher has been a flight attendant for seven years. And those videos ring true for you? [00:16:12] Speaker 4: Unfortunately, yes. Aviation has not been exempt from the decline in civility. I say I make the best dinner party guests because I have so many stories. Yeah. Um, and I've come across behavior that has just left me speechless. Um, I've had an incident with a gentleman that while we were conducting cabin service, he needed to use the restroom and typically, you know, we'll pass their row or try to back up to let them use the restroom, especially, you know, once the seatbelt signs off. He went back to his seat, didn't give us a chance to move. And after we had finished service, maybe 20 minutes later, he came to the front galley and was really irate and he's holding a cup. And flight attend to have some spidey senses because we've seen it all. And I asked, sir, what is that? And including foul language, he said it's pee. Um, and he was in a middle seat on a full flight. So, I don't know, the people next to him didn't complain. Um, but he took his cup and dumped it out in the lavatory sink. And I was left, I mean, with nothing to say. All I could say is, sir, you can't do that. That's the only thing I could get out of my mouth. I was just so shocked. Um, and yeah, stories like that, unfortunately, I have plenty of them. [00:17:31] Speaker 1: So, what do you do when you're in a situation where somebody is unruly or potentially violent or upset? What do you do? What are you all trained to do? [00:17:41] Speaker 4: We are trained to defuse. That's our number one priority is defuse the situation. And I think a lot of the time people feel outrage because they want to be heard. And usually with an average person that's maybe upset, they missed their previous flight. You have to assume they've been through really tumultuous situations. I pretty much try to assume on every flight that I work that you have someone that's going to a wedding, going to a baby shower, you have someone that's going to a funeral. You can't, you have to assume that they're going through something when they're traveling. And that's usually true. So, when it comes to handling them, I try to make them feel heard. And obviously, we have limits because there's safety rules and there's other things. You can't make everyone happy. But I try to give two choices that are both, you know, something that's allowed and allow them to feel like they have a little bit of the control back. That typically helps. But with situations like that, I mean, we were moving out of the way to let him use the lavatory, but it didn't make a difference. He was going to do that. [00:18:38] Speaker 1: What's the worst thing somebody said to you? [00:18:40] Speaker 4: I had a gentleman that, through another incident, he said to me, "I violate women like you." Whoa. And that was really, that was one that, I mean, left me speechless. And he suffered, we had law enforcement involved in that, and he suffered no consequences for his actions. [00:18:58] Speaker 1: I violate women like you. [00:18:59] Speaker 4: That was his first response to me. And it just gives you chills. Like you just don't expect, you're locked in a metal tube with someone like that. And, you know, you do your best to vet them at the door, but you don't know who they are or what they're going through when they come on board. [00:19:16] Speaker 1: Do you have a question for Dr. J? [00:19:17] Speaker 4: So I guess I try to look at things in a really positive light. Um, and as somebody that wants to spread positivity, and I'm in a position where I get to meet so many people and spread positivity, what is something that I can do to help with the decline of civility? [00:19:33] Speaker 2: Yeah, so first of all, those stories are awful. No one should have to deal with that. I, I just really, I cringed with the first story and gasped. I'm glad the piece stayed in the cup. I thought he was going to throw it at her. [00:19:43] Speaker 4: Yeah, it did go in the sink. [00:19:45] Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought he was going to throw the pee out. I was more worried about the people sitting next to him when he filled the cup. Yeah, yeah. Um, so, so first of all, you get to touch a lot of people's lives because you're dealing with people all day long, huge groups of them. Yeah. And so I think the first thing, obviously, because you're stuck in this tin can is, is deescalate these situations. I, I, I can see the challenge of you do not want to up escalate. You saw all the videos of what happens when that, that unfolds. But I think the best you can do is try to, uh, you know, make a positive impression on all of the other people. The other thing you might be able to do, so when I saw the videos and I've seen these debates and videos go viral on social media where people are fighting about whether they can like, push back their chair or not. That gets to my, one of my first points to Oprah about norms. The reason you have those, presumably, is because the airplane wants to let you do that. That's part of what you're paying for. But if people don't think that's acceptable, they're going to push back against it. They're fighting against the fact that they don't really see that as a norm anymore. And so I think one of the things you can really control as a flight attendant and people who are like running the airplane is really making it clear what the norms are about how the flight, the staff should be treated, but also how you will treat them and how they should treat one another. And I think like making those very clear is one of the most powerful, powerful things you can do to really kind of change behavior in a positive way. [00:21:04] Speaker 7: Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. [00:21:06] Speaker 2: God bless you. [00:21:06] Speaker 4: Thank you. [00:21:08] Speaker 1: Every day. [00:21:08] Speaker 4: I love what I do. [00:21:11] Speaker 1: That actually helps, right? It actually helps. Thank you, Cher. This is the thing. I was so surprised to read this, that healthcare is America's most dangerous profession due to workplace violence. In fact, there's a staggering 76% of healthcare workers have reported experiencing violence on the job. And Dr. Bhumi Patel is an emergency medicine doctor. And I thank you for being here. We did not know this. Did we know that? But you do. [00:21:45] Speaker 3: I know. I know. 76%? That's three quarters of the healthcare workers. [00:21:53] Speaker 1: Three quarters of the healthcare workers. I thought flight attendants had it bad. No, no, no, no. This is worse. No. And I'm really so surprised. But I have one of my South African daughter girls is a doctor at the University of Pennsylvania doing her residency. And she says that she's going to move into oncology because the experience of being a resident has taught her that it's the cancer patients who actually are the most grateful. Absolutely. And everybody else treats you like... [00:22:25] Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah. The S-word. Absolutely. Yeah. So what is happening in the world? I mean, let's take a look before the pandemic. I know you had a chance to speak to our former Surgeon General, Dr. Murthy. And he pointed it very accurately that we are in a loneliness pandemic. But that's just a very small portion. [00:22:46] Speaker 1: But what are they doing to the healthcare workers? That's why we're all shocked that it's 76 percent... Yeah. [00:22:50] Speaker 3: So that's all connected. We're in a loneliness pandemic. But the healthcare workers saw the mental health pandemic coming ages before COVID did. People were hurting. People are not only physically getting sicker. Mentally, they're in a lot of crisis. And they don't have the support outside in the communities. So healthcare becomes your front lines. Emergency departments become your front lines for mental healthcare. Uh-huh. You're already stressed. Cortisol levels are running high. You're hypervigilant because your environment is already a threat. Now, imagine coming to the most chaotic location possible. Your emergency departments for your care. [00:23:30] Speaker 7: Yeah. [00:23:31] Speaker 3: I see 60 hurt people in a day. I have five minutes to learn your story. That's not enough for you to tell me exactly what your body has been through all these years, what your brain and your psyche has been through all these years. You're already hurt. And now you feel like I don't see you. I don't hear you. I don't validate you. You're going to snap. [00:23:55] Speaker 1: Is that because you, meaning the healthcare workers, are overworked and don't have enough people to service all the people that need helping. This trend to be violent to healthcare workers, is that something new? [00:24:10] Speaker 2: I mean, that was the first time I've heard of those data. But the violence, just the sheer level of violence, Dr. Patel. But I will say that all the things you mentioned as kind of precursors are things that I'm aware about. [00:24:21] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:24:21] Speaker 2: So the rise in mental health problems, the lack of treatment and resources for those, those are happening at university campuses. I see it with my undergraduate students in my class. And then you talked about they're coming in with pain. And then there's also a level of dehumanization because they have this image of these healthcare workers from COVID, where they're all masked up. Yeah. And I'm a New Yorker. So I remember during that wave of first wave of the pandemic, where everybody was a hero, we were out of our windows, trapped in our apartments, cheering at like 7pm every night, banging pots and pans. So what happened? So the problem is you're understaffed. Yeah. And that's not your fault. That's a problem with the system. But a problem is also the norms. Again, I gave a talk and a workshop in Canada to over a thousand doctors and nurses and healthcare staff. And then I met with them after. And the stories they told me about things like conspiracy theories and misinformation. Absolutely. They now don't trust their doctors or their nurses. You give them advice and they don't even believe it. And all the medical health staff told me. Right. Inspiracy theories. Yeah. That's a whole rabbit hole. Yeah. But a lot of medical staff that I talk to are not even trained to deal with that because they're used to being, we're the experts. You come to us for treatment. You take our advice and we help you. And this causes all kinds of conflict and friction in all of their interactions. And then the people there lash out. [00:25:42] Speaker 1: You've had things thrown at you and people punching people in the face. Oh yeah. [00:25:46] Speaker 3: My colleagues have bared the brunt of this. I can tell you a story of my nurse. Of what IV doesn't hurt when you get an IV placed in you. A patient broke my nurse's hand. Fractured it because his IV hurt. And then of course my nurse became my patient and I had to tend to her hand. She was out of work for over 90 days. We're already understaffed. Wow. Yeah. She needs her hand to take care of patients. [00:26:11] Speaker 1: And you've had things thrown at you is what I'm saying. [00:26:13] Speaker 3: Oh, 100%. That's, you know, it's become so commonplace that like verbal abuse, racial slurs, what she said, you know, I violate women like you. That's common, that's so common that we've become immune to it that we don't even report it anymore because it's so common. It's a daily occurrence for some of my nurses and I. [00:26:38] Speaker 1: Do you think, I mean, listen, there's no one thing to blame, but I think, I don't know if some of the shows we watch on television, you know, those shows where the women are pulling each other's hair out and calling each other you bitches and things, whether or not that had an influence on us feeling, people feeling like they can say anything and do anything. [00:27:00] Speaker 2: This is exactly the issue. The more we see those images and people absorb them, the more they think it's acceptable to do that. And I want to just like say, when I think of healthcare workers, that's like a really altruistic job. You're putting your life on the line to save people's lives. Yeah. If that, if we get, you know, I've seen the data on medical doctors and nurses, burnout drop, they're dropping out of the profession because it no longer becomes worth it. Yeah. That affects our whole health as a society. [00:27:26] Speaker 1: It's not worth it if people are throwing things at you when you're trying to help them. No way. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And how has it changed your perspective about what you do, Dr. Patel? [00:27:34] Speaker 3: You know, it hasn't because I understand his research. I understand human nature has not fundamentally changed. I agree with that research, even on ground levels. I understand that people... [00:27:46] Speaker 1: Human nature hasn't changed. It's our environment. [00:27:49] Speaker 3: It's our environment. People post-COVID came back even more sicker. Their public, their physical health concerns were not addressed for almost two years. Mental health crises were rising. Now you're coming back into an environment where you've lost a lot of your doctors and nurses. So the time you're getting is even shorter. So I understood the environment changed and it changed for the worse. [00:28:11] Speaker 1: Okay. So what are we going to do about it? How are we going to, how do we unite the power of us to change this? [00:28:18] Speaker 2: Well, I think the broader issue for me, because we're now talking about airplanes, internet, social media, we're talking about the medical environment. I think we need to really realize that this is a broader societal issue, that we need to create a sense that we're all in it together, that we all are part of the same community, that you are doing a service to help us, whether you're helping me fly somewhere or you're helping me get treated or my family get treated. You know, one of the most important ways of thinking about this that I get from the research that I've done and we describe in our book, is the way people think about the world is they have a moral circle. And people inside that moral circle you support and cooperate with and people outside of it are outsiders. And we do not necessarily care. We'll walk by them if they're in pain on the street. But the research shows, and we describe this in our book, that people have flexible moral circles. You can get people to think of themselves in a broader scope, in a broader sense of identity. And once you do that, they will stop and help the person who's suffering. And so I think a big part of it is we have to change people's minds to get them to realize and understand and constantly be thinking about it, that we're all in it together. And if we forget about that, our healthcare system starts to fall apart. It becomes dangerous to fly. We can't post something online without getting harassed. And so that's a broader issue. And all of us have a role in it. We all role model it. It's how we talk. It's how we treat other people. But it also has to come from our leaders. [00:29:53] Speaker 1: Thank you. American workers report experiencing 212 million acts of workplace incivility every single day. I like that it's 212, not 210 or 200. 212 million acts of workplace incivility every single day. So that's baristas and fast food workers are often the target of people's anger and frustration. So we have a guest here today. Aiden, tell us, what is your story? [00:30:26] Speaker 9: So I've been in the fast food industry for almost two years now. And I've actually found that when people come in, they're usually either already frustrated or angry. That might have nothing to do with you. And even when I try to do my best to help them, sometimes it's just simply not enough. I remember an instance that I had actually my first week. And it was a couple. And I don't know if it was a first date type of situation, but he went to pay and the car did not go through. And... [00:30:57] Speaker 1: He took it out on you. [00:30:58] Speaker 9: Yeah. And I notified him of this. And he just started cussing at me, yelling some very unkind things. The woman next to him is like looking at him like he's kind of crazy. And I'm just like... [00:31:11] Speaker 1: 'Cause he knows that date's over. [00:31:14] Speaker 2: There's no second date. Yeah, I was... [00:31:23] Speaker 1: You cannot come back from the credit card, not going through, at a fast food restaurant on your first date. He knows that's over. [00:31:35] Speaker 9: So... And, you know, even like when I'm working at the cash register or the drive-through, I always make sure I'm good at communicating. You have to make sure you're kind. I've even seen people, they've had thrown food at their feet and they yell that they're never going to come back. And my question to Dr. J is, what is the best way to deal with confrontation professionally and in the workspace? [00:31:57] Speaker 2: Yeah. So first of all, your story's horrific and funny, but terrifying. You're dealing with these people who are escalating because of something in their own life, right? Again, it goes back to they're facing a stress. But again, the historical way of dealing with that is like, you're embarrassed. You try to clear the bill and you move on. You don't upscale the conflict. And so you're now in a situation where you're dealing with this person escalating or you're going to throw their food at you in the other cases. And so I think like the lessons that Cher told us about what happens in an airplane is, first of all, de-escalate the situation as much as you can. Because some people, when they get in what's called a hot state where they're angry or frustrated, they actually, it's trouble, it's difficult for them to reason and be mature and regulate their emotions. [00:32:43] Speaker 1: They can't even hear you anymore. [00:32:45] Speaker 2: Yeah. And some people have, you know, what they do in anger management is they tell you to count down from 10 or 20. And so you're going to have to do that job for them to de-escalate. Okay. The second thing I would say to do is have a sense of solidarity with your other staff. When something like this happens, all back each other up. Yes. And again, this is about the power of us, right? It's, they're going to be less likely to escalate against you. That's chapter seven, finding solidarity. Finding solidarity. Yeah. And this can be something that you should be discussing this with your co-workers beforehand. Yes. That this is our strategy. Any one of us faces abuse. All of us come and provide support because someone's going to be less likely to escalate against you if there's five people now standing beside you all having your back. That's good. Um, and that's going to make a signal to them. There should be an escalation button. Yeah. An escalation is happening. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it could be your manager, but also just be your co-workers and then you do the same for them. And if you do that, it's going to de-escalate things, but, and it's going to make it way more risky for them to throw their fries or whatever at you. Um, they're going to think twice about that now. And then the other thing is you're going to have a greater sense of solidarity and, and camaraderie at your work if you know everybody's got your back. And so even when you face these kind of hostile environments, it's going to be a powerful signal to people that it's not accepted here. None of us will tolerate it. And all of us have each other's back. And that's going to be, um, a place that when other people see that, they're going to be less likely to escalate too. So it could have a powerful, uh, influence on changing the norms of your workplace. [00:34:16] Speaker 1: I would also say that because that is such a humiliating moment, that maybe one of the things you all can be trained to say is, you know, I'm sorry, you know, the card, you know, is not, not, not accepting it at this time. There may be something wrong with the machine, but it's not accepting your card. That's, you know what I mean? Because, because the guy then feels like maybe it's the machine and it's not me. Yeah, the person feels like maybe it's the machine. Yeah. [00:34:42] Speaker 9: So since that instance, I usually ask, is it locked? To kind of give them an idea of, like, it's not going through. And usually they like go on their phone and kind of fix it. And then that kind of diffuses it. And I just talk calmer, be kind. Yeah. Always smile. [00:34:57] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you're doing good, Ayton. Yeah. You're doing good. That's, so Kaylee, what's your story? [00:35:09] Speaker 10: Um, well, I've been a barista for over 10 years now, which, yeah, it's a lot. I've had a lot of experiences dealing with people. Um, and I just feel like everyone is a little bit impatient. Like they don't want to wait, you know, at all for anything. It's true. Um, and... [00:35:24] Speaker 1: We've been trained by our phones. Instant this, instant response, instant. Nobody wants to wait for anything. Yeah. Yeah. [00:35:31] Speaker 10: Yeah. I've had instances where people kind of get in my face, or I've actually had some guy, he threw, um, like a half cup of iced coffee across the room and it hit me and my coworkers. You know, I have people that really make it worthwhile every day that treat us like friends. So I think that, that is what keeps you going. But I think, you know, everything you say and do, it kind of affects other people. [00:35:55] Speaker 1: So you've noticed that people are meaner. [00:35:57] Speaker 10: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think there's just the patience thing. And I just feel like people don't treat us like we're actual human beings sometimes. [00:36:06] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. [00:36:07] Speaker 10: Like if we make a mistake, it's just, you know. [00:36:09] Speaker 1: Like you're just there to serve them and... [00:36:11] Speaker 10: Yeah, a little bit. So that's kind of hard, I think, you know, over time. [00:36:15] Speaker 1: They don't understand the power of us. They don't understand the power of us. Thank you so much for sharing. Well, like our next guest, more than half of Americans have been harassed on social media. Let's watch this short clip. [00:36:29] Speaker 5: Is it me or has everybody gotten like insanely mean? Like super duper mean. It's to the point where I have a friend who's afraid to like post pictures of her online and do stuff online because of how mean people are. She posted a picture of herself one time on Twitter. And she's a heavyset girl. And like the comments were crazy, but she sent me like a picture of her DM. And like somebody told her to herself. I don't know what's in the water, but it's like everybody is just so mean. I think it's because people are miserable in real life. So they get on the internet and they finally are able to punch down on people. This is the only power some people have in their life. Like this is the only way they can feel better about themselves. Yeah, Amber. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a question? I've dealt with some very mean comments online. I love doing TikTok. I love like doing little dances and stuff. And I've had comments behind fake pages that were horrendous that I wouldn't even think of. I just feel like it is a point where people are kind of disconnected because you are on a phone and it's like you can just say it and get away with it and nobody can know you're doing it. I had one comment where someone called me a hog and I was at my tiniest. But they called me a hog and it caused me to exercise excessively, restrict calories. Till this day, that comment was three years ago. Wow. And it's still, I still to this day, like how many calories is this? Or I gotta work out for 45 minutes, lose this amount of calories. I just ate this. And I do it unconsciously now. And I didn't do that prior to that comment. How do you deal with, how do you not take it personal? [00:38:13] Speaker 2: Let me say first, that's awful that you had to deal with that. That anybody has to deal with it. And I think you understand it. When I saw your video, there was a great, like a lot of insight there about these are hurt people. They're lashing out to feel better about themselves. Absolutely, absolutely. And so they're belittling you or anybody. And why you're feeling it, that pain three years later, is something also about our basic psychology. There's a basic effect that is bad is stronger than good. So for every 10 positive comments, the one negative will stick with you. [00:38:45] Speaker 5: And it's crazy because I've gotten plenty of positive comments, but I remember that one comment more than any other positive comments I've got. [00:38:51] Speaker 2: And I feel the same way when I get my end of semester teaching evaluations. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And some of those have stuck in my mind for years later. So like, I just want to like empathize with you that that's basic human psychology. What you're going through is not unusual. Okay, so how do you deal with it? The first thing I want to say is we should deal with this at the source. Because the people doing this are causing an enormous amount of distress and mental health issues and chaos to other people's life. The research on this show is actually the people who post those type of comments. It's often a small number of people. But the difference of online a little bit is that if you're walking around on the street in New York, you know, if someone wants to harass other people, they can harass a couple. And before long, the cops are going to come get them. Right. Online, they can do this to hundreds of people in a given day. And like you said, they put that there and then they just moved on and did it to someone else. Right. And so that is a part of the design of social media is the small, it's a small number of people who are doing most of the chaos. You know, when we think of misinformation, we just talked about that in the healthcare system, 0.1% of people spread 80% of the misinformation online. Yeah. [00:40:05] Speaker 1: Really? Yes. Yes. 0.1% are spreading 80% of the misinformation. But they're posting a lot. [00:40:15] Speaker 2: So those people are posting all day long. They've made it their job. They've made it their job to push this. Yeah. But it causes chaos for all of the rest of us in our life or harassment. And so I think there's lots of things you can do that are within your powers. Obviously, like, you can block comments. You can mute and block people. And I've started to do that very liberally because I'm on social media, too. [00:40:35] Speaker 1: I don't even have comments anymore because people just say the meanest, craziest things. And all the people get together and they're like, [00:40:53] Speaker 7: I don't have comments. That sums it up right there. That's it. [00:40:56] Speaker 2: That's it. Yeah. And so it's like, for any of us who are going to live online now, if you're like, if you enjoy it, you have a creative instinct. So for many people, it's related to their career now to be online. Yeah. And so you have to create a bubble around you that's going to block those types of things from reaching you. Because I think the moment they reach you, they're stuck in your mind for three years. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. [00:41:18] Speaker 1: Yeah. I will tell you this. I was thinking this because, you know, as, yes, we don't, we don't have comments. That's why you don't have comments, even as you're watching this podcast. Because people just get so, the vitriol got to be so bad. We just stopped it. But I remember back in the day, I was thinking this the other day when I was feeling this whole thing that you were talking about. People are so mean. I remember when people were doing snail mail and I used to get like 10,000 letters a week. I'd find one letter that said, I didn't like the way you did that. I would look that person up. I would find them. [00:41:53] Speaker 7: I would track them down and call them up. Yeah. And then they'd say, oh, Oprah, I didn't mean that girl. I can't believe this is you calling me. You know what I mean? [00:42:08] Speaker 1: So it's very interesting. But I think all of us have that. It's human nature. You can have a thousand people say this was great. And then the 1001 person, I'm going to track them down. Oh, and I went searching. [00:42:22] Speaker 5: I understand. I went searching. I'm like, it's a gray avatar. I'm like, which gray avatar is this? I was searching, trying to find it. [00:42:29] Speaker 1: Yes, I understand. I understand. So why is that our human nature? You can hear a thousand wonderful things and the one thing is the one that sticks. [00:42:36] Speaker 2: Okay. So the argument behind it is from an evolutionary sense, if there was like a snake in our environment and we ignored it, we died. And so we are the ancestors of generation after generation after generation of people who are hyper-vigilant to threats. Ah. And then another aspect of that human nature, we go to the loneliness epidemic, is that, again, we're the generation after generation after generation of people who fit in. Because if, you know, throughout evolution, if you got kicked out of the tribe, you died. And we're not a very strong species on our own. We don't have camouflage or wings to fly away or poison or sharp teeth. We need each other. Our, our superhuman strength, our, well, our super strength as a species is cooperation. The power of us. Yeah, it is. Um, so, so when we get a signal that someone is signaling we're not worthy socially, that is incredibly painful for people psychologically. And that's why-- So it's almost primal. Yeah, it's very primal. [00:43:38] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Stacy has had also an experience online. Take a look. [00:43:44] Speaker 11: So, some days it fascinates me how mean people are willing to be behind a computer. It's funny how people start to come at your looks, your weight, your skin, what you own, what you have, what you have on. Would you walk up to someone in real life and ever say that? Are you that miserable that you feel it necessary to go online with nothing to do with anything and just speak to someone like that? Now you wonder why women, especially, are so messed up in the head. Be better, people. Be better, people. [00:44:34] Speaker 7: So why did you post that, Stacy? [00:44:36] Speaker 11: Well, it's funny. I started my account a year ago because I was like, I'm going to free myself of all this. And the comments are, and my voice is a little annoying, so I'll give you that. But that's a big one. My voice is annoying. My skin is, my skin is crepey. I'm like, I'm old. You know, like, people point out my age a lot. I'm like, I know how old I am. It's wild what people will come for you for. And, like, I had someone be like, the meanest. I get why he left you. I was like, which husband? Which one? But I am compelled to answer. So now you block? [00:45:22] Speaker 1: Yeah. [00:45:22] Speaker 11: I can't stop. [00:45:23] Speaker 1: Yeah. [00:45:24] Speaker 11: I answer everything. [00:45:26] Speaker 1: You do? [00:45:26] Speaker 11: Everything. And the meaner it is, I find that I either have to answer or keep answering. I'm like, I can't stop. [00:45:36] Speaker 1: Is it your intention by answering back to try to change their mind? [00:45:40] Speaker 11: No, you know what? I think my intention is accountability, right? Like, the accountability, if you don't just get to say, this is not a one-sided conversation. You can't speak and drop the mic. That's not fair. [00:45:51] Speaker 8: Mm-hmm. [00:45:52] Speaker 11: So I think I come back to be like, and? And if you have enough, look, I'm smart enough, too. If you say something and it's proper, I'll be like, okay. Yeah. But don't come at me for stuff like weight is horrible. Yeah. Because it does stick with you. So my question to you is, why do you think people are so comfortable being mean online? They wouldn't come up to you and say that to your face. [00:46:19] Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is an issue, again, of norms. Like, for example, when I'm at work, people are very warm and friendly. We have, like, norms of professionalism, right? And then when you're online, it's easier to engage in the types of comments that you would not do in person or at a restaurant. Sometimes this still happens when people lash out at fast food restaurant workers or medical staff, but it's much easier online. And part of it is because we have different norms, again, in that situation. And so when you're pushing back on them, you're trying to hold them accountable. And it sounds distressing. I would not advise that from, like, a psychological perspective for your own benefit. But it actually can be really powerful for establishing norms. And it is actually more powerful if someone steps in to help you. And even more powerful if someone who looks like the person is calling them out. Because we follow the norms of people like us. And so if you see someone, if it's a man doing it, it's more powerful if a man steps in and says, "Listen, that's really creepy or inappropriate. No one deserves that. No one thinks it's funny." They're way more likely to shut down than if you do it. And so that's why I call on everybody here or watching that we all have the power to change the norms. And in particular, if people like us are doing it, it's more powerful if we step in and help somebody else out. [00:47:38] Speaker 1: Okay. So what is the path forward out of this meanness? Can you give us a reason to hope that things are going to get better or that things can change? Yeah. [00:47:48] Speaker 2: So I am hopeful and I tend to be a positive person. And so the fact that it's gotten worse also means it can get better. And so we all have a role in creating an environment we want to live in. So online, as I've studied these dynamics and how people harass and spread information, I've actually changed my own online behavior. I'm less likely to get in an argument or say something mean about somebody else because I realize how that spreads among other people and how it impacts them. And so I think understanding is the first thing about how this impacts people. And then the second thing is we all have a duty to step in and change the norms, whether that's at our job or in our families or out in the real world or online. And so we have a job to do that, to create. If we want a more civil world, it's created by all of us. And then the last thing, as I've said over and over again, is our leaders need to do it. And if they're not going to do it, we have to hold them accountable to do it. We have to push for this and say this is something we care about and that we value and that we want. And that just isn't just our political leaders. It's our bosses at work, that they have to have a no tolerance. You said that nothing happened to that guy who was sexually harassed you. The airline has to be, no, you will never fly with us ever again. Or the security staff has to be like, no, you can't come to our airport ever again. And so we have to have norms and then enforce them and make them have real consequences for people. [00:49:21] Speaker 1: Well, we're going to end it there and I'll leave you with this. When I turned 50, Maya Angelou wrote a poem for me. And one of the lines, she wrote a poem called "Continue." You can see it online. And one of the lines in that poem is that, "My wish for you is that you continue to astonish a mean world with your acts of kindness." That's beautiful. And so that's my wish for all of us, is that we continue to astonish this mean world with our acts of kindness and that we continue to evolve into the people that we know we deserve to be. I think because, as you were saying, human nature hasn't changed, we all still have our values. That's why the meanness bothers us so much. Because we know that there's a better way. And I think instead of just knowing that there's a better way, what the power of us is all about is enacting that better way for yourself and for your friends and your community on a daily basis. Yes, I agree 100% open. Okay. Well, I love that. [00:50:22] Speaker 7: That's inspiring. A mean world with our acts of kindness. [00:50:33] Speaker 1: Okay. So you could go on a social media diet for a while. You could have your friends over for a barbecue. You can do whatever it takes for you to astonish a mean world with your acts of kindness. All right. The book is called "The Power of Us." You can get it wherever you buy your books. Thank you, Dr. J. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:50:54] Speaker 7: Be kind. Go well, everybody. Thank you, Dr. J. [00:51:00] Speaker 1: If you're part of the 53% of Americans who feel that society has become uncivil and want to know what we can do about it, I encourage you to buy a copy of Dr. J. Van Bevel's book, "The Power of Us." The QR code is right there on your screen. It might just give you hope for the future. I know we all believe we can do better. You can buy the book right now by scanning the QR code. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about, so thank you for watching and listening.