About this transcript: This is a full AI-generated transcript of hmaud Arbery Death Trial Day 13 - Prosecution Rebuttal Closing Argument-Linda Dunikoski from Law&Crime Network, published July 17, 2026. The transcript contains 16,344 words with timestamps and was generated using Whisper AI.
"Good morning. Appreciate everybody being ready to go a little bit earlier today. Welcome back. We are ready to go ahead and proceed with the closing arguments in the case from the state. Ms. Donkowski. Thank you, Judge. Good morning, everybody. Good morning. All right, so, yes, the state has..."
[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Good morning. Appreciate everybody being ready to go a little bit earlier today. Welcome back. We are ready to go ahead and proceed with the closing arguments in the case from the state. Ms. Donkowski.
[00:00:18] Ms. Donkowski: Thank you, Judge. Good morning, everybody. Good morning. All right, so, yes, the state has another two hours to speak to you. Now, some of you may be thinking, please, no, I understand this. I get it. I've got it. But the defense got up here and gave you a lot of information, and the person sitting next to you might have questions that you don't know. So when you get back there in the deliberation room, I want to make sure that I've covered everything so that we're all on the same page as far as the facts and the law go. So what we're going to do right now is we're going to get back to the basics. Okay, we're going to take it back down. We're going to apply the law to the facts, and that's what we're going to do. We're going to walk through this right now. So the burden is on the state to prove this to you beyond a reasonable doubt. Now, Laura Hoag got up here yesterday and said, you have to be certain that's not true. What it is is it's the doubt of a fair-minded and impartial juror honestly seeking the truth, not seeking doubt, not beyond all doubt or to a mathematical certainty, and that's what the judge is going to charge you. Okay? All right? It's just beyond a reasonable doubt. In other words, do you think they committed the crimes? Okay. If you go, yeah, I think they committed the crimes, you're good. That's all you need. Now, the defendants have raised what we call affirmative...
[00:01:37] Speaker 3: I'm going to object to that description of what reasonable doubt is. It's clearly not the law. And there's cases recently about...
[00:01:44] Ms. Donkowski: Objection.
[00:01:46] Speaker 3: Okay.
[00:01:47] Speaker 1: The court's going to charge the jury on the definition of reasonable doubt. That is the law that will be provided to the panel. And again, if we could just have everybody argue or in argument, make sure that you are referring to the law that the panel will be charged with so that there's no confusion about the standard that should be applied. Thank you.
[00:02:09] Ms. Donkowski: The doubt of a fair-minded and impartial juror honestly seeking the truth. Not seeking doubt, not beyond doubt, or to a mathematical certainty. That's what the judge is going to charge you. Okay? Once again, if you believe they have committed these crimes and the state has proven it to you beyond a reasonable doubt, you are authorized under the law to come back with a guilty verdict on all the charges. It's as simple as that. Now, in this case, the defendants have raised an affirmative defense. And what does that mean? An affirmative defense means, hey, even if you think we really did these things, because the evidence is sufficient to say, yes, we did do these things before felonies in the indictment and the murder, hey, we have an affirmative defense which justifies us doing that. For the murder, it's self-defense. For the other charges, it's citizen's arrest. So here's the thing. You find they didn't commit a citizen's arrest. That's not what they were doing under the law. They didn't meet the criteria. Okay, and I want to remind you guys, ignorance of the law is no excuse. It's not like, well, they were probably mistaken. Uh-uh, you can't be mistaken about the law. If you're going to take the law into your own hands, you better know what the law is. So if you find they were not doing a citizen's arrest under the legal standard, okay, the judge is going to give you, well, then it takes it out of self-defense for the homicide, and that means they're guilty on all the charges. It's as simple as that. So count one, malice murder. Remember, premeditation is not required, and the state is not required to prove motive. All right? You may find malice when there does not appear to be significant provocation, and all the circumstances show an abandoned and malignant heart. Okay, I want to be real clear. The state is not saying that Greggy Travis McMichael ran out of the house to go murder somebody right then and there. We all know that's not how it works, right? Okay, what happens? Let's give you an example. I'll make up an example. She's leaving him, right? They're getting a divorce, and she's there to pack up her stuff. Okay? He's not at the house to murder her, right? No. But what happens? She's packing up the stuff. They start arguing. They start bickering. Then it starts into shoving. Then it's, if I can't have you, nobody can have you. She's thinking, oh, my God, he's an idiot. She's taking the stuff out of the car. He goes up and kills her, shoots her with the gun. Okay. It started out one thing, and it escalated and escalated and escalated. That's how you get to the murder. So don't be fooled, okay? The state's not saying they left the house to go murder Ahmaud Arbery. What happened? They left the house to go investigate, right? Stop. We want to talk to you. Where are you coming from? What did you do? What's going on? Right? And then what happened? Mr. Arbery ignored them. Okay? He took off running. He wouldn't do what they were commanding him to do. He wasn't obeying their orders. Why? Well, under the Constitution of the United States, he didn't have to do anything except walk away. In this case, he ran away. And they chased him. They backed up on him, and then they followed him down Burford. You saw the night owl video repeatedly yesterday when Mr. Goff was here. At that point, I mean, let's face it, to Travis and Greg McMichael, that was a big go jump in the lake. I'll use polite language. I mean, wasn't it? Here they are, ex-law enforcement, co-star. We're demanding that you stop and talk to us. We have questions. Stop. Stop right there. Talk to us. And he ignores them, basically telling them, yeah, I'm not doing it. And it starts escalating. They start getting mad. Oh, yeah? And then all of a sudden, when Brian pulls out, then it's like, oh, yeah, we'll go around and we'll cut him off over here. We'll go get him. Now they want to get him. Now they want to stop him because they're mad at him. He has totally ignored them and run away from them. And how dare he do that to these two people? Okay? What right did they have to stop Ahmaud Arbery? What right did they have to go ahead and demand a fellow citizen stop and talk to them? And then use pickup trucks to try and cut him off and force him to be detained right there on Burford? None whatsoever. So when we're talking about malice murder, we are talking about the fact that this can happen. And the judge is going to charge you on this. No specific length of time is required for malice to arise in the defendant's mind. Malice may be formed in a moment, and instantly a fatal wound may be inflicted. Now you see malice? Well, you can consider it as reckless disregard for human life. You bring your 12-gauge pump shotgun with you, ready to fire. You point it at a man you know is unarmed. I mean, you think they couldn't tell with those baggy shorts that he didn't have a gun on him? Who's being forced toward you by Mr. Bryan and his black Silverado, and then you go ahead and intercept him and pull the trigger without a thought. Abandoned a malignant heart. Reckless disregard for human life. And they're in it together. Greg McMichael and Travis McMichael are acting together, in concert, in the truck. Their actions are all together. They're parties to the crime. Even though Greg McMichael is in the back of that pickup truck on that 911 call when Travis pulls this trigger, he is still responsible because he's a party to this crime. Because without Greg McMichael, this would never have happened. Now, felony murder, once again, is based on the four felonies. Now, the felony murder is you're committing a felony. There's no intent to go ahead and kill the person. But because you're committing that felony, someone dies. Okay, let's not be fooled. We're not talking about but for his parents getting married. That is, that's the red herring. What are we talking about, ladies and gentlemen? But for the felony. Okay, that's the thinking. But for the criminal attempt at false imprisonment. But for the false imprisonment. But for the aggravated assault with the motor vehicles. But for the aggravated assault with the shotgun. He wouldn't be dead. That's how you think about it. Look at these crimes and ask yourself, Okay, if we take that out, would he be alive? It's real simple. The answer is, you can't take out any of these crimes. You take out any one of these crimes that they committed, and he's still alive. All of the underlying felonies played a substantial and necessary part in causing the death of Ahmaud Arbery. What do we have? Aggravated assault with the shotgun. Pretty simple. The aggravated assault was continuous. Started with pulling that shotgun up. Ahmaud Arbery was 30 to 40 yards away. Not an imminent threat at all. And what did it do? It ended with the pulling of the trigger. Shotgun blast here. The pellet's right here. Did that felony contribute? Of course it did. It's the cause of his death. Aggravated assault with pickup trucks. I want to be real clear about this. You do not have to hit the person with the pickup truck. The judge is going to charge you that actual injury to the alleged victim need not be shown. What has to do with the defendant's actions such that it placed Ahmaud Arbery in reasonable fear of immediately receiving a violent injury? What did Mr. Bryan do? What did Mr. Bryan do? He actually ran him into a ditch. Check. I mean, Mr. Bryan right now aggravated assault with his motor vehicle. Check. Felony murder. Check. Because this contributed to his death. This played a substantial part because it put Mr. Arbery in reasonable fear of Mr. Bryan and that truck. So what do we know? We know that Mr. Arbery was running back up homes when Mr. Bryan came back down and he had to turn around at that blue mailbox. We don't see him turn around, but see how far he is at that blue mailbox and he heads back toward the white truck. If he wasn't already in fear of Mr. Bryan and his Silverado, would he still be alive? Yes. But because of what happened over on Burford, because of the criminal attempt at false imprisonment and this aggravated assault, Mr. Arbery said. False imprisonment. You violate the personal liberty of Ahmaud Arbery. You unlawfully confine and detain him. Well, how do you do that? Well, you chase him down with a Ford F-150 or a Silverado. And they did confine and detain him on homes. Ladies and gentlemen, come on. We've looked at this. All right. What do we got? We've got Mr. Bryan chasing him up home. Now, yeah, this line doesn't go far enough because what did Travis McMichael tell the police? I stopped a few houses down, got out of my truck and shouted at him, stop, stop. Now, he denied it on the stand, but that's when he told the police in his written statement, the one he had an hour to fill out, right? So, Mr. Arbery got this far and had to turn back around. Then, he goes back this way. Then, he has to go back down this way because now he's turned around. Now, he has to come back this way once Mr. Bryan turns around. He went up and down the street at least four times. I got confined and detained on homes. That's false imprisonment. Up and down, four different times, right there. Criminal attempt. You saw the night owl video. You saw how fast they took off after him. I mean, Greg and Michael Jelen, cut him off, cut him off, cut him off. Travis denies that he did anything to cut off Mr. Arbery. Doesn't even say he pulled in front of Mr. Arbery, but for some reason, Mr. Arbery turns around and runs back. You decide what to believe. But what was he trying to do? What was his intent? He told you what his intent was. Our intent was to stop him. Can't stop somebody. United States of America, okay? People are free here. They had no authority to demand that he stop. And they're yelling at him. Stop. We want to talk to you. And he's running away. That's the criminal attempt by the McMichaels on Burford. Now, of course, we know the criminal attempt at false imprisonment by Mr. Bryan. He pulled out, pushed him, shoved him, did whatever, got him into a ditch. Now, those actions on Burford, did it put Ahmaud Arbery in reasonable fear of receiving bodily harm? Yes. So now what's he doing? He's running away from them. For five minutes, he's running away from them. If they hadn't put him in reasonable fear of receiving serious bodily harm so that he ran away from them, would he be dead? The answer is no. Therefore, that substantially contributed to his death. Because why? All right. Where did he go? He went up homes. Now, this whole thing of, oh, well, the reason he didn't really run out this way is Mr. Albenzi was down there with a gun. Nobody has x-ray vision. Mr. Albenzi had the gun in the pocket of his overalls. Okay? And what do we know Mr. Albenzi did after all this? He went home. Remember? He walks back and he goes on home.
[00:14:28] Speaker 4: I'm sorry.
[00:14:29] Ms. Donkowski: Goes on home here. So this idea that Ahmaud isn't going to run this way because Mr. Albenzi is out there, we don't know what's in the mind of Ahmaud Arbery. Not at all. But what did Mr. Bryan do? Well, Mr. Bryan got in front of him and then went to back up at him, and that's when he turned up homes. Those are the words of Mr. Bryan. I pulled in front of him. I backed up at him. And that's when he turned up homes. Therefore, the criminal attempt at false imprisonment substantially contributed to the felony murder. Based on that alone, ladies and gentlemen, criminal attempt at false imprisonment, guilty. Felony murder for that on all of them. Mr. Bryan included, and the McMichaels, guilty on felony murder. So, but for his actions, would Ahmaud still be alive? If he had not helped to stop Ahmaud with his Silverado, would Ahmaud still be alive? The answer is, yes, he would have been. That's all you've got to think about is, well, what did he do to contribute to help the McMichaels? The answer is yes. Mr. Bryan played a substantial and necessary part in causing his death. He is responsible for the murder of Ahmaud Arbery. All right, so that brings us to self-defense. All right, I'm just going to go over this quickly. I want you to know what the basics are, the essentials, okay? Because self-defense really applies to the aggravated assault with the shotgun, okay, and the murder charges. So what have we got? One can use lethal force in self-defense, but only under certain circumstances. You can't claim self-defense if you are the unjustified initial aggressor, meaning if you started it. Who started this? It was Ahmaud Arbery. If you're committing a felony against that person. Once again, we're back to our convenience store armed robber. He doesn't get to defend himself against the clerk he's robbing. He doesn't get to claim self-defense. He's committing a felony. In this case, they committed four different felonies, including the aggravated assault with the shotgun. They started it. They do not get to claim self-defense. And then, of course, provocation. You can't force someone to defend themselves against you, so you get to claim self-defense. This isn't the Wild West. No. So there's three instances where the defendants don't get to claim self-defense. And they committed all of them. So once again, initially provokes the use of force against himself with the intent to use such force as an excuse. No Wild West. This is the important one. Cannot commit aggravated assault with a shotgun, with trucks, false imprisonment, or criminal attempt at false imprisonment. Any of those. Not justified in using force if you're doing any of those things. They were doing all four of them. And you're not justified if you're using force if that person was the unjustified aggressor. You can't start it and claim self-defense. And they started this with their driveway decisions. So here's some main concepts. The defendants had to believe the deadly force was necessary. There were no other alternatives. Pointed a shotgun at somebody. There were a whole bunch of other alternatives to that. That belief must be reasonable. And once again, that's reasonable for everybody. That reasonableness applies to you. That reasonableness, there's no special exception for previous training in the Coast Guard or law enforcement. The reasonableness standard in Georgia applies to everyone equally. The danger to yourself has to be imminent. Meaning, I am about to get killed. Not, some guy that would chase him for five minutes is running at me. Can't use excessive force. The minute it's excessive, self-defense goes out the window. The defendant's reasonable belief must be what prompts him to use force. What prompted Travis McMichael to pull up that shotgun? He wanted him to stop. He was trying to get him to stop. Oh yeah? You're not going to stop for me and my dad? Up comes the shotgun. Now you're going to stop. Okay, you're not going to stop. You're going to go around the truck. That's fine. He goes to intercept him. He's not afraid. He moved toward Mr. Arbery. He moved toward Mr. Arbery with the gun. He's not afraid. You've got to act out of fear. You can't be acting out of anger. This guy won't stop and talk to you and won't obey your commands. Okay. What was there to be afraid of? Well, let's see. Ahmad was wearing a t-shirt and cargo shorts that were so baggy he has this big belt loop out here. Let's see what else. Didn't have a bag or a backpack. So, yeah, doesn't have anything that he's carrying. He was running with his hands empty at his sides. Ran away from them for five minutes. Did not have any weapon. Nothing on him. Didn't say one word to them. Didn't threaten them verbally. Didn't say, oh yeah. Didn't say anything. And he had no help from anyone. So, what's there to be afraid of? He went this way. Goes this way. He goes that way. And you see Travis McMichael. Moved down to the center of the street there. Blocking his way. He's trying to get away. He's trying to get away. And then, oh look. He's going to go this way. And he does. And he goes around. And what do you have here? Travis McMichael going to intercept. And that shadow underneath there. I mean, you've got the stills back there. You've printed some of them out. That shotgun is pointed right at him. Right at him. Okay. So, when he gave the police that story about, oh is it, poor arms. And he was striking me and hitting me and striking me and hitting me. And I finally, you know, had to do this. That's what he told the police. A bunch of lies. Shotgun. Shadow. Right here. Okay. Here's the other thing, ladies and gentlemen. Lawyers aren't good at math. I don't trust you guys are. What did the ME say? This arm on a Maud Arbery was 26 inches. This arm on a Maud Arbery was 25 inches. And the barrel of that shotgun is over 28 inches. Do the math. Did he hit him? Did he punch him? Did he strike him? When the shotgun's like this, it's easy. Do the math. This is what Travis McMichael did. There's no fear here. There's only anger. Remember, it's a standard of reasonable beliefs. That the force used is necessary. Do you really believe he had no other choice but to use his shotgun? Is that what you really believe? No other choice. What are the alternatives? Well, the first alternative is don't start this. I'm going to tell you something. My husband, he always tells this to our three nephews, David, Ben, and Sam. And what he says is there's some rules for life. You know what those rules are? Don't go looking for trouble. Don't go looking for trouble because you will find it. And it is not going to turn out the way you think it is. What he's really saying to them is don't be that guy who starts the bar fight and goes, let's go out in the parking lot. That's what he's really saying to them. But it's a life rule. You go looking for trouble and what's going to happen. So don't leave the house. Here's an alternative. Call the police. Don't chase down strangers to confront them. Don't go after pedestrians in your truck. I mean, common sense tells you. You pull up in a truck on somebody who's like a pedestrian who's out for a job. I mean, I don't know. Are any of you runners? You ever had a strange truck pull up and have some people start yelling at you? Would that startle you? I don't know. We don't know what was in the mind of Maude Arbery. But, I mean, what do you think? Did it cause some fear for him? These strange men pulling up in this truck and then not relenting and not backing off? This was three on one. How about some empathy? Remember leaps? Listen. Empathize. Where is Travis McMichael's empathy? Where is Greg McMichael's empathy? Where do they go? You know, wow, I wonder what I'm doing to this other person. I wonder what it looks like from their point of view. I wonder if we might be scaring or startling this person. I wonder if it may be so bad that they might react in a negative way. Where's the empathy? How about don't bring a shotgun with you? This is really easy. Call the police. Because what did Officer Rash want? Remember Officer Rash? He said he wanted them to be witnesses. I mean, so call the police. Follow behind Mr. Arbery at that two miles an hour. Where's he going to go? They could have followed him all the way back to Fancy Bluff and Boykin Ridge. On the phone going, he's turning left. He's turning right. Ooh. Okay. That was a real easy choice. But did they choose to do that? No. They confronted him. They chose to confront him. They didn't need to. They didn't have to. I mean, they could have followed. I mean, he's a jogger. How fast is he going? Don't point a shotgun at people unless you're going to kill them. Don't point a shotgun at people unless you're going to kill them. How do we know he intended to kill them? He pointed a shotgun at them. How about you stay on the driver's side of the truck? Don't go around the front of the truck. Real easy. All right. So let's go ahead and take a look at citizen's arrest because this is really important. The law of citizen's arrest. Okay. So first off, the defendants never, ever said citizen's arrest. They never, ever said we're making an arrest. They never said we saw him commit a crime. So ladies and gentlemen, where in the world did the citizen's arrest thing come from? Because it didn't come from the defendants on February 23, 2020. Where did it come from? So what is the law? A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence. What does that mean? Right here, right now, I saw you commit an offense. I saw you criminally trespass on that property right here, right now, on February 23, 2020. I saw you commit a burglary. I saw you commit whatever crime it is. It's in your immediate presence or within immediate knowledge. Okay. We talked about that. The guy at Walmart is not standing next to the shoplifter when she shoplifts, but in real time, what's he doing? He's watching it. We're not talking about videotapes. You can't watch a videotape from November and then have it in your immediate knowledge. Okay. Remember, the judge is going to tell you it's synonymous. It means the same thing. Meaning, in your presence or immediate knowledge means immediately you know because you saw it. That's what that means. That doesn't mean watching a videotape on February 11 with Officer Rash in front of 220 Sotilla Drive. That's not what that means. A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence. Did Amon already commit any offense in the presence of any of these defendants? The answer to that is no. Boom. Citizen's arrest is gone. But yes, I am going to continue because there's some more caveats. If the offense, the one that was just committed in your presence, is a felony. Do you get why they're trying to make Ahmaud a burglar so desperately? Because if all he's doing is criminally trespassing...
[00:27:23] Speaker 5: Your Honor, again, I don't like to interrupt closings, but this is not an accurate statement of the law that the court is going to give this jury. The parenthetical is not accurate.
[00:27:38] Ms. Donkowski: The parenthetical is mine. Totally mine.
[00:27:41] Speaker 5: All right. I've made an objection, though. I'm asking her for a rule. She's just explaining.
[00:27:45] Speaker 1: Yeah. The parenthetical is what the state is arguing. The arrest is the charge of the court. The charge is going to be provided to the panel. And with the same explanation I provided a little bit earlier on what the law is going to be, the court is going to provide to you the law of the case. Counsel, you may proceed.
[00:28:07] Ms. Donkowski: Thank you. So, okay. The first sentence is, a private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence. Okay? You can arrest if the offense is committed in his presence. If the offense, and that's my parenthetical to remind you, if the offense, we're talking about that offense, the one that was just committed in your presence is a felony, and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, right then and there.
[00:28:31] Speaker 3: Judge, that is not the law that the court is going to give, and we've had this discussion. In this statement of law, we would object.
[00:28:39] Speaker 5: I'd join in the objection.
[00:28:41] Speaker 1: It's noted.
[00:28:44] Ms. Donkowski: You don't understand this is my argument. The judge is going to give you the law, right? And he's going to have it written out for you, and he's going to read it to you. But this is the state's argument. That the offender is escaping or attempting to escape. The state's position is, is that what that means is, I saw the crime. I can't chase after the person. I just have to try and arrest them right there. But if it's a felony, if it's a felony, and if they're escaping, they're running away, I get to chase after them. I don't get a chase after them, unless it's a felony, and they're trying to escape. All right. A private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion. That's the state's position.
[00:29:23] Speaker 1: We have to object and have a conference with the court. We're going to let the state continue. We talked about this in the charge conference. The objection is noted.
[00:29:34] Speaker 5: Based on the incorrect state level, let's rejoin.
[00:29:41] Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, if you could please just go ahead and take a step into the jury room.
[00:29:45] Speaker 6: All right. Let's go ahead and take a step into the jury room. All right.
[00:30:15] Speaker 1: The court had a charge conference Friday. I was provided a bunch of arguments over the weekend that we are making part of the record. So, I understand the objection is being made to the law. I've indicated the law is going to be provided to the panel. I've indicated the court's position with respect to the law. So, with that, I'd like to get the closing argument done, but I'm more than happy to hear the motion for mistrial and proceed from there.
[00:31:01] Speaker 3: Your Honor, based on the final draft of the charge that the court provided us, I guess yesterday morning, the court is going to charge that a private citizen's warrantless arrest must occur immediately after the perpetration of the offense or in the case of felonies during escape. If the observer fails to make the arrest immediately after the commission's offense or during escape in the case of felonies, his power to do so is extinguished. That's not what the state's arguing. They're arguing and. And it's a clear misstatement. The court should simply instruct the state not to argue an incorrect statement of law rather than putting the burden back on the jury to understand what the state's saying, what we're saying, and now what the charge is saying. The court has the power to do so and should do so.
[00:31:50] Speaker 5: In further support of the motion for mistrial on behalf of Greg McMichael, obviously this is the last word by any counsel in the case and to argue the state's case, which we'll perfectly find that they're doing, is to argue the facts and evidence as the law applies to them, but not as a misstatement of the law applies to them that we can't correct, except by making an objection when the incorrect law is being given to the jury by the state. So there's no way we can fix it. We're asking the court to fix it, not by simply saying to the jury that the law is going to come from the court, which it will, but that this is a misstatement of the law, and this argument is improper. Thank you. We join. Thank you,
[00:32:42] Ms. Donkowski: Thank you, Honor. Yesterday, the defense got up here and argued their interpretation of the law, and I didn't object at all because I knew it was their interpretation of what they believe the law to be. They went through the whole probable cause thing. They called him a burglar. They went through everything. The state didn't object because I understood that this was their position of the law as applied to the facts. I've just made it clear to this jury, and I will again, that this is what the law is, and this is how you apply it to these facts, and this is the state's interpretation of how you read this law, just like they gave their interpretation in their closings yesterday. So we ask that you deny the mistrial.
[00:33:16] Speaker 1: One word. Well, no.
[00:33:23] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. You can argue the law. You can't argue a misstatement of the law. The state never told the jury, this is my interpretation of the law until we objected.
[00:33:38] Speaker 1: Well, I think that's what was explained in the parenthetical, but the state does need, I will, the state needs to clarify that this is the argument based on the law that will be charged, and with the law that will be charged, and make sure that we're clear about what the law is that's being charged. I'm not, there was a debate about this on Friday, and I'm not going to reignite that debate in front of the panel.
[00:34:03] Speaker 3: We're fine with what the court's decision was on the contemporaneousness of the events. The charge is great. It's the state's argument about what that means that's flawed, and it's fatally flawed. Well, the state has the right to,
[00:34:21] Speaker 1: just like the defense had the right to argue that what escape means is escaping whatever this temporal period is. I understand the state to be arguing the same thing in a much more limited temporal period. I think the state's got the right to do that. The state needs to be sure, though, that it's clear that that is the argument that is being made as opposed to what the law is, and I think the charge is very clear about that. So, the motion for mistrial is denied.
[00:34:47] Speaker 5: If I may add, the state is arguing that the felony for the second sentence has to have just occurred in the immediate presence of the person seeking to arrest the escaping felon. That is absolutely a misstatement of the law, even as the court agreed to charge it. That's not even correct. The second sentence does not require the felony to have occurred within the immediate presence, contemporaneous with the escape and the chase. That is not the law. That's not the law the court agreed to charge.
[00:35:25] Ms. Donkowski: You know, you're charging the statute, and the statute are those two sentences. The state's interpretation of that statute is, if the offense, well, that is, the offense has to be committed in your presence or immediate knowledge. If that offense is a felony, I mean, that's what it says. If that offense, well, it's referring back to that first sentence, and the state's interpretation is, then that means that felony had to be committed in your presence, and the person had to be escaping right then and there. And that's the state's argument to them, that they never saw anyone escaping from a felony that had been committed that day.
[00:36:04] Speaker 3: That's not what the court's charge.
[00:36:05] Speaker ?: That's not what the court's charge.
[00:36:05] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not what was in it. So the second sentence the court was charging, which I understood was agreed to, was that if it's a felony and there was an escape, that's the temporal issue that we're talking about, then those steps can be taken to detain or arrest the individual. What I understood the defense was arguing is that this temporal period stretched over some time. What I understood the state was arguing was, no, that temporal period is limited to what had occurred there, the escape. The word escape was, he was escaping from whatever may have occurred that day.
[00:36:51] Ms. Donkowski: Yes, that is what worked.
[00:36:53] Speaker 1: Okay, well, that's not what I'm hearing then, because what I'm hearing is, well, if the state limits its argument to that, that that's what the second sentence refers to, an escape, that limited temporal period, then that's permitted. That's what we talked about in the charge conference.
[00:37:10] Speaker 4: Yes, Judge.
[00:37:11] Speaker 5: I don't think that is what we argued about by email and all the rest, Your Honor. Well, that's what I remember. That's what I'm saying.
[00:37:20] Ms. Donkowski: The state limits argument to that.
[00:37:22] Speaker ?: All right. Your Honor,
[00:37:23] Speaker 5: if it's okay for me to step out of this for a second, I will not disturb the jury if they're back by the time I get back. I could also use the bathroom break. I assume that's what Mr. Hove is looking for.
[00:37:37] Speaker 1: Let's just take literally five minutes and then we'll get back into this.
[00:37:41] Speaker 5: That'd be good.
[00:37:51] Speaker ?: All right.
[00:38:12] Speaker 1: All right. So ready to proceed. Yes, let's get the panel. All right.
[00:38:24] Speaker ?: Let's go. All right. Let's go. All right. Let's go. All right. Let's go. All right. Let's go.
[00:38:27] Speaker 6: Thank you.
[00:38:57] Speaker 5: Thank you.
[00:39:27] Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. Thank you for your patience. I understand we are ready to proceed.
[00:39:31] Ms. Donkowski: Yes, thank you, Judge. Ladies and gentlemen, like I said, the judge is going to give you the law. He's going to read it to you. He's going to give a copy to you. So you're going to have it back there with you. I encourage you to read it. So let's get back to where we were, the law on citizen's arrest. Where we are is, a private person may not act on the unsupported statements of others alone. So what that means is, once again, we're back to, did the offense happen in your immediate presence or in your immediate knowledge? How do you get immediate knowledge? Meaning, immediately it happens. Synonymous, right? So that isn't rumor, gossip, hearsay, that a crime has been committed, or that some other person thinks this other person committed this crime. You can't base your citizen's arrest on that sort of stale information from unreliable sources. That's not what you can do. Okay, you can't base an arrest on gossip alone. Facebook does not alone give you probable cause to go arrest somebody. Rumors in the neighborhood do not give you probable cause alone to go and arrest somebody. That's not what immediate knowledge is. A private citizen's warrantless arrest must occur immediately after the perpetration of the offense or, in the case of felonies, during the escape. Okay, so what's that mean? Why is warrantless highlighted? Okay, because a citizen's arrest is a warrantless arrest. You don't have an arrest warrant that, you know, a law enforcement officer has sworn out before a judge at all. This is a warrantless arrest. And so for the warrantless arrest, under citizen's arrest, the arrest must occur immediately after the crime was committed, or in the case of a felony, during the escape. That means the person's escaping, you're chasing them, and you have to arrest them right then and there. That's what that means. Now, remember, the defense got up here and said, well, of course, how would a law enforcement officer ever arrest anybody if the crime happened over here, and then they arrest them later? Well, we all know that law enforcement officers go out and get arrest warrants. Okay? That's what they do. They go ahead and they know Linda has been committing shoplifting. Okay? They get called. They witness her. She runs out. Okay? They don't arrest her that day. So what does the officer do? He takes out an arrest warrant for her. That's how she gets arrested later on the arrest warrant for shoplifting, because she wasn't arrested by the law enforcement officer on that day when he saw her shoplifting. He takes out a warrant and arrests her later. So that answers that question that the defense brought up. All right. Law and citizen's arrest. If the observer fails to make the arrest immediately after the commission of the offense or during escape in the case of felonies, his power to do so is extinguished. Okay? So when you're in the store and the woman's shoplifting and you go to do a citizen's arrest, you have to do it right then and there. If she comes back in the store four days later, yeah, you can't arrest her. You can't do a citizen's arrest four days later. It has to happen. If you fail to make that arrest immediately after the commission of the offense, you have no power to do a citizen's arrest. In other words, I mean, in other words, I mean, this is what we're talking about. We're talking about citizen's arrest for emergency situations. Emergency situations.
[00:43:07] Speaker 3: I object to this interpretation, which is a misstatement of the law.
[00:43:11] Speaker 5: We join in that objection.
[00:43:17] Speaker 1: It's noted that this is the argument that's being made. That's, I've already addressed that.
[00:43:25] Ms. Donkowski: Except that it says law on citizen's arrest, not the inference as the court was making clear to the state. Not their interpretation, but the law, it says.
[00:43:42] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:43:43] Speaker 1: Maybe semantics with the slide. I don't know, and I have not gone through the slide. The law of the case will be provided by the court. All right. This is argument. This is the state's argument concerning what should be the facts of the case and how to apply them to the law. The slide, to the extent that it indicates that this is the law on citizen's arrest, is, again, as I understand, demonstrative. The court is going to provide that. Ms. Donkowski.
[00:44:14] Ms. Donkowski: Thank you. It says, in other words, this is me sort of summarizing it for you. This is the state's argument. You all understand that, right? This is just the state's argument. And the state's argument is that citizen's arrest is for emergency situations when something's happening. They are right in front of you, and you want to go ahead and act as a citizen and arrest the person because you just saw the crime happen. That's what it's for. So what we have is, I'm sorry, it says law on citizen's arrest. This is, once again, a summary slide done by the state. This is the state's argument to you that the crime is committed in your presence. Immediate knowledge is not the unsupported statements of others alone. That a private citizen's warrantless arrest must occur immediately after the offense, and if it's a felony, and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, you can chase them and then make your arrest. That's it in a nutshell, right there. All right. So, we're going to apply that law to the facts of this case, right? So, what crime are we talking about that they thought he had committed? Was it clear to you at all, based on their closing arguments, what they were talking about? All right. Well, it can't be October 25th, 2019, because the mod was on the dock, and he didn't take anything. All right? So, what do we have? Well, we don't even have criminal trespass. Because criminal trespass is when you enter on the property of someone else to do an unlawful act. All right? You decide. Did he enter on to 220 Sotilla Drive on the dock to commit an unlawful act? Well, go ahead and look at the video. Didn't touch any of that stuff. Didn't steal any of that stuff out on the dock. He wandered around and looked around on the dock. All right? Let's talk about Larry English here. Larry English was not concerned about people there in the daytime. He didn't bother to even collect those daytime videos. Kelly Parr told you, yeah, there was a Sunday I saw a mod there in the doorway. You know? We don't know if it was December or January. Larry English couldn't have cared less. Might have been instances of other people there during the day, but he couldn't remember because he didn't care about people coming on the property during the day. What did he tell you? He told you he could remember his subcontractors were there, the kids came over there, and Mr. Billy. Don't know who Mr. Billy is. He would sometimes shut off the video cameras and not turn them on for days. Remember in his deposition, he said, yeah, I'd shut them off because they kept going off, because people were over there, and I'd forget about them and not turn them on. Okay? So he's concerned about his property, but he's concerned about liability because of those kids. He doesn't want one of those kids falling off his dock. Per Larry English, he's a contractor. And by the way, Larry English is the one who referred to it as a construction site. Remember, during his deposition, he called it the construction site. In his experience, it's very common as a general contractor to have people come in and out of the construction site. And what did he tell you? He told you this in his deposition. Nothing had ever been stolen from the construction site in all of 2019 and the first two months of 2020. Let's be really, really clear. This whole boat thing, that's a red herring. All right? Total red herring. Nothing had ever been stolen from the construction site. And you can see how much stuff is in there. You got lumber. You got all this stuff. Mr. Aubrey never shows up with a bag, doesn't back a U-Haul up to it and start loading out that big saw or anything like that. What does he do? He wanders around inside for a few minutes and leaves. That's all he does. But during late October or the beginning of November 2019, we have no idea what the actual date is, Larry English climbs up a ladder and looks down into his boat that's parked there and goes, Oh, my gosh, my stuff's missing. He notices it sometime in the end of October, beginning of November.
[00:48:19] Speaker 4: He can't even tell you what date that was.
[00:48:21] Ms. Donkowski: Okay? And he calls Rash. He goes, Okay, Rash, what do I do? And he talks to Rash about this and says, Well, I don't know when the stuff was stolen. I don't know who stole it. I think it was my subcontractors who stole it. They are the first subjects, suspects. But he also notes that the boat had been back and forth to Douglas where he lives during this time frame. So Larry English, when he's talking to Rash, now knows, I don't know when it was stolen. I don't know who stole it. I don't know where the boat was. And he decides to not even get the police involved. Because what does Rash say? If you want to report to the police, what do you do? Call the non-emergency number, and an investigator will come out and take a report from you. We'll interview you. Figure out what everything is. But what are the suspects from Larry English's point of view? Well, it's his subcontractors. It's the looky-loos, the white couple with the bag. I mean, that's from the 911 call. He thinks they're the people. And then it might have been the four teenagers in Douglas. So it can't be sometime in October, November, when Larry English noticed the items missing from the boat. Because we don't even have enough for Larry English to call the police to even do an investigation into this. Because he doesn't know where the boat was. Much less what date the stuff was stolen off the boat was. We don't know what date this took place. So he never told Travis McMichael, never spoke to Greg McMichael, never talked to William I. Bryan about any of this, this boat thing. Okay, Travis McMichael knew the boat thing from gossip. An unreliable source. Stale information. Who told it to him? He told you. His mother. Greg McMichael knew about this from Officer Rash. And what did Rash tell you? Yeah, I went down and talked to Greg McMichael and told him that Larry English had the stuff stolen off his boat and that he suspects his contractors. They knew better. What was the intent? I mean, Officer Rash told you. My intent here was for Greg McMichael to be a good witness for the police. He's supposed to be a good witness. If he sees the guy over there again, he's supposed to call 911. And then he's supposed to go, hey, he went this way, he went that way. That's what he's supposed to do. Be a good witness. Greg offers his contact information to Officer Rash to give it to Larry English. But Larry English never gets this text. He totally ignores it. Never makes contact with Greg McMichael. Never authorizes Greg McMichael to act on his behalf at all. Now, Larry English, it's completely reasonable. I mean, look at this. This is what the actual owner of the property wants to have happen. This is what the owner wants. Find him. Talk to him. And tell him not to come back. Okay? That's a totally reasonable response. Completely reasonable. Just, Officer Rash, just tell the young man to please stop coming on the property. Because what happens? My blink alarm thing goes off. And then I have to call the police. And then I have to call Diego Perez. And this is a real hassle. He never takes anything. He never steals anything. But, you know, my camera's going off. Can you just tell him not to come back anymore? What did Officer Rash tell you? One of the last questions Officer Rash was asked on the stand. What did he say? Well, if Larry English had called the Glen County Police Department to report the theft of items from his boat, what would have happened? An officer would have been assigned to investigate the case. Meaning, he would have interviewed Larry English. What would he have said to Larry English? Sir, what was taken? When was it taken? Well, Larry English wouldn't have been able to say when. And who took it? Well, it was my subcontractors. I think. But then there was this white couple. I think. And by the way, I think they're living under the bridge. And, you know, I don't know. And then there's this young man who keeps coming in, but he never takes anything. So, this idea that Ahmad would be a suspect, he's a suspect who belongs with a whole bunch of other people. Okay? So, here's the problem. If you're a suspect, and you're a suspect, and you're a suspect, the police don't automatically go, I'm going to arrest him. I mean, that's not what they do. They actually investigate it, right? Like law enforcement officers. So, the idea would be that an officer would go and look into it. That's exactly what Rash said on the stand. Do you remember this? He said, Ahmad might be a suspect, but he would look into it. We don't even know when this stuff was stolen. Ahmad would not have been automatically arrested just because Larry English made contact with the police. There would have been an investigation. That's what Rash told you. Rash, an actual law enforcement officer with a badge and a marked patrol car. So, then we got the white couple with the bag. He calls the police on December 2nd. They're the suspected boat thieves now. Remember, even on December 1st, he's calling the police going, yeah, these are the thieves who stole the stuff off my boat. I want you to go and check them out. Now, here's what's really important. Larry English called the police and said, please go check out the white couple. They're homeless, living under the bridge. He did not go himself to confront the people under the bridge. I want you to compare and contrast this. Because what do we know about Greg McMichael and Travis McMichael at this point in time? July 13th, they went down and confronted the homeless man under the bridge with their guns. And then called the police to tell them about it, that he's a shady looking guy. February 11th, Travis McMichael runs home, tells his dad they get their guns, and they head back down to 220. He says, I'm calling, parked in front of 220. All right? Where's Greg McMichael at that time? He's inside with his gun, about to run into Diego Perez, who's inside with his flashlight and his gun. Neither Diego Perez or Greg McMichael are going to tell Officer Ash that they've both been inside already with their firearms on February 11th. Did they? Nope. And you'll note that the 911 operator stayed on the phone with Travis McMichael the entire time until Officer Ash arrived. That's important. Stayed on the phone the entire time so Travis could keep reporting what he was seeing. So now we're November 18th, 2019. They don't know anything about November 18th, 2019, until they're shown some videos on February 11th of 2020. So they don't even know about this. And it can't be December 17th, 2019, because nobody knew about that at all. Even Mary English. I don't know. I found these on my phone. I never paid attention to them. Police weren't called. Nothing happened. Okay, but what do we know? Okay, a couple of things. Let's look at this. I want you to watch this. What's Mr. Aubrey doing? More importantly, what's Mr. Aubrey not doing? All right? Here's the thing. All right. I'm going to do this. I'm really scared, but I'm going to do it. It's pitch black. It's pitch black. I'm in the house. I can't see. I know there's a table. I seriously do. There it is. Okay. Did you see Mr. Aubrey do that? Did you see him do this? Did you see him run his shin into anything? Did you see him run into any of this furniture or this equipment? They keep claiming it's pitch black in there. Does he look like he's acting like it's pitch black? Okay? No. I don't know how he's seeing. I don't know if it's the street light. I don't know if it's the moonlight. I don't know if it's a combination of those things. But for him, he can see what's going on inside. Right here. Just skirted that lawnmower. Didn't run into it. Didn't bash his elbow on it. And here's what we know Mr. Aubrey did on December 17th. After he went in there for a few minutes and looked around, didn't take anything, didn't damage anything. This is what he did. So, can't be February 11th, 2020. That's not the crime we're talking about that they're trying to do a citizen's arrest for. Because a private citizen's warrantless arrest must occur immediately after the offense. If you fail to immediately arrest, you can't arrest later. Okay? And what do we have here? Well, we know what we have here. We have a criminal trespass, at the most, according to law enforcement officer, Rash, who then said it was loitering and prowling. But first off, I want to address this. Empathy, once again. Where's the empathy from Travis McMichael? Travis McMichael's point of view is, I pulled up and I got out of the car and had a confrontation with this guy. Because I was about to say, what are you doing here? And then he put his hand near his pocket and then I jumped back in my car. Well, okay, let's think about this. Empathy. Do Ahmaud's actions afterwards, does it look like he thought he was just in a confrontation when he walked into the house on February 11th? What did he do when he walked in the house on February 11th? Walked around, wandered around, looked around for a few minutes, and was gone by the time Diego Perez gets over there with his gun, right? So what do we got? Does it look like he just saw someone in a car out front and it was no big deal to him? I don't know. I don't know what he's thinking. I have no idea. You saw the video. What does it look like from the video? Is he in there hiding? Is he in there crouched down? Or is he just wandering around as usual inside? Remember, no one had ever told him to not be on that property. So the thing is, what you're saying to me is you're going, but Linda, the defense got up here and said he's a burglar. He's a burglar, he's a burglar, and he committed all these burglaries. Well, why are they saying that? Well, because they want it to be a burglary, so that's a felony, so that if he's escaping from that felony that he committed, that burglary, they can chase him down. But they didn't know he had done anything that particular day on February 23rd, 2020. What's burglary? What's burglary? When without authority and with the intent to commit a theft therein, that person enters or remains within the dwelling of another. Okay. Criminal trespass. When that person knowingly and without authority enters upon the land or premises of another for an unlawful purpose. Okay. So what do you got? Kind of really similar. One's a felony, one's a misdemeanor. Right? Criminal trespass. A misdemeanor. So what's really important right now is what did the defendants know on February 11th, 2020? What did they know?
[01:00:02] Speaker 6: There's some blacks right in there. Is that right? Yeah. Matter of fact, I don't come to think of it, I kept forgetting about them. They have some kids that age that hang around that house. Well, I've been there for an actual report of alleged assault or whatever, and the kids they have are only females. Now, I don't know if it's one of them's boyfriend. They only had daughters there, so it could be unless somebody's moved in with them or whatever. But, yeah, nobody seems to know who this kid is, where he's coming from. But, like, he's always, all the times on the video that Mr. English just sent me, he's sent me one now, it's always been just in there plundering around. He hasn't seen him actually take anything. I said, so, you know. It's a cruel trespass. Yeah, yeah. Very least. I had it reported. It's stolen on the 1st, right down the road. Now, we did have, I took a report down the road here, the house on the corner. The guy where the Jeep and all is, he had some stuff stolen, some guns stolen, but we got on video the car that people would come in and stole them. They were from another neighborhood. Yeah. How y'all doing? What's up, man? Hey, what's up, man?
[01:01:17] Ms. Donkowski: What did they know? In front of Travis McMichael, Greg McMichael specifically says to Officer Ash, this is criminal trespassing, a misdemeanor. Why is it criminal trespassing? He's never taken anything. He's never stolen anything. Nothing had ever been taken from the construction site. Officer Ash says it's loitering and empowering. So, on February 11th, 2020, at 7.30 at night, Travis McMichael and Greg McMichael know, there's absolutely no evidence that Mr. Arbery has committed any felony or theft from the construction site, from the owner himself, and from a police officer. This is what they know on February 11th. What was Officer Rash's plan? This is important. Officer Rash, Glen County police officer, what was his plan when it came to Mr. Arbery? Was to get his identity information, inform him that this was private property, call Larry English in front of Ahmaud Arbery, put him on speakerphone, let the owner, the owner, Larry English, make the decision to either just ask Ahmaud not to come back or to have the police trespass him, meaning I'm giving you an official trespass warning. If you ever come back here again, you'll be arrested. This was Officer Rash's plan. Reasonable. This is what Larry English wanted. Just somebody tell him to not come back, please. That's all. That's all. Robert Rash took the stand. He said a couple more things that were very, very important in this case. How do you identify a burglar? He was asked by the defense this. What did he say? Caught taking something from the house. This is your Glen County Law Enforcement Officer Rash, who's on the case. He's been talking with Larry English constantly knows all about this. What did he say to the defense? How do you identify a burglar? Because they get caught taking something from a house. Then he was asked, but wait a second. Isn't burglary you enter with the intent to commit a felony or theft therein? What did he say? How would I know what his intent was? Right. Right. How would Officer Rash know what Ahmaud Arbery's intent was? Right there. Set it right in the stand. But the defense, of course, says, well, there are things of value in there. But those things of value have been in there. They were in there all of 2019. They were in there October, November, December, January, and February. And they were never still undertaken, ever, by anyone, including Mr. Arbery. It's not a burglar. So how do you analyze this case? Well, was it a citizen's arrest? You decide. But if they were not conducting a lawful citizen's arrest, you do not have to consider, you still may if you want to, but you don't really have to consider self-defense. Because if it's not a lawful citizen's arrest, then they were the first unjustified aggressors, and they were committing felonies against Mr. Arbery, and therefore, they don't get to claim self-defense. And you can go directly to the charges in the indictment. All right, so it's not a citizen's arrest. This is the state's argument. No crime. Not a burglary. Not criminal trespass committed in the defendant's presence. None whatsoever. The suggestion that the victim committed a burglary in 2019, you can't arrest him now, because he's not escaping from those things. Think about this. How is someone escaping from October 25th out on a dock? How is someone escaping from February 11th, 2020? On February 23rd. Okay? That is irrational. Wanting to question the victim demonstrates their uncertainty on what he had done that day, and wanting to question the victim demonstrates a lack of immediate knowledge, which is required for a lawful citizen's arrest. They didn't see him commit any crime that day. And the state's not saying he wasn't in 220, you know, in, yeah, 220 Satilla Drive. We all know he went in there and wandered around and then came out and then ran off down the street. We all know that. They didn't know that. So let's go ahead and take a look at the evidence in the case. So first off, once again, where are we? Satilla Shores, Royal Oaks is next door, Fancy Bluff. That's where Ahmaud Arbery lives. There's US 17, expressways over there in 95. Ahmaud Arbery. Yesterday, Laura Ho got up here and she gave you Criminal Defense 101. Usually, Criminal Defense 101 is no crime actually took place. Well, crime's on video. My client didn't commit the crime. Well, you had your clients run the video committing a crime. Criminal Defense 101, step three, it's the victim's fault. Standard, standard stuff. Maligning the victim, it's the victim's fault. I know you're not going to buy into that. It's offensive. He lived 1.8 miles away. There was his residence. There's the house under construction. Only 1.8 miles away. February 23, 2020 at 1.08 p.m. Mr. Arbery walks up to the open, unsecured construction site. We have our Olsen video. Remember, it's off by an hour and five minutes. Per the video from inside, 220, Mr. Arbery does not take anything. Just does what he always does. Wanders around and leaves. It's not a burglary. Okay. How would you know what his intent was? Well, did he steal anything? No. Did he leave like he always does? Yes. It's a Sunday afternoon. And Mr. Albenzi calls the non-emergency police line at 1.08. I said to him, why didn't you call 9-1-1? Because this was not an emergency. It wasn't an emergency. Mr. Albenzi. It's just another guy over at that house. Again, the house that's unsecured, doesn't have a fence, doesn't even have no trespassing signs on. Can you send somebody out when it's convenient? Not an emergency. Greg McMichael is in front of 2.30 Satilla Drive alone, and he sees Mr. Arbery running down the street. Driveway decision one. How do we know he didn't witness any crime? But the whole thing started when I saw this guy running down the street. He does not know that Mr. Arbery was inside. 2.20. He only sees him running down the street. Travis McMichael certainly didn't know anything. He's inside, on the sofa. Greg McMichael assumed the worst. And so I thought, well, you know, he's running from somebody. He's just done something. You know, he might have hurt somebody or whatever. Because, you know, this guy's been in and out of that damn one house over and over and over again, got him on videos and everything. That is not sufficient for a citizen's arrest. This is not a probable cause. This is, I don't know what in the world this guy was doing, but he was running down the street real fast. That's what this is. And remember, he's talking to the police about what he believed Ahmaud Arbery had done that day. He must have done something today. He's running down the street. Let's chase after him with guns. That's what happened. Driveway decision. Greg McMichael chooses to arm himself with a handgun. Travis McMichael chooses to arm himself with a pump shotgun. These are their choices. Travis McMichael had his cell phone, but Greg McMichael does not take his cell phone to him. All right. This is really important, ladies and gentlemen. On February 11th, the 911 operator stayed on the phone with Travis McMichael the entire time. Right? So if Greg McMichael had actually made contact with the 911 operator, what would have been happening inside the truck? He'd have been on the phone with that 911 operator going, yeah, he's going this way. He's coming this way. He's going that way. Okay? The fact that Greg McMichael was not on the phone with 911 giving them a play-by-play tells you that Travis and Greg knew they had not called 911. Travis knew his dad hadn't called 911. Okay? Neither one of them called 911. They had no intention of calling 911. Just like they went and confronted the homeless guy under the bridge and then called 911. Just like they ran back down on February 11th, 2020, to the house and then called 911. What do they do? They get their guns, they go to do a confrontation, and then they call 911. Greg McMichael didn't even bother to take his cell phone with him. Obvious to Travis he did not call 911. Travis McMichael. Sixty seconds after Mr. Arbery has run past 230 Satilla Drive, he makes his driveway decision. Doesn't tell his dad to calm down. Doesn't tell his dad that no, he's not getting a shotgun and running after somebody. Doesn't tell his dad this is a really, really bad idea. We shouldn't do this. No. What does he do? His white F-150 pickup truck backs out of the driveway and heads in the direction that Mr. Arbery was running. This happens after he gets his shotgun and getting into his pickup truck. Travis McMichael testified that he went to the end of the driveway and he saw Mr. Albenze point one time down the street. There was no verbal communication by Mr. Albenze with the McMichaels. I'm going to focus your attention up here ladies and gentlemen. What we have here is 213.25. Can you all see this okay? Am I blocking your way? Alright. So what we have here is you can see is Mr. Albenze, right? Here's the black car. Remember the black car goes by, then Mr. Arbery runs the other way, down this way, right?
[01:12:21] Speaker 4: So let's go ahead and play it. There goes the black car. Mr. Albenze is there. There goes Amad. Do you see him? Right there. Amad's running. Running. There he goes. Right there. Do you see him? Down the street. And there he goes. Alright. Then what happens? See the white truck right here? You're looking at it.
[01:12:55] Ms. Donkowski: Somebody comes out. Goes to the door of the truck. Mr. Albenze is still right here, underneath the tree. Somebody else comes out. Do you see the second person come out and go around the front of the truck? Gregory Michael. Because where's Gregory Michael? Gregory Michael's going into that, sitting in that car seat, right? Second person comes around.
[01:13:16] Speaker 4: And what happens? Then Mr. Albenze walks down the street. He's walking. He's walking. He's walking. He's walking. Truck pulls out. Wow. Truck pulls out.
[01:13:33] Ms. Donkowski: Mr. Albenze does his pointing when the truck is already pulled out and going down the street. Want to see it again?
[01:13:44] Speaker 4: Back it up. Here we go. Here's Mr. Albenze. Here's the black car. There goes a mob running down the street. There he goes. This is the white truck. He's still underneath here. There comes somebody to the truck. He's right there. There comes Gregory Michael. He comes around. He gets in. Then Mr. Albenze starts walking down the street. Truck pulls out. There goes his arm.
[01:14:37] Ms. Donkowski: There goes his arm. Where's the truck? Already pulled out. Already pulled out. Already pulled out and heading down the street. All right. Should you trust the statements of Travis McMichael? Now, let's go ahead and first take a look at this. He told you he's not going to chase or investigate someone who is armed. And yet all he talked about was, well, he kept reaching in his pants. He kept reaching in his pocket. Well, did you think he was armed or not? Then what did he tell you? This is what I was thinking. Mr. Albenze may have run by. Maybe Matt had seen him. Maybe he has broken in. Maybe Larry English is over at 220. I don't know. Maybe Ahmaud Arbery was caught. Maybe Ahmaud Arbery is running from the police. These are all maybes. He doesn't know anything. These are all the maybes he testified to. He said he assumed he was committing a crime. That's what he said in the stand. Remember, I wrote it out. You said you assumed he was committing a crime. I went down there to see if it was him. Then he said, I don't know. I don't know what he did that day. I don't know. Then he wanted to talk about his totality of the circumstances and all that stuff that he knew that was going to allow him to do the citizen's arrest. What did he talk about? Well, I heard from my mom about the stuff stolen off the boat. Okay, well, can't arrest somebody on the unsupported gossip of someone else. Can't do that. Then I saw him inside the house and I knew he was in there on a couple other days because I'd seen video on February 11th and saw these videos. Okay, well, that's not having committed a crime in his immediate presence. This is somebody showing you some stuff later. And then he knew about the white couple. Oh, yeah, I knew there were other suspects for stealing the stuff and other suspects who had gone in the house, the white couple. Okay. And then he also said, well, yeah, and then there was the shady-looking guy under the bridge. He was also kind of a suspect. He said, I want to talk to you. I want to talk to you. What happened down the road? I was ordering him to stop. What gives you the right to order Ahmaud Arbery to stop? My impression was that he could be a threat because who knows what can happen? Oh, my God. Self-defense, you have to think you're in imminent danger of receiving serious bodily harm or death. It's in and ain't really happening. I'm about to die. My impression was that he could be a threat. Yeah, who knows what could happen? Let's make a sound of a stand. All right, so what else have we got? If Greg had called 911, he still would have been on the phone with 911. We know that. That's how 911 works. They stay on the phone with you. He knew he wasn't on the phone with 911. He told you he didn't know what his father was saying to Ahmaud. Really? Does anybody believe that? That he's in the car with his dad, but he has no idea what it was that his father was actually saying to Ahmaud as well as what he was saying. Now, what did he talk about? He talked about that, like, continuum of the use of force and blah, blah, blah. Level two is commands. Okay. I'm sorry. How do police officers command people to do stuff? How do they usually do that? Because police officers, I mean, are they yelling at you or are they politely saying stuff to you when they're commanding you to do things? Do you believe for a minute he was talking softly to Ahmaud Arbery? What's going on? What are you doing? Please stop for me. Do you really believe that for one minute? I'm going to ask you another question. Do you think this Travis McMichael who took the stand was the same Travis McMichael from February 23rd? You think they're the same person? Or you think this is trial preparation? What tone of voice do we have being used by the McMichaels?
[01:19:37] Speaker 6: What tone of voice do we have been used by the McMichaels?
[01:19:41] Speaker ?: Hello?
[01:19:43] Speaker 5: 9-1-1, what's the address of the emergency?
[01:19:46] Speaker 6: I'm not here at Satilla Shores. It's a black male running down the street. Satilla, where, where, where at Satilla Shores? I don't know what street we're all. Stop that, is it?
[01:19:57] Speaker ?: Stop.
[01:20:00] Speaker 6: Sir! Sir, hello?
[01:20:07] Ms. Donkowski: Ask yourself, was that the tone of voice being used? Well, yes, we know it was. He just said, stop. God damn it, stop. To Mr. Arbery. In that tone of voice. Alright. Use of force continuum. Presence. Did not have. No badge, no uniform, no authority. Just some strange guys in a white pickup truck. Strangers. Verbal commands. They don't have any authority to use verbal commands. This is a fellow citizen. This is another human being. They're pulling up on him. And they're commanding that he stop and talk to them. And then, of course, he skipped level three, level four, level five, and went right to deadly force.
[01:20:58] Speaker ?: Done.
[01:21:00] Ms. Donkowski: Someone's dead. Claims he didn't cut off Ahmaud on Burford. Did not get out with his shotgun. I don't know, you believe any of that? Told the police he got out of his car in Holmes, a few houses down, and yelled at Ahmaud to stop. Now he says that didn't happen. And his convenient excuses, I was really confused. What did he say the Coast Guard goals were? To not escalate, but to keep everyone calm and cool. You don't want anything to escalate. But then he tells you, oh, but you pull out a shotgun and point at somebody to de-escalate a situation. What are you talking about? Does this logic make any sense to anybody? Travis McMichael never said to the police, I was making an arrest. I was trying to arrest him for the crime of this. Wouldn't that be really, really important? Hey, I was trying to effectuate a citizen's arrest for this crime that I know he committed. Wouldn't that be something you'd tell the police never once? Never told Mr. Arbery he was under arrest. Never said, I saw him commit the crime of blank today. Because he didn't. He was sitting on his sofa. Never said, I was afraid he was going to hurt my dad or pull him down. Never even mentioned being afraid for his dad. Not once. Anything about the English's vote or anything being stolen from 220. Never mentioned it. Never talked about it. Two hour and 45 minute interview. Doesn't talk about any of this stuff. Assumed the worst. Here's what he did. So he stopped. And I said, hey, just want to talk to you, you know. Where are you running from? Where are you going? This is what he says he said. He's asking Ahmaud about what he was doing that day. That day. Because he didn't know what he'd done that day. But he assumed the worst. He must have committed some crime. What's your emergency? There's a black man running down the street. What did Agent Seacrest tell you? GBI agent. I can't compel anyone to speak to me. They knew better. Just like Agent Seacrest knows. I can't compel anybody to talk to me. All right. Let's go ahead and talk about Defendant Bryan. 307 Burford. I've seen his night out video. I'm not playing it for you again. It's motion activated on the porch. Travis McMichaels White 150 pickup truck comes in front. Driveway decision. And this is important, ladies and gentlemen. This is really important. Y'all got him? Why is this important? What does this say? Mr. Bryan, from his porch, can tell that they are chasing and trying to falsely imprison, stop, define, confine Mr. Arbery. He can tell it from his porch. He knows exactly what they're doing. Y'all got him? He knows what they're doing. And you know what he chooses to do? His independent, independent own decision. I'm going to go join him to try and stop this guy, confine and detain him. He just joins in and starts helping. His driveway decision. That is what being a party to the crime is. You go to help some people who are committing some crimes. Trying to stop this guy and detain him. And confine him. He joined in. Y'all got him? He knew exactly what the McMichaels were doing. What did Mr. Bryan tell you? So I just kind of sat there for a minute and didn't really know what to do. And then he was trucking. So I mean, he closed in on me quick. And as soon as he got up to me, I overshot the road. I was kind of angled. I overshot the road and forced him to go down into the ditch right there. Aggravated assault with a pickup truck on Mr. Bryan's verdict form. Check. And I angled my truck at him again. I think he kind of turned around. I missed him or whatever. I missed him. He was intending to hit him. I missed him. I mean, when you say, well, I missed him, what does that mean you were trying to do? You were trying to hit this person. Then at the scene, he tells Officer Minshew, one time when I cornered him up over here on Burford, he was trying to get in my truck. He tried to get in my door. Trying to get in his door. Or, Mr. Bryan, did you get so close to Mr. Arbery that Mr. Arbery had to push off from your truck, getting white fibers from his T-shirt and his palm print on your truck? Because you got so close to him, he had to push off to get away from you. I mean, I can't say for sure that he wasn't on the door. I didn't give him a chance to get to the door. But after I angled him off the side of the road, you know, and I kind of went on past him because I didn't hit him, wish I would have, might have took him out and not got him shot. But, you know, I probably got past him a little bit. And he comes up on me, and I could see him in my mirror, and he was coming to the door, and I see his hands right behind the door. After I angled him off the side of the road, I kind of went on past him, I didn't give him a chance to get to the door. Yeah, towards the entrance, towards the entrance, but I confronted him again. I angled at him again. We're now at aggravated assault number three. Before we got to the road he was lying on, right at that house that's on the left-hand side, you're heading towards the entrance of the neighborhood. So he confronted him once again, right there, at that corner of Holmes and Satilla. I was fixing, I put it in reverse and was going to back up at him. And that's when he made his move to go down the road it happened on. Felony murder, right here. Felony murder for criminal attempt at false imprisonment. Felony murder for aggravated assault at the pickup truck. Mr. Bryan kept Mr. Arbery from running down Satilla Drive and out of Satilla Shores. He redirected him up Holmes. But for those actions, Mr. Arbery would be alive. Played a necessary and substantial part in the death of Mr. Arbery. All right, so I backed up and started going down that way. I think I angled at him again. Kind of forced him off the road or something right in here. And he turned around. He turned around right here. The black guy did. He turned around maybe down this far or so. He turned around and started running back the other way. And I pulled into a drive or something and started to turn around. Fourth aggravated assault with the pickup truck. There's his route. There's the McMichael route. And here it is all together. So once again, ladies and gentlemen, the indictment. How the route of defendant Bryan be held responsible if he was in his Silverado filming the murder at the time Travis McMichael murdered Ahmaud Arbery? How could Gregory Michael be held responsible? Okay, it's real simple. Party to a crime. The law does, in Georgia, believe that everybody who helped, encouraged, advised, went inside a house and grabbed their son and told him to get a shotgun and come on. They're all equally responsible for the ultimate death of the victim. Because a person is a party to a crime only if that person directly commits the crime. Travis McMichael. Pulling the trigger on the shotgun. Helps in the commission of the crime. He wouldn't have been able to do that if not for his father and if not for Mr. Bryan. Intentionally advises, encourages. That's what Gregory Michael's doing. Cut him off. Cut him off. Go this way. No, I'm going to go that way. What are they doing in the truck? They're working together, Greg and Travis McMichael. That's why they're both responsible. Laura Hoag got up here and said, Greg McMichael's not a murderer. Yes, he is. Greg McMichael is just as big a murderer as Travis McMichael is because he's a party to this crime. Okay? When three people chase an unarmed man in two pickup trucks with guns in order to violate his personal liberty, who gets to claim, I'm not really responsible for that? Under the law in Georgia, no one gets to say that. Everybody is responsible. All right, how? All right, I'm going to give you an example. This is just an illustration. Just to make a point, okay? Four men drive to a bank to commit an armed robbery. All right? You got the driver who never gets out of the car. You got the lookout who stands outside. You got a guy who goes in without a gun. And you got a guy who goes in the bank and shoots the guard. All right? So who's guilty? Under the law in Georgia, all of them are responsible for aggravated assault, for shooting the guard, and armed robbery for trying to rob the bank or robbing the bank. All right? Because they committed the crime or they helped in the commission of the crime or they advised and encouraged someone to commit the crime. And of course you're saying, but Linda, only one person had their finger on the trigger in this case, and that was Travis McMichael. So how do we find Gregory Feigl and William Roddy Bryant guilty of malice murder? Well, under the law in Georgia, it's as if they were all holding the gun together. And in this example, the guy who never got out of the car and was the getaway driver is just as guilty. In this example, the guy who got out of the car and just stood at the front of the bank is just as guilty. Party to a crime. So under the law, all are involved. Why? Well, Greg McMichael, he was seeking to confront Ahmaud Arbery. He was encouraging Travis McMichael to come with him, encouraging Travis to cut him off. Greg McMichael threatened Ahmaud to get him to stop. Okay? We would not be here if it weren't for Greg McMichael. Travis McMichael. Without Travis McMichael deciding to actually take his shotgun and help his dad. He could have told his dad, we're not doing this. Calm down. Call the police. There's a whole bunch of decisions both of them could have made that would never have resulted in Ahmaud Arbery's death. He decided he was going to drive his pickup truck to chase Ahmaud, and he got out of that truck with that shotgun. Totally and absolutely unnecessarily. Mr. Bryan, who decided to help the McMichaels. Without Bryan, who then assaulted Ahmaud in his pickup truck in an effort to falsely imprison him on Burford. Without him redirecting Ahmaud onto Holmes. Without Bryan chasing Ahmaud toward Travis McMichael. We wouldn't be here, because Ahmaud Arbery would not be dead. It doesn't matter who actually pulled the trigger under the law. They're all guilty, even of malice murder. All right, let's take a look at the crime scene. Of note, Ahmaud Arbery had nothing on him. No bag, no backpack. No burglary. No cell phone. No ID. No wallet. No keys. No gun. No weapon. Nothing. I'm going to show you some crime scene photos. So what do we have? All right, take a look at this. This is what's important in this picture. These pants are so baggy. Look at this. Look how baggy he is. Look where his belt is. He's running like this. There's no way they believe he had a gun on him. Absolutely no way. Mr. Arbery was shot. First in the torso and through the wrist. All right? He was shot this way, where it came out this way. So what's he doing? He's coming around that corner. Here it is. Here it is. His wrist gets shot. There's no way he's striking Travis McMichael. There's no way he's hitting him. All right? We don't know. Did he grab the end of the shotgun? Did he try and push it away? Who knows? What we do know is it happened like this, and Travis McMichael fired. They struggle over the gun. Yeah, then they're struggling over the gun. Two more gunshots, and he gets shot under his left armpit. I am going to show you the crime scene photos. So what do we have? Why do we know he got shot in the wrist? Because of the blood spatter. The arterial spurt. Remember? Okay? Why is there blood here in the road, in this driveway? From the arterial spurt from the wrist. That's how we know the wrist got shot when he was shot in the torso. And there's the evidence of it in the crime scene photos. What do we also know? Here's the gunshot wound to the torso. Here's the gunshot wound under the armpit. Both lethal, lethal injuries. Travis McMichael, at the end of his interview, the very end of his interview with Detective Nohilly, do you remember if he grabbed the shotgun at all? I want to say he did, but I honestly cannot remember. If he grabbed that shotgun, that would be the first thing Travis McMichael would have said. Yeah, he grabbed my shotgun. All right. We are going to talk about Greg McMichael. Greg McMichael did attempt to control the narrative after this took place. He's the one who started this whole thing, and now his son has killed someone. And that young man is laying dead in the street from these shotgun blasts. So what does Greg McMichael do? Well, while first responders are on the scene, he's going up and he's telling his kid, you didn't have any choice. He goes over and he talks to Brian to find out what he saw. Oh, he's got a video. He goes over and he talks to Diego Press. He's outside the crime scene tape, wandering around, talking to people. Someone brings him his phone. A stranger comes up to him. Some stranger, some neighbor comes up to him. I mean, this is a crime scene. There is a deceased young man in the middle of the road, and strangers are walking up to him. And what does he tell the stranger? This guy ain't no shuffler. This guy's an asshole. Malice, right there. That's how you know. Right there. 2.15 p.m. He's talking to Captain Tom Jump, the head of CID, the head of the Criminal Investigations Division of Glen County Police Department, while Tom Jump's crime scene tech is taking photos. Okay? And then Greg McMichael drives his white truck from the scene. Sheila Ringo's never got any pictures of the white truck. Sheila Ringo's never got any pictures of the Silverado. The white truck was never searched. Mr. Bryan's truck was never searched. Neither of those trucks were impounded. So what do we got? We got this. Outside the crime scene tape, talking to the head of CID. And what happens in, look at the crime scene photos. Take a look at them. What happens next? He drives that truck away. While the crime scene tech is there taking photos. No one said Mr. Arbery had a weapon. Nobody said Mr. Arbery made any verbal threats or gestures. Nobody said I saw him commit a crime today. No one said I'm making a citizen's arrest. No one was trying to arrest him for the crime of anything. No one ever said any of these things on February 23, 2020. Greg McMichael's statements to the police. These are important. This is why Greg McMichael is guilty. Did this guy break into a house today? That's just it. I don't know. That's what I told. What's her name out there? I said, listen, you might want to go knock on doors down there because this guy just done something because he was fleeing from. I don't know. He might have gone in somebody's house. You can't make a citizen's arrest because someone's running down the street and you have no idea what crime they have committed that day. You can't hold somebody so the police can show up to go, well, he must have done something. Why don't you police officers go figure out what it was that he went and did today? But that's what Greg McMichael told the police. Then he was asked, is he picking up anything or going through anything? You know, not that I recall. I don't think the guy's actually stolen anything out of there. Or if he did, it was early on in the process, but he keeps going back over there, over and over again, this damn house. No one ever said, we have evidence that he stole items out of Larry English's boat back on some unknown date, so we were trying to arrest him for that. There's never any mention of Larry English's house and the stolen items off the boat. Not by anybody. My intention was to stop this guy so he could be arrested. Never says for what? Never says what crime it was he was going to be arrested for. I don't think the guy's actually stolen anything. Did he break into a house today? I don't know. And in that same sentence, he could be arrested or at least identified. So this is all for identification. This, this whole entire thing, this, this was all to do what? Identify Mr. Arbery. That's what we're doing. That's what Greg McMichael says. How do you know it was an attack? Mr. Arbery? Strangers with intent to kill? I yelled, stop or I'll blow your fucking head off or something. I wanted to know that we weren't playing. This is what he said to the police. Now, Borgo got up here and went, oh, yeah, he was just confused. He didn't mean that. He was really, he was, he didn't remember what he said. Really? He proudly told the police, this is what he said to Mr. Arbery. We're going to kill you if you don't stop. Greg McMichael. Yeah, he was trapped like a rat. Knowledge, intent, that they had committed false imprisonment on Holmes Drive. Right there. Greg McMichael. Guilty of all charges. Why? What's your emergency? I'm out here in Satilla Shores and there's a black man running down the street. Yeah, this is what we get. This is what we get. Driveway decisions and assumptions. Right here. I've gone through all this. I'm not going to do it again. Bottom line, ladies and gentlemen, they committed four felonies against Devon Arbery in violation of his personal liberty before he finally tried to run around their truck after running from them for five minutes. He was trying to get away from these strangers who were yelling at him. Yelling at him. Threatening to kill him. And then they killed him. Do you have any doubt that they committed all of the charges in the indictment? No. No.
[01:40:42] Speaker ?: No. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt.
[01:40:43] Ms. Donkowski: No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt.
[01:40:47] Speaker ?: No doubt. No doubt. No doubt.
[01:40:47] Ms. Donkowski: No doubt.
[01:40:48] Speaker ?: No doubt.
[01:40:48] Ms. Donkowski: No doubt.
[01:40:49] Speaker ?: No doubt. No doubt.
[01:40:49] Ms. Donkowski: No doubt. No doubt.
[01:40:51] Speaker ?: No doubt.
[01:40:51] Ms. Donkowski: No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt.
[01:40:57] Speaker ?: No doubt. No doubt.
[01:40:57] Ms. Donkowski: No doubt. No doubt.
[01:40:59] Speaker ?: No doubt. No doubt.
[01:40:59] Ms. Donkowski: No doubt.
[01:41:00] Speaker ?: No doubt.
[01:41:00] Ms. Donkowski: No doubt.
[01:41:01] Speaker ?: No doubt.
[01:41:01] Ms. Donkowski: No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt.
[01:41:05] Speaker ?: No doubt.
[01:41:05] Ms. Donkowski: the straight face. Ladies and gentlemen, you're the jury. You decide. This is your search for the truth. If you honestly can look at each other and say that out loud, then find him not guilty of the aggravated assault. Find him guilty of a lesser. Because you decide. You are Glenn County. I mean, today, you are Glenn County. Remember, this isn't about having personal baggage back in the jury room. It's not about a point of view or an agenda or anything like that. That's not what's going on. Y'all are really, really smart, and you've paid really, really close attention to this case. You're going to determine what really happened based on the evidence, and then you're going to apply the law that the judge gives you to that evidence. It's not about being an advocate for anybody. It's your search for the truth. I suggest, once again, that you work from the bottom of the indictment. It's just going to be easier. criminal attempt at false imprisonment, and then work your way through it. It'll help you logically. Remember, party to a crime when you're talking about Greg McMichael and Mr. Bryan. You're going to get a verdict form. The state is asking you to fill it out this way, especially for Mr. Bryan and the aggravated assault with the pickup trucks. He's not guilty of simple assault. He's not guilty of reckless conduct. He's not guilty of reckless driving. He's guilty of aggravated assault, for putting Ahmaud Arbery in reasonable apprehension, fear of receiving serious bodily injury. Ladies and gentlemen, here's the thing. This isn't about whether these three men are good people or bad people. That's not what this is about. It's about responsibility. It's about holding people accountable and responsible for their actions. When they do something like this, they have to be held accountable and responsible. Nobody gets a free pass. Would you get a free pass? Who gets a free pass? No. The law basically says, if you commit the crime, you're going to be held responsible. And ladies and gentlemen, when you come back with a guilty verdict on all the charges, this isn't saying somebody's a good person or a bad person. What you're saying is, you know you committed the crime. Now we know you committed the crime, too. That's all it is. They know what they did. It's not like they don't know what they did. They know exactly what they did, and they know why they did it. It's not a mystery to them. When you come back with your guilty verdict, all you're doing is telling them, we know what you did, too. And we're going to hold you responsible for it. Because guess what you did? You turned this young man into that young man. That's what you did. For absolutely no good reason at all. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm asking you to find all three defendants guilty of all the charges in the indictment. Thank you very much.
[01:44:28] Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take a 10-minute recess, and then we're going to come back with the charge of the court. Do not begin your discussions or deliberations in this case until you have received the final charge of the court. Again, with about 10 minutes, and we'll come back and get that onto the record. Thank you.
[01:44:48] Speaker 5: So, rest for the jury.
[01:45:18] Speaker 1: All right, let's take a 10 minute recess, uh, 20 to 11 when we can make, thank you.
[01:45:48] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.