Headstart: Ex-Senator Richard Gordon Blue Ribbon 'subcommittee', SP Cayetano, VP impeach trial — ANC

[0:00] we're now joined by former senate blue ribbon committee chairman richard gordon good morning [0:05] to you sir thank you karen for inviting me i'm saying that because uh some of the trolls are [0:11] saying i'm presenting myself to me that i'm not i keep getting invited oh wow so you have that [0:18] particular trolling accusation yes you are invited always now i want to ask you is it common is it [0:26] allowed for a subcommittee to be formed unilaterally so to speak what is the process [0:33] normally uh the chairman has the uh option to appoint a subcommittee but he would have to tell [0:41] the senate as a whole the plenary or the president the senate president but that is allowed uh but uh [0:49] the more important problem here is uh uh the composition now of the blue label committee [0:56] which so far has had no minority representation so we don't have any minority representation that is [1:02] uh that is a farce so the minority has to be included in the blue ribbon committee and if i remember [1:09] correctly you usually have about 17 or 18 members uh in the blue ribbon committee so that's practically [1:16] the whole senate especially now okay so sa ngayon eh posible naman sir na hindi pa convened no as a whole [1:25] so posibleng pumasok pa ang minority or can the minority protest the leadership or the formation of [1:33] the subcommittee and refuse to join can the minority do that of course i mean the minority's voice uh [1:41] must be heard that's why you have a minority and you cannot allow the tyranny of the majority to prevail [1:46] and uh in this particular instance there is room and very very important reason to speak out because [1:54] uh now you're not only straining the reputation and credibility of the senate uh but also the senate [2:03] blue label committee which is the premier committee uh in the senate that is assigned to uh look at the [2:10] liability of public officers criminal liability public officers and so when you make this [2:16] presentation now uh that's a fair comment because uh that is in fact uh been exposed to the public uh [2:29] the barcoleta himself has uh practically hanged himself by making uh statements uh that harms that harm him [2:40] and uh admitting that he took money even if he did that uh it was during the elections that by itself [2:46] with his admission and that goes into uh plunder and at the same time uh indirect bribery which is uh [2:54] punishable now self-reliable committee is supposed to look at the malfeasance miscreasance and [3:01] unfeasance and all other uh important uh elements that uh that uh involve officers and employees of [3:09] government implementation of the constitutional provisions on nepotism and investigation of any [3:13] matter of public interest on its own initiative or brought to his attention by any senator so again [3:19] a big big question mark right away uh especially uh with this record and of the lisha sa blue [3:25] rainbow committee and this is a sabi k chairman lakson at that time lucy duteza bayon young marine [3:31] uh yeah he appeared there at and he appeared to be coaching him he appeared to know everything that [3:39] was in the in the affidavit which is where but uh he knew right away that he was already reading the [3:45] wrong thing which means that that uh affidavit is probably by benefactor is somebody's law office [3:51] probably close to barcoleta and so what happens now is uh luteza has disappeared and it's even uh [3:59] fractured by the fact that uh uh he went into a note it was not raised by uh allegedly by somebody in [4:05] manila who later on came out and said no i did not not arise that so are you saying no senator gordon [4:12] are you saying that uh there's a conflict of interest or marcoleta is compromised to be the head of the [4:20] subcommittee of the senate blue ribbon because of the very issues that he's facing yes i think he's severely [4:27] compromised because uh any witness can now say uh i remember one time i was having a hearing and [4:35] the witness told one of the senators so that way that that right away puts a big block on the credibility [4:48] of the investigators of the senate blue label committee so we really have to be careful uh [4:54] uh uh that's why it's important that the senate president tally a little because he's he's running [5:00] at 10 000 miles per hour running roughshod and uh uh uh that's his senator now in terms of senate [5:09] intramurals no um it's quite close so you have the majority at 13 minus bato who's now in absentia [5:17] they're 12 and then you have 11 some minority so at this point the majority one would say is not so [5:25] secure because they're not an overwhelming majority but ito can the minority already at this point just [5:33] analysis can they already be obstructionist to anything that the majority may want to push because [5:40] they're quite solid yung 11 so we saw it in the walk out that's one right the walk out but in other [5:48] things for example you said you can't have a blue ribbon committee na walang minority wala pang minority [5:55] if they all refuse to be a part of the blue ribbon committee because of the insistence [6:00] of forming a subcommittee pwede ba nila gawin yun sir oh definitely uh [6:05] uh if they're not uh recognized they can go on the very famous word filibuster [6:12] they can go on filibuster and nobody can stop you uh for so long as you stand on the podium or the [6:19] uh the platform and just speak and speak and speak and you know ask questions they cannot stop the [6:24] minority they cannot muzzle the minority so is senate president alan peters kayatano his leadership [6:32] is it problematic at this point how would you describe it i think that he has a very severe [6:38] problem uh in terms of credibility uh how he got in at first he said this was really an effort to [6:46] try and correct the senate situation and then batok came out to this statement that then i work [6:51] uh in the uh coming in the hills of uh the pending investigation uh uh and all of them are identified [7:04] with the past administration kayatano being a former vice president uh and later on was designated [7:11] by president doterty a speaker in a sharing agreement no uh and you should look into that [7:18] current because that sharing agreement created another ruckus in the speaker in the speakership [7:23] in the house in the lower house nagkagulo sila doon uh kayatano said oh no uh may violence [7:33] and then uh you know combined numbers he keeps repeating the same thing that he's saying now [7:40] so what you're saying is there's a pattern this this has already been done yes yes yes in a sense it [7:47] with with with kayatano you're saying as possibly taking on the helm of speakership it's a repeat [7:53] yes yes in effect uh he's bordering on what we call recidivism only he's not been convicted [7:59] because for recidivism you have to be convicted twice but he's done it twice now although he's not [8:04] convicted into the mighty halls of power the speaker of the house where they agree that that look [8:11] uh and then later on uh i think uh marinduque uh i forget the speaker no uh and then later on when [8:23] that happened he refused he refused to give it to velasco the speaker and i said okay and i know [8:30] what he's saying again now if you have the numbers and he forgets and later on he had to eat crow [8:37] later on he is quoted in the media na nakapagalitan siguro siya sabi niya pasesyan ako kayo i apologize [8:46] sabi niya uh hindi ko kayo hindi sinusunod uh i will irrevocably revocably resign from the [8:54] speakership of the house so you know it creates a very very bad impression of the senate that they're now [9:01] after their position not the truth not the public interest but their power and that is very very [9:09] bad especially when you start thinking of all the problems that are currently today with the problems [9:15] of uh uh uh maraming mga magkamag-anak sa senado nagkakalitan ang problema oh yeah i agree with that i brought [9:24] that up before yung napakahirap na sa senado 24 na nga lang magkakamag-anak pa yung mga tao right there should be [9:32] a law against that yes actually the best law is the people uh itong impeach ito ito and they [9:38] kinikaw ko sayo kanina uh manunod ang tao and uh pag nanunod ang tao katulad din sinabi nung [9:45] ay nung binuksan na yung uh bangko nung nakaraang presidente talagang nagimbal na ang tao nagunod na ang tao [9:54] and that's what they're trying to prevent let's cut from let's cut to the chase the only thing these [10:00] people are trying to do is to prevent or derail the impeachment they're they know they're going [10:07] to win the impeachment because they have the votes but when you start investigating and it's going to [10:14] be open to the general public and there will probably be demonstrations outside the senate and [10:19] the senate's halls will be packed with people ay naku pag lumabas sa yung mga yan mahirap nang makalusot [10:25] pahirap nang ilusot yung nakikitang malinaw na ebidensya kung lalo ba siya mga ebidensya [10:30] all right now senator let's talk about the numbers because you have your own experience with the [10:36] impeachment you were there uh you were a senator during corona no corona no no no no i was never in the [10:42] impeachment i was in the honorable committee for 12 years but after na corona yeah after after [10:52] after okay all right now um you need 16 to essentially convict uh senator laxon said that's [11:01] the number regardless of how many there are in the senate in absentia or not it's quite clear you need [11:08] 16. looking at the makeup of the senate now do you believe they'll be able to get 16 to convict it [11:17] depends on uh the mood of the public if the mood of the public becomes angry i'm sure some people will [11:23] cross over because the heat and the pressure will be so much mapapahiya na yan no uh from the other [11:31] hand i'm trying to remember uh the provision in this one uh this isa nasabi lang a mandatory two-thirds [11:39] vote of all its members how do you get two-thirds of all its members the two-thirds become lower [11:58] 16 votes or out of 24 it's just a conclusion by all of us the two-thirds of 24 is uh 16 oh but then [12:09] that's interesting because tama naman kayo kung this is very hypothetical that's in the case of death [12:15] so let's say kung 24 alimbawa may nangyari dalawa na matay 22 magbabago ang two-thirds [12:22] pero let's say like ito si bato nagtatago let's say may isa pang senador na hypothetically but [12:29] detained they are still considered members of the senate right not if they're under arrest already is that [12:37] right but is that clear but is that clear senator gordon na kapag na-arresto ka na detained eh hindi ka [12:45] pa convicted hindi ka na considered na member well no you're still a member but your uh independence [12:52] would be questionable because you're under the custody of somebody else oh but meaning you can't [12:59] vote but then you're still a member so the two-thirds remains to be 16. that is uh that has to be seen [13:06] because uh death penalty uh or yeah or plunder no uh you you you'll not be given bail right away you're [13:20] not you're not there you're gonna go out and uh the constitution really speaks of a situation where [13:27] you have to be present because in an impeachment you have to see the demeanor of the witnesses yeah i agree [13:33] with you there so no looking at your demeanor as well how you ask questions you're depriving the [13:39] public of that so i think about present oh no i agree with you present in terms of voting but my question [13:47] is no present in terms of the debates also i see so naliniwala kayo nakapag wala don personally [13:55] dapat hindi na yun i-consider na member ng senate ng impeachment court rather parang ganon i'm saying [14:03] that this is a case of first impression we've never had the situation uh which the supreme court may [14:09] be asked to look into but as far as i'm concerned as a lawyer all the members does not specify 16. it just [14:16] says two-thirds of all the members of the senate uh of all his members now all of his members is 24. [14:25] but like i said if something happens like uh force but you're no death i think death would be clear [14:33] that then you'll have let's say 23 members but i think it's debatable if somebody is detained [14:39] yes or arrested right yes yes arrested that's interesting you're right because i want to [14:46] arrest you from the icc permanent and then doon are you still considered a member and even here [14:52] because to me to me the fact that you're under custody will be uh pressure uh they can say open [14:59] relation and the superintendent non-presso uh so there will be questions about that it's a very very [15:06] far-fetched pressure i don't think they'll do that but the point is uh the 34 is not uh a real number [15:14] it depends on the current situation like i say come a plane crash when i'm apart then it becomes 20. [15:23] that's an interesting interpretation but let's say uh like antonio trilianis he was already he was [15:29] detained and i remember covering him uh and he was doing senate work inside the detention cell [15:35] um um i i he was in a camp but his staff was there he was doing work now unlike they allowed trilianis [15:44] to participate but i don't know if he voted for he was allowed to vote but on the other hand lila [15:50] delima when she was detained she was not allowed to do senate work inside her cell or even participate so [15:59] that's the thing about the senate the rules kind of they they're so flexible depending [16:05] on the administration mali yun eh it's almost a microphone of the philippines oh yeah [16:11] yeah pagkakasama tayo pagbidyan natin kasama natin yan o kung police tayo sundaro tayo magkabaro [16:17] tayo huwag na natin hulihin yan tumingin na lang tayo sa kabila diba this is the problem with our country [16:22] that is why we are uh in a very very serious situation the whole world is looking at us they saw bato running in [16:30] the senate they saw the senate saying you are under the protective custody and they saw lumabasida [16:36] they saw nagbarila sa senado uh they saw all the things that the aimi marcos is now saying so the [16:41] whole world is watching us and here we are asking come over we have a perfect uh place for investment [16:47] there's a rule of law that is predictable that is consistent and all of this show it is not and if [16:53] that is the case then you are hurting our country severely all right my last question [16:59] is the change of leadership senator laxon said also that it's clear that you need 13 votes [17:07] he said in the interview hindi and open to interpretation 13 pa rin ang kailangan to change [17:13] the leader the senate president would you agree with that interpretation [17:23] precisely uh 13 is the majority in a 24-month senate all right good point good point okay but but if you [17:33] if you say uh 22 now no uh so it the the law abhors a vacuum hindi na pwede kong hindi kayo wala [17:44] nang 24 eh pipirito pa yung 16 o pipirito pa yung 13 wala nang 24 kailangan the law will now find its way [17:51] uh to making sure uh that uh the law proceeds uh with the uh course of business of the senate [17:58] oh you know senator gordon the i think you make strong points on this especially masagot yung 13 [18:05] and 16 but clearly that will that's not clear right it's not clear but you're right the law abhors a [18:12] vacuum so does this mean that the supreme court this has to be clarified in the supreme court or can just [18:18] senators take a vote on a matter like this well indeed that's why uh we are snake bit we're toxic [18:26] right now we cannot find a united senate so it's an impasse right so if there is an abuse of discretion [18:37] uh like this one here the courts and i i say this very very gingerly the courts will not usually [18:45] intervene in a co-equal branch of government but if you create an impasse then that might be grounds [18:53] for the supreme court to come in because there is a constitutional crisis the government is paralyzed [19:00] somebody has to come in and define what you mean by 13 or what you mean by all its members uh [19:07] uh and uh division of the you know you might even have to look at the uh the debates in the [19:13] constitutional convention because why did they not say 16 outright no uh uh good point [19:23] so you have to look at what do you mean by all of its members all of its members are living all of [19:28] its members who are free to vote uh or that uh you know i remember when uh i was in the constitutional [19:34] convention walter garcia god rest his soul he called me he was very sick and he wanted to vote [19:40] and i asked the the leadership at the time when i want to see see but there uh anyway he's a member [19:47] but he has to be here i mean i don't know he has to be here oh so no i don't know that he has to be here [19:56] yeah he has to be here oh that's right well i i think this is a good point to raise before the [20:01] impeachment trial is somebody should bring it actually to the courts is what is the definition [20:07] of all its members and and if you look at the article on involving quorum it says uh uh very very [20:15] clearly i think it says uh uh uh let me just take a look uh uh uh uh except during the election of [20:24] officers uh uh i think it's a section 45 uh uh smaller number uh well nakalaga dyan i shall [20:36] except during the election says a majority of the senators it says a majority of the senators [20:43] not a specific number oh oh oh oh a majority of the senators so let's say pito lang yung nasa [20:51] floor or let's say huwag nalang naman pito let's say nasa floor lang 11. uh uh majority count pwede na yon [20:59] that is uh under rule 40 section 44 rules of the senate on quorum but of course they also have [21:05] another rule when it comes to uh the impeachment when it comes to the voting but the point is [21:11] the constitution never said 16 precisely because they don't know what's going to happen in the future [21:17] mm-hmm interesting interesting good points good points there all right well i'm sorry i don't [21:26] mean to interrupt sir but we we're now past we're now over time senator gordon no no but thank you so [21:34] much thank you so much for that discussion so i do hope to have you again on head start especially [21:41] when the impeachment trial starts you'd be a great resource person for that thank you sir thank you [21:48] very much i'm very happy to see you and uh discuss this for the benefit of the people thank you