Gordon: 'Bakit panay may kaso nilagay sa Blue Ribbon Committee?' a fair question — ANC

[0:00] we're now joined by former senate blue ribbon committee chairman richard gordon good morning [0:05] to you sir thank you karen for inviting me i'm saying that because uh some of the trolls are [0:11] saying i'm presenting myself to media i'm not i keep getting invited oh wow so you have that [0:18] particular trolling accusation yes you are invited always now i want to ask you is it common is it [0:26] allowed for a subcommittee to be formed unilaterally so to speak what is the process [0:34] normally the chairman has the uh option to appoint a subcommittee but he would have to tell [0:41] the senate as a whole the plenary or the president the senate president but that is allowed uh but [0:49] the more important problem here is uh uh the composition now of the blue label committee [0:56] which so far has had no minority representation so you don't have any minority representation that is [1:02] uh that is a farce so the minority has to be included in the blue ribbon committee and if i remember [1:09] correctly you usually have about 17 or 18 members uh in the blue ribbon committee so that's practically [1:16] the whole senate especially now okay so sa ngayon eh posible naman sir na hindi pa convened no as a whole [1:25] so posibleng pumasok pa ang minority or can the minority protest the leadership or the formation of [1:33] the subcommittee and refuse to join can the minority do that of course i mean the minority's voice uh must [1:41] be heard that's why you have a minority and you cannot allow the tyranny of the majority to prevail [1:47] and uh in this particular instance there is room and very very important reason to speak out because [1:55] now you're not only straining the reputation and credibility of the senate uh but also the senate [2:03] blue ribbon committee which is the premier committee uh in the senate that is assigned to uh look at the [2:10] liability of public officers criminal liability of public officers and so when you make this [2:17] presentation now that's a fair comment because uh that is in fact uh been exposed to the public uh [2:29] the barcoleta himself has uh practically hanged himself by making uh statements uh that harms that [2:38] harm him uh and uh admitting that he took money even if he did that uh it was during the elections [2:45] that by itself is admission and that goes into uh plunder and at the same time uh indirect bribery [2:54] which is uh punishable now the self-reliable committee is supposed to look at the malfeasance [3:00] misfeasance and non-feasance and on other uh important uh elements that uh that uh involve officers and [3:08] employees of government implementation of the constitutional provisions on nepotism and investigation of any [3:13] matter of public interest on its own initiative or brought to his attention by any senator so again [3:19] a big big question mark right away uh especially uh with this record and of delicia sa blue river [3:26] committee and he said i sabi kay chairman lakson at that time lucy duteza bayon yung marine yeah duteza [3:33] or league duteza he appeared there at and he appeared to be coaching him he appeared to know everything that was in [3:39] the in the in the affidavit which is where but uh he knew right away that he was already reading the [3:45] wrong thing which means that that uh affidavit is probably by benefactor in somebody's law office [3:51] probably close to parkureta and so what happens now is uh luteza has disappeared and it's even uh [3:59] fractured by the fact that uh uh he went into a note it was not raised by uh allegedly by somebody in [4:05] manila who later on came out and said no i did not not realize that so are you saying no senator [4:12] gordon are you saying that uh there's a conflict of interest or marcoleta is compromised to be the [4:19] head of the subcommittee of the senate blue ribbon because of the very issues that he's facing yes i think [4:27] he's severely compromised because uh any witness can now say uh i remember one time i was having a [4:35] hearing and the witness told one of the senators so that way that that right away puts a big block [4:47] on the credibility of the investigators of the senate blue label committee so we really have to be [4:52] careful uh uh that's why it's important that the senate president tarry a little because he's he's [4:59] running at 10 000 miles per hour running roughshod and uh uh uh now in terms of senate intramurals no um [5:11] it's quite close so you have the majority at 13 minus bato who's now in absentia they're 12 [5:18] and then you have 11 minority so at this point the majority one would say is not so secure because [5:26] they're not an overwhelming majority but ito can the minority already at this point just analysis [5:34] can they already be obstructionist to anything that the majority may want to push because they're quite [5:41] solid yung 11 so we saw it in the walkout that's one right the walkout but in other things for example [5:50] you said you can't have a blue ribbon committee na walang minority wala pang minority if they all refuse [5:56] to be a part of the blue ribbon committee because of the insistence of forming a subcommittee [6:02] pwede ba nila gawin yun sir oh definitely uh and if they're not uh recognized they can go on the very [6:10] famous word filibuster they can go on filibuster and nobody can stop you uh for so long as you stand on the [6:17] podium or on the uh the platform and just speak and speak and speak and you know ask questions [6:23] they cannot stop the minority they cannot muzzle the minority so is senate president alan peters [6:30] cayetano his leadership is it problematic at this point how would you describe it i think that he has [6:37] a very severe problem uh in terms of credibility uh how he got in at first he said this is really an [6:46] effort to try and correct the senate situation and then batok came out to this statement that [6:50] then i work sure in apple this is a silado para manalo uh sila at uh coming in the heels of uh the [6:58] pending investigation uh sa impeachment uh and all of them are identified with the past administration [7:06] being a former vice president uh and later on was designated by president duterte a speaker in a [7:14] sharing agreement uh and you should look into that karen because that sharing agreement created another [7:21] ruckus in the speaker in the speakership in the house in the lower house nagkagulo sila doon [7:28] kaitano said oh no uh may violence that he thought uh naglagay na sila ng kandado dito and then uh you [7:35] know combine numbers he keeps repeating the same thing that he's saying now if you have the numbers oh so what [7:41] you're saying is there's a pattern this this has already been done yes yes yes in a sense it with [7:47] with kayatano you're saying as possibly taking on the helm of speakership it's a repeat yes yes in effect [7:56] he's bordering on what we call recidivism only he's not been convicted because he for recidivism you have [8:01] to be convicted twice but he's done it twice now although he's not convicted into the mighty halls of power [8:08] the speaker the speaker of the house where they agreed that tatlo kayo a dalawa kayo uh [8:13] uh papalit kayo mid-october ikaw buna kaitano and then later on uh uh i think uh marinduque see uh uh [8:20] i forget the speaker no uh and then later on when that happened he refused he refused to give [8:26] it to velasco the speaker anything okay and i quote what he's saying again now if you have the numbers [8:33] come and he forgets and he forgets and later on he had to eat crow later on he is quoted in the media [8:42] na nakapagalitan siguro siya sabi niya i apologize sabi niya uh i will irrevocably resign from the [8:54] speakership of the house so you know it creates a very very bad impression of the senate that they're now [9:01] after their position not the truth not the public interest but their power and that is very very [9:09] bad especially when you start thinking of all the problems that are currently today with the [9:14] problems of uh uh uh maraming mga magkamag-anak the senado nagkakalitan ang problema oh yeah i agree [9:23] with that i brought that up before yung napakahirap na sa senado 24 na nga lang magkakamag-anak pa yung mga [9:30] tao right there should be a law against that yes actually the best law is the people [9:36] uh itong impeachment ko ko sayo kanina uh manunod ang tao and uh pag nanunod ang tao [9:44] katulad din sinabi nung ay nung binuksan na yung uh bangko nung nakaraang presidente [9:49] yes talagang nagimbal na ang tao nagunod na ang tao kaya nagkano na ng second edsa and that's what they're [9:55] trying to prevent let's cut from let's cut to the chase the only thing these people are trying to [10:01] do is to prevent or derail the impeachment they know they're gonna win the impeachment because [10:09] they have the votes but when you start investigating and it's going to be open to the general public [10:16] and there will probably be demonstrations outside the senate and the senate's halls will be packed with [10:21] people all right now senator let's talk about the numbers because you have your own experience with [10:36] the impeachment you were there uh you were a senator during corona no corona no no no no i was never [10:42] in the impeachment i was in the honorable committee for 12 years but after the corona yeah after now [10:49] pero after nanon after after after okay all right now um you need 16 to essentially convict uh senator [11:00] laxon said that's the number regardless of how many there are in the senate in absentia or not [11:06] it's quite clear you need 16. looking at the makeup of the senate now do you believe they'll be able to [11:14] get 16 to convict it depends on uh the mood of the public if the mood of the public becomes angry i'm sure [11:23] some people will cross over because the heat and the pressure will be so much uh from the other hand [11:31] i'm trying to remember uh the provision in this uh one uh it's an example like a mandatory two-thirds [11:40] world of all its members how do you get two-thirds of all its members the two-thirds become lower [11:52] oh oh it doesn't say two-thirds or 16 votes or out of 24 it's just uh a conclusion by all of us [12:04] the two-thirds of 24 is uh 16 oh but then that's interesting because tama naman kayo kung this is [12:12] very hypothetical that's in the case of death so let's say kung 24 alimbawa may nangyari dalawa na matay 22 [12:20] magbabago ang two-thirds pero let's say like ito si bato nagtatago let's say may isa pang senador na [12:28] hypothetically madetain they are still considered members of the senate right not if they're under arrest [12:36] already is that right but is that clear but is that clear senator gordon na kapag na-arresto ka na [12:44] detained eh hindi ka pa convicted hindi ka na considered na member well no you're still a member but [12:50] your uh independence would be questionable because you're under the custody of somebody else oh but [12:58] meaning you can't vote but then you're still a member so the two-thirds remains to be 16. that is uh [13:05] that has to be seen because uh death penalty uh or yeah or plunder no uh you you you let me give [13:18] a bail right away you're not you're not bail you're gonna go out and uh the constitution really speaks [13:26] of a situation where you have to be present because in an impeachment you have to see the demeanor of the [13:31] witnesses yeah no i agree with you there so no looking at your demeanor as well how you ask questions [13:38] you're depriving the public of that so i think that about present oh no i agree with you present in terms [13:45] of voting but my question is if the debates also i see so nariniwala kayo nakapag wala don personally [13:55] dapat hindi na yun i-consider na member ng senate ng impeachment court rather parang ganon i'm saying [14:03] that this is a case of first impression we've never had this situation uh which the supreme court may [14:09] be asked to look into but as far as i'm concerned as a lawyer all the members does not specify 16 it just [14:16] says two-thirds of all the members of the senate uh of all his members but now all of his members is 24 but [14:25] like i said if something happens like uh force but you're no death i think death would be clear [14:34] that then you'll have let's see 23 members but i think it's debatable if somebody is detained [14:39] yes or arrested right yes arrested that's interesting you're right kasi paano kung na-arresto ka [14:46] ng icc permanent na nandun ka are you still considered a member and even here because to me to me the fact [14:53] that you're under custody will be uh pressure uh they can say open ration and superintendent ng preso [15:02] uh so there will be questions about that it's a very very far-fetched pressure i don't think they'll [15:08] do that but the point is uh the 34 is not uh a real number it depends on the current situation like i [15:17] say commit plane crash when i'm up at then it becomes 20. no no that's an interesting interpretation [15:25] but let's say uh like antonio trilianis he was already he was detained and i remember covering him [15:32] uh and he was doing senate work inside the detention cell um i i he was in a camp but his staff was there he [15:40] was doing work now unlike they they allowed trilianis to participate but i don't know if he [15:46] voted for he was allowed to vote but on the other hand lila delima when she was detained she was not [15:53] allowed to do senate work inside her cell or even participate so that's the thing about the senate [16:00] uh the rules kind of they they're so flexible depending on the administration mali yun [16:07] eh so almost a microcosm of the philippines oh yeah [16:11] this is the problem with our country that is why we are uh in a very very serious situation the whole [16:27] world is looking at us they saw bato running in the senate they saw the senate saying you are under the [16:33] protective custody and they saw lumabas sila they saw nagbarila sa senado uh they saw all the things that [16:39] uh i mean marcos is now saying so the whole world is watching us and here we are asking come over we [16:45] have a perfect uh place for investment there's a rule of law that is predictable that is consistent [16:50] and all of this show it is not and if that is the case then you are hurting our country severely [16:57] all right my last question is the change of leadership senator luxon said also that it's clear [17:04] that you need 13 votes kumbaga he said in the interview hindi and open to interpretation 13 [17:11] pa rin ang kailangan to change the leader the senate president would you agree with that [17:17] kasi rin ito lang tayo sa interpretation wala rin yung isa wala rin si bato [17:23] precisely uh 13 is the majority in a 24-man senate all right good point good point okay but but if you [17:33] if you say 22 now no uh so it the the law abhors a vacuum hindi na po hindi kong hindi kayo wala [17:44] nang 24 eh pipirito pa yung 16 or pipirito pa yung 13 wala nang 24 kailangan the law will now [17:51] find this way uh to making sure that uh the law proceeds uh with the uh course of business of [17:57] the senate oh you know senator gordon the i think you make strong points on this especially masagot [18:04] yung 13 and 16 but clearly that will that's not clear right it's not clear but you're right [18:11] the law abhors a vacuum so does this mean that the supreme court this has to be clarified [18:17] in the supreme court or can just senators take a vote on a matter like this well indeed that's why [18:23] uh we are snake bit we're toxic right now we cannot find a united senate so it's an impasse right so [18:34] if there is an abuse of discretion uh like this one here the courts and i i say this very very gingerly [18:43] the courts will not usually intervene in a co-equal branch of government if you create an impasse [18:51] then that might be grounds for the supreme court to come in because there is a constitutional crisis [18:58] the government is paralyzed somebody has to come in and define what you mean by 13 or what you mean by [19:05] all its members uh and the division of the you know you might even have to look at the uh the debates in [19:13] the constitutional convention because why did they not say 16 outright no uh so you have to look at [19:24] what do you mean by all of its members all of these members are living all of these members who are free [19:29] to vote uh or that uh you know i remember when uh i was in the constitutional convention voltair garcia [19:36] god rest his soul he called me he was very sick and he wanted to vote and i asked the the leadership [19:43] at that time when i want to see see voltaire uh anyway he's a member but he has to be here [19:49] i mean i don't know he has to be here oh oh so no i don't know that he has to be here [19:56] yeah he has to be here oh that's right well i i think this is a good point to raise before the [20:02] impeachment trial is somebody should bring it actually to the courts is what is the definition of [20:08] all its members and and if you look at the article on involving quorum it says uh uh very very clearly [20:16] i think it says uh uh let me just take a look uh uh it says uh uh except during the election of officers [20:25] uh i think it's a section 45 uh uh a smaller number uh well nakalagayan i shall except during the [20:37] election says a majority of the senators it says a majority of the senators not a specific number [20:45] oh oh oh oh oh a majority of the senators so let's say pito lang yung nasa floor or let's say [20:52] huwag na lang naman pito let's say nasa floor lang 11. basta a majority count pwede na yon [20:59] that is uh under rule 40 section 44 rules of the senate on quorum but of course they also have another rule [21:06] when it comes to uh the impeachment when it comes to the voting but the point is the constitution [21:12] never said 16 precisely because they don't know what's going to happen in the future [21:19] interesting interesting good points good points there all right well i'm sorry i don't need to [21:26] interrupt sir but we we're now past we're now over time senator gordon no no no but thank you so much [21:35] thank you so much for that discussion so i do hope to have you again on head start especially when the [21:42] impeachment trial starts you'd be a great resource person for that thank you sir thank you very much [21:48] i'm very happy to see you and uh discuss this for the benefit of the people thank you