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Full video: Jennifer McCabe's cross-examination on Day 8 of Karen Read trial testimony

CBS Boston June 15, 2026 3h 37m 28,895 words
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About this transcript: This is a full AI-generated transcript of Full video: Jennifer McCabe's cross-examination on Day 8 of Karen Read trial testimony from CBS Boston, published June 15, 2026. The transcript contains 28,895 words with timestamps and was generated using Whisper AI.

"Jackson, whenever you're ready. Thank you, Your Honor. Good morning, Ms. McCabe. Good morning. I'd like to draw your attention back to the time that you were watching the SUV out of the front door, through the front door at 34 Fair. Do you have that time in mind? I never watched it, but I went and..."

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Jackson, whenever you're ready. [00:00:01] Speaker 2: Thank you, Your Honor. Good morning, Ms. McCabe. [00:00:03] Speaker 3: Good morning. [00:00:04] Speaker 2: I'd like to draw your attention back to the time that you were watching the SUV out of the front door, through the front door at 34 Fair. Do you have that time in mind? [00:00:16] Speaker 3: I never watched it, but I went and looked at it. [00:00:19] Speaker 2: Saw it? [00:00:19] Speaker 3: Saw it, yes. [00:00:20] Speaker 2: All right. I just want to clear up one of the time frames that you indicated you last saw that SUV. You saw that SUV for the final time at 12.45 a.m., correct? It was up past the flagpole at that point. [00:00:34] Speaker 3: I can't be sure of a specific time. [00:00:37] Speaker 2: You indicated at a prior hearing in June of 2023 that you, in fact, did see it for the last time at 12.45, and you know that because of a text message that you sent at 12.45. Is that right? [00:00:53] Speaker 3: I did send a text message at 12.45. That is correct. [00:00:56] Speaker 2: Did you say, quote, and by the way, for a court and counsel, this is 782, lines 24 through 25, going to 783, lines 1 through 13 or so? Actually, 1 through 3. It's 782, going to 783. May I approach you on it? Yes. Mr. Brennan. [00:01:31] Speaker 4: Hang on, Frank. Sorry. Thank you very much. No problem. [00:01:40] Speaker 2: Actually, Miss Buccaev, and for a court and counsel, I'm going to back up just a little bit up to line 20. You stated, quote, so I think my husband and I were talking just like about what they were doing. And then I sat back down. And then at one point, I think I said, hello. And then I said, at 12.42, where are you? And then flip, I don't know if that's my last text or if I did one more. Yeah, 12.45, hello. Because they were still there. And then question. So the dark SUV was still outside the house at 12.45. Answer, at 12.45. Do you remember that question and answer colloquy back in June of 2023? [00:02:29] Speaker 3: I've been asked a number of questions, specifically that, those words, no. I do remember testifying. I believe I said, I think, in there. I think that, and to be honest, I'm not sure of exactly the times I didn't pay close attention to when I was texting and when I was sitting. I was going back and forth to the door. [00:02:55] Speaker 2: But in June of 2023, at a hearing under oath, you did say that it was at 12.45 that you last saw the vehicle. [00:03:03] Speaker 3: I believe I said, I think. I believe the word I think is in there. [00:03:14] Speaker 5: You believe, but you're not sure. [00:03:16] Speaker 3: Okay, I'll look at it. Will it refresh your recollection? Sure. [00:03:18] Speaker 5: May I approach? Yes. Thank you. [00:03:23] Speaker 3: You're welcome. [00:03:35] Speaker 2: Does that refresh your recollection indicate what you said in June of 2023 about seeing the SUV at the location at 12.45? [00:04:04] Speaker 3: I see what I read. Sorry. I saw what I just read. I don't remember my exact words of every testimony, but I did just read that. Yes. [00:04:14] Speaker 2: And in fact, what you said back in June of 2023, quote, I don't know if it's my last text or if I did one more. Yeah. 12.45. Hello. Because they were still there, period. Correct? That's a part of what I said. And then the question was, so the dark SUV was still outside the house at 12.45. Answer, at 12.45. [00:04:38] Speaker 3: And then I said, I think, my husband and I. So there's more to that conversation. [00:04:43] Speaker 2: What I read you is what transcript indicates. You said on June 8th, 2023. Correct? Yeah. [00:04:52] Speaker 1: Can you answer that? Is that correct? That I saw it at that time? Ask the question again. [00:04:58] Speaker 2: Sure. That what you testified to in June of 2023 was you saw the SUV for the last time at 12.45. That's what you said. At least back then. [00:05:11] Speaker 3: That's part of what I said. [00:05:22] Speaker 2: I don't know if that's my last text or if I did one more. Yeah. 12.45. Hello. Because they were still there. Question, so the dark SUV was still outside at 12, outside the house at 12.45. [00:05:40] Speaker 6: Answer, at 12.05. That's what you actually testified to in June of 2024. [00:05:46] Speaker 3: That's what that says. Correct. [00:05:48] Speaker 5: Thank you. [00:05:52] Speaker 2: You've been asked about with whom you communicated first thing in the morning when you received that 4.53 a.m. call, at that call and thereafter, shortly thereafter, within those next few minutes, correct? Yes. As a matter of fact, you were asked by Trooper Prince in a formal interview on February 1st, 2022. I know that was a while ago, but in that initial formal interview, three days after the event, Trooper Prince, the female trooper, asked you who you called or who you communicated with during that important few minutes after you received the first phone call from Kaylee's phone, correct? [00:06:33] Speaker 3: I'm not sure of our exact conversation, but she did ask me a number of questions. [00:06:37] Speaker 2: Do you remember telling her, I spoke with Karen Reed, obviously. [00:06:42] Speaker 3: Again, I answered whatever question she asked me. So if she asked, I did speak with Karen Reed that morning, correct? [00:06:48] Speaker 2: Okay, Ms. McCabe, my question is, did you tell Trooper Prince three days after the fact, I spoke with Karen Reed? Yes or no? [00:06:54] Speaker 3: If you have a report, I don't remember the specifics. I met with many, many police officers. Sure. [00:07:10] Speaker 2: Would it refresh your recollections to take a look at her report? [00:07:15] Speaker 3: I'd take a look at it, yes. Thank you. [00:07:17] Speaker 6: May I approach? Yes. Thank you very much. You're welcome. [00:07:23] Speaker 3: Thank you. [00:07:29] Speaker 2: Ms. McCabe, you can familiarize yourself with that report, and there's a tab if that helps you, because it's somewhat lengthy. Okay. See if that refreshes your recollection. [00:07:38] Speaker 3: Thank you. [00:07:40] Speaker ?: Thank you. Okay. Okay. May I approach? Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. [00:08:26] Speaker 2: May I approach? Yes. Ms. McCabe, did that refresh your recollection as to what you told Trooper Prince? [00:08:50] Speaker 3: I know what happened, so I just answered the questions. [00:08:54] Speaker 2: Yes or no? Does that refresh your recollection as to what you told Trooper Prince? Yes. Okay. [00:08:59] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:08:59] Speaker 2: You told Trooper Prince that you had a conversation on Kaylee's phone with Ms. Reed, correct? Yes. That you also called Julie Albert after you got off the phone with Ms. Reed the first time. Yes. And then thereafter, at some point, you talked to Tom Beattie, correct? [00:09:12] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:09:13] Speaker ?: I never spoke with Tom. [00:09:13] Speaker 2: I'm sorry. My mistake. I misspoke. You called Tom Beattie. [00:09:17] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:09:18] Speaker 2: I called Tom Beattie. [00:09:19] Speaker 3: Did not get through to Tom Beattie. I didn't. No one answered. [00:09:22] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:09:23] Speaker 2: Then you spoke at the grand jury about the same issue. Who did you talk to and who did you call in those minutes after the initial call on Kaylee's phone, correct? I don't know if that would like to be heard. [00:09:35] Speaker 1: All right. Come on up. [00:09:53] Speaker ?: We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. [00:12:44] Speaker 2: May I, Your Honor? [00:12:44] Speaker 1: Yes. [00:12:45] Speaker 2: Thank you. Ms. McCabe, you were also asked the same series of questions about or a series of questions about the same events concerning that 453 phone call and the calls that you made shortly thereafter. Correct? Yes. And in that testimony, you also, consistent with what you said to Trooper Prince, said, I spoke with Karen Reed on Kaylee's phone. I then spoke with Julie Albert, or I called Julie Albert, and then I called Tom Beattie. Correct? I agree. [00:13:12] Speaker 1: That objection sustained. [00:13:14] Speaker 2: What did you tell the grand jurors about who you called or who you attempted to communicate with in those first few minutes after that 453 a.m. call? [00:13:23] Speaker 3: I don't know exactly what I said on that day, but I know who I spoke to. [00:13:30] Speaker 2: You said on that day, you spoke to Karen Reed, correct? On which day? What are we talking about? The day of the grand jury. Okay. That would be April 26, 2022. [00:13:44] Speaker 3: I don't have the paper in front of me, so I don't know my exact words. [00:13:49] Speaker 2: Well, I'm not asking you for your exact words, but did you tell them, as you sit here, do you remember telling the grand jurors under questioning by the Commonwealth that you spoke with Karen Reed? [00:14:01] Speaker 3: I spoke with Karen Reed that morning. Again, I don't, I've been at many grand juries and different things, so to remember specifically, I don't remember specific questions and specific answers, but yes, Karen Reed did call me that morning on Kaylee's phone. [00:14:16] Speaker 2: My question is, what did you say to the grand jurors when you're saying you don't remember? [00:14:23] Speaker 3: What question are you asking me? [00:14:25] Speaker 2: Who, whom did you attempt to communicate with in those first few minutes after you first received the phone call on Kaylee's phone? [00:14:35] Speaker 3: If you're asking me now, I can answer you. I'm asking you. I don't remember this. I'm sorry. I don't remember the specifics. If you want to show me and then I can review it, I know the answer to the question. I'm just not sure of my exact words on that day. [00:14:51] Speaker 2: I didn't ask you what your exact words were. I'm asking you about your memory. You're testifying based on your memories, okay? Are you not? [00:14:57] Speaker 1: Go ahead and answer that question. Are you answering these questions based on your memory, Ms. McCabe? [00:15:05] Speaker 3: So I'm answering questions based on my memory of what happened on the 28th and the 29th. I've testified multiple times. I've been interviewed by multiple police officers, so to pinpoint one conversation is a bit of a challenge for me. But what I can tell you is what I remember from that day, which was, I'm sure, very similar to however I answered, because it's the same. Okay. [00:15:30] Speaker 2: Can I ask? Yes? Can I ask? [00:15:33] Speaker 1: Can I ask? [00:15:34] Speaker 2: Can I ask? Sure. 188-189. Thank you. [00:15:38] Speaker 3: Thank you. [00:15:39] Speaker 2: I didn't get an answer to that question, Ms. McCabe. I have to do this for the record. I'll look at it, yes. [00:15:44] Speaker ?: Okay. I'll look at it, yes. Okay. [00:15:44] Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. [00:15:46] Speaker 6: Okay. [00:15:47] Speaker 3: I'll look at it, yes. [00:16:17] Speaker ?: OK. May I approach? Yes. Thank you. [00:16:22] Speaker 2: Did I press a recollection about what you told the grand jurors in terms of whom you communicated with or attempted to communicate with that morning? Yes. [00:16:47] Speaker 3: I told them that I communicated with Ms. Reed and that I called Julie Albert. [00:16:54] Speaker 2: And Tom Beattie. [00:16:56] Speaker 3: Oh, and Tom Beattie. I'm sorry. [00:16:58] Speaker 2: Right. So in both of those statements to Trooper Prince when you were asked about your communications and at the grand jury. By the way, at the grand jury, when you were asked who you communicated with that morning, you didn't need to see a report, did you? You didn't ask to see a report like you're doing here? [00:17:17] Speaker 3: Well, I'm asking because you're asking specific questions about what I said on a specific day. And depending on who's asking the question, they ask questions in a different manner. So the answer is always going to be the same. If you ask me who I spoke to, I'm always going to tell you I spoke to Ms. Reed and Julie. I called Julie Albert and I called Tom Beattie. The answer is always the same, but the way the question asked and maybe some of the words that I use may be different. And I don't remember on specific days. I've been questioned many times, but the answers are always going to be the same. The wording may be different. [00:17:53] Speaker 2: You done? [00:17:55] Speaker 1: French, did I answer? [00:17:58] Speaker 3: Yes, I am. Okay. [00:18:00] Speaker 1: I'm going to allow that, but let's move on. Wait. I'm trying to argue. [00:18:06] Speaker 5: When the Commonwealth asked questions about who you contacted at home, after Grad 30, you didn't need to have your recollection refreshed with anything. You said, "I talked to Karen Reed. I called Julie Albert. I called Tom Beattie." Correct? [00:18:19] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:18:20] Speaker 2: And that's exactly what you told Trooper Prince as well. Karen Reed, Julie Albert, Tom Beattie. Is that right? [00:18:31] Speaker 3: Yes. Correct. [00:18:33] Speaker 2: But you did make another phone call that morning that you left out of both of those statements, didn't you? [00:18:39] Speaker 3: I'm not sure. [00:18:41] Speaker 2: At 5:07 a.m., you called over to 34 Fairview, didn't you? [00:18:48] Speaker 3: If it's in my phone record, then I must have. [00:18:52] Speaker 2: It's in your phone records that you're aware of. Well, let me ask it a different way. You're aware that your phone records actually show that at 5:07, you called the 34 Fairview, Nicole Albert's phone. Correct? Correct. It shows also that that call lasted 38 seconds. Correct? [00:19:13] Speaker 3: I'm not sure what it shows. [00:19:15] Speaker 2: You actually spoke to your sister, Nicole, that morning? [00:19:19] Speaker 3: I did not speak to my sister, no. [00:19:21] Speaker 2: So that 38-second call went to voicemail? I'm not sure. [00:19:26] Speaker 3: All I can tell you is I never spoke to my sister, Nicole, that morning prior to waking her up. [00:19:30] Speaker 2: But you do acknowledge that you made a phone call at 5:07 to Julie Albert, I'm sorry, to Nicole Albert, your sister, over at 34 Fairview, in those early morning hours. Yes. [00:19:43] Speaker 3: I learned after. When I'm first being questioned, it's days after. It was a chaotic morning. I remembered the waterfall, Julie, then Tom Beattie. My calling to my sister wasn't as important and ingrained in my mind at that point. [00:19:59] Speaker 2: No. And then you testified at a grand jury not hours or days later. You testified at a grand jury months later, correct? Correct. And at that grand jury, you also left out the fact that you contacted your sister, correct? [00:20:15] Speaker 3: There's nothing nefarious. I remembered who I called. I didn't go back and look at phone records. [00:20:22] Speaker 2: I didn't say it was nefarious. Why would you use the word nefarious? [00:20:25] Speaker 3: Because there's nothing about me calling my sister that is nefarious. And I feel like you're insinuating it might be, and it's not. [00:20:34] Speaker 5: Did you use that word because it sounds nefarious? [00:20:37] Speaker 3: No, I just used the word because I think that's how you're trying to portray something that is nothing. [00:20:42] Speaker 5: Or did you use that word because you think that's how it's coming across? That's nefarious. No, not at all. [00:20:58] Speaker 2: Later that morning of January 29th. By the way, you do acknowledge that your phone records show that you called at 5:07 a.m. to your sister's cell phone, correct? I don't have them in front of me, but I believe that is correct, yeah. Were you calling your sister's phone to alert her of something? Is that why you called? [00:21:27] Speaker 3: No. [00:21:31] Speaker 2: Later that morning on January 29th, after those initial phone calls, and after the scene had been cleared, at about 11:30 in the morning, you did have a formal interview with Massachusetts State Trooper Michael Proctor. Did you not? [00:21:47] Speaker 3: I did, yes. [00:21:48] Speaker 2: The day before yesterday, you testified that Karen Reed, actually it was, I think it may have been Tuesday, you testified on direct examination, that Karen Reed just showed up at your house screaming, correct? Correct. Correct. In point of fact, you told Michael Proctor in that 11:30 a.m. or thereabouts, that interview that morning, that on January 29th, when Karen was on the phone with you, you told her to come to your house. Isn't that true? [00:22:17] Speaker 3: No, I never told her to come to my house. [00:22:19] Speaker 2: She told you she wanted to go search for John, and instead of saying, I'll come meet you or I'll go wherever you want to go, you told her, no, no, no, come to my house and pick me up and we'll go together, correct? No, that's incorrect. [00:22:35] Speaker ?: Do you remember talking to Trooper Proctor on that day? I do, yes. [00:22:35] Speaker 2: Do you remember exactly what you told him concerning the plan to either come to your house or go search for John? There was never a plan for Karen to come to my house. Do you remember exactly what you told him with that regard on that issue? No, I don't. Would it refresh your recollection to look at a police report that he drafted on that issue? [00:23:06] Speaker 3: Well, those are his words or summary. [00:23:09] Speaker 2: That's not my question. I know these are his words. He wrote it. My question is, would it refresh your recollection about what you told him to take a look at his report? [00:23:18] Speaker 3: I know what happened and I know what I told him. I don't know what's written in that report. [00:23:22] Speaker 2: Yes or no? [00:23:23] Speaker 3: I don't need to see the report, no. [00:23:25] Speaker 5: Because it would not refresh your recollection to see a report where he indicated that you told him that you directed Miss Reed to come to your house. [00:23:34] Speaker 4: I object. [00:23:35] Speaker 1: The objection is sustained and I'm going to strike back. [00:23:38] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:23:47] Speaker 2: You also told... Thank you, Bettina. [00:23:50] Speaker 1: Okay. Can we put this up back, please? [00:24:05] Speaker ?: I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. I'm going to take a look at the next step. May I? [00:24:53] Speaker 2: Sure. Thank you. Ms. McCabe, during that same interview, you also told Trooper Proctor that while driving back to One Meadows after you had been picked up by Karen at your house, while driving back toward One Meadows, that's actually when Ms. Reed told you she may have broken her tail light. Correct? [00:25:16] Speaker 3: Ms. Reed told me in the morning at my house. Okay. [00:25:20] Speaker 2: I know that's what you're testifying to now. Mm-hmm. What I'm asking is, what did you tell Michael Proctor on January 29th that she had told me she had a cracked tail light when she called me? You didn't tell him that she indicated she noticed her tail light had been damaged on the drive back to One Meadows? [00:25:41] Speaker 3: She mentioned it then as well, but she also had told me when she was on the phone. That's why my husband yelled out that we shouldn't be driving with a cracked tail light. [00:25:53] Speaker 2: But in fact, you did not tell Trooper Proctor that story. What you told him was she told you on the drive back to One Meadows after having picked you up. Correct? [00:26:05] Speaker 3: I told him she told me in the morning and on the drive back. [00:26:10] Speaker 2: So if he didn't write that in his report, it's obviously incorrect. Gotcha. It's his name. Of course, that drive back to One Meadows would have been 5:30ish or so. Maybe even later 5:35? Approximately. [00:26:26] Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not sure. [00:26:27] Speaker 2: Well after she backed out of the driveway and struck another vehicle at One Meadows. Correct? [00:26:35] Speaker 1: Do you know that? No, I have no idea. All right. Next question. [00:26:40] Speaker 2: Speaking of Trooper Proctor, when you first interviewed with him during that same interview on January 29th, you noticed that he was taking notes, obviously. [00:26:48] Speaker 3: Yes, he was. [00:26:49] Speaker 2: You told him about your observations of the tail light that day. Is that right? [00:26:53] Speaker 3: I have to see the report, but I believe I told him about it, yes. [00:26:59] Speaker 2: And that was literally the same day that you made the observations. Is that right? [00:27:03] Speaker 3: Yes, it was. [00:27:04] Speaker 2: He asked you to describe specifically what the tail light looked like? [00:27:08] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. [00:27:09] Speaker 2: And you did so, correct? [00:27:11] Speaker 3: Could I see the report? [00:27:14] Speaker 2: All I'm asking right now, I've got the report. Okay. If you need it, I'll give it to you. I'm asking about your memory, Ms. McCabe. Did you tell him about what the tail light looked like? [00:27:22] Speaker 3: If he asked me what the tail light looked like, then I would have told him what it looked like, yes. [00:27:27] Speaker 2: And what you told Trooper Proctor on that day is that you, quote, saw a crack in it. Is that right? [00:27:34] Speaker 3: I believe I said it was broken and cracked and it was missing pieces. [00:27:38] Speaker 2: Isn't it true that what you actually said is we got out at John's house and looked at the tail light, back right tail light, saw a crack in it, correct? [00:27:51] Speaker 3: I said that I saw it and it was cracked and it was missing pieces. You noted that he was taking notes, correct? Correct. [00:27:57] Speaker ?: Have you ever seen those notes? No. [00:27:59] Speaker 2: Would it refresh your recollection as to what you actually told him in terms of that description to take a look at his notes? [00:28:14] Speaker 1: Yes. So ask it differently. That's a stain. [00:28:17] Speaker 2: Sure. Do you remember exactly the words you used in describing that tail light to Trooper Proctor as you sit here today? [00:28:23] Speaker 3: Again, the tail light was cracked and missing pieces. Okay. [00:28:26] Speaker 2: I know that's what you're testifying to today, Ms. McCabe. We're all aware of that. You've said it four or five times now. What I'm asking you is what did you tell Trooper Proctor on January 29th? That's my question. Do you remember the exact words you used to him on the 29th? [00:28:40] Speaker 3: I believe I said it was cracked and missing pieces. [00:28:44] Speaker 2: Do you know that or are you guessing? [00:28:46] Speaker 3: I'm not guessing. [00:28:47] Speaker 2: Okay. Do you remember that specifically? [00:28:49] Speaker 3: I remember describing it as cracked and missing pieces. [00:28:53] Speaker 2: Do you remember saying it had a crack or she saw a crack in it? [00:28:57] Speaker 3: I do not remember saying that, no. [00:28:59] Speaker 2: Would it refresh your recollection to look at a copy of his notes? [00:29:02] Speaker 3: Those are his notes. [00:29:04] Speaker 2: Ms. McCabe, we can do this all day. Would it refresh your recollection to look at a copy of his notes? If it wouldn't, just tell us. No, it wouldn't. [00:29:12] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:29:23] Speaker 2: As you sit here today, are you telling this jury that you deny saying to Trooper Proctor, you saw a crack in it? Are you denying that statement? [00:29:36] Speaker 3: I'm not denying it. [00:29:37] Speaker 2: So you could have told him that. [00:29:39] Speaker 3: He asked me multiple times different questions. I spoke to him at my house and then he had called me. So maybe one time I said it had a crack in it and another time I said it was broken and missing pieces. [00:29:53] Speaker 2: So it's very possible that that's how you described it on the 29th, Ms. McCabe. It had a crack in it. Right? [00:30:00] Speaker 3: In missing pieces. [00:30:01] Speaker 2: I'm not asking you to finish my sentence. I'm asking you, is it possible that's what you told him that day? We had a crack in it. [00:30:09] Speaker 3: Yes or no? Yes, that was one way. Thank you. [00:30:12] Speaker ?: Mm-hmm. [00:30:25] Speaker 2: In the days following January 29th, in the events of January 29th, 2022, were you and your family coordinating your versions of the events that occurred on that morning? No. Were you and your family coordinating some sort of damage control in terms of the language that your family would use to the public, to the press, to law enforcement? [00:30:54] Speaker 3: No. [00:30:55] Speaker 2: Did you and your family use a group chat? You and part of your family use a group chat to text each other to coordinate your communications with either the press or the public or law enforcement or family or friends? [00:31:07] Speaker 3: I have a group. I have multiple, like, group chats with family and friends. [00:31:11] Speaker 2: You had a very specific group chat that included yourself, Nicole, your sister, Brian Albert, and Matt McCabe, correct? [00:31:20] Speaker 3: Yes, I did. [00:31:21] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:31:24] Speaker 3: Your Honor, if I may. [00:31:25] Speaker ?: Okay. I have a two-page document that I'd like to have marked. All right. Asked to approach. Sure. Sure. Thank you. Thank you. Did you show Mr. Brennan at last? Mr. Brennan, I did. I failed to show you. It's okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:31:42] Speaker 2: Thank you. Can you tell me if you recognize what's depicted or what's contained on that two-page document document? Yes. Yes. What are... [00:31:49] Speaker ?: What are... What are... Don't read it at this point. Just tell me what is it. [00:31:51] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:31:52] Speaker ?: What are... [00:31:52] Speaker 1: What are... [00:31:53] Speaker 2: Don't read it at this point. [00:31:54] Speaker 6: Just tell me what is it. [00:31:55] Speaker 5: Yes. [00:31:56] Speaker 6: Yes. [00:31:57] Speaker 5: Yes. Thank you. [00:31:59] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:32:00] Speaker 5: Thank you. You're welcome. [00:32:02] Speaker 3: Thank you. [00:32:03] Speaker 2: Can you tell me if you recognize what's depicted or what's contained on that two-page document? [00:32:13] Speaker ?: Yes. What are... [00:32:15] Speaker 3: What are... [00:32:16] Speaker 2: Don't read it at this point. Just tell me what is that. What are we looking at? [00:32:21] Speaker 3: This is a... Looks like a group chat. With me and my sister, Nicole. Oh, no. Just actually conversations with just myself and my sister, Nicole. [00:32:38] Speaker 5: Can I approach? Yes. [00:32:40] Speaker ?: I... [00:32:41] Speaker 5: I... I... I... [00:32:44] Speaker ?: I... [00:32:45] Speaker 2: Did you happen to catch the date of these chats? I just... I... [00:33:10] Speaker 3: I... I... [00:33:12] Speaker 2: I apologize. [00:33:13] Speaker ?: It's okay. [00:33:14] Speaker 1: I didn't know. Sure. Do you have an extra coffee so she has one in you? [00:33:17] Speaker 5: I'll just leave that one. I've got an extra coffee for myself. [00:33:19] Speaker 3: I'll leave that one. [00:33:20] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:33:25] Speaker 2: Do you note the date of that series of chats? [00:33:28] Speaker 3: Yes. Yes, it says 129-22. Okay. [00:33:31] Speaker 2: Is that a chat just between yourself and Miss... I'm sorry, yourself and Nicole, or is that including others as well? [00:33:37] Speaker 3: I think it's just myself and Nicole. [00:33:40] Speaker 2: Um... There was another series of chats, we'll get to that in a second, that does include Nicole, Brian, Matt McCabe, correct? Yes. On this particular set of texts, do you see the first text starting in the green box? That is a text from you to, it says Coco, correct? Yes. [00:34:01] Speaker 3: That's my sister, Nicole. [00:34:02] Speaker 2: Okay. Uh, and you recognize this text? [00:34:05] Speaker 3: I do. [00:34:06] Speaker 2: Yes. And you recognize the texts following in the following bubbles? [00:34:09] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:34:10] Speaker 2: I would ask that this be marked, uh, for, I'm sorry, moved into evidence. [00:34:15] Speaker 1: Is there any objection? [00:34:17] Speaker 2: I could review it. Sure. [00:34:19] Speaker 1: Why don't I see you at sidebar for a minute about this? All right, so the objection is noted and overruled. So, Mr. Jackson, you can put that. K for identification is now an exhibit. May I approach? Yes. Thank you. [00:34:51] Speaker 2: Thank you, Your Honor. [00:34:52] Speaker 1: So, uh, no, um, jurors, before you consider any electronic communications in your deliberations and you heard, um, Trooper Guarino read a lot of text messages the other day. I, I didn't interrupt him. I probably should have. But before you consider any electronic communications in your deliberations, you must first find that it is more likely true than not that the person who either authored or created or transmitted the communication was in fact the person alleged. So here we have communications between, um, allegedly between Ms. McCabe and her sister. Before you can consider them, you must find that it's more likely than not that they were the people who sent and received those. If you do not find it's more likely true than not that the person alleged to have created or sent them, um, then you may not consider the electronic communication in deciding your case. Now, when you read or hear about these text messages, you may not consider the statements for their truth. But you may consider them solely for the limited purpose of understanding the state of mind of, uh, here, Ms. McCabe, um, when she sent those messages. Yes. All right. So now that that's what I needed to do. Mr. Jackson, your turn. Thank you, Your Honor. [00:36:16] Speaker 2: Uh, with the court's permission, I would ask the, uh, January 29th text be published. [00:36:21] Speaker 1: Yes. [00:36:22] Speaker 2: Mr. Wolk, is there a way to, there we go. [00:36:27] Speaker 1: Margaret, the witness might need that exhibit. [00:36:30] Speaker 2: Your Honor, may I approach just to retrieve the exhibit? [00:36:33] Speaker 1: Yes. Oh, thank you. You're welcome. Yeah, I was just going to say, could you please enlarge that? [00:36:47] Speaker 2: Any way to make that bigger. And we'll take one bubble at a time. [00:36:51] Speaker 1: Thank you. Ms. McCabe, do you need lights on or are you okay? Oh, I'm okay. All right. Thank you. [00:36:56] Speaker 2: Ms. McCabe, is this, does this appear to be, uh, a representative, uh, copy of this? Um, copy of what you're looking at? It's just been marked for, uh, for evidence. [00:37:07] Speaker 3: Yes, it does. [00:37:08] Speaker 2: Starting at that top text, which is the green bubble here. Um, can you see at the very top where it says from there's a redaction? Yes. The last four digits of that phone number. Do you recognize that? Yes. Is that your phone number? Yes. Do you see just beneath it? It says two, and there's a line that says Coco. Yes. Is that your sister? Yes, it is. Yes. And if you look down on the bottom right corner of this, uh, exhibit, do you see a time and date stamp? [00:37:40] Speaker 3: Yes, I do. [00:37:41] Speaker 2: What is that time and date? [00:37:43] Speaker 3: It's 1:29:22 at 7:54. [00:37:47] Speaker 2: Is that 7:54 PM? Yes. [00:37:50] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:37:51] Speaker 2: Uh, can you read for the jurors what you texted to your sister at 7:54? Sure. Carrie talked to the cops and kept it simple. [00:37:57] Speaker 3: Who's Carrie? Carrie Roberts. [00:37:59] Speaker 2: And this is a text that you sent about Ms. Roberts's interview with the police? Yes, it is. If Mr. Wolk, can we pull up the next text, please? Do you see the response in the blue bubble? Yes, I do. Who's responding to whom? [00:38:25] Speaker 3: I'm responding to my sister, Nicole. [00:38:28] Speaker 2: Can you please, uh, tell us the time and we know it's the same date. What time is that? [00:38:32] Speaker 3: That would be 7:50. I'm sorry. 7:56. Or 58. Sorry. I'm not sure if that's an 8 or a 6. I may have misheard you. The blue bubble is from whom? [00:38:45] Speaker ?: It's from my sister, Nicole. To whom? To me. Okay. I may have misheard you. [00:38:52] Speaker 2: I may have misheard you. The blue bubble is from whom? [00:38:58] Speaker 3: It's from my sister, Nicole. To whom? To me. [00:39:03] Speaker 2: Okay. I may have misheard you. I thought you said the reverse. I want to make sure we're very clear. The blue bubble is from Nicole. The green bubbles are from you. [00:39:11] Speaker 3: Uh, yes. Correct. [00:39:13] Speaker 2: Got it. And this text says, I'm sorry, read that for me one more time. [00:39:16] Speaker 3: Sure. Okay. Try and get some sleep. Talk tomorrow. [00:39:20] Speaker 2: Next text, please. What's the time of this text? [00:39:29] Speaker 3: 7:57. [00:39:32] Speaker 2: This is from you to Coco to Nicole? [00:39:36] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:39:37] Speaker 2: What does that text say? [00:39:39] Speaker 3: Any update. [00:39:40] Speaker 2: What did you mean by any update? [00:39:42] Speaker 3: I meant had she heard anything or learned anything new. Okay. [00:39:46] Speaker ?: Next text, please. [00:39:48] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Do you see a response from your sister to you? Yes. [00:39:59] Speaker 3: What does that say? [00:40:00] Speaker 2: We'll get more info tomorrow. [00:40:02] Speaker 3: Don't want to text about it. Next text, please. [00:40:05] Speaker ?: Next text, please. [00:40:05] Speaker 2: Is this a text from you to your sister Nicole? [00:40:15] Speaker 3: Yes, it is. [00:40:17] Speaker 2: What does that say? [00:40:18] Speaker 3: Right. Next text, please. What is the date and time of this text? It is 1:29 in 2022 at 8:01 PM. [00:40:35] Speaker 2: And this is in response to the text that you just read from you to your sister. Yes. And this is now a text from your sister back to you, correct? Correct. What does this text say? Okay. [00:40:46] Speaker 3: Text me in AM or if you hear anything later. Thank you. [00:40:51] Speaker 2: We can bring the lights up for just a moment. One of the texts, the third from the bottom text on the second page, in other words, the top text on the page, was from your sister to you. We'll get more info, T-O-M-M, correct? Yes. Don't want to text about it, correct? Yes. T-O-M-M means tomorrow? [00:41:21] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:41:22] Speaker 2: This was January 29th, 2022, correct? Yes. Tomorrow would have been January 30th, 2022. Yes. Is that right? Yes. Your Honor, I'm holding another document. This is a multi-page document. Eight pages in total length. There's a page on the bottom. zero, two, one, or eight. You got a call. Thank you. May I approach the witness? [00:41:53] Speaker 1: Yes. [00:41:54] Speaker 2: Thank you. Can you please take a look at that document, flip through it, and let me know when you're finished. [00:41:58] Speaker 1: This is the document we discussed at sidebar. [00:42:00] Speaker 2: It is, Your Honor. [00:42:30] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:44:00] Speaker 2: May I approach, Your Honor? Yes. Thank you. May I stand up at the witness end for just a second? [00:44:19] Speaker 1: Thank you. You don't have a separate copy for Ms. McCabe? [00:44:23] Speaker 2: I do. I'm going to hand you this one and ask that this be Mark. Okay. Just a couple of foundational questions. Ms. McCabe, do you recognize what was depicted in these documents? Yes. Does this appear to be a group chat between and among yourself, Nicole Albert, Chris Albert, and Matt McCabe? [00:44:38] Speaker 3: I don't believe Chris Albert's on that. [00:44:40] Speaker 2: I'm sorry. My mistake. Brian Albert. Yeah, Brian. Sorry. So the four of you? Yes. Okay. And does this appear to be a group chat that was engaged between and among y'all on February 1st, starting, I'm going to try to bookend it, starting at about noon, ending at about 5 or 5.30 that evening. [00:44:55] Speaker 3: I didn't look, but I'll take your word for it. [00:45:00] Speaker 2: You're just looking at the first one or two? Oh, yeah. February 1st. Yeah. The top one has nothing to do with this. [00:45:05] Speaker 3: Okay. Yeah. [00:45:07] Speaker 2: And then the last one, same date, around 5.30. Yes. May I approach? Yes. [00:45:12] Speaker 5: How does this be marked? [00:45:14] Speaker 1: All right. Say for identification or in evidence. In evidence. Same objection, Mr. Byrne? Please. [00:45:20] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:45:21] Speaker 1: Yes, that can come into all things. I think 48. [00:45:25] Speaker 3: Oh, can I? [00:45:33] Speaker 1: And jurors, the same instruction regarding the electronic communications and the same instruction regarding this is not to be used for the truth of what's in there, but simply as opposed to the truth of what's in there. [00:45:50] Speaker 2: With the court's permission to publish, please. Yes. If we could start at the second text down. Ms. Will, can you make that a little bigger? I apologize. Thank you. Do you recognize what's depicted both on the screen and in your hand? Yes. Does it appear to be the same thing? Yes. Okay. Taking a look at that first text, who is that from and who is it to? [00:46:20] Speaker 3: Okay. All right. It's from Brian Albert, and it's to myself, my sister, Nicole, and Matt McCabe, my husband. [00:46:32] Speaker 2: If you can orient us, please, and I won't do this with every single text, but orient us for the first text. What date and time is this text? [00:46:39] Speaker 3: This is February 1st at 1250. [00:46:43] Speaker 2: So this is about three days after the event in question? [00:46:46] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:46:47] Speaker 2: 1250 noon? [00:46:48] Speaker 3: Noon, yes. [00:46:49] Speaker 2: Just before 1 p.m.? Yes. What does that text say? [00:46:53] Speaker 3: Julie said Channel 4 is in DNA. [00:46:56] Speaker 2: And that's from whom? Brian. So Brian Albert is, explain what that text means. [00:47:04] Speaker 3: So Brian Albert is telling us that Channel, that Julie told him Channel 4 is in DNA. [00:47:10] Speaker 2: Who's Julie? [00:47:11] Speaker 3: I'm sorry, Julie Albert. [00:47:13] Speaker 2: Thank you. Let's go to the next text. [00:47:21] Speaker 5: Is this in response to the texting you just read? [00:47:25] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:47:30] Speaker 2: The prior text mentioned Channel 4 and D&E. What is D&E? [00:47:35] Speaker 3: D&E is a sub shop that is owned by Chris Albert. [00:47:39] Speaker 2: Is that in Canton? [00:47:40] Speaker 3: Oh, sorry. Yes, it's in Canton. [00:47:42] Speaker 2: On the main street of Canton? Yes. Directly next door to what? [00:47:47] Speaker 3: Waterfall. [00:47:49] Speaker 2: Across the street from Waterfall? [00:47:50] Speaker 3: Oh, sorry. C.F. McCarthy's. Yeah. Thank you. [00:47:52] Speaker 2: Across the street from Waterfall, directly adjoining, they have an adjoining wall to C.F. McCarthy's, correct? Yes. And D, is it D&E or D&E? [00:48:03] Speaker 3: D&E. [00:48:06] Speaker 2: D&E. Okay. That's just the name of the pizza sub shop. [00:48:09] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:48:10] Speaker 2: All right. Thank you for that context. Ms. McCabe, can you read what this text says, who it's from and who it's to? [00:48:19] Speaker 3: This is from Matt McCabe to myself, my sister, Nicole, and Brian. [00:48:25] Speaker 2: Can you read it for us, please? Sure. [00:48:27] Speaker 3: Eating, I assume. Ask Chris to ask some questions. Tell them the guy never went into the house. [00:48:36] Speaker 2: What does tell them the guy never went into the house mean to you? How did you take that? [00:48:42] Speaker 3: I took that as John never came in the house. [00:48:46] Speaker 2: Who's the guy? [00:48:47] Speaker 3: John. [00:48:48] Speaker 2: John O'Keefe. Yes. And the beginning of that sentence is, tell them that the guy never came in the house, correct? Yes. And the sentence before that is, ask Chris to ask some questions, correct? Yes. So this is Matt McCabe directing that Chris ask questions of Channel 4, correct? [00:49:14] Speaker 3: I wouldn't say directing. [00:49:16] Speaker 2: Whatever word you want to use. [00:49:18] Speaker 3: No, I'm saying that Matt. Suggesting. I think we're all looking to find out what happened. So Matt was like, ask some questions. What do they know? [00:49:25] Speaker 2: And also indicating that Chris should tell them the guy never came in the house, correct? [00:49:32] Speaker 3: John never came in the house, correct? [00:49:34] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:49:34] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Can you warrant this? Who is this text from and who is it to? [00:49:47] Speaker 3: Okay. This text is from Brian to myself, to Nicole, and to Matt. Brian who? Sorry, Brian Albert. [00:49:57] Speaker 2: And this is in response to the text above that you just read, correct? [00:50:02] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:50:02] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:50:02] Speaker 2: Where Matt McCabe said, tell Chris to find out, get an update or something and tell them that the guy never came in the house. Yes. This is in response to that text. [00:50:14] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:50:14] Speaker 2: And what does Brian Albert respond? [00:50:17] Speaker 3: Exactly. [00:50:18] Speaker 2: One word, correct? [00:50:19] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:50:20] Speaker 2: Next text, please. This is a green box. So I presume this is you? [00:50:28] Speaker 3: Yes, it is. [00:50:29] Speaker 2: And this is to whom? [00:50:31] Speaker 3: To Nicole, to Brian, to Matt. [00:50:33] Speaker 2: And what does your text read? [00:50:36] Speaker 3: It means, oh my God. [00:50:38] Speaker 2: It's O-N-G, but it meant to be O-M-G, correct? Yes. [00:50:42] Speaker 3: Yeah, I do a lot of errors. [00:50:44] Speaker 2: Which stands for, oh my God. [00:50:46] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:50:47] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Who is this from and who is it to? [00:50:56] Speaker 3: So this is from my sister Nicole to myself to Brian and to Matt. [00:51:03] Speaker 2: And what does that text read? [00:51:05] Speaker 3: It says, I assume it's just to eat, but Brian, if she is there, ask her what the deal is. [00:51:13] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Before I ask you about this text, the last text, that was from whom one more time? [00:51:28] Speaker 3: My sister Nicole. [00:51:30] Speaker 2: It was from your sister Nicole? [00:51:32] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:51:33] Speaker 2: And she mentions a she, a pronoun she. [00:51:36] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:51:37] Speaker 2: Is that referring to Julie Albert? [00:51:40] Speaker 3: To be honest, I don't know who she's referring to. [00:51:43] Speaker 2: Well, remember the first text started, or did the first text start? With someone reporting that Julie said that Channel 4 was in D&E? [00:51:56] Speaker 3: Yes, it did. [00:51:56] Speaker 2: So would this, would that prior text mean get Julie Albert to get some updates on what's going on? Let's go back to that last text one more time. Do you see where it reads, if she's there, does that mean if Julie is at D&E, hence she just reported that Channel 4 is there? [00:52:29] Speaker 3: I'm not, I'm truly not sure if, who she's referring to as the she. [00:52:34] Speaker 2: Okay, fair enough. Let's go to the next text, please. Mr. Wilk, I think you've missed one. The one above it? Who's this text from and who's it to? [00:52:56] Speaker 3: This text is from myself, and it is to my sister Nicole, to Brian, and to Matt. And what does this read? This says, to ask if we heard if she is in a mental hospital. [00:53:09] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Who's this from and who's it to? [00:53:17] Speaker 3: This is from me, to my sister Nicole, to Brian, and to Matt. [00:53:21] Speaker 2: What's the time on this text? [00:53:26] Speaker 3: 2.55. [00:53:27] Speaker 2: And what does it read? [00:53:29] Speaker 3: Carrie is here, going over a timeline. [00:53:33] Speaker 2: Who's the Carrie referring to? [00:53:34] Speaker 3: Carrie Roberts. [00:53:35] Speaker 2: What is here? [00:53:37] Speaker 3: I would assume here would mean my house. [00:53:40] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Who's this from and who's it to? [00:53:49] Speaker 3: This is from Brian, to me, to Nicole, to Matt. [00:53:54] Speaker 2: And what does this text read? [00:53:55] Speaker 3: I did hear that. [00:53:58] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Who's this text from and who's it to? [00:54:10] Speaker 3: This text is from me, to my sister Nicole, to Brian, to Matt. [00:54:14] Speaker 2: What does it read? [00:54:16] Speaker 3: And we handed the phone, to Carrie. [00:54:21] Speaker 2: Who's Carrie? [00:54:22] Speaker 3: Carrie Roberts. [00:54:23] Speaker 2: What phone are you referring to? [00:54:25] Speaker 3: Mine. [00:54:27] Speaker 2: Who's on the other end of that phone? [00:54:30] Speaker 3: On February 1st, I believe it could have been Michael Proctor. [00:54:33] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Who is this from and who's this from and who's it to? [00:54:43] Speaker 3: This is from me, to Nicole, to Brian, to Matt. [00:54:47] Speaker 2: What does it read? [00:54:48] Speaker 3: She is telling him everything. [00:54:51] Speaker 2: Everything is in all caps with an exclamation point, correct? [00:54:54] Speaker 3: Yes, it is. [00:54:54] Speaker 2: What's the time stamp on this, Ms. McCabe? [00:54:57] Speaker 3: 255. [00:55:00] Speaker 2: Who's the him that you're referring to in this text? [00:55:04] Speaker 3: I believe it was Michael Proctor. [00:55:06] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Who is this from and who is it to? [00:55:17] Speaker 3: This is from me, to Nicole, to Brian, to Matt. [00:55:22] Speaker 2: What's the time stamp on this text? [00:55:26] Speaker 3: 255. [00:55:27] Speaker 2: Same minute that you sent the last text? Yes. She's telling him everything? Yes. And then you follow up with what? [00:55:33] Speaker 3: All the stuff. [00:55:35] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Who's this responsive text from? [00:55:45] Speaker 3: This is from Matt, to myself, Nicole, and Brian. [00:55:49] Speaker 2: And what's the time stamp on this? [00:55:53] Speaker 3: 435. [00:55:54] Speaker 2: What does this read? [00:55:56] Speaker 3: Yep. If she pleads out, it will end. If she fights it, it will be an episode. [00:56:02] Speaker 2: Who's she? [00:56:04] Speaker 3: I'm assuming that would be Ms. Reed. [00:56:06] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Who's this from and who's it to? [00:56:15] Speaker 3: This is from Nicole, to me, to Matt, and to Brian. [00:56:19] Speaker 2: And what does this read? [00:56:21] Speaker 3: She liked the text about. The previous text? Yes. [00:56:26] Speaker 2: Meaning like a thumbs up or a like? [00:56:27] Speaker 3: Yeah, it just says liked. [00:56:29] Speaker 2: The one that reads, yeah, if she pleads, it will end. Mm-hmm. If she fights, it will be an episode. [00:56:34] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:56:35] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Who's this from and who's it to? [00:56:43] Speaker 3: This is from Matt. Oh, sorry. To me, to Nicole, and to Brian. [00:56:48] Speaker 2: And what does this read? [00:56:50] Speaker 3: Brian, sitting separate. [00:56:53] Speaker 2: Is that a period or a comma? I honestly can't see. Is that a period or a comma between Brian and sitting? Or can you tell? [00:57:02] Speaker 3: I can't tell if it is or it's just like the way it printed out. I'm not sure. [00:57:07] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Who's this from and who's it to? [00:57:17] Speaker 3: Brian, to me, Nicole, and Matt. [00:57:20] Speaker 2: What's the time stamp on this? [00:57:21] Speaker 3: That is 4.55. [00:57:23] Speaker 2: And what does that text read? [00:57:25] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:57:27] Speaker 2: And the next text. This is another green bubble. Who's this from and who's it to? [00:57:35] Speaker 3: This is me, Matt, I'm sorry, me, Nicole, Matt, and Brian. [00:57:42] Speaker 2: And what did you say, what did you write in this text? [00:57:46] Speaker 3: I wrote you listening. [00:57:48] Speaker 2: And what's the time stamp on this? [00:57:49] Speaker 3: That is 5.15. [00:57:51] Speaker 2: I'm sorry, it would be what time? [00:57:54] Speaker 3: Oh, I'm sorry, 5.15. [00:57:56] Speaker 2: And in fact, at 5.15, Ms. Roberts was in your house being personally interviewed by Massachusetts State Police, correct? [00:58:03] Speaker 3: They were there. I'm not sure if this is the exact time, but yes, they did come over. [00:58:11] Speaker 2: Just to be clear and to orient us, there was a phone conversation that you were privy to between Carrie Roberts and Michael Proctor telephonically. [00:58:22] Speaker 3: She was earlier in the day. Yeah, yeah, earlier in the day, he had called me and then Carrie had asked to speak with him. [00:58:28] Speaker 2: And that's the hand is going to follow her? [00:58:30] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:58:30] Speaker 2: And later, a couple of hours later, five-ish or so, she was still at your house. Michael Proctor came over and interviewed her at your home. [00:58:38] Speaker 3: No. I'm sorry. [00:58:38] Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Now she's taking release. [00:58:41] Speaker 3: Came over and spoke to myself, her, and Matt. [00:58:46] Speaker 2: And you wrote, you listening to the group, correct? [00:58:49] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:58:50] Speaker 2: Who was that specifically directed to? [00:58:52] Speaker 3: I honestly don't know. [00:58:55] Speaker 2: Was there anybody else in the house during her interview other than you and the troopers? [00:59:00] Speaker 3: My husband, Matt, my daughter, her friend, my other daughter. [00:59:05] Speaker 2: So of the people on this text chain, the only person that would have been in the house that could have conceivably, quote, unquote, listened would be Matt. Okay. Yes. Okay. Next text, please. Who is this from and who is it to? [00:59:23] Speaker 3: It's from me to Matt, Nicole, and Brian. [00:59:27] Speaker 2: And what does it read? [00:59:29] Speaker 3: Cops here again. [00:59:31] Speaker 2: You were reporting to the others on this text stream that the police had arrived at your house. They were in your house with you and Carrie that you just described, correct? [00:59:39] Speaker 3: Yes. I was just telling them that they were here again. [00:59:42] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Who is this from and who is it to? [00:59:53] Speaker 3: This is from my sister. Sorry, Nicole. To myself, Brian, and Matt. And Nicole says, call us after. [01:00:01] Speaker 2: And what time was this? [01:00:02] Speaker 3: This was 5.23. [01:00:06] Speaker 2: Did you take this to mean that she wanted you to call the group after Carrie Roberts' interview and update them about that interview? [01:00:15] Speaker 3: I took it as that she just wanted, yeah, to call and see what the cops said and if there was any update, any information. [01:00:23] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Who is this from and who is it to? [01:00:32] Speaker 3: This is from Matt, and it's to myself, Nicole, and Brian. [01:00:37] Speaker 2: What time is this? [01:00:39] Speaker 3: This is at 5.31. [01:00:42] Speaker 2: And at 5.31, what does Mr. McCabe write to the group? [01:00:46] Speaker 3: This girl could write a book nonstop. [01:00:51] Speaker 2: Was that in reference to Carrie Roberts having her interview with the Massachusetts State Police? Yes, it was. And this girl is Carrie, correct? Yes. Next text, please. Who is this from and who is it to? [01:01:09] Speaker 3: This is from me to Nicole, Brian, and Matt. [01:01:13] Speaker 2: What time is this text? [01:01:14] Speaker 3: 5.32. [01:01:15] Speaker 2: And what do you write to the group? I love it. And this is in direct response to Matt McCabe's, your husband's text about Carrie Roberts could write a book, correct? [01:01:25] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:01:26] Speaker 2: Suggesting that both you and Mr. McCabe were listening to her interview, correct? [01:01:30] Speaker 3: We could hear different parts of it, correct? [01:01:32] Speaker 2: Next text, please. And who is this from and who is it to? [01:01:42] Speaker 3: This is from me to Nicole to Brian to Matt. [01:01:45] Speaker 2: And what did you write? [01:01:46] Speaker 3: I wrote, she is telling them everything. [01:01:52] Speaker 2: Similar to the text that we earlier saw that was in all caps when you indicated she's telling them everything, correct? Yes. On the phone. That was in reference to what she was saying on the phone. Yes. This is in reference to the live interview, correct? Yes. Also indicating that you were listening to and were privy to the content of her conversation with the police. [01:02:13] Speaker 3: I could hear bits and pieces of it, yes. [01:02:16] Speaker 2: Enough to say that she's telling them everything. [01:02:19] Speaker 3: When I used the word everything, it was, I meant it in, not only was she telling them what had happened, but she was telling them opinions, but she was also telling them opinions and different things. Okay. [01:02:34] Speaker 2: So you could hear it that much? [01:02:35] Speaker 3: I could hear her saying some opinions. Okay. [01:02:38] Speaker 2: Next text, please. [01:02:45] Speaker 3: This is from my sister Nicole, to myself, to Matt, to Brian. [01:02:51] Speaker 2: And this is in response to, she is telling them everything, correct? [01:02:55] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:02:56] Speaker 2: And the text reads what? [01:02:58] Speaker 3: Good. [01:02:59] Speaker 2: Next text, please. Who's this from and who is it to? [01:03:08] Speaker 3: This is from Matt, to myself, to Nicole, and to Brian. [01:03:12] Speaker 2: And what does it read? [01:03:13] Speaker 3: He says, going to miss the basketball game at this rate. [01:03:17] Speaker 2: You mean Matt says? [01:03:19] Speaker 3: Oh, sorry. Matt says, going to miss the basketball game at this rate. [01:03:24] Speaker 2: Indicating that he was still in the house and still privy to the conversation between Carrie Roberts and the Massachusetts State Police. [01:03:29] Speaker 3: He was waiting for them to talk, but Carrie kept talking, was, as he said, she could write a book. So he felt he was going to miss the game because she just kept talking. [01:03:39] Speaker 2: Next text, please. That may be the end of it. Yeah, it is. Is that the last text on the page? Yes, it is. May I approach on? [01:03:52] Speaker 1: Yes. [01:03:53] Speaker 3: Do you want both of them? Okay. There you go. [01:04:03] Speaker 2: Ms. McCabe. Yes. These text messages were on a private chat, both the one between you and your sister, as well as the group chat, correct? Those are private chats, not open to the public. Correct. You never intended, obviously, for any of those texts to become public, correct? [01:04:20] Speaker 3: I handed my phone over, so I knew all my texts would be seen. [01:04:24] Speaker 2: When you were writing the text, when the group was chatting back and forth or texting back and forth, those were intended to be private texts between and among just the people on the text string, correct? [01:04:35] Speaker 3: I just was texting my family. I wasn't thinking any more of who was going to see it. [01:04:39] Speaker 2: You certainly did not expect, when you were writing those texts, that the defense, Ms. Karen Reed's representatives would ever get a hold of those texts. That was not in your mind, correct? [01:04:49] Speaker 3: Would never have been in my mind, no. [01:04:51] Speaker 2: That is a textbook example, what we've just seen, of witnesses colluding with one another about a subject matter that's under investigation, correct? I move for an instruction. [01:05:02] Speaker 1: All right. Jurors, disregard that comment. Completely disregard that question. [01:05:08] Speaker 2: Your Honor, may we approach? [01:05:09] Speaker 1: Yes. [01:05:17] Speaker 2: May I, Your Honor? Yes. Thank you. In the text that we just saw, you were colluding with other witnesses, percipient witnesses in this case, through those text messages, were you not? [01:05:30] Speaker 3: I was not. [01:05:31] Speaker 2: You were organizing your statements to the police based on what you overheard and what you heard during Carrie Roberts' interview with the Massachusetts State Police, weren't you? [01:05:44] Speaker 3: No, I was not. [01:05:45] Speaker 2: You were reporting back to other percipient witnesses what you heard and saw during other witnesses' statements to the police, to Carrie Roberts, correct? [01:05:56] Speaker 3: I was telling them Carrie was speaking with the police. [01:05:59] Speaker 2: And you told them she's telling them, quote, everything, correct? [01:06:03] Speaker 3: Yes, I told them some of the opinions that she stated. [01:06:06] Speaker 2: And when Mr. McCabe said she could write a book, in other words, she's going on and on, your statement was, I love it, correct? Yes. And you reported that back to other witnesses who were not privy to Ms. Roberts' statements to the police, correct? [01:06:25] Speaker 3: To my sister and to my brother-in-law, yes. [01:06:28] Speaker 2: And then your sister asked for updates when Carrie Roberts was done, correct? [01:06:33] Speaker 3: I don't know if it was in regard to updates when she was done or updates like, did they tell us anything? Is there anything new? We were still all trying to figure out what had happened. [01:06:44] Speaker 2: The four of you were discussing the facts surrounding this case, not only with each other, but discussing interviews, formal police interviews that you heard or overheard with another witness, weren't you? [01:07:00] Speaker 3: I told them some of the things that Carrie Roberts said, yes. [01:07:03] Speaker 2: And you were happy about what she said after you had created this timeline with her, correct? [01:07:11] Speaker 3: The timeline had nothing to do with it. [01:07:14] Speaker 2: But it was certainly chronologically. Her interview with the police was after this timeline had already been created between you and Carrie Roberts. [01:07:23] Speaker 3: Yes, we both put down what had happened so we would remember. [01:07:28] Speaker 5: And then once she was interviewed, you were responding to the rest of the group. She's telling them everything, meaning everything we just crafted in this timeline, right? [01:07:38] Speaker 3: No, I meant she was telling them everything. She was telling her personal opinions about Ms. Reed. [01:07:57] Speaker 2: I want to change gears for a second, Ms. McCabe, and ask you about that visit that you took to Michael Lank's house. May I approach, Your Honor? Yes. I just don't want to keep these at the podium. Thank you, Your Honor. Have you and Ms. Roberts discussed that visit to Michael Lank's house before you testified to it for the first time in May of 2024, about a year ago? Did you all discuss that at all? [01:08:45] Speaker 3: I don't recall. [01:08:47] Speaker 2: You testified under oath in that proceeding that you went, and I want to be very clear about this, that you went from One Meadows, the O'Keefe residence, John O'Keefe's residence, directly to Michael Lank's residence, which is in another neighborhood in the same town, correct? Yes, we went, correct. And you indicated that you were there to drop off one of Carrie's daughters. Is that right? Yes. That's how you testified in May of 2024, about a year ago. Yes. [01:09:20] Speaker 5: May I just move, Your Honor? [01:09:22] Speaker 1: Yes. [01:09:25] Speaker 2: You spoke to Lieutenant Tully about this very same visit on May 10th, 2024, before your actual testimony in that other proceeding a year ago, correct? Yes. All right. And what you all talked about was your visit and your travels over to Sergeant Lank's. By the way, it's Sergeant Michael Lank of Canton PD, correct? Yes. The same Michael Lank that we've talked about. Yes. You talked to Lieutenant Tully about that trip over to Michael Lank's house, correct? Yes. You indicated that in that interview with Lieutenant Tully, that you went over to the Lank residence with Carrie Roberts to pick up her daughter at the residence, correct? Not to drop her off. Not to drop her off, but to pick her up. [01:10:27] Speaker 3: She was with us at Meadows, so we dropped her off. [01:10:30] Speaker 2: Right. I know that's what your testimony was a couple days ago. I'm asking, when you talked to Lieutenant Tully on May 10th, 2024, before your testimony last year, did you tell Lieutenant Tully we were actually there to pick up her daughter? That's why we went to Michael Lank's house. That's why you went to Michael Lank's house. [01:10:49] Speaker 3: I went to Michael Lank's house to drop her daughter off. [01:10:52] Speaker 2: What did you tell Lieutenant Tully? [01:10:53] Speaker 3: That I went to drop her off. [01:10:55] Speaker 2: So you didn't say pick her up to him? [01:10:57] Speaker 3: I don't believe so, no. [01:10:58] Speaker 2: So if he said that, that would be another example of an incorrect report? [01:11:02] Speaker 3: Sustained. [01:11:05] Speaker 2: Do you remember exactly what it was that you told him? [01:11:10] Speaker 3: I know that Lexi was with us at Meadows Ave, and we dropped her off at Mike Lank's. So if he mixed up, pick up, and drop off, that could have happened. But we had Lexi with us, and we dropped her off there. Okay. [01:11:22] Speaker 6: So you believe that may have been his mixed up, not yours? [01:11:26] Speaker 1: Sustained. [01:11:27] Speaker 2: Is that? I'm sorry. Do you remember exactly what it was that you told Lieutenant Tully during that interview? [01:11:35] Speaker 3: I know. I said that we dropped her off. [01:11:37] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:11:46] Speaker 2: It was 11 days later that you actually testified, correct? [01:11:52] Speaker 3: 11 days later from? [01:11:53] Speaker 2: After the interview, about 10, 11 days after the interview with Lieutenant Tully that you actually testified in court in a proceeding about this issue. [01:12:04] Speaker 3: Ben, I don't know the exact dates of when I testified. [01:12:07] Speaker 2: If you testified, say, May 21st versus May 10th, it's about 11 days. Yeah. All right. When you testified in that other proceeding, you did testify that you had dropped off Carrie Roberts' daughter, not picked her daughter up. Is that right? [01:12:25] Speaker 3: I know I dropped her off, yes. [01:12:27] Speaker 2: Did you also talk to Carrie Roberts about her testimony and what she was going to say about dropping off or picking up her daughter? [01:12:35] Speaker 3: No. Okay. [01:12:36] Speaker 2: You never talked to her about it before you testified or before she testified last year? [01:12:41] Speaker 3: We both know what happened, so I don't... [01:12:43] Speaker 2: I'm just asking if you had a discussion. That's all I'm asking. [01:12:45] Speaker 3: I have no idea if we discussed that. [01:12:46] Speaker 2: So you might have? [01:12:48] Speaker 3: I have no idea. [01:12:50] Speaker 2: And in the last year, let's clock it around all the way to now, you've probably discussed it additionally with it, correct? [01:12:56] Speaker 3: Probably not that detailed, no. [01:12:59] Speaker 2: Now, you also indicated... By the way, you were... The reason that this subject matter came up with Lieutenant Tully is you were confronted with certain location data records indicating that you were at Michael Lank's house for a period of time, correct? [01:13:18] Speaker 1: Sustained. Ask it differently. [01:13:20] Speaker 2: Were you provided any records and asked about records that showed that you were at Michael Lank's house on January 30th, 2022? [01:13:30] Speaker 3: I was asked if I had gone to Michael Lank's house, and I had, to be honest, I had completely forgotten because those days were just a complete blur. But then I remembered that after we left Meadows Ave, we did drop Lexi... I'm sorry, her daughter off at Michael Lank's. [01:13:50] Speaker 2: All right, do you recall ever seeing a document, seeing something that indicated that you were actually a piece of paper, a document, a record, anything indicating that you were seen at Michael Lank's house through GPS location data forms? [01:14:09] Speaker 3: Did I ever see a record of that? Correct. Did Lieutenant show... No, he didn't show me a record. [01:14:14] Speaker 2: He just asked you about it. [01:14:15] Speaker 3: He just asked me. [01:14:15] Speaker 2: Did he tell you during that course of that interview that he had been provided with GPS data records indicating that you went to Michael Lank's house? [01:14:24] Speaker 3: I don't remember the specifics of what he asked, but I know that he did ask me if I had been there. [01:14:31] Speaker 2: Did he tell you that he had received those GPS data records from the defense? Sustained. Did he tell you anything about receiving any documents from the defense that prompted the question where you were on January 3rd? [01:14:46] Speaker 3: I don't recall. [01:14:56] Speaker 2: Before your... Before that interview on May 10th with Lieutenant Tully, this is preceding your testimony last year. [01:15:06] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:15:06] Speaker 2: Had you ever reported that you went to Michael Lank's house, Sergeant Lank's house on January 30th to anybody? [01:15:13] Speaker 3: No. To be honest, I completely forgot about it. [01:15:22] Speaker 2: You indicated that during that visit, you sat outside in a car, in Carrie's car, correct? Yes. Basically for the entire visit. Is that right? Yes. You indicated that you did not go in the house except to use the restroom possibly, correct? [01:15:43] Speaker 3: I have a faint memory that I ran in to use the bathroom. [01:15:48] Speaker 2: You indicated that you did not see Sergeant Lank at his home, correct? [01:15:52] Speaker 3: I don't believe I did, no. [01:15:53] Speaker 2: What time of night was this? [01:15:58] Speaker 3: I don't know. We had left. We had been at Meadows for a while, and then we left, dropped Flexi off, and then I went home. Yeah, I don't know what time. Maybe afternoon. I'm not sure. I'm sorry. [01:16:22] Speaker 2: Your Honor, I have a 10-page document that I'd like to have marked as identification with the court's permission. [01:16:33] Speaker 1: Sure. Show Mr. Brennan on your way up. Thank you. [01:16:52] Speaker 6: No problem with that. Thank you. [01:17:07] Speaker 2: Good? Okay. [01:17:10] Speaker 5: May I approach? [01:17:12] Speaker 3: Yes. Thank you. [01:17:20] Speaker 2: Do you recognize the document? [01:17:23] Speaker 1: So has it been marked yet? [01:17:25] Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I ask that it be marked for identification at this point, just only for identification. Sorry. [01:17:30] Speaker 1: So, Madam Court reporter will mark it and give it back. Okay. [01:17:33] Speaker 2: Thank you. [01:17:34] Speaker 1: Give it back for identification. Thank you. [01:17:37] Speaker 2: Go ahead, Mr. Jackson. Thank you, Your Honor. Once you get the document back, I'll ask you a couple of quick questions about it. Okay. Thank you. [01:17:54] Speaker ?: Sorry, Gracie. [01:17:56] Speaker 2: You have the document in front of you? Yes. Let's take a look at the first page of that document, just to orient yourself. Do you see that that appears to be a map, generally? [01:18:05] Speaker 1: All right. So, I'm just going to ask you to take a look at the document and don't describe it. [01:18:10] Speaker 2: Sure. Take a look at the first page and tell me if you recognize anything on that page. [01:18:15] Speaker 1: I do, yes. [01:18:16] Speaker 2: What do you recognize, generally, about that document? Yeah. [01:18:19] Speaker 1: I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. May I have that, please? Sure. Thank you. Sure. [01:18:46] Speaker ?: I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. I'll see you, counsel, at Cyber. 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Taking a look at that first page, do you recognize a location that's pinpointed on that page? I do. Okay. Without telling me the address, what do you recognize that as being? [01:22:07] Speaker 3: My house. [01:22:08] Speaker 2: Okay. And do you see in the call-out box in the middle of the page? Yes. Do you see a date and time? Yes. Yes. What is the date and time? [01:22:21] Speaker 3: It is January 30th at 12:13. [01:22:24] Speaker 2: Take a look at page two on what's been marked for identification. [01:22:34] Speaker 3: Okay. [01:22:35] Speaker 2: Do you see a location pinpointed on that page? I do, yes. What do you recognize that location as being? [01:22:45] Speaker 3: John O'Keefe's home. [01:22:47] Speaker 2: Is that what we've talked about on Meadows? Yes, Meadows. Do you see a time and date for that location? [01:22:53] Speaker 3: Yes, 1:30, 2022 at 12:19. [01:22:58] Speaker 2: At 12:19 PM? Yes. Okay. Thank you. If you could turn to page, pardon me, four, skip over page three and just go straight to page four. Mm-hmm. Do you recognize something that's been pinpointed on that map as well? [01:23:17] Speaker ?: Yes. [01:23:18] Speaker 3: What is that? [01:23:19] Speaker 2: Again, don't give me the full address. What is that location that's pinpointed? That is my house. [01:23:24] Speaker 3: Okay. [01:23:25] Speaker 2: And do you see a date and time for that location? [01:23:27] Speaker 3: Yes, that's 1:30 at 5:21. [01:23:30] Speaker 2: When you say 1:30, January 30th? [01:23:33] Speaker 3: Sorry, January 30th, 2022 at 5:21. [01:23:37] Speaker 2: Okay. Looking at page five, do you see a location pinpointed on that map as well? Yes, I do. And what's the date and time of that location? [01:23:50] Speaker 3: That is also 1:30, 2022, and that is at 5:28. [01:23:55] Speaker 2: Got it. Taking a look at page six, do you see a location pinpointed on that map? Yes. What is that, again, what is that location? [01:24:07] Speaker 3: That is 1:30, 2022. [01:24:12] Speaker 2: The location, the address? [01:24:13] Speaker 3: Oh, I'm sorry. That is Fairview. [01:24:17] Speaker 2: Appeared to be 34 Fairview? Yes. And what's the date and time? [01:24:21] Speaker 3: 5:36. [01:24:24] Speaker 2: Taking a look at page seven. Do you see anything located on that, a pinpoint location on that page? Yes. What's the date? I'm sorry, what is that location? That's Fairview again. [01:24:37] Speaker 3: And what's the date and time? That is 1:30, 2022 at 5:40. So just to be clear, the page before was 5:36, and this page is 5:40? [01:24:45] Speaker 2: Yes. Okay. Take a look at page eight. Do you see what's pinpointed on that page? [01:25:01] Speaker ?: Yes. [01:25:02] Speaker 3: What is that location without giving me the address? [01:25:03] Speaker 2: What is that location without giving me the address? [01:25:06] Speaker 3: I believe that's Mike Links. [01:25:08] Speaker 2: What's the date and time? [01:25:10] Speaker 3: 1:30, 2022. [01:25:13] Speaker 2: January 30th, 2022. Yes. And the time, please? [01:25:17] Speaker 3: 5:43. [01:25:18] Speaker ?: You're familiar with Canton, obviously. [01:25:18] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:25:19] Speaker ?: Much more than we are. Yes. [01:25:21] Speaker 2: Is driving time from 34 Fairview to Mike Links' house consistent with about three or four minutes? [01:25:34] Speaker 3: It could be with, like, they have multiple stop signs. Okay. And due to the weather. Right. [01:25:40] Speaker 2: Taking a look at page nine. Yes. Do you see another pinpointed address? Yes. [01:25:48] Speaker ?: I believe it's the same one. Okay. The same address on? [01:25:51] Speaker 3: As Mike Link. Okay. And what's the time? [01:25:54] Speaker 2: What's the date? 1:30, 2022. [01:25:56] Speaker 3: And that is 6:28. And 6:28 is about 45 minutes after 5:43. [01:25:58] Speaker 2: Give or take. Correct? Yeah. [01:26:01] Speaker 3: Finally, the last page, page 10. [01:26:02] Speaker ?: Do you see yet another pinpointed address? [01:26:02] Speaker 3: I do, yes. Is that your address? Yes, it is. Okay. [01:26:06] Speaker ?: And what's the date and time of that pinpoint? [01:26:07] Speaker 2: 1:30, 2022. And that is 6:28. And 6:28 is about 45 minutes after 5:43. Give or take. [01:26:13] Speaker 3: Correct? [01:26:14] Speaker ?: Yes. [01:26:15] Speaker 2: Finally, the last page, page 10. Do you see yet another pinpointed address? I do, yes. [01:26:24] Speaker 3: Is that your address? [01:26:25] Speaker 2: Yes, it is. [01:26:26] Speaker 3: Okay. [01:26:27] Speaker 2: And what's the date and time of that pinpoint? [01:26:30] Speaker 3: That is 1:30, 2022 as well. And that is at 6:34. [01:26:36] Speaker 2: And is, would it be safe to say that your address from Mike Lang's address may be a six or seven minute drive? Yeah, depending. [01:26:48] Speaker 3: Yeah, depending. [01:26:49] Speaker ?: Mm-hmm. [01:26:49] Speaker 2: We were talking about what happened when you were at Mike Lang's that evening. By the way, does any of that refresh your recollection about the time that you went to Mike Lang's house? Yes. [01:27:17] Speaker 3: I knew it was after Meadows and later in the day. Yes. [01:27:22] Speaker 2: Closer to 5:45, 6:30, correct? Yes. yes this is in january in boston is that right the greater boston area yes gets dark really early yes it was a blizzard the night before yes safe to say that it was dark out yeah safe to say it was cold out yes the blizzard was still brewing correct i think it had stopped snowing by then um still freezing cold believe so and your testimony is that you sat outside in a car with carrie roberts and michael length's wife for 45 minutes yes you actually and i'm assuming the car was running yes he had to be on full blast yes you're dressed in winter gear yes because it's freezing out correct correct you actually got out of the car and went into the house to go to the restroom at one point i have a faint memory i think i did yes and the three of you didn't just decide let's just go in the house no we didn't you actually came out of the restroom came out of the nice warm house and fought the cold and got back in the car [01:28:38] Speaker 3: according to you correct yes i went back in the car because carrie was going to bring me home [01:28:45] Speaker 2: you stated on direct examination that and you've stated again today that you stopped by michael length's house sergeant length's house directly from the o'keefe residence as sort of a my word not yours sort of a pit stop to drop off carrie roberts daughter correct correct in point of fact you actually drove from your personal residence to michael length's house as a [01:29:12] Speaker 3: destination didn't you i don't i don't remember that this is what this piece of paper says i remember [01:29:21] Speaker 2: just leaving meadows and dropping off lexi in point of fact it wasn't an errand it wasn't to drop anybody it was a destination that you went to from your house to sergeant lank's house on january 30th 2022 [01:29:37] Speaker 3: wasn't it no we went to drop off lexi was lexi at your house she was with us at meadows and then we went to drop her off right she was never with you at your house was she i don't remember going to my house [01:29:51] Speaker 2: so if she wasn't with you at your house there would be no reason to drop the child off from your house [01:29:58] Speaker 3: lexi was in the car with us and we dropped her off at michael length that's why we went to officer [01:30:03] Speaker 5: length's house yes and in point of fact we actually went from your house and did make a big stop [01:30:10] Speaker 3: to 34th area before you went to michael length's house we drove by and um stopped yes slowly stopped yes no i never went in the house i think carrie and i just went by to like take a look at it we were still trying to figure everything out i have to look at the report but yeah we were sitting in the car kind of just like oh my god looking didn't go in the house we didn't go in the house nobody came [01:30:44] Speaker 2: outside to talk to you no you didn't speak to nicole i don't believe so possible like i said carrie and i [01:30:54] Speaker 3: just kind of drove by and we're looking at the area and that's before you went to michael length's house [01:30:59] Speaker 2: correct that was on the way to michael length's so in point of fact you didn't go directly from one [01:31:06] Speaker 3: meadows to michael length's house i thought i had i truly thought i had my memory is not this isn't refreshing my memory i do not remember going by my house before michael length's [01:31:21] Speaker 2: do you remember testifying a year ago that well let me ask it this way do you remember denying a year ago that you ever even stopped by 34 farion i don't remember that now would it refresh your recollection to take a look at your prior testimony [01:31:43] Speaker 3: sure [01:31:56] Speaker 6: take a look at that page that's top may i yes thank you thank you [01:32:27] Speaker 2: on may 21st of last year you were asked about this very thing in a prior proceeding correct correct [01:32:35] Speaker 3: at that time you denied altogether ever going by 34 fairview correct no i believe the paper says i never stopped by but we drove by and now you're saying that you did stop stopping by and driving by meant something different to me stopping by i look at is like then you pop in the house driving by is you just drive drive by so we just drove by slowly and and kind of looked at the [01:33:02] Speaker 2: scene and miss mccabe i think you just said that you may be in circle with nicole i didn't speak with [01:33:09] Speaker 3: nicole no we were in the car carrie and i and lexi you were denying that you ever spoke with nicole or [01:33:16] Speaker 2: any other member of the albert family or anybody at 34 fairview did you sit here today as they sit [01:33:21] Speaker 3: here today i'm telling you that we we slowly drove by [01:33:28] Speaker 2: so again last question on this point you did not you now admit drive from one meadows over to 34 i'm sorry over to michael lang's house directly to drop off carrie's daughter [01:33:45] Speaker 3: my memory is we did drive from one meadows i know what this piece of paper says i'm telling you that just my memory is we left meadows and went down fairview and then went to michael lang's but this paper is saying we stopped at my house first i don't remember that but again i was in shock so a lot of things from that day are foggy certain things certain details i may have forgotten and your all of your [01:34:13] Speaker 2: testimony over the last several days is based on that memory that you just described to these jurors [01:34:19] Speaker 3: correct there are certain things i'll never forget correct [01:34:31] Speaker 2: i'm going to ask you a couple of questions you may depending upon your answer you may i'm sorry depending upon what you just answered you may or may not remember well let's see okay isn't it true that at 12 13 p.m you left 12 country lane on january 30th 2022 yes according to this yes isn't it true that at 12 19 you arrived at one meadows the o'keefe residence [01:35:00] Speaker 3: according to the doctor oh my memory i don't remember exact times thank you isn't it true [01:35:13] Speaker 2: miss mccade that at 5 12 p.m you left one meadows which is the o'keefe residence 5 12 in the evening that i i don't remember the times that i left isn't it true that at 5 21 you arrived back at your address on country lane i do not remember that isn't it true that at 5 28 seven minutes later you actually left your address on country lane again i don't remember going by my house isn't it true that at 5 36 you arrived at 34 fairview and stayed for at least four minutes i know we drove by isn't it true that at 5 40 but they're just thereafter you left 34 fairview i know we left and went to mike lanks and isn't it true at 5 43 you arrived on that oakdale road [01:36:10] Speaker 3: address at sergeant lanks house not sure of the exact time but yes we did go to sergeant lanks house [01:36:17] Speaker 2: and isn't it true that at 6 28 almost 45 minutes later actually a little better than 45 minutes later you left that address at michael lanks house and drove back to your house directly after leaving mike lanks i went home correct and you arrived at your house at 6 34 correct according [01:36:39] Speaker 3: to the paper what about according to your memory i don't remember exact times [01:36:47] Speaker 1: mr jackson is this a good place to take a break do you have a while more okay [01:36:59] Speaker 2: all right mr jackson go right ahead thank you your honor uh miss mccabe i'm going to shift gears to some phone calls um that you had with trooper michael proctor back in january of 2022 moving forward to february of 2022 moving forward to february and march um you want to may i approach yes thank you tell me miss mccabe if you recognize those documents that i just handed you [01:37:38] Speaker 3: yes this first one looks like um a verizon record of my phone okay and what about the second document um phone bill um and yes more records from my phone okay um i want to ask you a couple of questions [01:37:59] Speaker 2: if you're before i do i'd like to have both of those documents respectively marked just for identification so i don't anticipate i don't anticipate entering [01:38:18] Speaker ?: m and n for identification [01:38:29] Speaker 2: thank you thank you may i continue thank you miss mccabe you had a number of phone calls with michael proctor on january 29th moving into january 30th and on to 31st correct [01:38:46] Speaker 1: are you asking her to read the records or not yet i will in just all right so turn the records over see [01:38:51] Speaker 2: if you can answer the questions about looking okay you had a number of phone calls uh with michael proctor in the in the days and hours following the incident correct yes i know i had some phone calls yes i'm assuming you don't remember exactly the time and duration of those phone calls as you sit here correct would it refresh your recollection to look at your phone records that you supplied um for this time period sure there's two different documents miss uh mccabe one of them deals starts with january 29th can you grab that document please sure okay you should see some highlights on that document i do did you make a or did you receive a phone call from michael proctor at about 10 54 a.m on january 29th a couple of minutes in length [01:39:43] Speaker 1: i object to the form okay so you asked her if this would refresh your recollection you need to ask her [01:39:48] Speaker 2: if this refreshes a recollection sure do you remember as you sit here a phone call at 10 54 a.m [01:39:55] Speaker 3: i remember getting a call i don't remember the exact time would it refresh your recollection to [01:39:59] Speaker 2: look at the document that you're holding as to the time of that phone call time and date [01:40:06] Speaker 3: i see what the document says but i just in my head if you ask me what time did he call you i don't [01:40:11] Speaker 2: remember do you have any quarrel with the accuracy of that document no it looks pretty accurate okay it looks right it looks possible yeah all right did you receive as you sit here do you recall does that refresh your recollection that you received a phone call from michael proctor about 10 54 in the morning [01:40:28] Speaker 1: does that refresh your your memory now i i know i did receive a phone call from him yes at that time i'm i don't know the exact time all right so the answer is no was it mid-morning yes did you receive [01:40:44] Speaker 2: another phone call on the 29th uh around without looking so this is again you're being asked i'm going to go through this with each one of these calls there's not that many but okay okay on the [01:40:54] Speaker 3: 29th did you receive a phone call at around 12 49. i know i received a phone call um i again don't [01:41:03] Speaker 2: remember the time would it refresh your recollection to look at that document at the next line down or [01:41:07] Speaker 3: the next phone call from with that number yes i see that there's a call on this record okay is your [01:41:14] Speaker 2: recollection refresh refresh that you did receive another phone call on the 29th from michael proctor [01:41:20] Speaker 1: is your recollection is like do you now remember independently that i not the time i don't remember [01:41:25] Speaker 3: the specific times no but i do remember that he did call me yes okay so there's two phone calls [01:41:30] Speaker 4: easy excuse me um i only object in form but i don't object to the record [01:41:36] Speaker 1: all right so i guess the record is fine but if you're asking it whether she remembers you're not going to get any limits well then i'll just i'm being told that there's no objection fine to the record just the question where you're incorporating several things from fine then that that'll speed things along i [01:42:00] Speaker 2: appreciate the objections yes i have no objection to the data coming in thank you i'm just going to speed things along and i appreciate mr brennan's um assistance with that january 29th you see the record indicates a phone call from michael proctor at 10 54 a.m yes you also see on that same record a phone call on january 29th coming in from michael proctor at 12 49 p.m correct yes moving on down to january 30th you see a record of a call at 9 51 a.m from you to michael proctor correct yes january 30th about a minute later you see a phone call from you to michael proctor lasting about 22 minutes correct yes january 30th at approximately 4 45 p.m you see a call from michael proctor to you call lasting about 10 minutes correct going on to the next day january 31st you see a phone call from you to michael proctor at 11 51 a.m just before noon lasting about four minutes correct yes take a look at the second document if you will that covers that document or that time frame the second document you should see some highlights and i'm going to ask you to start where there's a tab at february 14 2022 [01:43:42] Speaker 3: i don't is am i looking at the second one or the may i approach one yes this one this one this one has the february 14th there you go thank you mr kade taking a look at that [01:44:10] Speaker 2: document uh and by the way for the record which one is that m or n um this is m m as in mary mary yes thank you do you see a record of a phone call on february 14th at about 3 55 pm lasting about 17 minutes between you and michael proctor yes february 17th at about 5 19 pm is there a record of a call between between you and michael proctor at that time yes february 28th at about 12 48 pm is there a record of a call between you and michael proctor yes on the same date february 28th do you see a call at 4 34 pm with you and michael proctor yes march 1st march 1st at 10 16 am do you see a call between a record of a call between you and michael proctor lasting 10 minutes yes march 1st you should see two calls one at 4 51 pm and one at 5 0 6 pm do you [01:45:11] Speaker 3: see those two calls between you and michael proctor yes one was one minute and the other was two thank [01:45:19] Speaker 2: you and staying on that same date uh at 5 50 pm do you see a call on march 1st between you and michael proctor lasting about 12 minutes yes and then finally on march 29th 2022 do you see a call at about 3 27 pm lasting about four minutes i'm sorry what was the date march 29th oh okay yes okay and that's about a four minute call at 3 27 in the afternoon yes okay and you had in fact and that's that's all i have on those records thank you for that miss mccabe uh you had in fact met michael proctor in person on january 29th correct yes he was actually in your home and personally interviewed you correct yes uh not only did you have him in your home it was for the purpose of a formal interview between the two of you in person is that right yes that was the time that brian albert was there yes in your home as well yes and you had at least i think we went through about 14 phone calls with michael proctor in just the next days and weeks going all the way up through february and march we've just gone over those correct yes there are calls but you're right about [01:46:32] Speaker 3: the number of calls but some of them it doesn't i don't even know if they were answered and of course [01:46:37] Speaker 2: that doesn't and that may be true but you're communicating back and forth certainly yes in the weeks and months following yes and that doesn't include those those records just for brevity's sake those records stop in march but there were more communications in april may june july august [01:46:54] Speaker 3: correct i'm not sure about that i don't know i think initially we communicated but i'm not sure how long it went so and then i know we started communicating again in the summer of 23 i believe [01:47:08] Speaker 2: our april of 23. so you had spoken with michael proctor on the phone many times we've just gone [01:47:14] Speaker 3: over those records correct yes you met him in person on the 29th yes when he came to interview [01:47:22] Speaker 2: me at my house correct you just took the words out of my mouth that was for a formal interview with you correct yes and it was in your house that you met him for that formal interview yes and that was probably for some time it wasn't a two-minute conversation no you then in september or october of 2023 you were interviewed by lieutenant tully correct i have been interviewed by lieutenant tully i i don't recall the date and you indicated just now that you began picking up conversations with uh michael proctor again in the summer of 2023 correct yes so there were many more communications at that time just before the september october time frame of 2023 yes but that was in regards to something different than this case not the subject matter but you had met him and talked to him more times in the [01:48:14] Speaker 3: summer of 2023 correct i never met with him i just spoke with him okay in that interview with [01:48:20] Speaker 2: trooper tully you were specifically asked about your relationship with michael proctor when trooper tully sat down with you and that i think it was a september or maybe it was an october [01:48:30] Speaker 3: interview correct i don't remember the specifics of the interview he asked you specifically whether or not [01:48:37] Speaker 2: you had met michael proctor whether or not you had any sort of relationship with michael proctor is that right i'm not sure the specifics of the interview isn't it true that you told lieutenant tully that you had quote never met trooper proctor prior to september of 2023 no because michael proctor was in my house [01:48:58] Speaker 3: in january in january of 2022 exactly the the interview the trooper tully [01:49:18] Speaker 2: i may have just a moment your honor the interview with trooper tully in that fall of 2023 where did that take place i i don't recall um do you recall telling trooper tully that you had never met elizabeth proctor or michael proctor prior to september 2023 no would refresh your recollection if you saw a copy of [01:50:00] Speaker 3: trooper of lieutenant tully's report i don't need to see the report because i know i told him that i met [01:50:07] Speaker 1: him on january 29th when he came to my house so again that is sustained ladies and gentlemen um i instructed you on previous questions regarding the same type of thing whether another witness is lying or not um disregard the question and move on mr jackson if you had told trooper proctor [01:50:38] Speaker 2: the i'm sorry trooper tully lieutenant tully that you had never met trooper proctor before september of 2023 would that have been a truthful or an untruthful statement i exactly like to be seen okay come to sidebar next question may i did trooper tully i'm sorry did you tell trooper tully quote you had never met elizabeth proctor or michael proctor prior to september 2023 end quote i had never met elizabeth proctor prior the question was did you tell lieutenant tully that quote if i can break that quote up because it's two thick parts no you can't so with this has been asked and answered move on mr jackson do you deny as you sit here telling lieutenant tully that quote that i just read do you deny it sustained move along the questions been answered let's talk for a second about your phone calls to john o'keefe on january 29th 2022 i'd like to go through those calls with you briefly if i could your honor this has previously been marked exhibit 26 mr brennan has a copy if i may yes thank you [01:52:07] Speaker 1: thanks [01:52:20] Speaker 2: you've indicated on on direct examination and earlier on cross-examination that you had multiple phone calls to mr o'keefe in the early morning hours of january 29th 2022 correct correct those phone calls ranged from about 12 14 a.m until about 12 50 a.m correct [01:52:48] Speaker 3: there was a call at 12 14 and then at 12 18. i'm sorry i'm bracketing it the call i apologize that's [01:52:55] Speaker 2: okay 12 14 all the way to about 12 50 correct are you saying 15 50 50 50. oh sorry i apologize um yes yes yes yes yes yes you called john o'keefe at 12 14 and 31 seconds lasting about 49 seconds and that call was answered correct yes and you see that reflected in in exhibit 26 is that right is that right yes going in reverse chronological order on this exhibit you also see you also see you also see a call at 12 18 and 47 seconds wherein you call i'm sorry john o'keefe calls your phone lasting about 36 seconds is that right yes you know that that call was answered even though it says um sorry it says unknown in the document correct it does say unknown yes that one two three four fifth column over that's where it says unknown yes but it also indicates that that call lasted 36 seconds so you [01:54:14] Speaker 3: know it was answered i don't know from this record it was answered but i know from my memory that i [01:54:20] Speaker 2: spoke to him a second time yes you also made a call moving out to the page before this starting at the bottom of the page at 12 29 and 44 seconds there's a call from you to john o'keefe's phone lasting seven seconds correct that's what it says and the record indicates that it was an answered phone call correct according to the record it was answered but i never spoke to him you deny speaking to john o'keefe at 12 29 and 44 seconds yes i never spoke to him after 12 18. okay moving up 12 41 in 10 seconds there was a call to from you to john o'keefe's phone indicating that that was missed you see where it says missed i do 12 41 in 59 seconds there was another call from your call your phone to john's phone and that was also indicated as missed correct correct 12 43 19 seconds you called john o'keefe that was a missed call correct 12 46 in 16 seconds you called john o'keefe's phone and that was a missed call correct 12 47 in 52 seconds yes at 12 50 and 37 seconds you called john o'keefe's phone and that was a missed call as well yes miss mccabe these are there's seven calls that you indicate you made to john o'keefe's phone and that were missed is that right according to this record yes that comports with your memory correct you indicated that you had called him multiple times uh that morning and there were missed calls right i called him but i also think [01:56:33] Speaker 3: that some of the calls i might have done inadvertently well we're going to get to that in a second my [01:56:38] Speaker 2: question is that comports with your memory that there were several calls according to the records there were several calls made to john o'keefe's phone including two calls that you say you spoke to him [01:56:48] Speaker 3: 12 14 and 12 18. i spoke to him at 12 14 and 12 18 yes but you indicate every single call after that [01:56:54] Speaker 2: was missed and you deny making those calls i'm not denying it i just don't remember you've previously given explanation for what those calls were these seven calls that were missed between about 12 29 and about 12 50 that's 19 minutes you'll agree correct yes if you divide 19 by seven that's about every two and a half minutes or 2.7 minutes your phone is calling john o'keefe's phone [01:57:20] Speaker 5: correct correct you previously explained what you attribute to those phone calls is that right yes what's your [01:57:30] Speaker 3: explanation i think i was going back and forth to the door i was texting him i think i put my phone in my pocket i think i inadvertently maybe have called him what did you call it at the last hearing um i believe i called it a butt dial [01:57:48] Speaker 2: and it's not just one butt dial correct there could be multiple yes seven butt dials in the course of 19 [01:57:54] Speaker 3: minutes less than 20 minutes correct that evening i wasn't paying attention to butt dials or calls i was going back and forth listening to music being with family so if i inadvertently called his phone i did [01:58:08] Speaker 2: not inadvertently called him once seven times correct according to you according to the record and we only know about these calls because you're looking at an extraction of john o'keefe's phone [01:58:23] Speaker 3: correct correct but i also turned over my phone so you could have gotten all of that [01:58:28] Speaker 2: off of my phone as well and you're well aware that an extraction was done on your phone and not one of those butt dials appears on your phone extraction correct objection are you aware of that i am not aware of that next question weren't you confronted with that at the last hearing a year ago whether not those phone calls actually exist on your phone logs objection do you remember that i remember you [01:58:55] Speaker 3: asking previously yes [01:59:05] Speaker 2: when you when you dial somebody by mistake it requires several steps doesn't it [01:59:14] Speaker 3: i'm not sure a lot of times i just put my phone down and the next thing i know [01:59:19] Speaker 2: i think it's very common to do butt dials so you have an iphone is that right you have an iphone i do yes and that iphone required a biometric or a passcode uh to get into the open to be an open phone it's not open right it's not open correct and it requires your phone required some sort of a biometric uh interaction with the phone or whatever case id or you put in a code correct [01:59:46] Speaker 3: yes or i could have been texting and then after i texted the phone was open and i could have accidentally called john that happens to me all the time it also requires you to open the phone app [01:59:58] Speaker 2: correct for instance if you're texting you're in the text app is that right [02:00:05] Speaker 3: actually i'm not i'd have to sit and look at it well how often make phone calls every day every day every day yeah hundreds of times a day right not hundreds dozens of times a day [02:00:17] Speaker 2: yeah you have to open the phone out to make a phone call you can't call somebody from the texting app [02:00:22] Speaker 3: right is that right i'm not sure i don't know what to tell you there's a list of apps at the bottom of the phone yes messages oh is that yes yes and maybe i accidentally hit the last thing the last call [02:00:41] Speaker 5: like since i had talked to john at this point i would ask the court to instruct the witness to answer my [02:00:47] Speaker 1: question i believe she is go ahead and finish okay [02:00:58] Speaker 2: i'm sorry jumping the gun [02:01:07] Speaker 1: so let me ms mccabe answer only the question that's being asked of you okay [02:01:12] Speaker 2: ms mccabe you're aware that when you're in the messaging app you have to do something else [02:01:17] Speaker 6: to open the the phone app correct correct with the test phone is that right yes that would open a [02:01:26] Speaker 2: separate app correct correct then once that phone app is open then you have to choose a person to call correct yes sometimes the last dialed right if that happens to be the last dialed scroll through pick a person make one tap and that calls the person and initiates the call correct that is one way yes but if you get out of the app i'm sorry if you if you close your phone hit the lock button after a text message none of that can happen without you having to open the phone and engage the phone [02:02:00] Speaker 3: additionally correct if you um hit the button to lock it yes right so you indicated that [02:02:09] Speaker 2: these are all missed calls is that right that's at the record show yes in addition to a missed call you've had missed calls before you both received a missed call and you make calls that were missed is that right yes when you make a call that's missed generally goes to voicemail does it not it does yes so then you have to do something additional with that call push the end button correct correct otherwise voicemails just go on forever and actually they go on for four minutes right right i don't know how long voicemails go for so if you had missed calls seven missed calls that's at least 14 interactions double it because you got to make the call then you got to end the call 14 interactions with your phone for a single missed call i'm sorry for seven missed calls it could be yes and your testimony is you don't remember making a single one of those calls to john o'keefe between 1229 [02:03:18] Speaker 5: and 1250 correct i do not remember making those calls no as you sit here do you deny making those calls between 12 29 and 12 50 to john o'keefe oh i'm not denying that no [02:03:44] Speaker 2: i'd like to ask you a few questions about january 29th a little further on in the morning after you got home from 34 fairview approximately what time did you get home [02:03:58] Speaker 3: i'm not sure maybe around 11 30 12 i'm not sure 11 30 or 12. it could be 11. are you talking about [02:04:06] Speaker 2: i'm confused are you talking about let me let me rephrase the question okay sorry on the night of the early morning hours of january 29 2022 oh i'm sorry okay [02:04:22] Speaker 3: i was after two i was after two i believe i'm not positive you went upstairs is that right yes you [02:04:30] Speaker 2: began to engage with your phone yes what application did you open up on your phone once you got upstairs uh it could have been hawk amok sports um i'm sorry i'm backing up foundationally what application on [02:04:45] Speaker 3: the phone was it safari oh okay yes i think i think yes you use safari as your browser i'm not sure what [02:04:52] Speaker 2: i used um you opened up a search engine as well within that browser did you not [02:04:59] Speaker 3: i'm not i just know i googled um hawk amok splits i believe i'm not sure what app i opened or how i did went about it so google is a search engine you use google i mean possibly i mean that's just an expression but i'm not if you could show my record i'm not sure what app i opened well you've seen [02:05:17] Speaker 2: this record many many times about that search early in the morning hours correct you know that it was a google search it was google okay it was a google search okay so it was a google search using the safari app okay you indicated that you were google searching hawk amok sports and something about ozone yes ozone sports or it was a basketball yes what time was it that you did that google search [02:05:49] Speaker 3: it was when i was home up in bed i don't have an exact time about 12 about 2 27 a.m correct i'd have to look at a record i don't recall off the top of my head that time frame don't you i know i was home and i googled that but i don't remember the exact time you do recognize 2 27 a.m i do recognize it but it's not from me remembering it from that night specifically it's from me learning [02:06:14] Speaker 2: afterwards and what you learned afterwards was there was a google search at 2 27 a.m right i mean that's that's the that's a layup to use a basketball term right there's a record i think that one right of the record is of a google search at 2 27 a.m on your phone is that right [02:06:37] Speaker 3: i'm i don't i'm not a phone expert so i don't know i can't read [02:06:43] Speaker 2: you're well aware you don't have to be a phone expert to know that there was a google search on your phone recovered at 2 27 in the morning you you know that you've been told that you've seen it you've been asked about it dozens of times haven't you i have been asked about it dozens of times yes so let's set the foundation there was a google search on your phone at 2 27 a.m correct [02:07:06] Speaker 3: which google search are you referring to it doesn't matter miss mccabe well i know i did ozone and i did hawk amok sports and i didn't ask those were the only two things that i googled i didn't ask you what [02:07:17] Speaker 2: you googled i haven't gotten there yet we're going to get there i've asked you was there a google search at 2 27 a.m on your phone if you want to show me a report sure okay as you said i don't have no record you have nothing in your mind about google search at 2 27 a.m [02:07:38] Speaker 3: that's what you're testifying to right now are you asking me if i made a google search at 227 i don't know what time i was searching for hawk amok sports and ozone i have no idea what time that was [02:07:52] Speaker 6: you're well aware that your records have been told correct yes they have you've been talking [02:07:57] Speaker 2: with those records many times haven't you i've been asked by you yes and and by others right yes i mean the police have asked you about you've been interviewed about it i've been asked by you and mr lally yeah mr lally asked about it yes and every time you're asked it's about a google search at 2 27 a.m [02:08:22] Speaker 3: that's all i'm asking it is but it's not one that i remember doing or making or did it's not one i did [02:08:28] Speaker 2: it's just one that is in a record that was misread are you denying that you made a google search at 2 27 a.m [02:08:35] Speaker 3: if you could show me this google search i'd appreciate it [02:08:42] Speaker 2: yes [02:08:52] Speaker ?: your honour i need a quick minute to find a record that i did not make sure that's fine um [02:09:08] Speaker 6: i'll see please on the inside but i will so if miss little wants to keep looking [02:09:38] Speaker ?: so [02:10:08] Speaker 1: to have you take a recess so that the lawyers are just going to get something done fairly quickly [02:10:33] Speaker 2: so that we can continue um up until the lunch hours your honor may i yes thank you miss mccabe i don't have a paper copy but i'm gonna ask you to take a look at something that we display on the on the screen and ask you a couple of questions about that can you uh zoom in [02:11:03] Speaker 4: that's okay um take it down [02:11:16] Speaker 1: that's that's not how it appears you need to get rid of a column [02:11:21] Speaker 2: that's exactly how it appears yola that's the council it's at back [02:11:33] Speaker ?: so so so so so so so so so so so so so you so you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you [02:13:46] Speaker 2: you [02:13:57] Speaker 3: you [02:13:59] Speaker ?: you you you [02:13:59] Speaker 3: you [02:14:16] Speaker 6: you [02:14:27] Speaker ?: you [02:14:27] Speaker 2: indicated you wanted to see a record in this became did you see a record that indicated a google search not what the contents of the google search is but there was a google search I just saw a celebrate record yes and did you see the time of the google search on that record yes Yes. Is it 2:27 a.m., correct? Yes. Ultimately, you will agree that there was a Google search done, and now I'm going to ask about the content of Haas Long to Die in Cold, correct? That was done in the morning at the request of Ms. Reed. Mr. Cave, I didn't ask you that. I asked you a yes or no question. Did you understand my question? Could you repeat it, please? Sure, I'd be happy to. Thank you. Did that record indicate that there was a search at some point done, at some point, for a Google search? Yes. [02:15:12] Speaker 3: Haas Long to Die in Cold. Was there a search on that at some point? On that paper, was there a search that said that? Is that the question? Let's start with that. Yes. Yeah, there was. Okay. Now let me ask you a different question. You Google search the phrase Haas Long to Die in Cold. Yes or no? Yes. On January 29th, correct? Yes. [02:15:42] Speaker 2: So you agree that you were on Google, correct? Yes. You agree that there was a search done at 2:27 a.m., correct? I don't recall doing a search at 2:27. The paper says it. I don't. Okay. And you also agree that at some point that morning, you plugged into that phone, Haas Long to Die in Cold. Is that right? Yes, after we found John O'Keefe. Now you claim that that was at 6:00 a.m. 6:23 and at 6:24 in the morning, two iterations of how long to die in the cold. Haas Long to Die in Cold, how long T.I. Die in C.I. K.D., correct? I'm not claiming it. It's the truth is what happened. You're testifying to that. Yes, I am. You also testified that at the time you Google search those phrases, it was Karen Reed screaming and yelling at you, shaking you to Google hypothermia, correct? She was pulling on my sleeve, yes. Yes or no? Yes. Okay. You have discussed this Google search and the issue of the hypothermia with Carrie Roberts, correct? I told her in the days following. Yes. You discussed it in the days following January 29th, correct? Yes. You discussed it before her testimony at the grand jury, correct? [02:17:08] Speaker 3: We discussed it after. We don't talk about what we're going to say before testifying or anything like that. So in the three months between this incident and the testimony by both you and Ms. Roberts, you two did not discuss this hypothermia issue? It wasn't an issue. It was just something she said, but we don't discuss it every day. There's no need to. I didn't ask you to discuss it every day. I asked you if you ever discussed it. [02:17:42] Speaker 2: Originally, yes, we did discuss it in the first days following all of this. And that would have been before either one of you testified at the grand jury, correct? Yes. And we know that you were with her during her, sorry, just before her testimony at the grand jury. Is that right? Yes. And you're certainly aware that at the grand jury, that in prior testimony, Carrie Roberts corroborated your statement that Karen Reed demanded to Google hypothermia. Okay. [02:18:10] Speaker 1: Ask it differently, Mr. Jackson. [02:18:12] Speaker 2: Are you aware that Carrie Roberts, well, let me ask you in a different way. Have you and Carrie Roberts ever discussed the fact that she corroborated your statement that Karen Reed demanded that you Google hypothermia? No. No. Did you ever ask her that? No. Did you do discuss your statement that Karen Reed was the one that demanded that search? [02:18:38] Speaker 3: Karen Reed did ask me to do the search, yes. [02:18:40] Speaker 2: Okay, that's not what I asked you. Did you and Carrie Roberts discuss that? [02:18:43] Speaker 3: Yes, we've talked about that. [02:18:49] Speaker 2: Are you aware that last week Carrie Roberts denied hearing that statement? Sustained. Have you been told, have you been updated, that last week Carrie Roberts denied ever having heard that statement? Yes. Yes. Sustained. May we approach? [02:19:13] Speaker 1: Yes. All right, Jerry's, feel free to stand up and stroll. and stroke. [02:19:46] Speaker ?: Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords [02:21:16] Speaker 1: Transcription by CastingWords [02:21:46] Speaker 2: Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords [02:22:18] Speaker 3: Transcription by CastingWords [02:22:46] Speaker 2: Transcription by CastingWords [02:22:48] Speaker 3: Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords [02:22:52] Speaker 2: Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords [02:23:00] Speaker 3: Transcription by CastingWords [02:23:02] Speaker 2: Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords [02:23:08] Speaker 3: Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords [02:23:12] Speaker 2: Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords [02:23:20] Speaker ?: Transcription by CastingWords [02:23:20] Speaker 2: Transcription by CastingWords Gabe, you were with Carrie Roberts just before her grand jury testimony. Is that right? Yes. You had been with her to create a timeline of a version of events that occurred, correct? [02:23:36] Speaker 3: I wouldn't say a version of events. We each put down what we remembered. [02:23:41] Speaker 2: She saw what you put down. You saw what she put down. [02:23:45] Speaker 3: Yes. [02:23:46] Speaker 2: And you compared and contrasted those with each other to create that timeline, correct? [02:23:51] Speaker 3: No, we didn't compare and contrast. I said she called me, she said this thing, Carrie, and someone was writing it down for us. [02:23:59] Speaker 2: That would be your sister, who? [02:24:04] Speaker 3: It was my sister, yes. Which sister? My sister, Denise. [02:24:09] Speaker 5: What's your last name? [02:24:11] Speaker 3: Galvin. [02:24:12] Speaker 5: Is she here? [02:24:13] Speaker 3: She is here, yes. [02:24:14] Speaker 5: Where is she? [02:24:15] Speaker 3: She's sitting over there. [02:24:16] Speaker 5: Can you point to her and describe what she's wearing? [02:24:20] Speaker 3: Sure. She's over there in the back with the striped shirt on. [02:24:24] Speaker 2: Between the gentleman in the purple and the gentleman in the black? [02:24:27] Speaker 3: Yes. [02:24:31] Speaker 2: So she witnessed this timeline being prepared, correct? [02:24:36] Speaker 3: She wrote the timeline, yes. [02:24:39] Speaker 2: And then you've spoken to Ms. Roberts several times about this case. [02:24:45] Speaker 3: Yes. [02:24:46] Speaker 2: And about your perceptions of this case, correct? [02:24:50] Speaker 3: We talk about what happened and the aftermath of this case. We don't talk about the specific details as much as we talk about the aftermath of everything. [02:25:01] Speaker 2: Ms. McCabe, the fact is you instructed Carrie Roberts to say that she heard that Google hypothermia statement from my client before she testified at the grand jury, didn't you? [02:25:13] Speaker 3: No, absolutely not. I never instructed her to do anything. [02:25:16] Speaker 2: You wanted some witness to back up your story about this Google search, correct? [02:25:23] Speaker 3: No, absolutely not. Ms. McCabe? It was said. Karen said it. It's that simple. [02:25:27] Speaker 2: So you're the only person saying that, though? [02:25:30] Speaker 3: Yes. And I stand by that 110%. [02:25:32] Speaker 2: And the reason that you wanted another witness to back up that statement is because you knew that that Google search for Haas Long to die in cold points a very uncomfortable finger right toward you, correct? [02:25:47] Speaker 3: I never did that search at 227. I never needed to instruct somebody. No, I'm sorry. [02:25:56] Speaker 2: There's an apology again. Has someone told you that you need to apologize when you say, when there's an uncomfortable question that you don't want to answer? [02:26:03] Speaker 3: No. [02:26:04] Speaker 2: Have you discussed this with anybody? [02:26:06] Speaker 3: No, and that's not an uncomfortable question. I'm fine to answer it. [02:26:09] Speaker 2: How many times did you say, I apologize yesterday in the cross-examination? [02:26:13] Speaker 3: I didn't count. [02:26:15] Speaker 2: Probably more than 15, right? [02:26:17] Speaker 3: I have no idea. I'm just trying to answer the questions and be truthful as I can. [02:26:22] Speaker 2: And you're aware that Celebrite, the Celebrite extraction that was done on your phone, determined that of the three searches, 227 a.m., 623 a.m., 624 a.m., only one of them was recorded as deleted, correct? Gotcha. Sustained. Have you ever been confronted with having deleted a Google search off your phone? You ever been asked that? [02:26:55] Speaker 3: Yes, by you. [02:26:56] Speaker 2: Do you deny that you deleted a Google search off your phone? [02:26:59] Speaker 3: I never deleted a Google search off my phone. So you deny? I never did that. I deny it, yes. [02:27:05] Speaker 2: That you ever deleted a Google search? [02:27:07] Speaker 3: Yes. I never made the search. [02:27:11] Speaker 2: I'd like to move back to the time of about 6.03 in the morning. Ms. McCabe, when you, along with Carrie Roberts and Ms. Reed, approached 34 Fairview. This is Exhibit 4. It's been previously entered into evidence, and I think you've seen part of this exhibit. Do you recall, before we get to the exhibit, do you recall my client when the first officer on scene, do you know his name, by the way? [02:27:43] Speaker 3: I believe it was Officer Seraf. [02:27:46] Speaker 2: When Officer Seraf approached, he asked the question, what happened? Something like that. Open-ended question. Do you remember that? [02:27:54] Speaker 3: I don't remember what he specifically said. [02:27:57] Speaker 2: Do you remember my client, a few seconds later, saying, my boyfriend, I left him. He never came home. [02:28:04] Speaker 3: I don't remember the specifics of what was said. [02:28:08] Speaker 2: Your Honor, if we could, I would ask that we queue up Exhibit 4 for the jurors at runtime 420. [02:28:16] Speaker 1: Okay. [02:28:21] Speaker 2: Before we play this, I'm going to play just like a second of it and ask if you can hear the volume. [02:28:31] Speaker ?: Okay. [02:28:32] Speaker 2: We could, Ms. Wolfe. Could you hear anything? [02:28:39] Speaker 3: Oh, I can hear. Yes, sir. [02:28:40] Speaker 2: Okay. I don't know how loud it's going to be, quite frankly. [02:28:43] Speaker 3: Okay. [02:28:47] Speaker 2: Ms. McCabe, will you please pay attention to the audio portion of this video as this is played? Could you hear that? [02:29:04] Speaker 3: I heard something. [02:29:05] Speaker 2: Could you hear my client? Did it sound like Ms. Reed? [02:29:08] Speaker 3: It sounded like a female. [02:29:10] Speaker 2: Did it sound like Ms. Reed, a female? [02:29:12] Speaker 3: I'm not sure I could, could I listen to it again? [02:29:15] Speaker 5: With the court permission one more time? [02:29:17] Speaker 1: One more time. [02:29:32] Speaker 2: Could you hear it? [02:29:36] Speaker 3: I could hear it, yes. [02:29:37] Speaker 2: What did she say? [02:29:38] Speaker 3: I have no idea. [02:29:39] Speaker 2: Did she say, my boyfriend, I left him and he never came home? [02:29:43] Speaker 3: I could not make that out. [02:29:47] Speaker 2: You testified on direct examination that you were basically a passenger along in this ride on the early morning hours of January 29th, 2022, that you were not the person in charge, correct? [02:30:04] Speaker 3: I was in the passenger seat and Ms. Roberts was driving. [02:30:08] Speaker 2: It's a bad question on my part. Let me see if I can reframe that. You testified that it was Carrie Roberts who was basically the take charge person in the scenario between and among the three of you, Ms. Reed, and Ms. Roberts. Yes, yes. Not you, correct? No. You were just sort of along for the ride, assisting how you could, correct? [02:30:28] Speaker 3: I was looking, I was trying to help Ms. Reed and find John O'Keefe. [02:30:32] Speaker 2: If we could play a clip starting at, and I'm going to ask you, Ms. McCabe, to take a look at several clips. The first one starting at 621 run time to 741. It's just over a minute. With the court's permission? [02:30:46] Speaker 1: Yes. [02:30:54] Speaker 2: We'll pause this. Do you recognize the three individuals in the foreground of this video? [02:31:15] Speaker 3: I do, yes. [02:31:16] Speaker 2: Can you start from left to right and describe to the jurors who we're looking at? [02:31:21] Speaker 3: I believe that's me in the black coat. To the right of me is Ms. Roberts, and on the other side of the car is Ms. Reed. [02:31:29] Speaker 2: Ms. Roberts has, just to distinguish, Ms. Roberts seemed to have fur on her hood where you did not? [02:31:34] Speaker 3: Yes. [02:31:35] Speaker 2: If you could go ahead and play that, please. [02:31:39] Speaker 5: Can you pause it, please? [02:31:51] Speaker 2: Can you see who it appears you're talking to at that point? [02:31:55] Speaker 3: I don't know who that is, no. [02:31:57] Speaker 2: Go ahead and play it. Pause it. Does it appear that you're engaged in conversation with that person while Ms. Roberts is attending to something in the truck and Ms. Reed is running back and forth? [02:32:18] Speaker 3: Yes, I was speaking to whoever that was. [02:32:21] Speaker 2: Do you believe that was a police officer? [02:32:23] Speaker 3: I believe, yes. [02:32:24] Speaker 2: Go ahead and play it. Mr. Wolk, if you'll stop that at 741, please. Could you see what was depicted in the video? Could you see what was depicted in the videos? For about that minute and 10 second run time? Yes. Did it appear that you were engaged in conversation with that other person? Yes. When that other person walked away, could you see his jacket? [02:33:23] Speaker 3: I couldn't make it out, no. [02:33:25] Speaker 2: Did it appear to be, he's a police officer? [02:33:27] Speaker 3: I'm going to assume it was a police officer, yes. [02:33:29] Speaker 2: Okay. In that video, who looks most like she is taking charge? You or Carrie Roberts? [02:33:36] Speaker 7: Exactly. [02:33:36] Speaker 2: Sustained. Does it appear in that video that you're the one controlling the narrative, at least with law enforcement at that point? Objection. [02:33:43] Speaker 1: Sustained. [02:33:44] Speaker 2: Does it appear in that video that you're the one engaging in conversation with law enforcement, while Carrie Roberts and Ms. Reed are otherwise occupied? [02:33:53] Speaker 3: I am speaking with law enforcement, yes. [02:33:58] Speaker 2: Can we move to runtime 8.56? Yes. Pause it. Can you see yourself in that video? [02:34:18] Speaker 3: I can, yes. [02:34:19] Speaker 2: Which person are you? [02:34:21] Speaker 3: I'm in the far right. [02:34:22] Speaker 2: Speaking to someone? [02:34:25] Speaker 3: Yes. [02:34:26] Speaker 2: Who is that you're speaking to? [02:34:27] Speaker 3: I can't make it out, but it looks like a police officer, possibly. [02:34:31] Speaker 2: And Ms. Roberts is directly in the middle of the screen, is that right? [02:34:35] Speaker 3: I thought that was Ms. Reed, but I could be wrong. [02:34:39] Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and play it. At 9.26, you'll stop, please. In that video clip, who among the three of you appear to be most engaged with law enforcement? Law enforcement at that time. [02:35:14] Speaker 1: Can you tell, can you answer that, Ms. Reed? [02:35:19] Speaker 3: I mean, can you answer that, Ms. McCabe? Yes, I can. I was speaking to police officers, yes. I was trying to help them. Okay. [02:35:26] Speaker 2: Can we go to runtime 10.49? This will be from 10.49 to 11.55, Mr. Wolk. Can you pause it? Who is it that's gesticulating in the video? [02:35:43] Speaker 3: That is me. [02:35:44] Speaker 2: Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? [02:35:45] Speaker ?: Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? 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Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? Can we go ahead and play it? [02:36:57] Speaker 2: You appeared to be most engaged with law enforcement in that clip. I was. Runtime 2022, Mr. Wolk. [02:37:12] Speaker 5: Stop it. [02:37:15] Speaker 2: Do you see yourself in that video? I do, yes. You've just walked in from frame right? Yes. From frame right, going left? [02:37:34] Speaker 3: Yes, behind Ms. Roberts. Okay. [02:37:36] Speaker 2: And that's you right in the middle of the screen? [02:37:37] Speaker 3: Yes, it is. [02:37:38] Speaker 2: And Ms. Roberts had already run through, went to her SUV, correct? Yes. Go ahead and play it. This is about a two-minute clip for the court's edification. All right. And this is the last of them. And this is the last of them. Mr. Wolk, can you pause it? Can you tell who you're speaking to there? I think it's Mike Lang. [02:38:19] Speaker ?: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. [02:38:21] Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and play it. [02:38:22] Speaker ?: Let's go ahead and play it. [02:38:22] Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and play it. [02:38:23] Speaker ?: Let's go ahead and play it. [02:38:23] Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and play it. [02:38:24] Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and play it. [02:38:25] Speaker ?: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. [02:40:03] Speaker 5: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. [02:40:05] Speaker ?: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. [02:40:27] Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. [02:40:35] Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and play it. [02:40:36] Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. [02:40:49] Speaker ?: Let's go ahead and play it. [02:40:49] Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and play it. [02:40:50] Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and play it. [02:40:51] Speaker 5: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. [02:40:57] Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. [02:41:01] Speaker ?: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. [02:41:03] Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and play it. [02:41:04] Speaker ?: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. [02:41:15] Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. [02:41:21] Speaker ?: Let's go ahead and play it. [02:41:22] Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. [02:41:24] Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. [02:41:28] Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and play it. [02:41:29] Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. [02:41:32] Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and play it. [02:41:33] Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. [02:42:00] Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and play it. [02:42:01] Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. Let's go ahead and play it. You called 911 at about 6:03 and 35 seconds. Is that right? I don't expect you to know down to the second, but it's about a couple of minutes after 6:00. [02:42:24] Speaker 3: Right after. Yeah, we found him. [02:42:26] Speaker 2: Yes. And you're aware from the dash cam that Officer Serif got there about 6:10, almost on the nose, right? [02:42:33] Speaker 3: I didn't pay attention to the time. [02:42:36] Speaker 2: You'll agree with me that there was about six and a half minutes or so between the time you called 911 and the time Officer Serif got there. Is that right? [02:42:44] Speaker 3: That's what the dash cam says. Yes. [02:42:46] Speaker 2: On that 911 call, you referred to John O'Keefe as a man passed out in the snow. [02:42:51] Speaker 3: Yes. [02:42:52] Speaker 2: You didn't say this is my friend. [02:42:54] Speaker 3: I needed to get, like you said, emergency there. Did you say this is my friend? I wasn't going to give a description and say my friend is in the snow. I was going to give them the information that I thought was the most important at the time. Did you say his name? I just said a man, because that was the most important identifying. [02:43:15] Speaker 2: You didn't say John. [02:43:16] Speaker 3: Eventually in the 911, I do say his name. [02:43:20] Speaker 2: You didn't initially say O'Keefe, correct? No, none of that matters. [02:43:24] Speaker 3: It was a man in the snow and I wanted help there. [02:43:26] Speaker 2: And you didn't say he's a Boston police officer or an off-duty police officer. [02:43:32] Speaker 3: Again, a man needed help. [02:43:35] Speaker 2: Yes or no? [02:43:36] Speaker 3: Did you say that? [02:43:37] Speaker 2: No, I didn't. Yes or no. Do you think that might have sped things up if they knew, if the 911 operator knew that this was a fallen officer, a fellow officer? [02:43:45] Speaker 3: I think 911 comes to everyone equally. I don't think they would have. [02:43:50] Speaker 2: Do you think that might have been something important to relay to the 911 officials? [02:43:54] Speaker 3: I don't know. [02:43:56] Speaker 2: You even asked by the 911 operator, does anybody know CPR? And your answer was no, correct? [02:44:01] Speaker 3: I'd have to listen to it to remember my exact answers. [02:44:05] Speaker 2: But it was basically in the negative. No, we're not professionals. We're just out here doing the best we can, correct? [02:44:11] Speaker 3: I wouldn't say that, no. [02:44:13] Speaker 2: You didn't believe Karen Reed knew CPR? I didn't know. [02:44:16] Speaker 3: I don't think I answered that question. I don't think it was asked. [02:44:19] Speaker 2: You didn't know if Keri Roberts knew CPR, correct? [02:44:21] Speaker 3: I didn't know if they knew CPR, correct. [02:44:23] Speaker 2: And none of you were paramedics? [02:44:25] Speaker 3: No. [02:44:26] Speaker 2: None of you were first responders? No. None of you were trained in emergency life-saving techniques in any way, correct? [02:44:31] Speaker 3: Correct. [02:44:32] Speaker 2: I have a question, Ms. McCabe. Mm-hmm. On all of Fairview, the entire road between Chapman and Cedar Crest, can you think of any person on that road who might have had life-saving techniques? Can you think of any training techniques trained into them? First responder. Someone who knew how to deal with someone in distress. Someone with high-skill-level training. Can you think of anyone on Fairview who had that kind of training? [02:45:03] Speaker 3: Can I now or did I then? Which are you asking? Did you then? No. Then my focus was on John O'Keefe. Okay. [02:45:11] Speaker 2: Let me narrow the focus. How about on the property? How about at 34 Fairview? Could you think of anyone that was a first responder who would have life-saving training, life-saving technique training under his belt? [02:45:24] Speaker 3: Yes. My brother-in-law, Brian Albert. [02:45:27] Speaker 2: And you didn't go in the house, did you? [02:45:32] Speaker 3: No, I did not. [02:45:36] Speaker 2: When you arrived at the scene, you didn't go in? Not until much later, correct? [02:45:40] Speaker 3: Our focus was John. [02:45:41] Speaker 2: You knew that Brian Albert was inside the house. You'd just been with him hours earlier, correct? Yes. You knew that his window was 30 feet away. You're staring at it. You could look at it if you wanted to, correct? [02:45:52] Speaker 3: It's off to an angle. [02:45:54] Speaker 2: And you didn't go in the house then either? [02:45:56] Speaker 3: I did not know. [02:45:57] Speaker 2: You knew that John O'Keefe was clinging to life during those precious, those precious minutes and seconds. Is that right? [02:46:04] Speaker 3: I did, yes. [02:46:05] Speaker 2: And you also knew that Brian Albert, your brother-in-law, was a first responder trained to deal with people in that kind of distress, correct? [02:46:15] Speaker 3: In that moment, my only thoughts were John and everything we could do for John. [02:46:19] Speaker 2: And you knew that there were warm blankets inside the house? Is that right? [02:46:24] Speaker 3: I did, yes. There were warm blankets in the house. [02:46:27] Speaker 2: And you still never went in, did you? [02:46:28] Speaker 3: No, I went and attended to John because once I finished calling 9-1-1, I went over to John and Kerry Roberts asked me to take over compressions. So I felt like that was more important. And 9-1-1 was on the way. I never thought about going in the house. I just thought, how can I help John? [02:46:45] Speaker 2: You never thought about going in the house, but you did pull out your cell phone and make two phone calls, didn't you? [02:46:52] Speaker 3: After I called 9-1-1, I tried calling my sister, yes. [02:46:55] Speaker 2: While John was out in the cold, clinging to life, you were doing chest compressions at 607 and 608 for you. [02:47:02] Speaker 3: I was walking over when I was calling. [02:47:04] Speaker 2: You were calling your sister on the phone, weren't you? [02:47:08] Speaker 3: I was calling them to see if they would come out, but I was going right over to work on him. [02:47:13] Speaker 2: And you could have walked 25 feet to the front door, walked in the house, and screamed for Brian Albert to come out and help in those precious seconds and minutes, couldn't you? [02:47:23] Speaker 3: That would have taken me away from helping John, getting carry blankets, giving him compressions. [02:47:28] Speaker 2: And making those two very important phone calls, 607 and 608, that you say were not answered, correct? [02:47:33] Speaker 3: They were not important phone calls. I tried to call my sister, and then I focused on John. [02:47:38] Speaker 2: They were not important phone calls, but they were important enough for you to make while John is clinging to life right there in front of you, right? [02:47:45] Speaker 3: As I was walking over, I called to see if she would answer. And she didn't answer. [02:47:50] Speaker 2: Let's talk about that. She didn't answer according to you. [02:47:52] Speaker 1: So if we're going to talk about it, we're beyond the lunch and break? [02:47:56] Speaker 2: Your Honor, I have two more questions. Okay. And I'll wrap it. Okay. Let's talk about that real quick. [02:48:01] Speaker 3: Sure. [02:48:02] Speaker 2: She didn't answer the phone, did she? No, she didn't. So you have a situation where a man is laying dead or dying in the front yard of your sister's house. You see nothing in terms of life inside the house. Lights aren't coming on. They're not getting up. They're certainly not coming outside, right? They were sound asleep. [02:48:24] Speaker 3: They weren't coming outside, were they? Because they were asleep. [02:48:28] Speaker 2: You didn't know if they were asleep. All you knew was there was a severely injured man on the front lawn of their house, and your sister didn't answer the phone. Not once, but twice, correct? Correct. [02:48:40] Speaker 3: She didn't answer the phone. [02:48:41] Speaker 2: Did you think your sister might have been in peril? Did you think to go inside the house and check that they're okay? [02:48:47] Speaker 3: I had no reason to think that they weren't okay. [02:48:51] Speaker 2: You had no reason to believe they weren't okay. A man was dead or dying on their lawn, and your sister's not answering the phone. And nobody is coming out to the chaos of Karen Reed screaming on the front lawn. You didn't think there was some reason to believe they could have been in peril? [02:49:06] Speaker 3: I didn't, because your client was screaming she hit him. She had a cracked taillight. She was crying she hit him. I didn't, but my focus... Can I finish, please? You had solved the crime right then and there. [02:49:17] Speaker 2: You solved the whole case. [02:49:19] Speaker 3: No, I didn't. I knew John never came in the house, so I had no concern for anyone's safety inside the house. [02:49:25] Speaker 2: The reason you didn't go inside the house is because you knew better. You knew better. You knew she wasn't in peril. You knew that Brian Albert wasn't in peril. You weren't worried at all about them, were you? [02:49:40] Speaker 3: I was not worried at all, because something happened on the front lawn that had nothing to do with anything inside that house. [02:49:48] Speaker 2: You weren't worried about them at all, because you knew what really happened. Didn't you expect? [02:49:56] Speaker 3: At that moment, I didn't know that he was hit by a vehicle and there was taillight found next to him. That's all I have. [02:50:03] Speaker 1: All right, jurors, lunch and break. All right, whenever you're ready, Mr. Brennan. [02:50:13] Speaker 7: Thank you, Your Honor. Good afternoon, Mrs. McCade. [02:50:24] Speaker 3: Good afternoon. [02:50:25] Speaker 7: I want you to briefly tell us your memory of the weather when you first arrived at Fairview, when you left at Fairview, and when you returned the next morning a little after 6 a.m. [02:50:39] Speaker 3: Okay. When I arrived at Fairview on the evening, early hours of the 29th, the snow was falling, you know, just starting to fall, starting to stick to the street and onto the windshields. When I left Fairview, it had, you know, accumulated more where my husband had to wipe the windows. And then the following morning, when we were driving there, it was dark and the snow was, like, coming out the car. Like, it was very hard to see. [02:51:13] Speaker 7: When you returned the next morning, we've seen video from the dash cam. The elements, the visibility, is that fairly depicted in that dash cam? [02:51:22] Speaker 3: Yes. I mean, obviously, it was lit more because of the lighting and the spotlights, et cetera. [02:51:29] Speaker 7: From the moment that you first saw John until you went into your sister's home, is it fair to say a number of different first responders arrived? Yes. When the first responders arrived, did you see a number of different vehicles arrive? [02:51:45] Speaker 3: I did, yes. [02:51:46] Speaker 7: Did any of them have their sirens on? [02:51:49] Speaker 3: Not that I recall. [02:51:52] Speaker 7: Ambulance, fire truck, police cars, do you remember ever any siren on at all? [02:51:57] Speaker 3: Not that I recall, no. [02:51:59] Speaker 7: And your sister and brother-in-law, you described how you went in the house and woke them up. They never came out before you woke them up? [02:52:07] Speaker 3: No, they didn't. [02:52:08] Speaker 7: There was a house right next to where you found John before 34. Do you know what address that is? I would assume it's 32. Did you ever see anybody come out of 32 Fairview and come over to John in the scene to help out? No. Across the street, there's a house that's in between 32 and 34 if you cross the street? Yes. Did you ever see anybody come out of that house and offer assistance to help? No. There's a house right across the street from 34 Fairview, isn't there? Yes. And did anybody, anybody ever come out of that house and come over to assist? [02:52:48] Speaker 3: No. [02:52:50] Speaker 7: When you were trying to help John that moment, have you ever been trained in emergency aid? [02:52:56] Speaker 3: Probably 25, 30 years ago. [02:52:59] Speaker 7: Your state of mind. Best describe how you were feeling at that moment as far as your focus and what was going through your mind. [02:53:07] Speaker 3: I was shocked, confused, nervous, scared, anxious. My friend was lying there on the ground. I had no idea what happened. All I wanted to do was to get help for John as fast as I could. [02:53:24] Speaker 7: You saw on the dash cam you spoke to a number of different people in law enforcement? Yes. In fact, during that day, a number of different people from law enforcement, did they call you? [02:53:36] Speaker 1: Objection. I'll allow that. Move along too, Mr. Fred. [02:53:39] Speaker 7: Did a number of people call you from law enforcement that day? [02:53:45] Speaker 3: On the day of the 29th? Yes. Michael Proctor called me. Okay. [02:53:50] Speaker 7: Did you speak to law enforcement after that day? Yes. Were you asked to engage in interviews? [02:53:55] Speaker 3: Yes. [02:53:56] Speaker 7: Were you asked to testify in front of grand juries? Yes. Were you asked to come to court and testify? [02:54:02] Speaker 3: Yes. [02:54:03] Speaker 7: Did you ever once refuse to speak to the police? No. Did you ever once refuse to testify? [02:54:10] Speaker 3: No. [02:54:11] Speaker 7: When you were speaking to the police on that dash cam, it's depicted on the dash cam, why were you speaking to the police? [02:54:18] Speaker 3: Well, each officer that arrived had a set of questions of who it was, what happened, etc. So I was answering all the questions because my main focus was John. [02:54:31] Speaker 7: Did you ever try to be evasive with the police? [02:54:34] Speaker 3: No, I told them everything I knew. [02:54:36] Speaker 7: Did you ever try to avoid speaking to them? Objection. [02:54:41] Speaker 1: The form. [02:54:43] Speaker 7: Did you ever hold anything back from the police when you spoke to them? [02:54:47] Speaker 1: Objection. I'll allow that and then let's move on. No, I didn't. [02:54:51] Speaker 7: When you interviewed with many different law enforcement and people involved in this case, were you ever given an opportunity to review somebody else's report after it was written and provide edits or your input? Objection. [02:55:09] Speaker 5: Objection. I'll allow it. [02:55:11] Speaker 3: No. [02:55:16] Speaker 7: When you testified, are you testifying from what somebody wrote? They interpreted what you said months or years ago or are you testifying from your own memory? Objection. [02:55:27] Speaker 3: I'll allow it. I'm testifying from my own memory. [02:55:33] Speaker 7: You called 911? Yes. And that morning when you called 911, well, let me ask you, do you wear an Apple watch? I do have one, yes. When you were speaking to 911 that morning and during that event, how did you feel? [02:55:53] Speaker 3: Extremely nervous, anxious, scared, uncertain, panicked. [02:55:59] Speaker 7: Do you think your heartbeat was up? Yes. Yes. At 2:27, the night before or around that time when you were looking up Hockamock before you went to bed, were you of the same state of mind of fear and panic or were you in a very different state of mind? Objection. [02:56:17] Speaker 1: Strike the fear and panic part. You can answer that though. Were you of the same mind or different? [02:56:21] Speaker 3: Different. [02:56:22] Speaker 7: What was your state of mind at that time? [02:56:24] Speaker 3: I was relaxed, just playing on my phone, looking at things before I went to bed. [02:56:30] Speaker 7: Do you think your heartbeat was as elevated that evening as it was the next morning? [02:56:35] Speaker 1: Objection. Sustained. [02:56:39] Speaker 7: When you made a search for how long to die in the cold or how long to die in cold, is that something that you thought of for yourself? [02:56:49] Speaker 5: Objection. [02:56:50] Speaker 3: I don't love it. No. [02:56:52] Speaker 7: Why did you do it? [02:56:53] Speaker 3: Ms. Reed asked me to Google it. [02:56:55] Speaker 7: And when was that? [02:56:57] Speaker 3: That was in the morning after we found him. [02:57:00] Speaker 7: And had you ever attempted either of those searches before Ms. Reed asked you to do that? No, I didn't. You were asked questions about the next day when you visited the O'Keefe home. And you read some records. Do you remember those questions? [02:57:27] Speaker 3: Yes. [02:57:28] Speaker 7: Do you remember going to the O'Keefe home? [02:57:30] Speaker 3: I do, yes. [02:57:31] Speaker 7: You went with who? [02:57:33] Speaker 3: With Carrie and our two daughters. [02:57:35] Speaker 7: Do you remember how many hours you spent with the O'Keefe family? [02:57:39] Speaker 3: I don't remember how many hours, say a few. [02:57:42] Speaker 7: Was it over three or four? [02:57:44] Speaker 3: Could have been, I'm not sure. [02:57:45] Speaker 7: What is the reason that you spent so much time with the O'Keefe home the next day? [02:57:49] Speaker 3: We went over to offer support, love, comfort to be with them. [02:57:54] Speaker 7: You weren't avoiding them, were you? [02:57:56] Speaker 3: No. Sustained. [02:57:58] Speaker 7: After you left the O'Keefe home and reading the records, I don't know if this is your memory, it was suggested it was 5:12. Do you remember going to Fairview? [02:58:13] Speaker 3: I remember driving by Fairview on the way to Mike Langs. [02:58:19] Speaker 7: When you went to Fairview, you asked questions about when you stopped by whether that meant you went in or were outside. Do you remember whether you went in or were outside? We never went in. Have you seen your phone records that there are no calls to your sister when you went by Fairview at that time? [02:58:35] Speaker 5: Objection. [02:58:36] Speaker 3: I haven't, no. [02:58:38] Speaker 7: And when you went by, you were asked about that. In fact, you had been asked about that before, hadn't you? Yes. Whether you sought by? Yes. And Attorney Jackson showed you part of that statement? Yes. Did you, when you were saying that's part of the statement, did you leave the whole statement to yourself? I did. And to put that in completeness, had you, under oath, talked about the fact that you went by that day? [02:59:05] Speaker 3: I'm confused by your question. [02:59:08] Speaker 7: Okay. [02:59:09] Speaker 1: May I approach? [02:59:10] Speaker ?: Yes. 181, 182. Thank you. [02:59:25] Speaker 7: Thank you. You were shown page 181 and then 182? Yes. And so when you were asked about that before, had you, in fact, offered under oath that you did go by Fairview? [02:59:37] Speaker 3: Yes. [02:59:41] Speaker 7: When you stopped by Fairview, according to the questions you were asked, or the records you were asked to read, it was four minutes you stopped by Fairview. Does that sound like your memory? [02:59:55] Speaker 3: No. I know we drove by, slowed down, and we were looking outside. [03:00:00] Speaker 7: Why did you want to go back to the very scene that you had seen that morning? [03:00:05] Speaker 3: I think we, Carrie and I, just, I'm not really sure. I think we just drove down and we... [03:00:12] Speaker 1: All right. So your answer is not really sure. Okay. Next question. [03:00:17] Speaker 7: And then according to the records that were read to you, you went to Detective Lang's house? Yes. And you were at that address for about 40 minutes, 50 minutes? [03:00:33] Speaker 3: Yes. [03:00:34] Speaker ?: Okay. [03:00:35] Speaker 7: You were read or shown certain text messages between you and some of your family? Yes. Was that a complete listing of the text messages in order that were on your phone? [03:00:50] Speaker 3: I had a lot of text messages with them on my phone, yes. [03:00:53] Speaker 7: Were some missing from what you were shown? I'm not sure. [03:00:56] Speaker 3: Okay. [03:00:57] Speaker 7: You were asked about your state of mind. I'm going to ask you about some of those text messages in a minute. [03:01:02] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. [03:01:04] Speaker 7: You were asked about calls and text messages to John O'Keefe? Yes. Have you ever inadvertently called anybody before on your iPhone? [03:01:15] Speaker 3: I'll allow it. Yes, many times. [03:01:17] Speaker 7: And you were asked whether or not you remembered or knew that those calls were made to Mr. O'Keefe? [03:01:24] Speaker 3: Yes. [03:01:26] Speaker 7: Did you purposely make those calls? [03:01:28] Speaker 3: No, I do not believe so. [03:01:31] Speaker 7: If you inadvertently called on purpose, it wouldn't be inadvertent, would it? True. Did John ever answer any of your calls after that 12:18 call? [03:01:43] Speaker 3: No, he didn't. [03:01:45] Speaker 7: And when you were reaching out to him, did you reach out to him the next morning after you heard from the defendant? [03:01:50] Speaker 3: I did, yes. [03:01:51] Speaker 7: What? [03:01:53] Speaker 3: Next question, Mr. Blum. [03:01:55] Speaker 7: Why were you reaching out to him? [03:01:57] Speaker 3: Because I was trying to get in touch with him. Because Ms. Reed said he didn't come home. Okay. [03:02:01] Speaker 7: You were asked about your state of mind over the next couple days? Yes. And I'd like to ask you about some of the text messages reflecting your full state of mind over the next couple days. [03:02:28] Speaker 1: Oh, this has to be really burned. [03:02:33] Speaker ?: Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [03:08:10] Speaker 1: All right, jurors, you're about to hear some evidence. And remember, I told you this morning that before you consider any electronic communication in your deliberations, you must first find that it is more likely true than not that the person who authored or created or sent, transmitted this communication was, in fact, the person alleged to have done so. If you do not find it is more likely true than not that the person alleged to have transmitted, created these messages, then you may not consider the electronic communication in deciding this case. And remember, what you're about to hear, you're not to use for the truth of the statement. It goes simply to the state of mind of Ms. McCabe at the time of the message. All right. Go ahead, Mr. Brennan. Thank you. [03:08:57] Speaker 7: May I approach with a coffee for the witness? Yes. [03:08:59] Speaker 1: Thank you. [03:09:00] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. [03:09:02] Speaker 7: Thank you. [03:09:03] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [03:09:16] Speaker 7: When law enforcement asks for your phone, was there any requirement you give that to them? Objection. [03:09:22] Speaker 6: Sustained. [03:09:23] Speaker 7: Did you voluntarily consent to give your entire phone to law enforcement? [03:09:24] Speaker ?: I'll allow that. [03:09:25] Speaker 7: Yes, I did. I handed you a document that reflects your text messages from that morning and the next day. You were asked about some of them on the screen. Do you remember that? Yes. Okay. And you were asked how that affected your state of mind and the decisions that you were making? Correct? Yes. I want to read along and I'll indicate if you look at the number on the left and then I'll read it and you can let me know if I read it accurately. [03:09:56] Speaker 3: Okay. [03:09:57] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. [03:10:01] Speaker 7: Starting at number 17, there's a phone call saying, please answer. Who are you calling? I'm sorry, where does it say? [03:10:24] Speaker 3: May I approach? Yes. Oh, that's the number right there. [03:10:27] Speaker 1: This would be the number. [03:10:28] Speaker ?: This would be the call. Okay. Okay. [03:10:32] Speaker 4: Okay. So that's John O'Keefe. Okay. Okay. Okay. So that's John O'Keefe. [03:10:38] Speaker ?: Okay. [03:10:39] Speaker 3: Okay. Thanks. [03:10:41] Speaker ?: Sorry. Okay. [03:10:43] Speaker 3: All right. Number 17, phone call, please answer. [03:10:45] Speaker ?: Who are you calling? John O'Keefe. Okay. All right. Number 17, phone call, please answer. Who are you calling? John O'Keefe. [03:10:53] Speaker 7: Okay. Okay. All right. Number 17, phone call, please answer. Who are you calling? [03:10:59] Speaker 3: John O'Keefe. John O'Keefe. [03:11:01] Speaker 7: Do you know at that point where he is? [03:11:04] Speaker 3: No. [03:11:05] Speaker 7: 459-49, number 18, Karen is worried. We need to find you. [03:11:15] Speaker 3: John O'Keefe. [03:11:17] Speaker 7: 504-40, number 19, please answer so I know you're okay. Who are you calling? [03:11:27] Speaker 3: John O'Keefe. [03:11:28] Speaker 7: Number 26, 515-41, 129. Okay. I'm trying to call people. I will be in touch soon. Do you know who you're calling? [03:11:51] Speaker 3: I don't recognize the number. [03:11:53] Speaker 7: Okay. What are you thinking at this point? [03:11:58] Speaker 3: I'm trying to find people. I'm trying to call people so that I can try to find John. [03:12:12] Speaker 7: Number 31, 522-57, 129. Okay. I tried to beady. Okay. I just talked to her. What are you referring to? [03:12:26] Speaker 3: I don't know whose number this is. Okay. [03:12:33] Speaker 7: At this point in the morning, you're making these phone calls. Do you know where John is? [03:12:37] Speaker 3: No, I have no idea where he is. [03:12:47] Speaker 7: Turn to number 48, 129-22 at 844. You're texting any update. What is your state of mind? Which number is this? [03:12:57] Speaker 3: Number 48. [03:12:58] Speaker 7: 48. [03:12:59] Speaker 3: I believe that may be to Kerry Roberts and I'm trying to get an update from the hospital. [03:13:11] Speaker 7: You were asked about your relationship with Kerry Roberts. At that time, before that night, how many times had you met her? [03:13:19] Speaker 3: Once. [03:13:20] Speaker 7: And you said in the moment, did that relationship change? [03:13:23] Speaker 3: Yes, instantly. [03:13:24] Speaker 7: Was it for collusion? [03:13:26] Speaker 3: No. [03:13:29] Speaker 7: Let me ask you, number 160. This is 129 at 2:00 in that afternoon. Do you have 160? Sorry. It's okay. [03:13:51] Speaker 3: Okay. [03:13:52] Speaker 7: I'm here. 160. Do you see that? [03:13:55] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. [03:13:56] Speaker 7: Okay. I can't stop seeing him in the snow. Jen, this is awful. Who's that from? [03:14:06] Speaker 3: Kerry. [03:14:08] Speaker 7: Is your state of mind collusion? [03:14:10] Speaker 3: No. Injection. [03:14:12] Speaker 1: I'll allow it. Don't ask it again, please, Mr. Werner. [03:14:15] Speaker 7: 168. 129.22 at 204.32. You're calling Ms. Roberts. Every time I close my eyes, it's all I see. I feel like I'm going to vomit. I just can't even. I know how close you two were. I can't imagine how hard the situation is for you. Does this reflect your state of mind that day? Yes. Yeah. [03:14:40] Speaker 1: I'll allow it. [03:14:41] Speaker 5: We have to approach this. [03:14:42] Speaker ?: Rejections noted. [03:14:43] Speaker 1: Next question. We need to approach on this particular task. [03:14:46] Speaker 5: Come to cyber. Oh, sorry. on this particular task. Welcome to CyberObside Force. [03:15:18] Speaker ?: CyberObside Force [03:15:48] Speaker 1: CyberObside Force [03:16:06] Speaker ?: CyberObside Force CyberObside Force CyberObside Force [03:16:16] Speaker 4: this number is i won't read it but this number on top whose number is that that is nine and the bottom number is who it's going to yes so this text message is this what you wrote yes it is to carry [03:16:29] Speaker 3: yes it is [03:16:49] Speaker 7: i won't read that last text message again however it is correct that text message was from you to miss roberts number 168 yes it was and the response in this text message number 169 from miss roberts to you you are also this is awful jen i'm in shock yes number 170 and this one is from miss roberts to you 129 22 at 205 45 i literally am having wine i don't know what to do calm down yes 171 at 206 35 on 129 22 from you to miss roberts i know i am definitely in shock and it keeps hitting me i just feel so sick is that accurate yes i'm gonna read one more 172 and this is from miss roberts to you at 213 41 on 129 22 i don't know what to even do i'm so sorry for both of us is that accurate yes number 175 again again again to miss roberts 214 15 129 22 do you text i talked to peggy i am devastated for them yes and did you follow up seconds later at 214 56 on 129 22 i am so sick to my stomach yes that day did you have to speak to your children about what happened i did yes was that part of your state of mind that day yeah i'll allow that number 208 or 207 you received a text from this number i don't want to say it out loud but if you could read it 207 do you know who that's from i don't okay we'll move to the next one then 208 129 22 342 06. i've never felt so sick is that accurate yes number 210 433 40 129 22 you text messaging somebody yes you know who that is i don't just off of the number okay and this text message is this from you to somebody yes my mind is racing i have that awful feeling in my gut like i am about i'll allow it sent by this witness my mind is racing i have that awful feeling in my gut like i am about to puke besides seeing the awful image trying to wrap my head around what happened to him is that accurate yes 213 this is on 129 22 at 4 38 20 [03:20:49] Speaker 3: do you know who was texting you yes who my friend [03:20:55] Speaker 7: once things settle you need to talk to someone and process the trauma and then 214 you respond 129 22 4 40 38 i have been shaking since this a.m i feel so sick everything started to be a blur and all run into each other yes and this is at 4 40 38 at 129 22 yes and during that day you've spoken to i'm going to law enforcement yes and the days that follow yes i'm going to move to 129 22 752 if you look at number 289 please okay at 289 is this a text from your sister nicole yes any update is that accurate yes okay and you were shown this text at 292 yes and you texted your sister kerry talked to cops kept it simple yes what did you mean by that [03:22:32] Speaker 3: i mean uh the cops had gone to our house but she had had a long day and been drinking some wine so she [03:22:38] Speaker 7: said she just made it quick and you were sharing that with your sister yes and was your sister part of many of these texts as part of your support group yes did anybody tell you that you shouldn't rely on your family and have a conversation about what you went through objection all about that no no one did and during that uh text time the one i just read to you was at 754 38 she turned to 296 129 22 at 756 50. did your sister text you okay try get some sleep talk tomorrow yes and did you text back at 757 yes but don't feel pressure yes and the next one 298 at 757 07 was your sister asking you for any updates yes and at 757 13 did she text you i love you don't beat yourself up you did the best you could yes in just a few minutes later one at number 308 please 129 22 at 801 pm did your sister again write to you okay text me in the a.m if you hear anything later yes can you continue texting with her yes okay you were asked about a timeline yes if you turn to number 761 please [03:24:45] Speaker ?: what page is that on 248 [03:24:59] Speaker 3: what page is that on 248 i'm missing page 248 you don't have a two page 48 no i it stops at 2 12 and picks up at 253 can i stand with the witness sharon yes [03:25:33] Speaker 7: can you remind us who asked you to put together a timeline peggy peggy peggy yes two days later january 31st 2022 and this is at 10 26 29 a.m are you texting miss roberts i am i have spent the a.m trying to process that he is really gone and try to piece together all the events is that part of the process of the timeline yes at some point on the 31st was something happening around fairview road that you learned [03:26:30] Speaker 3: i believe there was a police presence was there any presence from the media the press oh yes there was was that causing any concern um i believe i talked to peggy and she was um [03:26:47] Speaker 7: so on january 31st 2022 we're at number 864 you're receiving information do you know who this number is that's calling you that's my sister which one nicole and she's texting you news people came by and knocked on the door again they're all leaving now peggy and them left about 15 minutes ago yes and then at one o'clock 18 one o'clock 18 seconds on 1322 you text back did you answer the door correct was this part of your state of mind on the 31st what was going on around the house yes just a few more [03:27:28] Speaker ?: you're saying you're going on around the house yes just a few more you want to go on around the house and now we're going to go on around the house and then we're going to go to the house and then we're going to go to the house again and then we're going to go to the house and then we're going to go to the house again and then we're going to go to the house again and then we're going to go to the house again and then we're going to go to the house again and then we're going to go to the house again and then we're going to go to the house again and then we're going to go to the house again and then we're going to go to the house again and then we're going to go to the house again and then we're going to go to the house again and we're going to go to the house again and then we're going to go to the house again [03:27:50] Speaker 7: in trying to recount for people who asked you that morning and over the next couple days some of what's reflected in those text messages was that part of your state of mind yes was it in any way affecting the way you were remembering and thinking about what had happened objection i'll allow it yes your honor subject to redactions i would seek to introduce all of miss mccabe's [03:28:34] Speaker 1: text messages so we'll deal with that wait is there an objection there is we'll deal with that okay [03:28:43] Speaker 7: thank you i have no further thank you i have no further questions [03:28:56] Speaker 2: miss mccabe a couple of follow-up questions you indicated on redirect examination that there were no sirens that you heard that morning with the approach of the first responders is that right i don't believe [03:29:11] Speaker 3: there was but they did have their lights on i saw a spotlight yes and i do believe [03:29:18] Speaker 2: they had lights on yes flashing red and blue lights or blue lights or red lights some combination thereof correct correct that was cruisers police cruisers correct yes there were pardon me there were fire suvs in other words a captain of a fire department possibly there were fire trucks and fire engines you know the difference no fire engine figuring with a ladder on it yes there were there's an ambulance correct yes and all of them had their emergency lights on most likely yes all of them had their motors running [03:30:01] Speaker 3: i'm not sure if they were all running they could have been yes certainly there were you would agree [03:30:05] Speaker 2: that there was a cacophony of diesel engines and gasoline engines and internal combustion engines that were running right outside of 34 fairview although no sirens correct i wouldn't exactly say right [03:30:15] Speaker 3: outside of 34 fairview i'd say there were some right outside of 34 34 fairview but the first vehicle pulled up kind of right just on the right end and most of the vehicles with the lights on were to the left so they were actually more in front of 32 fairview but there were vehicles there was miss roberts vehicle and then i believe another vehicle pulled up i think i remember from seeing the dash cam and sarah's cruiser [03:30:42] Speaker 2: correct yes and malaney's cruiser just on the other side of fairy roberts vehicle correct yes i don't believe lights were on his lights were on and there was a ambulance just to the left of to the left [03:30:53] Speaker 3: from behind sarah's vehicle correct yes which would have been in front of 32 fairview lights on that as [03:30:59] Speaker 2: well yes all facing in the direction of 34 fairview correct facing but out front of 32. so is there a reason that you're so resistant to admit that there was a cacophony of sound and noise outside of 34 fairview [03:31:16] Speaker 3: no okay so there was correct outside on the front line yes sideline and there was also some people [03:31:24] Speaker 2: yelling and screaming at a high pitch right yes both miss reed who's yelling and screaming correct correct and miss roberts who at least at some point told her to shut the up correct correct you were asked about the stop at 34 fairview all the way to sergeant lane's house on redirect examination by mr brendan just now correct i was yes he showed you a couple of pages of your transcript from that question and answer correct i believe he showed me a page yes and you noted that this was from this was a question and answer from a hearing last year in this courtroom yes and you admitted that you stopped but actually let me rephrase that you were confronted with the fact that you stopped at 34 fairview on the way to officer length's house sergeant length's house by me on cross-examination correct yes you asked me you also indicated that you have never refused to speak to the police any law enforcement officer [03:32:44] Speaker 3: in this case correct i've spoken one but asked to yes but in point of fact when you were approached [03:32:53] Speaker 2: by the two law enforcement agents who were not connected to massachusetts state police or to canton pd you suspended that interview and refused to answer further questions correct i welcomed them in my house [03:33:08] Speaker 3: i just sat with them and then i stopped and then i met with them a few times after and i answered all their questions that they asked i helped clear up some misconceptions that they had been told and as you know i know they're no longer investigating so i think i helped them well and [03:33:28] Speaker 2: and you're obviously well aware that in that first interview you stopped the interview cold and refused [03:33:38] Speaker 3: to answer further questions correct i said i'm going to stop and i'm going to seek some counsel yes [03:33:49] Speaker 2: the text messages you just read a series of text messages that mr brennan actually read for you and you agreed with correct [03:34:06] Speaker 3: correct [03:34:08] Speaker 2: or any of the text messages that you just read in the group chat that i showed you in cross-examination [03:34:19] Speaker 3: i don't believe so um i don't believe so and that group chat included you brian albert nicole albert [03:34:30] Speaker 2: and matt mccabe correct correct and that was a private chat among the four of you is that right [03:34:35] Speaker 3: that's just a chat with them yes [03:34:40] Speaker 2: you read some text messages to and from carrie roberts correct yes you had just met carrie roberts isn't that right yes she's not a mccabe is that right correct she's not an albert correct correct you even read some text messages with your minor children correct just now yeah i don't believe any with my children mr brennan asked you about a couple of text messages at least one text message [03:35:09] Speaker 1: with your children didn't he no he didn't objection she can answer that question is that what happened [03:35:17] Speaker 3: did i misunderstand no i i honestly didn't read anything from my children i think one i said a friend another time i didn't know who it was but i do know my children's phone numbers and no it was [03:35:29] Speaker 2: none of my kids obviously the kids are not on that group chat uh that private group chat that we went over correct oh yes correct they're not let's talk about those unidentified numbers you said this is a number i don't recognize and mr brennan read to you a text to that person correct yes whoever that is that person's not a mccabe correct they're not uh correct and that person's not an albert [03:35:54] Speaker 3: they could be again i it's it could have been crystal but julie i'm i don't one of the numbers i didn't recognize because i don't i have everybody in my phone with the name so i don't recognize every [03:36:07] Speaker 2: number and that person certainly was not in that group chat with you brian albert nicole albert matt mccabe correct and then there was a friend you said this is a friend and i don't need you to identify the friend but whoever this unidentified friend is that friend is not a mccabe and is not an albert correct correct and that friend was also not in that group chat that we went over in cross examination is that right correct these are all people outside of that group among whom you engaged in the chat that we saw correct correct and that includes carrie roberts she was not included in that group chat where you talked about the case and talked about what she was [03:36:50] Speaker 3: and wasn't doing with law enforcement right correct it was just my sister and my brother-in-law and husband [03:36:57] Speaker 1: that's all i have all right here's the cave you are all set thank you very much

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