FULL TESTIMONY: Mom blames murder conviction on special needs son she tortured to death

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Can you tell the court what your conversations were with Mr. Jetson? That first day, we just kind of talked in general. We said from day one that I was going to have to testify. So we talked about that. He talked about he was putting together a team to work on it. And I remember one thing of all the weird things to remember. He asked me what my favorite TV show was, and he was going to have an intern watch it and then come in and tell me about it every week just to have that time. But there wasn't a whole lot of specifics that day. We were just talking. He asked about my mental health. [00:00:35] Speaker 2: Was there any point in time that you ever conceded your guilt in this case? [00:00:42] Speaker 1: Never. [00:00:43] Speaker 2: Did you always relate to Mr. Jetson that you were not guilty? Yes. All right. Have you ever been charged with anything? No. I've never even gotten a parking ticket. Okay. You have testified in this case, correct? Yes, sir. Prior to testifying in this case, had you ever testified before? Yes, sir, when I was a kid. How old were you? [00:01:15] Speaker 1: Oh, gosh, from age 8 up through, I think, about 16 was the last time I followed. His father tried to get visitation or custody of us. [00:01:23] Speaker 2: Was being charged in this case, can you describe your mental health immediately after being charged? Oh, horrible. [00:01:39] Speaker 1: I couldn't eat. I couldn't sleep. I actually didn't eat for 18 days after I got to a Miss Keaton County jail. It was, I didn't know which way it was up. All right. Okay. [00:01:52] Speaker 2: Um, just as a bit of a background, when did you move to Michigan? Um, 20, not, yeah, 2015, I think. Okay. And what? My little guy was like six months old. Okay. So, um, it was, who moved to Michigan with you? [00:02:21] Speaker 1: It was, uh, my late husband, Adam, and little man, and myself, that was it. Okay. [00:02:26] Speaker 2: And at some point, Paul comes to Michigan? Yes. Do you recall when that was? [00:02:31] Speaker 1: Um, he had just turned 18 and graduated high school, so that was 20, 20, it was a minute in the middle of COVID. [00:02:38] Speaker 2: Okay. And sometime after that, Timothy arrived? A year later. Okay. Do you remember the month? I want to say it was the end of May, because school had let out. May of 2021? Yes, sir. All right. Um, and I think during your testimony in this trial, he came with, like, a bag of medications. A, like, gallon size of blood bag, yeah. All right. [00:03:04] Speaker 1: What, what were the medications for? Um, well, he was diagnosed ADHD, sensory processing disorder, bipolar, and, um, on the autism spectrum, but he was very high functioning, and so that was, um, he had, I don't know, I don't remember the name of any of them really, but there was one that made him like a zombie that he took twice a day. Um, and I mean, I think there was probably eight or nine medications per day that he was taken. Um, why did he move to mission? Um, I got a text from his dad one day, um, that he could no longer deal with him, that Timothy was pushing the buttons. If he did not come to live with me, my ex was going to put his hands on him. [00:03:46] Speaker 2: And so that, so that, so in May of May of May. And asked me to take him, yes. Um, from May and, when he first arrived, what was his behavior like? [00:04:00] Speaker 1: I mean, he was about to turn 15 when we got him, so he was a teenager, but nothing outlandish. I mean, he was trying, he, he did not care to tell the truth hardly at all. Um, there's no point in asking him a question pretty much the whole time, but, uh, you know, he would, he would do stuff. He took my youngest, my youngest toys at times, he broke a couple of them, and then he took some stuff from his, from Paul. But, like, it was just typical teenage, it wasn't anything that we couldn't handle, so. [00:04:29] Speaker 2: Um, in January of 2022, a significant event happens? My late husband, Adam, had a stroke January 3rd, 2022. Okay, and, and what was, um, what would, how did that impact the household? [00:04:52] Speaker 1: Um, better question is probably how didn't it, um, I lost his income, I was already the primary breadwinner, but then I'm the sole breadwinner. Um, he, we had a babysitting schedule worked out, um, for the little guy, and with Paul and Timothy, um, we didn't, we, at that point, we didn't leave Timothy alone with, with the little one, really. Um, and, you know, I was, I was working full time, I was gone because of the location I worked, and driving over there and driving back, I was gone from the house for 12 hours a day, five days a week. Um, so it just, everything just fell apart, you know, I was paying bills on time, I was barely surviving. [00:05:30] Speaker 2: Was Timothy being watched by your late husband, um, prior to January? Yes, yes, came in a little bit. [00:05:42] Speaker 1: Handful. [00:05:45] Speaker 2: Um, I think you mentioned that in your direct testimony, um, this was around Mother's Day of 2022, um, Timothy was about 104 pounds. Mm-hmm. Exactly, yes. Yes. [00:06:01] Speaker 1: And, um, you knew that because you gave up the dog, and. He weighed the dog, I could no longer lift, it was a Great Dane puppy that was seven months old, six months old at the time, and the, the dog weighed 102 pounds, I, there was no way I could lift that dog. Okay. And so he got on the scale, weighed himself, grabbed the dog, got on the scale. [00:06:25] Speaker 2: I'm, well, um, what happens from that day until July 6, 2022? [00:06:37] Speaker 1: I mean, from what little I remember, it was the same thing that had started when the stroke happened. Um, Timothy, I remember a couple times, he flat out told me, he said, I'm going to keep doing stuff until you just let me do what I want. And I said, that's not happening, um, and it just snowballed, there wasn't, I don't remember a peaceful moment after the stroke for one reason or another. And that's not a lot, I mean, it was just in general, but he certainly created a lot of it. [00:07:04] Speaker 2: Um, he dies on July 6, 2022, correct? The month before he turned 16. Um, when are you arrested? July 7th. And, are you immediately taken to the Muskegon County jail? You mean on the 7th? Yes. Uh, yes. From the North Source Police Department. Okay. Um, what's the, what were your conditions like in Muskegon County, or Muskegon County, I'm sorry. [00:07:34] Speaker 1: Uh, it was awful. Um, I was on max security solely because of my charges. So, I was isolated completely by myself in a room. When you say max security, what, what was it like? Um, you're in a room by yourself. You only have the option of getting out of the room into the pod one hour a day. So, you're locked down 23 hours a day. Um, for me, I was in such bad shape, I couldn't eat, I barely slept. I mean, the whole 17 and a half months there, I might have averaged an hour or two asleep a night. And, there was no mental health treatment. I mean, they tried a couple of meds, but they did nothing. And, I kept asking to speak with the, the doctor, because it was always a social worker. And, she said, "Oh, you're on the waiting list." And, I guess, the waiting list is longer than 17 and a half months. But, um, they, she, I met with her a few times, and she was no help at all. She'd say, "Oh, I'll meet with you once a week," or, "I'll meet with you once a month." And, that never happened. [00:08:30] Speaker 2: So, it wasn't because of anything that you did. It was just the nature of your charges that they put you in next. That's the only reason, yes. Um, how often, what, did you have mental health issues prior to that? [00:08:48] Speaker 1: I have severe ADHD, and I have sensory processing disorder, um, and a little bit of OCD. I guess, I actually, it was a month after I got to Huron Valley, I was diagnosed bipolar, which, I've had my whole life, I guess, and didn't know it. Um, but, at the time, I just knew about the ADHD and sensory processing. [00:09:07] Speaker 2: Um, how often, during this time period, would you see Mr. Jensen, from the time that you're incarcerated to, you know, the time? [00:09:16] Speaker 1: I think the first month, I saw him two or three times, but after that, it was every once in a blue moon. I think he said it was once every other month. It didn't even seem like that often. [00:09:30] Speaker 2: Um, during your conversations with him, were you talking trial strategy? [00:09:37] Speaker 1: A little bit. We didn't know a lot, but we did a little bit. [00:09:40] Speaker 2: Was it ever, well, tell me what the strategy was. [00:09:45] Speaker 1: Um, well, on the child abuse charge, it was intentionally and knowingly, and that was, without that, the felony murder charge was gone. And so, that's where we focused, it was never on the, I didn't even realize second degree would be an option until the day of jury selection. Um, so we focused on the, the intentionally knowingly from that, because that cost the, the felony murder charge. Did you know manslaughter was an option? He never, we never talked about second degree or manslaughter until the day of jury selection. It was on the jury instruction, it was on the jury instructions for second degree. And then the last morning, um, when I had the breakdown, um, I vaguely remember him coming in and saying he got these instructions added. And I, I had no clue what to say. I, I was in bad shape, so. [00:10:30] Speaker 2: Well, tell me about, I mean, you testified. Yes. And. Tell, tell, tell the court how you felt during your testimony. [00:10:50] Speaker 1: Well, before the testimony started, and this is one of the things that really shocked me, while the medical examiner was testifying, Fred was writing down questions. [00:10:58] Speaker 3: He had no check in. Objection, non-responsive, sustained. [00:11:03] Speaker 2: How were you feeling during your testimony? Uh, stressed, panicked, scared, terrified. Okay. And after, how did your testimony end on that third day of the trial? [00:11:20] Speaker 1: Um, I believe they were talking about the jury questions, and I had a really bad panic attack. Okay. And, what happens after that? Well, I had been in, like, in the, like, in the room by myself, in a, in a, in a pod. Um. Well, I mean, from the time that you beat the court, the court, this court. Yeah. Instead of going back to the pod, they, I guess the sheriff had decided to put me back down in holding, instead of where I had been, where there was at least people around, even though I couldn't come out to see him. Are you talking, okay, so you're talking about in this? In Muskegon County Jail, yeah. [00:11:53] Speaker 2: Oh, at the bill, okay. Yeah. So, he separated me completely, down in holding. And, did Mr. Johnson talk to you after that, on that third day? Okay. And, what happens at the jail over the course of the night? [00:12:09] Speaker 1: Well, I remember right after I got back, I mean, I was upset at the hold being separated, holding, the lights don't dim, the noise level was horrible, and I, I was trying to think through trial stuff just to keep myself occupied. I had thought of some questions I wanted him to, to come back and try to ask me the next day, but then, I might have, I don't know if I even slept for an hour that night, but I remember, when I was, I don't want to say come to, when I was functioning, I was curled in a ball, I just, I was freaking the heck out, I couldn't, I, when they first came, they got me, I said, I, to get me, I said, I can't even, I can't even go, I can't leave the room, and they're like, well, you have to, come on. And, I didn't know. How were you taken from the jail to the courthouse? Um, well, we went to, I guess, where I changed clothes, and that's as far as I got, um, but, uh, it's, I mean, we walked over. Okay. [00:13:03] Speaker 2: Okay. Um, we heard, you were in the courtroom when we heard some testimony that you were curled up in a ball, is that accurate? Yes. [00:13:13] Speaker 1: Um, were you suicidal? I don't remember saying it, but yes, apparently, I mean, at least one comment that I was going to kill myself. [00:13:29] Speaker 2: Um, all right, I mean, sounds pretty drastic, uh, what, um, what, what else do you remember from that warning? [00:13:41] Speaker 1: I remember just being in sheer panic. I was frozen, like, I couldn't even move. I remember laying up against the, the wall on the floor on my side on a, um, one of the concrete benches in one of the holding rooms that they, they tried to come upstairs, and it, I couldn't do it. And so they, I went in there and, and curled up in a ball on my side. I just, I, I, I was completely paralyzed. I, my, my brain was not working. Anytime I even thought about anything, I was, I wanted to panic, and I had several panic attacks during that time. [00:14:15] Speaker 2: Do you recall talking with Mr. Johnson during this time? [00:14:19] Speaker 1: A little bit, yes, sir. [00:14:21] Speaker 2: What, what, what was the nature of your conversation, or, was he talking to you, are you talking back, or what, what was it, how was it going? [00:14:28] Speaker 1: I remember at one point he came in and said that he had fought for a while to get the involuntary manslaughter instructions put on, and I remember thinking, what's that got to do with anything? And then I specifically asked him, after we tried to come upstairs, I said, Lord, can we please adjourn this? I can't do this today. And I asked him several times, and, and, uh, he made a comment. He said, oh, it'll just be the same way if we do that. It's going to be, you're going to have the same issue. Um, and then he said, well, we'll just go on without you, and then he left. [00:14:55] Speaker 2: Do you recall signing the document? Mm-hmm. You've seen it since, though. Yes, sir. All right. That, is that your signature or not? I mean, it looks like it, it looks like a version of it. Okay. Um, but you don't recall signing? Is that a no? No. Sorry. Did you, did any medical personnel come to talk to you when you were in your condition? No, sir. When you were testifying on that third day, did you ever concede that you were guilty of anything? No, not for a second. And, as far as you knew, Mr. Johnson knew what your position was. [00:16:00] Speaker 1: Oh, yes. And what was that? That I was not guilty. We had a visit, it was one of the last couple of visits I had with him, and he was actually the one that stated, um, we've been talking about the intentionally and knowingly, and he said, they don't have intentionally and knowingly, you're not guilty. Okay. [00:16:14] Speaker 2: And I clung to that. And the intentionally and knowingly phrase that relates to the first degree job. Yes, sir. And in order, and your understanding, the ultimate charge was felony murder. Yes, sir. And the private offense was the first degree job. I don't have any further questions, sir. [00:16:43] Speaker ?: All right. Thank you. Thank you. [00:16:45] Speaker 3: Thank you. Is it all right if I move the podium? You may. [00:16:48] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:16:57] Speaker 4: Thank you. [00:16:58] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. [00:17:00] Speaker 3: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So, Ms. Van Harker, I just want to go back and ask you a little bit about your background, okay? So, were you a legal clerk, or were you, what was your exact role at New Ego County Circuit Court? I was a law clerk. Okay. And you were previously an intern in Muskegon County Circuit Court, correct? Yes. What were some of your job duties in those two positions? [00:17:22] Speaker 1: Oh, sorry. Well, both of them. I did legal research. I helped with the, I helped score sentencing to make sure it was accurate. That was about the extent of it here, because I was still in law school. When I worked for my judge in New Ego, I actually did the research, and I would draft opinions, and then he would, you know, decide if that was okay. And most of the time, he just signed off on, "I got it correct." [00:17:46] Speaker 3: Is it fair to say that you worked on post-conviction motions for your judges? Yes, I did certifications. Including claims of ineffective assistance of counsel? [00:17:56] Speaker 1: I honestly, I mean, I would assume so. I don't remember. [00:18:00] Speaker 3: And so in other defendants' cases, you would be writing draft opinions or bench memos for circuit court judges. [00:18:10] Speaker 1: That's what I wrote. I don't think we had an ineffective assistance. I don't think so. I mean, I may be wrong, but I don't think so. [00:18:17] Speaker 3: And it's your testimony that your opinions, or your, I guess your recommendation to the judge was so good, he just wrote off on it? [00:18:24] Speaker 1: Sign up? Well, most of the time, there was a few that he adjusted, but he would read them and then send them over to a clerk to publish, so. [00:18:32] Speaker 3: And this all happened before you were criminally charged, correct? Yes. So even before you were at a trial, you are intimately familiar with post-conviction motions, correct? [00:18:42] Speaker 1: I wouldn't say intimately familiar. I mean, some of them I was familiar with, but... [00:18:47] Speaker 3: Familiar enough for your judge to just rubber stamp what you said? [00:18:51] Speaker 1: A lot of what we did, actually most of what we did was civil. There was some criminal, but the most of the motions and the work I did as part of writing was civil. He did both civil and criminal. [00:19:03] Speaker 3: Now, Ms. Andrew, you mentioned that Mr. Johnson had a team of individuals at the Public Defender's Office, correct? Yes. And could you tell the judge how many individuals were on that team? [00:19:14] Speaker 1: I have no idea. Um, I think total I met with, over time, probably six? And then he mentioned, I know, he mentioned having somebody doing research and other people and other interns working on it, but that's the people I met with. I don't know how many that were. [00:19:37] Speaker 3: It wasn't just you and Mr. Johnson working on the case, though. No, it wasn't. He had, uh, social workers that assisted you? Yes. And it sounds like interns as well? Yes. And other attorneys in his office? [00:19:50] Speaker 1: Yes, I only met, as far as the criminal side, I only met with another attorney in his office. It was, at one hearing, it was the gentleman that sat second chair and then at trial. I didn't meet with any of the other attorneys otherwise. [00:20:04] Speaker 3: And you said that Mr. Johnson began meeting with you approximately two days after your arrest? Yes. And he continued to meet with you throughout the pendency of the case? Yes. And his team would meet with you throughout the pendency of the case? [00:20:18] Speaker 1: Yes. And the social worker is the one I saw the most. Um, I'm trying to think, I saw the intern some, but that was, that was mostly it. [00:20:27] Speaker 3: And would, um, when you say the social worker, do you recall, was that Melinda Pataki? [00:20:32] Speaker 1: For the last two visits, that was, I only saw her twice in person. Um, and I think she was online once for me with a doctor. Um, but there was another social worker that met with me once a week, usually for the first few months. First, I don't know, probably six months at least. And then she moved on in the office. [00:20:51] Speaker 3: Now, um, Ms. Vandrick, you've spoken quite a bit this morning about your medical, I guess, episode, for lack of a better term? Medical episode that happened mid-trial. Okay? So I'm going to go into that. But that's not the first episode you had during these proceedings, correct? No. Okay. And one of those happened at your preliminary hearing, or your preliminary examination, correct? Yes. And, uh, that occurred just before Paul was going to testify at the prelim, correct? I believe so. And your medical episode that happened in the trial happened right when you'd been confronted during cross-examination, correct? [00:21:35] Speaker 1: I had one other one before, during trial. Oh. [00:21:38] Speaker 3: Okay, when was that? [00:21:39] Speaker 1: I don't -- it was -- there were some police officers testifying. And you could see her -- But I was sitting there, and had a panic attack, and they cleared the jury out. [00:21:48] Speaker 3: And do you recall what the officer was testifying about when you had that episode? I don't know. Probably something pretty significant about your case, though, correct? I mean, I would assume so. Or something about your son's condition? I don't know. It's hard to say that those episodes, though, don't happen all the time. [00:22:08] Speaker 1: I -- they do -- well, they were beforehand, and they still do happen. [00:22:12] Speaker 3: That's a poorly worded question, so I'll clarify here. Those episodes didn't happen on direct examination with your own attorney questioning you, correct? That's correct. They didn't happen. They didn't happen during opening statements? No. No. They didn't happen during certain parts of your preliminary examination. No. But these episodes happen when you're confronted with evidence that you don't want to acknowledge or admit. Is that fair? No. [00:22:48] Speaker 1: They happen when I was confronted with traumatic events. It was anything traumatic that got that bad. [00:22:56] Speaker 3: So seeing your son, who was in your care for all those months, in a picture, was traumatic to you? Yes. [00:23:03] Speaker 1: Extremely. [00:23:04] Speaker 3: But you've seen him every day that he was in your care, correct? [00:23:08] Speaker 1: Yes. What I remembered, yes. [00:23:11] Speaker 3: And then when you see a picture of him on that stand, is when you have this episode. [00:23:17] Speaker 1: Yes. I mean, I had panic attacks. Looking back, I know I had panic attacks previously, but I don't know what brought those on. [00:23:23] Speaker 3: Nobody diagnosed you with a panic attack on the night of that trial, correct? I don't know. [00:23:27] Speaker 1: That's a yes or no. [00:23:28] Speaker 3: I said I don't know. You have no evidence that you had medical diagnosis of a panic attack that day? That day? No. And you have no medical diagnosis that you had a panic attack during the preliminary examination, correct? [00:23:45] Speaker 1: There was no medical person called in. [00:23:48] Speaker 3: Okay, so my question was, you don't have medical documentation of a panic attack that day? [00:23:54] Speaker ?: No? [00:24:05] Speaker 3: So let's talk about some medical documentation you do have. If you recall, Mr. Johnson submitted you to multiple individuals for forensic examination. Yes. And you met with those medical providers? Yes. And how many would you say, based on your memory, you met with? [00:24:30] Speaker 4: A couple. [00:24:32] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:24:33] Speaker 3: Would it surprise you that there's approximately four reports regarding your criminal responsibility or competency? No. [00:24:41] Speaker 1: That wouldn't surprise you? [00:24:42] Speaker 3: No, because I understand the process. [00:24:45] Speaker 1: So that's possible. Okay. [00:24:47] Speaker 3: What's your understanding of the process? [00:24:50] Speaker 1: That both sides can get the competency evaluation and responsibility evaluation. [00:24:55] Speaker 3: And you understand that under Michigan law, you're presumed competent unless proven otherwise, or less shown otherwise, correct? Yes. Yes. You've never been shown to be incompetent, correct? [00:25:05] Speaker 1: Not medically. [00:25:07] Speaker 3: No, not legally. Is that correct? Yes. You have never had a legal determination that you are incompetent, correct? Yes. And that's after meeting with these four providers. Correct? Yes. And in fact, some of the providers called into question your rendition of facts to present to them. Do you recall that? [00:25:37] Speaker 1: I don't recall that, but I'll trust if they said that. [00:25:40] Speaker 3: Do you recall specifically -- let me go back here before we do that. Do you remember your interviews with these providers? Bits and pieces. Okay. Do you feel that you were truthful with them? Yes. Do you feel that you appropriately explained your situation and your memory with them? I hope so. But you don't know, correct? No, I don't. Okay. Okay. Sorry, here we go. [00:26:09] Speaker ?: Wait one moment, please. [00:26:38] Speaker 3: And I'm referencing People's Exhibit 2, which I believe was attached to my brief, which would be a June 20, 2023 report authored by a Benjamin LaLiberty doctor. Okay. Now, did you tell this doctor or this individual at the Department of Health and Human Services Center for Forensic Psychiatry that you disassociated during times that Timothy was in your care? [00:27:15] Speaker 1: Yes, even times when he wasn't. I mean, it happened regularly. It still does. [00:27:21] Speaker 3: Well, and that's my question. So, is your claim in this post-conviction motion that you were disassociating during parts of the trial? [00:27:30] Speaker 1: I mean, I don't, I'm not a medical person, so I don't know, but that's the only answer I have. [00:27:37] Speaker 3: Well, so I'm not asking you to give me a medical opinion. I'm asking you to tell me what you mean when you're saying you disassociate. So what do you mean when you say you disassociate? [00:27:49] Speaker 1: Usually it's a panic attack and I have no clue what's going on around me. I don't remember anything during that. Okay. [00:27:57] Speaker 3: And when you, so you've said that on that day of trial, when you had your episode, that you had a panic attack, but would that be a disassociation like you have just described? During the panic attack, yes. [00:28:11] Speaker 1: They usually only last like 10, maybe 15 minutes. Oh, okay. There's one question. [00:28:16] Speaker ?: There's one question. I just want to interject. [00:28:17] Speaker 5: Ms. Bender, can you describe to the court what you believe a panic attack, or what our experience are not, so what do you call a panic attack? What are you experiencing during this events that you believe when there's a panic attack? [00:28:42] Speaker 1: It's one of two things. I'm breathing either. I hyperventilate. I feel like I've got an elephant sitting in my chest and crushing it and I can't breathe. [00:28:50] Speaker 5: So that's trouble breathing? [00:28:51] Speaker 1: Yes. Um, I, um, I'm shaking. Um, my head is really spinning. Um. To a dizziness? Yes, sir. Um, I don't know what's going on around me. Um, I know people have tried to touch me during a panic attack and that just brings me worse. Um. You mean painful? No. No, just trying to, to make sure I'm okay. [00:29:14] Speaker 4: So when somebody touches you that, what do you experience when someone touches you? I pull away and, and the panic gets worse. Okay, so you're aware of somebody touching you? [00:29:24] Speaker 5: When they actually put their hand on me. Yes. Okay. When you say you don't know what's going on around you, is it, you have auditory problems where you can't hear, or you just have an inability to understand what's being said? [00:29:38] Speaker 1: I think it's both. I mean, I, I don't remember anything that's been said to me during the panic attack. Um, I know I've had, I had, I had a couple people scare me at Toronto Valley. They were just playing around, but it caused a panic attack because I didn't know they were there. And I guess they tried to talk to me and they said, yeah, we got no response. And I don't remember them trying to talk to me at all. Okay. Do you have any other symptoms? It's like they go into a total darkness. [00:30:04] Speaker 5: Like this, this black hole. Okay, no. When you say darkness, are you seeing black? What do you see? Is it spots? [00:30:12] Speaker 1: Like the blacks are gray usually. I'm not, I'll try to fix on the spot as it, as it sets in. But then that's it. I don't, I don't see anything else. Can you move? [00:30:23] Speaker 5: Are you able to move your arms, legs, and extremities? [00:30:26] Speaker 1: No, most of the time, no. [00:30:27] Speaker 5: I'll curl into a ball. So let me ask you a question. Do you curl into a ball? Do you consciously make the decision to curl into a ball to stop the symptoms? Or do you, is it an involuntary movement into a ball? It's an involuntary movement. So involuntary movement into a ball. [00:30:45] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:30:46] Speaker 5: And then you don't know how much time passes? No. [00:30:51] Speaker 1: Is that what you're telling me? No. I know that afterwards, you know, I've had somebody there and look at the clock and the only thing I can tell you has been, I've had people stay working 10 to 15 minutes. Okay. [00:31:03] Speaker 5: And you said these have happened while incarcerated currently? Yes. [00:31:07] Speaker ?: Okay. They still happen. [00:31:09] Speaker 5: In your cell, in your, in the common areas, where have they happened? Most of the times in my room. In your cell? Or in the restroom, yeah. Room or restroom. Okay. Any, any times when other inmates were around? Yes. Okay. So common areas? Yes. Okay. And you're aware that these areas are filled, correct? Yes. This would be on camera? Yep. Okay. So you're telling me that you experienced a panic attack, we've hurled in a ball, on camera at the prison? [00:31:38] Speaker 1: Yes. And then for you, I have one of my units. Somebody came up behind me and scared me. Do you know approximately what that was? I have no idea. Well, I can give you a date range because there was a certain time I was in that unit. All right. Please do so. between end of August of 23, no, 24, 24, and beginning of January of that, of 2025. Okay. [00:32:07] Speaker 5: That was the time I was in there. Thank you. All right. Thank you. I just want to make sure we understand each other about pandemic. I may clarify. [00:32:13] Speaker 3: You said August of 2024 through January of 2025? Yes. [00:32:17] Speaker 1: I was in, I can give you the name of the unit. [00:32:19] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:32:20] Speaker 1: That would be helpful. [00:32:21] Speaker 3: So, Ms. Vanderer, now it seems like we're all on the same page about what you mean when you say panic or disassociate. Yes. Okay. And it's fair to say it's your testimony that you had that sort of episode mid-trial during your cross-examination. Is that your testimony? Yes. Yes. [00:32:52] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:32:53] Speaker 3: Now, are you aware, though, in People's Exhibit 2, that criminal responsibility report that I previously placed in the record, that it was noted by the clinician that your claims of disassociating, quote, "only occurred when Timothy was bad." Are you aware of that in the report? No, I'm not, because that's not true. Okay. And overall, the opinion of the clinician was that when you described your current statement, you did not describe any substantial functional impairments within the context of your current confinement. If I said that, that's not true. [00:33:27] Speaker 1: Well, that was his opinion. That was his opinion? Okay. Yeah. I didn't know I said that. [00:33:32] Speaker 3: And here, let's go further. On page 10. I'm showing the Witness People's Exhibit 2, page 10. [00:34:07] Speaker ?: All right. [00:34:08] Speaker 3: Ms. VanderArk, can we look at that? And would you read right where that star starts? Please read that into the record. [00:34:14] Speaker 1: Ms. VanderArk was asked to recount her thoughts, feelings, and behaviors around the time of the alleged offense. However, Ms. VanderArk claimed to have no memory of the events that led to Timothy's death, noting she frequently disassociated due to the stress of interacting with him. And you can keep reading. [00:34:30] Speaker 3: Please read the whole paragraph. [00:34:31] Speaker 1: Of note, this immediately appeared to be a self-protective response style, as opposed to the result of a genuine memory deficit or bona fide dissociative condition. That is, her purported memory loss was noticeably selective and only involved the actions that allegedly caused the victim's passing. Thus, Ms. VanderArk cannot be considered a credible historian. That's not true. [00:34:51] Speaker 3: So Ms. VanderArk, we don't have an opinion from an expert that you were incompetent, correct? Yes. But we do have an opinion from an expert that you're not a credible historian, correct? Looks like that. And that's specifically as it relates to your credibility about these disassociations you claim to have, correct? That I have, yes. That you claim to have, correct? Have you been diagnosed medically in any of these reports with a disassociative condition? Not in those reports, no. Now, you, um, one of your claims in this, in this post-conviction motion is that you take issue with Mr. Johnson not calling an expert, correct? [00:35:59] Speaker 1: If, I mean, if that's what's in there, then it, we had, we, uh, we discussed it briefly. I didn't know what he was doing. So, as far as if he was going to call him or not. [00:36:10] Speaker 3: So, I just want to make sure I'm clear. You, you weren't sure if Mr. Johnson was going to call the expert or if we weren't going to have the expert here at this hearing? [00:36:18] Speaker 1: Um, for a while I wasn't sure if he was going to call him at the, the, um, the trial. Okay, sorry. [00:36:26] Speaker 3: But you do recall meeting with Dr. King, correct? Okay. Yes. [00:36:31] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:36:32] Speaker 3: How did you feel that meeting went with Dr. King? [00:36:35] Speaker 1: Long. Was it thorough? I would assume so, yeah. I mean, I don't remember the whole thing, but I know it was exhausting. [00:36:43] Speaker ?: Mm-hmm. [00:36:46] Speaker 3: Now, he, Dr. King, also has some opinions as it relates to your credibility as a historian, correct? [00:36:53] Speaker 1: I don't know. You don't know? [00:36:55] Speaker 3: Okay. So, I'm looking here at Defendant's Exhibit B, page 10. And Ms. Vander Aarg, I'm going to just start here where it says conclusion. Ms. Vander Aarg over-reported general psychological dysfunction and generated a larger than average number of infrequent responses. Are you aware that that was determined based on your psychological testing? I mean, I think I've read it before. Okay. You have no reason to dispute what he has in this report. No, I'm not. That's what I'm not disputing. So, you actually attached this report to your motion for a new trial, correct? Yep. My attorney did. Yes. On your behalf, though, correct? Yes. Yes. So, we have one clinician saying that you're not a credible historian and another saying that you over-report general psychological dysfunction, correct? That's what they say. That's what they say. Ms. Vander Aarg, there is no medical opinion now that determined you were not competent to proceed with trial, correct? Correct. You have no medical evidence today that you've presented at this hearing, correct? [00:38:30] Speaker 1: Correct. Nobody bothered to get it. [00:38:33] Speaker 3: Your Honor, I would like to strike that non-responsive answer from the record. I will. [00:38:37] Speaker 5: Thank you. It's non-responsive. [00:38:39] Speaker 3: So, I'm going to shift gears here a little bit. In your direct examination, you've provided multiple other individuals that you want to place blame on for what happened in your criminal case. Is that fair to say? [00:38:57] Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not going to dispute it, I guess. I don't remember all that testimony. [00:39:01] Speaker 3: Well, just today. Today, you said that it was your ex-husband's fault that Timothy came into your care, correct? Well, he asked me, yes. That's what he told me, and that's why I told him. [00:39:12] Speaker 1: Okay. [00:39:13] Speaker 3: And it's your testimony that it's the jail's fault for your housing situation that exacerbated your mental health, correct? [00:39:22] Speaker 1: I didn't have any choice in the matter, so yes. [00:39:24] Speaker 3: So that's a yes or no. Are you blaming the jail for your mental health? [00:39:28] Speaker 1: For making it worse, yes. [00:39:30] Speaker 3: Okay. So we have, you're blaming the jail, you're blaming your ex-husband. Now, you've also blamed Timothy today, didn't you? [00:39:37] Speaker 1: As far as what? [00:39:38] Speaker 3: As far as his behavior is causing you to act the way you acted. [00:39:42] Speaker 1: As far as causing chaos, yes. I mean, as far as causing stress, yes. [00:39:49] Speaker 3: And now you blamed work as well, saying that caused stress. Your employment before your arrest? [00:39:55] Speaker 1: I mean, work always causes stress. [00:40:01] Speaker 3: This has been a consistent theme for you, where you want to blame others for things you've done, correct? I've explained the situation. Well, so you're saying it's your ex-husband's fault, it's the jail's fault, it's Timothy's fault, it's now your trial attorney's fault that we're here. So, is it fair to say it's a theme of yours to point the finger at others for what's going on in your case? I wouldn't say it's a theme, no. [00:40:32] Speaker 1: That's an opinion. And see the things that I had no say in, that you can't blame me for. [00:40:46] Speaker 3: Now let's talk about those jails, the testimony you had about your being held in, you said it was max security during the pre-trial phase? Yes. Correct? You said you were locked in there and isolated? [00:40:58] Speaker 1: In a room by myself, yes. [00:41:01] Speaker 3: Okay, yes. Was Timothy also locked in a room and isolated when you locked him in the closet? [00:41:05] Speaker 1: He wasn't locked in, but he was in the room, yes. [00:41:08] Speaker 3: Okay. When you had alarms on his door to keep him in that closet, was he isolated? Yes. [00:41:15] Speaker 1: Yes. [00:41:16] Speaker 3: And he'd be locked in there for hours at a time, correct? [00:41:20] Speaker 1: I would assume so, yes. I don't know. [00:41:24] Speaker 3: Yes or no? Was he locked in there for hours at a time? [00:41:27] Speaker 1: Yes. [00:41:28] Speaker 3: And you want the court to use your isolation as a basis for making a determination about your mental health, correct? [00:41:45] Speaker 1: It has an effect on it, yes it does. [00:41:47] Speaker 3: What about Timothy's mental health? What impact did you're locking him away, isolated, have on his mental health? [00:41:56] Speaker 1: I have no idea how to answer that. Truthfully. That's what you're here to do. It is truthfully. I have no idea how to answer that. [00:42:04] Speaker 3: You talked about some of his diagnoses, correct? Yes. Obviously it wouldn't be beneficial to him to be isolated like that, correct? Yes. [00:42:23] Speaker 1: I mean, he isolated himself too. He did not. I offered to, there were kids in the neighborhood and I actually specifically asked them. He wasn't the most coordinated kid in the world but they were playing basketball one day and I said, "Hey, can he come over?" They said, "Any time." He never wanted to do that. When we went to Little Man's baseball games, he stuck to himself or with us. He didn't want to go talk to the old kids. [00:42:46] Speaker 3: So it's your testimony that Timothy isolated himself? Some of the time. Not all the time, but some of the time. Timothy, who you went to such lengths to keep away from your in-laws that you were tracking their location so that your child G would be outside when his grandparents arrived, is the one that isolated himself. [00:43:06] Speaker 1: I did not. That was not the point of finding out where Mom was. It was because the house was a mess. It wasn't, it had nothing to do with Timothy. That thought hadn't even entered my mind until I got asked about it at trial. [00:43:27] Speaker 3: You expect the judge to believe that Timothy did this to himself, correct? Can you define this? Well, that's what your testimony is, is that he isolated himself. [00:43:38] Speaker 1: I said some of the time and you said this, this. [00:43:41] Speaker 3: Okay. I'll clarify. He isolated himself in that closet? [00:43:45] Speaker 1: Some of the time. Some of the times downstairs. [00:43:47] Speaker 3: Where he had nothing but a tarp in there, he isolated himself in there. Is that your testimony? He tore apart the mattress. [00:43:55] Speaker ?: But... [00:43:56] Speaker 3: That was not an answer to my question. Some of the time. I said some of the time. Did he isolate himself in those ice baths? [00:44:04] Speaker 1: I wasn't there for that. [00:44:06] Speaker 3: But you ordered it, correct? I don't remember. You had a cell phone at the time this happened, right? Yes. And you were messaging with your other son, Paul, correct? Yes. And those messages speak for themselves, right? I'm not disputing the messages. [00:44:19] Speaker 1: I'm just telling him what I do with a woman. [00:44:24] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. Okay. [00:44:27] Speaker 3: Okay. Now, you testified earlier today that during the time after your, uh, your husband's stroke, you were, quote, barely surviving. Do you remember testifying to that? Yes. You were surviving just fine. It was Timothy that was barely surviving, correct? [00:44:46] Speaker 1: I wasn't aware enough of what was going on around me. I wasn't. Okay. [00:44:53] Speaker 3: Now, another claim in your post-conviction motion is how your attorney, Mr. Johnson, handled the surveillance video from that closet, correct? [00:45:09] Speaker 1: The motion about it, yes. Oh, yes. I know what you're talking about. Yes. [00:45:14] Speaker 3: Okay. And so you are claiming that it was ineffective or deficient of Mr. Johnson to let, um, the police officer testify to the contents of that video, correct? [00:45:26] Speaker 1: I mean, if that's what's in, I trust my attorney with that, so. [00:45:31] Speaker 3: Did you observe that video? [00:45:33] Speaker 1: No. [00:45:34] Speaker 3: You were in that video, though, to your knowledge, correct? [00:45:36] Speaker 1: As far as I know, yes. Yes. [00:45:39] Speaker 3: And that video has been described by multiple individuals as extremely graphic and haunting. Are you aware of that? [00:45:49] Speaker 1: I think I've heard that, yes. Yes. [00:45:52] Speaker 3: And that video actually, in fact, shows your son take his final breath. Are you aware of that? I did not know that. And it shows what you were doing in the time leading up to him taking that final breath. Are you aware of that? I would assume so. Are you aware that it shows you being extremely cruel to him in those moments? I don't know. You're also aware that after he's passed away, it depicts you dragging him out of that closet. [00:46:24] Speaker 1: Are you aware of that? I remember performing CPR, so I guess that was what happened before that. Okay, one sec. [00:46:56] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:46:59] Speaker 3: Are you aware that at the end of that video, after you pull him out, there's audio about telling him to stop faking it? [00:47:16] Speaker 1: I have no idea what it was. [00:47:21] Speaker 3: Are you also aware that before he passes away, you call him a dummy? [00:47:25] Speaker 1: There was something said about that at trial. We all say stupid things. [00:47:32] Speaker 3: So it's your testimony that that was just a stupid thing to say to your dying son? To insult him? It's a stupid thing to say to your child, period. Yeah, you said it, correct? [00:47:43] Speaker 1: Yes. I mean, I'm not disputing him. [00:47:48] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:47:49] Speaker 3: Do you believe that your attorney should have let the jury view that video in its entirety? No. [00:47:58] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:47:59] Speaker 3: So you think it's probably a good trial strategy to shield the jurors from seeing you on video insult your dying son, correct? Yes. Yes. It's probably a good trial strategy to not have the jurors personally witness his last breaths, correct? Yes. And it's probably a good trial strategy to not have the jurors observe you telling him he's faking it when he's already dead, correct? Yes. [00:48:33] Speaker ?: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. [00:48:36] Speaker 3: Now, it's your testimony that during the trial there was some discussion about the manslaughter instruction, correct? [00:48:55] Speaker 1: What do you mean, I'm sorry, can you retrace that? [00:48:59] Speaker 3: So, you testified on direct that when Mr. Johnson came to the jail, he was discussing jury instructions with- This hearing, yes. I'm sorry. Not this hearing. I apologize. The trial. During the trial there was a discussion that Mr. Johnson had with you about the manslaughter instruction. Yes. I'm going to ask a couple of questions that sort of dovetail off of the court's questions here, though. And I'm sorry to go backwards, but you said when you're having these disassociative episodes, you have involuntary movements. I'm sorry, it's being recorded, so is that yes? I'm sorry. And let me ask you this, was it an involuntary movement for you to grab a garbage can while you were testifying? Or was that not intentional? [00:49:57] Speaker 1: I don't know what you mean. I mean, I was going to throw up. [00:50:00] Speaker 3: Okay, so did you make the choice to extend your arms and grab it? Yeah. [00:50:06] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:50:07] Speaker 3: And did you make the choice to lean your body over? [00:50:10] Speaker ?: I don't know. [00:50:11] Speaker 1: I don't know. I was, I don't know. I mean, I was, I don't throw up, so. [00:50:17] Speaker 3: Did it happen by accident that you were positioned that way? [00:50:20] Speaker 1: I mean, no. Okay. [00:50:22] Speaker 3: Are you aware there was no vomit in that garbage can once you left the courtroom? [00:50:28] Speaker 1: I have no idea. [00:50:30] Speaker 3: It's because you faked the vomit, correct? I didn't fake anything. [00:50:33] Speaker 1: I dry heat all the time. I dry heat from motion sickness before I got the motion sickness method I used this morning for the trip over. Okay. [00:50:41] Speaker 3: Let's talk about that. So, didn't you claim at the last hearing that you had some motion sickness on the way into court? Yes, I did. And do you recall whether or not that was supported by any of your transport team? [00:50:51] Speaker 1: I remember they said that they had glanced at me in the mirror. I mean, I know I was dry heat. I didn't actually throw up anything, but that's because I didn't eat intentionally. Okay. [00:51:01] Speaker 3: So, do you remember, I believe there was some in court inquiry to your department of corrections, corrections officers. Do you remember them saying something from these students back here at the last hearing? [00:51:12] Speaker 1: I remember them talking from there, yes. [00:51:13] Speaker 3: Okay. And I believe the judge, and I don't have the transcript, but I believe the court may have even sworn them in briefly for a couple of them. One of them, yes. One of them, yes. And it was as to your claims of motion sickness or how you were feeling on the transport, correct? Okay. And there's no mention of you vomiting in that transport van, correct? No, I dried heat. I didn't have anything on my stomach too. Oh, thank you. [00:51:58] Speaker ?: I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. [00:52:04] Speaker 3: I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. [00:52:13] Speaker ?: I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. I didn't have anything on my stomach. [00:52:16] Speaker 3: Is it your testimony today that they all were lying about what happened in the jail before the Friday start of the trial? [00:52:25] Speaker 1: What do you mean? [00:52:26] Speaker 3: Well, so let's talk about it. We had multiple individuals who testified about your desire to not come to court. Correct? [00:52:35] Speaker 1: I know at least one said that, and I do remember making a comment, "I don't want to," but most of it was, "I can't." [00:52:40] Speaker 3: Okay, but you did say the words, "I don't want to." Is that a yes? Yes. Yes. [00:52:46] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:52:47] Speaker 3: And you ultimately memorialized that in an affidavit? Yes. And you don't dispute that that is something you signed, correct? No, I don't dispute that that's something. Do you remember? Actually, I'm going to strike that and let me rephrase. Ms. Kotecki testified about her observations of you that morning, correct? [00:53:13] Speaker 1: Yes, she did, although hers were different than Fred's and mine, but some of them. [00:53:23] Speaker 3: It's fair to say you have some selective memory about what you remember from that morning, correct? It's not selective at all. I still have memory issues to this day. So it's fair to say, though, you remember some of the things, enough to say Ms. Kotecki's is different than yours. [00:53:39] Speaker 1: Well, because I sat there, and I was the one that wrote the affidavit, and I sat here when Mr. Johnson said that, and officers said that I was curled into a wall on the floor, and then she said I was up in a chair, that it wasn't as bad. But he described it. I mean, the most accurate total description was what he did, what he described and the officers described. She was, hers wasn't as accurate. [00:54:02] Speaker 3: So you're saying that Mr. Johnson's description of you that morning is accurate? From what he said, as far as curled up into a wall and not able to communicate, yes. So I said yes or no. Mr. Johnson's testimony about that morning is accurate. [00:54:17] Speaker 1: As far as I remember with the, I mean... [00:54:21] Speaker 3: Yes or no? Yes. Okay, thank you. I have nothing further. [00:54:26] Speaker 2: All right, Mr. Andrews. Are you saying all of Mr. Johnson's testimony was accurate? Absolutely not. Okay. It might be close. All right. You were seen by a number of professionals, correct? Yes, sir. And one of those professionals is Dr. Collentine, is that correct? Yes, sir. And the prosecution mentioned that on page 10 there is a conclusion part and you testified as to that, is that correct? Yes, sir. The ultimate conclusion on page 11 of that Dr. Collentine report, can you read that, the highlighted portion? [00:55:09] Speaker 1: Yes, sir. After reviewing the text messages from Ms. Vander Ark and the police report, Ms. Vander Ark continues to insist that she did nothing wrong and was not convinced that her actions and instructions caused the death of her son. This clinician is of the opinion that Ms. Vander Ark truly believes that her actions were appropriate and not harmful. Okay. [00:55:28] Speaker 2: And this is a report that Mr. Johnson gave you? Yes. [00:55:31] Speaker ?: And you talked about this with Mr. Johnson. [00:55:32] Speaker 2: I don't remember how much we talked about that. Okay. As far as you, you're aware that you've always expressed your innocence to Mr. Johnson. Absolutely. You never, did you ever concede or ask him to concede to anything? Absolutely. All right. Now after day three, after your testimony, were you seen by any medical personnel? No. No. No. Thank you. I have some questions. Ms. Vander Ark, I think you testified, giving your testimony for Mr. Ambrose is that you, said on day one, Mr. Johnson told you that you had the testimony. [00:56:15] Speaker 5: Is that true? No, I said I knew I had to testify. So you knew you had to testify. Yes, sir. Okay. And did that conclusion come from the conversation between the two of you, or was that something that you already had concluded in your mind even before you had the testimony? Yes, sir. [00:56:35] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:56:36] Speaker 5: And did that conclusion come from the conversation between the two of you, or was that something that you already had concluded in your mind even before you talked to him? I think it was mostly I had concluded. [00:56:48] Speaker 1: I mean, we discussed it, but I kind of knew that from the first time. [00:56:53] Speaker 5: So you knew it. So you're telling me this idea of you testifying came independently even before you had spoken to Mr. Johnson? Yes, sir. Okay. And then did Mr. Johnson discourage that idea? Did he encourage that idea? [00:57:08] Speaker 1: He agreed with me the whole way. We talked about that multiple times and the whole process. And we always said I had to testify. Okay. [00:57:16] Speaker 5: There was no question. You said that Mr. Johnson, the discussions between the two of you had largely centered around that the prosecution had to prove intentional acts. Is that true? For the child abuse charges. Okay. Intentional anointment. Intentional anointment. Okay. And then you said you two agreed that based on what you were telling him that intentional and knowingly had not occurred. That's correct. Okay. Was there ever discussion after that about, well, it's potentially there could be a negligence argument here? No. Never talked about negligence. Never. Okay. You had indicated that you saw Mr. Johnson, you said around two to three times during that first month after you were arrested and taken to the jail. Is that correct? Okay. After that, you used the phrase, I saw him once in a blue room. Can you give me an approximation of how often you believe you saw him going forward once a month, twice a month? [00:58:26] Speaker 4: It wasn't. It wasn't. I think when he testified, he said once every other month. I don't feel like it was even that often. Okay. So what's your independent memory of how often you came? I would say once every two months. [00:58:37] Speaker 5: Once every few months? Yes. You mean three months? At least three, yes sir. So once every three months. [00:58:42] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:58:43] Speaker 5: All right. Did that frequency increase as the trial approached? I don't feel like it did. [00:58:50] Speaker 1: I mean, there was a couple at the end that were closer together. [00:58:53] Speaker 5: Okay. But -- The month before the trial, can you tell me how many times you remember him visiting you? [00:59:05] Speaker 1: There was two actual visits and then we came in here for 20 minutes. Okay. [00:59:10] Speaker 5: I want to -- and I want to make sure, just I should have prefaced what I was saying. When we're talking about Mr. Johnson, I mean himself. Yes. Not any other member of his team. No. Okay. So those that you were testified to was Mr. Johnson himself. Is that correct? Okay. Were there any other members of his quote unquote team that had come and talked to outside of those times that Mr. Johnson had come individually? So separate from Mr. Johnson. Oh. You mean just before trial or what do you mean? No. Well, let's start -- let's start. You said two or three times Mr. Johnson the first month. Was there anybody else from his quote unquote -- let me go back. What did you know of his team? What did you -- you consider his team to be? [00:59:55] Speaker 1: I knew he had some interns. He had the original social worker. I don't remember her name. I'm sorry. I'm bad with him. So social worker? She came in once a week to the jail for a while. Okay. Once a week. Okay. And then that was it. We came in for a hearing. I think it was to -- something about competency. And Nick Goings was there. Okay. So I knew he was on the team. And then both the social worker and Fred had mentioned a research attorney. [01:00:21] Speaker 5: Okay. And did you meet the research attorney? Mm-hmm. Okay. So you believe two interns, research attorney, at least one other attorney, Mr. Goings, and you believe -- you believe he was an attorney, correct? Yes. Oh, I knew he was. And Mr. Johnson, is there any -- and social worker, was there anybody else that you knew of was on this team? Not specifically. [01:00:43] Speaker 1: Okay. I mean, he would say he had people working with us. [01:00:46] Speaker 5: All right. And you're saying the social worker came in every week? For a while. Before that one left. She left the public defense office. Okay. Did you know approximately when she stopped coming to see you? Okay. Sorry. That's okay. And then when a new one took over, did that same -- did that social worker come? I saw her twice, I think. Twice? Before trial. Okay. All right. In terms of the interns, how often did you see an intern? [01:01:11] Speaker 1: They actually did not come when he had said they would. They never came? No. One came with him. It was the same one a couple of times. Okay. Two or three times. He was there at the end. She sat in on the trial, too. [01:01:22] Speaker 5: So did the intern ever come independently of Mr. Johnson? No. No. Okay. Okay. [01:01:29] Speaker ?: Okay. I've read your affidavit. [01:01:31] Speaker 5: One of the arguments advanced by your attorney and you in the affidavit was that Mr. Johnson did not argue what you felt -- well, let me ask you a question. The dehydration argument, was that, to you, shouldn't have been the primary argument? [01:02:00] Speaker 1: I did not know that -- even know about that until the medical exam was testified. Okay. So when I realized that, I asked him to ask about it. But I think he only asked one question and that was it. I didn't even know about that until that day. [01:02:15] Speaker 5: Okay. In your affidavit, it says -- and this is one of the paragraphs -- this is -- page 11. It says, the medical examiner stated that one of the main causes of death was dehydration. It says, I specifically asked Mr. Johnson to examine this much deeper. There was no accusation against me regarding the crime of the Timothy of Water. This alone could have raised a reasonable vow that Mr. Johnson never pursued this subject at all. When you make the statement, I specifically asked Mr. Johnson to examine this much deeper. Was this before the trial or was this after you heard the medical examiner testified? This was after I heard the medical examiner testified. Okay. So it's your testimony. And when you said, you asked Mr. Johnson to examine this much deeper. Was that during a break after that he had testified? No, it was in the middle of it. I wrote him an O. Oh, you wrote him an O? Yes. [01:03:10] Speaker 1: Could you recall what the note said? I put dehydration question mark exclamation point. And I said, please ask more about this because he had access to water. [01:03:20] Speaker 5: Yes, sir. Okay. And it's your testimony that he did not? No. Okay. [01:03:26] Speaker ?: Um. [01:03:27] Speaker 5: All right. I don't want to go too much into what could have or should have. Did Timothy have access to water? Yes, he did. Okay. Was he cognitively capable of getting water on his own? [01:03:46] Speaker 1: Yes. That's -- he was on the spectrum. But the only symptom he really showed was awkwardness. He was grade level. He was passing on classes. Um. And, you know, he could -- he did interact with some people at little man's baseball games. Um. But he just was awkward. He didn't want to hang out around other kids. Um. He was 15. He was, you know, you try to hug him. He's like, Mom, go away. Um. But, no, he could communicate just fine. Trust me. [01:04:14] Speaker 5: So, and I just want to be clear what you believe the argument that should have been made. You believe the argument that should have been advanced from the jury was that Timothy caused his own death by not drinking water. [01:04:25] Speaker 4: I mean, I think that something should have come up. There was -- and I just told him -- Hold on. [01:04:33] Speaker 5: Is that the argument? Is that the argument that you believe should have been advanced from the jury? That Timothy caused his own death because he stopped drinking water? I think it should have been mentioned, yes. [01:04:42] Speaker 1: He had suicidal stuff before I got him. So -- [01:04:45] Speaker 5: He had suicidal stuff? [01:04:46] Speaker 1: Yeah. He was actually hospitalized for suicidal ideation. [01:04:49] Speaker 5: His step-mom told me that. Okay. So you believe that an argument should have been made that Timothy essentially consciously caused his own death? He was suicidal and committed suicide. I mean, I don't know what happened. So -- Well, I know. I understand that. But I'm trying -- Yeah. Okay. All right. I understand. Okay. Um. Did your concerns with Mr. Johnson's representation -- did those arise prior to the trial? [01:05:31] Speaker 1: I was worried about it along the way, yes. Okay. [01:05:34] Speaker 5: Um. Did you ever attempt to bring those concerns -- you know, bring those concerns to the court's attention? No. [01:05:44] Speaker 1: I wasn't in good shape. Remember, I -- at the time I was isolated. I wasn't eating. I wasn't sleeping. Okay. I was not in good shape. [01:05:51] Speaker 5: Did -- you had the ability to write letters, correct? [01:05:54] Speaker 1: Yes, but I didn't have any -- I mean, for the most part -- at first I had a little bit of money on my account, but I didn't have any -- [01:06:00] Speaker 4: Well, you can write cuts, correct? Yes. Those are free, correct? [01:06:04] Speaker 5: Yeah, you can write them. They go to your attorney. Were you aware that you could send one to the court? [01:06:09] Speaker 1: No. [01:06:10] Speaker 5: Okay. Now, you were in court a couple of times before trial, is that correct? Yes. All right. Is there a reason you did not bring that issue to the court at the time of those hearings? [01:06:21] Speaker 1: I didn't want to speak out of turn. I mean, I wasn't thinking about it right then, but I just -- you know, those hearings were for certain purposes. [01:06:28] Speaker 5: So, you didn't feel that you could directly bring those to the court? Yes. All right. Just below that paragraph on page 11, it says, "I testified for around five hours of the Thursday of trial. I was supposed to finish my testimony on Friday, including some very important questions that I wanted Mr. Johnson to ask me before I finish testifying." Do you recall what those questions were? [01:07:05] Speaker 1: For the most part, no. I remember one of them, because I lost -- I lose weight really fast. And so, you know, I know there were some questions about Timothy's size along the way. And then we also talked -- because Paul was -- he's 6'1" and was like 130 pounds. And I'm small. And I was going to have to ask me about how quickly I lose weight. Because if I don't eat for a day, I'll lose a couple pounds that fast. So, I wanted him to bring that up. [01:07:33] Speaker 5: So, you wanted me to ask how quickly you lose weight? Yeah. Okay. [01:07:39] Speaker 1: Well, family genetics. I mean, my mom did the same thing. Okay. [01:07:42] Speaker 5: Now, any other questions that you could recall? [01:07:45] Speaker 1: Not that I remember, no. Okay. I didn't have a pen or paper to write them down. I didn't have that available. When they put me down in the holding cell, what paper I had, where I was at, I didn't have access to it. [01:07:57] Speaker 5: Okay. So, these questions that you had counted, those were -- I'm trying to figure out when, you know, when you formed those questions in your mind. Was that on Thursday or was that on Friday? [01:08:12] Speaker 1: Thursday afternoon. Thursday afternoon. [01:08:14] Speaker 5: Thursday afternoon. Thursday evening, yeah. Thursday evening, yeah. [01:08:17] Speaker ?: Thursday evening, okay. [01:08:19] Speaker 5: Friday afternoon. So, at the time that these questions were formed, were you suffering from a panic attack? No, it was after that. [01:08:24] Speaker 1: Okay. [01:08:25] Speaker 5: Friday morning, did you form in any additional questions? Not that I remember. [01:08:30] Speaker 1: Okay. [01:08:31] Speaker 5: The -- I want to know what -- there's a lot of in your affidavits about what was going on in the holding cell. And then, if you curl up into a ball, you're barely able to communicate. You asked Mr. Johnson to postpone the trial, and you were called his -- responsible. Yes. I want to know, do you independently remember that, or is that -- your affidavit, is that based on what someone else told you happened? [01:09:07] Speaker 1: No, I remember that small portion of it. I remember bits and pieces, because I remember other parts of the morning as well, but that's it. Okay. So -- I remember laying there. I was curled up. Because he testified that he had explained options to me, and he did not. I asked at least two or three times to adjourn, because I couldn't do it. And he said that, you know, it's just going to be the same, and they just go on without me. [01:09:32] Speaker 4: Okay. [01:09:33] Speaker 5: So those things you can remember, but other things you don't remember. Correct? Yes. So when during these panic attacks, it sounds like you have -- if I say lucidity, you know what that means? Yes. Okay. So you're saying during these panic attacks, there are brief moments of lucidity during these panic attacks, where you remember, where you can cognitively understand what people are saying. [01:09:57] Speaker 1: Not usually during panic attacks. It wasn't one solid panic attack. It was multiple panic attacks at work, but there were times where it wasn't actually in the middle of a panic attack. [01:10:04] Speaker 5: So you're saying that these, what you recall intently, are these communications, because when you were not suffering a panic attack. Yes. So the recollections that you have are from non-panic attack instances. Right. [01:10:22] Speaker ?: Some of the questions I have, please interrupt. Any follow-up Mr. Ambrose to those questions? [01:10:22] Speaker 5: Mr. Ambrose? [01:10:23] Speaker ?: Yes. Mr. Ambrose. Yes. Uh, as far as you're aware, when was the last time, um, that either you or Paul, um, um, provided food to them? I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. [01:10:40] Speaker 6: I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. [01:10:47] Speaker ?: I would say it was the day before. [01:10:48] Speaker 6: I would say it was the day before. [01:10:49] Speaker 2: I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. [01:10:58] Speaker ?: I would say it was the day before. [01:10:59] Speaker 1: I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before he passed. I think Paul said he had given himself food. Okay. All right. [01:11:05] Speaker ?: I would say it was the day before he passed. [01:11:06] Speaker 2: I would say it was the day before. I would say it was the day before he passed. [01:11:08] Speaker 1: I think Paul said he had given himself food. Okay. All right. [01:11:11] Speaker ?: I would say it was the day before he passed. [01:11:12] Speaker 3: So, Ms. Vander, it's your testimony that Mr. Johnson should have probed dehydration, correct? Yes. He knew about it the whole time and never understood what he told me. Well, you in fact knew about it too, correct? What do you mean? Well, let's go back. Were you at your preliminary examination? Yes. You attended it? Yes. And do you remember the testimony of Dr. Joyce DeYoung? [01:11:37] Speaker 1: At the preliminary? The medical examiner? [01:11:41] Speaker 3: The medical examiner. [01:11:42] Speaker 1: I don't remember her testifying. [01:11:44] Speaker 3: Do you have any reason to contest the certified transcript of the preliminary examination? [01:11:48] Speaker 1: No. [01:11:49] Speaker 3: And in fact, on page 87 of your preliminary examination, the forensic pathologist testified his cause of death was dehydration and extreme emaciation due to malnutrition and starvation. Any reason to contest that? [01:12:05] Speaker 1: No. I don't even remember her testifying. [01:12:10] Speaker 3: Now, there was also, I'm sorry, I cut her testimony off short though, but a significant contributing factor of exogenous hypothermia. So, exposure to cold, end quote. Any reason to contest that? No. She's the medical expert. the reason he had hypothermia is because he was in water for hours before his death correct that's not what paul told me paul had i didn't ask you what paul told you the evidence showed that timothy was in an ice pack for hours before his death correct [01:12:48] Speaker 1: not the whole time because we didn't have enough ice for that okay well let's go to this you had [01:12:55] Speaker 3: an ice maker on your counter at the house correct yes and that ice maker was used to put ice cubes into a bath correct yes and you were aware of that yes and ice is technically water correct yes and bathtub water is water correct yes so yes it's fair to say you did not restrict his access to [01:13:18] Speaker 1: water when you ordered ice baths correct i'll go with it that's a really weird question [01:13:25] Speaker 3: well okay you weren't keeping him dry by ordering ice baths for him correct [01:13:31] Speaker 1: that's a really weird question well ma'am you are saying that timothy committed suicide by not drinking water i didn't say that i said it was possible and it should have been that it should have been explored because of his previous history well do you understand that if it had been explored [01:13:49] Speaker 3: that there'd be further questions about the ice baths i don't know because naturally a bath contains water yes which was a punishment that you ordered for your son correct correct once or twice yes now you also said that uh your attorney asked you when was the last time timothy was provided food do you recall that yes do you recall uh having conversations about putting food in front of his face and pulling it away no i don't but you have no reason to contest those text messages correct i'm sorry let me finish my question before you answer okay you have no reason to contest those text messages correct correct and so if they say that you said to essentially tease your starving son with a pizza roll that paul should do it if that's what it said you also ordered that he uh be provided hot sauce correct yes okay is that the food you're talking about with your attorney saying you provided food no not as far as i know he also ordered that he had pot sauce placed on his genitals correct that's what the text message says is that the food that you say you provided to him before his death no now the medical examiner didn't determine that your son died from suicide correct that's correct but now you're here telling the court that he was suicidal i didn't say for sure he was i said it never got raised well you sort of raised it in that video that you said that your attorney should have played correct what do you mean i raised it in the video on the morning of tim on the morning you discovered timothy was non-responsive in that closet okay you following along with me so that morning when you discover he's non-responsive in the closet you have discussions with paul about telling authorities that timothy was on a hunger strike correct i'm not disputing it did you in fact tell paul that we need to say he's on a [01:16:18] Speaker 1: hunger strike i don't remember if that's what was in there then i'm not contesting it but i don't know i don't remember [01:16:25] Speaker 3: and now you're saying he was on a drinking strike too correct i'm saying it should have been explored [01:16:31] Speaker 1: there's a big difference [01:16:38] Speaker 3: this is just another scheme of yours to try to blame timothy for his own death isn't it not at all there is no scheme okay maybe not the right word your testimony is blaming timothy for his [01:16:50] Speaker 1: own death correct blaming anybody i'm saying there's possibilities it should have been raised well [01:16:55] Speaker 3: you're saying he was suicidal so you're saying he was suicidal i don't know i never even thought [01:17:00] Speaker 1: about the possibility until i that that morning in court because i don't i honestly do not remember the medical examiner testifying it frequently i don't you didn't think about the possibility until [01:17:10] Speaker 3: you were trying to find out a way to blame mr johnson to get into trial is that correct no that's not i'm sure i have nothing either have you seen the uh death certificate yes i didn't see it till that [01:17:28] Speaker 2: until when until the last or the morning i testified okay um do you recall what the first thing that is listed on this death certificate it's dehydration all right and that's kind of strange right it's really odd because he's in the ice bath right and he has access to water right yes and so he didn't he didn't drink he never prevented him from drinking all right no further questions