HEARING: ICE Whistleblower Testifies Before Congressional Dems About 'Defective' Training

[0:00] I want to express my thanks to witnesses today for their courage and strength in coming forward, [0:10] most particularly to the whistleblower who is with us today, Ryan Schwenk, who has a distinguished [0:21] career even before working for ICE. And I hope that his example of courage and strength will [0:31] inspire others to do the same, to come forward and speak truth to power. That is an overused term, [0:39] but it is actually very true as applied to what he is doing today. [0:47] The truth is that ICE and DHS have deliberately and purposely trained their agents to break the [0:59] law. I am shocked as I say those words, but they are the truth. ICE has trained [1:08] officers of the United States government to disregard the Constitution and violate [1:16] people's fundamental rights, breaking down doors, detaining them with mass sweeps, engaging in [1:26] brutal and violent conduct that directly contravene our laws. Their training has been truncated and [1:36] practical tests have been eliminated, reducing them from 25 to 9. But the training has been [1:46] done to the extent that it has been necessary to break down people's doors and violate their rights. [1:58] People should be shocked and horrified by what they will hear today, and so should my colleagues, [2:07] so much so that I am hoping we will have bipartisan support for fundamental and far-reaching reform, [2:13] that this hearing will be an impetus, among others that we are having, toward reforming ICE, [2:21] in a root-and-branch way, not just cosmetically, but fundamentally, so that the kind of misconduct [2:36] that we are seeing in America's communities and streets will be stopped. [2:42] This training to break the law is not a thing of the past. It's ongoing. It is not accidental. [2:53] It is purposeful and deliberate. It is not only sanctioned, but it is ordered at the [2:59] very top. [3:00] It is a memo that explicitly states ICE policy, and Mr. Schwenk will testify about it. [3:13] It is not a momentary lapse. It is not isolated misconduct. It is purposeful and intentional [3:23] instruction and teaching about breaking the law. [3:28] The truth that we will hear today completely discredits statements and testimony, some [3:33] under oath, by DHS officials. [3:35] and we will see and hear evidence today, both in documents such as these and in testimony [3:42] in the documents we are releasing and testimony from Mr. Schwenk, about [3:51] the acceptable training of ICE agents and deliberate concealment of ILLEGAL ICE POLICIES, [3:59] directly refuting sworn testimonies of acting Director Lyons and other above-a-level administration [4:04] officials. [4:06] I'm looking at myengers on theooked-off of this emotion, a zoom session of the nation's [4:07] things, none other than theülителя Frei Mathias von Braun separatedhinsprung of allows [4:08] copyright infringement. [4:09] To invincible non483 .ирowsrelatedinight.lightname It is not only nein vertical policy goals, [4:09] 然後 fellow program swamped using the NRA EU special call center and futures by the IAA Commission [4:09] and incompetence, but intentional calculated action that accompanied the brutal violence [4:16] and violation of rights that we have seen on the streets. A lot of people are wondering [4:22] how could this kind of brutality and violence happen at the hands of government officials [4:31] in America if they had the right training and the right people? And the answer is they had the wrong [4:40] training and, in many instances, the wrong people. The numbers of people have skyrocketed [4:45] from 500 a year to more than 3,500, and the training has been truncated and reduced both [5:01] in numbers of courses and substantive policy. Two weeks ago, the head of ICE sat before members of [5:08] Congress and promised that no cuts have been made to the content of officer training. He claimed [5:15] that he was not going to be able to do that. He said, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to [5:16] do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going [5:16] to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. [5:17] But fewer days of training are being made up for with extra hours every day. But, [5:22] as Mr. Strang will share, this contention is simply not true. [5:28] The same head of ICE who contended incorrectly about officer training also testified about the [5:35] memorandum in which he announced the administration's new policy to invade American homes based on [5:43] a permission slip signed by his own employees in violation of the Constitution which was distributed [5:50] to all ICE personnel. When I asked for the email distributing that memo, he assured me that ICE [5:57] would produce it. They still haven't responded because the email doesn't exist. Clearly, that [6:09] claim was untrue as well. Today, we're also going to hear about the brutal reality of policies that [6:18] the Trump administration works so hard to keep secret. Anna Gibson Brown, who is with us today, [6:27] experienced the reality of that policy on January 11th of this year. She's here today to share her [6:33] story of her home being violently invaded and her husband being taken without a judicial warrant [6:40] in one of the most egregious violations of the Constitution I have seen in America. For centuries, [6:50] our government and our courts have recognized the sanctity of people's homes. John Adams believed [6:57] that Britain's warrantless entry into American homes, [7:00] their breaking down doors and forcibly entering people's houses, was the spark for the American [7:08] Revolution 250 years ago. The hurt and harm caused to Ms. Gibson Brown and other victims of this law [7:18] breaking will be deep and enduring. But perhaps most troubling, Ms. Gibson Brown, is that what [7:29] happened to you was not some isolated mistake or accident. It was the result of a strategy, [7:40] a conscious and deliberate purposeful strategy taught to agents carefully with a memorandum that [7:50] was shown to Mr. Schwenk when he was told what to train them about breaking the law and violating [7:58] your rights. That is unconscionable. I want to finish by saying that I am hopeful that Mr. [8:11] Schwenk's example of courage will inspire others to come forward. It has already inspired, [8:20] I think, us on this committee, and I think that the example of others before him is perhaps [8:27] one of the reasons why he is here. We need more protection for whistleblowers. We need [8:33] reforms, fundamental and far-reaching, of ICE and DHS. We need America to be as shocked [8:42] and horrified by what we see here as they should be, because that is the way we will [8:49] inspire bipartisan reform, and it must be bipartisan. I hope my Republican colleagues [8:54] will take note. [8:56] And join us in welcoming whistleblowers and their speaking the truth, truly speaking the [9:04] truth to power. With that, Representative Garcia. [9:09] Thank you, Senator Blumenthal. And I want to, of course, thank you again for your leadership and [9:13] for partnering with the oversight committee in the House to really spotlight all the [9:19] horrors that are happening across the country. We, of course, this is our third hearing on DHS [9:25] and ICE. We've taken testimony. We've heard important stories. [9:29] We've talked about the misconduct and, quite frankly, the crimes of this administration. [9:33] Now, at our first hearing, we documented how Secretary Noem has been lying when she has [9:39] talked about not arresting American citizens or detaining U.S. citizens. At our second [9:44] hearing, we talked about immigration enforcement and how agents have been brutalizing, blinding, [9:51] beating and killing Americans and others on the ground. [9:55] And oversight Democrats and our Senate partners have been fighting for accountability for [9:58] truth. [9:59] And for the rights of all people. Now, we have documented horrific and terrible violence by this [10:03] administration and will continue to do so. Now, ICE and DHS are operating like Donald Trump's [10:09] personal and private military force. They're attacking communities. They're targeting people [10:14] who are exercising their constitutional rights. And the results, of course, [10:19] are all around us. We've heard testimony from teachers, from veterans, [10:23] from people on the ground who have been arrested, shot or attacked with zero justification. [10:29] Now, as of February of this year, oversight Democrats have documented over 530 credible and [10:36] verified instances of possible abuses and misconduct by President Trump's federal immigration agents, [10:43] including 224 incidents just with use of force. This is chaos that's been unleashed across the [10:50] country. It's not just what we have seen, of course, in Minnesota, but everywhere in my home [10:54] state of California, Chicago and places across the country. Now, as we look here today, we're going to [11:00] look at what ICE agents have been ordered to disregard the Constitution and to violate the [11:05] rights of American citizens and immigrants in this country. And we all understand why the Fourth [11:10] Amendment is so important and why the Constitution is also so clear. Now, when you look at the Fourth [11:17] Amendment, the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects [11:24] against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated and no warrants shall issue [11:31] but upon probable cause supported by oath or affirmation and particularly describing the [11:36] place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized. Now, what's the most important here [11:42] is the amendment specifies people, not just United States citizens, but all people for a specific [11:50] reason. And that's been so important to our founders, to the Constitution, and for so many [11:56] of us that all people are protected. Now, Donald Trump cannot leave the United States without a [12:01] legal warrant. He can legally send his private police force to smash down your door and take [12:06] you away or to enter your house without a legal warrant. Right now, the Trump administration is [12:12] trying to take away that right. Instead of getting a warrant approved by an independent judge, [12:18] under his worldview, he believes it's his right to go into any house in any city and do what he [12:25] pleases. ICE wants to write its own permission slip without a judge to break down your door [12:31] and to violate your rights. Now, what's the most important thing about the Fourth Amendment? [12:32] What's the most important thing about the Fourth Amendment? What's the most important thing about [12:32] the Fourth Amendment? What's the most important thing about the Fourth Amendment? What's the most important thing [12:32] about the Fourth Amendment? What's the most important thing about the Fourth Amendment? Where are [12:33] all the rights? And this should terrify everyone. The same people overseeing and spreading violence [12:38] and chaos right now are avoiding the Constitution, are breaking down doors, are causing harm, [12:46] and in some cases, even back in my home state of California, we've seen [12:50] video footage of agents going to homes without warrants and terrorizing communities. Now, [12:58] oversight of course is critical, and the administration knows that they are being watched [13:04] We're forcing them every single day to re-evaluate their positions and to [13:11] ensure that we're pushing the courts to do the right thing. Now just at our last [13:15] hearing, Fox News went absolutely crazy because they got upset that we called [13:21] out Stephen Miller. In fact, we used this image of Stephen Miller to emphasize the [13:26] terror that he was causing. In fact, Jesse Waters and other Fox News [13:33] podcasters and right-wing media personalities get upset every time that [13:37] we call out Stephen Miller. Let's be very clear, this is one of the most dangerous [13:42] men in the administration as it relates to violations of the Constitution. He is [13:47] terrorizing communities, he is sending ICE out across this country, and he's [13:51] willing to destroy the law and our Constitution so that he can move forward [13:55] with his own bigoted worldview of how he views our country. And he is accused not [14:03] just Democrats but all Americans, and he is accused not just Democrats, but all [14:04] but folks across this country, of putting immigrants ahead of American citizens. [14:10] And that is a flat-out lie. [14:13] We've heard testimony over and over again from American citizens. [14:18] War veterans like George Retez, who was arrested just going to work. [14:22] Teachers like Miramar Martinez, who was shot five times and had seven bullets put in her. [14:28] It went in and out of her body by her own government. [14:31] We had agents that bragged about shooting U.S. citizens to their friends in other agencies. [14:40] We've heard about testimony from Rene Good's brothers about Americans across the country who have been impacted, [14:46] like themselves, who lost their own sister because a DHS officer shot her dead without justification. [14:54] And we heard testimony today from Tayana Gibson Brown, a citizen and a health care worker, [14:59] whose home was sworn by federal law. [15:01] She was arrested on the day of her arrest, and she was arrested on the day of her arrest. [15:05] She was arrested on the day of her arrest, and she was arrested on the day of her arrest. [15:08] We're looking out for the Constitution and the rule of law, [15:11] and Stephen Miller, Kristi Noem, and Donald Trump are not going to stop that work. [15:17] Thank you, Senator Blumenthal, and I yield back. [15:22] Thank you, Congressman Garcia. [15:25] I'm going to introduce the witnesses and then call on them for your testimony. [15:30] Tayana Gibson Brown is a United States citizen and resident of Minneapolis. [15:38] In January, federal immigration agents raided her home, her family's home, [15:45] and took her husband without a judicial warrant. [15:50] Eric Schwank was formerly an assistant chief counsel with ICE. [15:57] From September of last year until earlier this month, he served as a trainer for ICE. [16:04] He dealt with recruits at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glencoe, Georgia. [16:10] Steve Burnell is a former general counsel. [16:15] He served as a chief of the Department of Homeland Security and a former chief of the criminal division [16:19] at the United States Attorney's Office in the District of Columbia, [16:25] a distinguished, long-standing prosecutor. [16:28] We welcome all of you, and Ms. Gibson-Brown, if you would please begin your testimony. [16:35] I'd like to start by saying thank you for the invite to be here to tell my story. [16:42] I would also like to start by saying 12-29 was the date, my hope, that I would be able to tell my story. [16:46] I would also like to start by saying 12-29 was the date, my hope, that I would be able to tell my story. [16:50] I would also like to start by saying 12-29 was the date, my hope, that I would be able to tell my story. [16:51] When my husband checked in with ICE, he had another appointment on January 26th. [16:59] This all happened on my oldest son's birthday. [17:02] My name is Tiana Gibson-Brown, and today I stand before you not just to speak but to bear witness. [17:10] I am here to share a deeply personal and painful experience, how me and my family's 4th amendment were violated. [17:17] Most days when I get off of my night shifts, the mornings have a usual routine. [17:22] Most days when I get off of my night shifts, the mornings have a usual routine. [17:23] Most days when I get off of my night shifts, the mornings have a usual routine. [17:24] for me i know what to expect and i expected the same routine of my morning on january 11th [17:31] i got off of work around 7 30 a.m got home and went to sleep at around 8 30 except on this day [17:40] i was woken up to my husband garrison william gibson brown at around 9 30 a.m telling me that [17:46] ice was outside of our home banging at the door the second i woke up i could tell how terrified [17:54] my husband was this fear intensified when the constant banking at the door woke our [17:59] nine-year-old daughter miss anna up and from there the fear only intensified garrison went [18:09] to the door and asked the officers through the closed door about why they were at our home [18:16] followed with this he asked them if they had a warrant the officers at the door told garrison [18:23] that they did have a warrant and it was signed by a judge when garrison asked to see the warrant [18:31] the officer simply ignored his request although my husband and i may not be experts [18:37] in the legality of some situations we are aware of the fundamentals and understood how the fourth [18:44] amendment shielded us from arbitrary government searches and seizures given this my husband [18:50] repeatedly requested to see the warrant the circumstances outside of our home only intensified [18:59] we knew our rights though [19:01] we knew no one in this situation would be allowed to get in with us [19:02] we knew no one in this situation would be allowed to get in with us [19:02] one could just barge into our homes without a warrant because this space was ours. The officers [19:10] started surrounding our property. Our neighbors and other protesters started gathering around [19:15] demanding that the officers leave. There was patent fear that filled our home although me [19:21] and Garrison tried to calm ourselves down knowing that no matter what our constitutional rights [19:27] could not be breached by authorities that claim to be law enforcing bodies themselves. In no time [19:33] the scene only became more violent. Officers from the truck started shooting pepper spray at the [19:39] protesters. I'm at all of this but 10 officers approached my front door. They looked like SWAT [19:48] agents holding each other's shoulders like a barricade. One of them grabbed a protester that [19:55] was in the front of my yard from the front of his neck and the back of his head and slung him in the [20:02] icy ground. The officers walked up to my front door and said, [20:06] they hit the door three times until the door popped open. My stomach fell. I heard the door pop [20:15] and I realized we were no longer protected. Far away from ever experiencing anything like this. [20:23] We've never known anything of the sort. The officers stood at the door and they were pointing [20:28] their guns at us. 10 officers that were all armed were standing in front of me and my family. Words [20:35] can never be sufficient for me to portray what sorts of horror this was. I'm at all of this but [20:40] we felt in this moment. I stood between the officers and garrison and I asked the officers [20:47] yet again to show me the warrant. Despite all of this, they did not show me anything. My daughter [20:53] and my little cousin, both children, were rushed in the room by my sister and were told to hide in [20:59] the closet. The fear in my daughter's eyes is something you can't imagine. Thank you. Thank you [21:11] very much. Mr. Schwein. Thank you, Senator. Thank you, Senator Blumenthal, Representative Garcia, [21:27] members of the committee. [21:28] My name is Ryan Schwenk. I swore an oath to uphold the Constitution when I joined ICE on August 1st, 2021, as an Assistant Chief Counsel. [21:41] I followed that oath for four and a half years, working side by side with ICE officers, and I followed it when I resigned on February 13th, 2026, a little over a week ago, so that I could speak to you today. [21:56] I am here because I am duty-bound to report the legally required training program at the ICE Academy is deficient, defective, and broken. [22:11] Five months ago, I was asked to teach the law to new cadets at the ICE Academy in Glencoe, Georgia, where ICE is training its new, inexperienced recruits. [22:21] I volunteered, those without law enforcement training, I volunteered to take on this assignment based on my experience in law enforcement oversight, [22:32] including at the state and local level. [22:33] prior to my work with ICE. [22:36] On my first day, I received secretive orders to teach new cadets to violate the Constitution by entering homes without a judicial warrant. [22:47] For the last five months, I watched ICE dismantle the training program, cutting 240 hours of vital classes from a 584-hour program. [22:58] Classes that teach the Constitution, our legal system, firearms training, the use of force, lawful arrests, [23:08] proper discipline, and the right to life. [23:08] These are also drivers for the new cadets to communicate clearly, how they interpret what they have been taught, and in which way they understand what they are speaking about. [23:09] Based on the rules of the law, I am required to teach new cadets about the limits and limits of the officer's authority. [23:12] For example, they sea based all of the legal instructions regarding use of force. [23:19] This means that cadets are not taught what it means to be objectively reasonable. [23:24] The very standard which the law requires them to meet when deciding whether or not to use deadly force. [23:31] Our jobs as instructors are to teach them so well that they can make split second decisions about what they can and cannot do in life or death situations. [23:41] Yet, in the name of churning out an endless stream of officers, DHS leadership has dismantled [23:47] the academic and practical tests that we need to know if cadets can safely and lawfully [23:54] perform their job. [23:57] All to satisfy an administration demanding they train thousands of new officers before [24:02] the end of the year. [24:05] DHS told the public that new cadets receive all the training they need to perform their [24:10] duties, that no critical material or standards have been cut. [24:16] This is a lie. [24:19] ICE made the program shorter, and they removed so many essential parts that what remains [24:25] is a dangerous husk. [24:27] No reasonable person would believe a training program suddenly cut nearly in half could [24:33] meet the minimum legal requirements. [24:36] These aren't abstract rules. [24:37] They're required in regulations such as HCFR 287 . [24:42] Congress requires immigration. [24:44] Ice is joining affairs to find officers who have meets minimum standards for a reason. [24:50] ICE cannot lawfully perform their duties, make arrests, carry weapons, and use force [24:56] without passing appropriate training. [24:59] New cadets are graduating from the academy despite widespread concerns among training [25:04] staff that even in the final days of training the cadets cannot demonstrate a solid grasp [25:10] of the tactics or the law required to perform their jobs. [25:14] Without reform, ICE will graduate thousands. [25:17] of new officers who do not know their constitutional duty do not know the limits of [25:23] their authority and who do not have the training to recognize an unlawful order that should scare [25:29] everyone dhs assures the public these cadets can get the job training on compensate for anything [25:35] missing at the academy this is a lie many graduates go to their home office just long enough [25:42] to get their gun their badge and their body armor before deploying to places like minneapolis and [25:48] other ice operations with minimal supervision it's shocking that anyone would think this is [25:54] safe or responsible and this pattern of lies is not isolated it extends beyond the training [26:00] program to include deceiving congress and the public about the rules followed by ice officers [26:04] once they graduate on my first day at the academy i was instructed to read and return a memo in my [26:11] supervisor's presence which claimed ice officers could enter homes without a judicial warrant [26:17] the acting ice director authorized the very conduct that dhs [26:21] in its own 2025 legal training materials had called the chief evil against which the wording [26:27] of the fourth amendment is directed that is physical entry of the home without consent [26:33] or a proper warrant never in my career had i ever received such a blatantly unlawful order [26:40] nor one conveyed in such a troubling manner incredibly i was being shown this memo in [26:46] secret by my supervisor who made sure that i understood that disobedience could cost me my job [26:53] ice is teaching cadets to violate the constitution and they were attempting to [26:59] cloak it in secrecy by demanding that i lie about it i am here to convey to the public [27:06] the danger that is being created at the ice academy i know from my conversations with many [27:11] facility members many of the faculty that i am not alone in my fear law enforcement is a deadly [27:18] serious business it is not a place for shortcuts deficient training can and will get people killed [27:26] and will lead to unlawful arrests violations of constitutional rights and a fundamental loss [27:32] of public trust in law enforcement ice is lying to congress and the american people about the steps [27:40] it is taking to ensure its 12 000 new officers faithfully uphold the constitution and can perform [27:45] their jobs i'm grateful for the opportunity to speak to you today and happy to answer any [27:51] questions you have now or in the future thank you for your attention thank you mr schwenk mr brunel [28:01] thank you senator blue [28:02] menthol representative garcia and the members of the committee both for your leadership on [28:07] immigration issues and for giving me an opportunity to speak with you today [28:13] my name is steve bunnell i was the general counsel of the homeland security department from 2013 [28:19] until 2017. i previously had served 17 years as a career federal prosecutor including several years [28:27] as the chief of the criminal division in the u.s attorney's office here in washington dc [28:33] i am one of six former general counsel and acting general counsel of dhs who recently co-authored a [28:40] guest essay in the new york times disagreeing with ice's new policy of relying on administrative [28:46] arrest warrants to forcibly enter private residents to arrest someone for a civil immigration violation [28:55] the six of us included top dhs lawyers from the bush administration the obama administration [29:03] the first trump administration [29:04] and the biden administration this is a group that doesn't agree on policy issues always [29:11] but we all agreed on this point the judicial warrant is a requirement of the fourth amendment [29:17] and it applies to ice just like it applies to every other federal state and local law [29:23] enforcement agency what also united and frankly offended all of us who signed that new york times [29:30] op-ed was the current general counsel characterizing career dhs lawyers as quote deep [29:38] state operatives with some sort of hidden agenda to undermine the department's mission [29:44] this is a cheap shot and it's wrong it's not the so-called deep state that for decades has kept ice [29:51] from entering a home using just an administrative warrant it is the fourth amendment of the [29:57] constitution and the lawyers who took an oath to support and defend it during our time at dhs [30:04] the six of us worked with thousands of dhs lawyers those lawyers sought to ensure that dhs's actions [30:13] and to protect the constitutional rights of the people dhs agents encountered during operations [30:19] to smear career lawyers as deep state operatives for giving legal advice that is faithful to the [30:26] constitution is not only offensive but also dangerous it sends a message if you give your [30:32] best professional advice and urge the department to respect the law you will be attacked for doing [30:37] your job it is a basic principle of the fourth amendment that searches and seizures inside a [30:44] home without a judicial warrant are presumptuous [30:46] unreasonable indeed as mr schwenk just said the supreme court has stated that the physical entry [30:54] of the home is the chief evil against which the working of the fourth amendment is directed [30:59] the law is also clear as representative garcia pointed out that well the law is also clear you [31:07] can't enter someone's home without a warrant that's been issued by a neutral and detached [31:12] magistrate or judge in other words the police can't sign their own warrants [31:18] this is a basic check and balance against tyranny and also a recognition that in the competitive [31:24] enterprise of law enforcement even a good well-intentioned police officer is subject to [31:29] the natural human biases that we all share and therefore needs the approval of a neutral and [31:35] independent judicial officer before taking an action as consequential as a forced entry into [31:41] a person's home and as representative garcia noted it's important to point out that in the context of [31:49] the fourth amendment the fourth amendment says the people have the right to be protected from [31:54] unreasonable searches and seizures it doesn't say citizens it says the people it's thus well [32:00] established that the fourth amendment applies to everyone within the physical boundaries of [32:05] the united states including immigrants who are not lawfully present ice claims that its general [32:12] statutory detention authority combined with a final removal order by an immigration judge is [32:19] sufficient to satisfy the fourth amendment [32:21] argument doesn't work immigration judges are not neutral and detached judicial officers within the [32:28] meaning of the fourth amendment they work for the executive branch and are subject to the control of [32:32] the president and the attorney general immigration judges also lack the statutory authority to issue [32:40] warrants either for an arrest or for a search i'm happy to flesh out these points and others during [32:46] my testimony in closing i urge the homeland security department to adhere to the constitution [32:51] and end the un-american practice of [32:54] conducting forcible entries into homes without judicial warrants thank you thank you mr brunel [33:00] we have been alternating the gavel and the questioning i'm going to ask congressman [33:09] garcia to go first i will follow him and then we're going to go back and forth between the [33:14] house and the senate colleagues who have joined us here and we'll have five minute rounds thank [33:22] you senator blumenthal of course i want to thank our witnesses again for being here a really [33:26] important testimony particularly want to thank [33:29] you know mr mr schwenk i your courage for coming forward and your story i think is just obviously [33:34] so important i just want to thank you for for pointing out how critical it is that we are [33:39] following the law and the constitution and i want to just also make something really clear [33:44] this is also about safety in your own home this is about ensuring that every single american feels [33:49] that their home is a place for safety for themselves and for their family now miss [33:55] gibson brown you experienced the results of the trump administration's new [33:59] unconstitutional policy in person and it was an attack on your own home and your own family i want [34:05] to thank you for telling your story and the american people should understand and see exactly [34:09] what this looked like in practice now with your permission uh we have asked to show a video [34:15] so that people can understand what actually happened what the federal government actually [34:19] did to you so this video is because it's a short minute we're going to play it real quick on the [34:22] screen um for me um you know it that's really i think that's hard to watch i think for anybody and [35:23] especially miss gibson brown that you had to experience that um but i think it's important [35:27] for the american public to see that video that could happen to any person in this country [35:34] and some of what um what you said there are kids in this house show the warrant first where is the [35:42] warrant shameful what you had to go through and your family had to go through now miss gibson [35:46] brown you are an american citizen is that correct you asked for a warrant is that correct yes [35:55] and the law states that every citizen in this country is entitled to a warrant signed by a judge [36:00] because they can't have a warrant signed by a judge no they did not they did not now mr schwenk [36:04] before this new policy that you reported about would it have been legal for these officers to [36:09] come into miss gibson's home without a warrant signed by a judge thank you congressman no the [36:15] answer is it would not have been legal either before or after this memo came out for them to [36:20] go into that home thank you now miss gibson ice brought overwhelming military style force into [36:26] your home is that not correct correct [36:27] warrant correct correct they put your children in danger is that how you felt yes can you think of [36:36] any justification why this level of force military force would be needed to forcefully enter your [36:45] home no i can't think of any this is what happens when we disregard the constitution when we [36:53] disregard the rights of people in this country this is wrong it's outrageous and every person [37:00] should be ashamed of our own government for causing this kind of terror not just to you and [37:05] to your own family and neighborhood but to pokes folks across this country there's no other way to [37:10] describe what they're trying to do than to terrorize communities and neighborhoods i want to [37:19] say i am sorry for what you've had to experience i know that is not that is not enough this [37:25] government should be not just apologizing to you but for writing they should try to write [37:29] that wrong and uh [37:31] obligation of all of us here in this room and across the country to stand up to this [37:35] charity so thank you and senator yield back thank you congressman garcia i'm going to hold up two [37:41] posters one of them you've just seen is what happened at your home the other is of a memo [37:53] mr schwein i think you'll recognize this memo it is a memo written by acting director [38:03] lyons we've seen it before at this hearing it says in effect ice officers should violate the [38:12] law of the fourth amendment were you taught or told that you should train ice agents in accordance [38:21] with this memo thank you senator yes on the very first day i arrived at glencoe to teach i was told [38:29] that we were to instruct cadets to follow the instructions in this memo but that we would not [38:35] write down any of those instructions that we would not keep a record that we taught it to them that's [38:42] a critical point because i asked acting director lyons to write down the instructions that we would [38:45] not keep a record that we taught it to them that's a critical point because i asked acting director [38:47] lyons whether this memo was distributed and he said in fact that it was with an email that [38:55] so far they have failed to produce what you're saying is that you were told not to reveal it [39:02] correct thank you senator yes i was told not to discuss this memo in fact when it was shown to [39:07] me i was told not to take notes on it that i was not allowed to write down any part of it and for [39:13] the record as an attorney for ice and someone who routinely receives memos and memoranda issued by [39:19] the police i was told not to write down any part of it and for the record as an attorney for ice [39:21] i was told not to write down any part of it and for the record as an attorney for ice [39:23] so in effect you were told as an instructor on the law that you were to train ice agents [39:32] how to break the law i think every american should be absolutely horrified by that fact and you were [39:41] not alone this memorandum was the basis for training ice agents generally hundreds thousands [39:50] of them [39:51] during this fiscal year let me ask you about topics that there were practical exams on [40:00] and i'm going to show you another chart which in effect and you you've seen it it's difficult [40:08] to decipher in this form but it depicts the topics of exams that were given practical exams [40:19] and coursework you've testified as to the reduction is it a fact that there was [40:28] an elimination not just a reduction in hours of training by almost half but also on critical [40:37] substance matters topics that should have been trained thank you senator that is accurate what [40:45] you're looking at on those two charts the shorter one is the amount of testing that's given now [40:50] in practical exams the longer one are the practical exams that were given [40:54] by ice in his training program before the current surge training scores [41:01] we have seen a significant increase in the number of students who continue to go to practice [41:06] or the number of physical tests and this is just a little bit of an idea that was brought in by jessica [41:10] from the academy this is what we discussed with ms gipson brown and shane brown we identified [41:16] many examples of testable systems that were being taught to study different types of [41:21] learning conditions whether it's whether or not they had a major or minor condition [41:28] they were being taught how to use their firearms safely and what testing was left was not fail [41:33] reduced or essentially neutered by the way it was given. Tests that were designed and written [41:40] to be closed book where cadets were tested and what they could remember because again go back to [41:46] I said this earlier officers have a split second to decide something so everything we do is oriented [41:53] to giving them that split second to act and they have to know everything for it. We took away the [41:59] ability to test whether they could. But what those ice officers did to Ms. Gibson Brown, what they did [42:07] to countless people in Minneapolis, what they are continuing to do across the country was not [42:13] the result of split level decisions. It was the result of a conscious, purposeful, deliberate [42:21] policy carefully taught and trained. And in fact the reduction in training for example on pistol [42:31] use, [42:32] on use of force on other vital topics was regrettable but the effects were truly shocking [42:43] let me ask you uh because just in the time that we've released these documents dhs has come forth [42:51] with a statement i'm going to quote it under these new improvements candidates still learn the same [42:58] elements and meet the same high standards ice has always required no subject matter has been [43:06] cut is that statement accurate mr schwein senator that statement is not accurate [43:12] not in even the slightest sense it is untrue would you agree sir i'd call it a lie congressman [43:19] garcia if you would call on someone from your side thank you senator representative i'm sorry [43:26] thank you ranking member garcia and senator blumenthal for convening both house and senate [43:31] democrats to continue [43:32] our oversight of dhs's lawlessness and brutality the trump regime has used its paramilitary force [43:39] dhs and ice agents to terrorize communities and families all across the united states [43:46] these agents are told to engage in illegal and unconstitutional activity [43:51] including illegal use of administrative warrants to invade private homes and mass [43:56] surveillance to collect data on millions of americans here is just one example ice [44:02] age [44:02] agents breaking down the door of miss tiana gibson brown without a warrant to arrest her husband [44:09] garrison gibson this fascist paramilitary force particularly border control agents and ice are [44:18] completely untrained to conduct police activity in american cities resulting in chaos and deadly harm [44:25] to both members of the public like alex preddy and renee nicole goode as well as two officers it is [44:32] horrific it is racist it is fascist and it is totally illegal this is still america rules apply [44:40] and the constitution matters under dhs use of force policies ice and border patrol agents must comply [44:48] with the fourth amendment's restrictions on the use of force that is that agents may only use force [44:54] when quote no reasonably effective safe and feasible alternative appears to exist end quote [45:02] instead agents are engaging in a free-for-all shooting tasing and pepper spraying wherever [45:08] they see fit secretary gnome should resign in disgrace or be impeached she will go down [45:15] in history as one of the worst accomplices to this massive abuse of power we need to [45:21] reign in ice and hold the trump epstein regime accountable for its crimes now i want to turn [45:27] to our witnesses and i want to thank all of you for being here today and bravely speaking out [45:32] about the [46:01] to shine a light on these abuses my first question is for mr bunnell yes or no in the absence of an emergency are ice and border patrol agents legally allowed to knock down someone's door without a judicial warrant and probable cause they are not and yes or no also for you have ice and border patrol agents acted illegally enforcing entry to private homes over the past year without judicial warrants and probable cause based on [46:04] the reports that we've seen today and what we've heard about uh it sounds like they are yes and [46:10] miss gibson brown yes or no did federal agents present a legal judicial warrant to you when [46:16] they broke down your front door with a battering ram and entered with guns pointed at you while [46:22] your daughter was home no they did not and to mr swank thank you so much for your testimony today [46:30] yes or no are ice agents being told they can force entry into private homes without judicial warrants [46:37] they are and you said in your introduction quote there was a secretive order to train officers to [46:44] violate the constitution yes or no ice agents are being directed to break the law and violate [46:50] the constitution with such directions yes they're being instructed to violate the law and enter homes [46:58] using the i-205 warrant process which is just a permission slip it's not a real judicial warrant [47:04] thank you what we are seeing around the country is an authoritarian police [47:10] the kind created by a shameless authoritarian donald trump to preserve and expand his power [47:17] at the expense of our constitutional rights i will not stop fighting against this fascist [47:23] paramilitary force and again i want to thank the witnesses for your bravery and for your testimony [47:28] and for your patriotism today thank you i yield back thank you senator klobuchar thank you i thank [47:33] my colleagues for this important hearing today and i will say i've repeatedly challenged my [47:40] fellow states that this these Scaffolding하세요 has made clear that the lighting standards [47:46] Shout out to all your Republican colleagues that if you believe in the constitution then you believe [47:52] in the first amendment right to assemble if you believe in people's liberties if you believe in [47:57] the constitution then you don't go after people for having a legal permit to carry like they did [48:01] to Alex pretty then you believe in the second amendment if you believe in the constitution then [48:05] you believe in the fifth amendment right to due process and if you believe in the constitution you [48:10] which is the major part of this hearing that we're talking about today and I would start [48:15] with you Mr. Bunnell. Thank you so much for coming forward. In your written testimony you [48:22] noted that the DHS legal training materials previously called physical entry into a home [48:28] without consent or a judicial warrant the chief evil against which the wording of the fourth [48:35] amendment is directed as you know Justice Scalia once wrote that when it comes to the fourth [48:42] amendment the home is first among equals can you explain why the home holds this special [48:48] importance under the law? Thank you Senator the Supreme Court has spoken to this numerous times [48:57] over the decades and centuries. The home is the the core thing that is at the heart of the fourth [49:05] amendment. [49:06] protections it's the sanctity of the home it dates back to the traditions in [49:12] England before the Declaration of Independence and the sort of notion that [49:16] a man's home is his castle and so this is a deeply rooted principle of American [49:25] jurisprudence thank you very much and I would know we've had happened numerous [49:30] times it wasn't just in the case of sad case of Miss Gibson Brown in front of [49:35] her nine-year-old daughter husband sister it also happened to a Hmong elder [49:40] who was dragged out of his house by mistake and the coldest day ever in his [49:45] underwear and thrown in a car and driven around for 24 hours so Miss Gibson Brown [49:50] you had just come back from your night shift as a nurse is that right yes ma'am [49:55] and that's why you're wearing the scrubs in the video I had fell asleep with my [49:59] scrubs on yeah and you work in intensive care unit is that right [50:04] a pediatric [50:05] a pediatric [50:05] intensive care yes and how long have you been doing that 21 years so there [50:11] you are your home and then suddenly your husband wakes you up and tells you that [50:14] this has happened could you talk about how you felt at that moment I just [50:22] didn't understand because he had just checked in and then he had another check [50:27] in for the 26th and it was my son's birthday that day so I was just in shock [50:33] and is it true then that judge Bryant who used to for my colleagues should know this he [50:38] was a assistant U.S. attorney worked as a prosecutor and then in the last few [50:44] years this went through a confirmation hearing and became a federal judge he's [50:49] the judge that then issued an order that this was illegal what happened to you is [50:54] that correct yes thank you mr. Schwenk thank you for coming forward as my [51:02] colleagues have noted and I want you to go over again because it was just so [51:07] shocking to me [51:08] What was eliminated from the training of these ICE agents? [51:12] Just because it's been my constituents that have been dragged out of their homes like the Hmong elder. [51:18] And it is my constituents that have seen repeatedly the racial profiling and this illegal use of force. [51:25] Tell us what was omitted, taken away from this training when our colleagues in the last few years, [51:32] coinciding with last summer when they gave them an extra $75 billion. [51:36] What was taken out of the training, Mr. Schwenk? [51:38] Thank you, Senator. [51:40] What was taken out of the training were classes on use of force, [51:44] specifically classes taught by the legal department, as well as classes taught by other units. [51:49] What was taken out was almost 16 hours of firearms training, [51:52] classes that teach them how to use their weapons correctly and safely. [51:56] What was taken out were classes on how the Constitution works, [52:00] what the constitutional requirements are for their job, and the constitutional limits on their authority. [52:05] In fact, the class where we talk to the officers and teach them about the rights of protesters. [52:10] Was cut from a two-hour program into about 10 minutes. [52:13] They got shoehorned into a lecture on what the concept of a seizure is. [52:16] There are others. There are many other classes that were cut, but I think these are the most critical for your question. [52:21] Thank you. [52:23] Thank you, Senator Klobuchar. I'm gonna call on Representative Randall. [52:29] Thank you so much, Senator. [52:33] And thank you to our witnesses for being here today to shed light on the blatant disregard [52:38] of the rule of law that we have seen from this administration. [52:43] They're executing illegal warrants in violation of the Fourth Amendment. [52:46] Preventing members of Congress from exercising their lawful congressional oversight duty [52:51] and failing to uphold tribal sovereignty by rounding up and detaining tribal citizens. [52:56] I visited the Northwest Detention Center in my district six times to ensure that immigrants are being treated with dignity, [53:03] with humanity, and with care. [53:05] And what I've seen on each and every visit is a stark reminder of the chaos, [53:12] the pain, and the confusion at the hands of Donald Trump, Stephen Miller, [53:17] and Kristi Noem, and what happens when policy is developed from a place of hate and not a place of facts. [53:24] I've heard report after report of the denial of basic rights within the facility in my district, [53:31] and twice I've been illegally denied entry when attempting to conduct an unannounced oversight visit [53:36] to further investigate these concerning reports. [53:38] And we know that this is only one of the many ways in which this administration is acting illegally. [53:45] There are 12 tribal nations in my district, and I've heard concerns from many of them. [53:48] I've heard concerns from so many of them about how ICE and CBP are racially profiling tribal citizens and detaining them, [53:54] people who are indigenous to this country. [53:58] I've had tribal citizens tell me they're sending their kids to school with their tribal IDs on them out of safety and fear. [54:06] And when tribal members show their tribal IDs to ICE and CBP, those officers lack any understanding of tribal ID cards. [54:13] Last week, Secretary Noem wrote to tribal leaders claiming that [54:17] no enrolled tribal citizens are entitled to tribal ID cards. [54:18] She also said that no ICE operations have occurred on tribal lands. [54:25] And this is a pure lie. [54:27] She's calling every tribal citizen who has spoken out about their experience liars, and it is disgusting. [54:36] Mr. Bonhomme, how are ICE and CBP educating and training officers and agents on the United States government, [54:44] United States government-to-government relationship with Indian tribes? [54:51] You know, I might want to punt that one [54:54] to Mr. Schwenk in terms of the training. [54:58] I'm not familiar exactly with, you know, how that topic is covered. [55:03] I will say it was not an issue that percolated to the upper ranks of the department during my time there. [55:12] Frankly, your description of it is quite concerning in a way that I hadn't heard before. [55:20] So thank you for raising it. [55:22] Thank you so much. [55:23] We have [55:25] continued to hear concerns, not just in my district. [55:28] When we were in Minnesota, [55:29] I heard the same thing from tribal leaders there who were looking out for and advocating for the safety of constituents, [55:37] of their neighbors, of tribal members who, [55:40] you know, are stopped because they are brown and forced to prove that they are not only indigenous to this land, [55:47] but that they are citizens. [55:50] This may be a question for Mr. Schwenk also, given that some tribal leaders, [55:57] some tribal leaders have encouraged our members to carry tribal IDs to show ICE and CBP in case they're detained. [56:04] Do you know, are ICE and CBP agents trained on how to identify a valid tribal ID? [56:13] I do not think of the question, but I do not have any particular information on how they're trained to identify a tribal ID. [56:19] I do know there are general classes on identification documents that they take. [56:22] But again, because we have eliminated practical testing, I have no idea if they're actually learning it. [56:29] In the materials I teach or I taught for the Academy, [56:32] the only things we discussed involving Native Americans were the possibility that some Native American tribes have the ability to cross the United States border. [56:40] That was really all we ever covered in that side of it. [56:42] Thank you. What about racial profiling? [56:44] Can you tell us what guidance was provided to ICE agents regarding racial profiling? [56:50] Yes. Yes, Representative. In the training material that we taught, [56:55] the material calls for the Department to follow the Department of Justice's guidelines on race, [56:59] on the use of race and other factors in law enforcement operations. [57:04] But in practice, what the cadets are taught is to follow what's called the Kavanaugh Stop. [57:09] That is that they are allowed to use race as a factor, not the sole factor, but a factor in their operations. [57:18] Thank you. I think we've all seen the disturbing effects of that practice in our communities and across the country. [57:24] And I really appreciate you for being here and sharing. Thank you. I yield back. [57:29] Thank you, Representative Brandel. Senator Welch. Well, thank you all. [57:33] very, very much, each of you, and we're all horrified at what happened to you, Ms. Gibson [57:38] Brown. Let me just ask a question, Mr. Schwenk. With respect to that attack on the home of Ms. [57:46] Gibson Brown, aside from the warrant question, why in the world and in what world did we need [57:55] a force with automatic rifles, combat fatigues, helmets, the whole military operation? What part [58:05] of Homeland Security requires that to go to this woman's home? Thank you, Senator. I can address [58:14] that question to some degree. Part of that I have to defer on because I believe it might reveal [58:19] tactical practices of the agency, and I don't feel comfortable disclosing that. But what I can [58:23] address is that those officers in that situation, regardless of how they show up to the scene, [58:31] however they're dressed, whatever equipment they're carrying, are supposed to know their [58:36] constitutional law, their understanding of the law, and their understanding of the law. [58:38] of what their authority is well enough that regardless of whatever orders they receive [58:43] before they show up. Let me interrupt for a second. I get that. I'm just shocked that you [58:48] would have that level of force to show up at this woman's home. I mean, my view of that, [58:56] it's intended to intimidate not just Ms. Gibson Brown and terrorize her family and her children. [59:01] It's intimidating to everybody in this country to see that level of force. [59:08] Mr. Vanell, thank you so much, by the way. The deep state, I just laughed when I heard that [59:15] because, you know, my sense of what you do and your colleagues and people who've been career [59:19] prosecutors suggests a commitment to the Constitution, a commitment to professionalism, [59:27] a commitment to duty. If that's the deep state, that's a pretty good state to be in. [59:32] I want to express my gratitude for the work you are doing and your colleagues. But what about, [59:38] this question of having a decision made by a superior to deploy people in combat gear, [59:47] automatic rifles, to go out to a citizen's home? I mean, leave the warrant part of it alone. With [59:54] or without a warrant, I'm shocked that that is what you had to arrive home to. [1:00:01] Well, I share your reaction to it as kind of wildly over the top. I mean, why you need to [1:00:09] dress like you're invading a rifle. [1:00:11] I mean, I think that's the point that gets lost a little bit is, yes, there may be some probable [1:00:22] cause that somebody is removable. But a warrant is usually something for somebody who is a [1:00:30] fugitive. As I understand, you know, Mr. Gibson's situation, he had removal orders. He received a [1:00:38] removal order in 2009. And he was a fugitive. And he was a fugitive. And he was a fugitive. And he [1:00:41] was a fugitive. And he was a fugitive. And he was a fugitive. And he was a fugitive. And he [1:00:41] was a fugitive. And he was a fugitive. And he'd been checking in regularly as he was supposed to, [1:00:44] including right up shortly before this. [1:00:46] That's an administrative, that's a discretionary decision by somebody [1:00:52] higher up in the chain that sent these officers out in that way, right? [1:00:58] Yes, it was not a judicial officer. It was somebody, their supervisor in the field office. [1:01:05] Yeah, it's part of the Kristi Noem terror campaign against Americans. [1:01:09] Right. I would also just note that to the extent [1:01:12] that ICE at least purports to want to have a strong partnership with state and locals and would [1:01:19] like to improve their reputation in the communities that they say they're trying to protect and serve, [1:01:26] this strikes me as an extremely, shall we say, odd way to build trust and credibility [1:01:31] with either the people of the community or the state and locals. [1:01:35] How about counterproductive? [1:01:37] They're probably much stronger words that could be at a minimum odd and counterproductive. [1:01:42] All right. Let me ask, [1:01:43] both of you, is there any justifiable reason, any justifiable law enforcement reason [1:01:51] that the standards of training and safety and policing that apply to the Burlington, [1:01:57] Vermont police force, to the Vermont state police force, to police forces [1:02:02] in all our jurisdictions in the country should not apply to ICE, Mr. Schwenk? [1:02:10] Thank you, Senator. And my answer to your question is no. At a root level, all law enforcement should [1:02:15] be trained to a minimum standard to understand when they can and cannot enter a home, when they [1:02:22] can and cannot use force, when they can and cannot make an arrest. And this was the point I was [1:02:28] approaching earlier, Senator, is that regardless of how they showed up at the scene, regardless of [1:02:31] how they were told to dress when they came there or what they were told to carry, every one of [1:02:35] those officers was supposed to know what they were allowed to do under the Constitution. And that was [1:02:40] the point of the training program is to teach them to know that and to know it well enough that even [1:02:44] if they got an order that was unlawful they would know not to follow it thank you thank you my time [1:02:50] is up thank you very much thank you next i'd like to call up a representative walkinshaw please thank [1:02:58] you ranking member and thank you all for being with us we're a nation in crisis right now the [1:03:03] trump administration has turned american cities into war zones unleashing mass minimally trained [1:03:09] agents and claiming falsely claiming that these agents have absolute immunity from prosecution [1:03:15] now dhs has embarked on a secretive campaign as we've heard today in disregard of the constitution [1:03:22] to allow warrantless entry into the homes of u.s citizens and i just have to say you know i serve [1:03:28] in the house of representatives with a lot of folks who describe themselves as small government [1:03:33] limited government conservatives even have a caucus called the freedom caucus if the government [1:03:39] if the federal government [1:03:41] can smash down your door while your children are sleeping without a warrant signed by a judge you [1:03:49] do not have a small or limited government and if you allow that if you countenance that you do not [1:03:56] believe in freedom the action these agents are taking are abuses of civil liberties that stem [1:04:03] from a central truth secretary gnome's department of homeland security believes it is above the law [1:04:10] judges across the country have documented this lawlessness including the honorable patrick schilt [1:04:16] a republican appointed federal judge in minnesota who identified at least 96 court orders that ice [1:04:22] violated across 74 cases we have lawyers here today with dhs experience and a u.s citizen [1:04:30] testifying that when the department cannot bend the legal system to accommodate its brutality [1:04:36] it bypasses the law entirely in may of 2025 as we heard ice director lyons issued a memo [1:04:43] authorizing officers to forcibly enter homes without a judicial warrant in violation of the [1:04:48] fourth amendment they were told they could rely on an quote-unquote administrative warrant nothing [1:04:54] more than a piece of paper signed by a supervisor to use the pejorative that some of my republican [1:05:00] colleagues use an unelected bureaucrat a piece of paper signed by an unelected bureaucrat the secrecy [1:05:10] is actually illuminating it shows that this administration doesn't see itself as subject [1:05:15] to our legal system rather it decides to ignore the law behind closed doors and hope that no one [1:05:22] will ever be able to get out of this country and the court is now in a state of utter disdain [1:05:28] we have concrete testimony today from mr schwenk that dhs has knowingly jeopardized the safety of [1:05:34] americans by system systematically dismantling the training designed to educate ice officers [1:05:41] on the legal limits of their authority including the fourth amendment the decision to ramp down [1:05:46] training while simultaneously authorizing unconstitutional searches are deliberate [1:05:52] choices and support of president trump's lawless and inhumane campaign this is why secretary of [1:05:55] state secretary noem should resign should be fired or should be impeached and why this congress must [1:06:01] ensure independent oversight of dhs's actions that reform has to include a return to targeted [1:06:10] enforcement that relies on lawful warrants an end to masked officers protections for sensitive [1:06:16] locations use of force standards body cameras and humanitarian standards for individuals [1:06:22] in dhs custody to quote judge schiltz ice is not [1:06:26] law unto itself i want to ask miss gibson did the federal agents know that there were children [1:06:35] inside your home when they broke down your door yes i stated that okay to them can you share with [1:06:44] us and i i remember watching the video after the incident and i was struck by your composure but i [1:06:52] could also hear the fear in your voice i think you said my babies are in the house or babies in the [1:06:57] house can you share with us the impact that this is going to have on our lives and the impact that this [1:07:01] incident has had on those babies those children who were in the home my daughter is terrified of [1:07:09] everything every little knock on the door um she'll scream mommy mommy calm down it's okay [1:07:16] she's in therapy um just it just shouldn't have happened especially if he had an appointment to [1:07:25] check in they could have taken him into custody then to do all of this to traumatize her me and [1:07:32] my whole family it was just it's too much thank you [1:07:38] for being here i yield back senator cortez masto thank you thank you all for for being here and i [1:07:46] i want to follow up because i was going to ask this as well because people forget they see the [1:07:51] moment that it happens then they forget what happens afterwards to the family and the children [1:07:56] and for your daughter and cousin and everyone else who experienced it how are they feeling now [1:08:04] they're still in fear um she calls me today she called me 12 times just to make sure i was okay [1:08:13] make sure i was safe [1:08:15] it's just she just fear everything now she's seen them down the street from her school and we had to [1:08:22] go pick her up because she's full panic yeah and as can you talk a little bit about even the chilling [1:08:30] effect that this has had not just maybe on you and your family but neighbors or people that find out [1:08:35] about what happened have you heard from neighbors and others who are also in fear now because of [1:08:40] what happened yeah a lot of my neighbors like don't go anywhere now they've it's like we're [1:08:46] in jail in our own homes too fearful to leave to go to the store just fear great and and can i talk [1:08:57] about let me ask both mr um shank and bunel um sensitive locations i'm curious how did ice handle [1:09:04] sensitive locations prior to what we are seeing now in your experience when and let's let me [1:09:15] clarify sense of locations of of schools and churches and even the courthouse and even the [1:09:21] courthouse and where people may be i'm curious how that has changed thank you senator so the [1:09:27] answer to that question is that before the current administration there were strict rules about any [1:09:32] attempt to make an arrest at those locations and those rules basically boiled down to don't do it [1:09:37] why don't enter those locations because of their sensitive nature because because an ice officer [1:09:44] entering into a church a school a courthouse has the effect of convincing people not to go to those [1:09:51] places to avoid them [1:09:52] and when people avoid going to church school or court they step away from the rights and the roles [1:09:59] they have in our civic society it pushes them away from it and gives them less power to protect [1:10:04] themselves and when you agree somebody's home is also considered a sensitive location that's why it [1:10:10] requires fourth amendment and really constitutional protections it has and it requires a fourth [1:10:16] amendment judicial warrant to enter but wouldn't you agree because of what we're hearing right now [1:10:20] the impact it is having to families because they don't even feel safe in their homes [1:10:23] yes senator in fact i think that's why it's not included in this original memos [1:10:28] it's obvious to anyone who looks at the u.s constitution that the home is a sacred place [1:10:35] it is a place where everyone should feel safe when they close their door and for those that that may [1:10:40] not be steeped in legal analysis this isn't criminal this is civil immigration this is civil [1:10:48] correct yes senator and can you talk yeah could you talk a little bit about that please and why [1:10:58] when we're talking about civil immigration enforcement it does not require the level of force [1:11:05] and it mandates against the level of force we are seeing right now under our constitution yeah [1:11:14] um it i actually don't think it makes a difference in terms of the fourth amendment whether it's [1:11:20] civil or criminal you need a judicial warrant so that's that's one point i think there is [1:11:26] some confusion certainly in the public discourse about what ice is doing in [1:11:30] a legislative few- Empress and Texas but sort of play politicalights there's some Estavel but i think there is some confusion certainly in the public discourse about what ice is doing JERI ella Emma reيد says that first is a lot of homeland movement is going to be more current than ever and the other smrum nachich with emma or Harris on to take a quick on this image because this is something you've talked about you saw this following one of what the association and what [1:11:30] what ICE is doing when they're out making these arrests. [1:11:35] They are not enforcing criminal law. [1:11:38] They're not going after somebody [1:11:39] who's a suspected murderer or rapist [1:11:42] who's out on the lam and they're not arresting them [1:11:45] so they can be prosecuted and put into jail. [1:11:48] They are going out to detain [1:11:52] and remove that person out of the country. [1:11:55] They're from Mexico, they'll go back to Mexico [1:11:57] and they'll be set free. [1:11:58] Not to be detained indefinitely. [1:12:01] Just as, I mean, long enough to be removed, basically. [1:12:05] Sometimes that is a long period of time. [1:12:08] I mean, there are lots of people [1:12:09] who are subject to orders of removal, like Mr. Gibson, [1:12:13] who are not a public safety risk, [1:12:16] who are not a flight risk, and therefore are not detained. [1:12:21] They're released into the community with conditions. [1:12:24] And in his case, he was adhering to those conditions [1:12:28] for [1:12:29] 17 years. [1:12:31] So, you know, these are not, in his instance, [1:12:39] these are not the worst of the worst. [1:12:40] These are not dangerous people. [1:12:43] But they have civil rights, they have constitutional rights, [1:12:46] just like everybody else. [1:12:47] And, you know, one of the things that gets lost here [1:12:50] kind of dovetails with the lack of training. [1:12:54] All of these agents and the lawyers take an oath [1:12:57] to defend and protect the Constitution. [1:13:00] Be nice if they were trained on what [1:13:01] the Constitution is. [1:13:05] The Homeland Security Act says as part of its mission, [1:13:08] the department is supposed to protect civil liberties, [1:13:12] protect privacy. [1:13:14] A secure homeland is a homeland [1:13:15] in which you have those rights secured. [1:13:18] You have the freedoms and securities [1:13:20] that the country promises. [1:13:22] So we're losing sight of the mission [1:13:25] when we don't pay attention to the constitution, [1:13:28] we don't pay attention to the oath, [1:13:31] and we ridicule the quote deep state [1:13:33] for trying to follow that oath and with the chairman's indulgence I have one [1:13:37] final question because mr. Schwenk you talked about how the training they've [1:13:43] eliminated some training and then shorten some of the training around use [1:13:47] of force 16-hour firearms training around constitutional law that you [1:13:52] talked about was so important and the rights of protesters it's been [1:13:56] diminished about what ten minutes let me ask you this who are they hiring though [1:14:01] all right they're not are they police officers that already have this [1:14:05] training so they don't have to worry about it or who's being hired is it [1:14:08] individuals that don't have any law enforcement background or [1:14:11] constitutional background I'm curious what we're seeing here in this surge [1:14:14] Thank You senator so I want to start to answer that question by saying I was [1:14:21] genuinely surprised by two things about the cadets I saw at the Academy one was [1:14:27] that I routinely met cadets who genuinely wanted to learn and understand [1:14:31] what they were supposed to do that they wanted to do [1:14:33] their jobs correctly I have no doubt that if given the opportunity they would [1:14:37] do that but they are cadets who come from a variety of backgrounds I've had cadets [1:14:43] who were 18 years old I had a cadet who we celebrated her 19th birthday in one [1:14:46] of our classes we have cadets who don't have college degrees we have cadets for [1:14:53] whom English is not their primary language I was genuinely surprised by [1:14:56] the sheer number of cadets we had that were first or second generation [1:14:59] immigrants and these are all people who I think want to do well but they don't [1:15:04] have the background [1:15:05] and we're not giving them the training to do this job correctly we're not [1:15:10] giving them the training to know when they're being asked to do something [1:15:12] that's not supposed to do something illegal or wrong thank you thank you all [1:15:16] three of you for being here thank you representative till you thank you so [1:15:23] much thank you all for of course being here [1:15:26] but I want to tell you miss Gibson Brown I didn't know your name I saw that image [1:15:31] immediately in front of your home that's your home right I I don't know if you [1:15:36] realize how much it connected so many Americans including myself across the [1:15:41] across the country, it's your porch, your private home. [1:15:44] And all I kept thinking about was looking [1:15:47] at the military gear, the silencers. [1:15:49] I don't know if you realize, I watch those things, [1:15:51] the military gear. [1:15:53] And you know, I start digging and I find out [1:15:56] that ICE is primarily contracting out [1:15:59] with two of the, I think federal immigration agencies [1:16:04] contracted primarily two firearm manufacturers [1:16:07] to buy guns in 2025. [1:16:09] And in the last hearing, I specifically talked about [1:16:12] how they purchased like taser launches or something, [1:16:17] all this stuff. [1:16:18] But now, according to some records, [1:16:19] a report that recently came out, [1:16:21] they've already spent about, [1:16:24] border patrol contract with the same companies [1:16:26] and together ICE and border patrol contracted [1:16:28] for more than 30 million in ammunition [1:16:31] and 25 million in what they call less lethal, [1:16:33] but guess what less lethal is, Ms. Gibbs? [1:16:35] It's pepper ball guns, that's still lethal. [1:16:39] And pepper sprays, including tasers and other things. [1:16:42] I say this because I feel like there's also these companies [1:16:46] pushing and militarizing our neighborhoods and communities. [1:16:50] They're making money off of it. [1:16:53] Thank you so much for your help. [1:16:55] I do want to enter the record. [1:16:57] I know this is a shadow hearing, but it's important. [1:16:59] This is an amazing report. [1:17:02] It's on record reports talking about [1:17:04] private prison investors want ICE to escalate. [1:17:08] I want American people to know, [1:17:09] there are people behind the scenes saying, [1:17:11] go, go, buy more, cage up more people [1:17:15] because we make more money off of it. [1:17:17] Do you know what this says, Ms. Gibson Brown? [1:17:20] In this report, it describes how even through ICE [1:17:23] is locking up more neighbors than it ever has before. [1:17:25] Record number, 70,000 people that we know of. [1:17:29] Investors in these private prisons, [1:17:31] companies, CoreCivic, and GEO Group are frustrated [1:17:35] that ICE's record immigration detention numbers [1:17:38] aren't high enough, they're not high enough. [1:17:40] No, no, information leaked out. [1:17:42] They said the violent kidnappings, [1:17:44] the murders, incarceration of our loved one [1:17:46] is fueling record profits for these companies [1:17:49] and it's still not enough to satisfy their greed. [1:17:52] What is scary is that CoreCivic alone's profit [1:17:55] spiked up 116.5 million in 2025. [1:17:59] 70% increase, y'all, from the previous year. [1:18:03] 70% increase. [1:18:06] GEO Group, which has one of the largest for-profit, [1:18:11] I call it ICE, [1:18:11] warehouse center in Baldwin, [1:18:14] three hours outside of Detroit. [1:18:17] George Zoli, who called the first year [1:18:20] of Trump's second term the most successful year for them [1:18:22] and the companies here, [1:18:23] both of them, that company, for instance, GEO Group, [1:18:26] made $254 million in profit last year, in 2025. [1:18:31] Both companies are projecting even larger profits [1:18:33] this year, in 2026 already, [1:18:35] and we're not even in March yet. [1:18:37] And ICE, CPP plan to cage tens and thousands [1:18:40] of our loved ones in unsafe warehouses. [1:18:42] They want to build a warehouse in Romulus, [1:18:44] which is right outside, a suburb right outside of Detroit. [1:18:48] The companies in the administration [1:18:49] do not view us as human beings. [1:18:51] They view us as potential profit [1:18:53] and shared shareholder value. [1:18:55] That's exactly how they talk about it. [1:18:57] They don't even care about what process is being followed. [1:19:00] All they care is about selling more military gear [1:19:04] and how many beds, or what they call, you know, [1:19:07] people they can have in there. [1:19:08] I have, personally, three, three residents of mine [1:19:12] who are begging, Rashida, ICE said deport me. [1:19:15] Send me, you know, since July. [1:19:17] Because they can't stand it. [1:19:18] There's already been attempted suicide [1:19:20] at North Lake in Baldwin, Michigan. [1:19:24] Since July, let me go back. [1:19:27] I have family in my native homeland. [1:19:29] Let me go back. [1:19:30] They will not let them go back [1:19:31] because the longer they have them in there, [1:19:33] the more money they make. [1:19:35] You know what's so disgusting? [1:19:36] ICE director Todd Lyons made this clear [1:19:38] when he said we needed to start treating ICE detention, [1:19:40] and deportation, quote, like Amazon Prime, [1:19:44] but with human beings. [1:19:45] I'm not done. [1:19:46] It's not a coincidence that these two prison companies [1:19:48] and their executives have donated millions of dollars [1:19:51] to city members of Congress to ensure [1:19:52] that record profits keep coming at the expense of lives [1:19:55] and safety of our loved ones. [1:19:57] The drive for profit will cause, of course, [1:19:59] ICE to continue to fuel. [1:20:02] Ms. Gibson, I just can't thank you enough for being here. [1:20:05] And, you know, I wanted to ask you questions, [1:20:07] but I actually get tearful hearing your story. [1:20:09] I don't know if you know, you didn't know who I was, [1:20:11] but just seeing this on your porch, [1:20:13] I want to know your story. [1:20:15] And I just can't believe that you were trying [1:20:16] to do everything right, and they still took your husband, [1:20:20] and they traumatized your whole family. [1:20:23] You were trying to do everything right. [1:20:25] And I'm sorry that they think that you are some sort [1:20:27] of cha-ching money, let's just put it out in the community, [1:20:31] that you are not a mother and a spouse. [1:20:35] And I'm just, I'm really incredibly sorry [1:20:37] that that is what's happening, all really for money. [1:20:40] I can't believe how much they've already donated [1:20:42] to Trump, and they've donated to U.S. members of Congress, [1:20:45] both Republican and Democrats. [1:20:47] And I really am scared for our country [1:20:49] that that's what's driving for many to be silent [1:20:52] and to do nothing about what's happening. [1:20:55] Thank you. [1:20:57] Thank you, Representative Tilley. [1:21:00] We are probably not going to have any more colleagues [1:21:05] from either side, but I have some more questions. [1:21:07] So I'm going to go into them, not at huge length, [1:21:13] but you've been very, very helpful and cooperative, [1:21:16] and I want to thank you in advance. [1:21:21] You know, the truth is that as we speak, literally, [1:21:27] as you are here, the Trump administration is arming [1:21:33] a paramilitary force, a new class of recruits, [1:21:38] sending them out on the streets to repeat this kind [1:21:43] of violence and brutality. [1:21:46] It isn't an isolated or aberrant instance. [1:21:52] It's the result of intentional institutional [1:21:55] decisions, and we've documented here through the memo [1:21:59] that Acting Director Lyons prepared and then concealed. [1:22:08] It was used to instruct trainers like Mr. Schrank, [1:22:13] beginning when he started in May, or rather in September, [1:22:20] the memo dates from May, and it was used for hundreds [1:22:25] of agents who now are on the streets [1:22:29] and in our neighborhoods. [1:22:31] These agents now, [1:22:34] have less training than most of the police officers [1:22:40] in our police departments throughout Connecticut [1:22:45] and throughout the country. [1:22:46] They have less training than the state police of Connecticut [1:22:51] and other state police forces throughout the country. [1:22:54] And maybe even more shockingly, [1:22:56] they have training to break the law, [1:23:01] which would never be tolerated in our communities. [1:23:06] Police chiefs who wrote this kind of memo would be fired. [1:23:12] They would be discharged, [1:23:15] and they would never find another job in policing. [1:23:18] Advising and training members of their police force [1:23:23] to break down doors, barge into people's homes, [1:23:27] arrest or detain them without a warrant, [1:23:31] a systematic, purposeful policy to break the law, [1:23:36] would result in firing that police chief. [1:23:42] And yet, what we have is brutal and violent tactics [1:23:46] being used by ICE and CBP tactics, [1:23:48] and yet, what we have is brutal and violent tactics being used by ICE and CBP tactics, [1:23:49] and yet, what we have is brutal and violent tactics being used by ICE and CBP tactics, [1:23:50] with the approval and fact encouragement [1:23:54] of the very head of ICE, [1:23:57] who said to me that this memo was distributed [1:24:03] through an email throughout the department. [1:24:09] Mr. Schwenk, to your knowledge, [1:24:12] was this memo ever distributed? [1:24:17] Thank you, Senator. [1:24:18] To my knowledge, this memo was never distributed [1:24:21] to staff in general. [1:24:22] In fact, when I came to the Academy in September, [1:24:25] I had never seen it, despite being a counsel for the agency, [1:24:26] In fact, when I came to the Academy in September, [1:24:27] I had never seen it, despite being a counsel for the agency, [1:24:27] I had never seen it, despite being a counsel for the agency, [1:24:29] I never saw it again after it was shown to me [1:24:33] the first time and maybe one other time when it was shown to me. [1:24:37] Other than someone physically handing me the document, [1:24:39] I never saw it again. [1:24:41] And right before I left, [1:24:42] I checked the repository where the agency keeps a copy [1:24:45] of every official memo and policy guidance [1:24:48] that is in effect, [1:24:50] and there is no copy of it there. [1:24:52] And Senator, I will point out to you, [1:24:54] if we look at this document, [1:24:57] if we look at it, [1:24:59] every memo issued by ICE [1:25:01] has a control number. [1:25:02] It has something on it that indicates [1:25:04] that it is an official policy document [1:25:06] and where it falls in the agency's archives. [1:25:10] And that's not on this document anywhere. [1:25:13] Also, anytime we issue a memo, [1:25:15] there is something in the document to control its release, [1:25:17] something that says law enforcement only [1:25:19] or for official use only, classified secrets, something. [1:25:22] And there's nothing on this memo that says that. [1:25:25] Nowhere on this memo is there anything [1:25:27] that would let you know [1:25:28] that this is an official policy of the agency. [1:25:31] And to my knowledge, [1:25:32] it's never been disseminated as one. [1:25:34] It's been handed out piecemeal to people [1:25:36] to use when the agency thinks they need to. [1:25:39] Which directly undercuts the veracity [1:25:41] of Acting Director Lyon's testimony under oath [1:25:46] before a congressional committee. [1:25:48] I wanna go into some of the details here [1:25:50] because I think they are so revealing, Mr. Schwenk. [1:25:53] You started your job at ICE [1:25:59] in September of last year. [1:26:03] This memo dates from May. [1:26:06] How did you first see this memo? [1:26:12] Thank you, Senator. [1:26:13] So I've been with ICE for about four and a half years, [1:26:15] but I was an instructor at Glencoe from September. [1:26:18] The memo was shown to me by my supervisor at Glencoe. [1:26:23] It was given to me in person with instructions [1:26:26] that I could read it, but not take any notes on it. [1:26:29] That I could read it in their presence, and that was it. [1:26:33] And that I was going to teach from it, [1:26:35] but I couldn't keep a copy of it to reference. [1:26:38] And I couldn't document that I taught it to anyone. [1:26:40] Just that I could read it. [1:26:42] You were to train on it, [1:26:45] but your supervisor didn't want you to have a copy of it [1:26:49] for fear that it might be revealed. [1:26:52] And in fact, it was revealed [1:26:56] only when whistleblowers came to me, [1:27:01] brave and strong as they were, came to me, [1:27:04] put their professional careers and personal lives [1:27:08] on the line and said they would reveal it. [1:27:13] When you were told to train on it, [1:27:18] I believe that there was some conversation [1:27:20] about instructing them to instructing agents [1:27:27] who were your students to follow this memo's policies, [1:27:33] not the other written guidance that they might be provided. [1:27:37] Is that correct? [1:27:39] Thank you, Senator. [1:27:40] Yes, that is correct. [1:27:41] So what the cadets were told to do [1:27:43] was that they had the authority to make an arrest [1:27:46] under this memo in someone's home, [1:27:49] that they should knock on the door. [1:27:51] And if the person did not open, as Ms. Gibbs said, [1:27:54] or Ms. Gibson-Brown's family did, [1:27:56] that they could use force to enter that home. [1:27:58] Reasonable force to execute [1:28:00] the I-205 administrative removal order. [1:28:04] That's what we were teaching cadets at the academy. [1:28:07] That's what we were told to teach them. [1:28:09] And I will tell you, when I taught my classes, [1:28:11] I would tell the cadets that this policy existed, [1:28:14] and I would tell them that they needed to check [1:28:16] with their local office before they did anything, [1:28:18] because there was no legal basis for this. [1:28:20] But I did tell them this was the agency policy. [1:28:23] Were you apprehensive that a failure to follow this memo, [1:28:26] or was it just a failure to follow this memo? [1:28:26] Were you apprehensive that a failure to follow this memo, [1:28:27] were you apprehensive that a failure to follow this memo, [1:28:28] this illegal policy might result in demotion or discharge? [1:28:33] Yes, Senator, I was. [1:28:35] In fact, it was made very clear to me [1:28:36] when it was shown to me that if I did not follow it, [1:28:39] I would probably lose my job. [1:28:41] Two other attorneys for the agency [1:28:44] had just been removed from teaching positions [1:28:46] at the academy. [1:28:47] One forcibly resigned. [1:28:49] And the way it was shown to me, or told to me, [1:28:51] was that it was because they disagreed with management [1:28:53] over this policy. [1:28:56] So this illegal policy [1:29:00] was not just a suggestion. [1:29:02] It was an order, and people were disciplined [1:29:05] as a result of failing to implement this illegal policy. [1:29:10] Is that correct? [1:29:11] That is my understanding, Senator. [1:29:12] As I said, it's my understanding [1:29:14] that an attorney before me, [1:29:15] in fact, the reason I was at Glencoe [1:29:18] is because I was the alternate [1:29:20] for the person who was forcibly resigned [1:29:22] over their refusal to teach the memo. [1:29:26] And just so everyone understands, [1:29:29] this memorandum was written [1:29:33] by the acting director of this agency, ICE, [1:29:39] with instructions about breaking a longstanding practice [1:29:45] and policy of ICE itself. [1:29:47] A well-established policy and practice of police forces [1:29:53] going back hundreds of years, a practice and policy [1:29:59] that embodies the core Fourth Amendment values [1:30:04] and provisions that no person, no person, not just citizen, [1:30:13] can change. [1:30:13] Have his home violated without a court saying that there's probable cause to do so [1:30:24] You taught ice agents candidates for graduation that then went on to Minneapolis. They went all around the country [1:30:35] We've talked about [1:30:37] DHS [1:30:39] contention that the standards are the same which is belied by the [1:30:45] Documents as well as your testimony the numbers of court courses have been drastically cut [1:30:51] The hours have been reduced the physical or practical exams have been [1:30:59] truncated DHS may contend. Well, we give tests to [1:31:07] these [1:31:09] Cadets before they graduate but my understanding is that many of the tests are paper tests multiple-choice [1:31:16] exams rather than the practical tests on [1:31:20] open-book and open-note [1:31:21] and [1:31:22] Open-book and open-note [1:31:24] Is that correct? [1:31:27] Yes, Senator. That's correct. So what the Academy does is we have two types of tests [1:31:35] We have multiple-choice exams and we have practical exams with the multiple-choice tests [1:31:40] The cadets went from having to do them in a closed-book format where they had to depend on what they had learned and memorized [1:31:47] To doing them open-book and open-note [1:31:49] And then they went from having to do them in a closed-book format [1:31:52] Where they had to depend on what they had learned and memorized [1:31:54] We're essentially the only thing we're really testing them on is their ability to search a document to find the answers [1:32:00] But more important than that we took away the practical testing under the old rules [1:32:08] We took everything they learned in the Academy all [1:32:11] That they learned and we made them apply it [1:32:14] We put them through a range of scenarios where we could test do they understand when they can enter a home or not? [1:32:21] Do they understand when they can make an arrest or not? [1:32:24] And if they showed that they did not know that [1:32:26] We could fail them and send them back and make them try again and demonstrate their knowledge [1:32:32] And if they failed twice out of the Academy and maybe six months later 90 days later [1:32:38] They could come back after they demonstrated their home office that they were ready [1:32:41] But today no matter how badly a cadet does at those practical exams [1:32:46] No matter how many mistakes they make no matter how egregiously they violate the law during a practical we graduate them [1:32:54] I think people should understand [1:32:59] and [1:33:00] Representative Garcia alluded to this fact that a poorly trained [1:33:07] officer of the law [1:33:09] Carrying a firearm or other instruments of force actually makes our [1:33:16] neighborhoods and communities less safe if there were ever a demonstration of it [1:33:22] It has happened in Minneapolis in California in Chicago [1:33:27] We've had graphic dramatic evidence of it at that very panel table [1:33:37] individuals who've been shot almost [1:33:39] Killed relatives of Rene good who was killed others who were treated with brutality. That is [1:33:51] unspeakable dragged out of cars denied medical treatment and [1:33:56] untrained or poorly taught [1:33:59] Agent of the government makes our nation less safe [1:34:05] I'm gonna ask you have you seen cadets graduate despite using disproportionate force in [1:34:14] practical exercises and can you provide? [1:34:18] Example? [1:34:22] Yes senator. I have I have seen multiple examples of that in the training program [1:34:25] I have seen examples of cadets who have drawn their firearms on each other by accident [1:34:31] I have seen cadets and this is in the last day or two of training [1:34:36] So this at the end of the program [1:34:38] I have seen cadets make arrests of individuals that had committed no crime and for which there was no cause to make the arrest [1:34:46] Despite the cadet allegedly having been taught the law related to the crimes involved [1:34:51] I have seen officers apply excessive force [1:34:55] in these training scenarios, [1:34:56] where they have made arrest attempts [1:34:59] that involved drawing their firearm, using pepper spray, [1:35:03] various events that they were not authorized to do [1:35:06] and which were not justified by the circumstances [1:35:09] in which no objectively reasonable police officer [1:35:11] would have done what they did. [1:35:14] And they still graduated. [1:35:16] I have seen cadets, [1:35:19] and this was a moment that stuck out to me at the Academy. [1:35:22] I saw a cadet in a scenario where we had bystanders [1:35:26] who were allegedly filming or recording what was happening, [1:35:29] pull out pepper spray and pepper spray a bystander. [1:35:33] And when we asked the cadet afterwards why they did it, [1:35:36] their answer was, [1:35:37] it's because I've seen what we're doing in Minneapolis. [1:35:41] It doesn't matter what we teach them about the law, [1:35:43] if what they watch on television and on Reddit [1:35:45] and on the internet tells them [1:35:47] that they can get away with things. [1:35:48] The Academy can teach them till they were blue in the face. [1:35:52] But if they see that in practice, [1:35:54] the real rules are different [1:35:55] than what we're teaching them, [1:35:55] they follow the rules that they see. [1:35:58] Thank you. [1:35:59] I'm gonna yield to Representative Talib, [1:36:01] who I understand has a few more questions. [1:36:03] I may have just a couple afterwards. [1:36:09] Thank you so much again. [1:36:11] Ms. Gibson-Brown, [1:36:13] after your husband was violently taken from your home, [1:36:16] he was taken to the Whipple, [1:36:18] is that Whipple Federal Building? [1:36:19] Is that correct? [1:36:22] Did ICE agents take any photos of him while he was there? [1:36:26] He said they took trophy photos. [1:36:28] They were selfies on their personal cell phones [1:36:32] with thumbs up, is that correct? [1:36:34] Yes. [1:36:35] The day after your husband was illegally taken [1:36:37] from your home, a federal judge ordered [1:36:39] that he not be removed from Minnesota, is that correct? [1:36:42] Correct. [1:36:43] Is that what happened? [1:36:44] He went to Texas. [1:36:45] They took him to Texas. [1:36:46] No, they took him. [1:36:47] Yeah, they took him to Texas. [1:36:48] Kidnapped him and took him to Texas. [1:36:50] Yes. [1:36:51] Did ICE quickly realize their error on their own? [1:36:54] No. [1:36:55] No. [1:36:56] Your attorney had to confront Homeland Security, [1:36:58] is that correct? [1:36:59] Absolutely. [1:37:00] On January 15th, [1:37:01] a federal judge, [1:37:02] that, [1:37:03] a federal judge found [1:37:04] that ICE had violated your husband's rights [1:37:06] by illegally breaking into your home and detaining him, [1:37:09] and the judge ordered his release from the detention, [1:37:11] is that correct? [1:37:12] Yes. [1:37:13] But after your husband was released, [1:37:15] he was re-detained for a few hours [1:37:17] at the Whipple Federal Building, [1:37:19] is that correct? [1:37:20] Yes. [1:37:21] Who's responsible for ordering that your husband [1:37:23] be re-detained? [1:37:24] They said it came from the White House. [1:37:28] Now, per a federal agent, [1:37:31] we know for a fact the order came from Stephen Miller. [1:37:33] Did you know that? [1:37:34] Yes. [1:37:36] I also think it's really important because a lot of people have been talking about this. [1:37:40] Do you think all this would have not happened to you if they were unmasked? [1:37:47] You think if they were unmasked, [1:37:49] this would not have happened to you? [1:37:50] Would they still show up like this, [1:37:52] but just no masks on? [1:37:53] I think it would have happened either way. [1:37:55] Yeah. [1:37:56] Do you think it's about training or a culture? [1:38:00] Probably a culture. [1:38:01] I mean, [1:38:02] Mr. Schwenk, [1:38:03] it's a culture. [1:38:04] You could give all these memos, [1:38:05] because I'm telling you right now, [1:38:06] I've seen it. [1:38:07] We had sensitive locations policy and they still violated those. [1:38:11] I remember in my own community in Southwest Detroit over and over again. [1:38:15] So it's mind boggling that so many of my colleagues continue to say that it's about recruitment [1:38:21] and everything. [1:38:22] When I'm showing them over and over again, [1:38:24] look at how they're recruiting using like white supremacy music. [1:38:28] The posters, [1:38:29] I don't know if you know, [1:38:30] Ms. Gibson Brown. [1:38:31] I showed him a poster where it says, [1:38:33] come join us, [1:38:34] make home home again. [1:38:36] What does that mean? [1:38:37] Ms. Gibson Brown, [1:38:38] you know this. [1:38:39] What does that mean? [1:38:40] Exactly. [1:38:41] It's a sense of like some sort of white supremacy, [1:38:45] you know, [1:38:46] gang that's coming in and trying to, [1:38:49] you know, [1:38:50] they even have a poster of Uncle Tom or something and it has an arrow saying invasion. [1:38:56] Who's invading? [1:38:58] What are you talking about? [1:38:59] I only say this because everything that we went over, [1:39:02] I don't think it was about training. [1:39:05] I think it's about Stephen Miller and everyone else that created a culture within this department, [1:39:10] within ICE, [1:39:11] Border Patrol and everyone. [1:39:12] But these folks didn't just join Border Patrol or ICE, the people that killed Alex and Nicole, [1:39:20] Renee Nicole. [1:39:21] I don't understand how people continue to say this in committee that somehow if we just [1:39:27] take the masks off, we'll be saved. [1:39:29] They're going to shoot us anyways. [1:39:30] Put them, give them a few more trainings, give them some memos. [1:39:35] But if the culture went from within from all the presidential administrations, I've seen [1:39:40] it. [1:39:41] They just violate their own, even their own policies. [1:39:43] And there's no sense of accountability. [1:39:44] It is created in a culture of violence and fear and boy, oh boy, are people making money [1:39:50] from it. [1:39:51] That's, you know, I don't know if there's anything else that you wanted to share, Ms. [1:39:54] Gibson Brown, but I, I think it's important for people to understand just how cruel they [1:39:59] were to you and your family. [1:40:00] And even after they found out they were violated, they violated his rights, still the White [1:40:06] House tried to again, vilify him and dehumanize him and keep him again, even with the orders [1:40:12] from judges. [1:40:14] They had to really do something about it. [1:40:16] But those were, so in that case, it was a mess. [1:40:21] I know it's not an easy life, but it has been a very tough life. [1:40:26] How does this work? [1:40:27] How does this work for you? [1:40:28] I don't know. [1:40:29] I don't think that I would have done it if I had not been there and if you now are in [1:40:37] control of it, you're not going to have to worry about it. [1:40:42] What was the future like for you? [1:40:44] I thought it was going to be horrible. [1:40:46] I know it was. [1:40:47] It was. [1:40:48] they want us to do more but when we went to Texas they he requested to call me I [1:40:55] hadn't talked to him for like 24 hours and they told him he's in ICE custody [1:41:01] couldn't make any calls yeah I have people that I can't find for days they [1:41:08] don't even put them in the system when we say disappear that's what we mean and [1:41:11] I mean I couldn't find somebody a resident mind for 12 days they're not [1:41:16] following their own processes I don't even think that's what it's about I [1:41:20] think it's because it was created post 9-11 to do just what it's doing now and [1:41:27] it's it's something that I think our country needs to realize now it's being [1:41:30] turned of course on so many other communities across the country but as [1:41:34] somebody who grew up with 20 different ethnicities in my neighborhood they've [1:41:37] been doing it checkpoints racial profiling I don't know if you know this [1:41:42] chairman they even took a father from the front seat with his daughter who had [1:41:47] leukemia in the backseat that happened in 2010 so I just want everyone [1:41:52] to know this is not about only who's in the White House who's enabled it and [1:41:56] empowered it and expanded it it's about the fact that it was created on this [1:42:00] culture masks trainings body cams is not what's gonna stop it and that's what [1:42:06] scares me the most thank you represent tell you I'd like to ask you miss Gibson [1:42:15] Brown your neighbors know what happened to you correct yes have you talked to [1:42:20] them about it all yes what do they think about it [1:42:27] my neighbor across the street from me she was pepper-sprayed and they're just [1:42:35] all in fear they are very sweet sweet people I do love my neighborhood [1:42:43] unfortunately I have to move now because they won't renew the lease because of [1:42:50] this but it's just they've been very sweet bringing food cards and they've [1:42:59] been just absolutely wonderful but still a [1:43:02] A lot of them are immigrants on my street, so they're in fear, too, so they stay in. [1:43:09] They're more fearful now because they've seen what happened to you. [1:43:12] Yeah. [1:43:13] They're less likely to cooperate and help law enforcement, correct? [1:43:18] Yeah. [1:43:20] So this brutality is really so self-defeating. [1:43:25] Yeah. [1:43:26] And I'd like to ask you, Mr. Brunel, you were a federal prosecutor for 17 years. [1:43:35] I was the U.S. attorney in Connecticut, as you were a federal prosecutor here in the District of Columbia. [1:43:41] I was the attorney general of my state. [1:43:45] Law enforcement really depends on citizen cooperation, doesn't it? [1:43:52] Absolutely. [1:43:53] It depends on respect for the law and the credibility of prosecutors and police, correct? [1:44:02] At every stage of the process, yes. [1:44:04] What happens when that respect and credibility goes away? [1:44:10] Public safety suffers. [1:44:11] So all of these... [1:44:15] Tactics that may be regarded as hard-nosed and tough actually undermine the credibility and respect for the law and for law enforcement and the efforts to protect the public, correct? [1:44:31] Absolutely. [1:44:32] You can't protect and serve people that don't respect and trust you. [1:44:36] A paramilitary force, a national police force, as the Trump administration seems to be intent on establishing, violates the Constitution. [1:44:50] The founders never wanted... [1:44:51] A national police force. [1:44:54] Its tactics of breaking into people's homes, forcible entry without a judge finding probable cause, violates the Constitution. [1:45:06] They are teaching and training purposefully illegal policies, and they are making America less safe. [1:45:15] I think that is the unmistakable takeaway from today's hearing. [1:45:22] And I want to thank all of you. [1:45:24] And first, just finally, ask any of you whether you want... [1:45:30] Thank you. [1:45:30] ...to add anything. [1:45:32] We may have missed stuff in our questions that you meant to bring out. [1:45:37] Anyone who has any final thoughts or comments, I welcome that you do it. [1:45:45] You don't have to. [1:45:46] No pressure. [1:45:47] I would also just like to add that my husband had stated that when he was arrested, I guess, at the Whipple building, that they had someone who had scabies, and there were 40 people in one room, and they wouldn't take the guy who was infected out. [1:46:06] So they put people who probably had health issues at risk for catching something. [1:46:14] Thank you. [1:46:15] It was just deplorable. [1:46:20] Mr. Schwang. [1:46:21] Thank you, Senator. [1:46:23] I want to bring up a couple of things that I think are important to put on the record. [1:46:29] One of them is a fairly important issue. [1:46:32] There's this claim being made by the agency that ICE officers are getting essentially the same training they got before, because they compressed the schedule down but kept the hours, making it 12 hours a day. [1:46:45] The same thing they did in the same training they got before, because they compressed the schedule down but kept the hours, making it 12 hours a day. [1:46:46] And that's just flat out wrong. Cadets attend a five-day-a-week program that's nine hours. Eight [1:46:52] hours of lecture, one hour of lunch, and once a week they have a 10-hour session over the course [1:46:57] of their time at the academy. That's 42 days. It is not remotely close to the length of the academy [1:47:03] before. And the second thing I want to bring up is I want to address the representative Tlaib's [1:47:09] comments earlier about a culture. She's not wrong. She's not wrong that that kind of culture exists [1:47:15] in the agency. But if the problem was that simple, that we just had a bunch of people who don't like [1:47:23] foreigners and want to remove them from our country and was all white supremacists, it would [1:47:27] actually be a very easy problem to solve. You would just fire them all. But that's not the root [1:47:33] problem. The root problem, Senator, and I say this because there are hundreds if not thousands of ICE [1:47:41] officers who are immigrants themselves or the children of immigrants. I am the child of an [1:47:45] immigrant. The root problem is that we have trained a federal law department [1:47:51] law enforcement agency to go out and perform a job they are not equipped or trained to do. [1:47:58] We have sent out officers who are essentially designed and trained to be civil enforcement, [1:48:03] to do criminal enforcement, to be crowd control, to be a tool to be used by the administration [1:48:08] to bring fear into neighborhoods around the country. And the officers that they are recruiting [1:48:14] now are less trained and come from less capable backgrounds than the officers who were already [1:48:20] there. When we look at the Rene Good or the Alex [1:48:23] President, we see that they are not trained to do that. They are not trained to do that. [1:48:24] Those are officers who have been there for a while, who have knowledge of how to operate and do [1:48:31] what they need to do. The officers who entered into Ms. Gibson Brown's home from the pictures [1:48:35] you showed, probably experienced officers. Everything we've seen today, everything we've [1:48:41] seen through today, has been done by officers who should know better, who should know at the end of [1:48:47] the day that it's their personal responsibility to uphold the Constitution, that they took an [1:48:51] oath to it. And I'm going to tell you right now, Senator, that at the academy, [1:48:56] we took out the class that tells the officers they have an oath to the Constitution. We took out [1:49:02] the class that tells them they have a duty to uphold the Constitution. We took out the class [1:49:07] that tells them that they have personal responsibility, that at the end of the day, [1:49:14] no matter what orders they get from their supervisors, it's on them to do the right thing. [1:49:20] And that's the root problem. These cadets and these new officers don't have any firmament, [1:49:25] any basis on which to stand. They don't know what they don't. [1:49:31] They don't know. Thank you. [1:49:33] Thank you. Mr. Brunel. [1:49:37] Well, let me second that very eloquent summary that Mr. Schwenk just provided. [1:49:44] I guess my parting thoughts are that whether you're a good apple or a bad apple in the [1:49:52] organization, you still need checks and balances. You still need objective oversight. [1:50:00] Constitutional democracy is about checks and balances, and they come in various forms. [1:50:04] And elections are only, [1:50:05] one type. The Constitution is a critical check on government power. States are a critical check on [1:50:12] federal overreach. Courts enforce the rule of law. Congress passes laws and has the power of the purse. [1:50:19] We need transparency. We need oversight. We need a merit-based professional civil service. [1:50:25] The press, and of course the people themselves, direct protest and people exercising their First [1:50:30] Amendment rights, these are all part of a mosaic of democratic checks and balances that keep [1:50:36] tyranny at bay and keep good people in line as well. They're foundational elements of our political [1:50:42] system that help make our country free and secure. They are the things that DHS should be working to [1:50:50] protect and defend. They're the things that DHS itself should be modeling for the rest of us. [1:50:57] Instead, it seems too often they're doing the opposite. The policy of breaking into [1:51:02] homes without a judicial warrant is one of many signs that DHS has lost its way. [1:51:08] DHS has forgotten its true mission. Thank you. [1:51:12] Thank you. You all have provided really powerful evidence that we need reform in this [1:51:21] lawless, out-of-control agency, and that our insistence on common-sense reforms is absolutely [1:51:31] vital and well-grounded in facts. As Ronald Reagan said, facts are a stubborn thing. [1:51:39] We'll hear a lot tomorrow night, I'm sure. A lot of rhetoric. But the reality [1:51:44] is that we're going to have to do something about it. We're going to have to do something about it. [1:51:45] We're going to have to do something about it. We're going to have to do something about it. [1:51:45] The reality is what you have told us today, the truth that you have told us about this [1:51:53] paramilitary force that is following orders and training that has to stop. But right now, [1:52:04] literally, again, as we speak, agents are being trained to do illegal misconduct. Close to 4,000 [1:52:17] during this fiscal year, a total of 12,000, according to ICE's budget, eventually will be [1:52:25] the increase in its workforce. [1:52:26] Training, recruitment are the lifeblood of any agency, especially in law enforcement. [1:52:40] And a law enforcement that is reckless and lawless is making America less safe. [1:52:50] I want to thank all of you for being here today and thank everyone who has been watching. Thanks.