From Federalist Society to Democrat: George Conway's Political Reckoning

[0:00] You know, there are two reactions to Trump that you could have, and you can see how some people had one and some people had other. [0:05] It's like nails on a chalkboard. [0:08] Some people kind of can get used to the screeching and the noise, and others, it drives them to do something to leave the room. [0:15] And I was one of the people, it didn't take much. [0:18] And ever since then, it's, you know, I rethink, I've rethought everything. [0:24] Rethought everything about my understanding of human nature, rethought everything about what, you know, what the purpose of the whole governmental enterprise is. [0:33] Rethought everything about, you know, what's the importance of, like, empathy. [0:39] George Conway is not your typical Democratic congressional candidate. [0:48] In fact, until just a few months ago, he wasn't a Democrat at all. [0:53] And now he's running to represent New York's 12th District as one. [0:57] For decades, he was a conservative Republican, a top lawyer, a proud member of the Federalist Society, and someone who celebrated Donald Trump's 2016 victory. [1:08] He was even considered for a role in Trump's Justice Department. [1:13] But instead of joining the administration, Conway became one of its fiercest and most relentless critics. [1:20] That opposition didn't just come to define his public life, it also reshaped his personal one. [1:25] Until a few years ago, he was married to Kellyanne Conway, who managed Trump's first campaign and became one of his most loyal advisors. [1:35] Their political divide played out in real time in full public view, with Donald Trump himself once calling Conway a stone-cold loser and husband from hell. [1:46] Now, after years on the sidelines as a legal and political commentator, [1:50] he's stepping into the arena himself in a race that's drawing outsized attention. [1:55] George Conway, welcome. [1:57] Thank you for having me. [1:58] I'm really excited to talk to you and about your transformation, George. [2:02] Because you're a lifelong Republican, a former card-carrying member of the Federalist Society. [2:09] You actually cried tears of joy when Donald Trump first won the presidency in 2016. [2:16] And now... [2:17] Well, I have an excuse for that. [2:18] Well, okay, you're going to explain all of this to me. [2:21] Because here you are, a freshly minted Democrat as of last December, and you're running for office as a Democrat in New York's 12th District. [2:31] Having said all that, can you understand why people are a tad skeptical, George? [2:36] Oh, absolutely. [2:37] You know, I was a Republican at a time. [2:41] I became a Republican at a time when the world was very, very different. [2:44] In 1980, I was in college, and I was a kind of pro-national defense guy and a free market guy. [2:55] Never bought into all the social stuff. [2:58] But that was a... [2:58] What do you mean you never bought into the social stuff? [3:00] Never bought into the social right wing of the Republican Party. [3:04] So you never were anti-choice, for example? [3:07] No, no, no. [3:07] I was never anti-choice. [3:09] And in the 80s, it was just a different time where, you know, Republicans actually respected the rule of law. [3:15] I think a lot of young people don't remember that, where you had, you know, tax reform in 1986 that was bipartisan, and Ronald Reagan signed it, and Chuck Schumer in the House voted for it. [3:25] And it was different, different times, and, you know, I was just sort of a Republican. [3:32] I practiced law here in the city for 30 years, and I married a political consultant, Kellyanne Conway, who then ended up running Trump's 2016 campaign. [3:44] And, you know, it's the lifelong ambition of any political consultant to run a successful presidential campaign, and I was happy for him. [3:54] Problem was, he wasn't the guy I had hoped he would be, and I should have, you know, in hindsight, you know, I feel guilty for not having really realized that before. [4:06] But I always thought that somebody who's elected to become president of the United States would think that there's something more important than them when they assume office. [4:17] And I thought that one thing that would happen, even with a guy who was inexperienced and, you know, kind of difficult, would be that the people around him would act as a check. [4:30] And I saw very, very quickly after the inauguration that that trip wasn't the case. [4:37] I was slated to become head of the civil division of the United States Department of Justice, which is a fabulous job for me as a civil litigator. [4:46] It's probably the biggest law firm in the world, and I was involved in picking people to work for me. [4:53] And then I realized I'm watching this, excuse me, can I use the word shit show? [4:57] Yes, you can. [4:58] Please, feel free. [5:00] And I came to the conclusion, like, there's something wrong with this guy. [5:04] There's something wrong here. [5:06] So this was in 2016 or when? [5:09] In 2016, right, the election was won. [5:12] And then Trump and my, basically, I think my ex-wife won that election for him because he was really headed nowhere until she came into the picture. [5:23] And then in 2017, I thought this was my chance. [5:26] I did my time at 30 years at a law firm, and you know what that's like here in the city. [5:30] It's a hard grind, and I thought it was my time to do some public service. [5:33] And I was slated, as I said, to become head of the civil division of the Department of Justice. [5:39] And I got to the point where, you know, I'd done the background check, and I started delaying doing the financial disclosure forms because I'm watching the craziness. [5:50] And it wasn't even that crazy compared to today. [5:52] And I just said, there's just something wrong here. [5:56] And I realized, it's just, I couldn't do it. [6:01] And I took yourself out of the running? [6:02] I took myself out of the running. [6:03] In fact, I remember the day I did it. [6:07] Well, not the day I did it. [6:08] The day I decided to do it. [6:10] I worked midtown at Wachtell Lift in a 52nd and 6th, and I was really, really struggling over, do I really want to do this? [6:16] Because I thought I wanted to do it. [6:18] And I decided I'm going to go home early because I really got to think about this. [6:22] And I did, as I went home, I was listening to WCBS 880 crossing the GW Bridge, and I heard the news break. [6:36] I remember the day, it was like the sun was setting, kind of, and I heard the news break that Robert Mueller had been appointed special counsel by Deputy Attorney General Rob Rosenstein. [6:50] And I realized, okay, this is ridiculous. [6:54] I got my wife working in the White House, and this guy, this crazy man, is going to be at war with the Justice Department for the next two or three years. [7:01] Do I really want to do this? [7:02] And I decided no. [7:03] And that sort of was the start of kind of a real reflection, self-reflection, and also reflection of where our politics are, and also just trying to figure out what was wrong with this man, which I ultimately realized was an area, understanding that was an area that I'd never really studied, which is abnormal psychology. [7:27] And I ended up writing an article in The Atlantic in 2019, 11,000 words, explaining why he's psychologically disordered. [7:37] You can just see the checklist from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders and why that's inconsistent with what the framers intended a president to be. [7:47] That's my legal expertise about that. [7:49] And so it's been kind of a—for me, it's been an exploration of, like, how did this all happen? [7:55] How did this all go wrong? [7:57] How did we get to the point where we have such a man as president who absolutely cares nothing about anything but himself? [8:04] And how so many people followed him and how we now have a Republican Party that isn't a political party anymore, but it was a cult. [8:16] I left it in 2018 because it seemed like a cult. [8:18] And it was nothing compared to what it is today. [8:21] And, you know, a party that—where, you know, they want to determine the outcome of media transactions. [8:31] They want to control 10 percent of intel. [8:35] The government is just taking people off the streets without due process. [8:39] I mean, it is just so beyond anything that could—it is not even—it's not even conservative anymore. [8:47] But the conservatives today are really the Democrats who are trying to conserve the institutions of our republic. [8:54] And that—it's just such a different world. [8:58] And my place in it is different because of that. [9:01] And my understanding of it is different because of that. [9:05] I mean, you—there were kind of two reactions. [9:07] I know I'm talking too much, but— [9:09] No, please. [9:09] You know, there are two reactions to Trump that you could have. [9:12] And you can see how some people had one and some people had other. [9:15] It's like nails on a chalkboard. [9:17] Some people kind of can get used to the screeching and the noise. [9:21] And others, it drives them to do something to leave the room. [9:25] And I was one of the people that—it didn't take much. [9:28] And ever since then, it's—you know, I rethink—I've rethought everything. [9:34] Rethought everything about my understanding of human nature. [9:37] Rethought everything about what—you know, what the purpose of the whole governmental enterprise is. [9:43] Rethought everything about, you know, what's the importance of, like, empathy. [9:49] And all these things. [9:51] I mean, it was really just a lot of things over the last, you know, eight years or so that have led me to where I am today. [10:02] And now today, the reason why I'm running for Congress is the feeling that we have not done enough to fight this man. [10:08] We have become too accepting of this man. [10:10] I've been banging the drums about him for years. [10:13] And I thought, you know, somebody like me, coming from my political perspective, would cause others, especially people on the right, to say, yeah, we have to—this is not for us. [10:24] This is not what we're meant to be. [10:27] And it didn't happen. [10:29] It's still—it's—I think it's going to happen in some ways soon. [10:33] But I always felt that even Democrats have become too accepting of the current circumstances because it's like, oh, we tried impeaching him twice. [10:42] We can't do anything about him. [10:43] We have to wait him out. [10:45] And my whole campaign is premised on the notion that we can't survive another 32 months of what we've seen for the last 16. [10:57] Without some safeguards. [10:59] Without— [10:59] Which is why you are running. [11:01] Safeguards are getting rid of him altogether. [11:03] And I know that's a tall order, but we—you have to try. [11:07] You have to try. [11:08] There are so many questions I have from that one answer. [11:11] That was a long answer. [11:11] I'm sorry. [11:12] No, no, no. [11:12] It's okay. [11:13] So you're saying if the Democrats take the House, that impeachment should be the first thing on the agenda? [11:20] It should be one of the primary things on the agenda, and it should be a focus of the agenda for a couple of reasons. [11:26] One is just accountability generally, creating the record, explaining to the American people why this is not the way government is supposed to work and how we think government is supposed to work, that it's not supposed to be government of the boss, by the boss, and for the boss. [11:44] It's supposed to be government of the people, by the people, and for the people. [11:47] And this is essentially a criminal enterprise, what he's turned the government into in so many different ways. [11:52] And I just think that people have just gotten too used to it. [11:58] I think among a lot of Democrats, there's this kind of what psychologists would call learned helplessness, where you just think, well, we can't do anything about it. [12:08] We have to wait until 2029. [12:10] And we have to, you know, we have to, in New York, with some people, it's just like, well, we just have to do our things in New York and not worry about the rest of the country. [12:20] And it does not work that way. [12:21] It does not work that way. [12:22] Our democracy, we are one country. [12:24] We are, our democracy can rise or fall on what this man is doing. [12:27] And it's not just a democracy. [12:29] It's not just the abstract rule of law, which, you know, obviously that's something that highly motivated me as a career lawyer who's litigated constitutional cases. [12:40] It's something, it directly affects our lives. [12:43] I mean, you know, the stability of our economy depends on the belief in the rule of law that people think we have a stable legal system. [12:50] And it's hard to believe that today. [12:53] You're a very smart guy, George. [12:54] You went to Harvard, magna cum laude, you studied biochemical science, you've got a JD from Yale, you're editor of the Yale Law Journal. [13:06] So you are a highly intelligent guy. [13:09] So forgive me if I am skeptical about you shedding tears in 2016. [13:15] A lot of people by 2016 knew exactly who Donald Trump was. [13:21] knew about his failed businesses, knew about his failure to pay people, knew about his, you know, how can I say, unappealing sort of romantic forays, if you want to say. [13:41] I don't think they knew about Jeffrey Epstein. [13:44] But listen, everybody knew this guy was kind of a schmuck. [13:48] Yeah. [13:49] So why didn't you? [13:50] I thought he was kind of a schmuck. [13:53] But I mean, first of all, let me say mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. [13:57] I mean, I wanted to believe the best. [14:02] I wanted to believe that there was hope in some man who wasn't, who was that imperfect. [14:06] Look, I'm not, I'm just telling you, I just, I wanted to believe, you know. [14:11] What did you think this, he was exactly what the country needed? [14:14] Somebody, an outsider? [14:15] No, not at all. [14:15] He was the last, he was the last choice. [14:17] No, but at the time when you shed tears. [14:19] When I shed tears, it was happy for my wife. [14:23] Because it was, it was something that she had poured her heart and soul into. [14:27] I mean, and. [14:28] But you must have been on some level, at least kind of happy for the country. [14:34] It wasn't just about your wife, was it? [14:35] I was happy for the country because I thought, you know, you get, you know, elections you get caught up in, right? [14:41] And you think, and, and, you know, there've been so, so many years of like, hating on Hillary, I have to say, that didn't make, you know, in retrospect, it's like, oh my God, it would, I would never have voted for Trump again. [14:54] I mean, and, I mean, I didn't. [14:58] And I guess, I guess. [14:59] You didn't in 2020. [15:01] And I, you know, and I gave a million dollars to the, to the Biden-Harris campaign. [15:05] In 2024, it's like, it, part of it, the thing that bothered me the most is I didn't see it. [15:14] And that's, it really aided me, which is why I started this foray into this psychology. [15:23] And it's why I became part of what, because reason why I became so outspoken is, you know, I, I, we make mistakes. [15:30] I made a mistake, it was a horrible mistake in judgment. [15:33] Absolutely. [15:34] And I, I own that. [15:36] I hope to try to make up for it. [15:38] I think I have in some ways, but I don't, you know, I, I, I let kind of like what I wanted to be true that affects my judgment on what was true. [15:52] And I think that's, that's something in life that we all do as human beings. [15:56] And I, that's the case in which I really did it. [16:00] And I deeply came to regret it. [16:02] And, um, I think the problem for, we have in America right now with a lot of people, millions of Americans is they don't want to recognize what they deep down know. [16:15] And I think that includes a lot of people at the upper reaches of the Republican structure. [16:22] And I think it also is the people in the diners in Peoria, so to speak. [16:27] And I think it's a very human thing to basically say, I'm, I'm not going to admit error. [16:33] I don't, I don't want to admit error. [16:35] I didn't make a mistake. [16:37] I'm just going to ignore the facts that, that are unpleasant to me. [16:41] Um, and it's much harder to come to grips with, with reality. [16:45] And I'm glad that I did it sooner rather than later. [16:48] It's just my nature. [16:49] I mean, maybe, maybe it was my scientific training in some extent. [16:52] The legal training or something, it's like, it's like, look, this isn't the way I thought it was. [16:56] And, and when you think when, and, and my instinct, when something doesn't come out the way it is, is I go back and I kind of analyze it. [17:05] And I'm just saying, okay, where did I, where did, what, what assumptions did I make that were wrong? [17:09] And what judgments did I make that were wrong? [17:11] And what was, what was I thinking? [17:13] And, and I spent, I have spent a lot of time over the last eight years parsing through that, both in my own mind and with my own feelings. [17:21] And with the external reality of, of what political life is in, in America today. [17:30] Your first answer, you were rhetorically asking, you know, how we got here. [17:35] Yeah. [17:35] So I'll bite. [17:37] George, how did we get here? [17:40] How do we have a president like this man? [17:45] It, it, it is something I can explain him better than I can explain that because I, you know, it, it, it's very simple to understand him. [17:56] Once you understand his psychological disorders, you understand his moral failings. [18:01] You understand, basically it's just, he's a man with no empathy, no conscience, no remorse, purely someone who cares only about himself and what benefits him and what's, what strokes his ego at any moment. [18:18] As for the toxic mix that allowed him to fester out of, I, I, I mean, I think part of it is that there's a lot of resentment in the country. [18:31] There was, still is, about, you know, feeling left out of, I don't know, wealth or. [18:42] Upward mobility. [18:43] Upward mobility, and I think, you know, that he was, there's a lot of resentment of elites of all sorts, notwithstanding that he ultimately is a form of elite, a most corrupt form of elite that you can imagine. [18:57] And so I think one of the things that happens too is with a man like him, a narcissistic sociopath who is inherently, you know, authoritarian by his own psychological nature. [19:08] I mean, he's not, he doesn't understand anything about history, so he doesn't really, he's not really copying anybody, but instinctively he will, he accomplishes power, he acquires power by dividing, by creating enemies. [19:24] And that's what he does in his own mind. [19:26] Either every, people are for him or against him because all he cares about is himself. [19:30] And then if you are with him, you know, the people, people who go with him feel the same, they, they join his ego and they see, they see, they hate the people who he considers outsiders. [19:47] And it's that kind of, I mean, that's why he's so divisive, that's why he's so dangerous, that's why he's so toxic in terms of racism and, and anti-Semitism and, and all sorts, you know, and misogyny. [20:01] I mean, 2024 is the most misogynistic election I could ever, you could ever imagine. [20:06] And, you know, anti-gay, anti-minority and everything is like you, he's trying to, he, he invites people to say, to, to feel that they are superior by hating on other people. [20:19] I was going to say, he gives people permission to hate. [20:22] That's exactly what I've, and that's the way I put it, is basically he has created a permission structure for people to be their worst selves. [20:32] And, you know, we are not, we all have, there's a duality to all of us. [20:37] We can be kind, we can be angry and hateful, we can be kind and empathetic and giving. [20:44] And he has taught Americans that it's okay to be selfish and spiteful and hateful and angry and resentful, that it's okay. [21:00] And that is the most toxic thing that I think he's done to the country. [21:07] And it's the, it's, it, it's the nature of, you know, his psychological profile, which is the nature of the psychological profiles of, frankly, evil authoritarians throughout history. [21:21] This permission to hate, though, does that explain how and why so many people, you know, I think you've hit on something that people don't like to admit they made a mistake. [21:34] People are also, I think, hear affirmation instead of information in our current media landscape. [21:42] But they're also very tribalistic, right? [21:45] And your political choice has really become your identity. [21:49] Right. [21:49] And has given people a sense of belonging. [21:52] Right. [21:52] So, so what are the other factors? [21:55] I'm curious that you've analyzed since you put so much thought into this, George, that can help explain not only how we got here, but why people are so steadfast in their support of him. [22:08] Not everyone. [22:09] Some people obviously have grown disenchanted, but he still has these hardcore people for whom he can do no wrong. [22:16] And I think, and I think, I'm not necessarily a fan of Jim Comey, although I think he's been treated outrageously by this administration, but he said something that I thought was quite profound once about Donald Trump back in 2017. [22:29] He's a man who eats your soul, but he's a man who eats your soul bit by bit by bit. [22:35] And what happens with Trump is he sucks people in to this permission structure or this world that he occupies. [22:47] And people deceive themselves into thinking that it's good and true. [22:54] And then he does the next thing that's bad. [22:59] And people go and they look aside. [23:05] They look, they look, they look away at that or they pretend it's not real or they pretend it's not true or they pretend it's justified. [23:11] Or they make excuses or they make excuses and they do that often enough. [23:18] And in order to recognize that you've taken all those steps to become a different person or person you didn't want to be or wouldn't have thought yourself to be, you have to look yourself in the mirror. [23:32] If you admit one thing about him that's bad, then you start having to admit other things. [23:38] And that's a tall order emotionally because we all think of ourselves, we all, everybody wants to think of themselves as a good person. [23:47] But when you allow that kind of, when you accept that kind of evil, you do it once, you do it a second time. [23:56] You know, it's kind of like, it's kind of like, you know, how financial frauds occur. [24:03] This is, maybe this is the wrong metaphor, but where somebody makes a bad bet and then they, then they fix the books to, and they, to cover up the bad bet to make up for it. [24:13] That's what happens. [24:14] You become indebted to, there's kind of this debt to morality that's built up and you realize you don't want to admit how far you've gone, how far you've strayed from what is, what is right. [24:28] And that I think has happened to a lot of Americans. [24:31] And I think, and then you see some people who kind of break through that, you know, like, I mean, I think Marjorie Taylor Greene actually is, since I don't think she's perfect by any means. [24:42] I think she's a lot, has a lot to answer for. [24:44] But I do think she just, she broke through that. [24:48] I think some people break through it and they realize they just, they can't do it anymore. [24:54] But other people just don't. [24:59] They don't get to that point and they just hide and they just try to, they cocoon themselves into watching Fox News or they turn the news off and they, they deceive themselves. [25:09] But now it's becoming harder and harder because he's become worse and worse. [25:18] And you can't deny the prices that are being paid at the gas pump. [25:23] And you can't deny that he's lying to you almost about everything that affects your daily lives. [25:29] And so I think they're getting to the breaking point, which is sort of relates to, you know, my theory about how we need to address Trump in the next couple of years. [25:40] You had a very public falling out politically and matrimonially, if you will, with your ex-wife, Kellyanne Conway, who, as you said, has been a prominent orbit, a prominent person in, in Trump's orbit for quite a while. [25:57] Is she still a diehard Trumper? [26:01] I'm not going to characterize that. [26:05] I mean, she's the mother of my children, so I'm not going to. [26:08] I'm just curious how she feels politically. [26:11] Is she still? [26:11] I don't. [26:12] It's not a subject that I often bring up anymore with her. [26:16] It's just not a productive subject. [26:18] But last time you checked, George. [26:19] I mean, she is in that orbit. [26:25] And that's what she does. [26:28] And I, I, and she goes on Fox News and I don't watch it and. [26:34] Defends him. [26:35] And defends him or sometimes she doesn't. [26:38] Often one of the things she does really well, which she did, is to change the subject. [26:43] I mean, I think there are a lot of, I'm not going to speak about her specifically, but I do think that he has, as Comey said, eaten people's souls bit by bit and made it hard for them to really turn around. [26:56] And say, how did I get here? [27:00] Because it's such a emotionally wrenching thing to say, oh my God, how did I do this? [27:07] Why did I do this? [27:08] How, how was I so wrong? [27:10] Why did I allow myself to do that? [27:12] I feel like if you want to understand Donald Trump, you should understand Roy Cohn, who I think lives rent free and in Donald Trump's brain. [27:20] And I don't think people realize that sort of Roy Cohn made Donald Trump who he is in many ways, didn't he? [27:29] Yeah, he was like the, you know, Donald Trump was always going to be a sociopath, but Roy Cohn was like the sociopath teacher, right? [27:38] He was the mentor, you know, kind of like the Sith Lord or the senior Sith Lord to the junior Sith Lord. [27:43] And, and there's this great quote, I think I might've put it in my Atlantic article where Cohn said admiringly of Donald Trump, Trump pisses ice water in, or something like that, where he has ice water in his veins. [28:04] And it's just, you know, they, they taught, he, he learned how to be absolutely dishonest and ruthless and from, from Cohn, but I think he was going to get there anyway. [28:18] He just needed, he just modeled himself after that. [28:22] Roy Cohn, I think used to say, if you tell a lie enough times, people are going to start to believe you. [28:28] And I think, I guess my brain went to Roy Cohn when you were talking about your ex-wife, because she's famously said, there is such a thing as alternative facts. [28:38] I'll never forget that. [28:40] Does she really believe that? [28:42] I don't, I think. [28:43] Or was she just caught in the moment? [28:45] I think she was, I think it was sort of a, it was more of a verbal slip because I think what, I mean, her explanation for it has, was always that, well, you know, it's like, she's a, she's a lawyer by training and as, as am I. [29:00] And, you know, when you have briefs after a trial, for example, you have one side points out the facts that support their case and the other side points out the facts that support their case. [29:12] Now, the problem with that particular use of the phrase at that moment was, the subject at issue was how many people were on the mall on January 20th, 2017. [29:25] And you could, there are photographs, right? [29:28] And that's why it, it, it came off the wrong way. [29:32] And, and, and it, and it, but I, you know, but that's the problem with defending Donald Trump. [29:38] That's the position that he puts you in where you, you know, you can't, even conceding one tiny bit of the truth undermines his position very badly because he's basically consists of a, of a, of a, of a house of cards of, of lies. [30:01] And, of course, if he's, if you question his unreality, his lies in any way, and you're working for him, that's, that's the end of your influence with him. [30:12] I wonder how, you know, here you were married to Kellyanne, and I, I totally respect, I don't want to ask you personal questions. [30:18] This is more sort of a philosophical question. [30:21] You all have four kids together, right? [30:24] Yes. [30:24] And, you know, to see, obviously, you're a person who said, I can't do this anymore. [30:30] It, it is too repugnant, too morally suspect for me to continue supporting some, a person like this who I think is dangerous. [30:40] Right. [30:41] And potentially. [30:42] Right. [30:42] And I was, I was publicly beating that drum by 2019. [30:45] Yeah. [30:45] An existential threat to democracy. [30:47] And yet your wife still is a believer. [30:50] However, I'm just, I'm fascinated by how the two of you could see the world so differently and how you, as somebody, again, who was married and had four kids together, make sense of it. [31:06] I, I don't think even to this day I fully made sense of it. [31:10] I mean, obviously my situation was unique in the sense that she was so public, right? [31:18] She was a, she was the face of the Trump administration for so long, well, long before I, you know, became, ever went on, for example, went on TV. [31:27] I didn't go on TV until like 2020. [31:29] I didn't wrote stuff. [31:30] I would quietly sat in my office, wrote stuff, wrote op-eds for the Washington Post. [31:35] And, um, but you go around the country and a lot of families are like that, um, including husbands and wives. [31:46] Um, you know, there are people and their mothers and people and their brothers and you have a situation where somebody who really sees Trump for what they are, what he is, loves somebody or has children with somebody or, um, is friendly with somebody or has some long-term positive relationship with somebody who has kind of left, left the fold on, on reality on this. [32:22] Yes. And it is the most difficult thing for family members. And this is, this is, this is happening across America. I mean, I know, I know, I know, I, um, you know, I know some liberal politicians. I know a liberal politician. I'm not going to name his name. [32:38] I've become friendly with in the city. Who's, who's, who's, who's, who's, who's loves his parents and, um, his parents love him, but you know, they're Trumpers and it's, it's, it's, it's a very, very difficult thing. [32:53] And I think, um, I do think it's, there's a lot to do with identity. Once you sort of, you, you think of yourself as a Republican, you think of yourself as something and it's as a Democrat, or you think of, and people have fixed views of themselves and fixed views of what that means. [33:12] And sometimes it just goes off the rails. Um, and I, you know, it's something, one of these days I'd like to write a book about it. I think it's, it's a, it's a fascinating subject. [33:25] I mean, I think there are all sorts of explanations for different levels of people in the sort of the Republican ecosystem. There's some people, a lot of it could be financial careers. Okay. I mean, like someone like, like my ex-wife has all these relationships and, you know, she can't really afford to be an outcast. [33:44] I, I, well, I think she could, from a purely economic standpoint, I think she could, but from, but if you, if you, if you turn away from that, then basically all your connections are gone. All your influence is gone. [34:02] You're an island, kind of. [34:03] You become an island. And then even then, like, who are your friends? Your friends, you know, are all of a sudden the people on the other side going to embrace you? No. Right. They're not going to say, oh, good for you. [34:15] No. For learning, for, for turning finally seven or eight years later. And it's, that's part of what you're asking a couple questions ago. We're like, why are there so many people still left? And I think that's, that's a problem. [34:32] And I think one of the things we have to be able to do, those of us who, you know, want to get to a better place. And those of us who kind of either originally saw the light from the beginning or became convinced like me, like, you know, or about was relatively early on in my defense. [34:54] We have to understand that psychology and work with it. [35:00] And it's like that Saturday Night Live skit from a few weeks ago with the mom, where the mom, did you see that, where the mom is, is finally kind of had it with Trump. [35:11] She's kind of finally had it with Trump and she gets her family together. [35:14] And then she's got like two or three kids and she's going to say to them, I have something to say. [35:18] I don't want you to comment on it. [35:22] And, and she's basically says, I think I may have been wrong about, and you know, she's kind of spinning out Donald Trump and the kids are like, we don't, stop, stop. [35:32] And I think, I think we have to with, I mean, I'm not saying this about the people who have committed actual crimes, you know, the, the bad people who are really responsible for doing bad things or launching an insurrection or committing crimes in the Caribbean, bombing innocent fishermen or things like that. [35:57] So many others are shooting protesters in the face in Minneapolis, but for ordinary Americans who may be your neighbors or your, your brother or your sister or your father or your, you know, son or daughter, you know, you have to accept, you have to give them some rope, give them some space and say, okay, I'm glad you see that now. [36:28] Give them some grace. [36:29] Grace, and that's exactly the word. [36:33] Grace is exactly the word. [36:36] I wanted to ask you about running for office. [36:41] So obviously you've spent the last five years or so writing, doing a little railing to George. [36:49] No, I started. [36:50] And now you're running. [36:51] Yeah, I started. [36:52] You went from writing to railing to running. [36:54] And what was the moment that made you decide, you know what? [36:58] I need to step off the sidelines and throw my hat in the ring. [37:02] You know, there was the 2024 election where I really worked. [37:05] I gave a lot from trying to help the Biden and Harris campaign. [37:13] I made a huge contribution on the theory that I want my children to inherit a democracy more than they need the money that I was giving to that campaign. [37:26] But they're going to be all right anyway. [37:28] And I formed my own super PAC to point out. [37:35] It was called the anti-psychopath PAC. [37:38] And you know who the psychopath is. [37:40] And it was designed to basically point out the psychological disorders of this man who now is, you know, the whole world can see it again once again. [37:51] And I did all that, and it wasn't enough. [37:56] And I kind of was in 2025. [37:57] I was kind of like, what do I do now? [38:00] I go. [38:01] I can help. [38:01] I have friends who are litigating cases, and that's great. [38:05] I thought about writing a book about Trump's psychological state. [38:10] In fact, I came close to getting a deal. [38:14] And then I think somebody got scared about Trump. [38:17] But I, you know, I was sort of struggling, and I was doing a lot of media. [38:24] And I wasn't writing as much as I did early on because it's, you know, TV can be a time suck. [38:31] I'm sure you know that better than anybody. [38:34] And, you know, it's like writing requires thought. [38:37] And, like, really kind of, it requires me to just sit and think. [38:41] Because I was really feeling like I'm not really doing anything useful. [38:45] And at the same time, I'm watching, and I'm feeling that we're all not doing enough, right? [38:51] I mean, I think one of the things that has been great that's happened in the last 16 months and 17 months now is the No Kings movement and people marching on the streets. [39:04] But there's no connection to, it seems very disconnected in some ways from our electoral politics. [39:09] And I was, you know, I was thinking, like, we need to be tougher on this guy. [39:19] But how can I help? [39:20] I don't know. [39:21] And then one day, you know, and I think one way I was trying to help is I was supporting candidates and trying to, I was one of the candidates I became friendly with. [39:34] And she's running for Senate in South Carolina. [39:37] Her name is Annie Andrews. [39:38] Right. [39:39] She's a pediatrician. [39:40] She's a pediatrician. [39:41] She's just an amazing person. [39:44] And I can't stand Lindsey Graham. [39:46] He's the lowest world. [39:49] And. [39:49] I wonder what John McCain would think of Lindsey Graham. [39:52] I can't even imagine. [39:54] That's what that, we could do a whole podcast up then. [39:56] And I thought, oh, it's great. [39:58] This is like, that's that, I want to help these people. [40:01] But at the same, like, I really admire these people. [40:03] And I thought more and more about, isn't this great what they're doing? [40:06] But, you know, I can't do that. [40:07] I don't have any place to run. [40:08] And I don't, you know, I'm never interested in, I mean, I've always been a political junkie, but I never thought of myself as a glad and or a retail politician or it's something that I would want to do. [40:19] And then one day, a friend of mine was complaining about how Democrats weren't doing enough. [40:29] It was in the wake of the Senate approving an interim spending package, I think, in November and suggested to me that I run. [40:40] And I said, no, I wouldn't do that. [40:44] In fact, I met my current girlfriend over the summer and she asked me, do you ever think of running for public office? [40:48] And she asked me that in June. [40:51] So I'm crazy. [40:52] It's like 11 months ago. [40:53] Now we're going to have a June primary this year. [40:55] And I told her, no effing way I would ever do that. [40:58] But then this day in November when my friend said, you should run. [41:04] And where should I, I said, I, you know, where am I going to run? [41:08] I was at that time, I lived here in New York for and worked here for 30 years. [41:15] And then I moved to Washington. [41:17] How long did you live in D.C.? [41:19] In D.C.? [41:20] What happened was I... [41:21] Or at the Washington area. [41:22] Really from 2017 to 2025, but I always came back here and, you know, I was still working at the law firm for a couple of years after that. [41:39] I was going to say you were still practicing law here. [41:41] Right. [41:41] I mean, I spent 30 years practicing law here, lived in the city and owned an apartment for 20 to 25 years, [41:47] and then moved out to the suburbs in New Jersey for a few years before we went to Washington. [41:55] And, you know, my friend said, you should run. [41:56] And I said, oh, I like my congressman, who is Jamie Raskin, who I love. [42:01] I mean, Jamie Raskin's one of my favorite people. [42:04] Well, I could see you guys must, like, chat about constitutional law. [42:07] Oh, I love him so much. [42:09] I said when I first started thinking about running, I said, I want to be his wingman. [42:13] And I still aspire to do that. [42:16] And then my friend who lives on the east side said, why don't you run here? [42:23] Why don't you run what seat? [42:24] And I'm like, what? [42:25] And it's like an Adler seat. [42:26] And I realized, wait, Adler's west side, east side. [42:31] You know, it's like it used to be. [42:32] You know, I remember, you know, I lived mostly on the east side, and there was a separate district. [42:37] And I go to the Almanac of American Politics, and I look up the district, and I say, wait, this is my district. [42:43] Okay? [42:43] This is where I spent, you know, 30 years. [42:46] This is where I had my career. [42:48] My four children were born, well, two of them were born square in the district at Langone Medical Center. [42:54] And two of them were born one block away at Mount Sinai. [42:58] Okay, this is like, I have no, you know, I have more connection here than the district I grew up in. [43:04] I have more connection here than the district I was then living, because I'd only been in Maryland for like a year after my divorce. [43:13] And I'm thinking, well, it kind of makes sense. [43:16] And it's, you know, and it's a, you know, it's a very, you know, it's a highly educated district. [43:22] It's a district that I think understands the threat to democracy. [43:27] And, you know, it's my chance to give something back to this place that allowed this kid with student loans to, you know, become a success. [43:40] So, you know, I said it was a no-brainer at that point. [43:45] And also, you know, I mean, I come back so often. [43:48] I've spent so much time here. [43:49] Even when I was in Washington, people in Washington would say to me, I thought you lived in New York. [43:53] I was like, well, you know, I mean, I'm up here a lot. [43:56] And it's like, I should have rented an apartment here a long time ago just to save money. [44:02] But anyway, that's how I got to that. [44:06] And part of it is, as you mentioned, a feeling like it's easy to throw lob bombs from the rafters and be critical. [44:20] And I'm good at that. [44:22] I'm good with words. [44:22] And so I can, I can, I can, I'm, I, I, it's fun to do rhetorical bombshells and launch them. [44:29] But it's harder to be in the arena. [44:32] And in fairness to people I've been critical of, I mean, you know, I, I, I, I really should take it, give it a shot. [44:40] And I think in a lot of ways, too, it's, it's sort of, I think I can be useful by virtue of my background. [44:50] Because if people hear a Democrat talking about impeachment, they're just going to, oh, another Democrat. [44:56] I got a different story to tell. [44:58] I have a story that tells, like, I understand where all of you people were coming from about Trump. [45:04] And I am not somebody who wanted this to be this way. [45:12] I am somebody who came to grips with the hard reality of his corruption and his immorality and his contempt for the rule of law and his indecency and his dishonor and disgrace. [45:27] And it's not because I want, I wanted to be a congressman, because I never did. [45:36] It's not because I was some rabid, lifelong partisan Democrat. [45:41] It was because I took a hard look at what I was seeing in the newspapers, in the media, listening to him, and took a look, and took a hard look in the mirror. [45:55] And that's what we all have to do. [45:59] What has been the hardest part, George, of convincing people in this district, overwhelmingly Democratic? [46:07] And in fairness, you are a little bit a George-come-lately to the party anyway. [46:11] George-come-lately, that's fine. [46:12] You were an independent. [46:14] George-come-lately. [46:15] Yeah. [46:16] Went from Republican to independent. [46:19] Independent in 2018, yeah. [46:20] Right, right, to Democratic. [46:22] But what has been the most challenging thing about convincing people that you are the one they should vote for? [46:28] The primary is in June, right? [46:31] You've got some pretty stiff competition. [46:32] We'll talk about them in a moment. [46:34] But just tell me, getting out there, what kind of reception are you getting? [46:38] And what kind of argument seems to be resonating with voters? [46:42] Well, I think, you know, my principal argument is if you want something, want to have nice things, we have to end this era of Trumpism. [46:53] I think the hardest hurdle is making that point to people who think that Trump is just a given, it can't be moved, nothing can be done about him. [47:11] And they think somehow that we're just going to have to go around Trump while he's there. [47:19] And my point is, you might be able to do that a little bit, but you can't do it a lot. [47:27] And my point basically is, listen, there's a consensus in this country about things like affordable health care, affordable housing. [47:37] Republicans and Democrats, it affects us all. [47:39] It affects, frankly, people in red states a lot more in some ways than some people in blue states. [47:44] Although New York City is a little pump and big exception with the incredible costs of doing things in the city. [47:54] It's really a question of practical solutions. [47:57] But even if we could work all these practical solutions out, I think I could work something out with AOC or Olandami, or I could even work some things out with Republicans. [48:09] They're like, here are practical solutions, and let's suppose we had a bill, they call it the everything is better bill, where we work out solutions to health care and infrastructure and choice and the cost of living, like getting rid of the towers, for example. [48:27] And we get this big bill together, who's going to sign it? [48:30] Donald Trump? [48:32] You're going to get him to sign a bill with all that stuff in it, also is going to say that you can't use the Justice Department for retribution? [48:38] You're going to get all that stuff from him? [48:40] No, unless, you know, you convince him that Vladimir Putin was in favor of it, or convince him that it's some kind of a crypto deal for his kids. [48:48] Maybe you could trick him into signing it. [48:50] And then even if you got him to sign it into law by tricking him, who's going to enforce that law? [48:57] So is impeaching Donald Trump your biggest selling point? [49:01] Calling accountability is the selling point. [49:03] Impeaching and removing is part of that. [49:06] And I think we have to, if we can't do this with this man at this moment, then, you know, what's left of our Constitution? [49:18] Because the courts weren't meant to do this. [49:21] The courts can't run the government. [49:22] 600 federal judges or 700 federal judges, however many they are, can't do this through injunctions and play whack-a-mole all the time because he goes off and does something else. [49:30] The framers of our Constitution entrusted Congress with the power to impeach and to remove. [49:40] And they got that from parliamentary law, parliamentary tradition. [49:43] And they called it, in the Federalist Papers, the Grand Inquest of the Republic, which is after the British term of Grand Inquest. [49:56] It's part of the function of a legislature, not just to legislate, but to hold, in Parliament's case, the king's officers responsible for their crimes. [50:07] And in the case of Congress, executive officials, including the president, vice president, members of the cabinet. [50:13] And the problem we have in America today is that Congress has seen it as its authority. [50:22] It's the first article of the Constitution that provides for Congress. [50:27] Congress has all the legislative power. [50:29] Congress is supposed to be monitoring the president. [50:34] Congress is supposed to throw out executive officials who are like Donald Trump criminals. [50:39] I was going to ask you, you know, we talked about the how and and we talked about sort of your neighbor and your friend and your uncle and your mom, etc. [50:48] But we didn't explore earlier, George, Congress and the Republican Party and how it has completely rolled over for Donald Trump. [50:59] And I'm curious how that happened in your estimation. [51:03] Well, I think that happened because people became more enamored of their jobs as elected officials than they than their country, than their country and their oath of office. [51:16] That is something that's just completely appalling to me. [51:19] Why? Why? [51:20] You know, these jobs, I mean, they're not that good. [51:23] I mean, they can be fun, I guess, but why would you sacrifice your dignity and your honor and your your loyalty to the country and decency for this man? [51:35] But people have done it. [51:37] And I think the answer is and I, you know, I think of the Republican Senates that failed to get the two thirds majority to first remove Trump and then later to bar him from holding public office ever again. [51:51] And it's cowardice among many Republican senators in particular. [51:57] But I think the thing that makes me hopeful in this moment and the reason why I make this pitch for impeachment and removal is that the reckoning is coming. [52:12] People who are paying six dollars or five or six dollars a gallon for gasoline and who's who can't afford groceries because of and other household goods because of tariffs and who are appalled at how at the president's involvement with Epstein and the cover up of of Epstein and all these other things that are sort of finally slapping people in the face with reality. [52:43] I think the cowardice of a lot of Republican politicians is going to come to hurt Trump because they're not going to be afraid of him anymore. [52:54] They're going to be afraid of the people who have decided they've had enough. [52:58] And I think, again, part of what we have to do, and I think there will be a Democratic Congress and I think there will be a Democratic House and a Democratic Senate, is make that case to people that what's affecting their democracy is also affecting their economic lives and their personal lives. [53:16] And that Donald Trump is, you know, has lied to them and is, you know, it's like the corruption, how corruption became such a big issue in Hungary, mudjar. [53:30] People didn't think that was going to happen a year or two ago, but it can happen. [53:34] And I think what we need to do is we need to make that case and we need to have the grand inquest of the republic as the framers intended. [53:44] And that's what we need. It's a kind of a civics lesson. [53:50] You know, one of the problems people talk about today is we need to take the entire country to have a civics lesson. [53:57] Well, to me, impeachment and removal and making the case for Donald Trump's impeachment is the civics lesson. [54:02] It's what it's what the grand inquest that the people who wrote the Federalist Papers and they drew from English parliamentary tradition believed that a function, it's a function that they intended and believe Congress could perform. [54:18] And it's a civics lesson. And it's I think the country is becoming more receptive to it. [54:23] And I think, as I said, the cowardice of Republican senators is going to make it possible to happen. [54:28] You believe the Democrats are going to take the House and the Senate. [54:31] And you have even said the extent of the Democratic wave is going to be unimaginable. [54:36] And not to burst your bubble, but I recently spoke to Frank Bruni, who is cautioning Democrats about what he calls its premature elation problem. [54:46] And I wonder how you are feeling so optimistic, especially given what's happening with gerrymandering in this country, what recently happened in Tennessee, what the judge ruled in my home state of Virginia, what's to come in other southern states if they can do it before the midterms. [55:08] They are doing everything they can to alter the landscape and make it more difficult for Democrats running. [55:15] I mean, I understand that. And I agree. And it's a big danger. [55:20] Are you worried? [55:21] I'm worried in the sense that I think that they are, you know, that Trump is going to do things to try to interfere with a free and fair election. [55:28] Absolutely. [55:29] But what about just the gerrymandering? [55:30] The gerrymandering? Here's my view of it. [55:33] Trump is on a course for self-destruction. [55:36] He is so deranged and divorced from reality that he's telling people that gas prices are down and he's telling people one day that this war in the Middle East is over and the next day he's threatening to obliterate a civilization. [55:53] But what if it ends in, okay, go on, go on. I'll play it out. [55:57] I'm playing it out. I'm playing it out. Forgive my long answers. [55:59] That's okay. No, I do. Because I think, but every time you say that, I think, okay, what if the war does end in a month and gas prices go down? [56:08] I mean, do you think that this malcontent is going to continue through November? [56:13] I think he can't help himself. I think he's going to make it worse. And I don't look at it as some kind of premature elation. I just view it as, and frankly, it's not happiness. It's the fact that Donald Trump is so bad and is getting so much worse that he's going to make things so bad for the American people that he's going to make things bad for himself. [56:38] And in terms of gerrymandering, the gerrymandering actually could end up hurting Republicans. [56:45] How so? [56:46] Because what happens, what they do with the gerrymandering, and Texas is an example, is they're designing districts based upon where they think their voters are and where they think their voters are based on what happened in 2024. [57:01] And for example, Hispanic voting in Texas. He's completely cratered among Hispanic voters nationwide and in Texas. And what happens is the way gerrymandering works, political gerrymandering works, is that you're taking your voters and spreading them out to more districts. [57:21] But if they're not your voters, you're going to lose margins in districts that you could lose. And it's called, you know, it's a phenomenon that some political analysts are calling dummymandering, where somebody tries to gerrymander a state's congressional districts to their advantage, but they don't have the juice to back it up. [57:45] And they end up, the Republicans are costing themselves seats by gerrymandering. But the fact of the matter is, the Democrats are going to win the House. [57:56] All right. Virginia, I can't speak to what that Virginia Supreme Court decision was. I haven't read it. It's based upon some weird construction of Virginia law, I gather. [58:04] But that's two seats, right? Two seats max. The Democrats are going to win a lot more than that. [58:12] And I think that the combination of, you know, they only have to win like one or two more right now. I think the fact that, I think that they're going to win enough seats, there's going to be enough of a wave that it's going to counteract any of the gerrymandering that's going to happen between now and November. [58:35] And I think some of the gerrymandering that has been done will backfire. But I think no matter what, I think the Democrats will, in a free and fair election, win the House. [58:45] And the real question is, is Donald Trump going to do something like try to take, have the military take ballot boxes? [58:54] And people, you know, I mean, remember how people in 2024 says, oh, he would never do anything like, you know, he'll accept the results of an election. [59:00] But no, he won't, no way. He'll do whatever he takes to keep out, keep himself out of, in power and out of jail. He'll do whatever he thinks he can get away with. And that's the scary part. [59:13] Is enough being done to preempt that, in your view? [59:16] Well, I mean, I know a lot of great election lawyers are out there, like my friend Mark Elias, warning people about that. [59:27] I think there are a lot of great lawyers preparing for, and there are people at the Brennan Center who are thinking this through here in New York, thinking about how the elections could be affected by malfeasance. [59:44] And then I think the other important thing is that's where the public activism on the streets, the No Kings rallies, that those people are going to go back on the streets if there are serious attempts to, you know, affect the elections in a legal way. [1:00:04] And I think I'm hopeful, you know, that we will have a free and fair election, but I don't think we should take it for granted. [1:00:13] Another reason Frank Bruni is worried about something, as I said, premature elation by the Democrats is because that party isn't very popular. [1:00:22] 57% of people view the Democratic Party unfavorably. [1:00:29] Only 34% view it favorably. [1:00:32] So what is the Democratic Party doing wrong? [1:00:36] Yeah, I think it's important to, you know, we have to provide a vision. [1:00:40] And the vision is of a functional democracy. [1:00:43] The vision is of a government that is not corrupt. [1:00:47] The vision is of a government that is actually focused on solutions for people. [1:00:52] That being said, I think when you look at these polls of approval of the parties, Republicans just say they approve of the party because they're members of the party. [1:01:04] When you ask Democrats and Democratic leading people, they may say that they don't approve of the party for a bunch of different reasons. [1:01:12] Maybe it's saying they don't think it's progressive enough. [1:01:14] That would be some people. [1:01:16] But a lot of them, it's because they don't think it's fighting hard enough against Trump. [1:01:21] And I see that a lot when I walk the streets of this district. [1:01:27] And they don't believe that Democratic leaders have fought hard enough against Trump. [1:01:34] They don't understand why they haven't done that. [1:01:38] And I don't disagree with them. [1:01:42] And I don't mean to criticize any particular individuals. [1:01:45] I think there is kind of a fatigue that has set in. [1:01:49] I think there is a fear that if you go out there too aggressively against Trump, people are just going to peg you as some radical leftists. [1:02:01] I think there are a lot of reasons why, and I think people, you know, one of the problems I think is that people are looking not just at winning the next election, but not doing anything, not taking risks that could damage a long-term political career, which is sort of an odd strength that I have, which is I never intended to do this. [1:02:22] Because I had a nice career as a lawyer. [1:02:27] I don't need a career in public service. [1:02:29] I'm 62 years old. [1:02:31] I don't, I'm not going to be here. [1:02:33] I'm not going to be the next 30-year congressman from the 12th Congressional District of New York. [1:02:37] I don't intend to be. [1:02:38] My view is I view myself as sort of a special, special teams player, if they use the sports analogy. [1:02:46] Or, you know, I'm going to come in for a term and work to get rid of this guy, to end Trumpism, and then work for another term, max, to pass legislation that makes sure, or does the best we can to make sure that this kind of autocracy and this kind of corruption never happens again. [1:03:04] You have probably more name recognition and a national profile. [1:03:12] More people know you than some of your opponents in this primary. [1:03:18] Everyone except one person, Jack Schlossberg, right? [1:03:22] I interviewed Jack Schlossberg, someone you're running against, who has more name recognition, frankly, I think, than you do, although I think you do have a national profile. [1:03:33] And he appears to be leading the race, despite having very limited experience, I think. [1:03:42] What are your views? [1:03:43] Do you think he could do a job representing this district? [1:03:47] Yes, I do, because I think he has the advantage of not being a career politician. [1:03:55] I've gotten to know Jack. [1:03:55] I like Jack a lot. [1:03:57] I'm not going to lie. [1:03:57] I do think, I will plug myself as saying, look, I'm the guy you need now, because I was the one who was a civil litigator for 30 years. [1:04:09] And I have been banging my, I know this, I know how to push Trump's buttons. [1:04:14] And I've been doing that for, I think I've shown that I have the ability to get, to really get at Trump in ways that I don't think very many people have. [1:04:24] But that's not, that's not a criticism of Jack. [1:04:27] I think Jack, having gotten to know him, I think Jack is, is very devoted to public service. [1:04:34] I think he really, he's an idealist. [1:04:36] And I, I think, you know, I mean, I, his slogan, want to believe in something again, I think it speaks to what you were talking about just earlier about, you know, having the Democratic Party stand for something positive. [1:04:48] Um, and I, I, I, I, you know, I see the appeal and the, and the youth, it's all great. [1:04:56] And I love his mother. [1:04:57] I gotta say, I've, I've been such a big fan of, of Caroline Kennedy for, for so long. [1:05:03] So I, I'm not gonna, you know, I got, you know, I'm not gonna lose sleep if, if, if Jack is elected. [1:05:08] But, um, I do think my role is to, is to, is to make the, is to clear the way for Jacks, the Jacks of the world, um, on a, on a, on a short-term basis. [1:05:22] If you don't win this primary, what will you do? [1:05:26] What will you go back doing? [1:05:27] Will you continue to, you're still practicing law, right? [1:05:31] No. [1:05:31] Are you retired from? [1:05:33] I'm retired from the practice of law. [1:05:34] I may do a little, go back to practicing law some. [1:05:38] Um, I want to go back to writing. [1:05:40] I may do something like, I love the studio you have here. [1:05:43] Maybe I'll do some podcasting. [1:05:45] I don't think I've, I don't know. [1:05:48] I think I'll go back to, and I want to write that book. [1:05:50] Um, I want to write a book about, um, Trump and his warped mentality and how it fits in with the evil people in history and then why it was that people succumbed to that. [1:06:05] And a little along the way, that book would include, uh, you know, uh, something about my journey, which I think. [1:06:13] Illuminates will illuminate some of those points, but I'm hoping to write that book in four years. [1:06:19] I asked Jack Schlossberg this question. [1:06:21] So let me ask you, George Conway. [1:06:24] I live in district 12. [1:06:26] I love your vote. [1:06:28] Well, I was going to ask you, why should I vote for you? [1:06:31] I think you should vote for me because I am not, I am somebody who's completely devoted to making this country normal again and getting there as soon as possible and not pretending that we can kind of go around Trump. [1:06:48] And restoring faith in government by showing people the corruption and how it's affecting their lives and making it hitting the square in the face with it, um, in a, in a, in a way that's on both. [1:07:06] You know, it's aggressive, but, but informative at the same time. [1:07:12] And I think as my skills as a civil litigator and my skills, I think that I've shown as a, as an advocate in media, I think make me well suited for that at this moment, at this time. [1:07:26] George Conway, thank you very much. [1:07:28] Thank you, Katie. [1:07:29] Appreciate that.