Former Israeli Minister on civilian deaths: “War is destruction”

[0:05] Danny Ayalon, welcome to Upfront. [0:08] Thank you very much, Riddhi. [0:10] Thank you. [0:11] So after more than a month of war, the Iranian government has not collapsed. [0:16] It is still standing. [0:17] U.S. intelligence assessments are telling us that it is unlikely to collapse anytime soon. [0:21] Even your Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has conceded that regime change cannot happen via airstrikes. [0:29] It must happen internally. [0:30] Yet Israel continues to escalate its attacks, killing the very people it claims to help. [0:37] What exactly is the point of this war? [0:40] Yes, well, really, best that I can tell, the idea was not immediately to get rid of this murderous regime of the Ayatollahs in Tehran, [0:51] but maybe to create the conditions. [0:53] Whether it will happen in weeks or months, no one can tell. [0:57] But the purpose of the airstrikes... [1:01] of Israel and then, I believe, also of the United States, [1:04] is actually to degrade Iran, to take out the capability that they have built of long-range missiles, [1:13] that now we are on the receiving end of it. [1:15] By the way, not just Israel, it's the entire Gulf countries, it's even Turkey and even Cyprus. [1:22] But that's as a result of Israel's attack, and they were already at the negotiation table. [1:27] So all the retaliatory attacks are happening because of Israel's attack. [1:31] Well, unfortunately, we have been watching this Iranian regime since 1979, [1:42] and we have seen that they do not live up to their promises, not in the nuclear issues, [1:49] that they did everything against their own commitments on the nonproliferation treaty, [1:55] and also on the missiles. [1:56] You know, we have heard them say time and again that they do not have missiles, [2:02] which... [2:02] are more than 1,000 or 1,500 kilometers. [2:06] Only two weeks ago, really, they fired two ballistic missiles towards the island of Diego Garcia [2:13] in the Indian Pacific, which is at the range of 4,000. [2:20] So you cannot take them at their word. [2:22] On the contrary, this is why we have to watch them very carefully. [2:26] And also, they were building a massive infrastructure, [2:32] and they were building a large number of missiles. [2:36] And in their plan was to build 10,000 ballistic missiles with a longer range, [2:43] bigger warheads, more accuracy. [2:46] 10,000 missiles to be launched on any country could be devastating, [2:50] and it could be akin to almost a nuclear bomb. [2:53] Iran reportedly removed its limits on ballistic missiles only after Israel's bombing campaign during the war last year. [3:00] Now, as a result of this new threat, [3:02] Iran reportedly removed its limits on ballistic missiles only after Israel's bombing campaign during the war last year. Now, as a result of this new threat, [3:02] hardline voices within Iran are pushing for withdrawal from the nuclear nonproliferation treaty. [3:09] It seems as if Israel has in fact succeeded in bombing its way into the very scenarios that it claimed it wanted to avoid. [3:19] Well, I would say that whether they belong to the nonproliferation or not, [3:25] it was beside the point because no matter what they declared or what they signed on, [3:32] they did things completely differently. [3:35] And we saw it, you know, with the 60% enriched uranium, [3:39] which was a total breach of all the agreements and the NPT. [3:45] We saw it with a weaponization program that they have, [3:50] not only the enriched uranium, but how to launch it or how to mount it on a ballistic missile. [3:56] Very, very dangerous. [3:57] A top advisor to Donald Trump, David Sachs, says, [4:01] A top advisor to Donald Trump, David Sachs, says, [4:02] Is there a scenario where you would have to, quote, [4:05] worry about Israel escalating the war by contemplating using nuclear weapons? [4:10] So my question to you, would you support Israel using its nuclear weapons? [4:15] Well, again, this is a very wild speculation. [4:20] Israel has never, ever committed to any nuclear activities. [4:29] Quite the contrary. [4:31] We have said all along, [4:32] and this is still the policy of every government of Israel, [4:36] that Israel will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons to the Middle East. [4:41] So certainly we are not looking that way. [4:45] And also, you know, Israel has never, ever threatened any other country for total annihilation. [4:52] So this is a totally different case. [4:55] Are you denying that Israel has nuclear weapons? [4:59] Yes, I am denying, but I'm not in a position of government right now. [5:03] So I can say whatever I say. [5:05] But Israel has never said whether it has or it doesn't have. [5:09] But that ambiguity, that ambiguity is a problem. [5:12] Why won't you say and why won't you let inspectors in? [5:15] And why won't you be a part of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty? [5:20] OK, so this is a fair question. [5:22] Ambiguity is a fundamental, I would say, basis for our national security. [5:30] If you look at the map, you know, Israel, a very small country. [5:33] We are less than one third of one percent of the entire Middle East. [5:38] You see all the threats we have around us. [5:41] So ambiguity is the only way we can assure that our security and our future are, I would say, are solid. [5:52] Isn't it hypocritical? [5:54] I mean, it sounds like jaw dropping hypocrisy that you as Israel would bomb another country because it's allegedly pursuing nuclear weapons. [6:02] And despite contrary suggestions and counter arguments from the UN and others, you insist that they have nuclear weapons. [6:10] When the only country that actually may have nuclear weapons is Israel. [6:15] That's hypocrisy. [6:16] I don't think so. [6:18] Again, we never said that we have a nuclear weapon. [6:21] We never said for sure that we were going to use nuclear weapons or to threaten any other countries, which is not the case of the Ayatollahs. [6:30] And they are trying to submit and subjugate all the nuclear weapons. [6:33] They are trying to convince the people in the countries to to their rule, like they did in Lebanon, in Yemen, in Syria, in Iraq. [6:41] And they will not stop there until they are stopped by somebody has to stop them. [6:46] And I'm very proud and happy that Israel has the wherewithal to be able to stop it. [6:52] And by the way, by doing that, we defend not only ourselves, but we defend all the countries in the Middle East. [6:58] Netanyahu recently expanded the invasion into southern Lebanon. [7:02] Which he says it is to create a security buffer against Hezbollah. [7:06] At the same time, Israeli officials have openly called for extending Israel's borders. [7:12] How does Israel justify its illegal territorial expansion to Lebanon? [7:18] Well, the justification is on both Article 55 of the Charter of the United Nations, which is called self-defense. [7:28] And in order to save lives of civilians in our northern borders. [7:32] We see Hezbollah. [7:34] Again, Hezbollah would not be in existence without Iran. [7:40] Iran is giving Hezbollah one billion dollars a year. [7:45] By the way, you look at the abject conditions of the Iranian population. [7:49] You wonder why the money is not going to them. [7:54] And this is also part of the instigation of a regime change over there. [7:59] Well, you are spending a lot of money on defense as well. [8:02] The US is also doing the same. [8:04] But Article 55 does not allow you to annex territory. [8:08] In fact, the UN Charter Article 2.4, all members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence by any state. [8:20] What do you say to that? [8:21] You are violating international law? [8:23] All I say is, yeah, I do not negate that. [8:27] And Israel does not have any ambitions or any territorial claims from Lebanon. [8:31] So this is why we are very careful to say this is a security zone which will last only as long as Hezbollah is armed. [8:40] By the way, Hezbollah is the one breaching the international law because all the agreements, whether it's the UN Security Council 1701, [8:50] whether it's internal Taif agreement of all the sections in Lebanon, whether it's the ceasefire. [8:58] No, but Israel violated. [8:59] Really, just the ceasefire of November. [9:00] Israel violated. [9:01] Israel violated the November 2024 ceasefire with Lebanon on a near daily basis. [9:06] Hezbollah had not fired rockets at Israel for almost a year before this war. [9:12] But the one, the principle idea of the ceasefire was that Hezbollah will disarm. [9:20] So Hezbollah since November, since the ceasefire, not only they did not disarm, but also they were getting much more building their military capabilities. [9:31] And we see it now. [9:32] We see it now as they launch hundreds of rockets over Israel. [9:37] And the range of these rockets covers almost the entire country. [9:42] No country really can live under the threats of either missiles or nuclear threat from Iran or rockets from Lebanon, which is not the Lebanese government. [9:53] The Lebanese government, we support the Lebanese government. [9:56] We would like very much to see the Lebanese government regain sovereignty over the entire country. [10:00] We would like to see the Lebanese government regain sovereignty over the entire territory of Lebanon. [10:03] Hezbollah is the one that actually is undermining Lebanon. [10:07] And guess what? [10:08] It's hard to believe you support the Lebanese government when we are seeing that Israel is again, as with the genocide in Gaza, Israel is again bombing hospitals, public infrastructure, killing civilians, children, healthcare workers, journalists. [10:23] That doesn't sound like support. [10:25] But you said earlier that Israel has no ambitions of territorial expansion into Lebanon. [10:29] Your own defense minister, Israel Katz, said, and I quote here, he ordered an acceleration in the destruction of Lebanese homes in accordance with the model of Beit Hanoun and Rafah in Gaza. [10:42] So is Israel applying the same Gaza playbook to Iran and Lebanon? [10:48] Really, I am no spokesman of Minister Katz. [10:53] Well, you are defending Israel's position. [10:55] You are defending Israel's position. [10:57] So I'm challenging you on a claim you made. [10:59] Yeah. [11:00] That Israel has no ambitions for territorial expansion. [11:02] And here's the defense minister saying exactly the opposite. [11:05] Well, I again, I do not explain. [11:09] I do not what he says. [11:10] But I know that this is he is not the one to decide to make such a move. [11:15] It's the entire cabinet and the entire cabinet. [11:18] And the prime minister said that we are we have no ambitions about Lebanon. [11:23] But look at Lebanon now. [11:24] Lebanon is not run by the government, but by Iran and their proxy, Hezbollah. [11:30] This is where we have to defend ourselves. [11:33] And this is the cornerstone of our entire policy towards Lebanon in self-defense. [11:42] And I can guarantee you really that if Hezbollah lives up to its commitments and this arm, you will not see one soldier, one foot soldier of Israel in on Lebanese territory. [11:58] So Israel strikes in Lebanon. [11:59] Israel strikes in Lebanon have killed one hundred and twenty four children. [12:03] That doesn't sound like self-defense when you are killing children. [12:07] So to that, I have a few answers. [12:11] First of all, it is it is deplorable and it's unfortunate. [12:17] And every civilian killed as a collateral damage, certainly kids is very unfortunate. [12:27] And we should all be very sorry for that. [12:29] But first of all, the numbers you mentioned are disputed. [12:32] I'm giving you numbers from UNICEF. [12:35] So again, who is responsible for that? [12:41] If Hezbollah positions its missiles and its bases inside civilian centers, whether it's schools, whether it's offices, whether it's buildings, you know, private buildings, you are. [12:56] I'm sure there are reels. [12:57] There are footage that is. [13:00] The Israeli government, the Israeli government has never provided any evidence to prove that Hezbollah is using civilians as as human shields. [13:12] But Israel's repeated use, repeated use of Palestinians as human shields has been widely documented. [13:18] Again, there is ample evidence and I have seen footage. [13:23] I'm sure that really few requested. [13:27] I'm sure the IDF spokesman can give you. [13:29] A lot of evidence. [13:31] And if I can intervene in supply that I'll be very happy to, although I'm not a member of the government. [13:39] But we have here an enemy who does not really care about human lives, not their own and certainly not ours. [13:50] So when you have to defend yourself against such an enemy, then you have to do what you have to do. [13:56] And Israel has been very careful. [13:58] Before attacking different areas, we called. [14:03] We are. [14:04] Until now, the idea of spoken says to civilians, this specific area, these coordinates, please leave the area because this area is a where Hamas or. [14:17] Well, we've seen we've seen in Gaza even aid workers who had sent coordinates to the IDF. [14:22] They were bombed. [14:24] They were killed despite doing that. [14:26] So we could conclude then. [14:27] That you believe the version of the IDF. [14:30] But what we have seen the sheer magnitude of the destruction says otherwise. [14:35] Well, war is a war is confusion. [14:40] War is destruction. [14:42] War is not clean action. [14:44] It's not laboratory. [14:45] And we can be very sorry for every loss of life which was not involved. [14:52] But again, who is responsible? [14:54] The one who positions their weapons inside. [14:57] Embedded inside a civilian population. [15:00] Even though there is no evidence, even though there is no evidence that has been provided to that effect. [15:05] We're going to have to leave it there. [15:06] Danny, I alone. [15:07] Thank you for joining me on up front. [15:09] Thank you, really.