Former DOGE staffers testify in NEH grant lawsuit

[0:00] And I know we've talked about it somewhat already, but what is DEI referring to here? [0:06] It stands for diversity, equity, and inclusion. [0:08] Well, let's start with what does it mean to you? [0:11] It means diversity, equity, and inclusion. [0:13] Well, that's the label, but what do those words mean to you? [0:19] It means making decisions on a basis of something other than merit. [0:26] Okay. How does diversity differ from equity in that term, do you know? [0:32] I don't know. I don't understand the label itself, frankly. [0:34] So right now, do you have an understanding of what DEI is? [0:38] Yeah. [0:39] Okay. So what's your understanding as you sit here today in this deposition? [0:44] Well, it was exactly what was written in the EO. [0:48] And so any time that we would look at a grant through the lens of complying with an executive order, [0:54] we would just refer back to the EO and assess if this grant had relation to it. [1:00] Okay. But I guess stepping back from your methodology strictly in terminating the grants, [1:07] do you have an understanding? [1:08] Do you have an understanding as you sit here today of what DEI means? [1:11] Yeah. [1:12] Okay. So what's your understanding of what it means? [1:14] Well, it is exactly what was written in the EO. [1:20] Okay. So... [1:21] And I don't have the EO in front of me. [1:23] And the rationale says the documentary addresses gender-based violence [1:27] and overlooked histories contributing to DEI by amplifying marginalized voices. [1:32] Yes. [1:36] Why is the documentary about Holocaust survivors DEI? [1:43] Objection. [1:46] It's the gender-based story. [1:50] Okay. [1:51] Okay. [1:51] So that's inherently discriminatory to focus on this specific group? [1:59] It's inherently discriminatory to focus on what specific group? [2:06] The gender-based, so females during the Holocaust. [2:14] And you believe that that's inherently discriminatory? [2:18] I'm just saying that's what it's focused on. [2:22] Sure. [2:23] And this is related to DEI. [2:25] Right. But you just used the term inherently discriminatory. [2:29] What did you mean by that? [2:34] It's focusing on DEI principles. [2:38] Okay. [2:39] If you had already been reviewing every grant one by one, such that you gained an understanding of it, [2:47] why then run all of those grants again through a large language model like OpenAI? [2:57] Objection. [2:58] I'm not sure. [3:00] You don't know? [3:04] But no one told you to. [3:09] What did you do at the U.S. Institute of Peace? [3:12] We reduced the Institute of Peace to its statutory minimum. [3:17] What did that involve? [3:19] It involved terminating all of the existing contracts grants. [3:25] And firing all of the employees. [3:27] So you terminated all of the existing contracts grants and fired all of the employees at the U.S. Institute of Peace? [3:33] Objection. [3:35] Effectively, yes. [3:36] So it was your assessment that immigrant would have been contrary to the EOs? [3:44] It depends on the grant. [3:45] But you put it on this list because at some point you thought that a word like immigrant might conflict with the EOs? [3:54] It may, but it all depends on the grant. [3:56] Yeah. But is that why you put this word on the list, though? [4:00] It could indicate DEI. [4:07] It's not hamburger. [4:08] It's something that may relate to cultural appropriation and DEI-related grants. [4:18] A grant that people might have lost important income to support their lives? [4:25] No. [4:26] I think it was more important to reduce the federal deficit from $2 trillion to close to zero. [4:31] Did you reduce the federal deficit? [4:33] No, we didn't. [4:34] You did? [4:35] No, I don't believe we did. [4:40] Support journalism you trust. [4:42] Support PBS News. [4:44] Donate now, or even better, start a monthly contribution today.