Fmr. U.N. Climate Chief on Bill Gates’ Climate Rollback and Climate Politics — Amanpour and Company

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: What happens when it's not just a President Trump, and I use him because he's the usual suspect. Look, he took the U.S. twice out of the Paris Climate Accords, which you negotiated, 195 people. You were the U.N.'s chief negotiator on all of that. But what happens when a Bill Gates starts to roll back? When he, who's been at the forefront of not just health solutions around the world, but about, you know, about climate. He's just written a very much, you know, discussed memo that was released saying that climate change is a serious problem, but will not end civilization. Temperature is not the best way, he says, to measure our progress on climate. Health and prosperity are the best defenses against climate change. He also wrote, COP30 is a chance to refocus on the metric that should count even more than emissions and temperature change. That is improving lives. And you responded? [00:00:49] Speaker 2: I responded. It's very understandable that Bill Gates, who is a friend, thinks in binary terms. Because all of the computing world is based on binary thinking. Ones and zeros, that is the basis of computing. So it's very understandable that he does this binary thinking and binary analysis. However, the real world is not binary. The real world is actually interconnected. And so there is no use in us exclusively dealing with health, with poverty, if we don't also protect people against the ravages of climate change. And sadly for him, he published this memo exactly in the time in which Melissa hit Jamaica. And so the question, you know, is let's ask the Jamaicans whether even if they had had perfect health and perfect quality of life, would that have protected them against Melissa? The answer is no. We have to do both. [00:01:49] Speaker 1: Indeed, you did an extensive X or Instagram response. Sorry, Bill Gates. No amount of human welfare in Jamaica would have stopped, prevented or reduced the impact of Category 5. Melissa. So let's now talk about hurricanes, because this is also everything becomes political. Everything becomes political. So people will say, well, it's not global warming that creates hurricanes. And I think scientists also agree. But it is global warming and sea warming particularly that creates their ferocity and the more and more. Exactly. And that is something. The amplification. The amplification. And I wonder, where are we? I mean, they've just had a, didn't they have a oceanic report recently? I mean, the oceans are really getting hotter. [00:02:30] Speaker 2: They are getting much warmer, and that's the issue. Just to take Melissa as one example, it might have been a Category 2 or 3 or maybe maximum 4 hurricane, but it got to 5 very, very quickly, because on its path, it passed over oceans that were 3 degrees warmer than they should be. And because the ocean is warmer, that means there is more evaporation. The hurricane takes in more and more humidity and becomes much more ferocious. So let no one say that climate change produces hurricanes, but it definitely makes them more ferocious and very likely more frequent. [00:03:11] Speaker 1: Here in Brazil, the Minister of the Environment has talked about Tropical Forest Forever Fund. Yes. What do you understand that means? [00:03:22] Speaker 2: That is a very courageous and visionary enterprise that Brazil is launching to do something that we should have done many years ago, and that is protect standing forests and recover lands that have been deforested, and do it especially through empowering and financing indigenous peoples who own and have protected at least 40% of the forest canopy and forest cover of this planet, and have never been given the support to continue that very important protective role that they play. So Brazil, I think, is doing something very important at this COP. They're bringing two issues that have never been front and center, and they're putting it front and center. One is, what are we going to do about land use? Because most of us, me included, focus on energy, because it's 75% of global emissions. But we tend to forget that 25% comes from inadequate land use, and that that needs to be addressed, especially because there are so many lives, both human and more than human lives, that depend on the health of our forest cover. So they're putting land use front and center, and indigenous peoples and First Nations peoples. That is very unusual, that is a first for a climate COP. We saw it at the Biodiversity COP in Colombia just a few months ago, and I really salute them for that, because they are sticking their political neck out to do two things that don't yet have a lot of political public support, but that need it. [00:05:15] Speaker 1: Can I ask you to, what do you think of the fact that, you know, this COP is back in a, you know, this is the lungs of the world, this is very different from the last two, which were in petro-states, UAE and Azerbaijan. Is that just a location issue, or do you think it actually has, bears any kind of meaning on results of what comes out? [00:05:37] Speaker 2: It's very symbolic and very intentional. The COP presidency, in fact, the Brazilian government, very intentionally chose Belem, which is in the heart of the Amazon, to make their point, let us not forget about the trees, let us not forget about nature. And so the fact that we will all be there means we will not be able to forget that. But just in case we forget, they're going to put it on the negotiating table. We'll see you next time.