Citadel CEO Ken Griffin on Trump, the Economy and the Future of America — Amanpour and Company

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: - Ken Griffin, welcome to the show. - Walter, it is a pleasure to be here today. You just announced a $3 billion gift to Carnegie Mellon, both for its campus up in Pittsburgh, but also to build a whole new campus down in Miami. Why did you do that now? What's the purpose of such a gift? [00:00:20] Ken Griffin: - So Walter, I just recently made a $3 billion investment in Carnegie Mellon University. CMU is one of our nation's finest institutions of higher education. They lead the world in computer science, in AI, in robotics, in fields that are important to the success of our country for the 21st century. And it is a privilege to support the incredible leadership team, faculty, and students of CMU. [00:00:49] Speaker 1: - You've moved down to Miami two or three years ago, four years ago from Chicago. Why do you think Miami is going to be the new center for technology finance? [00:01:03] Ken Griffin: - Miami is a city that is enjoying unparalleled growth and prosperity. And it is such a pleasure to live in a city with so much optimism, so much energy. This is a city that's drawing companies from across the country to here. Palantir, for example, recently moved their headquarters from Colorado to Miami. The city has an incredible draw, quality of life, the incredible workforce. And CMU Miami will be part of that story. It will anchor hundreds of startups in the area of robotics, in the area of software, in the area of AI. It will have a profound impact here on the city of Miami. [00:01:47] Speaker 1: - Well, one of the reasons Florida is booming is that it has no income tax, it cuts taxes. And of course, around the country, you see states either competing to try to draw business lowering taxes, but sometimes that really detracts from the ability of government to get things done. - Do you worry about a competition among states to see who can be the lowest tax state? [00:02:13] Ken Griffin: - Actually, I think taxes are very, very small part of the success of Florida's story. I lived in Chicago. You did not wanna leave your house at nine o'clock at night to walk down the street. It simply was unsafe. Florida is a government that works for its people, focused on great schools, great universities, safe streets, and delivering high quality services to its people at a very cost effective price point. You know, here in the city of Miami, we have a new Democratic mayor, and I met with her just a few weeks ago. Do you know what she's most proud of? She's cutting the time for permitting from 800 days for multifamily housing to just over a hundred days. She knows that will drive down the cost of housing. She's focused on how do I make the state more affordable? How do I make the experience for developers more successful? How do I make the people of Florida better off? That ethos in government, that ethos, that competition to deliver services for our people should be the mindset of mayors and governors across our entire country. [00:03:24] Speaker 1: You recently, of course, got into somewhat of a contention with the mayor of the city of New York, Mayor Mamdani. He used you as a poster face for why he wants to put what's called a Pied à terre tax, a tax on people who have second homes in New York but don't pay income tax there. Like for this penthouse, which hedge fund CEO Ken Griffin bought for $238 million. This Pied à terre tax is specifically designed for the richest of the rich. Leaving aside him singling you out, do you generally think it's a good idea or a bad idea to have things like a tax on people with second homes as a way to raise revenue? [00:04:07] Ken Griffin: Look, I think every governor and every mayor should think long and hard about the tax policies that raise the revenues they need to provide needed services and encourage growth and prosperity. You know, Mayor Mandami, if he did just a little bit of work, would realize I was actually one of New York's largest taxpayers. We have 2000 and change employees in New York and under how New York tax laws work, I do pay taxes in the city of New York. So he doesn't understand basic tax policy of the state in which he acts as the mayor of the largest city. Look, I think all mayors, all governors need to take a step back. What are the means that we're gonna raise revenues to meet needed services? And what are the right strategies that are going to encourage job creators, that are gonna encourage job growth? How do we make the pie bigger for all? [00:04:59] Speaker 1: - What are those methods for raising revenues that you think would help grow prosperity as well? - Look, generally speaking, [00:05:08] Ken Griffin: the United States has a progressive tax code. It's a thoughtful tax code. It's a reality that it matches the needs of our country for revenue. But the most important thing we can do is not play favorites across industries, not play favorites across parts of our population. We should have a tax code that people view is transparent, fair, equitable, doesn't play favorites. People say the US tax system is equitable. [00:05:39] Speaker 1: - Do you think that there's a problem of a growing inequality of wealth? And if so, how should that be tackled? - So if you look at the Forbes 400, [00:05:50] Ken Griffin: what's remarkable is it's almost all new wealth, wealth created in the last 20 or 30 years. The United States economic boom is a story of each generation surpassing the accomplishments of the prior generations. And this is not a country with an aristocrat class defined by intergenerational wealth. This is money created by businesses that create the solutions and products for the people of today. You know, I look at the incredible success of Steve Jobs and Apple. I don't begrudge Steve Jobs' success when I use my iPhone every day. I'm grateful to have access to such an unbelievable tool in my pocket that gives me access to the wealth of humanity and the ability to get from point A to point B as efficiently and quickly as possible. Most of the American success stories involve companies and leaders solving problems and meeting the needs of American consumers. And when they're successful in doing so, I'm grateful for their success. [00:06:56] Speaker 1: - Well, you talk about economic mobility being a part of America. And if you were born in the 40s or 50s, like I was, you had about an 80 or 90% chance of doing better than your parents. Nowadays, you have less than a 50% chance of doing financially better. Do you think that economic mobility and this ability to have sort of opportunity has been reduced in the United States? - And do you remember the names [00:07:22] Ken Griffin: of your teachers in elementary school? I bet you do. - Mm-hmm. - They cared deeply about your success. And education was a priority for our country. Now, if you look at the GI Bill, for those who served our nation in World War II, they came back to our country and had access to an extraordinary college education. They went on to build our nation. But our country's focus on education's been lost. In Illinois, where I lived for almost three decades, just a few years ago, under the leadership of J.B. Pritzker, 53 schools, 53 schools, had not one child performing at grade level. Not one child at grade level. Now, Governor Pritzker, how are you going to address the issue of economic mobility when you leave countless tens of thousands of students without the education that they need to succeed in the 21st century? That's the root problem we need to fix. We need to educate our children. It's part of the reason I'm a big supporter of Success Academies in New York. Eva Moskowitz, inner city New York, her children who go on to our finest universities, receive a world-class education. They will enjoy all the benefits of economic mobility that this country has to offer. They will go on to have great lives, impactful lives, meaningful lives, and lives where they enjoy earned success. [00:09:00] Speaker 1: - Well, do you think that K through 12 education has a disparity in funding where people who are, you know, wealthier get to choose where their kids go to school and other people are stuck in bad schools? And if so, what would you do about that? - Well, you know, the governor of Florida, [00:09:15] Ken Griffin: Governor DeSantis has actually worked really hard to put in place legislation that gives parents choice, and choice between charter and public schools, the ability to really make sure that their kids have a fair opportunity when it comes to opening the doors of education. I think if you look at Florida, if you look at Mississippi, I think there's a number of states today in this country that really do exemplify a passionate focus on making sure that our children have a chance to have a great education. Because a great education, [00:09:51] Speaker 1: that's the on-ramp to the American dream. - The big news in this past week in terms of AI and finance is Anthropic going for its initial public offering. What do you think specifically on Anthropic and in general about AI, whether we may be entering a bubble and there's going to have to be some shakeout? [00:10:13] Ken Griffin: - I think we are at a great technological transformation. AI is to this moment in time what the railroads were to the 1850s, 1840s, 1860s. It's what the internet was to just 25 years ago. This is a profound transformation of our economy taking place. Anthropic is clearly on the frontier, the leading edge of that transformation, and they are continuing to enhance their models and their capabilities in a way that empowers both corporate America and entrepreneurs to far more rapidly develop products, bring those products to market successfully, and to grow their businesses. Anthropic has a really important role to play in the future of our country. [00:10:59] Speaker 1: - Well, you talk about the railways and others coming along 100, 150 years ago in the last great technological boom, but more than, I think more than 150 railways end up going bankrupt during that period. Are we going to see a similar shakeout here? [00:11:17] Ken Griffin: - Look, any time you have a profound transformation of our economy taking place, you're going to have an incredible number of startups that try to seize the moment. And bluntly, many are going to struggle. Many are going to fail. But the ones that succeed, those become the companies that lead our nation for decades or centuries to come. [00:11:39] Speaker 1: - You said you voted for President Trump, but not with a smile on your face. What are your qualms now about what President Trump is doing? And how are you being involved in politics and your donations now? [00:11:58] Ken Griffin: - So I'm really, really enthusiastic about the fact that the president's been so focused on growing the U.S. economy. But I don't agree with all of his economic policies. For example, I think our position on tariffs has been very counterproductive in our standing in the Western world. We need to lift all boats across the Western world. We need Europe to do better. We need Canada to be more successful. We need Japan's economy to grow. We need the Western world's economies to grow to lift all boats. And the United States will do better when Europe does better. The United States will do better when Canada does better. We will do better when our friends and allies succeed. American businesses and American jobs will prosper on the back of that. So I think our terror policy has been, although well-intended, misplaced. I give the president great credit for shutting the border with Mexico. You know, we both heard for years we could not close our border, and they closed it in weeks. Conversely, I think we need to make sure that this is still a country where the best and brightest in the world feel welcome, feel comfortable, and want to be here. Our ability to bring in so many talented people from around the world has been instrumental to the success of American businesses. You know, roughly half of all the Silicon Valley startups are run by immigrants or first-generation Americans. We want this to be a country where the best and brightest just continue to come here and to build. I'd rather have them here on our land, proud contributors to our country, than competing against them on the international stage. [00:13:42] Speaker 1: To what extent do you think that money, especially money from extremely wealthy people, has distorted American politics? [00:13:54] Ken Griffin: I think money gives people the ability to spread a message, but I think ultimately the American voters are very good at discerning what messages matter to them, which messages make sense, and they vote with their minds and their hearts in a really thoughtful way. So I think money empowers messaging, but to be clear, to win an election, you have to have a message that resonates with where the hearts and minds of the American voters are. [00:14:25] Speaker 1: And where are you putting your money now in politics as we lead into the midterms? Look, I'm very focused on political leaders [00:14:33] Ken Griffin: who believe in freedom, in both personal freedom and the ability to pursue one's dreams and ambitions in a free market. And I do worry about the rise of the democratic socialists. Their willingness to abandon a free market is just one step towards their future willingness to abandon our personal rights. Our country's been built on personal freedom, and I'm very focused on candidates who will protect our personal freedoms. [00:15:05] Speaker 1: - But do you think, too, that there's been sort of a crony capitalism or a type of involvement in the economy by the Trump administration that goes against some of the free market principles that you've exposed? [00:15:22] Ken Griffin: - So I find that any form of crony capitalism by either party should be avoided with great care. That goes back to all of our sense of what is fair. And when both parties start to pick winners and losers in corporate America, whether it's through government-subsidized loans or other involvement by the government, the sense of inequity and corruption, the smell of corruption starts to fill the room. And I think it's important that our political leaders on both sides, both Democrats and Republicans, should be very thoughtful at all times not to pick winners and losers. [00:16:06] Speaker 1: - But do you feel the same way about President Trump's investments and taking ownership states in certain corporations? [00:16:13] Ken Griffin: - I think the president of the United States should avoid our country using its resources to invest in companies unless issues of national security are at play. Again, we shouldn't be in the business of picking winners and losers in Washington. [00:16:26] Speaker 1: - Ken Griffith, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it. - Thank you. [00:16:43] Speaker ?: you