Energy transition explained — The Energy Podcast

[00:00:00] Peter Wood: Energy transition means different things to different people in different places. Texas is an all-of-the-above state. It's a very large oil and gas producing state, but it's also a very large renewable energy producing state. So Texas is doing not a bit of everything, but a lot of everything. People tend to overestimate the impact of technology in the short run, but they underestimate it in the long run. And that's very much how it feels in the energy system. [00:00:30] Bryony McKenzie: Hello and welcome to the Energy Podcast from Shell, the home of conversation about the energy that powers our world. I'm Bryony McKenzie. [00:00:40] Eddie Veal: And I'm Eddie Veal. [00:00:41] Bryony McKenzie: And Eddie, it's great to have you here with us for this new season. I've hosted the podcast before, but this is new for you. Now we both work for Shell as well, but we're in different parts of the business. So tell us a bit about yourself. [00:00:52] Eddie Veal: Yeah, I started off my career as a mechanical engineer at some of our assets in the field, and now I'm working in our trading and supply business. [00:00:59] Bryony McKenzie: And I'm from corporate relations and before that used to be a journalist. [00:01:03] Eddie Veal: So Bryony, what are we talking about this year on the podcast? [00:01:07] Bryony McKenzie: Well, Shell has more than a century of experience of connecting people with energy. So we're going to be talking about the really big, important topics with experts as well. So everything from LNG to technology, carbon capture and storage, AI. [00:01:21] Eddie Veal: That's exciting. And new episodes drop every month with bonus episodes in between. So make sure that you like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. [00:01:28] Bryony McKenzie: And of course, you can also watch us on YouTube this season as well. So I can't wait to get started. But before we do, just a quick note that when we say Shell or we, we're talking about Shell PLC and its subsidiaries in general. The companies in which Shell PLC directly and indirectly owns investments are separate legal entities. Today's topic is a big one to kick us off. We're talking about the energy transition. [00:01:52] Eddie Veal: It's the foundation of so many conversations that we're going to have this year. [00:01:55] Bryony McKenzie: Absolutely. And we have an expert guest to help us out. [00:01:58] Eddie Veal: Let's get to it. Today on the energy podcast from Shell, we're talking to Peter Wood, Shell's chief energy advisor. Peter, welcome. [00:02:06] Bryony McKenzie: So good to have you here, Peter. It's a great job title, isn't it? I'm just wondering what Shell's chief energy advisor does. [00:02:13] Peter Wood: Yeah. Sometimes the chief energy advisor one does too. So our team, we're about 25 people. We look at how the energy system might play out over the next sort of 25, 30 years. And to do that, we have a series of models. So we play those out. And then from that, we get a number of views. We build scenarios to capture those. And then the final thing you do is we engage externally. So on a podcast today. So on a podcast today. But sometimes it's talking to customers, governments, shareholders. Engaging. So that means sharing our views. But it also means listening. I want to know what our customers think they're going to do in the next 10 or 20 years. [00:02:51] Eddie Veal: Peter, you grew up on a farm. Can you talk us through that transition from farm life to the job that you have here at Shell? [00:03:01] Peter Wood: I did indeed. I grew up on a hill farm in the Yorkshire Dales. And I really enjoyed it. Still go back. From there, about the only thing I was good at at school was physics. And that sort of led me to joining Shell in 1997. And since then, I've worked in our upstream part of the business, finding oil and gas. And then more recently on the strategy side. And I've done that in Europe, the Middle East and the United States. [00:03:27] Bryony McKenzie: So you've gone from, like you said, a sort of a bit of a broad range of things. And the focus now being on the energy transition. And obviously, when we say that, we're referring to the shift away from fossil fuels to low carbon, zero carbon energy sources. Obviously, that's how you understand it. [00:03:44] Peter Wood: Well, I think I'd probably say that we've been in an energy transition for a very long time. So if you take a look at history, you know, we started getting serious about moving away from renewables at the start of the Industrial Revolution. So 250 years ago. Because remember, prior... [00:04:01] Bryony McKenzie: Moving away from renewables. [00:04:02] Peter Wood: Moving away. Because prior to the Industrial Revolution, we were in a renewables world. All of our energy was derived from renewable energy. It was what you could grow, what animals could work for you, or how you could harness wind or water. And then when the Industrial Revolution started, we started harnessing fossil fuels. We started harnessing coal. And then we used coal for, what, 150 years' rise of coal. Still rising. Well, not rising, maybe flattening. But we're still using a lot. But then we moved to oil, then gas, then nuclear, and now renewables. So, over that period of time, we've basically been continually adding to the energy that we use. So even today, we use more biomass than we ever have done before. So that's burning wood. [00:04:49] Eddie Veal: So can you maybe put that picture in a little bit more context and talk about where we are right now and what that energy mix looks like? [00:04:56] Peter Wood: Yeah. So if you take the overall energy mix today, just under 80% is coming from fossil. And very roughly, a third of that is oil, a third of it is coal, and a third is gas. It's actually a little bit more oil, a little bit less gas, but broadly speaking. And then the other 20% is coming from renewable power. So wind, solar, hydro. It's about 5-6%. Another 5-6% coming from nuclear. So important. And then the remaining 10% is still a lot of biomass, a lot of wood and waste biomaterials, and one or two other things. So that's where the energy is coming from. That's what we call primary energy. That's what comes into the energy system. [00:05:40] Eddie Veal: So that's where we are now. How has that evolved over the past 10 years? Has it been fairly constant, or has it changed? [00:05:46] Peter Wood: It hasn't changed all that much. We've been at around 80% of primary energy from fossil for the last 50 years. Around. What you have seen change over the last 10 years is a substantial growth in renewable power. So wind and solar. They have gone from really rather modest amounts to 3% or 4% today. And you see that. Look out of the window. Look at the solar cells. Look at the wind turbines. So that's changing. And if you think about the overall energy system, where are we seeing the most rapid changes? It's in the power sector. That's where we are managing to find new technologies to push carbon intensity out. But power is only about a fifth of our final energy. That's the energy we actually use. The remaining of it has not changed that quickly yet. [00:06:38] Bryony McKenzie: And where is that energy going? What is that energy fueling? [00:06:44] Peter Wood: Yeah. So it's fueling everything all around you, including materials. People forget about materials. [00:06:49] Bryony McKenzie: And when you say materials, you mean? [00:06:51] Peter Wood: I mean, I mean the pen to the building them in to the road that you traveled in this morning or industrial materials like steel and cement and so forth. Industry is about half of final use energy. Buildings are roughly against roughly about a quarter and transport is a quarter. So if you think about your daily life, you got up this morning, got out of bed and you're in a building. You went for a warm shower. You've got a gas boiler. You used a quarter of a cubic meter of gas to have warm water. Then you popped outside. Maybe you cycled to work. So you're on an aluminium bicycle frame, perhaps. Or you walked to work. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Aluminium? Aluminium? Do you mean aluminum? I mean aluminum to my American friends. Thank you. You needed all those materials. And then when you start moving, you need energy to move if you came in on the tube. And then here we are now recording a podcast in a building, yes, but we need all the power to keep everything going. So those are your components of the energy system. [00:07:57] Bryony McKenzie: Do you think people realize how integral that energy is to their daily lives? I mean, it's obviously, you know, some of the things that you've mentioned that I wouldn't even think about. [00:08:07] Peter Wood: So I don't think they do when we are doing a good job of providing it. But when, for whatever reason, that's we people in the energy business, not just Shell, but when there's a problem, people pretty quickly realize I'm very dependent on energy. So we're recording this podcast in May, and there was a power outage a couple of weeks ago in Spain. There was another power outage a couple of weeks before that at Heathrow Airport. Power outage, everything grinds to a halt. And all of a sudden, you realize what energy does for you because you can't do the things you want to do. [00:08:45] Eddie Veal: Let's turn to emissions. What does the global emissions picture look like right now? [00:08:48] Peter Wood: Yeah. So if you look at total greenhouse gas emissions, it's approaching 60 gigatons or billion tons, depending on which unit you like to use. And the energy system is about three quarters of that. The other quarter is to do with land use change, farming practices and other things, but come to energy. It's about three quarters of that. And that mix is roughly equivalent to how energy is used, sort of a quarter in transport, a quarter in buildings and a half in industry. [00:09:27] Eddie Veal: Do you have a good analogy to what 60 gigatons is or how somebody could picture the scale of that? [00:09:34] Peter Wood: Probably not a good analogy, but if you think of industries that operate at a gigaton scale. So how many industries in the world that we have? There's only a handful. So we have oil, gas and coal. They all produce more than one gigaton of product a year. You have the iron industry, iron ore, cement. I think if you added up all agricultural grains, so everything, corn, rice, you'd probably be about a gigaton. Another way of thinking about it is there are eight billion people. And we burn very roughly eight gigatons of coal a year. So that's one ton of coal per person. Okay. So it's big numbers. [00:10:23] Bryony McKenzie: And that emissions trend, where is that headed globally? [00:10:29] Peter Wood: If you sort of look over the last 20, 25 years, we've been on quite a steep upward trajectory. [00:10:36] Bryony McKenzie: Upwards because of the growth in demand. [00:10:38] Peter Wood: Because of growth in demand and particularly there was a tremendous surge of coal growth in the 2000s with the development of the economy in China. Now, what's happened sort of from about 2015, so about the last 10 years, we've been on what I'd characterized generously as an undulating plateau. Tell us more. Well, it's going up and down, but it might be going up more than it's coming down. So if you look at the most recent estimates for emissions, we are still trending up a bit. And why is that? Because we're burning that bit more fossil. But if you look at our own internal analysis and those of externals, we don't see emissions continuing to grow at a steep pace over the next 10, 20, 30 years. That there are too many new technologies that are sort of bending the curve and there are too many people who want to bend the curve. So the question is increasingly, when will emissions really genuinely plateau? And then more importantly, when will they start to decline and how steeply will they decline? What's having the most impact right now is the shift to lower carbon technologies in power generation because it's starting to happen at scale. But if you look at, say, electric vehicles, you know, here in the UK, I think it will be about 20% of new car sales are electric. In China, it will be 50%. In the United States, maybe a bit less, maybe 10%. That will sort of probably be the next wave of emission reduction, along with heating in buildings, when people start to move away from using natural gas to using heat pumps, again, with low carbon electricity. [00:12:32] Eddie Veal: So back to the electric vehicles, you said that a big spike in the emissions was from coal in China. Yes. You said that a big portion of EV sales or vehicle sales in China are electric. So does that negatively correlate with where we're trying to go in emissions or has China made some sort of improvement or change to where they get their energy? [00:12:55] Peter Wood: Yeah, I think it's a good question. You're sitting over there and I think you've perhaps got tablets and those tablets will have components that have been made in South Asia, quite possibly in China. So in effect, you have a little bit of coal sitting on your lap because there was coal energy used to make materials for the devices you've got in hand. So coal has been very important in enabling the rapid growth in solar production, solar panel production, batteries, motors and so forth. If you look at the Chinese energy system now, of course, it depends where you are in the country, but you're at a point now where driving an electric car, I think, is lower carbon than driving an internal combustion engine vehicle. Now, if you're in, I think, Inner Mongolia is one of the regions where there's a tremendous lot of coal, that equation is probably not correct. But if you're in an area where there was a lot of wind, then you were very much sort of in the money in terms of lower carbon. If you do the same sort of analysis here in Europe, somewhere like Norway with a lot of hydro or France with a lot of nuclear, driving electric cars is a bit of a no brainer. But if you were driving an electric car in Poland that's still got a reasonable amount of coal in the energy mix, then the carbon benefit is not as good. Peter, demand growth, where is it coming from? The energy system largely from now on is coming, growth is coming from east of Suez, so Asia, Indian subcontinent, South Asia, probably a bit more growth in China. Because that's where a large, very large portion of the population is sort of entering the middle class. In the energy system, you have to have a certain amount of wealth before you can really sort of harness energy consumption. But when you become so rich, which is where we are in Europe and North America, you sort of reach a saturation point. There's only so many aeroplane trips you can take a year. And you tend to have a bit more money to make things a bit more efficient in your life. So if you buy an air conditioning unit in the United States, that will be a more efficient unit than if you were to buy one perhaps in India. [00:15:17] Bryony McKenzie: I think it's really interesting about the regional differences. And I think we can perhaps kind of come back to that in a while. But I think that the point about growth and demand and that growth putting pressure on the system and the kind of growth of the overall pie. I mean, you probably would have heard already, but Dan Juergen, who's a prominent voice in the world of energy. He recently described what's happening as adding new energy, not replacing it or transforming it. Do you agree with that? Yeah. [00:15:47] Peter Wood: So, I mean, what Dan said is just factually correct. So far, we've really, at a global level, only been adding more on top of more on top of more. But if you look down at a more regional, more local level, you can start to see some transitions. So here in the UK, we were sort of the first people to start using a lot of coal in our economy. And we're going to be some of the first, not probably the first, to move away from coal. So I read a statistic earlier this year. I think Britain used about the same amount of coal last year as we did in 1600 and something. So we've really kind of pushed coal out. So what have we done? The lights are still on. Well, we're generating more electricity from gas, but also a lot more electricity from wind and some from solar. So we've seen a transition in our electricity system. You could make the same arguments in Southern California, a bit of a different equation. There wasn't as much coal, but there's a lot more renewables. So you're seeing that happen. But then in other parts of the world, perhaps earlier in the economic stages of economic development, coal is still really, really important. [00:17:05] Eddie Veal: Can you maybe help us visualize a little bit how it is different in those different parts of the world? Like we talked about, you know, that equation might be different from driving an electric vehicle in China to Norway to maybe a Poland. But just as that transition happens across the world, help us visualize that. [00:17:23] Peter Wood: Yeah. So if you sort of you sort of think about the high income countries that are part of the OECD, so Organization of Cooperation Economic Development, that's about about one sixth of the world's population. And these countries, people are now wealthy enough to be able to make choices that they can afford to drive down their emissions. So driving an electric car, moving towards electrified heating, perhaps making choices about going towards lower carbon fuels if it's not using biofuels, for example. So that's one end of the spectrum. But then you could look at the other end of the spectrum, which would be largely Africa, again, about one sixth of the world's population, 1.5 billion people. You still have vast numbers of people who don't have access to electricity. I think it's 600 million people in sub-Saharan Africa who, you know, they don't have lights in their house. And there's a very large number of that population, well north of a billion, who are still cooking on open fires. So they need to progress in energy terms from that to modern forms of energy that are more efficient. And they're also going to want to travel more. So if you look at per capita vehicle miles, here in Europe each year we all travel somewhere between 10,000 and 15,000 kilometers per person in a vehicle. So that's not airplanes, that's just in cars. In Africa that number's 500 kilometers per year per person. So my significant other is from Texas. You can drive 500 kilometers in an afternoon in Texas. Done it many times. Yeah. So at that end of the spectrum, the energy demand growth is just tremendous. And there will likely be some emissions that come with that. [00:19:25] Bryony McKenzie: And there's an acceptance that how each country goes through that transition may, the picture may look very different. It may not involve fossil fuels for some countries. They may go, leap that entirely and go to mini grids that run off solar power. Yes. [00:19:41] Peter Wood: So I think, you know, what I sort of think to myself is energy transition means different things to different people in different places. And so this idea that you described is called leapfrogging. And if you think about how telephones work, you've got a really good example of that. You know, folks in Africa are using mobile phones. They've probably never had a landline phone and they maybe never will. But you're in that situation where they've got a mobile phone with the internet on it, but they're still cooking their lunch on an open fire, which is something that, you know, somebody from Roman times will be familiar with. So you've got technologies that are 2000 years apart. So you don't necessarily get leapfrogging everywhere. [00:20:25] Bryony McKenzie: So, Peter, give us some examples of progress. Where would you point to? [00:20:29] Peter Wood: Yeah, I think I'll pick sort of two sides of the world, opposite side, Texas and China for different reasons. If you're in China today, about half of new car sales are electric. And that's sort of head and shoulders above the other major vehicle markets. And you can hear that. I haven't traveled to China for a bit, but one of my colleagues was there. And the streets in the cities are becoming noticeably quieter because an electric vehicle doesn't make as much noise. Now that means when you're crossing the street, you better pay attention. But so you're seeing a big change there and a structural change in a large market. And then the other will be Texas, where I was lucky to spend some time. And Texas is an all of the above state. It's a very large oil and gas producing state, but it's also a very large renewable energy producing state. And I believe Tesla is now manufacturing electric vehicles there. So Texas is doing not a bit of everything, but a lot of everything. And I think it's probably an example of what we'll need to do. The energy system is going to require all of these things working together for a good while before we go to, you know, 100% renewables, which some people have a vision for. [00:21:46] Eddie Veal: I guess the thing that I always struggle with, Bryony, is how as a country do you make the trade off of saying, I want to do this big renewable energy project or bring electricity, but I also need hospitals and roads and all of this infrastructure that also impacts people's lives? [00:22:03] Peter Wood: Yeah, so I mean, that's a bigger question of government policy than just energy. What you see with energy consumption, certainly in the early stages of development, that your development progress and the amount of energy that's available to you and that you can use are very closely linked. So if you don't have the energy, you won't get the hospital. Now, I'm not saying that the energy comes first, maybe the hospital comes first, but the two can't be too far apart. And so I think where countries tend to start is what resources have they got available to them around them. So come back here to the UK. Why did we get interested in coal? Because we had it. But why did we drill in the North Sea for oil and gas? Because we discovered it and we needed it. And so there are countries today around the world who want to explore for these resources and they will and they have every right to. And that will be part of their economic development. At the same time, they probably will leapfrog with solar and batteries because it's affordable, it's modular and it doesn't require a big network. So I think what you'll see, and humans do this all the time, is if there's a new idea, we just add it into the mix and keep going. [00:23:22] Bryony McKenzie: So trade offs and where you spend your money is just one of the challenges to faster progress. What do you think of the others? [00:23:30] Peter Wood: Yeah, I think maybe a way of thinking about it is to use a physics analogy, which is the three body problem. So if you study physics, two body problems are kind of simple to solve, but three body are really difficult. And so what is three body in the energy system? Well, you've got somebody who sells a piece of equipment that uses energy, a car or a refrigerator or whatever. So you've got that. And then you've got the person who buys that. And then you've got the person who sells the energy, me, Shell. Coordinating those actions is very difficult. And that can be done with government, but it can also be done with technology. And it sometimes can be done by the customer of their own instinct, but that's harder. Customers tend to go for the lowest cost solution in energy. There's not too much love for paying more just for energy. But if you have a government policy that comes in there that tries to align interests, you can move things a little faster. So back to electric vehicles. I spend a lot of time looking at electric vehicles because it's very important for our company. You need customers to start buying them because a manufacturer needs to build capacity. The customer is only going to buy it when they're confident that they can charge it. So that means companies like ours need to start building charging networks. And so you've got to sort of nudge each other along that we're building charging networks just a little bit ahead of where the customer is because they won't buy otherwise. But not too far ahead that the charging networks sitting there doing nothing. And the same for the vehicle manufacturer. You can't build a factory that's sitting there producing product that people don't want. And so that's why you see the hand of government nudging electric vehicles along with the view that as momentum builds, costs will fall, barriers will be reduced, charging networks will grow. And eventually, probably not too long in this country, another five to eight years maybe, it'll become the natural thing to do. [00:25:41] Eddie Veal: And we've talked about the change over the past 10 years a little bit in the podcast. How much of that impetus to change is government driven? And how much of that change that we've seen right now is the manufacturer trying to get the consumer to change? [00:25:58] Peter Wood: Yeah, I think if you take solar as an example, because that's really one of the biggest changes over the last 10, 15 years. You could say batteries as well, but we'll stick with solar. And the intellectual property behind it, I believe, came from sort of European, North American universities. The space race had a lot to do with solar a long time ago. That knowledge found its way onto Chinese factory floors. And it was those factory floors that drove down the cost of manufacturing through sheer scale. But they did that because they had a market. And a number of those markets were in Europe where we were prepared to subsidize the implementation. And that got the, if you like, the flywheel going. Now there's not a lot of subsidy anymore because it's cheap enough and it's scaling. So what set off as a sort of a rich country plus China sort of thing is now spinning out into the globe. So we go back to somewhere in Africa that doesn't have a lot of funding, doesn't have a big R&D capacity, doesn't have a government that's able to subsidize. You don't need to subsidize anymore. It's value for money without subsidy. [00:27:10] Eddie Veal: On that though, if it's not going quickly, does that mean that we're failing at this energy transition? [00:27:17] Peter Wood: No, I don't. Well, first of all, I'm not sure it's not going quickly. And secondly, I definitely don't think we're failing. So let's start with the failing. So, you know, we go back 10 years to the Paris Accord. If we'd been having that interview 10 years ago and we were to step into the delicate topic of temperature, we would have had to have talked about temperatures going above 4 degrees centigrade because there were very plausible trajectories that would take you there. There are not plausible trajectories that will take you to those levels of temperature today. So in the last 10 years, I really think technological improvements, policy improvements, the way the world works, we've really reduced the chances of very high temperature outcomes. But we've not equally got a trajectory to 1.5 easily yet. That's clear. So I think there has been progress. It's just not enough progress. And then you come to the question of pace. Some people perhaps thought we were moving faster than we are. And they're now a bit disappointed. You know, we're slowing down. Now, we're not slowing down. We just never picked up pace to quite the same degree. And then it depends which sectors you're looking at. If you're in the power business, things are changing quite quickly. If you're in the aviation business, not yet. So you can splice and dice this in whichever way you like. [00:28:53] Eddie Veal: Yeah. So, you know, Brian, I don't know if you get this like I do, but I've had people that just ask me, you know, isn't it simple? Why don't we just turn off oil and just switch over different energy sources? Do you hear that as well? [00:29:06] Bryony McKenzie: I hear that a lot broadly. And I'm sure Peter's heard it a lot. And, you know, the familiar question is why doesn't Shell and or any other energy company just stop producing oil and gas and just let the transition happen? [00:29:18] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:29:19] Peter Wood: Let me give a short answer and then a long answer. The short answer is we have like 45,000 tank stations. I don't know how many million people visit us every day. But they need gasoline, petrol in Europe, diesel. The same when you go for a warm shower. You've got a gas boiler. You need the gas. That's what people need today. And if we just stop, they're not going to stop going for warm showers. They're going to source it from somebody else. So the fact of the matter is we need these energy sources today. The question is how can we move it over time? Now, why does it not move as quickly as some people would think? Well, there's a useful framework from MIT, science, system, and societies. And I think that fits the energy system very well. So there's a science component to it. You can't beat thermodynamics. You've got to work with it. As a mechanical engineer, my professors will be very proud of that statement. Thank you. So you've got the science element. We've talked a bit about that now in, you know, learning how to make sustainable aviation fuels second generation. So you've got that. Then you've got the system. It's big and it's complicated. I keep talking about people having showers and driving to work in the morning. There's eight billion people on the planet and they're all part of the energy system. And we need to, you know, sort of get it to work for them. And then there's a society bit, which is, I suppose, that's the personal side of it. So there's the mechanical side and the personal. People need to make the choices. So that's why it's a slow moving machine. And if you sort of read work from people like Vaclav Smil, he's written a number of books that will sort of explain why things take time. But when you do my job, that's one thing you say, but the other side of your mouth, you've got to say, but change is coming. So Roy Armada came up with a law in computer science. You know, people tend to overestimate the impact of technology in the short run, but they underestimate it in the long run. And that's very much how it feels in the energy system. People sort of go, oh, you know, electric cars are going to change the world tomorrow. You know, all demand is going to go into decline. No, that's not true. It won't happen overnight. So it won't happen in the next five years. Could it happen in the next 25 years? Yeah, it could. And Shell's role in the energy transition. Yeah. So I sort of view sort of our role sort of over horizons or three time horizons. And so the here and now is to deliver the energy people want today in an affordable and a secure way. If you don't have your energy, your world goes backwards very, very quickly. So that's a really important job. And then how do we lower the carbon intensity of what we're delivering? So not necessarily going straight to zero, but how do we reduce carbon intensity? And we've been doing this. We look at our internal facilities. How do we make them more efficient? How do we reduce methane emissions, biofuels? Can you blend those in? Can you reduce the carbon intensity of a liquid fuel? So you've got that. That's sort of the bow wave we're coming into in some markets. And then the third thing is you've got to think much further out. How do I go to something that is zero emission? Now, some of those things are going to be electrified. And that might not be all for us. But there are going to be other areas where electricity won't cut it. And we are going to need new molecules. Or we're going to need carbon management. What do I mean by that? There is definitely a world out there where we put far more carbon into the atmosphere than is good for us. Yeah. So then we have to sort of get that carbon out and stick it back in the ground. And there's two ways. You can do that through nature or you can do that through engineering. And I think we may have a role in either or both of those. [00:33:12] Bryony McKenzie: Peter, so good to talk to you today. Thank you very much for coming in to the Energy Podcast. It was a pleasure. [00:33:17] Eddie Veal: Thank you. Thanks again, Peter, for the wonderful conversation around the energy transition. And Bryony, I'm interested, what are your takeaways from that? [00:33:26] Bryony McKenzie: So the two takeaways that I had from that conversation were firstly about growing energy demand and how that's going to be met over the course of the next decades to come. And I thought what he said about Texas was really interesting as well, about giving examples of where progress is happening. And that's somewhere that I found quite surprising that there was that mix of fossil fuel production, but with renewables as well. What did you think? [00:33:50] Eddie Veal: I mean, for me, it was really nice to hear Texas get mentioned. Because you're from Texas. [00:33:53] Bryony McKenzie: That's right. You want to talk about Texas. [00:33:55] Eddie Veal: I mean, my family's from there, so it's always nice to hear the state get mentioned. But I think what was also really interesting was Peter talking about how complex the overall system is between the governments that need to play, the consumers, but then also the producers like us and how we fit into that broader three-body problem. If you're interested in what the future of the energy system could look like, look out for our bonus episode with Peter Wood on Shell Scenarios. [00:34:21] Bryony McKenzie: And you can also drop us a rating. You can share this episode with a friend. And of course, you can subscribe to the Energy Podcast on your favorite podcast platform. And you can watch us on YouTube as well. And if you've got any comments that you'd like us to put to our guests that come on the show, of course, you can drop those in on our Shell's social media accounts as well. Remember that you can find Shell's cautionary note and references to today's episodes in the show notes. Thanks for joining. [00:34:47] Eddie Veal: See you next time. Bye. [00:34:49] Bryony McKenzie: Bye. [00:34:50] Speaker ?: .