Energy secretary repeatedly refuses to publicly back home secretary's immigration reforms

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: We can talk now to Myata Farm Bullet, who joins us now from Aberdeen. Great to have you with us. So just talk us through the decision to approve Jackdaw. [00:00:11] Zach Polanski: Yeah, so look, we have given the go-ahead to Jackdaw, which will be supplying gas to homes and businesses by the end of this month. And the key consideration in that decision was energy security and the fact that we are in the middle of an energy crisis triggered by the conflict in the Middle East that has reinforced the importance of homegrown energy. But look, I was also really clear in making this decision that this project was consistent with us meeting our climate obligations and getting to our end destination of net zero. And ultimately, as we make that transition, which we must, and we're investing billions in doing that, we are going to need gas as part of our energy mix. And if I have a choice between gas that we're producing at home that I can put conditions on to make sure it is as green as possible or importing gas and oil from abroad, I made the choice that actually we needed to have homegrown energy. And look, the critical thing, final thing I'll say is we are clear that if we are going to break our link with global fossil fuel markets, if we're going to deliver energy security and bills that are cheaper, we need to invest in renewables, we need to make sure that we're investing in nuclear as well, which is why today the Chancellor is also announcing that tax revenues from the oil and gas that will come from the North Sea will go into an NGO wealth fund that will invest in renewables and low-carbon projects that will speed up our transition to net zero. [00:01:42] Speaker 1: I just want to, because you make the point there, that you believe that you can still meet the climate objectives that you have as a government. I'm just going to read to you the Green Party statement that's come through. Zach Polanski has said, That statement there from the Green Party leader, Zach Polanski. I mean, he says you are, you've betrayed everything you ever stood for. [00:02:12] Zach Polanski: Well, no, look, I think that's complete nonsense, because we are very clear about the end destination. And by the way, this government has unlocked £100 billion of investment in clean power, that's renewables and nuclear. We have consented enough nuclear and renewable projects to power 23 million homes. [00:02:31] Speaker 1: We're talking here, this morning, about a decision you've made to approve the biggest new British oil or gas field in a decade. I mean, this is a massive climate decision as well, isn't it? [00:02:45] Zach Polanski: It is a climate decision, and I was really clear, first and foremost, that making this decision was compatible with the journey that we're on with net zero, and I'm confident in that. And look, we do understand that we've got to move away from fossil fuels, which is why we've got a manifesto commitment to ban new licensing that I will be legislating for. So we are doing everything that we can to get to that end destination. But as we do that, we also have to be realistic, and this is something that our own climate watchdog is consistent about, that we are going to need gas. And if it's a choice between gas at home, that candidly I can put conditions on to make sure it is as green as possible, or us importing oil from abroad, I think the better climate choice is to have homegrown energy that we can control. [00:03:32] Speaker 1: And Zak Plansky has also said it's only going to create 27 jobs. Is that right? [00:03:38] Zach Polanski: It will create 27 jobs. It will secure 273 jobs. But look, that was not the primary consideration. The truth is that we are in a volatile world at the moment. We're in a world where we're seeing the crisis in the Middle East, the impact on energy reverberating on families here. We've got to secure our own energy security, and that does mean homegrown. And that is about this project, but it is also about the billions that we're investing in homegrown renewables and homegrown nuclear. That's the key point. And then critically, we're using the investment, the revenues that will come from oil and gas in the North Sea to speed up the transition, which is a common sense thing to do when we all care about getting to the end destination. [00:04:20] Speaker 1: Now, look, I know you're not going to give me a decision today, obviously, on Rosebank, which is the other big field, mainly oil, say, more controversial, higher emissions. Can you give me a little bit of guidance on when we're going to expect it? Are we talking about, you know, by the end of the year for a decision on Rosebank? [00:04:39] Zach Polanski: Well, look, you're right to point out that it's a very different project, and it's important that I don't prejudice the decision and we make decisions on a case-by-case basic. But, look, Jackdaw is a gas field that essentially caters for the UK market, so it's gas that goes into our homes and businesses here. Rosebank is an oil field that is predominantly about exports, so they are different, and I'll have to look at it in its own right. We're trying to do this as quickly as possible, partly because, you know, every time I come on the news, I'm asked about these two fields. Look, I want to be having a conversation about the stuff that really matters to people, which is bills and energy bills and affordability and how we get that down, which is about how we make sure we break the link with global fossil fuel markets. It's also about how we ensure... Can you give us a rough idea? [00:05:28] Speaker 1: Are we talking, like, you know, after the next election? Are we talking about this year? Are we talking about next year? Is there any time frame you can give us at all? [00:05:36] Zach Polanski: Well, so, the team at the moment are going through all the evidence that came out of the consultation. I want to make that decision as quickly as possible. My view is that, look, we just need to make decisions, we need to move on, we need to get on with delivery. So it's not something I'm going to be sitting on. We'll try and do it as quickly as we can. OK, all right. [00:05:52] Speaker 1: I just want to ask you about immigration reform, if I may, because there's been an awful lot, as you'll be aware of, talk about what your own view is on some of the reforms being proposed by Shibana Mahmood. So just to be crystal clear, do you support plans for people to have to have lived in the UK for 15 years before they can get permanent residency? Do you support those plans? [00:06:16] Zach Polanski: Well, look, the first thing I'd say, because there's been a lot of speculation, look, Shibana's got a really tough job. And actually, I think a Home Secretary that is getting a grip on small boats, something, crossings, that's something that all of us want to see end. We are seeing the lowest number of small boat crossings for six years. Can I just come in? Can I just come in? Because the problem is, [00:06:35] Speaker 1: we only have a limited amount of time in the interview, and I really just want a really straight answer. Do you support plans for people to live in the UK for 15 years before they get permanent residency? [00:06:45] Zach Polanski: Well, look, we have got to reform our immigration system. And my view is that we need a system that is based on the principle of compassion, contribution. And so there is a package of reforms. The Home Secretary has been consulting on this. She's looking at the range of responses, and she will come out with the measures that we take forward. But the key thing I would say is no one, no one can look at our immigration system. I say this as someone that came to this country as a refugee and not believe that it's broken and not believe that we need to fundamentally reform it. But our principles has to be a system where we've got control, but ultimately a system that when people do come to this country, they are able to integrate, they are able to contribute, and that we both respect but also value that contribution. [00:07:27] Speaker 1: OK, you haven't in any part of that answer said that you agree with these reforms. Collective responsibility, this is the definition on the government website. Decisions made by the Cabinet are binding on all members of the government. This means if a minister disagrees with the government policy, he or she must still publicly support it. So I'm going to ask you a third time, do you support plans for people to have to live in the UK for 15 years before they can get permanent residency? [00:07:53] Zach Polanski: Well, look, I support reforms that says that people have to contribute and make a contribution to this country in order to get citizenship. We are consulting on the package of reforms that we've put forward, and the Home Secretary, as you can imagine, having looked at all the responses, will set out what the final position is. [00:08:13] Speaker 1: Do you support the plans or not? It's the fourth time I've asked you now. Normally I hate these things where you ask the same question every and every again. [00:08:19] Zach Polanski: I absolutely... So I absolutely support the plans to reform our immigration system. It is broken and we need to reform that. I'm asking you something [00:08:27] Speaker 1: super specific here. Do you support plans for people to live in the UK for 15 years before you get permanent residency? Do you support that? [00:08:34] Zach Polanski: So what I would say... What I would say is the Home Secretary is consulting on those plans and she will set out the government's final position. [00:08:42] Speaker 1: You can't say whether you support that or not. [00:08:46] Zach Polanski: The Home Secretary is consulting. Look, we absolutely need to reform our immigration system. I support the reforms and, by the way, it is not easy to reform our immigration system. So I 100% back Shamada Mahmood and everything she's trying to do. But there are a package of reforms. We are consulting in the way that government always does and the Home Secretary, rightly having looked at all the responses to the consultation, will set out the final package that ultimately will do the job of reforming our immigration system based on the principle of control, which we absolutely must do, but critically, a system that ensures that people make a contribution and when they make a contribution they are integrated into our communities so that we can have diverse communities like my one in Peckham in which people can live together and can ensure that they are making the contribution to get to the country and the society that we want to. [00:09:35] Speaker 1: I know you've got to go but I think from what you've said it's pretty clear that you don't support waiting 15 years for permanent residency so I'm just going to give you one chance to correct that if that's not your view. [00:09:46] Zach Polanski: Don't put words in my mouth. The key point is we are consulting... I'm literally not and that's what I'm saying. [00:09:52] Speaker 1: This is your chance to correct that if that's not your view because this is the impression you've given so if you don't think that tell us now. [00:09:59] Zach Polanski: We are consulting on the package of proposals that were put forward. The Home Secretary is looking at the consultation and she will set out our final position but what I absolutely back Shabana on is the need to reform our immigration system because it is fundamentally broken and I also fundamentally support the principles that we've got to control our borders because everyone expects us to do that and critically that we have to have a system in which people contribute and when they contribute they are able to become citizens and they are able to be integrated into our community that is an immigration system that makes sense that is an immigration system that will build public consent and she's absolutely right to try and deliver that immigration system. [00:10:37] Speaker 1: Okay, thank you very much. Great to have you on the programme today. Miata Fonbola speaking to us there.