Did the Defense Just Change This Murder Trial? NM v. Apodaca

[00:00:00] Tony DeWitt: Well, it seems that the defense saved its best for last, or at least close to last, because the cross-examination of KIERA was a bit more exciting than any of their previous cross-examinations. Let's talk about it. Hi, Tony DeWitt here. I am a retired Missouri attorney who has now un-retired so that I can bring you some commentary on trials and that sort of thing. Because I deal generally with legal topics, I'm not offering any legal advice, and I'm not intending to form any lawyer-client relationships with any of you. I'm simply presenting some information. I am a content creator. I am not currently practicing law, although I do maintain my license in the state of Missouri. This is a trial channel, and today we're discussing a trial. In fact, this is what we're discussing today. Keep in mind, the defense doesn't have to prove anything. All they have to do is create reasonable doubt. And reasonable doubt can be created from a number of different things. One of them is mendacity, when someone repeatedly changes their story, when they lie under oath. All of that, that goes a long way toward establishing, to some degree, that they are an unreliable reporter of events. And then, when their testimony doesn't square with physical evidence, that's another thing that creates reasonable doubt. And there were a number of things that came up in the cross-examination that absolutely detail some degree of reasonable doubt. At least in my mind. Whether it's enough to push it over the hurdle and save him from conviction, I don't know. But they did do a good job of hitting the witness on things that she was clearly very vulnerable on. And it appears to me that they waited for this opportunity to really bring out the big guns. Let's start with this clip. [00:02:20] Speaker 2: You've had two other interviews. Do you recall those? One with another one here at the courthouse with Detective Vigil? Yes. And then another one with some of Isaac's attorneys? Yes. And were you fully honest in those interviews? [00:02:37] Speaker 3: Not fully. [00:02:38] Speaker 2: What do you mean by that? [00:02:40] Speaker 3: I had, I was scared to say that, I said that Isaac had swung first, but in reality he just handed me the sword. [00:02:54] Speaker 2: So Isaac Apodaca, well, did Isaac Apodaca take any swings using the sword at Grace's body? As far as I'm aware, no. You should have clarified, in your presence. In my presence, no. [00:03:07] Tony DeWitt: Did you notice that, as far as I'm aware, Dodge in there, the prosecutor came back and repaired it by saying, well, not that you saw, basically. And that was a good thing for her to do because the defense would have attacked pretty quickly on that. But that was at the end of the direct examination. In fact, here is the actual end of the direct examination. [00:03:32] Speaker 2: Kara, have you been truthful today about your role in the murder of Grace Jennings? Yes. Pass the witness. [00:03:37] Speaker ?: Pass the witness. Pass the witness. [00:03:37] Speaker 4: Pass the witness. [00:03:38] Speaker ?: Pass the witness. [00:03:38] Speaker 4: Pass the witness. [00:03:39] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:03:39] Speaker 4: Good morning, Kara. Good morning. How are you? [00:03:44] Speaker 3: I'm okay. Good. [00:03:45] Speaker 4: Okay. Kara, you did multiple interviews in this case, as you discussed with Ms. Haley, the prosecutor, correct? [00:03:54] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:03:54] Speaker 4: Okay. And one was initially with Detective Javier Beal on October 29, 2022, correct? Yes. The date of the incident? You had no attorney present then, correct? [00:04:09] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:04:10] Speaker 4: Okay. And you were charged with murder after that interview? [00:04:14] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:04:16] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:04:17] Speaker 4: The other interview was with your attorney and the prosecutors in this case on October 1, 2024, correct? [00:04:30] Speaker 3: I believe so. [00:04:32] Speaker 4: Okay. Okay. Based on your cooperation in that interview, you entered the plea agreement that Ms. Murphy showed you on February 11, 2025, correct? Yes. [00:04:44] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:04:46] Speaker 4: Okay. After your plea agreement, you did a pretrial interview with your attorneys, Mr. Rule and Mr. Clark, the prosecutor and members of Isaac's defense team, which would include myself and Mr. David Meek, correct? [00:05:04] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:05:05] Speaker 4: Okay. And then as part of your agreement, you entered a guilty plea, correct? Yes. Yes. Okay. And you understand that your testimony here today could affect whether the state actually recommends that sentence in the plea, correct? [00:05:36] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:05:37] Speaker 4: Okay. Now, you have every reason to minimize your own responsibility here today, correct? [00:05:44] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:05:45] Speaker 4: Okay. And you have every reason to maximize Isaac's responsibility, correct? [00:05:52] Speaker 3: I understand that. [00:05:53] Speaker 4: Yes or no? [00:05:54] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:05:55] Speaker 4: The more blame you place on Isaac, the better it is for you, correct? [00:06:00] Speaker 2: Objection, Your Honor. Come on up. [00:06:04] Tony DeWitt: Now that objection was sustained, but as I often say, on cross-examination, it's not the answer that matters. It's the question. And all of a sudden, the prosecution doesn't want her to admit that it's better for her if she places more blame on Isaac. So with that question, there's that little niggling doubt that creeps into the mind in the back thinking, yeah, that doesn't sound exactly right. But it actually worked out really well that they objected and that the judge sustained it. [00:06:41] Speaker 4: Now, your story has evolved or changed between the three different interviews that you did, [00:06:50] Speaker ?: correct? [00:06:51] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:06:52] Speaker 4: Okay. You became more accusatory of Isaac as time progressed, correct, Kara? [00:06:58] Speaker 3: Seeing what happened? Yes. [00:07:00] Speaker 4: Okay. And in fact, in your first interview when you didn't have attorneys and you were just meeting with Detective Vito, you never said anything about Isaac handling a sword, correct? Correct. [00:07:15] Tony DeWitt: Now, keep in mind that was close in time to the actual event. Her memory should have been crystal clear at that point as to what she did and why she did it and who else was involved. And she doesn't say anything about the defendant on trial now. So, again, they're doing a good job of building up some ideas that may point toward reasonable doubt. [00:07:41] Speaker 4: Okay. And the interview, again, was done without an attorney present, correct? [00:07:45] Speaker 3: That was correct. [00:07:46] Speaker 4: Okay. Your second interview was done shortly before you took the plea in this case, correct? [00:07:51] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:07:52] Speaker 4: Okay. That interview, again, was done with your attorneys present, correct? [00:07:56] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:07:57] Speaker 4: Okay. How far is your mom's house from the detached garage you were staying in? [00:08:06] Speaker 3: It was about 15 feet. [00:08:09] Speaker 4: 15? [00:08:10] Speaker 3: 15 feet-ish. [00:08:11] Speaker 4: Okay. So, maybe, you know, I guess it's speculated, but 15 feet. So, it wasn't very far, right? Yeah. It's not too far. You could hear what was going on in her house? [00:08:19] Speaker 3: Not really. [00:08:20] Speaker 4: Sometimes? No. If somebody was screaming? Yeah. [00:08:24] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:08:25] Speaker 4: I wouldn't think so, but... Okay. And if she was in her house, she could hear somebody screaming in your detached garage? [00:08:31] Speaker 3: She usually had the TV on loud enough that she wouldn't be able to hear anything. [00:08:34] Speaker 4: Okay. [00:08:35] Tony DeWitt: Notice how he dropped one line of questioning and moved to another. Rather, spontaneously, sort of, didn't seem to go with what he was talking about before. Did he maybe change to a different page of his outline? I don't think so. I think that was strategic to throw her off. And we'll see why in just a second. [00:08:57] Speaker 4: Now, you have stated that you had strong feelings for Grace, correct? [00:09:03] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:09:04] Speaker 4: Okay. And you don't believe that Grace ever showed any real feelings back towards you? [00:09:13] Speaker 3: When we were younger, she had feelings back for me. But as we grew, I don't think she had any feelings anymore. [00:09:20] Speaker 4: Okay. And that was a source of discomfort for you? A bit. [00:09:24] Speaker 3: That bothered you? [00:09:25] Speaker 4: Okay. And Grace was cheating on you a lot? Oh, yeah. [00:09:30] Tony DeWitt: Spurned lover? Jealousy? A motive, perhaps, besides what Isaac may have put in her head? Again, brick by brick. You know, all the cross-examinations prior to this, they built up a little wall with bricks and the prosecution came and knocked him right down. I don't know how they knocked that down. That seems to me to be a pretty important and relevant consideration in whether or not she acted independently or whether she was under mind control from Isaac. [00:10:04] Speaker 4: Okay. Now, another issue, how much were you drinking that day? [00:10:12] Speaker 3: I had a pint. I'm not sure exactly how much I drank. Okay. It was within that. Were you drinking a little? [00:10:21] Speaker 4: Were you drinking a lot? I wasn't drinking all that much. [00:10:24] Speaker 3: It was just a lack of sleep that was, like, not helping. [00:10:29] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:10:30] Speaker 4: Would you have drank a whole bottle and a half of Jack? Jack Daniels? Tennessee whiskey? [00:10:39] Speaker 3: I honestly don't remember. [00:10:41] Speaker 4: Okay. Would you have said that at some point? [00:10:44] Speaker 3: I think I did. [00:10:45] Tony DeWitt: Now, they refreshed her recollection and essentially she wound up having to admit, yeah, that's what she said in one of the interviews. And then we pick up on that thread. [00:10:56] Speaker 4: Over what period of time did you drink the bottle and a half of Jack that day? [00:11:06] Speaker 3: Um, I'm not sure, honestly. Okay. [00:11:10] Speaker 4: Do you remember roughly how much you weighed back then? [00:11:13] Speaker 3: It was about 160 at the time. [00:11:16] Speaker 4: Okay. So you don't remember how long you've been drinking for that day, correct? [00:11:23] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:11:24] Speaker 4: But it was that day? [00:11:25] Speaker 3: It was a mix of that day and the night before. Okay. [00:11:28] Speaker 4: So you're drinking into the night and into the day? [00:11:32] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:11:33] Speaker 4: Okay. [00:11:34] Tony DeWitt: She's 160 pounds and she's drinking a fifth and a half of Jack Daniels over the course of probably 18 hours. It's no wonder she can't remember anything. And it's no wonder she may have hallucinated things. Alcohol, particularly in somebody who has a slight build, and she has a very slight build, doesn't require a lot to put you into unconsciousness. And, you know, even though she probably had developed a tolerance to it to some degree, she had to be under pretty significant intoxication during all of the things that were going on here. And this makes the likelihood that somebody on the prosecution or on her defense team put the idea into her mind, like, hey, let's blame Isaac. Let's say he manipulated you. And that's when all of the changes in the testimony came about. Again, that's speculation on my part. I don't know. But if you're drinking that much, it's pretty reasonable to believe you might not have a good memory. And what memory you do have might be conflated with all kinds of imaginary things that could have happened to you in your drunken state. So, again, another brick in the wall of reasonable doubt. [00:13:03] Speaker 4: Well, your testimony here today is that Isaac handed you the sword, correct? [00:13:06] Tony DeWitt: Yes, he handed me the sword. [00:13:07] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:13:09] Speaker 4: Now, in the interview prior to taking the plea agreement with your attorneys and the state, you had stated something completely different, correct? [00:13:23] Speaker 3: I don't remember. [00:13:24] Speaker 4: Okay. You would have stated that Isaac had swung at Kiara, correct? [00:13:30] Speaker 3: Use the wrong name again. I'm sorry? You used my name. [00:13:34] Speaker 4: Grace, excuse me. Yes. I don't like you. You said that Isaac had swung at Grace, correct? [00:13:40] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:41] Speaker 4: Okay. And in the police interview, you didn't say that Isaac handled the sword at all, correct? [00:13:47] Speaker 3: I don't recall. [00:13:50] Speaker 4: In the pre-trial interview, you stated that Isaac had did this while you were in the shower, correct? [00:14:02] Speaker 3: Well, there was something that happened while I was in the shower. I'm not sure exactly what, because her body moved and so did the sword. [00:14:09] Speaker 4: But you have no way of actually knowing this, correct? [00:14:12] Speaker 3: Just that it moved, because I went, because I saw it. [00:14:18] Speaker 4: Now, you had no coaching before the interview you initially did with Detective Behill, correct? [00:14:23] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:14:24] Speaker 4: Okay. But you were prepped by your defense attorneys before doing the interview with the state before you took the plea agreement? [00:14:36] Speaker 2: Objection, Your Honor. Approach. [00:14:40] Tony DeWitt: Generally, you can't ask a witness what their counsel told them or said to them, because that's protected by attorney-client privilege. And unless the client needs it to exonerate themselves, it's off limits. So I understand the state's objection here, but it doesn't go real well for them, which I found interesting. [00:15:06] Speaker 4: So you were prepped for the interview that you had with the state, with the prosecutors, and your defense attorneys before you took the plea agreement, correct? [00:15:18] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:15:21] Tony DeWitt: She did not want to admit that. Did you notice the long pause between the question and the answer? The jury noticed that, too. And, again, it's just one more brick in that wall of reasonable doubt. [00:15:36] Speaker 4: So what exactly did you want Grace to say sorry for when you were over her? [00:15:42] Speaker 3: For, so that I believed happened at the time. [00:15:47] Speaker 4: Okay. Now, you didn't have to stay with Isaac Abedaka to have a place to stay, correct? [00:15:58] Speaker 3: No. [00:15:59] Speaker 4: Okay. You, in fact, stayed in your mom's detached garage, correct? Yes. Okay. But Isaac needed a place to stay when he was staying with you, correct? [00:16:11] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:16:12] Speaker 4: And, in fact, you would kick him out frequently, correct? No. Okay. Isaac wasn't wearing a bodysuit or anything that day, correct? [00:16:23] Speaker 3: Not that I'm aware of. [00:16:25] Speaker 4: Okay. Now, you had also previously said that you hadn't slept for four days prior, correct? Correct. Okay. How do you stay awake for four days? [00:16:37] Speaker 3: Red Bull. [00:16:39] Speaker 4: That's a lot of Red Bull. [00:16:40] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:16:42] Speaker 4: Okay. Could you just have been imagining things? [00:16:47] Tony DeWitt: No. And if I'm on the jury right now, I'm having a hard time believing that she couldn't have just imagined some things, given the lack of sleep, the ingestion of all that alcohol, and her inability to recall details that might very well matter in this case. So, that was a really good question. It was a very well done examination, and I think he's making some inroads here. [00:17:16] Speaker 4: Explain to the jury what catfishing means. [00:17:18] Speaker 3: I just created a false account to message her and, in my case, annoy the crap out of her. [00:17:25] Speaker 4: Okay. And how did you do this to Grace? [00:17:29] Speaker 3: I created a fake account with a fake name, fake picture, and tried to get under her skin. [00:17:36] Speaker 4: So, you were trying to coerce her? [00:17:38] Speaker 3: I was trying to annoy her. No. Bug her. Upset her. [00:17:42] Speaker 4: Thank you. You were being vindictive? [00:17:44] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:17:46] Speaker 4: You've also -- back to the stuff about the -- what you've been seeing or observing or feeling in the jail. You would feel Isaac's -- you say that you would feel Isaac's energy in the jail, correct? [00:17:57] Speaker 3: I don't see how that counts. Can you explain -- explain what you mean? [00:18:04] Speaker 4: It's my question. Kiara, Kiara, so all I'm asking you is, you have stated that you would feel Isaac's energy in the jail, correct? [00:18:12] Speaker 3: Well, he was there in the jail as well. So, yes. I don't know. [00:18:17] Speaker ?: I don't know. I don't know. [00:18:18] Speaker 4: Maybe you're approaching her. [00:18:19] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:18:24] Tony DeWitt: So, it's clear she has a vindictive streak. She's very upset with this woman. And it goes beyond just him manipulating her, apparently, because he certainly didn't manipulate her to do that. And I'm having a difficult time processing the state's case now, primarily because a lot of what they've put up may not necessarily reflect reality, because they count heavily on her testimony to establish his control. But now we're learning that independently, she had a lot of anger that she hadn't controlled or managed or gotten over. [00:19:06] Speaker 4: All right. Good afternoon, Kiara. You have stated that you have a crazy side that comes out when you're drunk, correct? Yeah. [00:19:17] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:19:18] Speaker 4: And you stated that you would call this personality Abby? [00:19:23] Speaker 3: Isaac started calling her that, so I started calling her that. Okay. [00:19:26] Speaker 4: And, um, you also stated that you have several different personalities, correct? Yes or no? [00:19:33] Speaker 3: I do not have several personalities. I thought I did at the time. Okay. [00:19:37] Speaker 4: But I just said yes or no, but you believed previously that you had several different personalities, correct? Yes. Okay. [00:19:44] Tony DeWitt: Multiple personalities? As my wife would say, Patsy Klein wrote a song about that. [00:19:51] Speaker 4: Now, you stated that Isaac had the dagger, correct? Multiple times? [00:19:58] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:19:59] Speaker 4: Okay. So his hands and fingers touched the dagger according to you? Yes. Okay. You also stated that Isaac pushed down on the dagger with his palm, correct? Yes. Okay. You also stated that Isaac handed you the sword, correct? [00:20:16] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:20:17] Speaker 4: So Isaac picked up the sword with his hands, correct? Yes. So Isaac's hands and fingers were on the sword, correct? Yes. Okay. You testified that you saw the sword on the table, correct? [00:20:31] Speaker 3: When I came back, yes. Okay. [00:20:33] Speaker 4: So you didn't leave the sword on the table, correct? [00:20:37] Speaker 3: No, I did not. [00:20:38] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:20:39] Tony DeWitt: Now, why are we talking about the sword and the knives and that kind of stuff like this, about what Isaac might have touched? Well, I don't recall the DNA evidence right now, but I'm guessing that his DNA isn't on any of those things, and neither are his fingerprints. So if he did these things, even his palm print would have been on the hilt of the, I guess not the hilt, but the butt of the knife. So, you know, it's, again, he has done a really good job of manufacturing a little bit of doubt here on Chiara's story. Will it be enough? I don't know. But this is the first cross-examination that I have seen in this case where they've actually made some headway, and they've made a lot, I think, on Chiara. So that's what I have for you today. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you watching. Catch me down here again tomorrow. Thanks for watching my video. I really appreciate it. And today, as you go about your business, would you try to do just one kind thing for somebody? It doesn't have to be a big thing. You can open a door for somebody who has their arms full. You could buy somebody a Coke. You could let the manager know when somebody did a really good job for you at the grocery store, or at Walmart, or someplace else. There are all kinds of things we can do to make people's lives better. And a lot of times, people will always remember to go to the manager and complain. I very seldom remember to go to the manager and say, "Hey, you know that guy over there in produce is top notch." And I think it's really important to do that, because I want to make the world a better place. I know you're here, probably, because you want to make the world a better place. So let's do that. Now let's be respectful of one another, and thank God we live in the greatest country in the free world. I do think that the good folks at YouTube have a few things they want to show you up here that you might be interested in. And if you are, I'd appreciate you clicking. Thanks. Have a great day.